Gender is a Calling with Justin Sabia Tanis

In this episode, Fr. Shannon talks with the Rev. Dr. Justin Sabia-Tanis. He is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his Ph.D. from the Graduate Theological Union in Interdisciplinary Studies in addition to a Master of Divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a Doctor of Ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. We explore Justin’s journey as a transgender man of faith, his groundbreaking contributions to trans theology, and the evolution of queer and trans thought within the church and academia. Justin shares the inspiration behind his influential book on trans theology, and reflects on the growing richness and diversity of trans religious scholarship. The conversation also delves into the intersections of art, spirituality, justice, and education, highlighting how creative expression and community-centered leadership can transform theology and the world.

Find more of Rev. Dr. Justin at: https://www.unitedseminary.edu/academics/faculty/justin-sabia-tanis/

Grab a copy

• Trans-Gender: Theology, Ministry, and Communities of Faith
• Injustice at Every Turn A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey

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• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

3 (33s):
Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast Guest series. Today we are so excited to have the reverend Dr. Justin Ana, who is an assistant professor and director of the Social Transformation Program at United Theological Seminary. He earned his PhD from the Graduate Theological Union in interdisciplinary studies, in addition to a master of divinity degree at Harvard Divinity School and a doctor of ministry from San Francisco Theological Seminary. As a pastor, he served congregations in Boston, Honolulu, and San Francisco, and was a director of Leadership Development for Metropolitan Community Churches. He is now with the United Church of Christ.

3 (1m 13s):
In his prior work, he served as managing director at the center for L-G-B-T-Q and gender studies and religion, CLGS, and directed communications for the Hawaii Equal Rights Marriage Project, the National Center for Transgender Equality and out in equal workplace advocates. He has taught at the University of Arizona, Pima Community College, IFF School of Theology, and Pacific School of Religion. He now lives in Minnesota with his husband Henry and their two dogs. Well, Justin, thank you so much for, for being willing to have this conversation and, and do this podcast today. You are one of the, I think, very first like trans theology books I ever read.

3 (1m 55s):
So it’s super fun to to be in conversation and to introduce more people to you and your work. So thanks for being here.

4 (2m 2s):
It’s wonderful to be here. Great to have continue our conversation.

3 (2m 6s):
Yeah. I would love to just start by asking you a, to tell us a little bit of your story, a little bit of who you are and how you got to where you are now.

4 (2m 18s):
Sure. So I’m a, a transgender man, identify queer. I’m currently the director of the social transformation program and an assistant professor at United Theological Seminary of Between Cities, cities, which is exciting for me. So how I got here, or blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, this part. Alright, so how did I get here? I was raised, I was always raised in progressive faith, so I feel lucky that I’ve always brought to my religious practice the sense that justice is a part of being, being a Christian, I’ve never been afraid of hell or any of those things.

4 (3m 3s):
I’ve only known a faith that’s been affirming. So when I came out as queer in 1985, when I came out as trans in the mid to late nineties, I was never concerned about whether I was acceptable in God’s eyes, but rather I also recognized that there were so many people around me who were struggling with that question and also that there was a lack of, there was a lack of information about, about these questions that there was not theology that was written. So I will say that I, I have always been drawn to a radical vision of Jesus as someone who pushed the envelope and challenged us to live in ways that are more compassionate and more compelling, more inclusive to live God’s dominion among us.

4 (3m 59s):
And I would say that this was honed by discovering feminist theology when I was in college, and just the ways it challenged the, even though it had a progressive upbringing, the way it challenged the conventional religion religions to say there’s more to the story, there’s more inclusive, there’s always more love, there’s always more liberative possibilities that we’ve been exposed to before. So I, you know, I practically devoured, you know, writings my Carter Hayward and Katie Canon and, and other theologians from that roseberg and other theologians from that, that era, they, that really shaped my understanding, it’s not only can you come from a faith practice that’s affirming, but you can expand it.

