The Game Changing Attorney Podcast with Michael Mogill

The people you surround yourself with either push you forward or quietly hold you back. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill answer three listener questions that all point to the same tension: leaders who've scaled past seven figures often struggle to recalibrate the people they listen to, the way they make decisions, and the balance between intuition and expertise. This conversation reveals what happens when your growth outpaces your circle and how to fix it before it stalls your momentum. Here's what you'll learn: How to recognize when you've outgrown your peer group and what to do about it Why seeking too much input creates paralysis instead of clarity When to trust your instincts as a founder versus when to defer to expert advice If you want to scale without stalling, this episode will show you where the friction is coming from and how to fix it. ---- 01:52 — Michael explains why being in shape with kids is one of the biggest flexes as an adult 05:55 — Jessica reveals her new hobby that has taken over the kitchen 09:55 — How to manage people who are more experienced in their domain without just deferring to everything they say 12:40 — The game tape method: why reviewing the thought process behind decisions is the fastest way to improve leadership 14:02 — Why asking more people for advice often leads to more confusion instead of clarity 15:12 — What separates great leaders: the ability to decide and act despite uncertainty 17:54 — Why CFOs aren’t CEOs, and what that reveals about the role of financial expertise in growth decisions ---- Links & Resources: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Resident Evil Requiem Call of Duty ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 428. AMMA — What To Do When You Outgrow Your Circles 407. AMMA — Why Playing It Safe Is the Most Dangerous Strategy 395. AMMA — Why Consensus Slows Growth and How to Fix It

Most negotiators spend years perfecting their argument. Chris Voss spent his career learning how to make the other side feel heard. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Chris Voss, former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, CEO of The Black Swan Group, and bestselling author of Never Split the Difference. With decades of high-stakes experience negotiating with criminals, terrorists, and executives alike, Chris challenges what most attorneys think they know about winning and explains why the collaborative negotiator almost always beats the combative one. Here's what you'll learn: Why "win-win" is one of the clearest signals that someone is about to take advantage of you Why pushing back only when it's justified builds more credibility than fighting every point Why negotiation is a perishable skill and what small-stakes daily practice actually looks like for someone who does this at the highest level Getting better at negotiation doesn't start with your next big case. It starts with the next conversation you have. ---- Show Notes: 2:32 — Since his first appearance on the podcast, Chris has been busy: a documentary, a book on empathy, and a bourbon brand built around dealmaking. 5:11 — Michael asks Chris to draw the line between how negotiation is portrayed on TV versus what effective negotiation actually looks like in practice, particularly for attorneys. 5:32 — Chris tells the story of a lawyer who trained under him as an FBI intern, became a practicing attorney, and out-earned every associate at his firm by refusing to be combative. 10:06 — Chris explains why a combative approach neurochemically triggers defensiveness in the other party, lengthening deals and eroding trust over time. 23:18 — Chris defines tactical empathy and cognitive empathy, explains why sociopaths are paradoxically the best at reading others, and describes how neuroscience backs the collaborative approach. 32:13 — Michael and Chris discuss negotiating in a digital world, why most people communicate too much at once, and why in-person interaction remains irreplaceable for building real relationships. 36:32 — Negotiation is a perishable skill. Chris shares how Tiger Woods approached practice and explains how he stays sharp by reading strangers in low-stakes everyday moments. 39:39 — Chris compares Patrick Mahomes and Kirk Cousins to illustrate the difference between ambition and perfectionism, and what that means for how people handle losing. 45:56 — Michael and Chris dig into what it actually takes to maintain a competitive edge over time ---- Links & Resources: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel Same as Ever by Morgan Housel Collaborative Fund Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Scott Galloway Chris Rock Warren Buffett ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 441. The Psychology Behind Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen 297. Ken Feinberg — Behind the 9/11 Compensation Fund: Navigating Tragedy & Complex Mediation 5. Chris Voss — FBI Negotiation Tactics for Business and Life

