The Game Changing Attorney Podcast with Michael Mogill

If you want justice to change, you cannot treat equality like a slogan. You have to fight for it like it is personal. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Ben Crump, renowned civil rights attorney and founder of Ben Crump Law, to unpack what it really means to pursue equality inside a system shaped by power, precedent, and bias. Ben explains why progress is often incremental, why the biggest injustice is not always what makes the news, and why lawyers have a responsibility to speak truth to power even when it is unpopular. This conversation is a reminder that influence is only valuable when you use it to protect people who do not have any. Here's what you'll learn: Why racism and discrimination in America are rooted in economics, and how that shapes the fight for justice today How to handle death threats, public attacks, and the personal cost of taking on high-profile civil rights cases What it means to use your legal education to speak truth to power, even when it's controversial, unpopular, or dangerous If you have a legal education, you have a responsibility to make the world a better place. This episode will remind you why. ---- Show Notes: 02:53 — Ben explains the sacrifice behind the work, and why it feels like the news never stops giving him another family to serve. 03:55 — Ben talks about “incremental progress,” why change never happens overnight, and why cases like George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery still matter as proof that accountability is possible. 05:39 — Michael asks where the real problem begins; Ben says it starts with whether people truly believe the Declaration of Independence, then explains how he tests that belief in jury selection. 11:53 — Ben shares how he stays optimistic, first through his own upbringing and family, then through a surprising source: what law school taught him about “precedent.” 16:42 — Ben tells the story of his mother and grandmother, the power of education, and how Brown v. Board and Thurgood Marshall shaped his mission when he was only nine years old. 21:20 — Michael brings up the backlash and threats; Ben explains why he accepts the risk, what “influence” is for, and why speaking truth to power is part of the job. 25:50 — Ben gives a practical answer to “But what can I do?” in the face of injustice 29:13 — Ben reflects on being a “rent lawyer,” and why the small cases and hard seasons are what sharpen the skills you will rely on later. ---- Links & Resources: Ben Crump Law Civil: Ben Crump (Netflix Documentary) Thurgood Marshall Frederick Douglass Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 297. Ken Feinberg — Behind the 9/11 Compensation Fund: Navigating Tragedy & Complex Mediation 281. Nick Rowley — Brutal Honesty in Action: The Key to Legal Victory 209. Mark Lanier — A Lasting Legacy of Justice, Truth, and Billion-Dollar Verdicts

A great culture means nothing if your business isn’t winning. And being busy doesn’t mean you’re effective. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill tackle three questions that expose tensions most firm owners feel but rarely address head-on. The first reveals how prioritizing happiness over performance can quietly cap your growth, the second explores the guilt that comes when success requires less hustle than you think it should, and the third shows what happens when partnership paralysis becomes more comfortable than forward movement. This conversation unpacks the difference between a strong culture and a stagnant one, why working fewer hours might mean you built something right, and why being right matters far less than being willing to move. Here's what you'll learn: Why a culture where everyone gets along can still be the wrong culture for scaling, and how to tell the difference How to shift from the time-and-effort economy to the results-and-judgment economy as your firm matures Why partnership gridlock reveals misalignment on something deeper than the decision itself If your firm feels stuck, scattered, or slower than it should be, this episode will help you identify what’s really holding you back. ---- 03:00 — Why the best decisions often come from saying yes to the experience, not the timing 06:22 — When a “great culture” starts quietly holding your business back 06:42 — The uncomfortable truth about why you can’t control your team’s happiness 08:09 — Why winning is the foundation of every truly strong culture 10:37 — What it really means when your business improves as you work less 12:11 — Why letting go of hours worked is necessary to actually scale 15:13 — Why being “right” matters less than simply moving forward 17:00 — The real cost of being stuck in indecision with a business partner ---- Links & Resources: Death Stranding Hideo Kojima Ratatouille ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 436. AMMA — The Bigger The Firm, The Bigger The Problems 395. AMMA — Why Consensus Slows Growth and How to Fix It 177. AMMA – Ask Michael Mogill Anything: Energy, Effectiveness, and Entrepreneurial Guilt