4 (4m 49s):
So I became a, I became a pastor in 1990 in Metropolitan community churches and MC also very much honed by let’s have a liberative faith. Let’s, we don’t have to, we don’t have to agree with what people always told us things about. We could go back to the Bible, we could go back to our traditions and say, where, where’s God’s love in the middle of this? Or where is, where are the liberating possibilities? You know, I was involved in, in both AIDS ministry and yeah, involved in Act Up and some and other movements for queer liberation. I also, I like a lot of politics with my religion, a lot of religion with my politics as a pastor, and then later as an, as an advocate in Washington DC with the National Center for Trans Equality.

4 (5m 39s):
And they’re doing a lot of legislative work, policy work communications about why L-G-B-T-Q people in general and trans people specifically should have the same rights as everyone else, that we should have a society that addresses the gross inequities that brought about by oppressive systems, and particularly the ways in which those are com compounded by racism in our society. Yeah. And then as a result of actually working in the National Trans Discrimination Survey, doing the research there, I found, huh, that being able to be a researcher and have a, have a doctorate was actually really helpful in doing that work. So I went back to school to get a PhD and that’s how I found my way back into academia and working in a seminary now.

4 (6m 26s):
And I don’t know of any other trans people who are on the regular tenure track faculty at a Christian seminary in this country. So I feel really lucky to have to be, to be where I am in working with the incredible faculty and students that I’m working with.

3 (6m 44s):
That’s awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I think, I think so much of the work that we see happening now in trans theology, you know, stuff and, and stuff that I’m seeing kind of in the, in the popular imagination, like God creating outside of the binaries and genesis with marshes and dusk and all of that stuff, all of that really started with your work and your book. And I, I would love for you to talk a little bit about the book that you wrote and, and what inspired that book that it, it’s to my mind still like the best kind of intro to trans theology and, and, and understanding trans issues in the church.

3 (7m 24s):
So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about your book.

4 (7m 27s):
Sure. So I, this is my confession that I’m a super duper nerd, right? So I have a doctorate ministry degree in addition to a PhD because why not have the match set? So I wrote that book as part of my doctorate ministry dissertation at San Francisco Theological Seminary where they had, you know, and that now there are trans students who certainly have gone there years since, by the time I think they didn’t know quite what to do with me in this topic. And I do wanna do, wanna mention that I, that I feel like I built or that work owes its pre has predecessors in the, as I said, in the work of feminist theology, really helping me think about gender as a sec, as a category, but also to the writings of Victoria k Kowski, Vicki Kowski, and of Virginia Malco in gender.

4 (8m 19s):
So Vicki writing several chapters that really looked at e or looked through a trans lens. She was a, she was a theologian and a pastor before she became the first elected trans judge in California. But, so I just wanna acknowledge like that, the work part on that, but then also on what, what is not here. You know, I think I kind of naively thought when I, you know, you know, when I came out as queer, a lesbian in the, in 19 9, 19 85, when I was 1919, you know, suddenly there was a whole, there was, there was support groups to go to and there were pride events and there were community groups and there were books.

4 (9m 2s):
And I think in the nineties when I came out, I was sort of naively assuming that there would be something similar for trans people. And at that time there really was not, and the same was true of theology. So I thought, okay, well what is the book that I wished were here? And that’s what they set out to write. I’ll say, I think my, yeah, I think my two contributions to field one is really pushing this, like, it’s the, the more you push into it, the more you think the idea of Genesis one being about a binary is ludicrous because none of those things are binary. So in fact, like the really cool parts of creation are those liminal spaces. And I think that’s, I think that’s important.

4 (9m 47s):
In fact, I was thinking, I was recently, we were driving up on the north shore of Minnesota, long Lake Superior on vacation earlier, and the University of Minnesota has a department called, there’s a sign out front, like the bu that that building is houses the Department of Limnology. And I have no idea what that is. No. Like, you need to look it up. But I feel like that’s queer, trans and trans and non-binary theology’s, like limnology, that’s our, our space. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think, I think that that was an in insight that I really wanted to add into the discourse is really pushing that question of like, if this is true, then what does it say about all the, how do we read the whole rest of the Bible in, in light of God’s decision to create diversity in such like flamboyant, abundant ways, including things that are not easily categorized that the impulse to categorize as human, the impulse to mess up, you know, to blur all the things and, and live ology, whatever that is, that’s the divine piece.