Most firm owners are more uncertain than they let on. The ones performing at the highest level just have better frameworks to keep moving forward anyway. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill field three listener questions that circle the same uncomfortable admission: most firm owners are less certain than they look, and the people watching them aren't sure what to make of it. Michael gets into what it actually means to build a firm worth owning, how to read whether a firm is succeeding on skill or circumstance, and what it really takes to step out of someone else's shadow and lead on your own terms. Here's what you'll learn: Why feeling like you're winging it is not a sign something is wrong, and what success as a firm owner actually requires How to tell the difference between a firm owner making skilled decisions and one who has just been lucky Why the best leadership style is the one that produces results, regardless of what it looks like from the outside These questions come up privately all the time. This episode is where they finally get answered. ---- 01:48 – Michael opens with a Disney story that turns into a lesson on persistence and refusing to accept arbitrary limits 10:50 – Michael defines what it actually means to be a successful business owner 11:56 – Michael explains why most entrepreneurs feel like they are making it up as they go 13:28 – The difference between a business that depends on you and one that actually runs without you 15:17 – How to tell the difference between a lucky firm owner and a truly skilled one 15:48 – Why great leaders rely on decision-making frameworks instead of gut instinct alone 23:12 – Michael explains why leadership is about driving results, not being liked ---- Links & Resources: Roy McIlroy Tim Cook Steve Jobs Andy Jassy Jeff Bezos Amazon Web Services ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 443. Poker Face: The Framework for Navigating Professional Uncertainty with Tiffany Michelle 407. AMMA — Why Playing It Safe Is the Most Dangerous Strategy 203. AMMA — How to Know If You Are NOT Cut Out for Entrepreneurship

Kindra Hall, bestselling author and strategic storytelling expert, shows how leaders can turn personal and customer narratives into powerful business tools. She explains the four essential business stories, why many testimonials fail, and how to spot and rewrite the internal stories holding you back. Short, practical, and focused on making stories memorable and strategic.

The hardest part of building something real isn't the work. It's waiting for the work to matter. In this AMMA episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill explore one of the least discussed truths about business growth: the lag between effort and result. From the quiet judgment you'll face for decisions others don't understand, to the compounding power of doing the same boring thing for years, this episode unpacks why most entrepreneurs quit right before the breakthrough. If you're questioning whether what you're doing is actually working, this conversation will reframe how you measure progress. Here's what you'll learn: Why caring less about what others think becomes easier (and more valuable) as you get older How to recognize when slow progress is actually compounding momentum, not wasted effort What separates entrepreneurs who scale from those who pivot too early If you're doing the right thing but not seeing results yet, this episode is your reminder to trust the process a little longer. ---- 01:49 — Michael and Jessica open the AMMA by reflecting on what has genuinely gotten easier with age and experience. 02:25 — Michael explains how small technological conveniences slowly reshape daily habits and expectations. 05:05 — Michael questions whether too much automation weakens problem-solving instincts. 07:02 — Why recovery changes as you get older and what that teaches about respecting physical limits. 08:20 — Michael reflects on how maturity changes the way you interpret challenges and handle stress. 10:11 — Michael explains why leaders cannot respond to every message, request, or opportunity. 11:00 — The leadership tradeoff between being accessible and protecting your focus. 12:23 — Michael breaks down how to decide which problems actually deserve your attention. 13:50 — Why watching someone succeed with less effort should inspire you, not frustrate you. 21:40 — The difference between rewarding effort and rewarding results (and why one builds firms that scale). 25:39 — Why the decisions you made in 2015 matter more to your life today than anything you did last year. ---- Links & Resources: Tesla Autopilot Waymo Johann Wolfgang von Goethe ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 401 — AMMA — From Girl Dad to CEO: The Michael Mogill Playbook 387 — AMMA — Stop Cleaning Up Their Mess: The Secret to a Self-Sufficient Team 143 — AMMA — Ask Michael Mogill Anything: Teslas, Distractions, and Rebuilding from Zero

The way you think about money has almost nothing to do with spreadsheets and everything to do with who you are. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Morgan Housel, New York Times bestselling author of The Psychology of Money and partner at the Collaborative Fund. With millions of copies sold and translations in over 50 languages, Morgan has spent his career studying not what the market will do next, but why we make the decisions we make with money. In this conversation, Michael and Morgan explore how personal experience shapes financial behavior, why the wealthiest people are often driven by something other than wealth, and what it actually means to use money as a tool for a better life. Here's what you'll learn: Why managing money is so new that we're still figuring out the rules, and why that means most people are learning as they go How your personal history with money shapes every financial decision you make, often in ways you don't realize What separates people who accumulate extreme wealth from those chasing it, and why the answer is rarely about money itself If you want to build wealth that lasts, you have to start by understanding the psychology driving every decision you make. ---- Show Notes: 03:57 — Why managing money for retirement is so new that there hasn't been a generational knowledge transfer yet. 05:19 — The social work principle that all behavior makes sense with enough information, and how it applies to financial decisions. 12:38 — The hardest financial concept to master is "enough," and how moving goalposts prevents happiness. 14:05 — Social comparison as the root of all financial unhappiness, and why there's always someone with more. 22:40 — The biggest financial risk is always what no one is talking about because you're not prepared for it. 28:13 — How savings without a specific goal gives you options and flexibility when the world surprises you. 30:07 — The highest form of wealth is waking up every morning and saying, "I can do whatever I want today." 31:44 — The difference between being rich and being wealthy, and why wealth is what you don't see. 40:26 — What it takes to turn down $1 billion at age 20, and why ultra-wealthy founders are rarely driven by money. 43:52 — What being a game changer means, and why the most admirable people are living extraordinary lives that no one knows about. ---- Links & Resources: The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel Same as Ever by Morgan Housel Collaborative Fund Bill Gates Mark Zuckerberg Jeff Bezos Elon Musk Scott Galloway Chris Rock Warren Buffett ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 306. AMMA — From Ramen to Rolex: Celebrating Milestones Wisely 264. Bill Perkins — Die with Zero: Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life 223. Chad Willardson — Achieving Financial Freedom: Strategies for Building Abundant Wealth

