Queer Theology

Father Shannon kicks off the Advent season with a solo episode where he reflects on the meaning of Advent as both a spiritual and practical season of preparation. During this time of rising threats for trans, non-binary folks, and immigrants, uncertainty and fear hangs over us. Fr. Shannon offers some grounding reflections about community, care, safety, resistance, and showing up for one another. You’re encouraged to bring your journal to this one! The Christian story calls us to co-create a more just and compassionate world, and we encourage listeners not only to reflect, but to take action in their communities.    Takeaways: We’re asking this question not out of a sense of doomsday prepper. What do I need to do right now, right where I am? Creating the kind of community I long to live in. Building a world that will protect the most at risk. The importance of personal responsibility in community building. Resilience is key in facing challenges. Safe spaces are essential for vulnerable populations. Community building requires active participation. We must think about our actions in the present moment. Creating supportive environments is a collective effort.   Resources: Join us and be part of Queering Advent! Find more info here.   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Amazon Music (1s): Ever notice how ads always pop up at the worst moments when the killer’s identity is about to be revealed? During that perfect meditation flow on Amazon music, we believe in keeping you in the moment. That’s why we’ve got millions of ad-free podcast episodes, so you can stay completely immersed in every story, every reveal, every breath. Download the Amazon music app and start listening to your favorite podcast, ad free, included with Prime. 2 (43s): Welcome to the Queer Theology podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 3 (46s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts 2 (51s): From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning 3 (57s): Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Today, you’ve got a solo Father Shannon episode. It is the beginning of Advent, and I just have a couple of thoughts and reflections that I wanted to share with you as we get this Christian season started. Advent has arrived. I kind of can’t believe that we are already at this point in the year. Hopefully you are already ready to go with your advent practice and that you’re raring to, to kick it off. 3 (1m 39s): I know for me, it sometimes takes me a bit to, to get into the season, but I, I find that advent is a, is a really important and reflective time. A time when we prepare, not only for Christmas of course, but also we reenter the Christian story. You know, advent is the beginning of the Christian calendar, and we begin anew to replay this ancient story, the story of Jesus, the story of the Christian people, a story that still resonates and resounds today, and, and whether or not you still consider yourself a Christian, whether or not you’ve ever celebrated or observed Advent before. 3 (2m 25s): I think that there’s a lot that we can get out of the themes of Advent and thinking through kind of this cycle of the Christian life, the cycle of the spiritual life, the cycle of the stories that we tell about ourselves and our communities. And I’ve been thinking a lot about the themes of advent, particularly in these days. You know, advent is often thought of as a time of preparation. And you know, right now, as I am recording this, we’re, we’re getting ready to enter into this season. And, you know, the threats against trans and non-binary people in particular continue to rise. 3 (3m 7s): So do prices and potentially healthcare costs if we can even get healthcare at all. And there’s so much violence and fear and anxiety the way that immigrants are being treated in this country. The political rhetoric all over, you know, it feels really scary sometimes, and it also feels often, I think with the 24 7 news media, like things are getting a lot worse. And, and I know for me as a trans person, I’ve been thinking a lot about what can I do to prepare? And I know a lot of other trans people are, are thinking about this as well. 3 (3m 47s): And we’re asking this question not out of a sense of pessimism or like a doomsday prepper, but we’re thinking about it, or at least I’m thinking about it, of, you know, what do I need to do right now, right where I am right in these moments in order to create the kind of community that I long to live in. What do I need to do right now, right here, right in this moment in order to keep building a world that will protect the most at risk? And so in this advent season, I am thinking both theologically and practically about these questions, about this theme of preparation. 3 (4m 31s): And I’m working to answer these questions for myself. And, and I thought that today it, it might be interesting to offer them as reflections for you too, if these questions feel useful. And so I’m, I’m gonna ask the question and pause just for a couple of seconds. If you wanted to use this as an exercise, as journaling prompts, as time to think, you could simply hit pause on the podcast after each question. If it’s more helpful for you to hear all the questions and then spend some time to reflect, feel free to do that. But here are the questions that, that I’m reflecting on, and then I offer to you as a reflection as well. The first is simply who is in my community? 3 (5m 15s): And you can think of this as narrowly or as broadly as you want. I encourage you to think about it, especially concretely, both like who is in your community, right, in your location and lo locality, like who around you is in your community. But you can also think more broadly of who is in your community. What does community care look like? What matters to me when it comes to my health? And how can I put measures in place to protect that health? 3 (5m 60s): What might I need to think about when it comes to legal documents moving forward? Who are the people I trust who can inform me about what I need to do to keep myself safe? How did my elders make it through similar times? What can I learn from strategies of resistance and strategies of care from the past? How am I giving back to my community? 3 (6m 41s): What can I offer my community? And after you’ve spent some time reflecting, I invite you to not just leave these as answers on paper or a screen, don’t just leave them in a journal, but use these answers to start to inform how you’re showing up. Maybe you wanna show up in some new ways. I am particularly using this advent to prepare and answer these questions so that I can begin to act so that I, I can begin to show up in my community in new ways. I think that the story of Jesus wasn’t just about a miraculous intervention into human history. 3 (7m 26s): You know, often we talk about the advent story and the Jesus story as you know, the people were waiting and then Jesus came and, and it was all fixed, right? ’cause, ’cause Jesus came. I think that instead the story of Advent is a reminder that there are always prophets who are pointing out what’s wrong in the world. There are always prophets who are looking around and saying, we don’t have to live like this. And then those same prophets are inviting us to be a part of the solution. And so in this advent time, I think it’s a time for us to look around and point out what’s wrong. It’s a time for us to uplift the voices of the prophets and to echo the voices of the prophets. 3 (8m 13s): But it’s also a time for all of us to remember the invitation, to be a part of the solution, to remember the invitation, to continue to build a new world together, to continue to look out for the most marginalized and the most at risk in our midst. And to do whatever we can to make the world safer for them and for all of us. And so I offer this as an advent reflection for you. If you want some extra support throughout this advent season, you can join Sanctuary Collective. We would love to have you as a member of the community. This 2 (8m 50s): Is Brian popping in as we edit. To let you know that inside of Sanctuary Collective during Advent, we have a guided audio advent experience for you called queering Advent. It’s a mix of bible readings, queer reflections, prompts for you to reflect on, and even a few suggestions for adventures and experiments to put your faith into an action. A new prompt drops every day of Advent, so you can learn more in signup@queertheology.com slash advent. It’s just $1 per day. And you also get access to the entire Sanctuary Collective community and spiritual study hall resources collection. Again, that’s queer theology.com/advent, and it’s happening all advent long. I hope to see you inside. 3 (9m 28s): We would love to support you through Advent and this holiday season. Be well and we’ll see you next time. 2 (9m 35s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 3 (9m 44s): To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. 2 (9m 51s): We’ll see you next week. Libsyn Ads (9m 55s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion, and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libson ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com Today. The post An Advent Reflection for Uncertain Times appeared first on Queer Theology.

This episode dives into Matthew Chapters 14-16 and the rich political, communal, and spiritual tensions woven throughout. We unpack the death of John the Baptist, the feeding miracles, Jesus walking on water, debates about purity, the encounter with the Canaanite woman, and Peter’s declaration of Jesus as Messiah. These stories are especially revealing as they challenge Empire, center outsiders, and call followers into risky, justice-oriented solidarity. We get into what treasonous acts we may be called to take up when confronting power, and what it really means to “take up your cross” today.   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Mochi Health (1s): A mochi moment from Sadie who writes, I’m not crying, you’re crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn’t have to convince him I needed a GLP one, he understood and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I’m Myra Ammo, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit join mochi.com. Sadie is A mochi member compensated for her story. 2 (40s): Well, 3 (40s): To the Queer Theology podcast, I’m Brian G. Murphy. 4 (43s): And I’m father Shannon, TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts 3 (47s): From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning 4 (53s): Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. 3 (1m 2s): Today we’re doing a deep dive on three chapters of Matthew, Matthew 14, 15 and 16. This episode feels particularly important right now as it talks about confronting the powers that be in the places we live. And spoiler alert contains a bit of a call to treason in these charged political times. How our faith calls us to engage with society, community, government, and the world around us feels especially important. This episode originally aired as part of a larger series looking at the entire book of Matthew. If you’re interested in checking out more of that, the first episode of the series does a lot of context setting for the whole book of Matthew. 3 (1m 48s): That episode re aired just a few episodes ago, so you could scroll back for that. The whole series was episodes 4 72 through 4 79. So if you’re looking for those in the podcast app, scroll back to find those. And with that, let’s dive into Matthew chapter 14, 15, and 16. We are back and we are officially entering the second half of this eight part, eight week series on the gospel of Matthew. I hope that you are loving it and not sick of it yet. We’ve covered a lot of ground and there’s still so much to go. Shea and I, Shea was in Los Angeles for a few weeks, so we were in the same place at the same time. 3 (2m 28s): And we were chatting after recording last week’s episode that like even eight weeks, it feels like not enough time. Like last week’s episode, we walked away being like, oh, there was like 25 more things that we wanted to say about just those passages. And so thankfully inside of Sanctuary Collective, we have some space to discuss, discuss some more and go into, into more detail. So if you are digging the series and you want more of it, join us in Sanctuary collective community to find out all about that. And now let’s dig into part five. Shea, what, what the heck’s going on? Yeah. So today we are gonna take a look at chapters 14 through 16. 3 (3m 12s): Once again, not enough time. We’re gonna have to go really broad strokes. And I think that this is the fact that we’re talking about going in depth, but also like that there’s so much more to uncover is to me, the really exciting thing about doing Bible study and doing it well, right, is that there is always more to uncover that there’s always so much going on under the surface and, and that each time you encounter these texts, like you’re encountering something different because you’ve changed, because the world has changed because your understanding has changed. And that to me just feels like continually an exciting process. 3 (3m 55s): And so as we dive in, we start out with the death of John the Baptist. And this is another moment where Matthew takes some from Mark, but changes it significantly. It’s also this really weird passage because like he starts out with a story and then is like, after John was dead, oh wait, I haven’t actually told you any, anything of that happened. And then we like go back in time. He tells that story and then it’s like back to the present. It’s just this like weird, weird little thing. But I do think that the, the important piece about why the author of Matthew is talking about the death of John the Baptist is that he is really linking Jesus to John, that he’s really linking Jesus in the line of prophets and the prophetic tradition. 3 (4m 52s): And also he’s naming again that like these are prophets who are going up against the politically powerful, that it’s not just about spirituality or belief that it’s actually a direct confrontation of the political powers. And so that’s why we get this kind of strange and misplaced John the Baptist story. Anything about that story that that co that sticks out for you, Brian? Well, it reminds me of reading like my a DHD fused journal where I’m like, oh, wait, hold on. I’m like, I’m skipping all around. One thing that comes up for me is, you know, I know that like James Cohen talks a lot about sort of like the cross and the lynching tree and like Jesus as a, as a, a lynched black man and sort of like drawing parallels between the Jesus story and the experience of like violent, racist, anti-black racism in the us. 3 (5m 47s): But I’m also thinking about like, sort of like with that in the background, the death of John the Baptist and the deaths of many people over the past, I mean like millennia, like centuries, but also in the past like decade or so of, of Trayvon Martin and George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and sort of like these moments where people dying become part of like ca like capitalisms to social to more aggressive or more infused social movements, or they become sort of like a rallying point. And I like, I don’t wanna say that like either like John the Baptist or like any of the black people that are killed by police in the US like need quote unquote like needed to die in order to sort of like fulfill some like weird manuscript of like divine manuscript. 3 (6m 35s): But I’m just like noting that like, just descriptively, this is like something that has happened in the past and continues to have echoes today of like the state is violent. Like the state was, like the state was violent, then the state is violent now. The state kills people, the state then like the state kills people now. And in response to those deaths, people, you know, rise up and cry out to demand a more just world. So that is one thing that that pops up for me. And that is very clear in one of the other gospels. It it’s different in Matthew’s narrative, but in, i, I can’t remember if it’s Mark or if it’s Luke, but where the death or where, where the arrest of John the Baptist is really the thing that like pushes Jesus into public ministry that before that he had been kind of on the sidelines still preparing. 3 (7m 25s): And so I think that your point is, is really right and, and it’s both, I think that like there are these moments that radicalize us and others, and then there is also a, like a mantle has been dropped and it needs to be picked up. And I think that that that is both like the, the trauma of, of needing to continually be in activism work and also like how deeply we are connected to one another that that the pa that that kind of passing of a torch matters and, and is important. Amen. 3 (8m 5s): And so we, we run from the death of John the Baptist into the feeding of the 5,000. And this is such a fascinating story because again, we have the author of Matthew who’s trying to make really, really specific points about this story. This isn’t just a miracle story. This is, there are all of these references to things that happened in the story of the Israelites that, that the author of Matthew was trying to say that like, again, Jesus is continuing in this tradition. And so we have echoes of when Eisha provided food after the death of Elijah. 3 (8m 51s): And so here we have Jesus providing food after the death of John. Again, this sense of picking up the prophetic mantle. Yeah, we have a, a counter picture of the, the story of the manna and the wilderness when the, when the folks were fed in the wilderness, but the then the rule was like, you can’t take more than that day share, right? If you take more than what you need for that day, it’s gonna go bad. But here we have a story where all of these leftovers are collected and saved. And so it seems to be saying like in the new world, in this new world order, hunger is replaced by extravagance. That daily sustenance is replaced by everyone having enough all the time. 3 (9m 36s): And that there’s an abundance, which I think is just really beautiful. And there have also been people who talked about how, you know, when, when the people were arranged in, in groups of 500, that these, that that number is really important and that Jesus is arranging the people in military companies, which is definitely not something I was taught no. In my evangelical church growing up. Yeah. And so that was a moment for me when I read that and I read that in a commentary and I was like, oh, well that changes things, right? Like again, we have this sense of Rome, the political powers, they’re the ones that are supposed to be providing bread for the people and they’re not. 3 (10m 22s): And so we are gonna step up and do it. And I think about it makes me think about how often like mutual aid movements have stepped in where government agencies, where politicians, where, you know, quote unquote safety nets that are really never safety nets have failed and, and how much of a responsibility we have to take care of one another. Yeah, that reminds me of like the Black Panthers like a, you know, the way that they organize and also like, not just like, I think for many of us, the image of Black Panthers is like a sort of like militaristic presence, but also like, like providing community safety, providing, you know, food, lunches, meal breakfast for, for kids, like a huge social services network that I was not taught. 3 (11m 18s): And so I, I sort of like see echos of that also, you know, we are constantly talking about like, you like just picking up the Bible and trying to read a passage that it is like trying to pick up Shakespeare. Like you can understand the, the words on the page, but like you’re gonna be missing so much of the context and the nuance. And actually sometimes you might totally misunderstand things because like you don’t understand that the, like the the such and structure or the, that actually like, this is a, this is a sort of coded language or a coded joke about something. And I, you know, I I was at a Shabbat morning service a few, a few months ago and the Hto portion was about this, this scene from Alicia and I, I came home and I took, I think I texted you and I was like, oh my God, did you know that in the Hebrew Bible there’s also this story? 3 (12m 2s): And you were like, yes, Brian, obviously I need that. But it was even news to me that I’m still, you know, I I been, I studied religion undergrad, I had been like, you know, doing this work at re com for almost a decade now, and I’m still learning more stuff. And so this is a, like an is something that you like need to like put some time and effort to sort of like pick apart what you’re reading and also like b an ongoing practice, which I think rather than feeling like, oh my God, it takes so much work, like this is so hard. I look at it as like, oh my God, this is like so exciting. There’s always more to learn. There’s always sort of like more juice to squeeze out of the orange. You can continue sort of like coming back and discovering new stuff. 3 (12m 43s): And so I, I really sort of like dig this, this work of like finding like, what more can I learn the more that I learn about the historical context or these sort of echoes of the Hebrew Bible or these parallels to Rome, it just sort of makes it come alive that much more for me. Queer Sociology (13m 1s): And I can quickly plug, if you’re sort of like digging this podcast series and like, you know, digging these sort of like things are pointing out and you like wanna be able to do this with some other passage, some other book that’s not the gospel of Matthew. We have a, a workshop called Digging the Details that is all about how to sort of like do this process yourself. We walk you through that and you get to sort of like pick pick your own passage. You can find more about that at queer sociology.com/digging. 3 (13m 25s): Yeah. So with that session, Shane, like, teach me more. Yeah. And I, and I think that your point is, is really well made Brian in that like it’s, it, there’s always more to uncover. It’s a lot of fun. We always encourage people to follow your curiosity. Like this doesn’t have to be a dry, academic burdensome homework assignment, right. That you could like follow the things that that spark your curiosity. But I do think that like approaching the Bible in this way is a fundamental shift for those of us who grew up thinking that, you know, it’s all just gonna make sense, right? We’re just gonna open up the text and it’s gonna speak to exactly where we are today. 3 (14m 9s): And I just don’t think that that’s the, a good way to read the Bible, which isn’t to say that, that you might not, which isn’t to say that it, that will never happen, right? Like you might open up the text and find a word of encouragement that does seem to speak exactly to where you are at the moment. But it is like a, this is a different posture towards wrestling with texts and it, it is a little bit more work and also I find it to be a lot more fun and a lot more rich than like hoping that some passage is gonna speak to me. That it, it feels more, I don’t know, it just, there’s just more like there’s more meat to it, right? 3 (14m 53s): Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really important. And I would also add that like when I do this work, it makes it so that like basically any passage has like something to say about like the present moment and where I’m at because like there’s just like, they’re actually so rich and there’s like so much going on and when you approach them as sort of like three dimensional stories with context and different characters in them in depth, like there’s always a way in. And so actually doing a little bit of work, I think if you’re, if you want the Bible to sort of be like, I don’t know, like a love letter to you or inspiration to you, I actually think that like doing this work makes it more of that, not less of that. 3 (15m 35s): Yeah. So we moved then from the feeding the 5,000 to Jesus walking on the water, which is kind of a fascinating little snippet. And some of the things that commentators have said is that this is one of the first times that Jesus sends the disciples on ahead of him. Like he tells them to get in a boat and they go and, and then there is, you know, this big piece about Jesus having, being able to walk on water, which again is, is kind of a, a callback to Rome and to power that it was considered that the gods were the ones who had control over nature. And so for Jesus to be able to walk on water is putting him in that place with the gods. 3 (16m 20s): Yeah. Yes. And that then this, this sense of like, that like Peter’s lack of faith that he got out on the water and sank. One of the commentaries I was reading was like if Peter had actually had faith, like it wasn’t that Peter didn’t have faith and so he sank, it’s that Peter should have had faith before getting outta the boat that he should have just stayed in the boat and like recognized the divinity of Jesus and that Jesus was gonna walk toward him, which I thought was kind of funny. And also like shows how differently you can interpret these texts, these passages, that this is just a small snippet that, that commentators have been like arguing about and coming up with different ideas around for like forever. 3 (17m 8s): Yeah. ’cause mine was, the way that I was taught was definitely like, you might have, you might have faith in Jesus now, but if you take your eyes off of the prize for like one second, you are in danger of like sinking and drowning into the ocean. Right? Right. But even if you do that, like if you, if Jesus will like, still wants to save you, so like, you know, be careful. Right. Okay. Yeah. So we moved then from Jesus walking on the water to again, a really important but also fraught story where it’s basically a giant argument between Jesus and his disciples and the Pharisees all about ritual purity. 3 (17m 52s): And again, we just wanna keep driving this home over and over again. So this is an intercommunal argument that this particular community, these Jesus followers were breaking off of the tradition that they had once held. And so it’s really important that we not continue to feed into antisemitism by, for instance, making the Pharisees bad guys in all of our stories or in complaining about other Christian groups by calling them pharisees. Like that is just not helpful. It’s not good and it’s not the best practice for this because we’re Christians and like we’re, we like descend from that heritage. 3 (18m 33s): Like that is the story, those are the stories that we get told. But like the Pharisees, like both now, like rabbinic Judaism now and also the Pharisees at the time of Jesus we’re also like wrestling with a lot of these same questions and answering them in like sometimes similar ways, sometimes different ways. Like I’m thinking back just to earlier the story of the feeding the 5,000 and you were sort of like, it’s a counter picture to the manna that couldn’t be saved. And like Farris said, Judaism and Rabbi Judaism has also wrestled with that story from the Torah of like, what does it mean that like we can’t save up enough and that it spoils and like what type of God does that depict? And, and coming up with new understandings of that as well. 3 (19m 17s): So there also like if there’s something that like Jesus is annoyed act, it’s also sometimes the case that like the Pharisees were also annoyed in that same thing. They just like were answering it in different ways. It’s also sometimes the case that they’re very true and distinct differences between, between the two of them that are, and that are important not to gloss over, but just like to remember that like we are only told part of the story. Yeah. And I think that brings up the, the, the thing that I wanna discuss, which is like, what does it look like to hold in good tension, differing beliefs? Yeah. And how do we disagree well without demonizing others. And I think that like there’s, there’s a little bit of both ands here, right? 3 (20m 2s): Yeah. As we’re recording this, the New York Times is coming under fire for it’s like ridiculously months and months and months of transphobic reporting. And their response to op-ed that, or the response to an open letter that was calling them out on their transphobic reporting was to basically say like, I don’t know, we’re just trying to like both sides this thing, right? Like we’re trying to give equal, equal side to trans people and to people that should say that say trans people don’t, shouldn’t exist. And then of course the also the very next day they post an op-ed in defense of JK rally. 3 (20m 43s): So we can see Yeah, they’re not actually like both sizing it and also on some issues. There are not two sides, right? There is like Right, and there is genocide and, and then there are times when like we are in a religious tradition where we believe one thing and that another tradition, another thing, and that those beliefs are fundamentally incompatible, right? Either you believe that Jesus’, that that the Eucharist becomes Jesus’s body and blood or you don’t like both of those things can’t really be true at the same time. 3 (21m 25s): And also like we can be in relationship with people who believe different things about the Eucharist without it being like turning violent. So how, how do you wrestle with, with those things? How do you decide what’s a like deal breaker and where, where you can be in conversation with people and how do we do this? Well? Oh man, what a question. I think that that is a question that has been on my heart probably for like, for as long as queer theology.com has existed. I think like the, the sort of, you know, ongoing question that I think that I personally have within myself that we also sometimes hopefully have is sort of like what, like what makes someone a Christian? 3 (22m 10s): Like what does it mean to be a Christian? And like how do we draw our lines? And I think also this relates to to queerness too, right? Like what does it mean to be queer? How do we draw our lines? Like what is sort of like an essential part of queerness? What is an essential part of Christianity? And also like that like changes over time perhaps that like we understand queerness differently now than we did 10 years, 20 years ago, a hundred years ago. Like certainly the range of sort of like mainstream Christian believes in practice has evolved over time, especially as that sort of has become democratized and moved away from like a central authority in Rome to, you know, the process of affirmation and sort of becoming an individual religion. 3 (22m 56s): And so I, I think that like, there’s an element of, for me, an element of like, I don’t know everything and I can’t know everything. There’s an element of like, this feels right and true for me. This is something that I want to, like, I like, I wanna act as if this is true and orient my life in this manner. And I think part of it also comes down to sort of like with all that said, like listening to when someone else says, well that’s all well and good, but like the way that you’re living out that belief about what you believe to be true, like is impacting me and causing me harm. 3 (23m 46s): And so like then what do you do? Like I’m thinking about right? Like evangelical Christians, like really, truly, some of them really truly believe that if you don’t say the prayer and you don’t stop having gay sex, you are going to like burn in hell for all eternity. So it like on some level like makes sense that they then evangelize people and try to get people to stop having gay sex because like they are some people, I think more so people on the pews than the political leaders who are manipulating these causes for power and money and control and prestige. But like, you know, like your grandma might earnestly believe or your grandfather like might earnestly believe or your, your, your brother might earnestly believe just to be true, right? 3 (24m 35s): And so like then like then what do you do with that? And where do you go from there? Like do you, and so there’s a little bit of like, I think for me, like, like listening to people when they say like, this is harming me. And also like an informed consent model of like, yeah, I hear that you are concerned about the state of my eternal soul. I relinquish responsibility. You don’t, you don’t have to worry about that any longer. So I think that’s perhaps like part of the equation. What would you, what would you add to that Jay? Yeah, I, I think all of what you said is really important and I think too that, that there is something to be learned from often, like the differences that feel incompatible, that teach me something. 3 (25m 24s): And I’m thinking specifically of like religious differences. And this is both like within denominations of Christianity, but also like in interfaith work that there’s something I I can really learn from learn the ways in which someone else doesn’t believe the things that I do. And that doesn’t mean that I have to like stop believing them necessarily unless you, like you said, they’re harmful. But it does mean that, that it helps me to articulate why about this thing is so important to me and also like what, how it shapes my life and orients my life differently. And I think that that’s really important. Yeah. Like I, you know, I, I know a amongst many progressive Christians like universal salvation, like is an important component of that faith. 3 (26m 12s): And I on Twitter, someone who is not, who is not Christian, I tweeted something to the effect of like, no, I don’t think that everyone gets to like live in paradise wherever. I, I do think that there is some people who like, like deserve to be and will be sort of like burning in hell thinking about sort of like war criminals, leaders of genocides, et cetera. Like you don’t get off the hook for that. And I, like, in that moment I sort of had to like sit with like, what do I, I don’t have to like, oh, well this other person who’s not a Christian said this, so now I have to believe that. But it did sort of like, it wa it was sort of a moment to sort of like sit with that uncomfortability. And I think the times in which someone has said something that wildly diverges from what I believe are how I think has been really meaningful for me, sometimes it helps me to sort of clarify what I do believe and to articulate that better. 3 (27m 6s): And sometimes it sort of becomes like a conversion moment. You know, many, many, many years ago, like a, a friend said to me like, you know, like all cops are bastards and police are sites of violence that like, are like a net site of net sources of violence in our communities. And I was like, what? And over time I’m like, like that is a moment where I like did change. But there have been other times when people have said things and it’s like, oh, I hear you. I can unappreciate that perspective. Like that may might add some more nuance to what I believe and I might articulate it slightly differently. But ultimately the kernel of what I, this just sort of clarifies that for me at least, this is, is what I believe. And there are some things right where like, I don’t know if you believe someone goes to hell or you don’t believe someone goes to hell, like, especially someone who’s already dead, right? 3 (27m 50s): Like they can’t, it’s too late for ’em to get saved. Our thoughts about that doesn’t actually change that. But then how do we like live that out in the world? What, how does that sort of like infuse how we then move through the world? And I think like paying attention like Jesus talked about in Matthew seven, like the fruits of the fruits of your theology. How does that play out in the real world? Alright, so we move from this, we’re we’re Trek and Ray Long to a story that has, we’ve talked about in the podcast before. It’s one where Jesus basically calls a Canaanite woman a dog. And there have been lots and lots of, again, this is a passage where hundreds of thousands of people have been debating upon its meeting over the years. 3 (28m 34s): I I do think that this is a moment where we see Jesus kind of growing in his own understanding of his mission. And also it’s a moment once again where the author of Matthew is highlighting that outsiders are welcome in this new movement, right through all of Matthew, we have this series of outsiders, the the women who are mentioned in the genealogy, several of whom were outsiders, who who are grafted in to the Jewish community. We have the magi who are the ones who come to see the infant Jesus again, outsiders. 3 (29m 14s): Now we have this, this moment where Jesus is praising, it takes him a while to get there, but eventually praising the faith of a Canaanite woman. And I, and I think that again that that this arc of towards more inclusion is, is really important to the author of Matthew and should be important to us as, as followers of Jesus. That, that this is a, a moment to pay attention to the people who are normally considered outsiders, who Jesus centers. Yeah. When I first heard about this story, it was very much like, well of course I don’t know, like Jesus could obviously do no wrong. And then I heard sort of a more liberal interpretation of this, where it was like this became a moment where Jesus like learns and grows. 3 (30m 3s): And then I heard an additional commentary that was sort of speculating that there’s like a little bit of a, like a setup here that like perhaps like that Jesus was always about inclusion and that this exchange between the two of them, like you said, it took them a while to get there, but was like a setup, sort of like setting her up to sort of make the point and sort of that it was like partially for the benefit, not for the benefit of, but it was sort of like, like a little like a dog and pony show for the audience that was there, which I don’t know what to make of that, but just sort of like, it’s got, it’s got me noodling. Yeah, for sure. So after this encounter with the Canaanite woman, we have another feeding story feeding up the 4,000 this time. 3 (30m 50s): And we’re, I’m gonna gloss over the next couple of things because many of the things that we talked about earlier are repeated. So we have this feeding of the 4,000, we have then a bunch of people who come to Jesus looking for a sign. And then we have Jesus kind of pushing back against the people who are looking for a sign. And he said something to his followers about, about yeast, like, don’t, don’t concentrate on the yeast. And the disciples misunderstand what he’s saying to them. They don’t take it as a metaphor, they take it literally and they say to him like, but we didn’t bring any bread. 3 (31m 34s): We forgot the bread. And I’m just like so struck by this passage because it, for me, it’s, it’s a, it’s like hysterical, but it’s also like, can you imagine Jesus’s annoyance? He’s like, I just fed a total of 9,000 people and you ding-dongs are like, we forgot the bread. Like, are you not paying attention? Yeah. And I, but I think that also, like that’s kind of the point, right? Of like, there are all of these moments where things have worked out, when things have been good, where we’ve been provided for, and then we immediately go back into that kind of scarcity mindset of oh shit, we forgot the bread. 3 (32m 20s): And I, and I think that that’s like Jesus is getting at something very human with these folks, but also like we have a very human response too in that. Yeah, I think, you know, I I I wanna hear someone say that like when, when times are bad, it’s sort of our human nature to think that they will never get bad, they never get good again. And that when times are good that it’s about like they’re about to turn bad and it’s, and like all the goodness that we, we just experienced is about to go away. And so I definitely sort of like see that human impulse that I know I experienced like playing out here as well. Yeah. And now we’re, we’re heading into the very kind of final section of these chapters. And it’s important to note that this is the exact center of the gospel of Matthew. 3 (33m 6s): So we’re at the dead middle of Matthew’s narrative of Jesus’s story. And we have a really fascinating encounter between Jesus and Peter in particular. Jesus asks his disciples, who do people say that I’m? And they come out with this like range of things. Like some say that you’re John the Baptist resurrected, some say that you are Elijah, some say that you’re Moses. And then Jesus asks them, who do you say that I’m? And Peter comes back with, you are the Messiah, the Son of God. 3 (33m 48s): And then it’s after that that Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom, says, anything you bind on earth will be bound. Anything you unloose will be unlost. But this is what strikes me as really fascinating about this portion amidst all of the flowery language. It’s also after Peter’s declaration of who Jesus is, that Jesus starts to talk about, okay, like now we’re heading to Jerusalem, we’re, we’re going to the center of power to confront the powers that be. And I think that this is fascinating because it strikes me that it’s only after Peter says something treasonous, right? 3 (34m 35s): Peter has just now said, you are the Lord, not Caesar, you are God, not Caesar like this. This isn’t a theological statement. We’re not entirely a theological statement. This is a political statement and it’s a political statement that could get you killed. Like, yeah, this is treason. And it’s only after Peter commits treason that Jesus says, okay, now we’re heading to Jerusalem. Now you’re in this like now, now we’re gonna go on our real work, which is to confront the powers directly and we’re gonna travel there and we’re gonna go together. And it’s also right after this that Jesus says, take up your cross and follow me. 3 (35m 20s): Mm. And so this is not a, like, I, I think that we have been so conditioned to read this text taxed with like the end, Jesus’s end in mind as if Jesus is the only person that was crucified and he wasn’t right. Like crucifixion was the thing that Rome did to anyone who committed treason. Anyone who tried to go against the powers that be anyone who tried to be a rebel. It was public because it scared other people and made them get into line, right? Like it was a public execution to quell rebellion. I think about like the Hunger Games, right? 3 (36m 1s): It’s like this is what was happening. So when Jesus says to Peter and the disciples take up your cross and follow me, he’s not talking about like, I don’t know, be miserable or like suffer. He is saying, okay, now we’re confronting the powers that be. Are you willing to go with me even though it’s gonna get us all killed? Right? That’s the question. Yeah. And so for me that makes this passage, this isn’t, again, this isn’t just like some trite theological thing about suffering for Jesus. This is like, what are the crosses you are being called to take up today? 3 (36m 41s): Like what treasonous acts are you being asked to participate in? Are you willing to participate in, to bring about the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven? And that to me is a much more challenging question. It’s a much more uncomfortable question. And I think that is the question that we’re being asked to wrestle with and like that’s how this text is still speaking. Yeah. I’m seeing this text and I mean, I’ve seen this text, this passage, you know, whole new way a few to times over the course of my life. And this is one of those sort of like another revelation moment where it’s not like you’re going to be burdened with this for the rest of your, like being gay is just sort of like a burden you have to live with for the rest of your live long days. 3 (37m 24s): Right? Or what will you give up? It’s like act as if you’re already dead. Like, and like you like taking up your cross is like, okay, like now that, like now that you’ve resigned yourself to like dying for this cause like, then what does that free you up to do? And like, holy shit. Like I, that’s a big, that is a big charge that like, I don’t know if I’m up for it. I dunno if many of us are up for that, right? But, but I also think, right, like it’s so often this, this passage is you like wielded against vulnerable people, right? 3 (38m 5s): Like your abusive marriage, the abusive marriage that you’re in, woman is like your cross to bear, your sexuality queer people is your cross to bear. And actually it’s like quite the flip side, it’s like, like being willing to give up all of the things that keep you safe and make you powerful and to like orient yourself to a confrontation with the empire and to like resign yourself to like, oh yeah, this is the thing that’s gonna, that’s gonna kill me. It reminds me of there’s this incredible scene in how to survive a plague. It’s it’s documentary footage of back from like in the eighties and, and nineties, I believe it was, it was probably like, like mid nine, early mid nineties. 3 (38m 53s): And there’s this clip of Peter Staley, there’s a bunch of like aids and Act Up organizers sort of like planning their next action. And Peter Staley in this clip says like, I’m gonna die from this. Like this is it. Like I’m gonna die from this. 5 (39m 5s): I’ve felt forever now that I’m not gonna outlive this epidemic that I will, that I will die from this. 6 (39m 10s): You know, maybe that is 7 (39m 11s): Our future that we’re gonna watch each other die. It’s, that’s not a new thought. We’ve been thinking that ever since we started the group. 6 (39m 19s): The way the recent spate of deaths is, I don’t know, it’s, it all seems so much more apocalyptic. Like the story doesn’t seem to have this relationship to effective treatment or a cure anymore. It now seems to have this relationship to death. It iss it ends with everybody dying. We’re the last person alive and Chelsea please turn out the lights. 3 (39m 40s): And so like there was a bunch of like faggots in the nineties who were like, had death sentences and then that freed them up to do like wild and crazy things to like, so that others might live. And the, the wildest part of all of it is that like some of them ended up living Peter Staley is obviously still alive and thriving and that like, but there was just this sort of like gravity of like, we’re done. But like, rather than being defeated by that, channeling that into like a higher purpose and a higher and a higher power so that like, so that others might live, 5 (40m 17s): I’d like to close with words written by fellow AIDS activists Vito Russo, when future generations ask what we did in the war, we have to be able to tell them that we were out here fighting and we have to leave a legacy to the generations of people who will come after us. Remember that someday the AIDS crisis will be over and when that day has come and gone, there will be a people alive on this earth. Gay people and straight people, black people and white people, men and women who will hear the story that once there was a terrible disease and that a brave group of people stood up and fought and in some cases died so that others might live and be three. 3 (41m 6s): Yeah, there’s something there. I I think your point is well made too, because it’s also like, it’s not a surprise that the people that were willing to follow Jesus are the fishermen and the tax collectors and the people with nothing else to lose. Right? Because they didn’t have to give up anything. And I think that’s why we so often see stories in the gospels of like rich people who walk away sad. I, okay, like you’re welcome, you’re welcome to join the movement. This is what it’s gonna take. And people are like, oh actually, like I don’t, that’s that’s not really what I wanted. I wanted to like make a couple donations out of my excess and then go home feeling good about myself. 