4 (10m 52s):
And then the second thing I think, you know, the, the insight that was really helpful for me, I, I read an article about bio Anglican priest was a, who’s a trans woman in Carol Stone. And she talked about, she was only two things she was sure of in her life, her, her, her calling as a priest and her calling as a woman. And she never expounded on that. And she died of cancer I think shortly thereafter. But that really stuck with me. And then, you know, I think this idea that gender can be a calling sets us outside of the whole debate about, was I born this way? Was I not born? Like people could, people could be who they are, they can follow follow the path that’s correct for them, that’s insightful for them.

4 (11m 33s):
That’s life giving and meaningful for them. Just like you follow any other calling that it can have, not only can it have different permutations or ways it lives out, it must d resisting the, let’s put everybody in a box. This is the trans narrative. No, it’s like vocation we’re called to, called to be our authentic selves. And that looks as different as there are people.

3 (12m 6s):
Where do you see kind of trans theology moving, you know, since you wrote that book into now and, and even into the future?

4 (12m 14s):
I guess there are sort of three things that I see. One is I think people have dealt more, delved more deeply into the understanding of passages that may be used against trans people in the Bible. You know, and I really, I sort of did a starting start on that in the book. Other people have taken it much further, you know, the fact that the Bible is actually, it has mixed, it’s, I think it’s often portrayed that the Bible is anti-trans in the way that the Bible is anti-gay or something. And I think that it’s gender, the Bible’s really a complicated subject. So, you know, so I’ve seen people explore that in, in some deeper ways.

4 (12m 58s):
There’s also certainly research the US trans survey in 2015, for example, used questions about religion. So we’re getting some of the research and some, the writing I think gives us a broader spectrum of what does it mean to be trans, a trans person of faith? What are our religious paths look like? In what ways, you know, there’s just some beginnings of data from research as an area. I would love to see more what does trans religiosity or lived experiences actually look like. And then I think there’s also, you know, there’s certainly expansion of multiple faith perspectives. You know, I love the work that Chris Page has done with, you know, with trans of really, what, what does the interfaith trans movement look like and how do we learn from one another?

4 (13m 42s):
And then, yeah, I guess what what we, I think there’s also, I guess where I see some of the cutting edges is what does it mean to read, read stories in the Bible, or read or think about positions of faith that apply to everyone? What does it mean if we look through our particular lenses on, on them, you know, what is a trans reading of particular, particular passages and how does that help elevate the idea that this, this is a story for, for everyone who finds it meaningful as opposed to, you know, trans people are ungodly and over there and the rest of us get to have the Bible.

4 (14m 28s):
Like that’s not actually how Jesus taught about it, so not the message. So yeah, I guess those are, those are, you know, I, I think what I think what we’re seeing is that is the rich develop development of voices, the addition of other, other stories, you know, biographies of trans people of faith. You know, I I I see a, I see a broadening and deepening of those categories, and I think we’re just beginning to really then, you know, I’m waiting eagerly and I see this in some of my students, you know, what, is it true with someone who’s really lived a non-binary existence for, you know, for a couple decades gonna write about theology? What, what if you came out as non-binary where you’re in junior high, junior and you have lived that way?

4 (15m 13s):
Like, what are your theological insights that are really different than mine? As a, as a someone who transitioned, for example. And like, I’m really eager, I, I’ve seen a startings of that, but I’m really eager to have someone really do a theology from that perspective. I think that’ll be tremendously exciting.

3 (15m 27s):
Yeah. I, I think we’re, we’re, we’re still in a place where we so many of the people that are are, that are living non-binary and, and even trans lives that have transitioned as children, like we, they haven’t really come of age yet, or we’re just starting to see them come of age. Right. And I think that’s gonna be a totally different experience that’s, that’s gonna be really beautiful.