What separates the firms that scale from the ones that stay stuck? In this special mashup episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with the four Firm of the Year winners from the 2025 Game Changers Summit. Laura dePaz Cabrera of dePaz Cabrera Immigration Law, Koro Khamo of Khamo Law, John Richmond of Richmond Vona, and David Meyer of Meyer Wilson Werning each share what it really takes to build a firm that grows without burning you out in the process. From learning to let go of control to betting the farm on the right technology, this episode reveals the mindset shifts and strategic decisions that turned their practices into powerhouses. Here's what you'll learn: Why staying small is often the riskiest decision you can make, and how scaling protects your future How to build systems that run without you, so your firm can thrive even when you're not in the room Why culture is non-negotiable at every stage If you want to build a firm that scales, this episode will show you what some of the best in the business actually did to get there. ---- Show Notes: 5:14 — Laura DePaz Cabrera on building a human-centered immigration practice 16:08 — Why the outcome must always be tempered by the human impact 19:01 — Laura describes the culture of relentless pursuit of excellence 27:35 — Koro Khamo on scaling from startup to Premier Firm of the Year 40:26 — How Koro uses 11-year forecasting and AI to drive growth 44:29 — Why staying in place means falling behind in today's market 49:42 — The overpaid employee trap: why solos need to think bigger 54:09 — John Richmond on scaling from two people to 50+ in six years 1:06:24 — How leadership evolves as you scale from six to eight figures 1:07:41 — Defending culture at all costs, even when it means losing high performers 1:14:49 — Richmond Vona's approach to AI integration and change management 1:16:22 — David Meyer on transforming from chaos to intentional growth 1:24:25 — The catalyst that shifted Meyer Wilson from technical mastery to business excellence 1:32:25 — How David learned to let go and trust his leadership team 1:36:50 — Training for an Ironman as proof of a self-managing firm ---- Links & Resources: dePaz Cabrera Immigration Law Khamo Law Richmond Vona Meyer Wilson Werning Alexander Shunnarah Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 410. The Firm of the Future Won't Wait for You to Catch Up 376. Best of AMMA — Brand-Building Secrets Your Competitors Will Hate You For 308. AMMA — Overcoming Doubt: Turning Fear into Fuel

The people you surround yourself with either push you forward or quietly hold you back. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill answer three listener questions that all point to the same tension: leaders who've scaled past seven figures often struggle to recalibrate the people they listen to, the way they make decisions, and the balance between intuition and expertise. This conversation reveals what happens when your growth outpaces your circle and how to fix it before it stalls your momentum. Here's what you'll learn: How to recognize when you've outgrown your peer group and what to do about it Why seeking too much input creates paralysis instead of clarity When to trust your instincts as a founder versus when to defer to expert advice If you want to scale without stalling, this episode will show you where the friction is coming from and how to fix it. ---- 01:52 — Michael explains why being in shape with kids is one of the biggest flexes as an adult 05:55 — Jessica reveals her new hobby that has taken over the kitchen 09:55 — How to manage people who are more experienced in their domain without just deferring to everything they say 12:40 — The game tape method: why reviewing the thought process behind decisions is the fastest way to improve leadership 14:02 — Why asking more people for advice often leads to more confusion instead of clarity 15:12 — What separates great leaders: the ability to decide and act despite uncertainty 17:54 — Why CFOs aren’t CEOs, and what that reveals about the role of financial expertise in growth decisions ---- Links & Resources: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Resident Evil Requiem Call of Duty ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 428. AMMA — What To Do When You Outgrow Your Circles 407. AMMA — Why Playing It Safe Is the Most Dangerous Strategy 395. AMMA — Why Consensus Slows Growth and How to Fix It

Most negotiators spend years perfecting their argument. Chris Voss spent his career learning how to make the other side feel heard. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, CEO of The Black Swan Group, and bestselling author of Never Split the Difference. With decades of high-stakes experience negotiating with criminals, terrorists, and executives alike, Chris challenges what most attorneys think they know about winning and explains why the collaborative negotiator almost always beats the combative one. Here's what you'll learn: Why "win-win" is one of the clearest signals that someone is about to take advantage of you Why pushing back only when it's justified builds more credibility than fighting every point Why negotiation is a perishable skill and what small-stakes daily practice actually looks like for someone who does this at the highest level Getting better at negotiation doesn't start with your next big case. It starts with the next conversation you have. ---- Show Notes: 2:32 — Since his first appearance on the podcast, Chris has been busy: a documentary, a book on empathy, and a bourbon brand built around dealmaking. 5:11 — Michael asks Chris to draw the line between how negotiation is portrayed on TV versus what effective negotiation actually looks like in practice, particularly for attorneys. 5:32 — Chris tells the story of a lawyer who trained under him as an FBI intern, became a practicing attorney, and out-earned every associate at his firm by refusing to be combative. 10:06 — Chris explains why a combative approach neurochemically triggers defensiveness in the other party, lengthening deals and eroding trust over time. 23:18 — Chris defines tactical empathy and cognitive empathy, explains why sociopaths are paradoxically the best at reading others, and describes how neuroscience backs the collaborative approach. 32:13 — Michael and Chris discuss negotiating in a digital world, why most people communicate too much at once, and why in-person interaction remains irreplaceable for building real relationships. 36:32 — Negotiation is a perishable skill. Chris shares how Tiger Woods approached practice and explains how he stays sharp by reading strangers in low-stakes everyday moments. 39:39 — Chris compares Patrick Mahomes and Kirk Cousins to illustrate the difference between ambition and perfectionism, and what that means for how people handle losing. 45:56 — Michael and Chris dig into what it actually takes to maintain a competitive edge over time ---- Links & Resources: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel Same as Ever by Morgan Housel Collaborative Fund Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Scott Galloway Chris Rock Warren Buffett ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 441. The Psychology Behind Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen 297. Ken Feinberg — Behind the 9/11 Compensation Fund: Navigating Tragedy & Complex Mediation 5. Chris Voss — FBI Negotiation Tactics for Business and Life