3 (41m 53s): And, and so I think that that is like the continued call of like, this isn’t, this isn’t a, a cheap faith, this isn’t an easy answer. And it’s also I think why so many people are much more interested in getting lots and lots of people to pray a prayer and to think of all of their religious, you know, commitment as Bible reading, prayer, going to church because like what is really required is marching upon the halls of power and saying, this isn’t working like this. You’re, you’re hurting people. 3 (42m 35s): And, and we’re not gonna stand for that. And that is a much scarier and much more demanding and much more, it requires a lot more of us to do that work. And so, yeah, I I think that that for, for anyone with any type of privilege that this call is even harder than it is for people who have already lost so much. Yeah. Jesus is here to make your life easier as a much easier sales pitch than like follow Jesus. It might get you in prison or killed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think too though, this is also a moment where we have so much to learn from the people that have come before us, right? 3 (43m 15s): Like I think about those act up protesters. I think about Philip and Daniel Barrigan who burned draft files in Vietnam very much out of a sense of their religious fervor, right? Their, they were quoted as saying better, the better the files than the bodies of children. Like it was very much out of their faith that they went and did this act of destruction and desecration and they paid for it, right? They spent years upon years upon years in jail over many, many different prison sentences. ’cause they kept getting, as soon as they got out, they kept going back and doing more destruction. 3 (43m 57s): But I do think that like this also really confronts people who are like, well, we, we just need to be respectable. Respectable. We just need to vote democratic. We just need to like do the nice political things that make us good citizens. And it’s like, actually maybe what you’re being called to do is commit some treason and burn some draft files and find other ways to make some holy trouble. And that that’s, that’s what it is to take up your cross. The Queer Theology podcast is just 8 (44m 31s): One of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 4 (44m 38s): To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll 8 (44m 46s): See you next week. Libsyn Ads (44m 50s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libs syn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com Today. The post Called to Treason, Matthew Chapters 14-16 appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re diving into one of their most asked-about topics: sex, relationships, and faith. Building on years of listener questions like, “Is it okay to masturbate?” “What does the Bible say about premarital sex, polyamory, or kink,” we explore why so many of us seek definitive answers and how that impulse comes from an evangelical mindset that treats the Bible like a rulebook. As always we invite y’all to move beyond arguing Bible passages toward a deeper, embodied understanding of faith, sexuality, and ethics that is grounded in consent, respect, and self-awareness. Queerness, desire, and faith are not at odds. God’s love is not conditional, and living faithfully means embracing complexity, doing inner work, and claiming your inherent goodness.  Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. 1 (10s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 2 (13s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from 1 (17s): Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how 2 (23s): Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. 1 (32s): Alright, for this episode, our little two part series on sex and relationships, we want to take a look at a lot of the questions that we’ve gotten over the years about sex and dating and how that intersects with Christianity. A few years ago, my, one of my, my then boyfriend, we were having a conversation about sex and, and queer theology.com and he said, wait, people like strangers on the internet ask you if it’s okay to masturbate and then like what you say back to them matters to them. And I was like, yep, that is, that is something that happens. And so today we wanna look at sort of like broadly at questions like, what does the Bible say about sex? 1 (1m 15s): Is it okay to masturbate? Is it okay to have premarital sex? Is polyamory okay? Is kink okay? Like, is like insert x, y, Z thing that you might want to do with yourself, with and or with someone else inside and or outside of, of the bedroom in some form of like vaguely sexual and or romantic and or kinky context. And I think that, right? Like say Shea, you have a, a master’s in divinity from Union Theological Seminary in the city of New York, like one of the, you know, premier seminaries in the world. And so like, I’m sure you could give us like a verse by verse breakdown or like an issue by issue breakdown of like, here’s like what the Bible says or, or doesn’t say about masturbation or sex before marriage or sex outside of marriage. 1 (2m 1s): And we’ve actually gone through a lot of those in our tricky questions about sex workshop, which like looks at each one of those questions that are all user, all listeners submitted questions about sex that we really sort like a one question at a time. But what I want to explore today is like what the, sort of like what happens after that af after you sort of, because I’m sure you’ve had a lot of these conversations. What happens when you tell someone your perspective on what the Bible says about X, Y, z sex related things? So like the, like, then, then where does that leave them? I, 3 (2m 40s): I think that this is so fascinating, right? Because in many ways this is the same conversation that we have around the collaborative passages. Yeah. Right? Yep. And, and so we’ve got a workshop on that one too, collaborating the clobbers, which which looks at each of those versus and takes them one by one. And, and what we have found in both cases is that like the, this idea is stemming from, I, I think an, an evangelical impulse and frankly an evangelical like teaching that there is a, there is indeed a Bible verse for everything. And that if you can just find the right Bible verse, you will know what to do with your life. 3 (3m 25s): And so the first thing to say is that like, again, the Bible was not meant to be read in that way. Like that is not how we use the Bible. And so even if you can find chapter and verse, that’s, that’s probably not the best way to read scripture. And what it does is that that still like puts the kind of locus of authority outside of us, right? It, it gives away our ability to really think through who we are as people, what we need and what we want. And, and puts that kind of puts it out there somewhere. 3 (4m 6s): Like someone can tell us what we can do and if we just follow the rules will be okay. And like the hard thing about life, and I think the hard thing about faith is that like, it’s not just about following a set of rules, right? That, that the Christian life is about an orientation towards being concerned with the things that Jesus and God are concerned about. And that sometimes the ways that we live them that out is gonna look different than the ways that other people are gonna live that out. Right? And that’s, that’s complicated and it’s messy and it requires a lot of us to, to wade through all of that. 3 (4m 46s): I mean, just thinking about like outside of the realm of sexuality, like the way that we live out our Christian ethics under capitalism, it’s gonna look different, huge for different people, right? Yeah. And it’s complicated and it’s messy. And there are moments where we are making the best decision with what we’ve got at the moment, even though it’s not the best kingdom of God decision, right? And like, it, it gets complicated. And so all of that, to bring us back to sex, to say that like, these questions about what you can and cannot do are more complicated than, yes masturbation is 100% always okay, or no, it’s not right. 3 (5m 28s): That sometimes the, the answer might be, well, it depends. And like, what work have you done to think about when is it right for you? What are the ethics that you’re trying to live out? And so instead of, instead of going to a chapter in verse, it’s a, it’s a much more complicated and broad idea of what does it look like for you to follow your faith with your body in relationship to your sexuality and in relationship to other people and their bodies and their sexuality. 1 (6m 5s): Yeah. One of the things that we were really clear about when we started queer theology.com, god, at this 0.9 years ago, was that we don’t want folks to substitute what their pastor told them about their Bible for what we tell them about the Bible. That we think part of about being like honestly a person really like a Christian, definitely, but also like a person in general is like figuring out how do you relate to the bible, to faith, to spirituality, to your sexuality, to your gender, to your sexual and romantic life that like, it’s important for you to claim that because like we can tell you like, it’s okay to masturbate usually most of the time probably, or like, you know, well when you’re talking about sex outside of marriage, like what is the other person? 1 (6m 48s): What, who is the other person? Like what are they, what are they wanting? There’s lots of these questions, you know, like how to, like what place that sex have in your life, how does it make you feel about your body? Like what work are you doing on that? There’s like you were saying, it’s, it’s so, it’s like it’s, there’s so many factors in it and that it’s like, I don’t know, like it’s a lot easier, right? If to to to say like, don’t ever have sex or like true love weights or it’s also a lot easier to say sex is always good all the time and you should have as, as much as you can all the time without any regard for anyone else. Like, but like, I don’t, like, I don’t think, I don’t know any progressive Christian really that that’s like saying that, right? Like, like the both, like the beauty and also the challenge of being a, like intentional Christian, a progressive Christian, a queer Christian is that like we recognize that like life is complicated and that like sex can be messy and that like relationships always have the possibility for like beauty and grace and creation, and they also have the possibility in them for harm and destruction. 1 (7m 53s): And so like navigating that tightrope like is tricky, but that’s also like what it means to be human. And so I think like when I hear folks asking about, you know, is it okay to have sex before marriage? What does the Bible say about masturbation? What does the Bible say about king? Usually what’s happening is if you’re asking that question, there’s some sort of like nagging in you of like, is this okay? Am I all right? And that usually comes down to like a fear of like hell or a fear of like pa like pissing off God, if I step out of line, God will remove god’s love from me. 1 (8m 35s): Or if I step out of line, I will go to hell. Or maybe not specifically connected to anger or damnation, but just sort of this, this, this fear of like, there is something inherently wrong or disordered about me is wanting to have this type of sex or sex in this type of way or sex with this person. Like inherently disordered like, and I, and I, like I am 37, I am, I would call myself like an ethical slut. I’m like polyamorous. I’ve been in a stable long-term relationship for almost 14 years now. Like, and also sometimes I’m like, Ooh, like I want someone to put something in my butt. 1 (9m 16s): Like, does that make me gross? Or you know, and like when it’s a stranger, like on the internet, it’s like, sometimes it’s much easier. But sometimes my, my partner who I’ve been having gay sex with for 14 years, there even sometimes I worry like, oh no, like, will he still love me if like I want to bottom for instance, you know? And like the answer to that is not in like, I don’t know, Lamentations 1218 or like pick up. I like the, the like the answer to that question is like not going, am I okay? Am I lovable? Am I whole and worthy? 1 (9m 57s): Like, there’s not a chapter in verse for you specifically. I think that there are lots of chapters and verses that talk about sort of like the divine spark in us and God’s love for us and our place in the world and our interconnectedness. But like the answer to like, am I going to hell, will God hate me? Am I gross? Will my partner stop loving me? Is not going to be solved by asking like, what does the Bible say about masturbation or what does the Bible say about kink? And so part of it is like figuring out the work that you have to do before you can even hear and appreciate the answers to what does the Bible say about sex or kink or consent. And that’s like a lot of self work. 3 (10m 36s): Yeah. And it’s, it’s like I, I think sometimes people think that just because I’m a super nerd about the Bible, that that’s why I’m always telling people to learn to read the Bible better and, and encouraging people to like do the journey into the Bible course. And, and it’s both a yes and right, like, yes, because I’m a nerd and because I find it really fun. But also that I do think if you learn to read scripture better, it, it takes away some of the angst around trying to find a chapter in verse. And along with that, I, I think what what you were just talking about is so profound and beautiful, and part of what that makes me think of like is if you can start to shift your own posture away from inherently disordered to inherently good and trusting that like you are already good, that you reside in goodness that God loves you, then it opens up a space for you to have a conversation about, okay, if, if like anything that I do is not gonna cause me to lose God’s love or to lose my inherent goodness, what might I then want to do with my body? 3 (11m 54s): How might I want to explore? What might that look like for me? And it also allows you to have grace for yourself in the moments when you try something that doesn’t work or that you didn’t enjoy or that doesn’t feel good, right? And I, and I think that like we often talk about, listen, if it’s based in mutual respect and consent, like have at it. And, and I think that there is a, there is a moment to say that here too of like, it, if it’s based in mutual consent and respect, you’re not gonna lose God’s favor. But it’s a, but it is a lot easier for us to say that than it is for you to have done the work, to actually believe that, to believe in your inherent goodness, to, to move from a posture of fear to one of love, right? 3 (12m 49s): And I think that that takes work that’s not just around sexuality. It’s, it is around like, how do we read the Bible? How do we understand God? How do we understand Jesus? How do we understand salvation, right? Like all of these huge theological issues that rear their ugly heads when we’re in bed with someone and suddenly that shame comes up, right? And it’s like, it, it’d be nice. I would love to, to be able to say like, there’s just a simple formula. There’s a prayer you can pray, there’s a verse you can read. Yeah, there’s a lecture you can listen to by a pastor and that’s gonna make all of this go away. 3 (13m 32s): But the truth is like, it, it, it’s not that easy and it takes work, but also it is possible. Like I, I, I mean I grew up in indoctrinated in the height of purity culture in a fundamentalist evangelical church. And like I have worked through shame, right? So I’m, I it is possible yeah, to do that work to get there, but it does take time. 1 (13m 60s): Yeah. There, you and I are both huge like book nerds. And so, you know, like we get, like you were saying, there’s not a formula, right? Like, it’s not just like, do this or do that. And so like we, you know, there’s not any like one book or one lecture or one prayer or one checklist that’s going to, to sort of like unlock this for you. Like you were saying, you have to take ownership over this process. So I like, I, there’s been a few books for me that have along the way that have been helpful. And it’s funny because like most of these books are not even about sex, but they get to that sort of underlying question of like, you know, like, am I okay? Am I good? Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu, damaged, good by Dee Anderson, original Blessing by Matthew Fox can sort of all get at, you know, those, that first and last one or like really get at those questions of like, who are we? 1 (14m 47s): And, and like how does God relate to us? And also what has happened for me in the past and what I’ve seen for folks that we’ve worked with inside of Sanctuary Collective or in our courses or our coaching is that like the, the reading only gets you so far, right? Like at some point you have to like, put the book down and like put what you’ve learned and to practice and you have to like get back into your body. And so if you like, wanna like read these books or read other books, listen to our podcasts and then like figure out how to take action on your own. Like, if we could leave you with one thing, it would be to not just like consume the information, but to take action on them. And if you find that you’ve like read the books and you’d like, listened to the podcast and you’ve like watched the sermons and you’re still getting like, you’re still feeling shame, you’re still feeling uncertain, you still have all these like big questions that are unanswered or these big uncertainties, reach out to us and we will talk with you about some ways that we can support you in moving from like thinking and worrying to living out your ethics and your values and sort of getting back in touch with your body and making this as like a self-directed process. 1 (15m 54s): So you can email us connected queer theology.com or send us a DM on any of our platform social media as a YouTube and Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. 3 (16m 4s): And I think this is just another moment to, to remind us that all of all of the work that we do is integrated, right? The integration of our sexuality and gender identity into our spirituality, the way that we read the Bible, the theological work that we do, the justice work that we do. Like it’s all, it all comes together and it, it’s all about getting us to integration and to health and wholeness and that all of these pieces work together. And, and it’s impossible to separate out one and hope to find wholeness. And so, so do the work, do it all together, do it in community with us. 3 (16m 45s): We’re rooting for you and we want to see you healthy and well and whole. 1 (16m 49s): Amen. 4 (16m 51s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To 2 (16m 60s): Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. 4 (17m 7s): We’ll see you next week. Libsyn Ads (17m 12s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libs in ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com Today. The post Still Scared About Sex and the Bible? appeared first on Queer Theology.

In this episode, Fr. Shannon talks with the Rev. Dr. Justin Sabia-Tanis. He is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. from the Graduate Theological Union in Interdisciplinary Studies in addition to a Master of Divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a Doctor of Ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. We explore Justin’s journey as a transgender man of faith, his groundbreaking contributions to trans theology, and the evolution of queer and trans thought within the church and academia. Justin shares the inspiration behind his influential book on trans theology, and reflects on the growing richness and diversity of trans religious scholarship. The conversation also delves into the intersections of art, spirituality, justice, and education, highlighting how creative expression and community-centered leadership can transform theology and the world. Find more of Rev. Dr. Justin at: https://www.unitedseminary.edu/academics/faculty/justin-sabia-tanis/ Grab a copy Trans-Gender: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith Injustice at Every Turn A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. 1 (10s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 2 (13s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from 1 (17s): Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how 2 (23s): Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. 3 (33s): Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Guest series. Today we are so excited to have the reverend Dr. Justin Ana, who is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation Program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his PhD from the Graduate Theological Union in interdisciplinary studies, in addition to a master of divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a doctor of ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. As a pastor, he served congregations in Boston, Honolulu, and San Francisco, and was a director of Leadership Development for Metropolitan Community Churches. He is now with the United Church of Christ. 3 (1m 13s): In his prior work, he served as managing director at the center for L-G-B-T-Q and gender studies and religion, CLGS, and directed communications for the Hawaii Equal Rights Marriage Project, the National Center for Transgender Equality and out in equal workplace advocates. He has taught at the University of Arizona, Pima Community College, IFF School of Theology, and Pacific School of Religion. He now lives in Minnesota with his husband Henry and their two dogs. Well, Justin, thank you so much for, for being willing to have this conversation and, and do this podcast today. You are one of the, I think, very first like trans theology books I ever read. 3 (1m 55s): So it’s super fun to to be in conversation and to introduce more people to you and your work. So thanks for being here. 4 (2m 2s): It’s wonderful to be here. Great to have continue our conversation. 3 (2m 6s): Yeah. I would love to just start by asking you a, to tell us a little bit of your story, a little bit of who you are and how you got to where you are now. 4 (2m 18s): Sure. So I’m a, a transgender man, identify queer. I’m currently the director of the social transformation program and an assistant professor at United Theological Seminary of Between Cities, cities, which is exciting for me. So how I got here, or blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, this part. Alright, so how did I get here? I was raised, I was always raised in progressive faith, so I feel lucky that I’ve always brought to my religious practice the sense that justice is a part of being, being a Christian, I’ve never been afraid of hell or any of those things. 4 (3m 3s): I’ve only known a faith that’s been affirming. So when I came out as queer in 1985, when I came out as trans in the mid to late nineties, I was never concerned about whether I was acceptable in God’s eyes, but rather I also recognized that there were so many people around me who were struggling with that question and also that there was a lack of, there was a lack of information about, about these questions that there was not theology that was written. So I will say that I, I have always been drawn to a radical vision of Jesus as someone who pushed the envelope and challenged us to live in ways that are more compassionate and more compelling, more inclusive to live God’s dominion among us. 4 (3m 59s): And I would say that this was honed by discovering feminist theology when I was in college, and just the ways it challenged the, even though it had a progressive upbringing, the way it challenged the conventional religion religions to say there’s more to the story, there’s more inclusive, there’s always more love, there’s always more liberative possibilities that we’ve been exposed to before. So I, you know, I practically devoured, you know, writings my Carter Hayward and Katie Canon and, and other theologians from that roseberg and other theologians from that, that era, they, that really shaped my understanding, it’s not only can you come from a faith practice that’s affirming, but you can expand it. 4 (4m 49s): So I became a, I became a pastor in 1990 in Metropolitan community churches and MC also very much honed by let’s have a liberative faith. Let’s, we don’t have to, we don’t have to agree with what people always told us things about. We could go back to the Bible, we could go back to our traditions and say, where, where’s God’s love in the middle of this? Or where is, where are the liberating possibilities? You know, I was involved in, in both AIDS ministry and yeah, involved in Act Up and some and other movements for queer liberation. I also, I like a lot of politics with my religion, a lot of religion with my politics as a pastor, and then later as an, as an advocate in Washington DC with the National Center for Trans Equality. 4 (5m 39s): And they’re doing a lot of legislative work, policy work communications about why L-G-B-T-Q people in general and trans people specifically should have the same rights as everyone else, that we should have a society that addresses the gross inequities that brought about by oppressive systems, and particularly the ways in which those are com compounded by racism in our society. Yeah. And then as a result of actually working in the National Trans Discrimination Survey, doing the research there, I found, huh, that being able to be a researcher and have a, have a doctorate was actually really helpful in doing that work. So I went back to school to get a PhD and that’s how I found my way back into academia and working in a seminary now. 4 (6m 26s): And I don’t know of any other trans people who are on the regular tenure track faculty at a Christian seminary in this country. So I feel really lucky to have to be, to be where I am in working with the incredible faculty and students that I’m working with. 3 (6m 44s): That’s awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I think, I think so much of the work that we see happening now in trans theology, you know, stuff and, and stuff that I’m seeing kind of in the, in the popular imagination, like God creating outside of the binaries and genesis with marshes and dusk and all of that stuff, all of that really started with your work and your book. And I, I would love for you to talk a little bit about the book that you wrote and, and what inspired that book that it, it’s to my mind still like the best kind of intro to trans theology and, and, and understanding trans issues in the church. 3 (7m 24s): So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about your book. 4 (7m 27s): Sure. So I, this is my confession that I’m a super duper nerd, right? So I have a doctorate ministry degree in addition to a PhD because why not have the match set? So I wrote that book as part of my doctorate ministry dissertation at San Francisco Theological Seminary where they had, you know, and that now there are trans students who certainly have gone there years since, by the time I think they didn’t know quite what to do with me in this topic. And I do wanna do, wanna mention that I, that I feel like I built or that work owes its pre has predecessors in the, as I said, in the work of feminist theology, really helping me think about gender as a sec, as a category, but also to the writings of Victoria k Kowski, Vicki Kowski, and of Virginia Malco in gender. 4 (8m 19s): So Vicki writing several chapters that really looked at e or looked through a trans lens. She was a, she was a theologian and a pastor before she became the first elected trans judge in California. But, so I just wanna acknowledge like that, the work part on that, but then also on what, what is not here. You know, I think I kind of naively thought when I, you know, you know, when I came out as queer, a lesbian in the, in 19 9, 19 85, when I was 1919, you know, suddenly there was a whole, there was, there was support groups to go to and there were pride events and there were community groups and there were books. 4 (9m 2s): And I think in the nineties when I came out, I was sort of naively assuming that there would be something similar for trans people. And at that time there really was not, and the same was true of theology. So I thought, okay, well what is the book that I wished were here? And that’s what they set out to write. I’ll say, I think my, yeah, I think my two contributions to field one is really pushing this, like, it’s the, the more you push into it, the more you think the idea of Genesis one being about a binary is ludicrous because none of those things are binary. So in fact, like the really cool parts of creation are those liminal spaces. And I think that’s, I think that’s important. 4 (9m 47s): In fact, I was thinking, I was recently, we were driving up on the north shore of Minnesota, long Lake Superior on vacation earlier, and the University of Minnesota has a department called, there’s a sign out front, like the bu that that building is houses the Department of Limnology. And I have no idea what that is. No. Like, you need to look it up. But I feel like that’s queer, trans and trans and non-binary theology’s, like limnology, that’s our, our space. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think, I think that that was an in insight that I really wanted to add into the discourse is really pushing that question of like, if this is true, then what does it say about all the, how do we read the whole rest of the Bible in, in light of God’s decision to create diversity in such like flamboyant, abundant ways, including things that are not easily categorized that the impulse to categorize as human, the impulse to mess up, you know, to blur all the things and, and live ology, whatever that is, that’s the divine piece. 4 (10m 52s): And then the second thing I think, you know, the, the insight that was really helpful for me, I, I read an article about bio Anglican priest was a, who’s a trans woman in Carol Stone. And she talked about, she was only two things she was sure of in her life, her, her, her calling as a priest and her calling as a woman. And she never expounded on that. And she died of cancer I think shortly thereafter. But that really stuck with me. And then, you know, I think this idea that gender can be a calling sets us outside of the whole debate about, was I born this way? Was I not born? Like people could, people could be who they are, they can follow follow the path that’s correct for them, that’s insightful for them. 4 (11m 33s): That’s life giving and meaningful for them. Just like you follow any other calling that it can have, not only can it have different permutations or ways it lives out, it must d resisting the, let’s put everybody in a box. This is the trans narrative. No, it’s like vocation we’re called to, called to be our authentic selves. And that looks as different as there are people. 3 (12m 6s): Where do you see kind of trans theology moving, you know, since you wrote that book into now and, and even into the future? 4 (12m 14s): I guess there are sort of three things that I see. One is I think people have dealt more, delved more deeply into the understanding of passages that may be used against trans people in the Bible. You know, and I really, I sort of did a starting start on that in the book. Other people have taken it much further, you know, the fact that the Bible is actually, it has mixed, it’s, I think it’s often portrayed that the Bible is anti-trans in the way that the Bible is anti-gay or something. And I think that it’s gender, the Bible’s really a complicated subject. So, you know, so I’ve seen people explore that in, in some deeper ways. 4 (12m 58s): There’s also certainly research the US trans survey in 2015, for example, used questions about religion. So we’re getting some of the research and some, the writing I think gives us a broader spectrum of what does it mean to be trans, a trans person of faith? What are our religious paths look like? In what ways, you know, there’s just some beginnings of data from research as an area. I would love to see more what does trans religiosity or lived experiences actually look like. And then I think there’s also, you know, there’s certainly expansion of multiple faith perspectives. You know, I love the work that Chris Page has done with, you know, with trans of really, what, what does the interfaith trans movement look like and how do we learn from one another? 4 (13m 42s): And then, yeah, I guess what what we, I think there’s also, I guess where I see some of the cutting edges is what does it mean to read, read stories in the Bible, or read or think about positions of faith that apply to everyone? What does it mean if we look through our particular lenses on, on them, you know, what is a trans reading of particular, particular passages and how does that help elevate the idea that this, this is a story for, for everyone who finds it meaningful as opposed to, you know, trans people are ungodly and over there and the rest of us get to have the Bible. 4 (14m 28s): Like that’s not actually how Jesus taught about it, so not the message. So yeah, I guess those are, those are, you know, I, I think what I think what we’re seeing is that is the rich develop development of voices, the addition of other, other stories, you know, biographies of trans people of faith. You know, I I I see a, I see a broadening and deepening of those categories, and I think we’re just beginning to really then, you know, I’m waiting eagerly and I see this in some of my students, you know, what, is it true with someone who’s really lived a non-binary existence for, you know, for a couple decades gonna write about theology? What, what if you came out as non-binary where you’re in junior high, junior and you have lived that way? 4 (15m 13s): Like, what are your theological insights that are really different than mine? As a, as a someone who transitioned, for example. And like, I’m really eager, I, I’ve seen a startings of that, but I’m really eager to have someone really do a theology from that perspective. I think that’ll be tremendously exciting. 3 (15m 27s): Yeah. I, I think we’re, we’re, we’re still in a place where we so many of the people that are are, that are living non-binary and, and even trans lives that have transitioned as children, like we, they haven’t really come of age yet, or we’re just starting to see them come of age. Right. And I think that’s gonna be a totally different experience that’s, that’s gonna be really beautiful. 4 (15m 50s): And they’re making great contributions too, already with like, their stories in media. So like what is it gonna be look like when that translates into theology? So yeah. 3 (16m 0s): Do you have a, or a particular trans reading of a scripture passage that, that is exciting to you right now? 4 (16m 10s): Yes. So I’m, I I’ve been working on the story of the Good Samaritan for a on eus that’s being edited by Katie Valentine and Joseph Marshall that we just, we just submitted them. So I’m, I’m really excited about that. But I look at the story of the Good Samaritan because we are so, well the first reading idea of it is that, is the Good Samaritan is a trans person because we are so used to looking the story of the Good Samaritan associated with the way word good with Samaritans, even in laws, right? You can be a good Samaritan in the law, but in fact, Jesus’ listeners hated Samaritans, right? 4 (16m 54s): They thought they were blasphemous and unworthy and unfaithful. And there was these skirmishes that happened where people are destroying each other’s religious sites and so forth between choosing Samaritans. And Jesus had even tried to go to a Samaritan village a few past, a few chapter chapters of before, and he said his disciples to make a, prepare a place for him and the Samaritans refuse to do so. He can’t go there. And the disciples say like, give us the word well, rain fire and b brimstone down on this village for not accepting you. And Jesus says, not only does not have anything to do with that, like she says, like, wipe the dust for your feet, like move, move on. Like, let it go, let it go people. 4 (17m 35s): But then, you know, in this, this story that happens very, he lifts up the Samaritan as the spiritual exemplar that everyone has to follow. Like these people that they were like, the disciples were like, let’s, let’s kill them all. And Jesus like, Hey, and not only that, but I’m gonna tell you about this Samaritan who did this amazing thing, and the person that you were supposed to follow, the one who shows mercy, is from this category that just rejected me, right? So it’s this whole turning of the world. So in that chapter, I argue, you know, for a reading for someone for whom trans people are viewed in some category as sinful or generically icky or whatever, ’cause the religious language of about us as tends to be vague and or the anti tends to be sort of vague and about more about discomfort of the person than about actual theology. 4 (18m 37s): But like, if that’s the person, the person that you thought was unfaithful and gross and unworthy is the one who shows mercy, that’s where you look for mercy. But I also, I also wanna that I think about the story a second time there, what if the a trans person who is the one on the side of the road who’s been beaten by robbers, which is a much more likely scenario, of course, given the tremendous impact of violence and discrimination in our community, es especially for trans women of color, and the helper is someone flying a don’t tread on me flag with a red, white, and blue pickup truck. 4 (19m 20s): You know? So, you know, listening to conspiracy radio, what does it mean to read this passage and try to get ourselves as close as we can to Jesus’s intent, which is to shock us into saying, we look not at categories of people, but at their merciful actions. And that’s where you find the dominion of God. That’s where you find the person you’re supposed to follow. You know, how do we use it to really shock ourselves in that way, you know, and that Jesus takes this, this risk actually telling the story like that would’ve really upset some of his listeners in order to make this larger spirit in, in order to guide us to, towards a spiritual insight where we’re able to love our enemies or we’re able to show deeper mercy to one another. 4 (20m 8s): You know? So, so that’s, that’s the passage I’ve been wrestling most, most with. I’m thinking, how do we take something that’s so familiar to people and say, what does it look like if we’re, if we’re viewing these characters from trans perspectives? So 3 (20m 20s): I love that. I, I think some, so much of our work at Queer Theology is, is helping people to re-encounter texts that have been so familiar as to have lost their edge or, or their shock value, like you said. I think for those of us who like really grew up steeped in scripture, it’s hard to re-encounter texts newly. 4 (20m 46s): Yes. And, but I think think, I think that process that, that you’re describing is so important because it helps remind us that we’re heirs of this tradition. Like we get to have the best spiritual insights, spiritual growth that we can have, right? We get to, you know, in a cosmic sense, Christ is concerned that we also get that met. We get to learn from the story of the Good Samaritan too. And that by saying I’m not, I, I’m entitled both of the stories about gender and to the stories about anything else in the Bible or in my tradition, because I, because I I’m worthy of, of that attention is an important message for us, I think. 4 (21m 30s): So I, I think that is a strength of what you all do. 3 (21m 34s): Yeah. I, you know, I think what you just said is really vital that we, it it’s not just the passages about sexuality and gender that we can look at from a queer or trans perspective. It’s all of it. And that there, there is work to be done in, in all of these different places, and that’s really, really important. 4 (21m 54s): Yeah. 3 (21m 56s): What, what recommendation would you give to someone who maybe is like, brand new to trying to read scripture from their own identity? Maybe they’ve just come out or maybe they’ve, they’ve only been taught to read scripture one way. Do you have kind of a start here piece of advice? 4 (22m 17s): Well, that’s a great question. I do think that there’s, I mean, the first thing is to truly recognize the location that you’re standing on. Like what is the identity from which you are reading this? And I mean that in a multitude of ways. I mean, not just, I mean both around sexual orientation, gender identity, but also around race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, right? Who am I and how am I looking at this text? And in what ways are, in what ways are those identities helping me see greater insights to the text? And in what ways are they, do they create a barrier that helps me see the text from seeing the text clearly? 4 (22m 58s): You know, are there things that those have precondition me to not to come to the text, you know, but I, I, I guess the best advice I think that someone once gave to me that, that I give to other people in reading the Bible, which is particularly the New Testament, is to say, pick a book, particularly the gospels, particularly Matthew, mark, Luke, and read it through as a story from start to finish, rather than, I feel so many of us have been trained to like, pull out this little passage, and that’s our Bible study or whatever. And they’re actually stories and they come together differently when you read them as a story, you know, or you read the letters as letters, you read the acts as a sort of a, Hey, this is what we did. 4 (23m 41s): And I think we’ve gotten unhelpfully away from, you know, the many, many cultures that continue to emphasize the importance of storytelling as a way to learn spiritually. And then you can go back and pull those pieces apart and read the lectionary and do all those things later. But, you know, think from where I’m sitting from, who I’m, what does, what does the story have to say to me, and let me just let it flow over me. And that’s where I would start. 3 (24m 9s): Hmm. Love that. Whatcha seeing, you know, you’re working in, in a seminary in, in an urban area, what are you kind of seeing as, I, I don’t wanna say trends in theological education, that’s, that’s not quite what I’m getting at, but like, you know, as, as people are, are exploring theology and are maybe interested in working in the church, but maybe actually are interested in getting a seminary education and doing something completely different, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing from your students right now? 4 (24m 43s): Our students are amazing. I just love them. So I say a couple of things. One is, you know, particularly being in the Twin Cities where George Floyd was murdered, and where, which is at least a catalyst for a new level of awakening in this country to facts that have always been there, of course. But this increasing awareness, and I think we’re beginning to recognize the, the absolute necessity, the moral necessity, the spiritual necessity of doing anti-racist education, of being an anti-racist people, by which, I mean, not that we’ve arrived, but that we’re struggling every moment against the systemic forces that exist in our society that continue, continue to, you know, overwhelm us with racist messages and fighting back against that. 4 (25m 33s): But that’s a spiritual, and people I think are grasping that you can’t do theology unless you’re grappling with these issues. And I think that’s really important at this moment that, that, that awareness must not be a fleeting thing, but embedded in theological education, I also definitely see what the trend you’re talking about in terms of people may be going into religious vocations, but they’re also very much going into nonprofit work, activist work, chaplaincy work, you know, other things. And then the, the lines of traditional ministry are blurring. But I think, you know, I, I see we see more and more of our students who are there because they recognize the need for change in the world, and they wanna do it grounded deeply in their values. 4 (26m 20s): You know, these, these upcoming generations, I think take laudably take very seriously the question of a meaningful life. You know, I grew up in the 1980s, that was not a great time for like, you know, money is not meaning, right? I sort of felt swimming up streamers. Now you can talk with, you know, you could have a conversation about what does it mean to devote yourself to that which you you value most, which has, will leave the place better than you left it. You know? And we certainly have a, I mean, one of the things we, we pride ourselves on and or, you know, strive for, but also our students value is I guess a lot of places. And it’s very easy to do injustice education here. 4 (27m 1s): Here’s how you can spot systemic racism in housing. Here’s how you can identify a sexist statement. It’s very different to talk instead about, like, it’s not enough that that’s like, that’s step, that’s the pre-step. The, the, the real work begins when you say, how am I an effective change agent in line with my values in, in ways that nudge justice a little further down the road? And how do I get a bunch of companions to come help me do that thing? So I, you know, I would say as someone who’s studied leadership and movements for quite a while, this, this idea of collective and communal leadership strategies where, where you get a bunch of companions and you work together to change some things that’s being birthed right now, I think is, you know, I mean, and has been for a while, but again, it’s just, I see a sort of more of an elevation of, of, of, that I think is really exciting. 4 (28m 2s): I think we’re getting away from ego-driven leadership, or we, or we’re recognizing that ego-driven leadership is ineffective, and if we wanna change the world, we have to have to do a community based piece. So, you know, I think in the progressive seminar, people are taking that, that seriously. And, and I think we’re still learning how to integrate into theological education questions of sex and gender, sexuality and gender identity. And even, I was talking with a friend when I went to seminary, I graduated in 1990, I was sure that the question of inclusive language would’ve been, like, settled a really long time ago, and it’s still not right. 4 (28m 44s): Yeah. Churches are still having like conniption fits about, you know, calling Godmother or using non-binary lang know calling God they, despite, you know, the centuries of money of discussion about the Trinity. So even though it’s more biblically accurate, so, you know, I think there’s, we have a lot of theological work to do there as well. And theological schools I think need to, need to focus some on how do we help congregations move along with those pieces. But 3 (29m 23s): Yeah, there, there does, I mean, this is from my own seminary experience too, of, of a bit of a disconnect between, between I guess what I learned and how then I was taught to, in, in have that conversation or not taught frankly, to have that conversation with congregations. And I think that that’s still, I, I hope that that is a gap that is getting closed, but it, it feels really vital. 