4 (15m 50s):
And they’re making great contributions too, already with like, their stories in media. So like what is it gonna be look like when that translates into theology? So yeah.

3 (16m 0s):
Do you have a, or a particular trans reading of a scripture passage that, that is exciting to you right now?

4 (16m 10s):
Yes. So I’m, I I’ve been working on the story of the Good Samaritan for a on eus that’s being edited by Katie Valentine and Joseph Marshall that we just, we just submitted them. So I’m, I’m really excited about that. But I look at the story of the Good Samaritan because we are so, well the first reading idea of it is that, is the Good Samaritan is a trans person because we are so used to looking the story of the Good Samaritan associated with the way word good with Samaritans, even in laws, right? You can be a good Samaritan in the law, but in fact, Jesus’ listeners hated Samaritans, right?

4 (16m 54s):
They thought they were blasphemous and unworthy and unfaithful. And there was these skirmishes that happened where people are destroying each other’s religious sites and so forth between choosing Samaritans. And Jesus had even tried to go to a Samaritan village a few past, a few chapter chapters of before, and he said his disciples to make a, prepare a place for him and the Samaritans refuse to do so. He can’t go there. And the disciples say like, give us the word well, rain fire and b brimstone down on this village for not accepting you. And Jesus says, not only does not have anything to do with that, like she says, like, wipe the dust for your feet, like move, move on. Like, let it go, let it go people.

4 (17m 35s):
But then, you know, in this, this story that happens very, he lifts up the Samaritan as the spiritual exemplar that everyone has to follow. Like these people that they were like, the disciples were like, let’s, let’s kill them all. And Jesus like, Hey, and not only that, but I’m gonna tell you about this Samaritan who did this amazing thing, and the person that you were supposed to follow, the one who shows mercy, is from this category that just rejected me, right? So it’s this whole turning of the world. So in that chapter, I argue, you know, for a reading for someone for whom trans people are viewed in some category as sinful or generically icky or whatever, ’cause the religious language of about us as tends to be vague and or the anti tends to be sort of vague and about more about discomfort of the person than about actual theology.

4 (18m 37s):
But like, if that’s the person, the person that you thought was unfaithful and gross and unworthy is the one who shows mercy, that’s where you look for mercy. But I also, I also wanna that I think about the story a second time there, what if the a trans person who is the one on the side of the road who’s been beaten by robbers, which is a much more likely scenario, of course, given the tremendous impact of violence and discrimination in our community, es especially for trans women of color, and the helper is someone flying a don’t tread on me flag with a red, white, and blue pickup truck.

4 (19m 20s):
You know? So, you know, listening to conspiracy radio, what does it mean to read this passage and try to get ourselves as close as we can to Jesus’s intent, which is to shock us into saying, we look not at categories of people, but at their merciful actions. And that’s where you find the dominion of God. That’s where you find the person you’re supposed to follow. You know, how do we use it to really shock ourselves in that way, you know, and that Jesus takes this, this risk actually telling the story like that would’ve really upset some of his listeners in order to make this larger spirit in, in order to guide us to, towards a spiritual insight where we’re able to love our enemies or we’re able to show deeper mercy to one another.

4 (20m 8s):
You know? So, so that’s, that’s the passage I’ve been wrestling most, most with. I’m thinking, how do we take something that’s so familiar to people and say, what does it look like if we’re, if we’re viewing these characters from trans perspectives? So

3 (20m 20s):
I love that. I, I think some, so much of our work at Queer Theology is, is helping people to re-encounter texts that have been so familiar as to have lost their edge or, or their shock value, like you said. I think for those of us who like really grew up steeped in scripture, it’s hard to re-encounter texts newly.

4 (20m 46s):
Yes. And, but I think think, I think that process that, that you’re describing is so important because it helps remind us that we’re heirs of this tradition. Like we get to have the best spiritual insights, spiritual growth that we can have, right? We get to, you know, in a cosmic sense, Christ is concerned that we also get that met. We get to learn from the story of the Good Samaritan too. And that by saying I’m not, I, I’m entitled both of the stories about gender and to the stories about anything else in the Bible or in my tradition, because I, because I I’m worthy of, of that attention is an important message for us, I think.