Most firm owners are more uncertain than they let on. The ones performing at the highest level just have better frameworks to keep moving forward anyway. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill field three listener questions that circle the same uncomfortable admission: most firm owners are less certain than they look, and the people watching them aren't sure what to make of it. Michael gets into what it actually means to build a firm worth owning, how to read whether a firm is succeeding on skill or circumstance, and what it really takes to step out of someone else's shadow and lead on your own terms. Here's what you'll learn: Why feeling like you're winging it is not a sign something is wrong, and what success as a firm owner actually requires How to tell the difference between a firm owner making skilled decisions and one who has just been lucky Why the best leadership style is the one that produces results, regardless of what it looks like from the outside These questions come up privately all the time. This episode is where they finally get answered. ---- 01:48 – Michael opens with a Disney story that turns into a lesson on persistence and refusing to accept arbitrary limits 10:50 – Michael defines what it actually means to be a successful business owner 11:56 – Michael explains why most entrepreneurs feel like they are making it up as they go 13:28 – The difference between a business that depends on you and one that actually runs without you 15:17 – How to tell the difference between a lucky firm owner and a truly skilled one 15:48 – Why great leaders rely on decision-making frameworks instead of gut instinct alone 23:12 – Michael explains why leadership is about driving results, not being liked ---- Links & Resources: Roy McIlroy Tim Cook Steve Jobs Andy Jassy Jeff Bezos Amazon Web Services ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 443. Poker Face: The Framework for Navigating Professional Uncertainty with Tiffany Michelle 407. AMMA — Why Playing It Safe Is the Most Dangerous Strategy 203. AMMA — How to Know If You Are NOT Cut Out for Entrepreneurship

Kindra Hall, bestselling author and strategic storytelling expert, shows how leaders can turn personal and customer narratives into powerful business tools. She explains the four essential business stories, why many testimonials fail, and how to spot and rewrite the internal stories holding you back. Short, practical, and focused on making stories memorable and strategic.

The hardest part of building something real isn't the work. It's waiting for the work to matter. In this AMMA episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill explore one of the least discussed truths about business growth: the lag between effort and result. From the quiet judgment you'll face for decisions others don't understand, to the compounding power of doing the same boring thing for years, this episode unpacks why most entrepreneurs quit right before the breakthrough. If you're questioning whether what you're doing is actually working, this conversation will reframe how you measure progress. Here's what you'll learn: Why caring less about what others think becomes easier (and more valuable) as you get older How to recognize when slow progress is actually compounding momentum, not wasted effort What separates entrepreneurs who scale from those who pivot too early If you're doing the right thing but not seeing results yet, this episode is your reminder to trust the process a little longer. ---- 01:49 — Michael and Jessica open the AMMA by reflecting on what has genuinely gotten easier with age and experience. 02:25 — Michael explains how small technological conveniences slowly reshape daily habits and expectations. 05:05 — Michael questions whether too much automation weakens problem-solving instincts. 07:02 — Why recovery changes as you get older and what that teaches about respecting physical limits. 08:20 — Michael reflects on how maturity changes the way you interpret challenges and handle stress. 10:11 — Michael explains why leaders cannot respond to every message, request, or opportunity. 11:00 — The leadership tradeoff between being accessible and protecting your focus. 12:23 — Michael breaks down how to decide which problems actually deserve your attention. 13:50 — Why watching someone succeed with less effort should inspire you, not frustrate you. 21:40 — The difference between rewarding effort and rewarding results (and why one builds firms that scale). 25:39 — Why the decisions you made in 2015 matter more to your life today than anything you did last year. ---- Links & Resources: Tesla Autopilot Waymo Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 401 — AMMA — From Girl Dad to CEO: The Michael Mogill Playbook 387 — AMMA — Stop Cleaning Up Their Mess: The Secret to a Self-Sufficient Team 143 — AMMA — Ask Michael Mogill Anything: Teslas, Distractions, and Rebuilding from Zero