4 (29m 50s): Yeah, I was, I’m really excited because I’m teaching queer and trans theologies this fall, and I’ve been working with the Open affirming coalition, the ucc and, and about ways that with QB Floyd in particular, about how we can make that class count for students to be facilitators of those congregation conversations in their congregations, right? So like, how do we not make this just a, and I’m great grateful to them for this, for, for raising this with me so that we, that we’re really being very intentional about closing that gap. So I think it’s part of, it’s in seminary education, making sure that we’re training people to lead being effective leaders. 4 (30m 32s): But we’ve also been involved in some research at United, what are the felt needs of clergy between what they’re being confronted with, both with in terms of racial justice, also ec ecological necessity right now, climate change and extreme weather, like these were things that I certainly wasn’t prepared for to deal with in seminary or was in theoretical way. So what are the gaps that clergy are experiencing right now? And what is the responsibility or the possibility of the seminary help helping people make meet, update their skills, update their theology or, or re you know, reconceive it in ways that are, that are useful and effective to them, their congregations, their communities. 4 (31m 22s): And so, 3 (31m 23s): Yeah, I would love to know from your experiences that this is a bit of a change in direction in our conversation, but, you know, as someone who, who came out and transitioned in the nineties, you know, where, where have you seen the movement, the trans and non-binary community? Where are the shifts you’re seeing? What is really exciting you about what you’re seeing now? Maybe what concerns you too? 4 (31m 49s): I, I love the, I love the ever expansiveness of people’s identity and the ways to claim that identity. And, you know, I was on the tail, tail end of the arrow in which you had to, you were expected to be straight after you transitioned. You were expected to be, you know, never tell anyone ever again. Like all of those kind of things. Fortunately, I had a wonderful and queer therapist and you know, I, I never got that, but my peers did from the, you know, that you had to, you know, I remember people, you know, you go to support group and people would share like this, these are the lines you have to say to your therapist, you know, I’m gonna kill myself. 4 (32m 34s): I’m a man trapped in a woman’s body, whatever. Like, you know, like specific lines you had to say. So you would meet those expectations. So like, the fact that we’ve let that go, like, or, or mostly moved past that, not entirely. The other trend that is so, oh my gosh, that just brings so much joy to me, is running into children, young children whose parents believe them when they say that they’re trans, when they understand the themselves differently than their body appears when their parents love them and support them and make sure they’re in schools that are, that are safeguarding their kids’ rights and taking them to pediatricians who, you know, who offer the family options. 4 (33m 16s): Like the fact that, like, it would never, never have occurred to me to tell my parents when I was wrestling this, I mean, it was not even a, a thing. And my parents were progressives like, you know, my dad in particular dealt very well with my coming out, but coming, I never me when I was a child. So that, and see the, which parents are protecting their children or c keep my from being transgender, I my child’s life in danger because loving my child comes first. So that’s, that’s an amazing thing. 4 (33m 56s): And I would also say that we’re like the growing recognition that, or the, the growing level of, of the diver, the diversity of within the movement, the fact that that trend trans organizations are paying attention to their leadership, that they’re recognizing that that people of color have had extensive trans organizations all along, are helping ways to, to, to, you know, that we’re struggling with ways to address racism within our organizations. That we’re, we’re recognizing that the, you know, when we safeguard the rights of those in our community who are most vulnerable, then we all are in a much safer place. 4 (34m 40s): You know, I think these are things we have to continue to stretch ourselves on to say, if we believe in, if we believe in liberation, if we’re doing this for the wellbeing of trans people, then, you know, racism and poverty and all of those issues have gotta be on our leading, our agenda ending violence, you know, because the, the rates of violence and discrimination against white trans people is astronomical, and then it’s compounded so much racism. So yeah. So just I think paying attention to that. So I think there’s this simultaneously, like we have to record with ourselves. We have to think of what is a, just an accurate representation of trans people in our rights looks like. 4 (35m 21s): But also, you know, the fact that like most of the kids in our church youth group talk about knowing someone in their high school who’s trans, like as if this is like a duh thing, you know, or non-binary. Like, it’s just, it’s such a different world than I ever imagined. So 3 (35m 40s): Yeah, I, I think that, you know, the statistics were even just a couple years ago that what 70% of of people in the United States didn’t know, right? Anyone who is trans. And I, I just think if we do that report again in even three years, that number’s gonna be 4 (35m 59s): Very different, 3 (35m 59s): Drastically smaller. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to ask like, what, what are you working on right now? What’s, what is occupying your time? What are you excited about? 4 (36m 9s): I just finished a rewrite of the chapter I did on Philippians and the Queer Bible Commentary, and I’m, and the article on Transform antics on the, about the Good Samaritan. I’m also working on my PhD dissertation was about queer artists who’ve been doing, using spirituality in their work for decades. And I profiled four of them. But I’m really interested in this question of how queer artists depict religiosity or spirituality that’s outside of religious institutions and the ways in which we can use queer and trans culture as a lens to understand spirituality in a different way. 4 (36m 53s): And particularly like, well, both how we can document what that is in as a good in and of itself. This is a spiritual expression of what it means to live differently, to love differently, to be who we are, but also what can release institutions learn, learn from people who reject the hypocrisy of the church or the, the rejection of the church, but maintain rich spiritual, spiritual lives. And so I’m working on getting that towards, towards publication. And while I ended up using gay and lesbian artists, so much of their work, actually d deals with the, with the liminality of gender and the ways in which gender is differently expressed as well. 4 (37m 43s): So it’s, it’s, I understand why we te when we’re doing like trans, why we tell people the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. But this is another category where, in which actual human beings living this, I’m like, muddied up the water, like own other people. Yeah. So I’m really excited about that in the ways in which there’s a, there’s kind of resilience and profundity and faithfulness that you see in, in, in queer art about faith that, that I, I wanna lift up and celebrate and, and think of, think of the artists as, as a field, as a particular kind of theological tool. 3 (38m 24s): Who are some of the artists that you looked up? 4 (38m 26s): So there’s a gay artist in Mexico City named, who has this fascinating story I wrote about it in, in a book called Unlocking Orthodoxies. But he was a young gay child in rural Mexico and envisioned the Virgin Mary as his mother, and Jesus as his father, as a, like an alternative loving family to the complexities of living as a, as a gay boy. And so, so he always had this family to turn to, and he has this particular devotion to the Virgin Arian is one of his paintings called Bene Blessings, in which he and his, his lifelong partner are standing with their arms around each other. 4 (39m 8s): And the Virgin Mayor, Virgin Guadalupe on her Thema Tillman on their traditional image is standing above them reigning the, the flower. The roses are just raining down over that blessing man. You know, so what does that say about like, the blessings of the virgin on, on their love, you know? So that was one of the artists, Alma Lopez from Los Angeles, who did this amazing series on queers, queer saints, among other things, using butch women, gender diverse women, to look to explore saints who are sort of fell outside the gender binary, like St. Wil Fortis and some of these like weird stories of gender transformation in, in, in the Saints. 4 (39m 53s): And Elizabeth Olson Wallen, who’s a Swedish photographer. So I look at a series that she did in Jerusalem in which people were deli pictured, deliberately defying the, some of the things in the Bible, like, man shall not lie with a man with showing to men out in public under the walls of Jerusalem. You know, they do these sort of gorilla actions, which people would run in and take the picture, and then they disband. And then the last one is down How, who’s an artist in New Mexico who did a series about the Greco Roman pantheon using gay cowboys, exploring this sort of role of like this myth, the mythos and the figures. 4 (40m 39s): He also did the stations of the cross that took place of the New York peers in the 1970s, kind of as a metaphor of it’s out of time, but as a metaphor for the AIDS epidemic as well. But there’s a number of o other artists that I looked at along that I studied and wrote about in the process along the way, all of who had sort of for that project, I, I simply focus on people who’ve been involved for a long time, who have, they have a long canon of stuff and people have written about them, which is what you need for your PhD. Yes, there’s a lot of other artists, like we’re having an exhibit with Daniel ar the Venezuelan artist who does a lot of, to this campaign called Noso. 4 (41m 23s): I’m Not a Joke, which does these beautiful brightly colored, affirming images of LGBTQ people, same sex, love transgender people as this way of positive affirmation. So we’re gonna have him, his work exhibit at United in the Fall. And I’m really excited about, I’m excited about being in seminary where we have these great gender queer and queer images of, of, you know, men with beards made of flowers and all, you know, all these kind Yeah. Self affirming images up on our walls. It’d be a great way to, to teach. So 3 (42m 1s): Yeah. One of the things that I just, I love about the work that United does is their emphasis on the arts and the, and the, and the kind of conversation between theology and arts. Can you speak a little bit about how you see, how, how you see art and theology going together, and also how those two things either together or separately can really work to bring about change in the world? 4 (42m 29s): Absolutely. I think art offers us imaginative possibilities to see things that don’t yet exist. And I think to be able to show, in particularly in the work I’ve done with queer art, art, but it’s true in other ways as well, to show queer and trans people as holy, for example, as saints, as worthy of sacred art, sense of a radical theological message that you’re used to being, seeing people who you know, who look like it everyone else or who were not included in this. 4 (43m 12s): You know, David Vo the artist, you know, did this great image of Jeana as a saint. So just, this is a long trend, but he was trying to uplift to someone who’d been a sex worker like himself as, as a holy figure. So I think this is this really great way of like sacrificing people, but also envisioning a world in which those people are saints or those people are, are holy and sacred worth, you know? So it can envision a different world. And I think the arts also have this really important function of making that which is invisible and ineffable. Something that tangible that we can see, right? So if you draw a picture of God, you’re drawing something that you cannot see and cannot touch into an object that’s actually in three dimensions made of Atos that’s solid, you know, that you can put your hands on. 4 (44m 2s): And I, I think in that way, I think this is where, you know, the, the Orthodox tradition of icons is sort of this portal between the holy and the, and I think that’s true of, of probably, of all art and particularly sacred art, but it creates this way of, of making that which we cannot see into something tangible and real that we connect with. And that’s really powerful. But yeah, I love the, the program that my colleague Jennifer O. Freeman has, has done there, and Cindy Johnson who has been there before. And, you know, they’ve always emphasized this, you know, the art should be something that, that changes, that changes us, changes the social landscape, changes us as, as spiritual people, that, that introduces ideas into our collective moral imagination. 3 (44m 54s): If someone wanted to find your work or find you on the interwebs, where, where could they look? 4 (45m 1s): They could look at United seminary edu on the faculty page, and there I am. That be one place. 3 (45m 9s): Great. And we’ll put, we’ll put a link to your, your book in the show notes as well. That’d be 4 (45m 14s): Great 3 (45m 18s): With everyone, we are doing a rapid four, four questions rapid round so you can answer with one word, with a sentence, whatever comes to you. But the first one is, what’s your favorite thing about your identity? And you can define identity in a multiplicity of ways. 4 (45m 36s): I appreciate about my identity as a trans man that I was raised with a socially student of a girl, which helps me become a gentle man. The kind of man that, that, that I wanna be. So I’m grateful for that. 3 (45m 50s): If you could tell young people one thing, what would it be? 4 (45m 54s): To craft their life with abandoned and care. And you’ll not regret the things that you, the adventures that you choose to go on life is an adventure. 3 (46m 8s): What is your favorite portrayal of trans men in the media? This could be a book, a movie, 4 (46m 14s): You know, what comes to mind first is just the lived community of, of people. So probably study art. I’m much better with like, the real flesh of blood people. I, I would say the, yeah, 3 (46m 26s): Love that. And then finally, what’s something that’s bringing you joy? Lately, 4 (46m 31s): We moved two years ago to Minnesota, and I treasure all the time that the opportunities to be outside here. So the incredible trees is incredible land here. And at this exact moment, my garden, which is bursting with zucchini and tomatoes and carrots and all the things. 3 (46m 48s): Love it. Well, thank you so, so much for, for doing this and for being in conversation today. It was really lovely. 5 (46m 56s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To 2 (47m 5s): Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. 5 (47m 13s): We’ll see you next week. Libsyn Ads (47m 17s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a preproduced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com Today. The post Gender is a Calling with Justin Sabia Tanis appeared first on Queer Theology.

For this episode, we’re diving into the Gospel of Mark. We unpack why Mark was likely the first Gospel written, who it was written for, and what was happening politically under Roman occupation. Drawing on scholarly interpretation, we look into how Mark’s storytelling and its urgency, as well as its focus on common people, challenge the Empire and center the marginalized. This perspective also redefines discipleship as active resistance through themes like repentance, liberation, and community transformation, showing how Mark’s “good news” remains a radical call to action for today’s world. Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. 1 (10s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 2 (13s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from 1 (17s): Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how 2 (23s): Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Ology podcast. This week we are gonna do a deep dive into the gospel of Mark, and I am so excited. This is 1 (40s): Me too. 2 (41s): This is where I get to be like super nerdy and this is my favorite stuff in the world. And so, yeah, so I’m excited to dive in. I, I feel like we’ve talked about this a lot, but I know that for me, I was not raised with looking at the historical context at all of the Bible where even reading the gospels right, we like try to jam all four of them. 1 (1m 7s): Yep. Yeah. Together 2 (1m 8s): Into one coherent narrative. And so we are not gonna do that on this, this podcast. We’re really gonna dig, take a deep dive into looking at just what does Mark say and why does Mark say it and all of those things. And I’m, I’m super excited. Brian, why are you excited to talk about the gospel of Mark? I 1 (1m 28s): Mean, for a lot of those same reasons, I think before I, so I studied film production in college, but I also studied religion in college. And when I added religion as a second area of focus, my parents were like, when we said double major or minor, we meant like math or business, not another, not useless, but not another soft area of study. So I am, I stu, this is like my jam. I studied religion in undergrad. One of my classes that I took was actually just the entire name of the class was called Jesus. So I kept saying I have to go to Jesus class. And I think my friends all semester long thought that I was like, it was actually like religion 4 0 3, like the world of the New Testament or something like that. 1 (2m 11s): And they were, and it was like, no, it was like religion 4 0 3 colon, Jesus. So I’m really excited to sort of like be nerdy about that. I also, like you, I think before, before studying this had a similar approach of the gospels of like, they all tell different parts of the same story and we can sort of like smush them all together to get a coherent picture. And you know, even just sort of like a, an activity pageant at church has the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of Luke smush together and there’s no births and they’re totally, totally different, but they get smushed together in our popular imagination and there’s no birth story in in Mark, which we’ll get to. 1 (2m 54s): But, so I’m excited about that just from like a nerdy sort of like I get to dive into this world of academia that I I that I find it fascinating and hopefully make it interesting for y’all. But I think also on a personal level that this sort of work of seeing the gospels for what they were and what they were intended to be and the ways in which they are different and the sources that they draw upon and that then like the ways in which they go on to influence other sources and our theology and our lives, it was sort of like a process of like demystifying my faith and what I believes in about the Bible. 1 (3m 38s): And I think like through the process of demystifying it, then I emerged on the other side of that with a much more like I was able to like re-size it and like demystify and then like make it sacred again that this, we don’t want to just stop at facts about Jesus or about the gospel of Mark, but like, I think like the question that sort of underlies all of this is like, and then so what, like what does this say about our lives, our world, our communities, our faith, our spiritual practices? 1 (4m 20s): And like when I’m able to see the gospel of Mark more clearly, I can like more fully enter the world of both Jesus and Mark and then bring Jesus un mark and that message along with me to the current millennia and it becomes like a divine voice still speaking. And so I think that we’re hoping to merge the head of this with like the heart of faith. And so that’s why I’m excited about this. 2 (4m 51s): Yeah. So this week we’re gonna look all around the background information, talk a lot about some of the political and historical context, some of the unique features of Mark, of which there are a lot, and also dive into some of the major themes. And then over the next several weeks we’re gonna pull out some of those themes by looking at specific stories in the gospel mark. And so I wanna start by saying that it’s really important that we look at things like the background information, like when it was written, to whom was it written, because that really impacts how we read and understand these texts. 2 (5m 35s): And I also wanna just name that we are indebted to other scholars that have done this work. We’re relying a lot on Che Meyer’s book Binding the Strong Man. If you want a deep and nerdy dive all into the gospel of Mark, that’s a great book. We’re also using the new interpreter’s commentary for other background information. And so we’re really drawing on that. We’re not just like making shit up, right? This is drawing on a lot of scholarly research to look at these different things. And as we talk about and read the gospel of Mark, I we’re also focusing just on Mark. And the reason that that’s important is that this author, whoever wrote Mark, is telling a really particular story in a particular way to particular people. 2 (6m 24s): And so when we bring in things that we know from the other gospels or we try to, you know, mash them all together, we’re actually doing ourselves and the text to disservice, like this was meant to be read on its own as a very particular thing. And so that is how we’re gonna do it. 1 (6m 42s): And also at the time that Mark was written, there weren’t yet other gospels. Like Mark was definitely the first gospel written. And so like the, the, the original audience so would not have been able to even bring in ideas from the other gospels because like they had not yet been created, 2 (6m 57s): Though they may have had other oral traditions. Sure, sure. And so Mark is definitely like choosing from the oral tradition specific stories to tell a particular narrative. And the other thing that we need to remember as we look into all of this is that there are two times operating at the same time, right? There’s the time about which the author of Mark is writing. So Mark is writing about Jesus in a specific time, but there’s also the time in which the author of Mark is living. And those are two very different times. And as we’ll see, mark is bringing in things from his time and telling stories about Jesus in his time to like make meaning today, which is what we’re gonna do as well. 2 (7m 49s): But it’s important to, to be able to separate those things out and to realize that when Mark quote unquote makes mistakes that often he’s making them intentionally. So, alright, let us dive in to some of this background. So Brian, you already said Mark is the first gospel. Can you talk a little bit more about that and when Mark was written? 1 (8m 14s): Sure. So I I I, before we started recording this episode, I was like, I’m pretty sure it was written like around 70, around 70, like post Jesus common era. And then I confirmed that that is the one when most scholars believe that that was to be written. So that I, I written in Greek probably maybe with some quotes in other languages and I think I now I would have to like brush up on this, but I think like some folks think that Mark was writing more to a Roman or a Gentile audience and like making that case or at least sort of like writing in the context of Roman occupation of Jerusalem and the conflict that was brewing there. 2 (9m 9s): Yeah. So Chen Meyers thinks that Mark has written prior to 70 during the revolt. So after 66 prior to 70, that’s the window that he’s, that he’s working in. I think other scholars have, some have said slightly past 70, right? All of, yeah, 1 (9m 30s): Yeah. 2 (9m 30s): All of those things we don’t know entirely. Yeah. And 1 (9m 33s): So let’s just for for a second like to, for folks who don’t know, like what happened in 66 and then in 70 that like in 66 common era there was sort of like a Jewish insurrection in Jerusalem to reclaim the holy land as you know, like the gospels are set in in time when Jerusalem is like still under Roman oc occupation. How to relate to the Roman occupiers is a big theme definitely in Mark and in other gospels as well and in other writings of the Christian New Testament. And so seized re seized Jerusalem in 66, held it for a while and then in 70 common era the Raman army was able to quash that rebellion, completely destroy the temple with everything except for the western wall, which is sometimes called the whaling wall, which is now a sacred site in Jerusalem. 1 (10m 21s): That’s all that remains of the second temple and expel the kill and expel a large portion of the Jewish folks from Jerusalem and even Israel larger than that. And sort of a return to exile. 2 (10m 39s): Yeah. So this idea of Roman occupation, this idea of the temple state and, and the political economy of that time and the ways in which some of the temple was in collusion with Rome. Mark critiques a lot of that. So this is all like really important background to understanding how to read Mark and what Mark was trying to say. And I just wanna name that like we’re talking about Mark as the author of Mark, but like the reality is that we dunno who wrote Mark, it was probably not one of the disciple mark’s. 2 (11m 21s): Mark was a super common name. Lots of lots of biblical texts are written and named after people, but we know that those people didn’t write those. And so as we talk about Mark, we are not talking about a specific mark, we’re talking about whoever the author was of this gospel that has been named after Mark. But Che Meyers and other scholars think that Mark wrote this text in or near Northern Palestine, that it was written to a mostly gentile audience because some of the things that Mark describes, he just gets wrong and he was Jewish or from the Jewish community that he wouldn’t have gotten them wrong. 2 (12m 6s): So that’s just important to note. I wanna read this from binding the Strong Man because I think it’s, this is actually really fascinating and also really important. He says Mark is written in Greek, but a notoriously poor Greek peppered with Latin and Semitic syntactic in idiomatic intrusions indicating that Greek was Mark’s second language. And assuming that Mark writes from Palestine, this is not surprising, but the things that are sprinkled in the Latin sources that are are sprinkled in the gospel are all military, judicial or economic terms, which is really fascinating to me. 2 (12m 46s): And he’s pulling them in because this was a, a people and a population that’s under Roman colonial administration. And so all of these different terms that have become a part of their language have come because of occupiers, right. Of occupiers that have taken over this land. And so when he’s using those terms too, he’s making really specific political and military digs, which I think is fascinating and we’re gonna, we’re gonna really dive deep into that next week, but just know that that is kind of happening and, and pay attention to that in the background. 2 (13m 32s): Alright. We’ve talked a little bit about some of the political and historical background around the temple. What else, Brian, do you know or wanna bring out about this, the period in which Mark was writing? So again, not the period in which Jesus is living, but the period in which Mark is writing about when Jesus was living. 1 (13m 54s): Sure. So one of the things that I want to bring out is I think a actually in this case applies to both the period that Jesus was living and the period when Mark was writing that, like around the first century was a time of like a lot of, like, there was a bunch of different Jewish sex that were all sort of like wrestling together with like, what does it mean to be a Jewish people in general? And in particular, what does it mean to be Jewish in oc like under Roman occupation, there had been folks who had claimed to be the Messiah in the past that had like attempted to lead revolts, things like that. 1 (14m 37s): Also that there were sort of like three main groups at around that time. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Enes that like folks might have heard of. And I think it’s like, I just like wanna underscore that like we, sometimes we Christians sometimes use like pharisees like in a sort of a derogatory sense. And I think it’s like really important to name that like modern rabbinic Judaism is like descended from the Pharisees. And so it’s not like this, they’re not these like evil people from the past. It’s like a rich and vibrant and justice oriented culture that continues to today. I was saw like a rabbi who was saying, who was proposing that perhaps Jesus himself might have been a Pharisee and it was like an inter, a lot of his like digs against the Pharisee were not, were like coming from place of like in intra community arguments about like, what does Jewish identity mean? 1 (15m 33s): And so I think like that sort of like background of this time of like, what do we do? Like how does a temple fit in like the ways in which Rome had been occupying, not just Jerusalem, but also sort of like influencing temple life, temple practices, things that were displayed at the temple, I think was a big source of conflict. And the sort of like how do we respond to Rome like assimilation, armed resistance, nonviolent resistance, like all of that is sort of like swirling around, especially in the context of if we take sort of Che Meyer’s dating of like post the start of the revolt, pre destruction of the temple, like we’re like in the middle of it. 1 (16m 20s): And these theological claims that folks are making also have deeply like political consequences also have like are can be like life or death. Like are we going to get slaughtered? How do we survive? How do we survive this occupation? How do we survive into the future? And being such a small minority that has dealt with, you know, exile and occupation in the past this was sort of like, you know, I swear, but other times we both in the past in the, in the present, like the future of all the Jewish people kind of like potentially hangs in the balance here. 2 (16m 57s): Yeah. And, and that there’s also, you know, there’s not a separation of the political and yeah. The spiritual that, that you cannot read any of these actions that these various Jewish groups are taking as separate from religious religiously motivated action, but also like the political and the religious is so intertwined that we can’t separate them out. So as we’re reading, you know, and we’re talking about political meanings, it, I I think some folks are like, well, you just, you’re always turning the gospel into a political text and it’s like, yeah. Because it’s like these things are so intertwined and, and it’s important that we not separate them out. 2 (17m 43s): I think too, to your point Brian, that th this is, this had been an ongoing process of small groups taking sometimes symbolic action, sometimes political action, sometimes violent action as a way to kind of fight back against their oppressors. And that we are gonna see more of that in, in mark. And that mark is actually also encouraging people to, to do more of that. And that many of the things that he attributes to Jesus, many of the actions that he attributes to Jesus are in line with these symbolic actions that other groups have been taking. 2 (18m 24s): So Jesus is coming out of a line of people that were already doing this work. It’s not like, it’s not like nothing was happening and then Jesus came and st things started to happen. Like he is part of a system and a and a and a people that are already fighting back. And so, so some of the question is how shall we fight back in line of what Jesus is teaching? One of the stories that Myers tells in his book, which I think is really, really fascinating, is that there was a group that, that fought back that they engaged in this action and the first thing that they did was burned the public archives where the records of debt were capped. 2 (19m 9s): And it’s 1 (19m 9s): Like, oh, I love that. 2 (19m 10s): Right? Like this, this is a, a fight back in a, in a spiritual sense, but it’s also very much a protest against economic oppression. And, and like those, those things are all intertwined and I think that that’s, that’s really beautiful and we’re gonna find a bit more resonance as we, as we dig even deeper into this. 1 (19m 32s): And that was like, like a Jewish resistance action, not a specifically like Jesus followers. 2 (19m 40s): Correct. Yeah. 1 (19m 41s): Because at this point Christianity doesn’t ask, doesn’t exist and that like, I mean at around 70, like into like the hundreds, like continuing on into like is like, this is when Christianity is beginning to start to pull away, but at, at this point it’s still very much not a separate thing yet. 2 (19m 59s): Yeah, yeah. And that all of these things, like so much of, of the conflict that’s happening religiously is also a conflict about class, right? It’s about violence. Yeah. It’s about oppression, right? You can’t, you can’t separate those things out. So let’s talk a little bit about Mark. There are some really unique things about Mark, especially in line with the other gospels. You mentioned earlier, Brian, that there the, there’s no birth narrative. What do we do with that? 1 (20m 35s): Yeah, I, so I think like the first thing is that like, it, it just wasn’t important to Mark. We do see in, so some of the, right, some of the letters in the New Testament from Paul, et cetera, likely date to around this time perhaps before it. And they, there are some references to sort of like the, you know, either like virgin things like that. But we don’t have, you know, the robust, the robust birth narratives are really in Matthew and Luke. I likely come from an oral tradition that had been circulating before they were written down there, but at least for Mark, he’s not concerned about about Jesus’ birth and kind of just like jumps right into the action of it all. 1 (21m 21s): And I think like that’s really interesting, especially as the first gospel to be written that for the first one it really wasn’t that important. 2 (21m 31s): Yeah. And, and like you said, he jumps right into the action. That’s kind of one of the characteristics of Mark, that it’s, it’s really rather spartan. There’s not a lot of detail. He, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of like, Jesus did this and then he did this and then he did this. And so because of this, when Mark chooses to tell a similar story twice, which he does in, in a couple of different places, we need to really pay attention to those stories to pay attention to the differences between them and why Mark would have chosen to tell them a, a similar story in two different times. Mark also uses a really interesting literary device often where he starts telling a story, he interrupts that story with another story, and then he returns to the original story. 2 (22m 18s): He does this all over the gospel. And so that’s something to pay attention to, to, as you’re reading. Also, I, I think it’s really important to note that when Mark calls his text a gospel, he’s actually starting a new literary form. That that form in antiquity didn’t exist before. Mark wrote it down that a gospel was a verbal proclamation, often a political proclamation. And so for Mark to do a written story and to call it a gospel, he starting something entirely new, which I think is really fascinating and beautiful. 2 (23m 2s): And it’s something that we miss, right? Because we, we have four gospels, we know a lot about the gospels, we talk about it all the time. But to know that he’s actually starting something new is really cool. And 1 (23m 13s): I think it’s important to like dis to distinguish like gospel from history, right? Because like history written, history existed and even like written history is part of the Hebrew scriptures. Like parts of like, this is history, this is like myth maybe. And that the gospel is something else other than a strict history. It’s, you know, a religio political propaganda in some way. That it’s, it’s, it’s making a case for something not simply recording it. It’s not a history book. 2 (23m 44s): Yes. And that the other thing that’s really unique about Mark is that Mark’s story is for and about common people, which was also different in a lot of texts that we find in Kodi that were written about, you know, the upper class, the ruling class royalty. Here we have a text that is very much centered on fishermen and people who are poor and that that’s also a unique thing. And so that’s, that’s something to pay attention to with Mark 1 (24m 18s): Too. And that’s also kind of in, its in a way like making a statement, right? That like these people and these stories like deserve to be written down in the same way that we write about emperors and generals. And that like, it’s kinda like pointing a finger and saying like, this, this here this is, this matters. Yes. 2 (24m 38s): Yeah. So there are a lot of major themes in Mark, but many of them kind of circle around each other. Mark talks a lot about discipleship, which we’re gonna talk more about next week. He talks a lot about debt and literal economic debt and purity, which is interesting. We’re gonna talk more about purity in week three. He also talks about repentance. And I, I think it’s important, you know, often when we hear about repentance, especially for those of us who grew up in evangelical or more conservative cultures, we think of repentance as a spiritual thing. 2 (25m 23s): I mean, how were you taught about repentance, Brian? 1 (25m 26s): Yeah, I remember like there’s this, this sort of like visual representation of like turning away, right? That like, it, like it definitely, I think for me there was some element of like a change of action follows a change of heart that like, ’cause it was like, part of it was trying to get around this whole, which we talked about with our salvation stuff. Like what is salvation? And if you say this prayer and you accept Jesus, like, can you be unsaved? But then like if your actions are bad, maybe you never were really a Christian. And so like for me there was some element of like your actions should reflect your repentance to sort of like prove that you like really mean it. 1 (26m 12s): But it was definitely like, but like the actual sort of like theologically significant event was sort of like the reorientation of your heart. And then from that, the like appropriate actions will follow. And also for me, the appropriate actions that follow in that process definitely didn’t have anything to do with debt. Like, like economic debt or Roman occupation or violence. It was like sexual purity and just like that, like the word discipleship was a word that I, that I heard a lot growing up and in, in that church world, but it was like really vaguely defined like what discipleship meant. 1 (26m 57s): And it was like, you know, because I remember like, leave your nets behind, you have to actually like take action and like do stuff in the world. But it was like, I think the actions that we were supposed to be taking was like reading your bible daily and like praying and like being a witness in your secular workplace in some way so that people would be like, oh, he’s so professional and so nice and kind and really honors his word and doesn’t gossip. So like look how godly he is. Like maybe I want a taste of that. Jesus. Also, it wasn’t ever to sort of like change material conditions of, of the world. It was like this sort of like personal piety that then you sort of like project it onto the world to then attract people to their own sort of personal piety. 2 (27m 44s): Yeah. It’s, it’s very much like me and Jesus, right? It’s, it’s me and God. It’s, it’s an individual process of conversion. It’s not a political or communal process of of conversion. Yeah. Which is very different than what Mark is talking about when Mark is talking about repentance, mark’s talking about turning away from empire, which is a very different, a different thing 1 (28m 9s): For a lot of conservative Christianity. Repentance is turning towards empire it seems like. Yeah. 2 (28m 13s): Right. And, and along with this, this theme of repentance is Mark’s theme of resistance, which is about, you know, both, both churning away from empire but then also being actively resisting of it and to Meyer says to find meaningful ways to impede imperial progress, right? Yes. In which is, which is awesome and we’re gonna talk more about that. Mark is also talking a lot about liberation from specific structures of oppression and, and he’s also talking about the ways that when you are under those structures of oppression that it embeds into your spirituality and your personality. 2 (29m 6s): And so like when we’re talking about getting freed spiritually, it’s also about getting freed politically. Like for Mark, these two things are together. Yeah. Which I think is you 1 (29m 20s): Can’t have one one or the other in many ways. 2 (29m 22s): Exactly. Yeah. So Meyer says thus the per the purpose of the author of Mark was not to merely present certain ideas about Jesus or to warn his readers against some group distinct from themselves and this is what’s key, but to lead his readers through a particular story in which they discover themselves and thereby change. And like That right there is huge and we’re gonna keep coming back to that. The other, just a couple more kind of main themes of Mark that, that his gospel is structured around three kinds of symbolic action. 2 (30m 3s): There are lots of journeys across the sea of Galilee representing the imperative to overcome the social structures of segregation between Jew and Gentile. So that’s one, there are lots and lots of healings of social outcasts, which were representative of the imperative to overcome the social structures of class division. And there are multiple feedings of poor masses in the wilderness representing a practice of economic sharing. So as you read the gospel of Mark, pay attention to journeys across the Sea of Galilee, healings of social outcasts and feedings of poor people. Those are things that we’re gonna talk about a lot. 1 (30m 43s): Yes. 2 (30m 44s): And one more thing from Myers. He says these three narrative strands also represent the key aspects in Jesus’s Messianic program confronting the old order, constructing an alternative order, and bringing liberation to the poor. 1 (31m 0s): Hmm. Oof. Yeah, 2 (31m 2s): Good stuff. 1 (31m 3s): Yeah, I think like as you were sort of going over those sort of like three kinds of symbolic actions, I was like thinking about like, sort of like flashing in my head was all the various stories of the Bible that I’ve heard about Jesus crossing the Sea of Galilee or Jesus healing this or that person or the various like fishes and loaves stories feeding the people. And I’m like, oh yeah, like I know all of these stories individually, but like when you just sort of like shine this particular light on it, you’re like, oh yeah, like this is what’s happening. But we, I had been so conditioned to read them as like little personal narratives or it was, everything was pointing towards Jesus as like a superhero, like glowing God walking around on earth with magic powers that I like missed the like ways in which all this is absolutely present and like why like Jesus could have healed anyone or could have fed anyone or could have journeyed anywhere. 1 (32m 9s): Like what does these actions in these contexts mean and why is Mark highlighting them? 2 (32m 20s): Yeah. And I think like for me when I started to uncover some of this, it was like, oh, oh, this is the good stuff, right? Yeah. Like this is, this is a much more inspiring and powerful and challenging call to be involved in something than like pray a prayer in the right kind of way and get, get your, get outta hell free card. And that it also, like there are so many things that are really, really subtle that we miss if we don’t know all of these contexts. 2 (32m 60s): And also that because they’ve been missed, have been taught in really, frankly, often the opposite way than they were intended to be taken. Yeah. We’re gonna talk next week about, about the thing that you mentioned earlier. You know, leave your nets and follow me and like the actual meaning of that is gonna blow your mind and it’s so, so excited to talk more about it. But it’s like I, that’s why it’s so important to do this work and to really dig into this because it totally changes how you read and frankly for me it, it makes it so much more exciting and, and I’m excited to, to keep, to keep diving into this. 1 (33m 41s): Yeah. So I think like when I think about sort of like my journey through faith, I think the, the way that I first approached the Bible was to take just like everything at face value and usually face value was also like the face value that the pastor told me was face value and just sort of like accept it all as like this is like literal history actually happened. This is who the, Jesus was. Like we have this like divinely inspired book great. Like we can know exactly who Jesus was. And then that I like started to look at the bible and scripture and translation and sort of how it was passed along and like copied and recreated over the years. I like started to bring a more sort of, you know, critical eye to it. 1 (34m 24s): And like one of the things that we did when we, when I was stu like studying Jesus and in the undergraduate was like, this is the work of the Jesus seminar is sort of like trying to figure out, like trying to get at like the historical Jesus. So I don’t know if for folks are familiar, Matthew, mark and Luke are sometimes called the synaptic gospels. We, there’s a lot to that. But so we like look at like what stories are in Matthew, mark, and Luke. I’m like, that means something that they’re like in all three as opposed to just two or just in one or trying to compare the sayings of Jesus to other sayings of Jesus to try and figure out like what did Jesus most likely say versus like maybe Mark added this or maybe Matthew embellish that. 1 (35m 8s): I think you can get a Bible written by the Jesus seminar that has like varying shades of red letters from like black to dark red to light pink or whatever. That’s sort of like there sort of this Jesus seminars assessment of like, Jesus almost certainly actually said this. Jesus almost certainly didn’t say this to try and like get at the real quote unquote Jesus. And I think I’ve like since moved a little bit beyond that. So like we can never know for sure what this person named Jesus in 30 CE did, said, went if he existed, like I guess maybe, probably, but like we can’t ever know for sure that. 1 (35m 56s): And so all of Christianity is like based on what these earliest Christians thought and believed about Jesus and what they felt was important and what they passed on to us. And so not that it like, doesn’t matter like what Jesus actually did, but that like what Mark was saying about Jesus and the claims that Mark was making, just like the claims that Paul was making, just like the claims that Luke and John, all these folks that are writing those claims about Jesus in their context, I think is like just as important as whoever this person was that we can’t ever really know. 1 (36m 40s): ’cause there weren’t video cameras back then. And so like wrestling with what we do have is like super, super important. 3 (36m 47s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 4 (36m 56s): To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. 3 (37m 4s): We’ll see you next week. Libsyn Ads (37m 8s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com today. The post The First Gospel appeared first on Queer Theology.