4 (21m 30s):
So I, I think that is a strength of what you all do.

3 (21m 34s):
Yeah. I, you know, I think what you just said is really vital that we, it it’s not just the passages about sexuality and gender that we can look at from a queer or trans perspective. It’s all of it. And that there, there is work to be done in, in all of these different places, and that’s really, really important.

4 (21m 54s):
Yeah.

3 (21m 56s):
What, what recommendation would you give to someone who maybe is like, brand new to trying to read scripture from their own identity? Maybe they’ve just come out or maybe they’ve, they’ve only been taught to read scripture one way. Do you have kind of a start here piece of advice?

4 (22m 17s):
Well, that’s a great question. I do think that there’s, I mean, the first thing is to truly recognize the location that you’re standing on. Like what is the identity from which you are reading this? And I mean that in a multitude of ways. I mean, not just, I mean both around sexual orientation, gender identity, but also around race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, right? Who am I and how am I looking at this text? And in what ways are, in what ways are those identities helping me see greater insights to the text? And in what ways are they, do they create a barrier that helps me see the text from seeing the text clearly?

4 (22m 58s):
You know, are there things that those have precondition me to not to come to the text, you know, but I, I, I guess the best advice I think that someone once gave to me that, that I give to other people in reading the Bible, which is particularly the New Testament, is to say, pick a book, particularly the gospels, particularly Matthew, mark, Luke, and read it through as a story from start to finish, rather than, I feel so many of us have been trained to like, pull out this little passage, and that’s our Bible study or whatever. And they’re actually stories and they come together differently when you read them as a story, you know, or you read the letters as letters, you read the acts as a sort of a, Hey, this is what we did.

4 (23m 41s):
And I think we’ve gotten unhelpfully away from, you know, the many, many cultures that continue to emphasize the importance of storytelling as a way to learn spiritually. And then you can go back and pull those pieces apart and read the lectionary and do all those things later. But, you know, think from where I’m sitting from, who I’m, what does, what does the story have to say to me, and let me just let it flow over me. And that’s where I would start.

3 (24m 9s):
Hmm. Love that. Whatcha seeing, you know, you’re working in, in a seminary in, in an urban area, what are you kind of seeing as, I, I don’t wanna say trends in theological education, that’s, that’s not quite what I’m getting at, but like, you know, as, as people are, are exploring theology and are maybe interested in working in the church, but maybe actually are interested in getting a seminary education and doing something completely different, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing from your students right now?

4 (24m 43s):
Our students are amazing. I just love them. So I say a couple of things. One is, you know, particularly being in the Twin Cities where George Floyd was murdered, and where, which is at least a catalyst for a new level of awakening in this country to facts that have always been there, of course. But this increasing awareness, and I think we’re beginning to recognize the, the absolute necessity, the moral necessity, the spiritual necessity of doing anti-racist education, of being an anti-racist people, by which, I mean, not that we’ve arrived, but that we’re struggling every moment against the systemic forces that exist in our society that continue, continue to, you know, overwhelm us with racist messages and fighting back against that.

4 (25m 33s):
But that’s a spiritual, and people I think are grasping that you can’t do theology unless you’re grappling with these issues. And I think that’s really important at this moment that, that, that awareness must not be a fleeting thing, but embedded in theological education, I also definitely see what the trend you’re talking about in terms of people may be going into religious vocations, but they’re also very much going into nonprofit work, activist work, chaplaincy work, you know, other things. And then the, the lines of traditional ministry are blurring. But I think, you know, I, I see we see more and more of our students who are there because they recognize the need for change in the world, and they wanna do it grounded deeply in their values.

4 (26m 20s):
You know, these, these upcoming generations, I think take laudably take very seriously the question of a meaningful life. You know, I grew up in the 1980s, that was not a great time for like, you know, money is not meaning, right? I sort of felt swimming up streamers. Now you can talk with, you know, you could have a conversation about what does it mean to devote yourself to that which you you value most, which has, will leave the place better than you left it. You know? And we certainly have a, I mean, one of the things we, we pride ourselves on and or, you know, strive for, but also our students value is I guess a lot of places. And it’s very easy to do injustice education here.

