The Game Changing Attorney Podcast with Michael Mogill 441. The Psychology Behind Difficult Conversations with Sheila Heen [Encore Edition]
The most dangerous conversations aren't the ones we have. They're the ones we keep avoiding.
In this encore episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Michael Mogill sits down with Sheila Heen, Harvard Law professor, co-founder of Triad Consulting, and bestselling co-author of Difficult Conversations and Thanks for the Feedback. With over 30 years at the Harvard Negotiation Project, Sheila has spent her career studying why conversations go sideways and what it actually takes to have them well. In this conversation, Michael and Sheila unpack the hidden structure of every difficult conversation, explore why feedback triggers our deepest identity fears, and reveal how the most effective leaders learn to hear what others can't bring themselves to say.
Here's what you'll learn:
- The three hidden layers in every difficult conversation
- How to use the "third story" approach to enter hard conversations without putting people on the defensive
- What separates leaders who invite honest feedback from those who build blind spots over time
If you want to lead at the highest level, you have to be willing to have the conversations everyone else is avoiding.
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Show Notes:
07:45 — Why negotiation isn't a field, and why that's actually the whole point.
11:37 — How the Difficult Conversations book has evolved over the past 25 years.
18:09 — Why every difficult conversation is actually three separate conversations happening at the same time.
20:07 — The movie theater test: one question that reveals exactly how you handle conflict.
23:38 — The reason starting from your own story almost always backfires, and what to do instead.
29:51 — The one type of feedback leaders give constantly that makes everything worse.
34:44 — Why two people can receive the exact same feedback and have completely different reactions
39:13 — The mistake Sheila made with her three-year-old son that she now uses to teach every leader she works with.
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Links & Resources:
- Sheila Heen
- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Sheila Heen
- Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen
- Harvard Negotiation Project
- Getting It Done by Roger Fisher and Alan Sharp
- Carol Dweck
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Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O’Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more.
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