We had the pleasure of speaking with activist and author, Edafe Okporo. Edafe was born in Warri, Nigeria. He migrated to the United States in 2016 as an asylum seeker and is now a refugee of the United States. He is a global gay rights activist, the founder of Refuge America, and one of the country’s most visible voices on the issue of displacement. We spoke about the issues of detainment for immigrants in the US, especially difficult for trans people seeking asylum and LGBTQ people. Edafe’s story is inspiring and powerful, reminding us that our work for equality must include marginalized people in the immigrant community. Edafe is the author of the book “ASYLUM: A Memoir and Manifesto.” He brings a personal commitment to his refugee work and the premise of his book- that home is not where you feel safe and welcome only but also how you make others feel safe and welcome.   Learn more about Edafe: Web: https://www.edafeokporo.com/ Linktree: https://linktr.ee/edafeokporo IG: https://www.instagram.com/edafeokporo Order your copy of ASYLUM, A Memoir & manifesto: https://www.edafeokporo.com/book To learn more about the immigration detention system in the U.S: https://www.freedomforimmigrants.org/ https://www.refugeamerica.org/   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Rubrik (0s): AI agents are everywhere automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com. That’s R-U-B-R-I k.com. American Giant (30s): With the state of today’s economy, it is more important than ever to invest in products that last for years to come. As the season shift and get cooler, make sure your closet is stocked with durable layers that stand the test of time. From American, giant American giant’s, clothes work harder and are wearable season after season, their greatest hoodie ever made is made of the highest quality materials that are cut and sewn right here in the United States. So your investing right back into your local community. Choosing American Giant means taking a stand for American manufacturing and hardworking Americans, something other mega corporations don’t care about. From fleece to knit, all in a range of colors. For versatile daily wear, American Giant delivers everyday pieces designed for everyday life. Feel the difference of quality made to last close from American Giant. Get 20% off your first order with Code Staple twenty@americangiant.com. That’s 20% off your first order@americangiant.com with code Staple 20. 3 (1m 40s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 4 (1m 43s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts 3 (1m 47s): From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how 4 (1m 53s): Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are continuing our series on angelic troublemakers. Last week we talked to a veteran of the fight, and this week we’re talking to someone who’s newer. We’re delighted to be interviewing Afi Ro AFI is the author of the book Asylum, a memoir and manifesto. And in it he brings a personal commitment to his refugee work and the premise of the book that home is not where you feel safe and welcome only, but also how you make others feel safe and welcome. 4 (2m 34s): Aada Porro was born in Wari Nigeria. He immigrated to the United States in 2016 as an asylum seeker and is now a refugee of the United States. AFI is a global gay rights activist, the founder of Refuge America, and one of the country’s most visible voices on the issue of displacement. Leading an organization with a vision to strengthen as a place of welcome for the L-G-B-T-Q, displaced people, a graduate of a NoGo State University and the School of business at NYU. He currently lives in New York City. This is an amazing conversation. We’re so excited to invite you in to learn more about a dafis work. 5 (3m 12s): Well welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. So excited to dive in and dive, hear more about you and your story and your work. I would love to, to start out with just asking, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and and what that was like for you and if, if there was any kind of religious upbringing that was a part of that. 6 (3m 36s): Hi, my name is a, I grew up in war Nigeria, the south of Nigeria. My family come from the African traditional religion of Du State and they were worshipers of Shang Western Godde. My father still practiced the African traditional religion until 1999. So in 1999 there was gonna be the Y 2K, the dawn of the new millennium. So on December 31st, 1999, I still remember I was like nine years old. We all run into a church. It does the church in my community like a big Ezra. 6 (4m 21s): We went there, we were praying till 12th and 12th. They like, happy New Year, you survived the white two. This is not a distraction. My father left the African traditional religion and baptized as a Christian, but my mom in 2003, I baptized as a Christian too and went through the confirmation process and I was taking communion until I was matured and I became a Pentecostal. I left the Anglican church when I was like 16 or so. 7 (4m 57s): Yeah. And what was it that sort of drew you from the Anglican Church into the Pentecostal church? 6 (5m 4s): It’s interesting because I didn’t know the driver in particular. When I left, I went to a boarding school and I got admitted to college at 17 or so and everybody in my college were going to the Pentecostal church, so I decided to join them. Sure. And you know, if you are going to become a priest, you have to go a school and it’s a long process, but to become a pastor in the Pentecost Church, you have to tongues and you do to six weeks seminar and you’re a pastor. 6 (5m 46s): And I wanted to be a pastor because I felt like me as a gay person, that I was possessed and maybe if I become a pastor to end every condemnation that I’m supposed to face and become this straightforward person. And yeah, so I, I left to join the Pentecostal church with my student groups and later became a pastor in the Pentecostal church because it was like easier a process compared to the Anglican Church. 5 (6m 19s): And what was your experience as a pastor in the Pentecostal church? 6 (6m 23s): At the beginning it was great. If you can lie, if you can hide, you’re in a perfect place. I, I love the Christian religion. I still do up to this day because I’ve gone through a lot of persecution in my life. But I, I think that the Bible has become like a comforter in times of crisis in my life because there are scriptures I could go to that reminds me that there are people who have had great suffering compared to what I’m going through. There are people who lost their entire family and all their goods, all their animals, everything, and they still survive. 6 (7m 8s): And there are people who face great challenge like David and they still like Joseph and they still end up being rewarded for being nce with the religion. So when I was in the Pentecostal church, I didn’t have any kind of like social life. ’cause I go to church on Sunday. I, I go to church as early as 5:30 AM I join in cleaning the church, I do bible study, I take a Bible study class, then I do worship. And after church I still end up cleaning the church. Then I leave around one. 6 (7m 48s): So my entire Sunday I spend it from like 5:30 AM to one in the church. And when I come back home, I go back for like a bible group by 6:00 PM in the evening to 8:00 PM So all my community around me then were members of the church. So I felt very close relationship with members of the church and it was difficult to like deviate because if you deviates you’ll lose all the people you have because everything you have is tied to the church while is going good. It was great. I, I have friends, if I don’t have food in my home, they’ll prepare food and they would invite me to come and eat, like play games with people. 6 (8m 33s): It was like one of the greatest experience of my life until, you know, I came out as gay and that was when it was difficult for me to be a member of the church as a gay person. 7 (8m 47s): Yeah, I think your story, like that experience is one that so many LGBT LGBTQ people can relate to both, like looking for, you know, as a as as a, as a like safety, but also then it becomes a place of unsafety at the same time. So what was it that caused you to sort of risk it all by coming out as gay? 6 (9m 10s): You know, I didn’t know that I would have the courage to come out as gay. My grandmother, when I was 11 years old, she used to take me to church and show all her friends. My grandmother was around 80 something years. She would show all her friends on Sunday, like older people to women. They would be like, oh, to meet my grandson, A that is going to become a pastor when he gets older. And you know, I’ll wear a, a tie and a pants and a tie and I’ll my, in my pocket I yes grandma, you know, like I have the favorite because I aspiring to be this person that is loved by my grandmother. 6 (9m 56s): When I was growing older, my grandmother and I had this strong bond with like religion. We pray together. If she eats food, she’ll keep the, the a portion of the food for me. And if anybody comes to you like, no, you don’t pray with me, it definitely would take the food like that. So even losing that, the fear of losing that relationship with my grandmother was the most frighten thing for me as a person. Not even the backlash from the greater society. But when I was in college, about 19 years old, I tried to meet somebody on a gay app. There was no app, a website called Man, I, I think Manja. 6 (10m 42s): So the guy was d he d that doesn’t show his face. So I, I didn’t know what was like deal. It was like, I don’t show my face, but if you want to meet, we can meet in a market square and we go to my place together. You know, I, I didn’t, I haven’t met gay people a lot then and everybody was like hiding. So I, if I wanted to like meet somebody, I would’ve to take direct. So we, I was in a market, so market in Nigeria is different. People are selling food, people are doing stuff, everything is happening. 6 (11m 22s): So I was standing there and somebody honk, it’s like a Toyota blue car and wind down the passenger screen. I was like coming. So I entered, I knew about the guy. So we’re driving is a little bit older than me. I was like 19, it was like 33 and we drove into like a dead road. We just continued driving and we parked the car and he told me that, I told everybody that is in friend, you’re younger brother to my friend and you’re gonna school and I’m gonna give you stuff to take to school. That is the story you have to tell everybody. 6 (12m 3s): I was like, no problem. We drove about five minutes and entered into a compound. So it was like a church. I was like, wow, you live in a church? It was like, yeah, I’m leaving with a, a friend upstairs of the church, like the, the vestry. So when we got into the vestry, I discovered that his picture was on the wall, the rest, a priest in the church, but I didn’t want to tell me because he felt like it will lead to him being outed. So I, I said, oh, you’re a priest. I was like, yeah, I’m practicing to become a priest. 6 (12m 43s): You know, he wanted to touch me. I was like, don’t touch me like you’re lying to me and stuff like that. I slept in his place The next morning I woke up very early and went to the church. He was doing a communion mass in the morning, you know, I went back, took my stuff, he already dropped transportation money for me in the decks. It, instead of me to go to school, I went straight to my grandmother because I saw the kind of person I was gonna become, this kind of person that hide to sexuality. And the first person I would’ve to comment to was my grandmother. So I told her that I think I’m gay, I don’t have the language, but I think I sleep, I prefer to sleep with men than women. 6 (13m 24s): And my grandmother was like, it’s okay. She was very old then. I dunno if she understand what I’m saying. She was like, it’s okay, I’ll screw. I like, it’s fine. So after telling my grandmother, I came back to school and I told some of my friends in school that, you know, I, I was having, I had a girlfriend then I told them that I’m pretending like I like this girl, I don’t like her, I’m going to break up this relationship. And they’re like, oh, this girl, two of you’re in love. I was like, we’re not in love. Everything I’ve been doing is pretty, but I didn’t come to them that I’m gay. Yeah, I just, my relationship. So it was that moment that I made a decision that I’m not going to hide who I’m, but I’m not going to be open about who I’m, but after I came out to my grandmother and to myself, I tried to meet another person on a gay dating app and it was a mob. 6 (14m 17s): They pretended like they were gay, but like they, they mob four people, like they striped me naked, beat me up, took my money, went to the bank, took money from my atm. After that incident, I couldn’t argue who I’m anymore. A lot of people in the community, they already know that I was that guy that was beating, trying to sleep it another guy. So I just have to come out and say I’m gay. 5 (14m 44s): And, and how has life been different for you since coming out 6 (14m 49s): The church? First of I, I I, I used to be a pastor, they told me that no, I can’t be a pastor anymore. It sub too, it was like you can’t come to the church, we have to reconcile and all those things. And you know, I left the church and I hated my sexuality for about three years because you know, just so shame food that I went through that experience. But later on I moved to Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory in Nigeria and I found the underground gay community. So it’s like very interesting community. So people who fled different cities, they’ll come to Abuja. 6 (15m 31s): Abuja is like DC Washington DC is a federal capital erritory. And in the evenings you, your friends would be like, oh we’re gonna a party. When you get to the party and you go like, there’s like regular party up on top, but underneath is like gay guys who brought their clothes, their wigs and everything and they change underneath. So it’s called the underground gay scene in Nigeria. It was then I found like a community, a group of people who are like openly gay with each other and life was really great because you know, I was like, I found a community. 6 (16m 12s): But in 2013 the government of Nigeria passed a law called Marriage prohibition act, which criminalizes gay relationship by 14 years imprisonment activist, 10 years imprisonment, cohabitation of suspected gay men imprisonment, public imprisonment. So that safe evil in Abuja became like a, you know, in 2014 January we tried to do a that during like that. But somebody reported to the police and the police came and arrested everybody that were there. So there was just constant crackdown of any spaces where you could be gay in Nigeria. 6 (16m 57s): But you know, in spite of that crackdown, there was a gay religious community in Abuja. So people come to this church in Abuja nearby straight people come to gay people come to, but the gay people coming to the church knows that majority of the guides there again. So that church was like a safe even for gay people especially where we started doing HIV and AIDS testing and providing access to medication for people. Because because of that law, most people are HIV as suspected to, so they couldn’t go to clinics. 6 (17m 38s): But it’s that su that church community is where we can masque and we’re providing I testing C and that’s where people who test positive can get treatment access to condom and other forms of protection. Yeah. But my life quickly changed from the church boy to the anti anti kind of spaces like that because I had to, I had to be outspoken about things like this for other members of the community to pick point and say if is gonna that church, that means maybe that place might be safe for me to go. 6 (18m 22s): But it wasn’t really a church, it was just a safe Yeah, 7 (18m 27s): I know that now, right, that you are an act like a gay activist. And so I’m wondering can you, you’re, it sounds like you’re starting to touch upon that, but I would love for you to just share a little bit more about your activism and and your work. 6 (18m 42s): Yeah, so as circumstances we have it, I continue doing activism in Nigeria for access to healthcare treatment for LGBTQ community members. And in 2016 I won an award by an organization called they advocate for micro vaccine for HIV positive people, people and my name and photo publish as a grassroots activist in Nigeria here in the US. So that to further in my own country, like a mob broke down my apartment and stuff happened. So I couldn’t live in my country anymore. 6 (19m 24s): I had to flee. So I came to the US to seek asylum in 2016 and I was detained for about six months. After I was granted asylum, I became homeless. And it’s a situation many people face when they come to the us they experience a form of homelessness after they’re being released from the detention center. I started working first for an organization in New Jersey doing HIV testing and peer education. But I discovered that that wasn’t a big problem in the US as it was in Nigeria. So I created the first organization in New York City, a shelter for LGBTQ displaced people in 2018. 6 (20m 11s): And my work surrounded providing access to housing for LGBTQ people are displaced in America and you don’t, when you do something that affects the population that you’re part of, people speak about you. So like other LGBTQ people speak about me in the community, that it created a space whereby I couldn’t come and this was where I was able to build my life. And I think media came in to do a media interview with me as a result of somebody we helped to became an MT in 20. And since then I’ve been using my platform to speak up about the issues LGBTQ displaced people face in America and the broader sense of what equality would mean for LGBTQ displaced people who find themselves in America. 6 (21m 3s): And that is the work I’ve been doing for roughly four years now, is creating awareness on the issue of detention for LGBTQ identified people. Because we face an historic marginalization in our own country, we persecution to come to the US detention is a form of torture. And while I was at the detention center, one trans person from Honduras, female male to female, but because they couldn’t change their birth certificate in Honduras, they put them in a male detention center with me. And when they were released from the detention center, they came to stay in the shelter I created. So I, that was the first person we were advocating for why trans people should not be locked up in detention center. 6 (21m 51s): And that advocacy has proven successful. DE detention center was locked up in New Jersey, housed about 400 people, but now’s housing less than 25 people. And the state of New Jersey have signed an agreement to close private prisons for detaining immigrant by 2026. So that these are some of the kind of advocacy I do is advocating to end detention of LGBTQ people coming to America to seek protection, creating favorable policies that will give people who are released from detention center access to housing. Recently I founded a new organization separate from the shelter I founded. 6 (22m 31s): The shelter is still running, they have about nine staff. But I left the shelter because direct service was very difficult for me because I have that direct experience of being a displaced person. I created Refugee America, we do 3 1 1 service for LGBTQ displaced people. So if you arrive in Tijuana and you are detained and you’re released from the detention center, if you go to Refugee America website and write us that you’re currently at the border in Arizona or Texas, we can pay transportation for you to move to a city like Chicago, Denver, and New York and find LGBTQ supportive services to support you if you’re also in transition to find healthcare providers that can help. 6 (23m 17s): And recently we started creating a guide for welcoming LGBTQ displaced people because you know, if you come to a new country and you have been marginalized, you might find it difficult to talk to a service provider. So if a service provider seek now on their websites that they’re inclusive of LGBTQ people with a flag or their pronouns are, you might begin to feel like you can open up and receive services, this sort of organization. So that’s the work I’m currently doing. 5 (23m 49s): It’s amazing. Yeah, I’m I’m wondering if you have, I I’m sure that for some of our listeners who are in the US who are maybe even unaware that people are being detained, if, if someone wanted to find out if that’s happening in their state and how to organize against that, do you have any resources for where they should start that work? 6 (24m 17s): Yeah, the, the detention center in almost all 50 states in America. So if you go to ww, freedom for immigrant org, freedom for Immigrant have a visual display of all the cities and states in America via detection centers are currently being located. And we are trying to end the mandatory detention across America because, you know, private prisons facilitate the detention of immigrants and the federal government have signed a bill to end the use of private prison for federal crimes, but they have not the use of private prisons for immigrants. 6 (25m 4s): And one of the biggest group is called GO, they were formerly called Correction Corps of America. And you know, the funny thing is that the US is the highest detaining, they have the highest amount of detention of immigrants in the world and it costs about 201 each day to detain an immigrant. For the six months I was in detention center, that was about 40 something thousand. US there are alternatives to detention like per bracelet people could wear and bail. And that is the service Canada is currently using community services whereby community will sponsor an immigrant and if community sponsor an immigrant, five gay people say we’re gonna sponsor or our church is gonna sponsor an immigrant. 6 (25m 57s): So we’re trying to get the US government to use alternatives to detention for immigrant. There’s an historic, there’s an historic trail that follows detention of immigrants is mostly black and brown people that have been detained in America. The first time detention was used in America, A Supreme Court judge said that this is unAmerican to detain people in America. But 1980 during Reagan administration, the Cuban and Asian migrants who were coming to America, they wanted to repel them from coming into, so they started the use of detention. Again, it’s not the Trump administration or the administration, almost Clinton, Obama, George Bush, they all use detention for immigrants. 6 (26m 49s): And this is the 21st century with looking at bail reform for Americans. We should also be looking at what other forms of reform can be applicable to immigrants coming to seek protection in America, especially the people. I’ll tell you something that happened to a friend of mine when I came to the US in 2016, after I was detained, a friend of mine who was working in the same organization with me came in 2017, you know, it, it was locked up in the detention center in de in at planter. And he was HIV positive, you know, it took them two months to get him on his medication. 6 (27m 30s): He almost died because his viral load increased and he brought his medication from Nigeria. They said he cannot take the medication that he has, do the tests in the detention center. And he told me that one day he had issue with his, they had to do cleaning, so they had to take him from the detention center to a nearby hospital. You won’t from the detention center to he got to the clinic, they chain into his to share why the dentist was trying to clean his teeth. It’s like so terrible. Like how they treat people who come to America to see protection. 6 (28m 11s): I think that there’s a complicated relationship with like immigrants and like the rights of immigrant in America because Americans are like, why should we focus on the rights of immigrants when we too have our issue? There’s a trans legislation all across America, don’t say gay in Florida, but I think that if we really want to achieve equality in America, it has to be for everybody and not just one set. Because if Americans are treated differently from immigrant, that means we’re permiting LGBTQ people to be, to to be on the end of persecution. 6 (28m 54s): Why we Americans are like, we’re safe not to be persecuted. 5 (28m 58s): Yeah. Wrong. And historically all of these different oppressions and marginalizations are all connected and so we have to work for all of them at the same time, not just one or the other. 6 (29m 11s): I, I think that it’s like surreal that Americans don’t think about outside America. If you are married as a gay person, you have gay rights in America, you and your husband cannot be transferred for work stuff to Nigeria because your marriage will not be accepted there. We can’t go Saudi Arabia, not that we’re gays and what is equality for us when we’re still restricted to be able to do things around the world. So if we’re gonna change what it means to be a free gay person in America, we have to also influence other parts of the world. 6 (29m 60s): And this is one thing I want to say about being a religious person in America and also thinking about where your money goes to around the world. Homophobia in Africa is flawed by the west. There’s a dark money channel that moves from evangelical churches in America to Africa. The first anti-gay bill that was passed in Africa was in 2012 in Uganda. The bill was written by a white evangelical from America handed to a senate official in Uganda and sponsored the bill. And the bill was passed after Uganda passed their bill in 2012. 6 (30m 43s): Nigeria passed their bill in 2013 and that has for anti LGBTQ eight across Africa, there are still evangelical churches that preach that being gay is bad and you know, the, the strong sense of homophobia in Africa is fought by Pentecost star evangelical Christians who come to preach that the west is already destroyed, don’t allow Africa to be destroyed. 7 (31m 13s): Yeah. So if, if someone is listening and they’re like enraged by what they’re hearing, they’re also inspired by what they’re hearing. What is like the next action that you would tell someone to take to get involved and make a difference? 6 (31m 31s): I think that we tend to think about it too big to show it’s like this is a systemic problem. There’s nothing I can do. When I came to America, I was expecting to be accepted by the gay community in America because from afar on Facebook, YouTube, I see gay people celebrating pride. I, I wanted to leave that true utopia of being a gay person. But when I came here in the gay community, I’m a refugee and in the refugee community I’m black in the black community, I’m African and Africans, I’m gay. 6 (32m 13s): There is no integration or intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants. There is this like large division of like we have HRC, we have glad we have Gleason, but they’re only focused on like gay American rights. I think that there need to be more intersectionality between gay Americans and gay immigrants who are coming here because when we come to this country, our one big dream is to be a part of that equality agenda. So I think that they need to be more inclusivity between gay Americans and gay immigrant. 6 (32m 57s): That is one that reduced the division. Secondly, when I came to America after I was released from the detention center, a church group in New Jersey, they contributed two 40 for me to get a shelter at YMCA in new for two weeks. You know, they gave, there are gay people who are trying to support people here, but I think many gay people do not know that they’re gay immigrants locked up in detention center. And I was visited by this church group from Riverside, a straight lady about 80 something years old and a straight guy about seven something years old. 6 (33m 37s): They were visiting me, they were writing me letters like pen. There’s so many gay people who have been historically marginalized who are in detection center that we gay Americans can write them letters to say that you are part of us, you’re welcome here and when you get outta this detention center you’ll be welcomed in America. You know, the first time I visited gay, it was like a shock for me. I’ve never visited gay. I was like, oh my God, you could do this. Like there so many immigrants who would love to be to their first day by America or you know, there’s so many people having isolation when they come to America that if you’re organizing something you can say, oh I’ll invite this set of immigrants to join me. 6 (34m 26s): And that is what I try to do in New York City with my shelter. There’s so many gay people in New York from Wall Street to the financial sector, mostly the financial sector that because I was vocal, they’re like, oh, you’re my friend, I’ll invite you to my place. And when I get to their place, I’m like, you have a big space. Do you want to host an event? I lemme bring seven other immigrants to your place. And they’re like, do you think it’s safe? I’m like, okay, why do you think it’s safe for me and not the, so I think that we need to create a sense of belonging, safety and coming for people who are coming here and it be as lead to as helping a give person do their resume when they come to the us. 6 (35m 15s): We recently launched the with 10th partnership for refugee, the TQ mentorship program for LBQ immigrants. So more 36 company sign up to reach from TD Bank to Deloitte and essential JP Morgan Chase, whereby they bring a few of their staff to mentor LGBTQ immigrant. There is no commitment to give them a job, but it’s just like, I’m meet you four times a year, talk about you. And recently we had a partnership with Facebook provided a training for LGBTQ people who wanna be digital ma marketers for them to be able immigrants who wanna be digital marketers. 6 (36m 2s): And after the 12th training, some of them got employed by Facebook and other organizations. So I think it’s just more integration into the American society to create opportunity for not just immigrant, but for the LGBTQ community in America. We yeah, the immigrant community. Yeah, 7 (36m 22s): A lot of our well centers are in the US but we also have folks listening from all around the world, including like some in Nigeria and Honduras and places like that. And so I’m wondering like what message do you have for folks outside of the US or Canada that might be in places that are less friendly to LBT rights than, I mean, the US is like, we have our own, we have our own problem. And so even saying that like us is also not always the most friendly, but to folks who might be listening from Nigeria or Uras or other, some of those places that you mentioned. 6 (36m 59s): You know, when I was writing my book, that was the first thing I thought about is that when I was this 17 years old teenager struggling with my sexuality, the church was not a friendly place. I wish I had known somebody who was like me to just say to me that you are normal, you’re okay, you are not possessed. And literature kind of influenced culture too. Like podcasts influenced culture a lot and somebody is hearing my voice from somewhere and they’re relating to say that that person is telling my story, but it’s also giving me a sense of hope that I too can one day live in that reality of being a free gay person. 6 (37m 47s): And I think that that is the only thing I can offer them at this point is that you’re seen and who you’re is completely normal. It’s not your faults, it’s just that society is built in a way that is meant to make us feel like we’re not normal. 7 (38m 5s): Yeah. You mentioned your book. Can you share more about your book? What’s in it, where to get it? 6 (38m 13s): Yeah, so I wrote a book called Asylum by Simon and Schuster. It’s gonna be out June 7th. You can get it in any bookstore across America. I I like to support independent bookstore, but some people outside America, there’s is gonna be available in English countries like Canada, uk, Australia, and even Nigeria and Kenya, Simon Schuster have different websites in different countries where you can get to the book. When I was writing the book, I was writing it for people like myself at the beginning. 6 (38m 54s): I just wanted to have an influence towards someone growing up in a country whereby they’re gay, they’re Christian, they’re black, and they’re like, that is me. This is my struggle, this is my experience. But as I was continuing writing, I was thinking about it that now I live in America and many Americans are naive towards the fact that people living here when they get here, it’s not all rain, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. There is still a lot of struggle. So I wanted to leave on the pages, the experiences of someone who came here who was largely naive towards IIII, I was biased towards a lot of things and I was naive about a lot of things. 6 (39m 40s): I didn’t know that Jewish people existed. I I, I read the, the Jewish people existed when I came to New York and so that were Jewish people in Brooklyn. If I call my mom and tell another, oh, I saw a Jewish person, she’d be like, oh, you lying. So it’s that kind of like naiveness I grew up in. It was very religious, just anything outside of Christian religion was bad. Were gonna go, you’re gonna destroyed. So I think my memoir is also an opportunity for me to see how much I have grown as a person and how much we all grow as a person each day. And to give hope to people that despite the fact that things are difficult right now, I don’t imagine if I can be a gay person in like 90, 55 or if I could be out to be myself in like 90, 80 whereby I’ll be sacked for my job, for being gay. 6 (40m 39s): And it was those people who inspired us right now to be activists, to be who we’re, to be free and to be inspired to do something that will impact another generation. And it’s not left alone to us to leave for ourself. It’s left alone for us to leave for ourself, also for another generation to come in and reap the benefit of what we’re fought for. Like the way we’re reaping the benefit of what other people fought for. They lost their job, they lost their livelihood, they died in war. So that we can say that we’re gay, we’re bisexual and transgender and love is love and rainbow and everything. 7 (41m 19s): Thank you for all of that. We’ll put links to your book and your website, your social media in the show notes of this episode of the podcast, that folks can contact you easily and find the, the find 5 (41m 33s): The book if they wanna. Before we go, is there anything else that you wanna share? 6 (41m 40s): Nothing really Recently, you know, the Ukrainian crisis brought a lot of limelight into the plight of refugees globally. And a lot of people of fates have been saying like, oh, this crisis is bad. It’s like we have to do everything we can to support the Ukrainian people, you know, but I’m very shocked, I’m very shocked that it happened in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in mamma, and people were not that because the US population and their empathy for immigrants is geared towards quote unquote a white institution. 6 (42m 25s): So I think that those thing I would leave everybody with is including myself, is that we have to constantly check our biases when issues are happening around the world and say that what do I, what am I missing or what is not represented in the table? And how can we be more inclusive in terms of like creating a better world for everybody and not just a certain group of people. 5 (42m 52s): One question that we like to end with all of our guests is to ask what is something that’s bringing you joy lately? 6 (43m 1s): If you look behind me, I just got my diploma and today I got my commencement gown. I just completed my master’s from NYU School of Business and May 18th I’ll be doing my commencement. So it’s, I can be able to go to school and be myself in this country every day. It’s like a blessing. 5 (43m 26s): I see you rocking your sweatshirt. Congratulations. I recognize them. 6 (43m 35s): Yeah, the violence. Yeah. I say I’m just like NYU Journal. I love it. I have in my office table, you know, it’s cost me a lot of money to do the program, A lot of money. I could be their house with it. So, you know, that’s what alumni does to you, is that they sell you the promise. But I think that I, I, I’m just grateful that I’m able to live in a country whereby I can achieve my dream every day. 5 (44m 3s): Thank you so much for, for being here and for sharing your story. It’s just so lovely to, to hear and to get more involved in, in the things that you’re talking about. So thank you for being here. 6 (44m 16s): Thank you very much. Awesome, 5 (44m 17s): Thanks. 8 (44m 19s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 5 (44m 28s): To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. 9 (44m 31s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. Rubrik (44m 40s): AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com. That’s R-U-B-R-I k.com. Libsyn Ads (45m 10s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a preproduced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com today. The post Angelic Troublemakers: Edafe Okporo appeared first on Queer Theology.