4 (27m 1s):
Here’s how you can spot systemic racism in housing. Here’s how you can identify a sexist statement. It’s very different to talk instead about, like, it’s not enough that that’s like, that’s step, that’s the pre-step. The, the, the real work begins when you say, how am I an effective change agent in line with my values in, in ways that nudge justice a little further down the road? And how do I get a bunch of companions to come help me do that thing? So I, you know, I would say as someone who’s studied leadership and movements for quite a while, this, this idea of collective and communal leadership strategies where, where you get a bunch of companions and you work together to change some things that’s being birthed right now, I think is, you know, I mean, and has been for a while, but again, it’s just, I see a sort of more of an elevation of, of, of, that I think is really exciting.

4 (28m 2s):
I think we’re getting away from ego-driven leadership, or we, or we’re recognizing that ego-driven leadership is ineffective, and if we wanna change the world, we have to have to do a community based piece. So, you know, I think in the progressive seminar, people are taking that, that seriously. And, and I think we’re still learning how to integrate into theological education questions of sex and gender, sexuality and gender identity. And even, I was talking with a friend when I went to seminary, I graduated in 1990, I was sure that the question of inclusive language would’ve been, like, settled a really long time ago, and it’s still not right.

4 (28m 44s):
Yeah. Churches are still having like conniption fits about, you know, calling Godmother or using non-binary lang know calling God they, despite, you know, the centuries of money of discussion about the Trinity. So even though it’s more biblically accurate, so, you know, I think there’s, we have a lot of theological work to do there as well. And theological schools I think need to, need to focus some on how do we help congregations move along with those pieces. But

3 (29m 23s):
Yeah, there, there does, I mean, this is from my own seminary experience too, of, of a bit of a disconnect between, between I guess what I learned and how then I was taught to, in, in have that conversation or not taught frankly, to have that conversation with congregations. And I think that that’s still, I, I hope that that is a gap that is getting closed, but it, it feels really vital.

4 (29m 50s):
Yeah, I was, I’m really excited because I’m teaching queer and trans theologies this fall, and I’ve been working with the Open affirming coalition, the ucc and, and about ways that with QB Floyd in particular, about how we can make that class count for students to be facilitators of those congregation conversations in their congregations, right? So like, how do we not make this just a, and I’m great grateful to them for this, for, for raising this with me so that we, that we’re really being very intentional about closing that gap. So I think it’s part of, it’s in seminary education, making sure that we’re training people to lead being effective leaders.

4 (30m 32s):
But we’ve also been involved in some research at United, what are the felt needs of clergy between what they’re being confronted with, both with in terms of racial justice, also ec ecological necessity right now, climate change and extreme weather, like these were things that I certainly wasn’t prepared for to deal with in seminary or was in theoretical way. So what are the gaps that clergy are experiencing right now? And what is the responsibility or the possibility of the seminary help helping people make meet, update their skills, update their theology or, or re you know, reconceive it in ways that are, that are useful and effective to them, their congregations, their communities.

4 (31m 22s):
And so,

3 (31m 23s):
Yeah, I would love to know from your experiences that this is a bit of a change in direction in our conversation, but, you know, as someone who, who came out and transitioned in the nineties, you know, where, where have you seen the movement, the trans and non-binary community? Where are the shifts you’re seeing? What is really exciting you about what you’re seeing now? Maybe what concerns you too?

4 (31m 49s):
I, I love the, I love the ever expansiveness of people’s identity and the ways to claim that identity. And, you know, I was on the tail, tail end of the arrow in which you had to, you were expected to be straight after you transitioned. You were expected to be, you know, never tell anyone ever again. Like all of those kind of things. Fortunately, I had a wonderful and queer therapist and you know, I, I never got that, but my peers did from the, you know, that you had to, you know, I remember people, you know, you go to support group and people would share like this, these are the lines you have to say to your therapist, you know, I’m gonna kill myself.