Revenue is a vanity number. The only scoreboard that matters is what you actually take home. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill answer three listener questions that all point to the same uncomfortable truth: the absence of problems is not a sign that everything is working. It is usually a sign that you have stopped looking. This AMMA covers the metrics that actually matter, the complacency that creeps in when growth feels stable, and the leadership decisions that do not get easier the longer you wait to make them. Here's what you'll learn: Why profit, not revenue, is the only number worth building a strategy around What to do when smooth operations start to feel more like a warning than a win How to stop letting one difficult conversation hold your entire firm hostage Stop waiting for the situation to get worse before you do something about it. This episode is the push you need. ---- 1:46 – Michael discusses going to bed at 9pm, and explains how temporal discounting makes the habit so hard to build. 7:53 – The first question turns into a bigger conversation about what revenue actually tells you, and what it doesn't, when you're trying to diagnose why a firm isn't growing. 9:56 – Michael argues why chasing more cases is often the wrong lever, and what happens to your margins when volume becomes the strategy. 11:38 – The second question opens a conversation about what it means when everything in your firm feels fine, and why that feeling is worth being suspicious of. 12:44 – Michael makes the case that every firm owner eventually faces the same choice: create the pressure yourself or wait for the market to do it for you. 14:46 – The third question is about a managing partner who has been underperforming for a year. Michael and Jessica dig into what's really behind the decision not to act. 18:37 – Michael identifies what it looks like when a leadership team is choosing feelings over progress, and what it actually takes to change that. ---- Links & Resources: Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke The Game Changing Attorney by Michael Mogill Shawshank Redemption ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 405. AMMA — What it Takes to 10x Everything 399. AMMA — Why Sleep and Nutrition Are Secret Weapons for Scaling Firms 52. Brian Chase — Aligning Passion and Purpose

The cards you're dealt matter far less than what you do with your emotions when you pick them up. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Tiffany Michelle, world-class poker player, ESPN commentator, and one of the most recognizable faces in professional poker, to unpack what the game reveals about decision-making, emotional regulation, and how leaders can compete at the highest level. Tiffany brings the mindset of a champion to a conversation about the hidden cost of letting your emotions drive your strategy at the table and in your firm. Here's what you'll learn: Why emotional regulation, not talent or luck, is the single greatest separator between good players and great ones, and what that means for how you lead your firm How to make confident decisions when you're operating with incomplete information, high pressure, and no time to think What the 3 Cs of high performance (Clarity, Competitive Edge, and Calibration) look like in practice for attorneys navigating a high-stakes career If you want to stop letting your emotions cost you the hand, this episode is your playbook. ---- Show Notes: 02:17 – Tiffany shares how her grandfather taught her poker as a kid and why competing against her brothers lit a competitive fire that never went out. 05:35 – What actually separates good players from great ones, and why emotion regulation is the skill most people underestimate. 08:53 – Why the best players think 20 levels deep while most are still playing the surface, and how that gap shows up in every high-stakes decision. 13:45 – How to make confident decisions with incomplete information, combining what is automatic, what is analytical, and what is instinctual. 18:14 – Why great results do not always reflect great decisions, and how to reverse-engineer your process instead of just chasing outcomes. 23:07 – Tiffany's 3 Cs framework, Clarity, Competitive Edge, and Calibration, and how to apply them to your career and firm. 28:07 – How she stayed mentally locked in at the 2008 World Series of Poker with 27 players left, a fresh breakup, and $9 million on the line. 31:25 – Decision fatigue unpacked: why the problem is not thinking too much but treating every decision like it deserves the same weight. 42:35 – Looking back at the 2008 main event and the one thing she would have done differently, asking for help sooner. 52:49 – What being a game changer means to Tiffany, and why the biggest wins come from stepping boldly into uncertainty rather than waiting to feel ready. ---- Links & Resources: Tiffany Michelle World Series of Poker Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke Chris Moneymaker Daniel Negreanu Phil Hellmuth ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 334. Dr. Benjamin Hardy — From Limiting Beliefs to Limitless Potential: A Guide to Personal Growth 161. Joe De Sena — The Spartan Mindset: Embracing Discomfort and Unleashing Mental Toughness 71. Tim Grover — Winning: The Unforgiving Race to Greatness