For this interview, we are excited to talk with Millie, more well known as Milli Not So Vanilli on social media. She is a 34-year-old Jewish mother and “accidental” TikTok creator. We learn how her grandmother has inspired her to speak out and how she is her greatest source of inspiration; her grandmother had been a Holocaust survivor and her grandfather was a victim of McCarthyism. We discuss how important it is for Christians to learn about their own history, to learn about Jewish history, and why this will help end prevalent misconceptions about Judaism and Jews. She also explains how anti-Semitism is accepted and widespread throughout Christian belief teachings and what Christians can do to unlearn and reframe these damaging beliefs in order to be a good ally for Jews. Millie reminds us how important and relevant this work is today and what you can do now to be a Christian without spreading anti-Semitic rhetoric. Millie celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism. Learn more about Millie at: IG: https://www.instagram.com/milli_not_so_vanilli/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@milli_not_so_vanilli https://linktr.ee/milli_not_so_vanilli Links from the episode: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/ https://www.rabbisandralawson.com/   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. 1 (10s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. 2 (13s): And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from 1 (17s): Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how 2 (23s): Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. 1 (33s): Sanctuary Collective is an online community of LGBQ, Christians and straight cisgender supporters from all over the world. 2 (39s): We encourage one another, laugh together, form friendships and learn too. 1 (43s): When you join the community, you get access to workshops, courses, and quarterly worship experiences, 2 (48s): But more than that, you get access to a network of people who get it and who will journey with you. To find out more, go to queer theology.com/community. 1 (57s): I am so excited about our guest today, Millie, who on TikTok is Millie? Not so. Vanilli is, I think the TikTok who trained the TikTok algorithm into sending me in deep, deep, deep into the world of Jewish TikTok. And I am so thankful for her. I have learned so much from her. Many, many videos about Judaism and antisemitism on her TikTok and on her Instagram, and we had a really beautiful conversation with her. Millie is a 34-year-old Jewish mother and accidental TikTok creator. Her grandparents are her greatest source of inspiration. Her grandmother, having been a Holocaust survivor and her grandfather, a victim of McCarthyism. 1 (1m 41s): Millie, celebrates Jewish diversity and advocates for a more inclusive and accepting Jewish community. She believes in Jewish empowerment through knowledge and awareness of Jewish history and believes a better understanding of Jewish history and who Jews are as a people is the best way to fight antisemitism. Pako up. You are in for a real Treats today. Hello, Millie, and thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I’m really excited to dive into your backgrounds and your experiences as a creator on TikTok. 3 (2m 14s): Yeah, thank you for having me. 1 (2m 16s): You’re welcome. So just to get started, for obviously the folks at home who don’t maybe know much about you, can you share just a little bit about your sort of faith and cultural experiences sort of growing up and how that is or is not, or shaped sort of your life and who you are today? 3 (2m 41s): Well, growing up I attended, you know, secular schools always. And so there was always just a handful of Jews in the schools that I went to. And it definitely experiencing, I think a lot of Jews who grow up gonna Hebrew school, they have such a different experience because the going to school with Christian kids and kids that aren’t Jewish, you immediately start experiencing anti-Semitism and you immediately start hearing anti-Semitic rhetoric. 3 (3m 34s): So I think I grew up very aware that I was different and I always felt different when, you know, we did go to Hebrew school, which was just on the weekend, and you know, we did go to our, our temple, our reform temple, and we did go to Jewish summer camp. Me and my sister, and I definitely was very aware of how, how different I felt in different spaces as a Jew. And I was always aware of my family history and the, you know, my grandmother, my Oma being a Holocaust survivor. 3 (4m 25s): I don’t remember the first time I start started hearing about this. I don’t remember the first time I started hearing about what my grandfather, my OPA went through being discriminated against, you know, for being Jewish. It just was always something that was in my awareness and these things definitely shaped who I am today. And growing up, growing up, growing up, being aware that everyone hates you or in the very least doesn’t understand you, I think is really, it’s, it’s a unique experience and it gives you a different sense of, of pride in who you are and where you come from. 1 (5m 17s): You know, it’s, it’s funny you talk about just like growing up, going to secular school and it’s, I’m just like struck at how like people who create online, like we only see or we only reveal like parts of ourselves, right? And so like as a sort of a Jewish creator on TikTok, all, most all a lot of your content is about sort of Judaism and your experiences of, of your faith and your culture and of course antisemitism and discrimination, but I would’ve, you know, never known that you grew up going to a secular school. And so how did you come into being a, I don’t know, TikTok making content on, on, on TikTok 3 (6m 3s): Completely by accident? I had no idea what TikTok even was. When I got on TikTok, I had seen other people posting their TikTok videos onto Instagram, which I was super late to Instagram. Like I’m not a technology person. I was, I was late to Facebook. So the fact that I got on TikTok when it was even, I mean, I, I saw someone posting like transformation videos and so I thought it was an app where you could make cool little videos and like edit them. 3 (6m 46s): And I was like, I wanna try that. And I got on TikTok and you know, at first all I was seeing was your typical teenager and a lot of mom content, which I actually can’t stand. And I just was messing around and I had seen that there, I had seen that there were people who made posts just talking and I was like, I love to talk, I can do this, I can talk. I had just gotten, yeah, so I had just gotten onto TikTok shortly before my Oma was kind of on her way out of this world and nobody was following me. 3 (7m 38s): Like nobody, it was like a few random people seeing my stuff and I was just talking about random stuff. I was like making random posts. I was like, I, I like Poshmark better, I have more followers there. And then my Oma passed away and I was so moved by some of the things that she was saying in her last days of life and knowing what she had gone through, the fact that she was talking about her life only in good terms, only how, how beautiful it was. 3 (8m 23s): And I just wanted to make a post and I was, whoever’s gonna see this is gonna see this and if it helps anybody know that no matter what they’re going through, they can come out the other side and have a great life then that, I’m just gonna say this. And so I, I got, I don’t know what I thought, I thought it was like so many people and it was maybe a thousand people saw this post and I decided TikTok was the way, I had always known that some way, somehow when my Oma passed away, I, I just wanted to share her story and that I felt I had this responsibility to share her story and carry on her legacy in the last few years of her life. 3 (9m 13s): I, you know, she was in her nineties, I became very aware that she was not gonna be around forever and to make sure that her story was still out there, that it was not forgotten it, you know, it just felt like a responsibility because the idea that people are gonna forget was terrifying to me. The idea that these people are not gonna be around forever to share their own stories was terrifying. And so I just started sharing her story and I started getting followers and it was really cathartic and healing and I, I started getting followers and at some point I was like, I have more to say than just talk about my Oma and my own family history. 3 (10m 12s): I’ve always had a lot to say, you know, before TikTok I was all caps typing on Facebook, yelling at the people I went to high school with about everything under the sun, including antisemitism. So, you know, I I was like, I’m just gonna start saying what I have to say here on TikTok. And I had gained somewhat of a following maybe 20,000 followers at this point, and people started having questions and people started looking at me as a Jewish voice and I just kept talking. 3 (10m 52s): And it was interesting because initially I really thought I had followers be because of Oma. And the more I continued just speaking my truth and my truth as inspired by Oma who always spoke her truth, I kept getting more followers. And so, you know, at this point I I I’m just, I know what I’m doing, but I’m here and people are listening. 1 (11m 26s): Yeah. You know, I I think that Shay and I sometimes feel this tension of like telling the stories that like, we wanna tell ’cause are meaningful to us versus like having conversations like with and to other queer people versus like being aware that straight people are listening in and then like, why do we have to like, like doing the work of educating straight people and I’m, you know, I I know that you’re audience, you have like a mixed audience of, of Jewish folks and non-Jewish folks. And so like how, how has it been for you sort of balancing like having conversations you wanna have about things that are important to you versus like educating it’s, you know, antisemitic people or, or, or educating people who want to do better but just like aren’t Jewish, you know? 3 (12m 19s): Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s definitely a balance because I do have a lot of Jewish followers and I get a lot of feedback from them. Thank you for saying the things that I couldn’t put into words. And I, I feel like part of being empowered as a Jew is knowing Jewish history and there’s a lot of Jews that they don’t know a lot of this stuff that I’m talking about. And I feel it’s important to empower them in, in, in speaking, you know, their own truth as Jews. And I feel like it’s important to empower them with the knowledge of our history as Jews. 3 (13m 6s): And I feel like if I can say things that they don’t know how to put into words or you know, they don’t feel comfortable saying and they can share my videos or pass them along and that’s helpful to them, that’s great. But I do also have a huge following of people that wanna be better allies and I have a huge following of deconstructing Christians. And so it’s definitely a balance of creating content for myself because I still need to sometimes find enjoyment in this even though it’s, it’s definitely labor, creating content for other Jews and actually educating the people that need to be educated because there’s so many people that I hear from that are like, wow, I never thought as a deconstructing Christian, I never thought about this this way or so many people, I didn’t realize that anti antisemitism was so prevalent. 3 (14m 15s): And so it’s, it’s finding a balance and it’s also the balance in doing all of those things and self care. But for the most part I just say what I think is important, I just say what I’m thinking about, what’s been weighing heavy on me or what I’ve been feeling excited about and I just go for it and it’s gonna resonate with somebody. But it’s definitely interesting, you know, the feedback that I get from various groups of people and I, you know, my target audience is not just Jews or not just, you know, gu not just non-Jew. 3 (15m 9s): It’s kind of trying to make it for everybody that either wants to learn or wants to feel validated. 1 (15m 19s): Yeah, it’s a really beautiful space that you cultivated and like, I mean obviously there’s bullshit in the comments, but also there’s like some really, there’s some really wonderful stuff that goes on in the comments as well. 3 (15m 30s): Yeah. 1 (15m 31s): I’m wondering, so you know, our audience is primarily Christian, some folks who are, you know, solidly Christian, some folks are in that, you know, deconstructing Christianity phase of their knees, others who are considering other religions. And I’m wondering, you know, wonder know for folks who are not Jewish who want to like sort of like do a better job of learning about Judaism or sort of ridding their Christianity from antisemitism or just sort of like being better allies. Do you have any sort of advice on, on what folks could do to, for like work in solidarity with, with Jewish folks better? 3 (16m 12s): I mean the main thing, the main thing is listen, listen to Jews. And I think, so what I’ve really been thinking about, because someone recently asked me, is there a way to be Christian and not be anti-Semitic? And I think there is, but I think it takes a lot of work and it a lot of self-awareness. And I think my intention, you know, I, I talk a lot about the harm Christianity has done to Jews throughout history and it’s never my intention to make people hate Christianity or wanna leave Christianity. 3 (17m 7s): It’s more useful to have allies within the Christian community than it’s to have allies outside of the Christian community. I don’t want there to be no Christianity. I want Christianity and Christian to do better. And that starts with learning your own history, learning the history of Christianity and how it relates to Judaism and listening to Jews about how we interpret the Torah, what we believe and what what we practice versus what they’ve been told within the church, what they’ve been told by other Christians about Judaism. 3 (17m 57s): Because that’s the biggest problem is so many Christians have been taught so much about Judaism and it’s wrong, it’s all wrong. And they’ve been, they’ve been not taught about their own history as Christians. 2 (18m 15s): Yeah, I was, I was really struck by what you said earlier about, you know, both how much you were aware of and entrenched in your own history, but also about how important that is for you to, to have those conversations with folks you who dunno their own history. And I was just really thinking and so struck by how many folks I know don’t know anything about Christian history, the history of how we got certain theologies, right? The, the history of Judaism, like all of that and how detrimental that is to not only our understanding of our own faith, but like of being of the ability to be in solidarity with other people because we don’t even know what our own story has been. 2 (19m 3s): And so I I find so much resonance in, in what you’ve said there about, about knowing your history and how important that is. 3 (19m 11s): Well, yeah, and that’s, you know, one of the huge fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity from early on we start, I mean it’s not, and people don’t understand, like Judaism is, is not just a religion and we’re not just gonna Hebrew school to learn about what we’re supposed to believe in terms of God and all of these things. We’re going to Hebrew school to learn about our culture and a lot of that is our history. And we do learn about antisemitism, we start getting taught about this very young, and the history is such a, a integral part of our education as Jews. 3 (20m 0s): And that goes hand in hand with the antisemitism that we start to experience very early on as Jews. I started getting told by my Christian peers in maybe second, third grade that I was going to help because I was Jewish. And, and so I started becoming aware of their learn. They’re learning this about, they’re learning this about Jewish Jews and Judaism and I’m learning something totally different. And, and while Jews are getting taught about their history and their culture, Christians are getting taught about a belief system. 3 (20m 47s): And it’s a belief system that has come from what they believe is Judaism, but the, but the beliefs are so different and so, and they’re not, they’re not taught about their own history where history is such an important part of our Jewish education. History is not a part of the Christian education from my perspective and from what I’ve experienced with Christians, they are taught what’s in their Bible and they are taught what they should believe in in terms of how a higher power and, and apart from that, there’s, there’s, that’s just it. 3 (21m 34s): And they’re taught that, you know, Jews are, we’ve rejected the Messiah and we’re wrong. And they don’t, they don’t get taught about how Christianity has tried to reconcile those differences. They don’t get taught about the actual physical actions that have taken place because the beliefs are, are different. And, and, and those, you know, differences and in that history, a lot of pain has been caused and trauma and you know, then they wanna come, you know, to us and, and save us. 3 (22m 22s): And it’s so, and they have no idea and they have no idea why we react, react the way that we do. 1 (22m 31s): Yeah. Oh man, what I learned from my, like evangelical church growing up about like what Judaism is both like first century Judaism and modern Judaism is just like, I mean, so completely wrong compared to what I, you know, like hearing from my friends who are Jewish directly or in school, like from my professors who are, who are Jewish and it’s just like, oh, they was just like, it’s just like, there’s just like so many inaccuracies. It’s like a whole other just like, I don’t know, like make believe people that then, you know, Christianity uses to just sort of demonize. And so I’m wondering for you, like what are some of the most meaningful parts of your, your Judaism, whether that’s like a part of the, the faith component or the cultural component or how those, you know, are intertwined? 3 (23m 25s): I mean, for me, what’s always re resonated with me is we place more emphasis on our actions than our beliefs. You know, it’s about doing the mitzvahs and it’s about what we do not versus what what we believe. And so that leaves so much room for us to question and contemplate and be individuals and, and we continue to participate in Judaism because we are Jews. 3 (24m 11s): Like it’s who we’re, and it’s, and it’s, it’s what, so Rabbi Sandra, who is the rabbi that I stand girl over, what, what she has said repeatedly is that we were a people, 1 (24m 30s): Oh my god, me too. She left a comment on one of my tiktoks the other day and I died, 3 (24m 34s): Okay. When Rabbi Sandra and I became mutuals, I was like, this is all the validation I’ve ever needed in my entire life. But what she’s repeatedly said, 1 (24m 46s): What 3 (24m 46s): She’s repeatedly said, which it resonates with me so much and it’s just so true, is that we were a people and then Christianity came along and turned us into a religion. And that is so true. And so for me, it’s not like I’m doing this because this is what I believe I’m doing this because this is who I’m as a person and, and it’s, it it nurtures my soul. And, and so it’s like it Judaism reminds me to live in, in the moment because in terms of death, we don’t have the answers. Like Judaism is notoriously vague when it comes to the afterlife. 3 (25m 27s): And it’s not that we don’t believe in it, but it’s very vague and we are told kind of like, eh, don’t worry about it. And as someone who is constantly in existential crisis mode and has an immense fear of death, It reminds me, Sam, yeah, it reminds me to just be here now to like live in the moment. It’s like, let’s focus on the actions, let’s focus on connecting to my ancestors and let’s focus on what I’m doing right now. Let’s be here now. And I love that about Judaism and then just the, the, so the social justice like aspect where, where literally taught Tik, it’s our job to heal the world. 3 (26m 23s): And and that’s what, you know, so many people don’t understand. There’s this misconceptions about what the chosen people means. It’s like, no, we’re not chosen to be God’s favorite. We’re not chosen to get into doesn’t. And and I, and I take it very seriously and you know, the laws that were given to us, they’re impossible. They’re impossible for any one person to, to adhere to all of, and that’s not even the point. 3 (27m 4s): But, you know, I think a lot of Christians look at a lot of this stuff as a burden because they’re seeing it through a Christian lens. But really it’s a gift because again, back to what Rabbi Sandra says, we are a people and, and we are a nation and we needed, you know, to, as a nation of people, we needed to figure out how to do life. And they are guidelines how to do life and how and above anything else to, to live a, a just and meaningful life that is not causing harm to others and not causing harm to the planet. 3 (27m 47s): And those are things, and of course I, you know, speak from a reform perspective, but I’ve spoken to conservative and orthodox Jews who feel the same way. But yeah, those are the things that to me are the most meaningful about Judaism and resonate with me the most. And when I, you know, and I’m not perfect and I practice my own brand of Judaism, but when I participate in Judaism and Jewish ritual and I’m around other Jews, I literally feel the strength of my ancestors. And I love that. 4 (28m 24s): That’s beautiful. 1 (28m 26s): I love that so much. So a few weeks ago, Shane and I were interviewed on this podcast about evangelicalism and the host asked us like, do you think evangelicalism, like is worth saving, can be saved? Like is there any good that could come outta that? And Shea and I were like, no, it’s gotta go. And so, you know, I think, I think that your, I think that your TikTok video about like, is it possible to be Christian and not anti-Semitic? I think it was one of the first ones that I saw about you. And I remember texting Shane being like, oh my God, what if we have to burn it all down? I think we might have, I think we might. So, so the, I mean, it’s very gracious of you to say, no, I don’t think Christianity has to cease existing, but you, like you could, this is a safe space for you to say that. 1 (29m 11s): And I would, I would take that with conviction, but you know, since you did say, well, yes, but it’s very, very, very difficult to do that. Like what would your advice be to Christians who are like, oh fuck, like my religion, like, has historically and in present day continues to be antisemitic, kind of like just by it existing. And so like what, what if anything can we do to make it not so, 3 (29m 41s): So much of Christianity that in the way that it’s practiced and preached on, you know, globally and wide scale, ha has to get reframed and reworked it. It can’t be that Jesus came to save everybody and now there’s no longer a need for Judaism. It has to be that the Jewish people have their own, you know, covenant with God and their own agreement. And that is separate from Christianity. There just needs to be separation. 3 (30m 22s): It has to stop being supersessionism. It has to stop being, this is a continuation. It has to stop being this idea that Jewish people have rejected our Messiah. And, and there has to be a respect of our, our text and how we read them and how, you know, and what we believe. Because as long as Christians believe that Jews are, you know, doomed to the fiery pits of hell, we’re gonna have a problem. And I think that is the biggest thing because people get really hateful about it. 3 (31m 10s): And when you start trying to have these conversations with Christians, they get very defensive and they really, really cannot let go of the idea that it’s, it’s okay, it’s okay that I don’t believe in Jesus. You don’t have to save me and I’m not going to hell. Like that’s just it. This idea that you have to believe one way or else go to be damned. It’s like, yeah, you know, and I don’t know, I don’t know how, it’s a lot of unlearning and I’ve seen pastor pastors and preachers on TikTok who, who are, who are doing it, who are saying, well, let’s reframe this Bible passage. 3 (32m 5s): Let’s like reframe this. And, you know, and, and that’s just what needs to happen on a, on a wide scale. It’s, you know, and accepting that if we say that our Torah doesn’t say what you are telling us, it says, then it, then it doesn’t say that like, you know, just calling it out, just calling it out and just listening to Jewish voices and listening and accepting and being open-minded. It’s, and again, learning, learning, learning your own history, learning Jewish history and learning Christian history. 2 (32m 44s): As someone who’s a huge book nerd, I’m wondering if you have any recommends for someone who wants to understand better how to read the Torah. 3 (32m 56s): Yeah, listen to rabbis. There are find, you know, Christians will often be like, but it says right here in the Bible. And it’s like, that’s not what it says in the Torah. And they’re convinced it’s the same thing. It’s not the same thing. And get, get Jewish translations and read the Jewish translations. My, my Hebrew learning is a really great website. They have the weekly Torah portions and they have the translations and they have like, like, I don’t know, almost cliff notes explanations and they’re, they’re Jewish explanations and their Jewish cliff notes and their Jewish summaries and it, yeah, listen to rabbis and read Jewish translations and yeah, definitely my Jewish learning do com is really, really great website if anybody wants to get information on what, what Jews believe the says and what, what Jewish interpretations are, I think that’s really helpful. 3 (34m 17s): I’ve had a lot of people ask questions and I’ve just referred them there and they’ve come back to me and been like, oh my gosh, I really had no idea. I just, you know, the Christian Bible says this and like, yeah, I didn’t even know the Christian Bibles like that. 1 (34m 38s): Yeah. I would also add, like, go follow you on TikTok at Milli, not so Vanilli. And you know, I think like, and you also, like, you are constantly like stitching to people or dueting the people and you know, I think like listeners can sort of like use you as an entryway into all sort of just like amazing, diverse, you know, Jewish voices. It’s not like, like you were saying, it’s not just one person, but we all have different opinions and different perspective on stuff. And I think like not just being like, oh, well I read one book, I yeah, I talked to one person. 3 (35m 14s): Well, yeah, that’s the other thing is you have to listen to many Jewish voices because part of our culture and part of our religion is, you know, critic critical thinking and arguing, like literally. And you know, there’s a saying two Jews, three opinions, and that’s for a reason and none of us agree on anything. And so you have to get a, a broad perspective when it comes to the religion, definitely listen to rabbis like above all else, if a rabbi you know is saying something that doesn’t sit right with you, seek out another rabbi, you know, and then get a bigger picture and then piece it together. 3 (36m 2s): If there is something that you find Jew, after Jew, after Jew is saying the same thing, listen to that. If you find Jew after Jew after Jew and then you find the one Jew saying something, that’s where then you use your critical thinking skills, you know, and try to figure that out for yourself. So yeah, it’s, it’s getting a wide variety of opinions and a and a and a bigger picture and understanding, you know, Jews are not a monolith and, and you know, using your brain about that. 1 (36m 45s): So I, I know that like TikTok can really be like sapo of grossness sometimes, but like, what have you really enjoyed about your experience being on TikTok and sort of being a creator there? 3 (37m 2s): I love the Jewish community. I’ve made so many friends, especially in this pandemic, being able to have a Jewish community. It’s so important. I feel like as Jews we are lost without each other. And so being able to still have a community while in quarantine, being able to find people that really, really do wanna do better and the intersectionality, there’s the, the diversity of Jewish identities can, can really, really be seen on TikTok. And I love that. 3 (37m 42s): I love that I have become friends with like, a lot of, not just Christians but Christian leaders, a lot of ministers and pastors and preachers who are really, really doing the work. And it gives me a lot of hope and a lot of faith and it makes me feel a little bit less doomed. And it’s been really rewarding seeing the people who it clicks for. I say something and they are like, I’ve never thought of that. I’m so sorry. I’ve been, you know, I’ve had my head up my ass my entire life and I think I need to remove it now. 3 (38m 28s): And that’s, that’s been really, that’s been a really positive experience being that I’m not trying to make white supremacists and Nazis like me. It’s the people that had no idea that they had these unconscious anti-Semitic biases. And, and a lot of people are really unpacking that, and it’s because of TikTok, which is insane. 1 (38m 56s): Yeah, I feel like I’ve, you know, you know, had Jewish friends growing up and studied religion in college, so like with rabbis and do this work. And I still, even, even with all of that, you and the other creators on TikTok are still like blowing my mind on a daily and weekly basis. So, so thank you for the work that you put in. 3 (39m 16s): Yeah. Thank you. 1 (39m 18s): And then one of the questions that we’ve kind of been asking all of our guests is like, separate from your work or outside of your work, what’s something that’s been bringing you joy lately? 3 (39m 30s): Hmm. Well, I mean, I, it’s winter now. I do have a little kind of greenhouse set up in my yard and it’s too cold for a lot of stuff, but I, I can do root vegetables and greens and so I’ve, I’ve got my carrots and beets are, are going strong and I’ve got some kale and some arugula, and I’m already like, ready for spring. I’m ready to hit the ground running. And that’s like the, I don’t know what else, because otherwise I’m trapped in my house with my kids and I, I love them, but this, this pandemic’s been rough and being outside and have, having something to nurture and grow that doesn’t yell at me. 3 (40m 26s): It’s really nice. 1 (40m 30s): I love it. Well, thank you again for being here and if folks want to like connect more with you, obviously, like if there’s your TikTok, is there anywhere else that you would like to sort of point folks to, to learn more about what you’re up to or stay connected with you? 3 (40m 46s): Yeah, I have my TikTok and then I have my Instagram of the same name, so Millie, so same name on TikTok as on Instagram. And I can receive messages on Instagram and I’m happy to respond. Sometimes it takes a while because I’m tired, but you know, that’s a great place if anyone has any questions or just wants to let me know something. Yeah, my, my Instagram is there and my dms are open. 1 (41m 26s): Awesome. Well thank you so much again. This has been so great. Thank you. We are so excited to finally have some merch for you. We put together an online shop@store.ology.com that is full of fabulous products to help you show off the pride that you have in your faith, in your sexuality, in your gender, in being an ally. And not only will you look fabulous doing it, but you will also help to support this podcast and keep it all in the air. You can go to store dot queer theology.com to check out all of the new merch and use promo code podcast to get 10% off your first order. 1 (42m 8s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 2 (42m 17s): To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. 1 (42m 25s): We’ll see you next week. Libsyn Ads (42m 30s): Marketing is hard, but I’ll tell you a little secret. It doesn’t have to be, let me point something out. You’re listening to a podcast right now and it’s great. You love the host, you seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion and this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience and their favorite podcasts with Libs syn ads, go to libsyn ads.com. That’s L-I-B-S-Y-N ads.com today. Beautiful Anonymous (43m 12s): Hi, I am Chris Ghar and I’m very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. I talk to one of them, they stay anonymous. I can’t hang up. That’s all the rules. I never know what’s gonna happen. We get serious ones. I’ve talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I’ve talked to people who survive mass shootings, crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what’s gonna happen. It’s a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful anonymous. The post Celebrating Jewish Empowerment and Teaching the Masses with Milli Not So Vanilli appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re revisiting our interview episode with the remarkable Dr. Christena Cleveland. Dr. Cleveland is an author, activist and a founder and director of the Center for Justice + Renewal as well as its sister organization, Sacred Folk. Tune in as Fr. Shay talks with Dr. Cleveland about her journey to find the Black Madonna and the Sacred Feminine, what that means for her view of the white, male god and her evangelical upbringing, and how wisdom and the Sacred Divine can be found within ourselves. Grab a copy of her book: God Is a Black Woman Liberating the Mind Body course Dr. Cleveland Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cscleve Website: https://www.christenacleveland.com/ https://www.justiceandrenewal.org/   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy. And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. I’m so, so, so excited. Dr. Christina Cleveland PhD is a social psychologist, public theologian, author and activist. She’s the founder and director of the Center for Justice and Renewal, as well as its sister organization, sacred Folk, which creates resources to stimulate people’s spiritual imaginations and support their journeys toward liberation. (50s): An award-winning researcher and, and former professor at Duke University’s Divinity School. Christina lives in Boston, Massachusetts. Today I’m this episode Father Shea talks with her about her extensive work as well as her book, God as a Black woman looking at her pilgrimages to visit black Madonna’s. And so much insight in this one. I cannot wait for you to, to hear it. Enjoy. Well, we’ve already read your fancy bio, but I would love to start by asking, like if we were at a cocktail party, a fun cocktail party, and someone asked you to introduce yourself and what you do, how do you, how do you explain yourself and your work? (1m 33s): I usually tell people that I’m an artist who stimulates spiritual imaginations, and I’m someone that curates and gathers adventurous people who wanna go beyond what they think they know about spirituality. Hmm. That’s amazing. I love that. I, I am obsessed with your book. It’s so, so, so good. And one of the things that I, I was really struck by is like, you write so beautifully about finding God in the particularity of your and her experience as a black woman. And then you also open that up to sharing how finding that is not just for black women. (2m 17s): And I, and I think so often people assume that theologies from the particulars are just for people who share those particulars. And I wonder if you can start out by sharing a little bit more about why it matters that people who aren’t from those particulars learn from seeing God in this way. Hmm. Well, I can tell you why it’s been so important for me to learn from theological viewpoints that are really different from my own. I don’t think I could have gone on my journey, to be honest, without Palestinian liberation theology about seven or eight years ago when I was first getting connected to liberation theology. (2m 59s): Of course, I was reading the Black Liberation theologians, both male and female and non-binary. But it was so powerful for me to hear, like read Nama Te, who was talking about Samson as the first suicide bomber. And just that just stimulated my, my, my imagination beyond my experience and just really gave me license to go beyond my experience and to find God outside of my experience. And for, and that that particular example, you know, to see the humanity and the divinity and the sacredness of suicide bombers like that. I mean, that’s why we read theologies outside of our background, is so that we can see the sacredness in other people and, and start to fight for that sacredness too, and, and not just have the people from that background be fighting for that sacredness. (3m 55s): So I would say that it’s been a huge part of my journey to be nourished by theologies outside of my experience. But also, I mean, I think the Black Madonna, which so much of my spirituality is centered around these days, she’s so, she’s so expansive. You know, in my book I pit her against white male God, who is kind of like, you know, I talk about his teeny tiny circle, his teeny tiny terrifying circle of acceptability, right? It’s like a pinpoint, like hardly anybody gets to be part of it. He’s like the king of exclusivity and she’s like the queen of inclusivity. But I feel like that language is not ideal. (4m 36s): ’cause inclusivity is so weak, weakened, but I think she’s like the queen of equity, like the people that have been cast aside, she says, be front and center, very similar to Jesus who said, in the first shall be last and the last, she’ll be first. But people don’t really take that seriously in general, don’t really take that seriously. But I think if we get behind her, her, her real movement of literally taking the first and putting them at the foot at the table and literally taking the last and putting at the, at the foot, at the front, the head, then anyone who’s not black, who has privilege, at least in western society for being non-black, will have to start to see that blackness is part of the sacredness of, and the, the, I love the way James s says, he says, blackness is the image of God in black people, right? (5m 35s): And so if we’re starting to read like these theologies out, like so a non-black person reading the, reading my book, or reading a, a black liberation theologian or a womanist can start to see that, that image of God in the world, in the form of blackness, and that’s healing to everyone who’s been poisoned by anti-blackness, black people, white people, Asian, whatever race you are, we’ve been poisoned. And it’s so healing and beautiful and, and it’s shocking. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. You this, you have this amazing quote where you say, regardless of our racial and gender identity is the liberating sacred black feminine, personally invites each of us to examine which God we have been implicitly taught to worship, and how that God has shaped us a God who is exclusively white and male, or even predominantly white and male is never going to be safe because he cannot affirm the sacredness of non-white and non-male people. (6m 34s): And I just, I, I think that’s, that’s such an important thing for people to hear, and I think it’s probably also shocking for some people to hear. I’m, I’m wondering how that quote in particular has resonated with folks and, and how you, how you got to that, that place. I know that that’s a really big question and your book is all about that journey, but like Yeah. For folks that, you know, to entice them to read the book. Yeah. You know, I think, I think a lot of people struggle with that idea. I, I would affirm what you’re saying. I think we have been, many of us have been discipled to think that spirituality should be easy and comfortable and feel good. (7m 23s): I remember reading books when I was like, back in the evangelical world, you know, growing up like, you know, go on a coffee date with Jesus or something like that. You know, just like kind of snugly cute image, which is it, which was interesting because the Jesus that was being presented to me was actually quite scary and not snugly and warm, but there was this, there was also this, this other flavor of, I would say, white patriarchy that’s like, this should be easy all the time. And that way you never really go on a real spiritual adventure, which is not easy all the time, but is always fulfilling. And so, you know, I think people really struggle with that, the challenge of that. (8m 6s): But then I’d also say, I think people really struggle with divesting from their allegiance to white male God, because for many people, white male, God has, and the whole idea behind white male God has propped them up and given them resources and power that they otherwise wouldn’t have. And to actually practice repar, the reparations of being aligned with the interests of the sacred black feminine is costly. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. And it’s, so, it’s such important work. (8m 47s): And I, I think one of the things that I’m, I’ve been really struck by in, in reading your book is, and you talked about this earlier, is, is that, you know, that tiny little pinprick of, of acceptability is that like investing in these structures of, of white male God are like, not actually serving any of us, but we have this idea that if we just get in that somehow we’ll be okay. And, and we see this a lot in the like queer and trans movement too, of, of this push for respectability. I I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about how you have learned or been learning to divest yourself from this idea of respectability and, and what that has done for you. (9m 37s): Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting because the, my book ends, the, the pilgrimage part that I write about in my book ends in late 2018. And so, you know, that’s almost four years ago now. And so it’s so funny ’cause I’m thinking, oh, a lot has changed since then that I didn’t write about in the book. One of the things was, I remember the last like, walk on my pilgrimage, maybe I was gonna go home a couple days later. I was thinking to myself, I could have this beautiful, transformative experience. I could even write about this beautiful, transformative experience. But if I don’t go home and integrate this into my everyday life, this is kind of not gonna do, this is not gonna liberate me. (10m 23s): And so I, I was already starting to think, if I go back to this, so I’ve had this experience where I have profoundly encountered this idea that God is in fact a black woman. So how does that change my life? Okay, well, that means that if God is really truly a black woman, then there’s no way she wants me to work in this dehumanizing academic position that I’m in. If God is truly a black woman, that if I leave this position somehow, somewhere, there will be a, there will be resources for me. I don’t know how, I don’t know where, but I can’t believe in a God that knows my experience and relates to my experience and wouldn’t in some way provide for me to be free. (11m 12s): If God is truly a black woman, then how is that gonna be reflected in my finances and what sorts of resources I’m keeping for myself assist black women that could be used in to support the lives of trans black women. And so it’s not hard to just follow that logic and really kind of like, put your money where your mouth is, or put your energy where your mouth is. And to me, every single time I’ve asked that question, I’ve had a choice. Like, do I want to go back into the safety of white male God, because I can do okay in that world. (11m 52s): It’s not healthy and it’s not free, but my bills are paid and I have health insurance and things like that, or I can keep getting free. And I kind of, I’ve thought ever since my pilgrimage, I’ve thought a lot about Harriet Tubman, my ancestor, because I imagine that she, you know, she was born on a plantation. She was raised on a plantation. She was taught this is the best life can possibly get, get for you. The, the best you can do is try to survive in this space. And then some days she just woke up and was like, I’m too sacred for this. And started to plan to leave. But we have no idea what happened in that time when she was like, how did she convince herself that it’s liberation’s worth it? (12m 42s): Even in this landscape off the plantation where she doesn’t know the language, she doesn’t have transferable skills, she doesn’t know who’s trustworthy and who’s not. She doesn’t know the geography. And that’s what we’re all dealing with when we decide to take a step towards abundance. And she, she wrote, she talks a lot about in her, in her writings and her speeches about the North Star. So she found this spiritual resource that she could look to. And that’s kind of what I do with the Black Madonna. You know, it’s like, I, I have them all over my house and sometimes people wonder why I even have a plastic black Madonna in my shower. And, and people always wonder why. And I say, well, I need to be reminded all the time that I’m sacred too, And that I can say no to this opportunity, or I can actually have a frank conversation in this relationship. (13m 33s): Or I can give sacrificially in this way, even though it scares me because I’m sacred too. And if I’m sacred too, then just like Jesus said, if I clothe the sparrows, I’m gonna clothe you too. Live your life. Don’t be afraid. You know, but I, it’s like I’m afraid. So I need to be reminded all the time that, that I don’t have to be afraid, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I, I wanna dive more into the Black Madonna and your pilgrimage in just a second, but one more question on, on this topic, because you talked about how much of your work at one point was trying to convince people to see your humanity and how exhausting that was, and how it was all about like, hoping that they would one day give a shit about you. (14m 24s): And I, I think that for many of our listeners who, who are in that space in their churches trying to convince churches to care about trans people or queer folks and who are also grappling with the reality that, like, especially for trans folks, we’re a very small percentage of the population. So at some point we do need cis folks to care in order to change politics. Like how do you, how do you grapple with, with that space of not wanting to be in a position to ask people to see your humanity, but also needing to figure out like how to, how to get things to change. Yeah. Yeah. This is another area where I think Palestinian theology was really trans transformative for me. (15m 8s): ’cause they, they really take seriously the mustard seed in the Bible. And so I, so, you know, I, and I can’t speak from personal experience because I’m cis and what’s the percentage of trans folks? Less than 1%. Yeah. Best, best we can get It. And, you know, I, as a black person, I’m, I’m like 14% of the population in the United States, so it’s not the same thing. That said, one of the things that I have learned is, well, I think when I was trying to convince, and it was white people that I was trying to convince of my humanity, I had this idea that was like a white male God infused idea that like, white people are like a secret weapon. (15m 55s): And if you get white people to care, then like people then, like people will care. And Emma Martin Luther King had that same approach until he didn’t, and then he got killed, right? But like early on he thought, we need to convince, you know, the good, the so-called good white person. And he thought, you know, it really has to be a moral majority. And Palestinian theologians would disagree. They really would. They would say, you don’t need a lot people, you just need the right people. And to me, that’s been a practice of surrender to abundance. Because now I can ask the question, do I need to put myself out there in one of those tough conversations? (16m 39s): Right. Because I really, if I don’t say it, it won’t get said, if these people don’t get on board, get, don’t get on board and funded it, it won’t get funded. Right. Or so that, which would be a fearful reason for entering into that conversation versus like an abundant reason for entering outta that conversation, which is, we have what we need cosmically, I’m gonna invite this person for their good to participate in what’s happening here. Hmm. And so it’s, it’s not necessarily different words, but the abundant way is a lot less resource consuming, I’ll tell you that. (17m 22s): And, and I can, I find that I can be a lot wiser in who and when I engage those conversations, it’s not that, oh my gosh, I have to have every, you know, I, I have to, I have to, I have to, that urgency is gone to a certain extent. And you know, I’ll say as a cis person, that’s all the more reason why cis people need to be doing this work. ’cause it’s not trans people’s responsibility. Right. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a really helpful Think people need to care about race because it’s not black people’s responsibility. Right? Right. Yeah. If, if anyone’s having tough conversations in my church community around, around transness, I should be the one taking any hits or whatever, you know? (18m 10s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s a really helpful reframe. Thank you for that. Sure. I, so I would love to talk about the black Madonna and the sacred black feminine. And I, I wonder if you can start by saying, you know, for, for folks who maybe grew up in more evangelical or Protestant traditions for whom both the idea of Madonna’s and this pilgrimage to see these figures might be foreign. Can, can you just talk a little bit about how you found this and also like how you made that shift? Because I also know that you grew up in, in a Protestant circle for whom this was not part of, of your growing up. Yeah. I, so I, yeah. (18m 51s): I grew up in a, in a community where Catholicism was satanic basically. Right. And so we weren’t even really allowed to interact with Catholics. Yeah. It’s so sad to me that people don’t know more about the Black Madonna. It’s a conspiracy. It’s like a patriarchal conspiracy. And, and it’s interesting ’cause a lot, most Catholics don’t even know about the Black Madonna, but she’s te okay, so what do I wanna say about this? ’cause it’s so big. How did I find her? I was desperate. I had been desperate. I, I was knowingly desperate beginning in 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman. (19m 37s): At that time, I was really rooted in the evangelical world doing a lot of speaking and writing. And it was the first real sort of national experience that I had where these people who claimed I was a part of their family and loved me, could not hear me or black people. And that was the first time I experienced that as an adult. And so that’s when I started to really question the validity of white Jesus. ’cause I was pretty quickly able to make a connection between white Jesus and white, the, the sacredness of George Zimmerman and the reliability of George Zimmerman and the, the virtue of George Zimmerman versus Trayvon Martin. (20m 22s): But then in 2016, when Donald Trump was elected after having boasted about sexually assaulting white women, I was shocked. ’cause I knew, I know evangelicals don’t care about black people, but I certainly thought they cared about their precious white cis women. And I like to joke that like white femininity is like a fruit of the spirit in that world. You know? Like, it’s just like so valuable and used against everything. Right? And so I, I was really shocked. And that’s when I really started to, you know, grapple with the problem of male Jesus, exclusively male Jesus. (21m 8s): And so I was desperate. I just was like, where can I find any images of the divine that are black and female? Because we need, we need it all. And you know, Google didn’t, I mean, once you have the question, like I feel like the universe responds pretty quickly. So I found the Black Madonna that way, just searching. And I was shocked that, you know, she’s within Catholicism, although she’s obviously not owned by Catholicism. And I just went on a journey. But I will tell you, like, I feel like my biology changed the moment I saw a pic, a picture of her, like, and I exhaled in a way that I, I didn’t realize I had been holding my breath my whole life. (21m 50s): And I think I was like 35 at the time or something. So it was just one of those, like, you know, it’s interesting ’cause you know, you look back as a kid, I grew up, you know, I grew up so much in church, so I, and I’m, I’m very evangelical, so I’m like super biblically literate. And you know, I just, I think so much about like, these times when people would encounter Christ, Jesus Christ, and they would be like, changed this like weird boring interaction. You know, we’re fishing and we’re having breakfast afterwards, and then he’s there and then we’re changed and we just drop everything and follow him. You know? That’s how I felt when I met the Black Madonna. (22m 33s): Yeah. And so then you went on this, this pilgrimage, this journey to visit all of these, these different statues. What, what was that experience like for you? And, and what, why did you feel like you needed to, to go and, and be in person with these Figures? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I did about a year and a half of book research, and I did some, like e-course and stuff like that. There’s something so embodied about the Black Madonna, when you read the stories across the millennia about her, people would often pilgrimage and walk. (23m 15s): But then, and I noticed this as soon as I became devoted to the Black Madonna, I ordered off Etsy, like a little black Madonna necklace. And I, I was, I hated my job. I was a professor at Duke Divinity School at the time, and I was terrified to even be in the building. ’cause there were just a lot, there was a lot going on that was really violent there. And I remember putting on my necklace every morning ritually and being like, okay, like, I’m not alone and going into work. And it got to the point where, you know, two weeks after this practice, I was halfway to work and had forgotten it. And I turned around and went back, which is like, so Catholic, right? Like, I’m not gonna Go throughout my Day without my talisman or my, you know, my ritual. (23m 58s): But I was, I was amazed at how quickly I went from like, like, you know, in the evangelical world, it was like, oh, I would just be, I would recite a, a a memory verse to myself or something, you know. But it was just interesting to notice how quickly I shifted to embodiment. And then I also realized, like, part of what she was inviting me into was connecting with her beyond my head, and not just the book research and not just the PowerPoint presentations. And then I wanted to walk because so many other people have walked across the centuries. And also I, you know, the more I learned about eco womanism and the ways in which black women’s bodies have been antagonized and, and our relationship to the earth has been antagonized, I really wanted to connect with my body and connect with the earth as a practice of connecting with her. (24m 54s): So I ended up going to her, it, it aligned quite well with a paid leave that I had from Duke too. So, you know, it was nice that they paid for the trip and I had the time off to go do it. Yeah. But I went to go visit 18 different black Madonnas on that first pilgrimage, and I walked a little over 400 miles and it took about five weeks. I, I love that. I, I love your comments about being embodied because I, I think for so many of us who grew up in evangelical traditions, right? That sense of, of disembodied spirit or head knowledge is so pervasive. (25m 35s): And I think I, I know as a trans person, like I really called that holy, right? That disconnect from my body was like, well, I’m just like extra holy because I hate my body and I don’t wanna be in it. And, and so I’ve loved reading your book and, and how this practice really like Reem embodied you in a lot of ways, ways. Can you talk more about like how, how that has been transformative? This this, the Reem embodiment? Yeah. Well, nowadays I see my own body as the primary source of wisdom and guidance. (26m 16s): So I start with myself, and this is huge for me because I grew up in both a home and a church community where wisdom’s outside of you and you better make sure all the people whose opinions you value agree with whatever it is you think about anything or whatever decision you’re hoping to make. And so that’s been a huge shift for me. Another way is it’s forced me to slow down and to realize that, you know, one of, one of the people who’s taught me a lot about contemplative walking is like, you know, the body was designed to move at three miles per hour. (26m 58s): Like, we move a lot faster than that for lots of reasons because of technology and in part because of technology and capitalism. But it was really designed to, so it’s really forced me to rethink, redefine what it means to be effective, what it means to be efficient, redefine time, redefine even like the journey. You know, I, if I was telling my editor once we finalized the book and it was off to the press, if I’d had time for one more major revision, I would have made the book way funnier, because I’m funnier than the book suggest. And also because it was, it was funny. (27m 41s): Like, it was, it was hilarious to be out on this pilgrimage thinking about the absurdity of white male God, and how white male god’s always rushing you and always making you feel like you’re not doing enough, fast enough and big enough. And to actually be with these black Madonnas that have been their, I mean, like, there’s this one black Madonna that I went to go see who’s not in the book. ’cause you know, I couldn’t talk about all of them in the book. She’s the black Madonna of Lapu, and she has been there for at, since at least the year 400, but she’s probably Isis or Bel. (28m 25s): So she’s deeper than that because, than than the year 400. But she’s so powerful and so many people in that region pilgrimage to her to be, to touch her, to pray with her, to hear, have her listen to them. And the Catholic church came gentrified, the place turned her into, you know, built, tore down the temple that people had been worshiping the ancient goddess on, built a ca, you know, a Catholic cathedral on top of it. And she’s basically just become the queen of the cathedral. But that place where she is is the start of the Camino in France. (29m 9s): And so she, like, she’s been blessing and interacting with pilgrims for like over 1500 years with it, with no fanfare, with like, no headlines, but imagine like how people have been transformed on that pilgrimage and have gone out and done these amazing things that have changed the world, right? And she hasn’t gotten any other credit for it. And I feel like that’s what the invitation is. It’s so anti-white male god, right? She’s like, okay, you wanna change my name? Fine, labels don’t matter. Okay, you wanna change the trappings around my house? Fine, that doesn’t matter. (29m 49s): I’m gonna keep here. I’m gonna stay here quietly, but powerfully doing my work, transforming the world. And so when I think about her, I think size, efficiency, effectiveness, bottom lines, all those things don’t matter when you have access to a mystical power. And it’s like, I can’t, I can’t imagine there’s a more influential walking pilgrimage place than where she is. You know? Like, and like she’s, yet no one even knows. Yeah. That’s Amazing. Everyone starts there though. It starts right there at her cathedral. It’s so cool. (30m 30s): Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And it’s funny because when I first said I was gonna go on a walking pilgrimage in France, and people asked me if I was gonna do the Camino, and I was like super haughty about it. I’m like, man, the Camino’s in Spain. In Spain and plus there’s no black Madonnas. Ha, i I was completely Wrong. I wanted to be just like super unique. Actually, I, yeah, I was kind of on the Camino that one time when I went to visit her. I’m basic just like everybody Else, you Know, I’m, I’m wondering what you would say to someone who, who heard you talk about trusting yourself as this, as the first source of wisdom, who felt a little bit of panic about like, oh, I, I can’t, I can’t trust, I, I can’t trust my body, I can’t trust myself. (31m 22s): What would you say to them? I’d have a lot of compassion. I felt the same way. The fir, I didn’t put this in the, I wrote the story, but it didn’t make it into the book. I, the first Bible verse I learned when I was three years old, the first one my mom thought it was important to teach us was Jeremiah 17, nine. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it. And so at three years old when my little brain was forming, I was learning that the last person I should trust is me. And I remember having to do a whole year of therapy with just a one therapist who’s highly specialized in evangelical spiritual abuse, just to get past that. (32m 12s): Mm. So I get it. It is terrifying. It’s absolutely terrifying to have to, to, to even, to even fathom seeing yourself as sacred and not just sacred as in like, I’m worthy of someone dying for me, but sacred as in the divine wisdom that’s in the world is in me too. And yeah, it’s so scary and part, and part of the reason why it’s really scary is because for many of us, the body often feels like an inhospitable place because it carries so much trauma. And so I would say, you know, I, I’d have a lot of compassion for someone who feels a little freaked out by that, by that idea. (32m 59s): And I would also say, go really gently and kindly with yourself and try to get some support from a trauma informed person. Because there’s a reason why we hate our bodies and are afraid of our bodies and feel like our, we’re like, we’re estranged from our bodies. There’s a lot of trauma in there. And it, and oftentimes when we do look inward, it’s too scary to do it alone or we move too quickly. And so, I mean, there’s so much fear in my body. There’s so much insecurity in my body, and it’s only through years, several years now, I that I’ve been doing a body like body wisdom practice pretty intensely, you know, pretty intentionally that I’m starting to able to be with that and allow it to be there along with the other things. (33m 50s): And, but we’re taught the, we’re taught to not do that, and we’re taught to fear that. Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine, you know, I, I know in my, my story, you know, for people who read the book, I, I did experience quite a bit of body dysmorphia as someone with an eating disorder. I know a lot of my trans friends have had body dysmorphia for that reason, or for other reasons too. So that’s, that’s yet another reason to actual, like, harmful perceptions of our bodies or hate actual hatred of our bodies, you know, it’s very scary. So find someone who’s really loving and trauma-informed to be there with you. (34m 34s): Yeah. Yeah. You posted on social media on Instagram about God being a black trans woman, and then that created a kerfuffle and, and then you posted about how that kind of pushback made you even more convinced. I, I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about both the post and, And what that’s Yeah. So I got the pushback from a line in my book towards the end of my book. I just, you know, I’m talking about how if we really want to practice the sacred black feminine, not just, you know, claim some allegiance to her, we have to get into formation around her, what, what she values. (35m 19s): You know, this, this journey towards the Black Madonna has really expanded my own theological understandings of God. And I really feel like the Black Madonna is inviting, is inviting me into, okay, so let me, let me go back. So in the book, I talk a lot about how like white male, God has set up this pecking order, and she comes and completely disrupts that saying that the least of these, the black women are actually the ones who are sacred. And in doing so, she makes all of us sacred, right? But I’m a cis black, light skinned, upwardly mobile, formerly educated black woman. (36m 7s): I am not the least of these amongst black women. The least of these amongst black women is black trans women who have an average life expectancy of 34 years and are on average gonna make less than $10,000 a year in income. And so when the Black Madonna says, I’m completely reordering the pecking order per se, it means putting black trans women at top on the top. So when I say if God’s a black woman, then she must be a black trans woman. Yeah, I was surprised. I, I shouldn’t have been because my trans friends have talked to me about turfs, but I was surprised by how many people turfs were really upset that I included black trans women in my discussion of God as a black woman. (36m 60s): And it did make me more, more convinced because that, that behavior suggests that turfs don’t think that trans black women are sacred. And so that made me even more convinced that trans black women are sacred, and that, that the work that I do as a cis woman should be in alignment with that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I, I also love, I, I think your book is such a great example of how easy it is to be inclusive. And, and so subtly too of, of there was a, a line about like, I know not all women menstruate and not all people who menstruate are women. (37m 43s): And I was like, it, it’s not, it’s not that hard to include that and to just make space. I just, I felt so great, grateful for the ways in which your book made space for trans identities. And I just wanted to say thank you for that and thank you for providing a, a model, an example of, of how to do that well for cis folks. Really Appreciate that. Thank you. I’m, I, I asked a, a black trans man to help me edit it and, and consult on that. And also a non-binary Latinx person because I knew there’s so much danger in writing a book called God as a Black woman. And I, I mean, I’m sure there are things out there that, you know, a year from now I’ll be more aware and be like, oh, like, you know, like those things. (38m 29s): But it was, it was definitely a group effort. Yeah. Where, where, what are you working on now? What is kind of the new horizon that you’re excited about and, and exploring? So, so soon? Soon, I think in like two weeks, and I don’t know when this podcast is gonna air, we’re start, we’re launching a new e-course called Liberating the Mind Body Spirit from Capitalism. So I am like deep in thinking and moving and writing and thinking about getting free from the fear and connecting with abundance. So that’s really fun. I am also working on an e-course that we’re doing this winter starting in January called Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and Mahalia Jackson. (39m 18s): Cool. And that’s gonna be timeless lessons on anti-racist leadership. So I’m, I am, it’s, I, I taught a class at Duke in, that was actually, that actually met in the prisons in North Carolina. One at Butner Prison, which is a federal prison. And the other one is Central, which was a state prison. And so half my students were incarcerated men and the other half were male Duke students, and that one was on Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. So I, I’m, I’m pretty connected to their stories. So right now I’m spending a lot of time connecting with Mahalia Jackson story, and that’s been really neat. And I’m am starting to work on a book proposal, so we’ll see another, not another book. ’cause I feel like this book is really about me, but I’m gonna write a book about the Black Madonna. (40m 3s): Love it. That’ll be her book. Yeah. Not, not as much of my story, but hopefully a lot of other people’s stories as told through her. So yeah. It’s, there’s always, yeah. And my team members know, just be careful. ’cause the vision changes all the time. Right. Just be flexible. If, if people wanted to find you or follow your work, what, what’s the best place for them to connect with you? Patreon is where I’m doing most of my work. I’m pretty flaky on socials. I stopped intentionally posting on socials and now I just post whenever I feel like it, which can be a lot or none, depending on how I feel. (40m 50s): So Patreon’s a great way, especially if you’re white and you wanna support somebody who’s not white. And, but you can also sign up. I mean, if you, if anyone goes to my website, christina cleveland.com, there’s so many ways to get involved. We also have a free newsletter that’s like really luxurious. Like, it’s just like we designed it so you Can just Slowly scroll and see beautiful images and insightful quotes and it feels like a bath. It really does. It feels like a really good spiritual bath. Yeah. Those are some of the best ways. Very cool. And we love to end by asking everyone, what’s one thing that’s been bringing you joy lately? (41m 33s): Well, it’s starting to be fall here again. And last fall while I was in France, I got connected to this type of fabric called raccoon wool. And it changed my life. It’s like cashmere on steroids. Like it’s so soft and amazing and warm and it’s literally, they literally just sheer raccoons. So it’s sustainable. That’s Amazing. It’s like Sheep wool, but it’s raccoons. So there are no raccoons killed in the making of my raccoon wool sweater. (42m 14s): But I do have a 100% raccoon wool sweater. That is amazing. And I bought it in Paris last year, so That’s so cool. Bringing me a lot of joy. ’cause it’s nice to snuggle up. Yeah. Maybe not the most, you know, deep thing. It’s not. No, I love that. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for, for being a part of this podcast and for taking the time to have this conversation. Just really appreciate it. Thank you. I’m honored to be invited. Thank you again to Dr. Cleveland for being on the show. We have another interview coming to you next week, rabbi Denise Egger, my rabbi here in Los Angeles, who I’ve learned from so much and new interviews every week long through January. (43m 4s): Just as a reminder, supporters on Patreon get early access to episodes and that help to keep this podcast on the air. So if you are enjoying this, you’re excited for it, you want even more of it, patreon.com/queer theology to support the show. You can also support the show just by leaving a review. Every review helps us get the word out and to combat the haters out there who want to bring us down just because we’re queer. So thank you for being here and we’ll see you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LG BT Q Christians, and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. (43m 45s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post God is a Black Woman with Dr. Christena Cleveland appeared first on Queer Theology.

We welcome Miryam Kabakov to the podcast this week. Miryam is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGTBQ+ individuals in the Orthodox world. She is Executive Director and ​co-founder of Eshel, @eshelonline, a national organization that supports LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families. Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miryam was the New York and National Program Director of AVODAH: The Jewish Service Corps, Director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan, Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps.  She founded the New York Orthodykes, a support group for lesbian, bisexual and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of “Keep Your Wives Away From Them: Orthodox Women, Unorthodox Desires,” a collection of writings about the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. In this conversation, Miryam shares her journey of growing up in a modern Orthodox community while grappling with her LGBTQ identity with Brian. She discusses the challenges of acceptance within her family and the broader Orthodox community, and how these experiences led her to found Eshel, an organization dedicated to supporting LGBTQ Jews. Miryam emphasizes the importance of community, rituals, and the ongoing work to create inclusive spaces within Orthodox Judaism. She also reflects on the evolving landscape of LGBTQ acceptance in religious contexts and the power of obligation and connection in fostering supportive environments.   Takeaways Miryam’s upbringing in a modern Orthodox community shaped her understanding of faith and queerness. The importance of community in navigating LGBTQ identity within Orthodox spaces. A-Shell was founded to create supportive environments for LGBTQ Jews and their families. Coming out is a continuous journey, especially in Orthodox contexts. Family acceptance can take time, but patience is key. Creating inclusive rituals is essential for LGBTQ individuals in Orthodox life. The future of queer Judaism holds hope for greater acceptance and understanding. Obligation to care for one another is a core value in Jewish tradition. Retreats provide a safe space for LGBTQ individuals to connect and share experiences. Communication and connection are vital for bridging gaps between communities.   Chapters (04:38) Growing Up Orthodox and LGBTQ: A Personal Narrative (08:58) The Formation of A-Shell: Building Community (13:31) Navigating Dual Identities: Coming Out Experiences (18:05) Creating Inclusive Spaces: The Work of A-Shell (22:31) Ritual Innovations in the Orthodox Community (24:11) Navigating Orthodox Jewish Law and Queer Identity (27:36) The Intersection of Gender and Ritual (29:26) Faith and Acceptance in Queer Identity (32:27) Challenges of Inclusivity in Orthodox Communities (34:24) Retreats: A Safe Space for LGBTQ+ Jews (37:12) The Attraction of Orthodoxy for Queer Individuals (40:57) The Power of Obligation and Community Support   Resources: Learn more about Miryam and Eshel here: www.eshelonline.org  Follow Eshel on IG @eshelonline Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (10s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today on the podcast, we have a really special interview. Miriam Kabakov is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals in the Orthodox world. Miriam is executive director and co-founder of Elle, a national organization that supports LGBTQ plus Orthodox individuals and their families. (53s): Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miriam was the New York and National Program Director of Voda, The Jewish Service Corps, director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. Miriam received her MSW from the World’s Wilder School of Social Work. She also received a certificate in fundraising from the University of St. Thomas, and a certificate in program evaluation from the University of Washington, and has a background in informal Jewish education from Brandeis University. She founded the New York Orthodox, a support group for lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of Keep Your Wives Away From Them, Orthodox Women Unorthodox Desires published by North Atlantic Books in May of 2010. (1m 37s): A collection of writings are the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. On a more personal note, I’m so excited to share this interview with you because I’ve seen up close and personal lives that have been transformed by a Shell. I just can’t help but keep coming back to the idea that we are stronger together and Miriam is working to make that a reality. Miriam, thanks so much for being here on the podcast with us. I’m, it’s really excited to talk to you. I got an impressive list of accomplishments and things that you’ve done both for the Jewish world and the LGBT community, And I, I know our audience is gonna be in for a treat with you today. (2m 17s): Thank you so much, Ryan. It’s really an honor to be here. I wanna, before we dive into sort of present day Miran and the work that you’re doing with Michelle, can you just take us back to a more like child, a younger version of yourself, and that’s sort of like, what was it like for you growing up? How does religion and queerness intersect for you and when did you start to become aware that maybe there was a rift or maybe people told you there should be a rift there? What, like, what was that, what was that upbringing like for you? Sure. I can go there. I go there a lot because calls that we get on our warm line always often make me think of myself as, you know, know a younger person, a younger version of health. (3m 2s): And it’s always remarkable to me that these many decades later people are still saying the things that I said when I was younger. And that is, I am the only one. I must be the only one. This is crazy. How could God have made me this way? You know, what I know about our tradition and our religion and what’s supposed to be the right way to live doesn’t really jive with how I’m feeling inside. Now, I grew up in a modern Orthodox community going to modern Orthodox Day school, and that means that meant to me that the modern world and orthodoxy had a way of coexisting, and that everything we learned, sort of both, both of those things had to make sense of each other in order to have that like understanding and combination of the modern world and the ancient world and our faith and science. (3m 59s): And so the way I grew up was that this is gonna be okay, but I didn’t know how. And what I mean is that what we would learn in school was like, how do you apply ancient texts and ancient laws and customs to modern day problems? So my father was an A doctor in New York City, and he used to take me as a young person to these medical ethics meetings with, you know, the Fed Jewish Federation in New York. And you know, and they would ask all of these really interesting questions, you know, about like death and dying and, you know, how do we deal with that when we know that we’re not really allowed to like assist somebody who’s dying to die? (4m 44s): Like, that’s not our place. This is just one example and what is our role in that moment when, you know, as a, as a modern day person, you know, that the person is suffering. So like they would grapple a lot with these really difficult questions. So I knew that there was gonna be a way, some way somehow for me to work this out. So I grew up just really being deeply steeped in my faith. I was very religious And I was more religious than my parents. As I grew and stuff, my orthodoxy even stronger and stronger And I really, really loved it. Like it was everything to me. It gave me my sense of myself, it gave me a sense of purpose in life. And, and then I was realizing that, that I’m attracted to the, the girls in the class, not so much to the boys and what’s gonna happen to me. (5m 30s): And I gave myself a certain number of years to grow out of it and to pray really hard and hopefully I, I would get over it. And that didn’t really happen. So I did other things. Like I saw some therapists and some rabbis who kind of gave me like some magic potion or like some prayers to say or things to do in my life to bring out the side of me that would be interested in being with a man. And none of those things worked for the long run. And then I sort of happened into a group of women who were also Orthodox and L-G-B-T-Q. (6m 11s): And it was then that I realized like, really truly I am not alone. And that if some people are making this work, I can make it work too. And I have to make it work because God loves me, God created me this way, obviously I’m not changing. So like, what am I supposed to do? Be a miserable human being. And in Judaism you’re not allowed to be a miserable human being that’s like an an Antifa thing. Like you just, you know, worship God enjoy. It’s like we have a commandment to be happy. And so that was what I believed And I believed that it was gonna work itself out somehow. (6m 52s): And the only real way that it did work itself out for me was in community. Like finding other people who are like me and you know, learning to celebrate together with this new community. And so going into the work that I do at ahl, I brought all of that with me and that the first thing that we actually did was have a retreat. So we didn’t actually know how many people would come and we basically, the first year we did it was we sold out the retreat center. We had about 115 or 20 people and we were like, this is the best thing ever and this is going to have to continue. And so we just, we’ve hit the 15th year, we’re we’re keeping on, keeping on, and after three years we added another retreat for parents of LGBT LGBTQ people, Orthodox parents. (7m 43s): And for them as well, it is a parallel process between their children and themselves. Just like their kid couldn’t tell them the parents or anyone else in the Orthodox community, the parents feel that they can’t tell anybody in their community. So when they come to this retreat, it’s like the very first time that they can actually speak their truth about their child. And they don’t have to fear when somebody says, how is, how is your kid doing? You know, are they married yet? Like no one is gonna ask that question. So it’s a very special environment. And yeah, so that’s a long way of saying like, where I came from and how I got here and why we do what we do at a Shell or how, you know, one of the things that we do, which is community building. (8m 28s): I love that. I love that. I recognize myself in that sort of like, I don’t know how it’s gonna work out, but it’s gonna work out. And I think, I don’t know where we got the hutzpah from, but like not everyone has that reaction I’m finding. And so I I’m glad that, I’m glad that you had that, that it’s true sense. Yeah, it’s true. Not everybody has that. And So I, I imagine that part of what led you to form a Shell was this sort of experience of community, but there’s a big leap from just sort of like seeing the power of community and wanting to be part of it to founding a whole organization. Like what was it that led you to make something formal around LGBT LGBTQ Jews or like Orthodox Jews? Good question. It was a long journey, I guess, into, you know, the moment when a group of us were able to like formulate this nonprofit and, but it was preceded by like over a decade of forming communities, mostly in New York City at the time. (9m 26s): I, my story started in Jerusalem with a group called The Orthodox of Jerusalem, and I love that. Yeah. And, and then I brought that group to New York, like I came to New York And I started doing that, doing, having that group there. And we met at the center on 13th Street, the LGBT LGBTQ center. And I didn’t, again, I didn’t think anyone would show up. And every single month new women came, people came back and it became a very big robust group. And alongside that, there were other groups forming one that became predominantly inhabited by men. And yeah, there were just like, you know, these informal underground groups. (10m 10s): And by underground, I mean we were not funded by the Jewish community by any means. We were not funded by the LGBT LGBTQ community and we were all volunteer led, you know, and just kind of, we were doing our own thing and feeling like this is like beginning to feel like a movement, like this is like beginning to feel substantial. And you know, at the same time, other organizations had started, obviously in New York and way before that also of, you know, for LGBT LGBTQ Jews or just LGBT LGBTQ people. But we didn’t really think that anyone would take us seriously because, you know, like why be Orthodox? That was always the question, well, why are you, why don’t you just leave? (10m 52s): What are you like, why, what are you beating your heads against the wall? And anybody who asked us that, like it was clear to me they had not been in the orthodox community, like fully immersed. ’cause you know, people don’t really get the, the what’s so compelling and what’s so compelling is that it’s like, it’s a kind of a thing that holds you in life. So you’re not floating alone in the ether. There’s a very strong sense of community and responsibility to each other. There’s a very deep sense of purpose and meaning, and it’s very, very hard to give that up. And so people would say like, yeah, why, why are you orthodox? So, so that’s why we didn’t really think people were gonna take us that seriously. (11m 33s): And then the Orthodox folks would be like, you can’t be LGBT LGBTQ. That’s just not a thing. They didn’t even use that word. We can’t be homosexual. That’s like not a thing. You know, if you are, it’s because you’re following your yate sharra, which means your evil inclination and you better get over it. You have to like conquer your ever evil inclination. You’re not working hard enough. So like there was no sympathy from anybody, You know, like We had it both, both sides. Like, you can’t be this and you can’t be that. So, and that was sort of when this, this feeling of movement, a movement was forming, you know? And that was when in 2010, a bunch of us got together and helped launch this project, and which later became a Shell Inc. (12m 18s): Which is our organization. And, and it, it like, its time had come and, you know, how did we get funding that was like the whole thing and that just like, it’s really the same, it was the same story, like nobody was gonna fund us. And then along came a, a minister, a woman who had started a, a project called Welcoming Congregations and she also has a family foundation and she heard about us and she reached out or somebody reached her and there was a match made. And that was our first substantial grant that could really like, help us launch our projects and, and start a shells. (13m 1s): So gratitude to the Christian community or for, to her and for the work that she did. And we modeled some of our projects after the work that she was doing also. So that’s how we got started. Very cool. You, well you took one of my follow up questions out of my mouth about sort of when coming out, like why, why state orthodox. But I’m curious also, just like on a more personal note, like what was your experience like coming out as an LGBT person in the orthodox world? And I don’t know if I love using this language, but as an or as an orthodox person in the LGBT community, those sort of like dual coming outs. Yeah. You know, coming out as LGBT LGBTQ in the orthodox world was a, a long haul and it’s was never like ever done. (13m 45s): It still doesn’t ever feel like it’s done because you always have to remind people or tell people, you know, I’m married to a woman, so like I have to like share that information in orthodox spaces, you know, and that’s not a given. Like it’s, you know, there’s an assumption of heterosexuality obviously. So, but it, but it was, for me it was the hardest part was with my family, obviously, you know, feeling accepted by my parents and then by my siblings who are, are very, very orthodox in different ways. And so it was painful. (14m 25s): It was like a very, it was a very big challenge and it was a struggle and it, it took years and it took years to, to heal from the pain of the rejection. And, you know, half my family not coming to my wedding was a huge slap in the face to me as somebody who was always there for them and their kids and their weddings and their happy times. And so thank God I’m in a wonderful place with my family now And I feel very blessed about that. I really, really do. But it was a very long journey. And so now when I hear parents talking about their kids or I hear LGBT LGBTQ people talking about, you know, their families are like, you know, their family members not showing up for them in the ways that they’ve shown up for their family members. (15m 15s): I always wanna say like, please just gimme their number. I wanna like share my, I wanna like make sure that you don’t have years of pain like I did and years of needing to heal. Like there’s an easy way out and that is like, let’s step up, you know, the, the love and the acceptance and the empathy, but that’s my fantasy. It doesn’t really work like that. Everybody has to go through their own understanding and their own journey with this. And so that’s just to say that, you know, the family piece is the hardest piece And I think that’s why we really focus on the family, the families that we work with. ’cause if the parents are okay, the kids are gonna be okay ultimately. (15m 55s): And so we also focus on obviously LGBT, LGBTQ people finding each other. We have a very big network of that for friendship, for companionship, for love, for whatever it is community and yeah. So, and then coming out in the LGBT LGBTQ world as an orthodox person, yeah, people would just look at me funny And maybe less so now, but yeah, it’s, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I can’t say I experienced the antisemitism that people are experiencing now. (16m 35s): It’s incredibly painful. What I’m seeing people go through right now. And you know, we did actually recently did a study of if LGBT LGBTQ Jews are feeling comfortable in queer only spaces like non-Jewish queer spaces and a large percentage of them are leaving those spaces. ’cause there’s just such intense antisemitism coming from, you know, the sentiment about against Israel and they have no place to go. ’cause they can’t go into their Orthodox communities, you know, for solace. They come to us, you know, so we’re, our community’s gotten stronger. (17m 17s): But anyway, I’m hoping that won’t last forever. Yeah. You know, you talk about the importance of that sort of family acceptance and also in your own life, it took your, it took some of your family a while to get there. And I’m wondering like what advice do you have for someone who’s, whatever their religious background might be, but then their parents are having, are not accepting at this moment. Like how do you balance, like not feeling like you’re banging your head against a wall and how do you like find the sort of joy in the moment while also also being able to sort of go on the, the journey with, with the parents and not have to feel like you have to cut them out entirely. Like how they, how do you, how do you, like, how do you like thread that needle? (17m 59s): Okay, so like for the parents, they love being together. It’s really beautiful. Like the parents have formed their own family almost. And, and they help each other a lot. There’s a lot of peer support out of this community. They came up with a saying that I use all the time that life is long and life is short or life is short and life is long. Really, like we all know what life is. Short means, like things feel like they’re going really quickly and all of a sudden you turn around and you’re 10 years older and like that. But, but life is long in that if you give people time and if you let them take their time, things will change. (18m 40s): So that, I repeat