4 (32m 34s):
I’m a man trapped in a woman’s body, whatever. Like, you know, like specific lines you had to say. So you would meet those expectations. So like, the fact that we’ve let that go, like, or, or mostly moved past that, not entirely. The other trend that is so, oh my gosh, that just brings so much joy to me, is running into children, young children whose parents believe them when they say that they’re trans, when they understand the themselves differently than their body appears when their parents love them and support them and make sure they’re in schools that are, that are safeguarding their kids’ rights and taking them to pediatricians who, you know, who offer the family options.

4 (33m 16s):
Like the fact that, like, it would never, never have occurred to me to tell my parents when I was wrestling this, I mean, it was not even a, a thing. And my parents were progressives like, you know, my dad in particular dealt very well with my coming out, but coming, I never me when I was a child. So that, and see the, which parents are protecting their children or c keep my from being transgender, I my child’s life in danger because loving my child comes first. So that’s, that’s an amazing thing.

4 (33m 56s):
And I would also say that we’re like the growing recognition that, or the, the growing level of, of the diver, the diversity of within the movement, the fact that that trend trans organizations are paying attention to their leadership, that they’re recognizing that that people of color have had extensive trans organizations all along, are helping ways to, to, to, you know, that we’re struggling with ways to address racism within our organizations. That we’re, we’re recognizing that the, you know, when we safeguard the rights of those in our community who are most vulnerable, then we all are in a much safer place.

4 (34m 40s):
You know, I think these are things we have to continue to stretch ourselves on to say, if we believe in, if we believe in liberation, if we’re doing this for the wellbeing of trans people, then, you know, racism and poverty and all of those issues have gotta be on our leading, our agenda ending violence, you know, because the, the rates of violence and discrimination against white trans people is astronomical, and then it’s compounded so much racism. So yeah. So just I think paying attention to that. So I think there’s this simultaneously, like we have to record with ourselves. We have to think of what is a, just an accurate representation of trans people in our rights looks like.

4 (35m 21s):
But also, you know, the fact that like most of the kids in our church youth group talk about knowing someone in their high school who’s trans, like as if this is like a duh thing, you know, or non-binary. Like, it’s just, it’s such a different world than I ever imagined. So

3 (35m 40s):
Yeah, I, I think that, you know, the statistics were even just a couple years ago that what 70% of of people in the United States didn’t know, right? Anyone who is trans. And I, I just think if we do that report again in even three years, that number’s gonna be

4 (35m 59s):
Very different,

3 (35m 59s):
Drastically smaller. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to ask like, what, what are you working on right now? What’s, what is occupying your time? What are you excited about?

4 (36m 9s):
I just finished a rewrite of the chapter I did on Philippians and the Queer Bible Commentary, and I’m, and the article on Transform antics on the, about the Good Samaritan. I’m also working on my PhD dissertation was about queer artists who’ve been doing, using spirituality in their work for decades. And I profiled four of them. But I’m really interested in this question of how queer artists depict religiosity or spirituality that’s outside of religious institutions and the ways in which we can use queer and trans culture as a lens to understand spirituality in a different way.

4 (36m 53s):
And particularly like, well, both how we can document what that is in as a good in and of itself. This is a spiritual expression of what it means to live differently, to love differently, to be who we are, but also what can release institutions learn, learn from people who reject the hypocrisy of the church or the, the rejection of the church, but maintain rich spiritual, spiritual lives. And so I’m working on getting that towards, towards publication. And while I ended up using gay and lesbian artists, so much of their work, actually d deals with the, with the liminality of gender and the ways in which gender is differently expressed as well.

4 (37m 43s):
So it’s, it’s, I understand why we te when we’re doing like trans, why we tell people the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. But this is another category where, in which actual human beings living this, I’m like, muddied up the water, like own other people. Yeah. So I’m really excited about that in the ways in which there’s a, there’s kind of resilience and profundity and faithfulness that you see in, in, in queer art about faith that, that I, I wanna lift up and celebrate and, and think of, think of the artists as, as a field, as a particular kind of theological tool.