The way you think about money has almost nothing to do with spreadsheets and everything to do with who you are. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Morgan Housel, New York Times bestselling author of The Psychology of Money and partner at the Collaborative Fund. With millions of copies sold and translations in over 50 languages, Morgan has spent his career studying not what the market will do next, but why we make the decisions we make with money. In this conversation, Michael and Morgan explore how personal experience shapes financial behavior, why the wealthiest people are often driven by something other than wealth, and what it actually means to use money as a tool for a better life. Here's what you'll learn: Why managing money is so new that we're still figuring out the rules, and why that means most people are learning as they go How your personal history with money shapes every financial decision you make, often in ways you don't realize What separates people who accumulate extreme wealth from those chasing it, and why the answer is rarely about money itself If you want to build wealth that lasts, you have to start by understanding the psychology driving every decision you make. ---- Show Notes: 03:57 — Why managing money for retirement is so new that there hasn't been a generational knowledge transfer yet. 05:19 — The social work principle that all behavior makes sense with enough information, and how it applies to financial decisions. 12:38 — The hardest financial concept to master is "enough," and how moving goalposts prevents happiness. 14:05 — Social comparison as the root of all financial unhappiness, and why there's always someone with more. 22:40 — The biggest financial risk is always what no one is talking about because you're not prepared for it. 28:13 — How savings without a specific goal gives you options and flexibility when the world surprises you. 30:07 — The highest form of wealth is waking up every morning and saying, "I can do whatever I want today." 31:44 — The difference between being rich and being wealthy, and why wealth is what you don't see. 40:26 — What it takes to turn down $1 billion at age 20, and why ultra-wealthy founders are rarely driven by money. 43:52 — What being a game changer means, and why the most admirable people are living extraordinary lives that no one knows about. ---- Links & Resources: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel Same as Ever by Morgan Housel Collaborative Fund Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Scott Galloway Chris Rock Warren Buffett ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 306. AMMA — From Ramen to Rolex: Celebrating Milestones Wisely 264. Bill Perkins — Die with Zero: Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life 223. Chad Willardson — Achieving Financial Freedom: Strategies for Building Abundant Wealth

Revenue is a vanity number. The only scoreboard that matters is what you actually take home. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill answer three listener questions that all point to the same uncomfortable truth: the absence of problems is not a sign that everything is working. It is usually a sign that you have stopped looking. This AMMA covers the metrics that actually matter, the complacency that creeps in when growth feels stable, and the leadership decisions that do not get easier the longer you wait to make them. Here's what you'll learn: Why profit, not revenue, is the only number worth building a strategy around What to do when smooth operations start to feel more like a warning than a win How to stop letting one difficult conversation hold your entire firm hostage Stop waiting for the situation to get worse before you do something about it. This episode is the push you need. ---- 1:46 – Michael discusses going to bed at 9pm, and explains how temporal discounting makes the habit so hard to build. 7:53 – The first question turns into a bigger conversation about what revenue actually tells you, and what it doesn't, when you're trying to diagnose why a firm isn't growing. 9:56 – Michael argues why chasing more cases is often the wrong lever, and what happens to your margins when volume becomes the strategy. 11:38 – The second question opens a conversation about what it means when everything in your firm feels fine, and why that feeling is worth being suspicious of. 12:44 – Michael makes the case that every firm owner eventually faces the same choice: create the pressure yourself or wait for the market to do it for you. 14:46 – The third question is about a managing partner who has been underperforming for a year. Michael and Jessica dig into what's really behind the decision not to act. 18:37 – Michael identifies what it looks like when a leadership team is choosing feelings over progress, and what it actually takes to change that. ---- Links & Resources: Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke The Game Changing Attorney by Michael Mogill Shawshank Redemption ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 405. AMMA — What it Takes to 10x Everything 399. AMMA — Why Sleep and Nutrition Are Secret Weapons for Scaling Firms 52. Brian Chase — Aligning Passion and Purpose