The Game Changing Attorney Podcast with Michael Mogill 449. How Hostage Negotiation Can Help You Win More Cases with Chris Voss [Encore Edition]
Most negotiators spend years perfecting their argument. Chris Voss spent his career learning how to make the other side feel heard.
In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, CEO of The Black Swan Group, and bestselling author of Never Split the Difference. With decades of high-stakes experience negotiating with criminals, terrorists, and executives alike, Chris challenges what most attorneys think they know about winning and explains why the collaborative negotiator almost always beats the combative one.
Here's what you'll learn:
- Why "win-win" is one of the clearest signals that someone is about to take advantage of you
- Why pushing back only when it's justified builds more credibility than fighting every point
- Why negotiation is a perishable skill and what small-stakes daily practice actually looks like for someone who does this at the highest level
Getting better at negotiation doesn't start with your next big case. It starts with the next conversation you have.
----
Show Notes:
2:32 — Since his first appearance on the podcast, Chris has been busy: a documentary, a book on empathy, and a bourbon brand built around dealmaking.
5:11 — Michael asks Chris to draw the line between how negotiation is portrayed on TV versus what effective negotiation actually looks like in practice, particularly for attorneys.
5:32 — Chris tells the story of a lawyer who trained under him as an FBI intern, became a practicing attorney, and out-earned every associate at his firm by refusing to be combative.
10:06 — Chris explains why a combative approach neurochemically triggers defensiveness in the other party, lengthening deals and eroding trust over time.
23:18 — Chris defines tactical empathy and cognitive empathy, explains why sociopaths are paradoxically the best at reading others, and describes how neuroscience backs the collaborative approach.
32:13 — Michael and Chris discuss negotiating in a digital world, why most people communicate too much at once, and why in-person interaction remains irreplaceable for building real relationships.
36:32 — Negotiation is a perishable skill. Chris shares how Tiger Woods approached practice and explains how he stays sharp by reading strangers in low-stakes everyday moments.
39:39 — Chris compares Patrick Mahomes and Kirk Cousins to illustrate the difference between ambition and perfectionism, and what that means for how people handle losing.
45:56 — Michael and Chris dig into what it actually takes to maintain a competitive edge over time
----
Links & Resources:
- The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel
- Same as Ever by Morgan Housel
- Collaborative Fund
- Bill Gates
- Mark Zuckerberg
- Jeff Bezos
- Elon Musk
- Scott Galloway
- Chris Rock
- Warren Buffett
----
Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel.
----
Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more.
----
If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like:
- 441. The Psychology Behind Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen
- 297. Ken Feinberg — Behind the 9/11 Compensation Fund: Navigating Tragedy & Complex Mediation
- 5. Chris Voss — FBI Negotiation Tactics for Business and Life