The room you're in either challenges you to grow or quietly lets you stay the same. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael and Jessica Mogill answer three listener questions that expose a pattern most law firm owners won't say out loud: the peer groups they're loyal to have stopped challenging them, the leaders they hired aren't being allowed to lead, and the reason their team has gone quiet might be their own doing. This episode is a direct look at how necessary trust and delegation are for scaling your business. Here's what you'll learn: Why outgrowing your peer group is not a problem to fix but a signal to act on, and how to find the people who will actually push you forward How to tell whether a new leadership hire truly isn't the right fit, or whether you're undermining them before they ever get the chance Why the leaders who scale are the ones who get out of the way Stop surrounding yourself with people who tell you what you want to hear. This episode is your reminder that getting better requires truth, not comfort. ---- 09:03 — The first question kicks off a broader conversation about peer groups, truth-seeking, and why surrounding yourself with people who challenge you matters more than staying comfortable in the wrong room. 09:48 — Michael distinguishes love and support, and why the people who tell you what you want to hear are not the same as the people who help you grow. 12:48 — Why Michael's first question to any mentor is always "where am I wrong?" and what that mindset requires you to give up. 14:27 — The conversation turns to hiring and delegation, using a listener's managing partner situation to explore what it really means to bring a leader into your firm and then actually let them lead. 14:41 — Jessica raises the other side of the coin: what if the hire is actually capable and the owner is just getting in the way? 15:21 — Michael and Jessica tackle the "am I the asshole" question about a senior attorney who has gone quiet, and what it signals when talented people stop contributing. 17:38 — Michael reflects on his own evolution as a leader, from signing off on every decision to stepping back, and why the Summit ran better when he got out of the way. ---- Links & Resources: Entourage on HBO David Goggins John Maxwell ---- Learn what sustainable growth can look like for your firm at crispcoach.com. ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 349. AMMA — The Leadership Shift: Building a Firm That Doesn’t Depend on You 141. David Goggins — Never Finished: Unshackle Your Mind and Win the War Within 62. John Maxwell — Leadership is a Verb, Not a Noun

The most dangerous conversations aren't the ones we have. They're the ones we keep avoiding. In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Sheila Heen, Harvard Law professor, co-founder of Triad Consulting, and bestselling co-author of Difficult Conversations and Thanks for the Feedback. With over 30 years at the Harvard Negotiation Project, Sheila has spent her career studying why conversations go sideways and what it actually takes to have them well. In this conversation, Michael and Sheila unpack the hidden structure of every difficult conversation, explore why feedback triggers our deepest identity fears, and reveal how the most effective leaders learn to hear what others can't bring themselves to say. Here's what you'll learn: The three hidden layers in every difficult conversation How to use the "third story" approach to enter hard conversations without putting people on the defensive What separates leaders who invite honest feedback from those who build blind spots over time If you want to lead at the highest level, you have to be willing to have the conversations everyone else is avoiding. ---- Show Notes: 07:45 — Why negotiation isn't a field, and why that's actually the whole point. 11:37 — How the Difficult Conversations book has evolved over the past 25 years. 18:09 — Why every difficult conversation is actually three separate conversations happening at the same time. 20:07 — The movie theater test: one question that reveals exactly how you handle conflict. 23:38 — The reason starting from your own story almost always backfires, and what to do instead. 29:51 — The one type of feedback leaders give constantly that makes everything worse. 34:44 — Why two people can receive the exact same feedback and have completely different reactions 39:13 — The mistake Sheila made with her three-year-old son that she now uses to teach every leader she works with. ---- Links & Resources: Sheila Heen  Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Sheila Heen Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen Harvard Negotiation Project  Getting It Done by Roger Fisher and Alan Sharp Carol Dweck ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 395. AMMA — Why Consensus Slows Growth and How to Fix It 373. AMMA — Your Firm’s Biggest Threat: Too Many Good Ideas 156. Chris Voss — FBI Negotiation Tactics for Business and Life