that like a mantra to every single parent I talk to when they’re, when they’re in distress, I’m like, you know, life is long. You’re gonna see the, the story isn’t over about your child. I do say the same thing to the LGBT LGBTQ people, but it’s harder, I think it’s harder for them to hear. ’cause you know, they’ve been living with this way longer than their parents have known about them. So they’re more impatient. Like they finally come out and they’re like, okay, I’m out. I’ve accepted myself. Yay. Where’s my party? And the parents are like completely devastated. So I say to them like, you’ve known for 15 years but your parents are just finding out now and you know what it’s like in the Orthodox community, so you need to be patient. (19m 28s): Yeah. So patience all around. Yeah. Can you say more about your work and like how much of it is focused on trying to get orthodox schuls or orthodox organizations to be, to change versus sort of supporting LGBT folks in figuring out what it means to live an Orthodox life or a Jewish life outside of, or alongside of those institutions or amongst their own sort of like found family created communities? Yes. All of it. All of it at once. Yeah. When we started we didn’t know like where to prioritize, where to begin. (20m 12s): And we started at coming at it in both ends, like giving community and in support to LGBT LGBTQ people and starting to chip away at the orthodox community’s understanding of what this is. And so we’ve never abandoned either end of that. Like our mission is to create an LGBT LGBTQ inclusive orthodoxy where people feel like they just belong, like they belonged yesterday before they came out. You know, that is like a seamless transition between before the day before when you were not out and the day you came out. And so that is a really, that’s a lot of work. (20m 52s): So we have this program called the Welcoming Shools project and it’s like a series of interviews with people with rabbis who lead congregations and just kind of talking with them. It’s a very non-judgmental conversation just to hear how they will have an LGBT LGBTQ person belong in their synagogue. And there’s a wide range of questions like rituals like that you’ll let them do or events like, you know, milestones you’ll let them celebrate and just generally feeling inclusive of them. And we’ve interviewed 300 of these synagogues so far. (21m 34s): We’re still doing, we do about 25 a year and it’s a beginning of a conversation and we also are able to assess like, is this a place we would send somebody? And everybody has a different, you know, ability to tolerate other people’s intolerance. Yeah. Some people will be fine going to one synagogue and some people will be fine, not be fine. So we have to sort of like make a match. So we work a lot on, on making orthodoxy in, you know, a friendly place. That’s really what we do. That’s our goal. But we can’t do that. We can’t just expect people LGBT, LGBTQ people to sit around and wait for that. (22m 18s): Right? Right. So we create, like, the way I see our Retreats is like, or our gatherings is like a, it’s like a, a utopian space. It’s like, this is how we want it to be and we give people a sense of how it will be and how it can be, and it, it, it also takes patience. But now in a few places we’re seeing that some of our members have gone and created LGBT LGBTQ like groups inside orthodox synagogues. Mm, wow. Right. Yeah. That was 10 years ago. No. And so that’s really wonderful and that kind of is a beautiful combination of the two things that we’ve been working on. (23m 4s): You know, strengthening people from within so that they have the belief that they don’t have to leave the community and the ability to advocate for themselves and then the orthodox community. Like recognizing you’re the same person that I knew yesterday and there’s no reason why you should have to go anywhere else. Yeah. Wow. What other sort of major important changes have happened that you’ve seen since you founded Elle? So I guess what we’ve seen is like, first of all, the statistics around people coming out in general in America show that people are coming out younger and younger, and this is true in the Orthodox community as well. (23m 52s): And that, and because like 10 or 15 years ago or 20 years ago, people were coming out like the average age was like 21. So like a kid would go to college or they would leave home and then they would come out. So the community didn’t really need to figure out what to do about it. But now teenagers are coming out in Orthodox Day schools. So some orthodox communities are really getting a real, like their own taste of what this means to really have that person still belong. And some of them are making choices to like, for, I’m not judging it honestly, sometimes it’s just a practical thing. They can’t make it work or you know, they’ll have a mass exodus, the parents will pull their kids out of the school and then the school will, you know, be damaged in a not good way. (24m 39s): And so like, you know, no judgment, but, but there are places that are able to hold the student and keep them. And so that’s different that there are queer orthodox kids staying inside of day schools. And that’s a good thing. We have built this incredible parent network and so there’s that for people, you know, that parents are not alone so they can figure out how to help their child. Yeah. And that we’ve given a space for queer Orthodox Jews to feel whole, like there is now this place. And so these things are all new things, I think. (25m 21s): And, and because of that, I think that a lot of the Orthodox communities are recognizing that this isn’t a choice, it is the nature of the human condition. As one of my favorite professors in my master’s program at Yeshiva University used to say Norman Linzer, he used to say, this is the nature of the human condition. And that’s a phrase that I say all the time like this buddy, like, this is not changing, this is the way God made us. So you have to figure out how to deal with us in a loving and accepting way. (26m 2s): Yeah. And I guess what what also is beginning to change is the ritual side. Like orthodox queer people want what straight Orthodox people want because that’s how they were raised. So they were like raised to expect certain things for themselves. You know, it’s, it’s very heteronormative, but like, I’ll say it anyway, like, you know, being married, getting married, having children, not for everybody obviously, but this is like the cultural norms of this community. So they expect that. And if they can’t have it, they’re like gonna make it, they’re gonna create it. So there’s a ton of new rituals coming out and they’re starting to be more clergy in the orthodox sphere that will help facilitate these rituals, which is really new. (26m 52s): And these are all great things. Yeah. Can you, can you say more about these, like the ritual aspect of it and, and also like, as a relatedly, I suppose that the Orthodox world obviously is, has a long way to go when it comes to LGBT stuff, but also there’s also different roles and rituals for men versus women in the orthodox world and a lot of, many of the rituals are, are, are gendered as well. And so like, like what is that, like, what are some new innovative ways folks are expanding orthodox ritual? Yeah, great question. It’s, it’s really new. So like the ways that I’ve seen the rituals so far are around marriage and you know, the language of those rituals is male and female. (27m 42s): And so people will create rituals that don’t feel like they are violating Orthodox Jewish law because orthodox queer Jews don’t want to violate Orthodox Jewish law. So they’ll do some alternatives like, but that feel like the same kind of a wedding, for example. So like when I came out And I invited my Orthodox relatives to my wedding, they were most appalled that it was gonna be a Jewish wedding. And I was like, what did you think I was gonna do like a Buddhist wedding? (28m 23s): Like what, what were you thinking would be good for me or comfortable for me? So, you know, my partner And I, it was, it felt like a very traditional wedding, But we took out some things that we knew that were not gonna jive with my understanding of orthodox law, but it felt orthodox. It felt like it, it like, it was a very traditional wedding. So that’s just to say that there’s a lot of like keeping true to what feel like what is the tradition without, with also keeping true to Jewish law. Okay. So that’s one thing in terms of other rituals, like there’s a ritual for a woman to af if she’s married and she is stopped menstruating, that she goes to a mikva, like a ritual bath. (29m 14s): And so, you know, we get this question a lot or you know, I’ve heard it many times like, what do two women do in that case? And do those same laws apply because, you know, men and a woman don’t, like they sleep in separate beds during her time of menstruation. So like, what do two women do? And so there are people that teach this, like how do you manage that? But not everybody thinks like, not every orthodox queer person thinks that that’s relevant because it’s only relevant to a man and a woman. So like, I guess what I’m Mm, Kind of boiling it down here to, like, some people will take the paradigm and plunk it right onto their lives and some people will say, no, you know what, I’m actually under the radar of this Jewish law because I’m not with the member sex. (29m 60s): Right. Yeah. And then I feel like maybe Brian, you were alluding to like bi the binary, were you, I mean, not necessarily though week, we can certainly go there. I was sort of like just thinking about the ways in which like gender, like, like rabbis and like who, like who lays to fill in and sort of obligations around like other sorts of like ritualistic obligations Yeah. That are like, that are, that are not necessarily queer issues, but that are like, have a gendered component as well that maybe like some trans folks are like, like how do I, how do I, how do I navigate haha around what are my obligations as a man or a woman or as a person with like this body part or that body part? (30m 50s): And are they just sort of like putting themselves into existing rituals? Are they creating like new rituals or Yeah, I I’m feeling like mostly in the orthodox sphere that we’re not necessarily creating new rituals. We’re trying to figure yeah. How to take on the rituals that we’re supposed to take on, but as you know, the person I am today, like how does this map onto this new reality of who I know I am and who I wanna be seen as. Yeah. So yeah, I think there’s more of that than creating our own rituals that are like radically different. Yeah. Yeah. And so can you say more about just like for yourself, like what does it mean to be like queer and religious? (31m 34s): Like what does that like look like for you on a, on a, on a sort of like a soul level, I suppose That I am, I’m accepting that I’m different than most people and that God is okay with that and it’s gotta love me anyway. Like I said earlier, you know, and I can’t radically change myself. Like I can’t perform, you know, heart or brain surgery on a metaphorical level. Like I just can’t and change the way that God made me. So, and, and my obligation is to rejoice and to like be a happy person as much as I can be and have faith, you know, even in the, in light of all of the horrible things that are going on in this world. (32m 24s): Like, yeah, I wake up every morning shaking my head like, really is this really going on? And so like, but to have faith is, is an important thing. And, and so yeah, just, you know, trying to figure out how to keep my faith and understand that I’m, I feel things differently than maybe my siblings or you know, people, some of the people around me. And that it’s also, it’s okay and it’s, it’s, this is the way God made me. So it’s like here I am, you know? That’s what it’s like for me. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m struck by the tension of wanting to sort of like stay within the bounds of Jewish law and also like wanting to have like the ritual that feels orthodox and wanting to change congregations, but also like, not change orthodoxy. (33m 28s): And maybe this is a, maybe we cut this question and it’s an off record, like, but like Holocaust, does it change slowly? Right? And so like, like in what, like when you imagine a, a queer Jewish future 500 years from now, like are the wedding ceremonies between two queer Jews still sort of like, oh, well we’re able to sort of like, fly under the radar and make this work in our own way? Or like, is there a world where queerness could be totally integrated into Haha Yeah, I mean, for sure this is, okay, this is what I learned as a younger person, right? (34m 9s): Like living my modern orthodox community that we’re not changing halakha, but halakha needs to address our lives as we see Like, that’s just halakha. It’s halakha means the way, so like, given you know who I am, what is the way I need to live, and just as ha you know, Halakha has addressed questions of, of the modern day, like in SI science or, you know, with disability or you know, just things that, you know, in the time of codifying Jewish law they didn’t know about. So like now what that we know, what is your answer today? (34m 50s): And so there are rabbis out there who are creating what’s called response literature. Like when you ask that question of do two women have to keep the laws of Nita, which is that the family purity laws around menstruation, which is what it’s called. And there are people addressing those questions. So like for us to be able to like live in halak way in the way of Jewish law. So, so I guess 500 years from now, it’s like, it’s like a non-issue and that we figured it out and just like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago when the rabbis, you know, talked about nine different genders, like recognizing genders, like it wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t a big deal, it was just like, this is the way it is and for whatever reason, you know, there’s tremendous, you know, fear and Yeah. (35m 52s): Understanding and you know, otherness about it and it shouldn’t be that way and it wasn’t that way. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it, it sometimes in some areas feels like there’s a little bit of like going, I don’t know, like going backwards or fear of the unknown. Like, you know, you know, you have stories about, you know, a long time ago people being like, oh, this person was named one thing and then they left and then they came back and like, now they’re a man. And so like, clearly they’re gonna be a man and like if they, they can figure that out in like, I dunno, when it was like 1920s or 1880s Poland like surely we can figure it out in 2025 America. Right, right, right. The, the mystery of God’s world. That’s how I think. Yeah. Think about it. (36m 33s): And so what, like what are do what are some of the challenges that you see for why orthodox rabbis aren’t more inclusive? So I don’t wanna speak for them, but I guess there’s tremendous fear, I think of the unknown. And there’s also concerns about not being accepted amongst their peers. And if we let the gay people come to our synagogue, like, what will be next? You know, what, how will this structure fall apart or how will it affect us in a negative way? (37m 15s): Like, what bad things will happen after that? You know, things that are also unknown to us. And so I think that’s a lot of it is, I hate to say peer pressure, you know? Yeah. And a fear of what they don’t know. And I under I understand that. I mean, I get it, you know, when you don’t know something, it’s scary. Yeah. And so a lot of what we do is try to put a human face on, you know, queer people and just be like, let’s get us together in a room and talk to each other, talk to other, you know, and communication is the key. Listening is the key to getting into someone’s heart and that’s, that’s what we need to do. (38m 2s): ’cause that’s what’s keeping us out. Yeah. I mean I, I think that’s why the work of your organization is so important because it’s, it’s, it’s like bringing all these people together And I don’t, it just feels like, like eventually there’ll be like a watershed moment. Like there’s a, there’ll be peer peer pressure from the opposite direction. Right? Right. Like it’s, it’s scary to be the only one saying it, but when you’re sort of one among many voices, like the connecting that you do both of LGBT Jews to one another, but parents and rabbis and the work, like, it helps to sort of make it a little bit easier to be brave. And so I yeah, I’m so glad that you’re doing this work. I know that Retreats and gatherings are like a big part of your work. (38m 42s): Like can you gimme a, can you give us a sample of like, what does it look like to go on a retreat as, as like an for one, maybe like for both sides, like an LGBT focused retreat or a parent focused retreat. Like what’s a day in the life of a retreat? Yeah, it’s a good question. ’cause we think a lot about that when we create them. And what we want is for the queer person to walk into this retreat. And it’s always on Shabbat. So it’s always like a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday so that they can experience exactly what they had when they grew up with one difference. And that one difference is that they’re fully accepted and it feels very magical. Like I was saying before, like a little slice of utopia, you know, Ghana, Eden, the Garden of Eden, like it’s utopian to like have that change like that, you know, Shabbat looks and feels and sounds exactly like it did in the spaces that you were a part of that didn’t accept you, but you can be exactly who you are and be surrounded by people who have the same kind of experience. (39m 52s): So it doesn’t look much different than your maybe average orthodox retreat over a weekend. But we do have a lot of sessions and we have a lot of speakers and people sharing their stories a lot. We have a lot of storytelling, a lot of, you know, people just sharing their backgrounds and where they came from to give and where they are now. And so like people have an inspiration for like how they can live their lives and, you know, and with the parents, same, like, it looks just like an Orthodox retreat and that’s what it is. It’s on Shabbat. We, you know, keep strict laws of keeping kosher and keeping Shabbat and, and all the joyousness of those that day. (40m 38s): Like we have it all. And yet the parents know that they can completely let their guard down with each other. And we do a lot of learning together and a lot of psychoeducation and education, you know, things that they need to know to parent their kid. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you have any coming up? Oh yeah, we have. Thanks for asking Brian. We have two, two of our Retreats. The LGBT LGBTQ retreat will be on March 13th to 15th, and the parent retreat will be April 30th to May 3rd, God willing of 2026. (41m 20s): And they’re usually on the east coast. So this one will be in Maryland and people can find out about it on our website. And registration isn’t open yet, but it will be, you know, in, in a few weeks or months. Awesome. And we’ll put links to all of that in the show notes of this podcast episode. And this, this next question might also be one that that has to the god in room for, because the answer might be no, but, but earlier you talked about, you know, when people find out that you’re, when queer people sometimes find out that you’re orthodox, they’re like, well, why are you still orthodox? Or like, what’s the point of being orthodox? And certainly I know lots of non-Orthodox Jews that are like, I just like don’t get that whole world. (42m 1s): But I also know what seems like a growing number of Jews who were either grew up secular or reform and are sort of interested in moving like towards like conservative or more orthodox practice, but feel like, well I don’t want to, like I’m trans. I like don’t know if I, I’m like, I’m not gonna go to a habad house. Like, and so like I I’m wondering if any part of these are sort of like the work that you do attracts like orthodox curious, queer, queer Jews. It absolutely does. And it’s always, we always like scratch our heads a little bit. Like we get a lot of calls from people who wanna convert to orthodoxy. (42m 44s): Hmm. A lot of trans people also. And you know, I have certain theories around maybe like some trans people have said to me, ’cause like in an orthodox synagogue you have a, you have a divider, so men aren’t, or one side of women on the other. And as you know, growing up in that and you’re sitting in the women’s section, but you feel like you belong in the men’s section when you finally can go into the men’s section, it is like incredibly validating around, you know, your gender. So, but anyway, so for people who are wanting to convert or who are ortho curious also like, you know, it’s not like I don’t get it because it’s the same answer that I give. (43m 26s): Why are you still orthodox? Right? Yeah, I get it. It’s a very compelling life and, but it comes with so many restrictions and so many things you cannot do, but it also comes with great meaning and things you can do and you’re, you’re supposed to do. So yeah, people are drawn to it. non-Orthodox people are very drawn some times to orthodox spaces and there’s a warmth. There’s also, like I was saying before, a sense of meaning and ritual and an obligation. And so I think that in a world where, you know, like anything goes, sometimes people need to be told no, everything doesn’t go like, yeah, you can’t do this now, you can do this later. (44m 7s): Like, I think people like boundaries and that is what Jewish law gives you. It gives you a structure. And I know I craved that when I was growing up, so that’s what I got out of it. Yeah. So people want meaning, you know, people want warmth, people want community, and these are all the things that we get in this community. I love that you said obligation in that sort of mix of things. I think about that a lot as a community organizer and as a relationship coach. And like there certainly is something about boundaries and there’s something about like, we’re all responsible for our own feelings and all of that. Like, and also there, for me it feels like something about, there is also something about like choosing to be bound up together and choosing to be obligated to one another. (44m 57s): Or like maybe sometimes like being told that you’re obligated to one another. And so like, can you share more about like whether like in an orthodox framework or just like in your own sort of like personal Miriam framework of sort of like the power of obligation and how that could look like in a healthy context? Sure. So I have this reflex that not everybody in my family appreciates That Whenever I hear that somebody does not have a place to spend Shabbat or like they need a place to stay over, like I’m like, stay with us, you know, and I’m moving other People some, yeah, the same reflex. They don’t have the same reflex all, I mean, they’re very hospitable, but I’m just like, you have to stay with us. (45m 40s): Like, that is, and that’s actually, that’s the whole metaphor of the a Shell tree. So I guess it works for me that Abraham and Sarah planted this sheltering tree in the desert. So when they saw people wandering and needing a place to stop and, and be fed and being taken care of, and then they would do that and then send them on their way. So that’s the a Shell tree metaphor. And, and you know, so like I have this feeling of like, if somebody needs a place, you just give it to them. There’s like no question. So it’s not even a choice for me. You know, if somebody’s sick, it is not a choice. You actually must try to visit them or bring them some food. (46m 23s): If somebody needs money to live it, it is not a choice to give charity. It is an obligation for us to give at least 10% of our income to charity. And so like, there’s not a lot of questions like, tell me what to do and I’ll do it. You know? And so yeah, I think that’s, you know, we’re obligated to take care of each other and so yeah. So those are some of the ways it shows up in my life. Awesome. If folks are like interested in learning more about Elle getting involved in the programming, wanna tune into your, like make use of your warm line. (47m 4s): Like what are the ways that folks can connect with you? Sure. So great. So just, you can email us, I will tell you info@selonline.org, E-S-H-E-L-O-N-L-I-N-I-N e.org info at. And you’ll find somebody who, an actual person on the other line, on the other side of that who will respond to you. And if you, if you’re in, if you’re feeling like you’re in distress or you want support or you wanna find out more about our programs, you can call our warm line, which the number is 7 2 4 SL zero one or 7 2 4 3 7 4 3 5 0 1. (47m 52s): You can leave a voicemail or a text. Yeah. So there’s a lot of ways just go to our website and you’ll see all the ways to reach out to us. We have a whole calendar of events. We have about 15 to 20 support groups we run each month online, so they’re very accessible. And then we have a lot of regional events in different cities, and we have a full program in New York City, so that’s good if people are in that area. Also, we have Shabbat dinners and we do once a month on a Monday night, we have a in-person event in New York and we have chapters all over. (48m 33s): So there’s also ways for people outside of New York City to get involved and to be with people. Fantastic. Well thank you for this lovely conversation. And I, we like to close by asking guests, like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? I love that. Oh boy. You know, I have to say, I’m discovering, and this isn’t, I grew up in the city, a New York City girl. Like this was never anything I would’ve said. Like, I like being in nature, just, it does bring me joy. And I, I learned that from being in nature and, and being in the moment, like there’s nothing, like just being fully present and just appreciating what is right now, this very moment. (49m 15s): And, And I also, my, my dog brings me great joy. He’s incredible. He is a love bug And I just love being with him. And so I think like, you know, I think animals and, you know, there’s like great, that’s also part of nature, you know, just like these beings that actually we have no clue what they’re thinking or what they’re, you know, they’re what they’re all about. It’s like a mystery. So like, I just love, you know, I love watching birds and animals and being with my animal and yeah. So those are two things I think. And what else? My children, when they’re willing to talk to me when they’re teenagers, but they, they bring me incredible joy. (49m 59s): So yeah. Thank you for that question. I love thinking about that. You’re welcome. Well, thank you again, Maria, for being here with us today. Absolutely. Brian, it was so great to meet you. Maybe I’ll see you at an initial retreat. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, sign me up and you stop by at night in New York or something. I’m, I’m gonna be joining the email newsletter and staying in the loop on all things. Sounds really cool. Oh good. Alright. Thank you. Keep up the good work, The podcast. Thank you. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBT, LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. (50m 42s): We’ll see you next week. The post Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.

In this week’s throwback episode, we return to the final episode of our eight-part series on Matthew. And here is where we come to crucifixion and resurrection.. The End… but really, the Beginning! It’s important for us to call out and recognize in these texts the significant polemic against the Jewish leaders, even if most of Matthew’s audience still considered themselves to be Jewish. The context is crucial here for us to not continue the anti-semitic rhetoric that “the Jews killed Jesus”, but underline that the Roman Empire killed Jesus. We have stories of the anointing of Jesus, the last supper, his betrayal, the trial, and subsequent punishment of death. From the story of the resurrection, we really look at who Jesus entrusted the continued work of discipleship. It is not to perfect angels that this work is given to continue, but to the doubting, flawed, messy, complicated people. How can we embrace that same call to follow Jesus today?   Resources: Journey Into the Bible part of Spiritual Study Hall  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (1m 56s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis to Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. And welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Can you believe that we are at the final, the final section of our deep dive into the gospel of Matthew? I can hardly believe it, to be honest. (2m 37s): This has been a ride. Yeah. You know, before we dive into these final things, I just wanna say, you know, Brian, you And I have talked about how over the years of doing the lectionary that revisiting these texts, even texts that we were super, super familiar with, that we learned and discovered new things about the stories about ourselves because that we were different from the time that we had revisited them. And I, And I have to say that doing this deep dive and reading this kind of in order all along, like I’ve learned so many new things, even though I already, I felt like I already knew a lot. And I’m wondering what this experience has been like for you. (3m 17s): It you feeling that too? Like what’s, what’s kind of standing out for you? Yeah, I also feel like I am learning new things. Finding new things. You know, I think that a few weeks ago I said something like, it just scripture’s kind of like a, like a, a fruit where you, or an orange where you can, like, there’s always sort of like more that you can, you can squeeze out of it. And so returning to some of these texts, some, some of that we’ve covered on the podcast, some that we, that I just sort of know outside of the podcast in my own personal life, I definitely am finding new, like completely new information about them as I’m, you know, reading commentaries on it and reading my, like looking at the notes in the study bible and, and learning from you. (3m 58s): I’m like, oh, I, like, there’s a, there’s some some facts that I didn’t know that enriched my understanding of the text. And then there’s an element of just sort of like experiencing the text in a different way and relating to it in a different way. And, and maybe like, I knew everything, quote, you knew everything, but different things are sticking out to me or I’m making new and different connections from the text to my own life. And I think there’s also been an additional element of, by reading the whole, the whole book of Matthew from start to finish, but also not rushing through it. Like we didn’t read the whole book of Matthew over the course of, you know, three days a week. (4m 40s): Even we read it over the course of two months. I think that like, sitting in that, I feel like I was able to sort of like dip into and immerse myself more fully in that world because I was really like spending a lot of time rolling around in there rather than getting in or getting out. It reminds me of, you know, like if you’re doing a meditation practice, sometimes it takes like a few minutes to like to settle in, right? It’s like if you only meditate for two minutes, like that can be helpful in its own way, way, but it’s not the same as like doing a 10 or a 20 or a 30 minute meditation or, you know, you know, there’s all that sort of research around focus that like, every time you switch between tasks or apps, it takes your brain a little bit of time to like reorient yourself. (5m 28s): And so like, you know, as a, as a, you’re a writer Shay, you know, like you can’t write a novel in spurts of, oh, you, maybe you could, but like writing a novel in spurts of five minutes is gonna be different than like really being able to sort of like sink in and absorb. Or if you’re a reader, even like when you’re like on your, when you’re like on the, the couch with a book for like hours on a, you know, on a rainy day that feels different than reading for, you know, five, 10 minutes on the subway to and from work. They’re like, they’re both interesting. But I like, I I, so I noticed that sort of like, sense of immersion in the text, which I really appreciated. Yeah. And I, I think what you said is so interesting, right? (6m 8s): Because we, I’ve been talking with some folks who are, who are wanting to, to start spiritual rituals and, and they’re feeling this weight of, I don’t know where to start. I don’t have the perfect amount of time. And so I think that there’s like a yes and to your five minutes a day, right? Like it’s so like, you’re right, you, you could totally write a novel in five minutes a day and also at some point you’re probably gonna have to sink deeply into it for hours at a time in order to revise, to fix the story, et cetera. And also, if you don’t spend the five minutes a day or whatever it is that will take you to get started, you’re never gonna have the novel to revise. And I think that that’s the same with spiritual practices, right? (6m 49s): Yeah. If You wait until you have the perfect hour of total silence when no one else is in the house, and you have the fancy candle and the right matches and the whatever it is that you tell yourself you really need in order to pray or to meditate, like you’re just never gonna do it. And so that, that tension of you gotta just dive in and also at some point in the diving in, what does it take for you to have a more settled and in-depth practice? Yeah. You know, I really enjoy those, you know, days where I am cuddled up on the couch reading a book for hours. But pretty much every book that I’ve ever spent done that with, I first like impulse bought the book and then like immediately opened it and read just for five minutes, right? (7m 34s): And then, and then I had to like move on with my life. And it’s like oftentimes I like do a few, like many blocks of reading in shorter spurts before, like, I, I, the, the, the story starts to like draw me in and then, And I get, I’m in the prac, I get into the habit of reading, you know, I start to like connect with the characters more. I get excited about the story and then I can sort of like settle in deeper. And so like, if you have a, if you don’t read the Bible at all currently or you haven’t read the Bible in years, the Bible feels scary. You don’t, like, you don’t have to, you know, spend hours every day reading the Bible. Like, don’t do that. But like, if you have a question about like, oh, I wonder what that story that I always like really, you know, enjoyed or appreciated or thought was weird or didn’t like, like I went to what was going on there. (8m 22s): Like, you can start right now looking for answers to those questions. And then he always say, should I continue to, to follow your curiosity? This was like a good time to plug, like, as this, as this series is wrapping up, if you want to like learn how to do this sort of work, we have like a whole self-paced course called journeying to the Bible that like walks you through the process that we did with Matthew so that you can do it on your own for any book or any passage or any story in the Bible, you can find that and others at Queer Theology dot com slash resources. Alright, let’s do it. We, let’s do our, are looking at chapters 26 through 28. (9m 4s): These are the last four chapters, three chapters Math Never been My Strong Suit of the Gospel of Matthew. We are still in holy week. We’re actually just at Wednesday. So we, we the entire like long, long podcast that we did last week was Monday and Tuesday chapter 26 starts Wednesday. Here’s some things you should know as we dive in. The gospel of Matthew super, super closely follows Mark’s story. Matthew adds a couple of things. He adds the story of the fate of Judas, which we’ll get to in a little bit. (9m 45s): And the guard at the tomb, which we’ll talk more about otherwise, pretty much this is the same as Mark in the Beginning of Matthew 26. Jesus pretty much concludes his teaching ministry, even though he does continue to speak. There are no more like speeches or discourses like we are now just heading towards The End, which I found really fascinating. I don’t know that I had ever like picked that up before until seeing that really spelled out in the commentary. And I thought, oh, that’s a really interesting, a really interesting note. Yeah. Another thing to notice is that Matthew is the first narrative to specify Passover as the time when, when Jesus’s passion occurs. (10m 32s): And this is important only because during this time the Roman governor regularly came to Jerusalem with extra troops in case there was an attempted uprising. And so this strikes me as a really strategic emphasis on Matthew’s part to really contrast the idea of two kingdoms once again, right? Rome comes to quash the oppressed, Jesus comes to free them. And so setting all of this in a historical context of an actual celebration that happened when we know things that happened politically around that celebration feels really important to name and to note. Yeah. You might not know the answer to this, so it’s okay if you don’t, but do you know, like was there, was there connections to Jesus being executed around Passover in like the letter in, in earlier letters? (11m 25s): Or is this like the first ever written down connection between like, crucifixion, resurrection and Passover? I don’t know. My sense would be that this is the first Okay. But I would have to check the letters and, and the only reason I say that, my sense is that it’d be the first is because Paul’s letters tend to not really tell any narrative stories, right? Yeah. That they’re all about like, this is what Jesus taught, not anything about this is what happened. Yeah. I guess I was like wondering like, is is he talking about Jesus as like the Passover lamb or like the new sacrifice or like when he was, you know, but it, it’s, it’s, it sounds like answers. (12m 5s): I don’t know, which I think is a great thing to model that like sometimes we have to take notes of like, and then, and then I like, like I, there’s, I was curious about that, but like you listening at home, like might not be curious about that. So like, if you’re curious about that, like, don’t go Google it, but I’m, but after we’ve finished recording this, like I I might go Google it. I think that is one of the things that I really appreciate about, like exploring the world of the Bible is like we all get to sort of like pull out the threads that interest us. So yeah. Thanks for humor me. Yeah. Yeah. I also wanna say upfront that this narrative is really, really tricky to talk about because Matthew’s polemic against Jewish religious leaders is overt and it’s loud, it’s not as loud as in loud the Gospel of John, but it’s still loud. (12m 51s): Yeah. And that has su subsequently been used in really, really horrific ways and still continues to be. And so I just wanna note that, that as we’re talking about this, it’s complicated ground to talk about and also say that it’s really clear that by the time of this writing, that even though Matthew’s audience might have been mostly composed of people who still consider themselves Jewish, there’s definitely strong tension. There’s hostility between the church and the synagogue. Matthew uses the language of synagogue in a, throughout his gospel in a really like to mean nefarious things. (13m 36s): And the author of Matthew is really trying to make it appear that Jewish religious leaders are responsible for Jesus’ death. And so like it just feels important to name that upfront that, and that it doesn’t do us any good to try to explain that away or say that’s not really what the text meant, or that’s not really what the text did. Like that’s, that’s what he’s trying to do. And so I think we just have to own that and, and then talk about, like, we can talk, we can talk lots of things around like why he might have done that and how we can handle it responsibly. But I think that we first have to just like name that that is what hap what is happening. (14m 18s): Yeah. Oh man. That feels like to make a modern connection of like, we can’t, like, as a white person, I like can’t effectively confront racism if I’m like unable to recognize like the times in which I like do or say like racist shit or like have in my past done or said racist shit, right? That like, it, like it sort of, we have to sort of like look at it with sort of like an unflinching honesty and then decide like, okay, like where do we go from here? Yeah. So those kind of opening statements, we head into this text this Wednesday text with a, a story of the anointing of Jesus and this woman who remains anonymous pours super expensive perfume on Jesus’s head. (15m 4s): And I found that this was really interesting. I don’t know that I had like really, I, I think this is another moment where the way that we’re often taught about these stories right? Is that we collapse all of the gospels together. And so like any kind of anointing story just becomes like this wash for me of like, there was a woman who cried and anointed and, and like cried on Jesus’s feet and wiped him with her hair. And then there was this other story of Jesus being anointed by a woman. And like in our minds they just kind of become the same narrative. And so like, it’s important to note that this is not that narrative, that this is not Mary Magdalene, this is a, this is an anonymous woman, we don’t know who this woman was, and she pours expensive perfume on Jesus’s head. (15m 50s): And this is not an anointing for office. So like, this isn’t, this isn’t anything about Jesus’s priesthood or king hood. This is a pre preparation for burial. And the other thing that I had never noticed before is that in Matthew’s gospel, we’re gonna jump ahead, the women don’t come to the tomb to anoint Jesus as they do in some of the other gospels. They come to sit vigil, which we’ll talk about. But it’s already been done. The Jesus’s anointing has already been done by this anonymous woman prior to his death. And so it doesn’t get repeated, which I found to be just the most fascinating. (16m 30s): This is a moment for me where like that piqued my curiosity. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is a really beautiful and fascinating narrative. Yeah. And so in this story then we have a comment where, you know, people are, are pissed that this woman has spent, has poured this expensive perfume on Jesus’ head. And Jesus says, the poor you will always have with you, which has now become this like often debated quote. And people say like, that means that we don’t have to do anything to alleviate poverty. Like we can just ignore it because we’re not gonna be able to do anything about it anyway. And other people say, well, Jesus didn’t really mean that. And again, this is a moment where you like have to know some of the context. (17m 12s): And Jesus is alluding to Deuteronomy 1511, which says, poor persons will never disappear from the earth. That’s why I’m giving you this command. You must open your hand generously to your fellow Israelites, to the needy among you and to the poor who live with you in your land, which is part of an entire chapter about the year of Jubilee. And so I think that’s important to note because like we miss that, but Matthew’s audience totally would’ve known that reference. They would’ve picked it up. And so we have then this story of extravagant love of a woman and how in some ways she’s the only one who really seems to know what’s going on in preparing Jesus for his burial. (17m 56s): But then we also have, even in the midst of this moment where people are being crabby about the perfume, Jesus is pointing them toward justice that this statement about the poor you will always have with you wasn’t a, so we don’t have to care about them. It’s like, yeah. So like, again, your call to discipleship is to do something about the people living in poverty. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that that’s, that start of that sentence can be completed in so many different ways and it like, it’s so important that we like play it out and, and, and catch these references. This reminds me again how, you know, I feel like a broken record on this. Like, it’s like, it’s like reading Shakespeare where you like, if you don’t do some research, you like, don’t catch all the references and sometimes you like might actually walk away with the opposite impression because those references like really change so much about this. (18m 48s): And so I think like, you know, there’s something there about like, we ha like is our job to take care of folks and we’re like, whether or not we ever eradicate poverty or not, like that doesn’t mean we like stop trying. Yeah. And I think, I think that gets back to our conversation before about like this kind of, we focus on the here and now while we also look to the future and, and that it’s like we, we don’t not do anything just because we can’t have everything that we want or everything that we dream of right away. Like we still have to do the work even if it’s incremental and slower than we’d like. Yeah. And I think that there’s like something about this, this pairing right, of this like extravagant gesture and this like expensive perfume and sort of like the poorer will always be with you, but like, and also to keep working towards it that it’s like, I don’t know there, it like in all likelihood, like we’re not going to totally eradicate global poverty in my lifetime. (19m 51s): Right? Like, I can be a realist, right. And say that like, like, that’s probably not gonna happen. I, you know, and also like what does it mean to like act as if it is possible to believe that that is possible and then also to sort of like do some things that usher that in, right? Like this sort of like anointing with exp expensive oil. And I think that there’s a difference, right? Like it’s expensive, but it’s not like, you know, 80% of the city of Los Angeles police, like city, city budget going to police, right? Like it’s a symbol, it’s like a symbolic, but part of it is it’s both expensive but it’s also somewhat symbolic, right? So it’s not like we should just like not care if like we waste money, but that like sometimes like it’s okay to like live extravagantly to believe that more possible. (20m 40s): And So just sort of like live into that tension of like, yes. Yes. And So we move from this like really extravagant story of the woman anointing Jesus for burial into Judas getting paid to portray Jesus. And Matthew quotes the sum of, you know, this 30 pieces of silver, which is from Zacharia 1112 through 13, which says that 30 pieces ofer silver is the shepherd’s wages. And so it’s like this poultry sum and it’s designed to be in contrast to the story of the woman, right? Like Jude, Judas accepts nothing to betray while the anonymous woman gives everything to honor, which I find a really striking image. (21m 29s): Yeah. It reminds me also of, I feel like some of, there’s like, you know, like if you try to save your soul, you’ll lose it. You in order to like save your soul, you know, in order to save your soul you have to like lose it. Like there’s just sort of like this like yeah. That that like, you know, people sacrifice their integrity, throw people under the bus, let go in search of power. And even like, even when they actually get like millions or billions of dollars, it’s still I think like costs them more than it’s worth. Yeah. And so I like I that just this, this object lesson of like you, like you might seem like it might, you might feel like you’re getting a lot in the moment, but it’s actually just sort of like a, a meager payout for, you know, not ushering it like working towards the kingdom of God. (22m 22s): And that enters us into day four Thursday. So we’re trucking right? A lot. And so d day four Thursday begins with the disciples preparing for Passover. And so they needed to locate a place within Jerusalem, which was the only legitimate location for eating the Passover meal. They needed to search the room for leave and remove anything, including crumbs that might contain yeast, obtain the lamb, have it ritually, slaughtered by the priest in the temple, roast the lamb and prepare it with necessary items. And so all of this is like when it talks about them trying to like find a room, you know, they’re trying to do all of this as outsiders to the community and to prepare all of this and to do it right in a space that wasn’t their home. (23m 6s): And so this then becomes the backdrop for what Christians now term the last supper, but is them also preparing for this meal that was really imp important in their, their religious tradition. Yeah. And it feels important to draw a distinction between the Passover meal that Jesus is eating, that Jesus and disciples are eating that like other Jews at this time would’ve been eating and Passover seders, which did not exist at the time because pass crusaders take the place of the temple sacrifices after the destruction of the temple. Right? When there is no lamour, there’s no longer a temple to sacrifice to. (23m 49s): That is sort of like we remem like one of the parts of the Seder. It’s, it’s to tell the story of the exodus, but also part of it’s to remember the temple sacrifices, right? And so like Jesus observed Passover, but in a wildly different way than modern Jews are observing Passover. Like you were saying, you like going the temple and, and slaughtering lambs for sacrifice. And so like it’s, it feels very inauthentic to say like, oh, I want to celebrate, I’m a Christian And I wanna stay Christian, but I want to celebrate Passover like modern Passover or I don’t wanna say Passover at all because like that’s what Jesus did. And it’s like, no, like that is not what Jesus was doing. (24m 31s): And Passover as it is currently celebrated was sort of a, a later development. Yeah. And so I, this feels like a great time to also talk about the practice of Christian seders. Yes. Which, you know, you And I have gotten into some, some kerfuffles on the interwebs about basically saying that like you can’t, you cannot host, I mean you can, but it’s like not good of you to host a Christian Seder that like, that doesn’t exist. That it’s appropriation of the Jewish tradition. That it’s not even like accurate to what Jesus would have been doing. (25m 12s): It’s just like, it’s just not a good idea. And so then people will always come back with, but I was once invited to go to Passover with my Jewish friends and it’s like, that is a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I have also been invited to Passover with my Jewish friends. Yeah. Like you hosting a Christian Seder in your church with no Jewish people present is not the same thing as you as a Christian with the invitation of a Jewish person going to observe a Seder dinner or Seder service, like in the way that they do it and not a not bringing your Jesus and putting him into it or onto it. (25m 58s): Yeah. It like, it kind of reminds me of also like, you know, it’s like sometimes you get invited to your friend’s birthday party, right? And like you go to celebrate them and their birthday, but it’s like not your birthday and you do it because like you’re a good friend. So I think also it’s like, it’s even it’s, it’s about like if you’re invited to a friend Seder and you’re celebrating like with them to celebrate them, awesome. It’s not about being like, oh, I want to like celebrate Passover to feel more connected to Jesus, so let me go like seek out a Seder at a synagogue or haad as like, yeah. Like be this, like this is like so that, so that sort like take it on as your own spiritual practice. (26m 38s): And I think this is important because like the Eucharist like is kind of like, like if anything is gonna be Christian Seder, right? It’s the Eucharist. Like we have like Christianity has developed like its own tradition around wine, around sacrifice, around bread that has its own like unique and specifically Christian origin and flavor that like is inspired by this but like is like distinctly Christian as opposed to a, a Jewish practice and especially a Jewish practice that came into existence like post it’s, it’s split with Christianity. (27m 19s): You know, in our, our workshop on rituals for resistance, one of the things that we talk about is like when you are in a space of you start to feel disconnected from your own spiritual practice for some reason, like it’s, it’s just, it’s not working for you anymore. And you start to try to find other spiritual practices that do feel right, that do reconnect you, that one of the things that it, that people often do is like, what are things outside of my tradition that I can try out? And one of the things that we talk about in that workshop is that like actually probably anything that you want to try out from another tradition already exists within your own tradition. (28m 2s): You just have to find it, right? Like praying with beads exists in so many different religious traditions. Yeah. So you don’t have to actually go out and buy a Buddhist set of mala beads, right? Like you can pray the rosary or you can find another, there are like anglican beads, right? There are all of these different ways of praying with beads. And so this also feels like a moment for if part of what you’re longing for or hungry for is a different way of connecting to figure out what in your own tradition maybe that hasn’t been practiced in a really long time, but that you can go to Yeah. (28m 42s): And pull out and try in order to not appropriate from other traditions. Yeah. I think like regardless of what your religion or spiritual practice like spiritual school is, like if you like candles, there’s something for you if you like incense or smells, there’s something for you if you like, like, you know, the changing of like the, the wa waxing and waning of the sun over the course of the year. Like there’s something for you there. Yeah. I I I really appreciate that perspective. If you want to like, if the, you don’t really have spiritual practices, the ones that you do feel stale or you’re just like wanting to connect more with a divine in a way that feels like you and also queer and also connected check out ritual tools for resistance and resilience is that Queer Theology com slash virtuals. (29m 31s): So in this narrative then where they’re having this Passover dinner, we do then get a narrative where Jesus petrick predicts his betrayal, he inaugurates the Eucharist. And this is, this is one of those interesting things, right? That the Eucharist, the, the earliest form of the language around it and even some of the tradition was in Paul in First Corinthians. That’s kind of the first place that we have it. And so by the time Matthew is written, this has already become something that Christians do when they gather together. But it’s a, it’s, but all we have at this point is language around what Jesus did at this dinner. (30m 18s): And then so the Matthew takes almost like the liturgy and puts it back into the story and creates a story around it. And so this is another moment where we have this, this fascinating mashup of, of traditions that are getting formed and fleshed out and that we have this picture then when we read First Corinthians of what this last meal looked like, but the last meal was created because of the language in first Corinthians. The two can’t exist really. Yeah. Like that one doesn’t exist separate from the other. And so I think that’s a fascinating thing. I think it’s important to note and to pay attention to. (30m 60s): And it’s also just, I I find it nerdily Interesting. Yeah. And I, this is I think not unique to Christianity that often in religion and spirituality, like sacred stories get developed to sort of like explain why things are the way they already are. So like looking at the story of, you know, in particular Genesis two, right? Of like, and Genesis two and Genesis three of the sort of expulsion from the garden. It’s like why, like why does life’s like, why is life hard? Why does it like hurt? That’s sort of like a big sort of like cosmic question that gets answered in this sort of story of Adam and Eve and the, the apple and the the serpent, the the deceiver. (31m 42s): But also on a, on a more spiritual practices level, you know, there’s lots of discussion around like, do like Jewish people observe the Sabbath because it’s commanded to in the Bible or like, is are the stories in the Bible there? Because as a practice that was already developing and like God resting on the seventh day, like was this story was told and included that because, because of this practice that was already happening, right? So like similarly, a lot of these Christians things are also that we have these like snippets of claims or stories or theological beliefs that then get sort of like fleshed out into story form. And I think like stories like grip us in a way that like creeds are also powerful in their own way, but like a, a story you can sort of like live in and, and explore. (32m 32s): And so I think that that there’s power in stories is something that like an impulse like humans have always done to say like, what, like what happened? What actually happened? What do we imagine happened? What might have happened to sort of like make meaning of our lives? So after dinner, Jesus takes the disciples to the Mount of Olives, Jesus prays and is arrested the small group of disciples that are mentioned here as the ones that he takes apart with him while he prays. Same group that was present at the transfiguration, which feels important to note. And that Jesus’ three times of praying form a contrast to the denials of Peter who sleeps instead of praying. (33m 20s): And it reminds me of the stories we talked last week about being ready, right? That like, yeah, part of what enables Jesus to be ready for what’s coming is this time that he spends connecting with the divine, whereas Peter falls asleep and then when the shit hits the fan, like he’s not prepared because he hasn’t done any of that work. And I, I think just think that’s really interesting. Yeah. You know, like it’s lent right now. And so like I’ve been talking a lot about like rituals and spiritual practices and how like a lot of times it’s like kind of boring, right? Like I shared about how in the past I’ve like gone to a church and sat in the empty sanctuary and like read the same passage us from the prophets and said the same sort of like structured prayer over and over and over again like every day. (34m 7s): And like how that’s like kind of boring but then like prepares you to, to do the hard work. And I, I’ve been thinking about that again, like as we’re back in lunch again, I’ve been sort of like recommitting to like a daily prayer practice And I, you know, I have a DH adhd, like I like know that meditation is like good for me, but like, oh my god, to like sit and like sit still for 10 minutes is like so hard that I’ve actually been finding that like having a like, like a prayer or a blessing or something like that or reading that’s like someone else has figured out what I should, what I should do like helps me get into the, into the groove. (34m 48s): So like every morning I like read the same prayer and like somehow even if it takes me 10 minutes to to, to go through all the readings, that feels easier than just like sitting for 10 minutes. And then what I find is that like after that I am sort of still, I, I I’m, I’m able to sit in silence for, you know, five, 10 minutes if I want to. But also that there’s something about like the prayers and blessings that I’m currently reading involve a lot of talk about, you know, justice and also like forgiveness and, and accountability and like, I don’t know, I like, I I think like being kind of fronted with that every day then like makes me more aware of like, you know, someone, someone shared like a little bit of like ways in which like they, I had hurt their feelings recently and like, I think that like since we’re like smacked out, out in the middle of lent when I like got that text message like, oh, every day I’ve been reading these prayers and blessings about accountability and justice and forgiveness, it now feels harder to like ignore this text message or like explain a what, like justify in my head I could come up with like all the reasons why I did the thing that I did, right. (35m 56s): And it’s like, oh man, like I wanna do that. But like I’ve spent the past like 20 days like reading the same like prayer and blessing over and over and over again about like justice and compassion and forgiveness and like, you know, a sort of like beloved community. And so now I’m like, oh, like I gotta, like this is the moment where I put my money where my mouth is And I like, I think that you can be a moral and take accountability for your actions type of person without religion. Like, and also like having some daily reminders or some regular reminders I think like helps you to do the hard work. Whether it’s something like taking accountability when you hurt someone’s feelings or like being prepared to go toe to toe with like the Roman authorities in Jesus’ time, like white nationalism in our current and fascism in our current time. (36m 45s): Like we need like is like, you’re not gonna go from zero to resisting fascism. You need some like in-between points to, to steal you for that. Yeah. So Judas then comes with temple guards and calls Jesus the outsider’s term rabbi instead of the insider’s term Lord. Which I find really fascinating because it strikes me as like it makes sense that that Judas would call Jesus rabbi because if he called him Lord, it would’ve set Judas apart as one guilty of treason, right. And implicated him in the whole thing that he is trying to set Jesus up for. (37m 26s): But once again, it’s this this sense of like who’s in, who’s out in, in, in the way of like looking at like where do your allegiances lie? Yeah. Whose kingdom are you a part of? Who are you claiming as Lord? Which I, I find really, really interesting. Yeah. And then one of the disciples, and in Matthew it’s not specifically named as Peter. So again we have things where it, things change. The narrative has changed over the course of time. One of the disciples wields a sword and Jesus makes three points the way of nonviolence that Jesus is not being arrested against his will, that he goes willingly and that the scriptures must be fulfilled. (38m 9s): Which isn’t to say that these are prophecies, but that they are the will of God to which Jesus will submit. And then it’s at this moment that all of the disciples abandon him except for Peter. We see none of them again until after the resurrection. So again, this is a place where Matthew is different than some of the other gospels, right? In some of the other gospels, the beloved disciple or some of the Marys are present at the cross. That is not the case in Matthew’s gospel. Everyone’s just gone. The only time we’re gonna see Peter from here on out is when he denies Jesus three times and then he disappears too. So I think that like all of this is, is still really important. (38m 51s): Y’all, we are still in chapter 26 and we’re trucking along in this podcast in 26 55. The word that’s used is bandit. It’s a word that Josephus who is a historian uses for terrorists and freedom fighters who offer armed resistance to Roman occupation. So they’re talking about Jesus being arrested as a bandit, as someone who is part of this terrorist community as a freedom fighter. Yeah. We, we move from the scene in Jesus being arrested to the trial with Caiaphas, the high priest. (39m 32s): This is definitely a hundred percent written as a piece of polemic. The author of Matthew is making these religious leaders out to be the bad guys very much saying that they are even violating their own tradition in the condemnation of Jesus with the high priest tearing his garments. This is probably also like not how any of this worked that they wouldn’t have had, they definitely wouldn’t have had power to like sentence Jesus to death, which is why Matthew then sends Jesus to Pilate. But I think like in general, this type of scene wouldn’t have happened. And so I think it’s really important to ask like why might this scene exist? (40m 12s): What do we do with it? I don’t know if you have any answers Brian, Or you just sit with that. Yeah, I mean I, i I don’t know if I have any answers. So like a few years ago I was on TikTok And I saw this creator Millie, not so Vanilli, who’s a Jewish woman who we ended up having on the podcast last May. I like Van boy so hard, she’s so great. But she, someone asked, in one of her comments, she made a video responding to like, is it possible to like separate Christianity from antisemitism? And she very generously said like, yes, I think so, but it like, it’s gonna take a lot of work and y’all have to do the work. (40m 52s): And I remember being like, oh that is, that is quite generous of you because I think it, I have seen people say like, no, it is not possible that like at its core Christianity, like, it’s like part of the founding myth of Christianity is anti-Semitism. And so like I think like I, like I also like, I sort of like wanted, I sort of like wanted to believe Millie, right? That it is like that that Christianity is not inherently anti-Semitic. That like Jesus was doing a, like a good thing. He was doing a different thing than like some of the other religious leaders at his time. Lots of people were doing different things and like they went different directions, but it doesn’t, for us in the year of our Lord 2023 does not have to be an, an antisemitic. And so I, I think it is incumbent upon people who want to remain Christian to sort of like really stare this text down and be like, like you were saying, like why mo scene exist and and what do we do with it? (41m 43s): And I think it’s also important for folks who don’t want to remain Christian, But we like raised Christian or at least we’re like not raised anything else and like who celebrate Christmas even if it’s in a secular sort of way to really, or like anyone who’s just like not Jewish in general because like anti-Semitism permeates our culture so much to really sit with like what messages about Jews in general. She was religious leaders in particular Jewish law, like Jewish motivations have like permeated you and even just like saying I’m no longer a Christian does not necessarily cure you of like Christianity fueled antisemitism. (42m 27s): So it feels really important to sort of like sit, like sit with that and do some examination around that because so much of, so much of what everyday ordinary people religion or not religious in America think about Judaism is informed by Christianity and in particular like sort of like this version of Christianity, which really sets out to make Jews the ultimate bad guys. Yeah. And I think this is, this is a slightly different direction, but also, you know, just because you’ve left evangelicalism doesn’t mean evangelicalism has left you. And so like even, And I think that that’s another, you know, thing that we run into lots of times of like people rejecting, rejecting certain things, but like not having actually done the work to free themselves of the kind of indoctrination that they received as evangelicals. (43m 18s): And so I think that like that’s all part of the work. Antisemitism is definitely part of what you got indoctrinated with, but there’s there’s more, there’s more than just anti-Semitism. Yeah. And if you, and if you, if you are calling your, the evangelical leaders pharisees as like a derogatory term, like guess what you’re doing? You’re doing an evangelical anti-Semitism and so like cut, cut that out. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So we, we move from the trial with Caiaphas to Peter’s denial. People in the the courtyard area ask Peter three times if he’s with Jesus, he says no, his denials kind of like we said earlier, are in opposition to Jesus’ testimonies and prayers. (44m 1s): One of the things that I found interesting about this is that scholars think that this definitely happened because no one would have fabricated a story about such an important leader in the early church failing in this way. So like the fact that this story exists that, that Peter denied people think that it, that it definitely happened, which I find really interesting. Yeah, I don’t know if I entirely buy that, but I, but it definitely, it definitely feels like anything that gets put in the gospels that like would have raised red flags probably is closer to true because like why would you put something in that would hurt your already struggling and young community? (44m 43s): And so I think this is yeah, one of them. We’ll talk about another when we hit the resurrection. I was just thinking that. Yes. Okay, now we are day five, day five begins, we have Jesus and Pilate, Pilate is the Roman governor. He’s presented as someone who has real political power as opposed to the religious leaders. And we, we have this moment where like moment Jesus goes before Pilate and then there’s an inset of Judas. So like Jesus goes to Pilate and then we get the story of what happened to Judas. And Judas seems to do all of the right things after he turns Jesus over. (45m 25s): He’s sorry, he returns the money that he was given, he acknowledges Jesus’s innocence. But the language one of the commentaries said is really interesting because Judas repentance is the language used there is like regret, repent change one’s mind in contrast to the terms that Matthew uses for discipleship, which are much stronger, which is like to be converted and to reorient one’s life. And it’s used to contrast two people, one who’s all in even when he gets it wrong and one who wasn’t. And I think that that’s really important, right? That there are times when we mess up and that we can seem to do all of the right things, right? (46m 6s): We can apologize, we can say that we got it wrong. We can even, you know, do some kind of small act of reparation. But if we don’t actually fundamentally change our lives, if we don’t reorient ourselves, if we’re not converted, like we’re just gonna continue to do the same things. I mean it feels like that’s important and for white folks in any anti-racism work for Christian folks in working in solidarity with Jewish folks like all of these things, like this is a discipleship means something much bigger than just saying you’re sorry and kind of walking away. Yeah. That distinction between changing your mind and changing your life feels really powerful for me. (46m 51s): Yeah. Okay, now we’re back to pilot. So we have this like insert then back to pilot pilot’s question is clearly a political charge, treason or rebellion against Rome. I, I’m gonna kind of speed through all of some of this. Like the idea that that pilot would release a prisoner during this time, probably not true, seems really, really unlikely historically. But instead the authors trying to highlight that this is like again, a conflict of two kingdoms. Even the language that they’re using for bar sabas, right? Like who is the son of the father? The author of Matthew is saying Jesus. But again, Yeah, Now we’ve got the worst of the polemic. (47m 36s): So the fate of Jesus being accepted by the Jewish people as a crowd and Pilate being absolved, it’s pure propaganda. It, we just have to name that this is pure propaganda coming from the author of Matthew. I do think it’s important to note, not to forgive it, but that like the author of Matthew sees the destruction of the temple that has already happened when Matthew is writing as the punishment that has already been meted out for denying Jesus, which is like not helpful or good, but it, but I think it is important to note that like the author of Matthew doesn’t fall into the trap of proclaiming judgment on Jewish people for generations upon generations like the gospel of John does. (48m 24s): So like, I just wanna note that like that again, even within these narratives, like people are doing different things and that John who now by the time the gospel of John is written, those folks are like not at all connected to Judaism anymore. And like his polemic against the Jewish people has them saying like not only do we accept blame, but like we will accept blame for generations down the line. Whereas Matthew is like, we accept blame, but like we’ve already gotten our punishment. So in Matthew’s mind that’s, it’s already all been done. Which I think again is like, not to say that that’s excusing that or that that was a good thing to say, but I do think like he’s doing something different here, which feels important to pull out as we’re like examining what these gospels are saying that are different for one another. (49m 15s): Yeah. And a lot of Jewish folks at the time were reflecting on the destruction of the temple and saying like, why did this happen? And like, did we do that? And I think like one of the, one of the projects of modern Judaism is to look back and be like, well maybe like, maybe like it wasn’t our fault that like the Jews don’t think like it’s like the temple got destroyed because we were actually Jesus. But there like there is a tradition within Judaism of seeing the destruction of the temple as like a result of, I think it’s like, you know, like baseless hatred or like squabbling amongst, there’s like there, there’s some reason in traditional given and over time people have questioned that to be like, maybe it’s like actually not our fault that we shouldn’t like blame ourselves. Like maybe like Rome was Rome and like Rome was being Rome and like that’s, I like that’s why, that’s why it happened. (50m 1s): So I think that your, that distinction of like it being I think misguided but still sort of like this like one time historical thing rather than like an ongoing curse is important. This also to totally like bring us into modernity just reminds me of like cis gays and lesbians and bi folks who have like historically like the lines between cis queers and trans queers has been like blurry and bendy that like we’ve all just had been sort of like gender and sexuality outlaws together. Like we are are both are like cis queers have like seen as doing like gender wrong even though it’s like our, we we now modern like times conceive of it as like our sex lives and trans folks have been accused of like not just doing gender wrong but also sex wrong and like we’ve been like starting to get some rights and like things are getting like really, really, really scary for all LGBTQ plus people or gender sexual relational minorities, like whatever you wanna call it, right? (51m 3s): It’s getting really scary. Scary. And there are some LGB people who are saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, not us. It’s the like those are the bad guys, those are the ones you want. We, we like Christians, we like America, we like Republicans, we like conservative capitalism values, we like capitalism, like we like sex puritanism. Like really sort of like sucking up to the empire that is America and saying like, we’re not like those queers and not, and those trans folks. And I think that like I see that happening here that Christians are like, shit, Rome is really powerful and they destroyed the temple and were really vulnerable. (51m 51s): And what if we try to say, no, no, no, no, no it’s not us, it’s them. Right? Like, and we, they write in like an absolute like of trying to absolve pilot of this, of saying like, don’t worry Rome, like we don’t blame you. It was definitely Rome. But they’re like, like there’s this, I think this really misguided attempt to say like, it’s okay, please don’t hurt us more. Why don’t you get mad at those people over there instead. Yeah. And we’re like, I think going back early to Judas, like I think like we like sold our soul for for 30 shekels. Like I think like, and we, we’ve been paying for ever since And I think even more so even more like immediately and viscerally and physically Jewish folks have been paying for ever since and it’s like, it’s messy And so like dear fucking queer people don’t, don’t do this shit. (52m 45s): Yeah. All right, now we’re heading, we’re heading on. Jesus has been condemned to death. Simon is compelled to carry Jesus’s cross. The only person named at the crucifixion in Matthew is Simon of Cyrene, which is an outsider and it emphasizes how Jesus has been abandoned by his own disciples. That someone else, someone not even from the community ends up carrying the cross. Jesus is crucified, he’s hung with common criminals. So like at this point it’s insult upon insult. He doesn’t even get to be hung with like other traitors and bandits. He’s just hung with random thieves. (53m 27s): There’s all of these sort of really extravagant, miraculous signs that happen in the gospel of Matthew. The thing to really pay attention to is that many of them echo the Exodus story, which I hadn’t really picked up before. So going back through as you, as you read about these wondrous signs that they’re echoing the Exodus story after Jesus dies, he’s buried not by relatives or disciples, but by Joseph of arimathea, burial of the dead. Especially by tho those killed, by oppressive governments hostile to the Jewish community to to bury the dead was considered an act of piety and much of Judaism. (54m 8s): And so Joseph Ameea does this and it’s also important to note that he’s buried in a known tomb in Matthew Joseph. He, he’s buried in Joseph’s own tomb, but Joseph was someone who is rich and had some clout. And so it’s important to note that because it, this wasn’t an unknown tomb that might later be mistaken or gotten wrong or oops, we can’t find him. This is all part of Matthew’s narrative of like, no, we know where they put the body. So that’s important. Then we have this narrative of the women keeping watch over the tomb again, remember they, they don’t come to anoint Jesus that’s already been done. (54m 52s): Instead it’s simply the two of them keep watch and it provides a continuity of watch. And I thought, I found that to be really interesting too, that like it’s two women, so it’s like two witnesses who are keeping constant vigil over this tomb so that there is like an eyewitness account but that none of the people who heard promises of the resurrection are present ’cause they’ve all run away and aren’t hiding. Which also feels interesting that we’ve got these women that are keeping watch, but none of the people who like have been told what was gonna happen. (55m 32s): They’re just gone. Yeah. All right. Now we got day six unique to Matthew. Again, we have some polemic against Jewish religious leaders. We have the setting of the guard and the ceiling of the tomb. This is only in Matthew and it’s probably to advance the charge apparently current in Matthew’s Jewish environments that the disciples stole the body. And so again, this is a moment where like not excusing it, but there is probably a reason that they’re putting all of this in because they’re fighting back against charges that the followers stole the body. And that that what they’re saying happened didn’t happen. (56m 13s): Now we move to move to day seven. We’ve got two Marys that discovered the tomb. The woman come to the tomb to continue their vigil, it important to witnesses and they see the risen Jesus. And even as the risen one, he bears the marks of his self-giving on the cross. One commentator put it as his permanent character and call to discipleship. I thought, Ooh, that is a, yeah, there is something there that is really, really powerful. We have the women becoming the first witnesses and the first tellers of the gospel. (56m 53s): And it’s also important to note that like the stories of the appearances of Jesus post resurrection between the gospels, they don’t match, they cannot be reconciled. Like they are just different stories. They’re not part of a single historical report. Like each of these authors is trying to do something different theologically. So like trying to just jam ’em all together doesn’t, it doesn’t do you any good. So don’t worry about the fact that they can’t be reconciled. That’s not the point. Yeah. But Matthew’s gospel, the women become agents of, of the gospel. (57m 34s): They’re the first tellers of the gospel. And they also become agents of reconciliation because Jesus tells them to go tell his brothers about his resurrection. And so suddenly now we have a change in language that Jesus is now calling them brothers. And he’s also saying, I know they all abandoned me, but like you go tell them I’m back. And I think that that’s really important and actually really beautiful too. Yeah. Then again, we have a little bit more polemic that the guards are bribed, and here’s something that I found fascinating. They take more money than Judas Scott, so it costs more money to suppress the resurrection than it did to get Jesus killed in the first place, which I found really interesting. (58m 24s): And Brian, I think goes back to your point about like selling our souls and, and do we end up doing more harm in the midst of things? Right? Like there’s something too about Yeah. Yeah. You know, it, we, we get, we get one win, but then like, what do we lose in not pushing for even more? Right? Like they, they maybe got a win in getting Jesus killed, but now they’re gonna like have to spend way more money and do a lot more work to suppress it if, if he’s been resurrected. Yeah. Then we’re, we’re almost to The End, and then we’ll kind of talk about what it all means. Then we get the great commission. So the disciples are back, they met in Galilee, which was a theological place. (59m 7s): The land of gentiles and outsiders. We get another mountain. It doesn’t matter where the mountain is ’cause it’s, it’s not a mountain, it’s a theological mountain, which I think is important. And we get Jesus coming to the disciples and there’s this beautiful line where it’s like the disciples were there and they believed, but, but some doubted and Mm. And that line has always struck me because like here we have this miraculous moment and they were still getting this line about doubt. And one of the commentaries was like, doubt in this context was not skepticism, but the risky wavering of the one who must decide, it’s not to perfect people or angels, but to a worshiping wavering community to whom the world mission is entrusted. (59m 55s): And it’s like, if that just isn’t all of it, right? Yeah. Like, Yeah, It’s not to perfect people. It’s not to angels, it’s not to the powerful, it’s not to, it’s not to anyone. Like, it’s to the messy and doubting and complicated and confused people that like the mission to go out and do all of this work is entrusted. And like that is both terrifying and also I think really meaningful. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if I have all of the answers. I don’t know if I’m a hundred percent certain about what I believe this is really scary. Oh my God. Like am my, like, is this gonna ruin my life? (1h 0m 36s): And also, like, I believe in this call and this cause and this mission and this group of people that are huddled around with me that I’m gonna like risk it all anyways, even in the midst of that doubt is profound. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, and it’s then the, like, the final piece of this entire gospel is, it’s only after all of this that now the disciples are given the authority to teach that they have now gone all in with their discipleship and now they’re the ones that are entrusted to carry on and to continue the mission. And again, like this isn’t, this isn’t just about like then going out and getting a bunch of people to pray or prayer. (1h 1m 20s): It’s like, no, you have to go out and recruit more people into this mission of discipleship, of yes, going against Rome, of centering the poor and the marginalized. Like that is the great commission, not this like go out and get a bunch of people to pray a prayer that they don’t even understand and dunk ’em in some water. Like that’s not, we’ve, we’ve like misunderstood the meaning of it. Like when Jesus says go out and make disciples, that’s what he’s saying. He’s like, you’ve now done this whole thing. You see what it costs you now go get other people to join too. And like, let’s do this work. And that’s, I, that to me is like the call that that continues on today. (1h 2m 2s): Like it’s, we are called to be disciples. We’re called to help other people be disciples, but it’s all around this work of bringing about the kingdom of God here and now. Oh my God. Amen. And that’s the gospel of Matthew. Its entirety. Did it the, do You, Brian, do you have any kind of closing thoughts and reflections as we Finish out? Yes. I mean this is a specific closing thought that’s like, not, doesn’t, doesn’t encompass the whole gospel in Matthew, but you just sort of like scurried right past, like, oh, by the way the accounts of the resurrection and the gospels don’t match are irreconcilable. (1h 2m 42s): And also like, it kind of doesn’t matter, which I think like, I appreciate you pointing out, it reminds me almost, I’ve told this story a few times on the podcast before, it reminds me like when I was a freshman in college, taking my first ever religion class and my professor kinda like you were like on his way to another point was like, oh, by the way, the exodus didn’t historically happen. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? And so like, I think I just wanna acknowledge if you’re listening to this podcast and Shea saying like, oh, they, they don’t match and they aren’t reconciliable, which means like at like, probably none of them actually historically happened. And if that, if that set off like a record scratch in your brain, like what do you mean? (1h 3m 27s): Hey girl, I’ve been there. And also I think that like, I know you’ve said Shay, like I don’t know exactly what happened, but like clearly to, to you at least Shay, like clearly something happened around the crucifixion and what Christians have historically called the resurrection that like transformed these people and then transformed history. And like that is something that like you’re jazzed about. And so like Matthew’s retelling of it, the other retellings of it and various gospels and liturgy and letters, like, they’re all sort of like grappling with a combination of like what historically happened, but also what theologically happened. (1h 4m 10s): What does that mean for us? Especially in a time where there weren’t video cameras, we dunno exactly. Like what what literally happened, even if we did have a video camera. Like you sometimes you don’t even know for sure what quote unquote like what happened. And so like, it’s kind of like trying to make the, this is the moment, right of like the entirety of Jesus’ life and ministry and everything that they’ve been working on, everything they’ve been accomplishing together, everything they’ve been doing, and then the betrayal and then the crucifixion and like, and then like, and then what? And like, so like this is one of those answers to that question that I think like is a profound mystery and like there’s a, I think there’s a lot of value and faithfulness in saying like, we don’t know exactly what happened and that, like perhaps figuring out the literal historical truth was not important to the earliest Christians because like they compiled contradictory accounts in their canonized bible. (1h 5m 15s): And so like that perhaps the answer is like somewhere in between or amongst or in the synergy of them altogether or in the questioning or in the trying to make sense of it for us just as it was for them. And I again, like maybe this, maybe, maybe this is a whole thought for the whole, for the whole podcast that like, like as we look sort of like look at Matthew in its entirety, that like, I think the process of looking for the answers and asking the questions is like just as important as sort of like, like the, the the like where, like the, the places that you land or, or what those answers end up being and that, you know, first Thessalonian is one of my favorite verses like test everything Hal fast to that, which is good. (1h 6m 9s): Like this process of like diving into scripture and saying like, what happened, what a scholars think happened, what do I think happened? What does this mean to like, what did this mean to them? Then what does this mean to me now? Like how does this become not like this isn’t a textbook, right? This is a like a sacred text. And so like how does this inform our sacred communities and like our values driven lives today? Think like that is, that’s like the question of the gospel of Matthew. That’s the question of the Bible. That’s the question of Christianity. That’s the question of this podcast. And so like, I’m just excited to like continue to be asking these questions with you, Shane, and, and unafraid to ask them and to pull up the threads and see where they lead and to be sort of doing that with y’all listening and that are part of our like, listening community and our online communities and yeah. (1h 6m 58s): So I guess that’s my sort of concluding thought. Yeah. And I, And I think what comes up for me, as you say all of that is that for me, all of this questioning and all of these conversations that we’re having and all of the ways that we dive into these texts are all then to leave us with the question, how then shall we live? Right? It doesn’t actually do us any good to bicker about what actually happened and case for Christ it out. And you know, even to talk about like the folks that are like, well, if the Bible’s infallible, we don’t have any true accountant of the resurrection. (1h 7m 39s): It’s like, honey, we don’t have any true account of the resurrection anyway. Not the point. Or like to say that, you know, well, if Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, then all of our faith is worth nothing and, and I’m not gonna be a Christian anymore. Or like, if there is no hell, then, then why do I believe in God? I, I think all of those questions, right, are really important ones to, to answer because they all come back to me to like, okay, then like, how are you gonna live? Like whatever you believe about any of these things, what does that look like in your day-to-day life? How do you treat other people? How, how are you in community? What are you being called to, what are you doing? (1h 8m 20s): And I think that that is the question of Matthew of like, great, all of this happened. What does discipleship look like? How are you going to live in the midst of Rome? How are you going to be a follower? How are you called to this community? What are you going to do with your life? Amen And amen and amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Throwback: The End. Or is it? Matthew 26-28 appeared first on Queer Theology.