3 (38m 24s):
Who are some of the artists that you looked up?

4 (38m 26s):
So there’s a gay artist in Mexico City named, who has this fascinating story I wrote about it in, in a book called Unlocking Orthodoxies. But he was a young gay child in rural Mexico and envisioned the Virgin Mary as his mother, and Jesus as his father, as a, like an alternative loving family to the complexities of living as a, as a gay boy. And so, so he always had this family to turn to, and he has this particular devotion to the Virgin Arian is one of his paintings called Bene Blessings, in which he and his, his lifelong partner are standing with their arms around each other.

4 (39m 8s):
And the Virgin Mayor, Virgin Guadalupe on her Thema Tillman on their traditional image is standing above them reigning the, the flower. The roses are just raining down over that blessing man. You know, so what does that say about like, the blessings of the virgin on, on their love, you know? So that was one of the artists, Alma Lopez from Los Angeles, who did this amazing series on queers, queer saints, among other things, using butch women, gender diverse women, to look to explore saints who are sort of fell outside the gender binary, like St. Wil Fortis and some of these like weird stories of gender transformation in, in, in the Saints.

4 (39m 53s):
And Elizabeth Olson Wallen, who’s a Swedish photographer. So I look at a series that she did in Jerusalem in which people were deli pictured, deliberately defying the, some of the things in the Bible, like, man shall not lie with a man with showing to men out in public under the walls of Jerusalem. You know, they do these sort of gorilla actions, which people would run in and take the picture, and then they disband. And then the last one is down How, who’s an artist in New Mexico who did a series about the Greco Roman pantheon using gay cowboys, exploring this sort of role of like this myth, the mythos and the figures.

4 (40m 39s):
He also did the stations of the cross that took place of the New York peers in the 1970s, kind of as a metaphor of it’s out of time, but as a metaphor for the AIDS epidemic as well. But there’s a number of o other artists that I looked at along that I studied and wrote about in the process along the way, all of who had sort of for that project, I, I simply focus on people who’ve been involved for a long time, who have, they have a long canon of stuff and people have written about them, which is what you need for your PhD. Yes, there’s a lot of other artists, like we’re having an exhibit with Daniel ar the Venezuelan artist who does a lot of, to this campaign called Noso.

4 (41m 23s):
I’m Not a Joke, which does these beautiful brightly colored, affirming images of LGBTQ people, same sex, love transgender people as this way of positive affirmation. So we’re gonna have him, his work exhibit at United in the Fall. And I’m really excited about, I’m excited about being in seminary where we have these great gender queer and queer images of, of, you know, men with beards made of flowers and all, you know, all these kind Yeah. Self affirming images up on our walls. It’d be a great way to, to teach. So

3 (42m 1s):
Yeah. One of the things that I just, I love about the work that United does is their emphasis on the arts and the, and the, and the kind of conversation between theology and arts. Can you speak a little bit about how you see, how, how you see art and theology going together, and also how those two things either together or separately can really work to bring about change in the world?

4 (42m 29s):
Absolutely. I think art offers us imaginative possibilities to see things that don’t yet exist. And I think to be able to show, in particularly in the work I’ve done with queer art, art, but it’s true in other ways as well, to show queer and trans people as holy, for example, as saints, as worthy of sacred art, sense of a radical theological message that you’re used to being, seeing people who you know, who look like it everyone else or who were not included in this.

4 (43m 12s):
You know, David Vo the artist, you know, did this great image of Jeana as a saint. So just, this is a long trend, but he was trying to uplift to someone who’d been a sex worker like himself as, as a holy figure. So I think this is this really great way of like sacrificing people, but also envisioning a world in which those people are saints or those people are, are holy and sacred worth, you know? So it can envision a different world. And I think the arts also have this really important function of making that which is invisible and ineffable. Something that tangible that we can see, right? So if you draw a picture of God, you’re drawing something that you cannot see and cannot touch into an object that’s actually in three dimensions made of Atos that’s solid, you know, that you can put your hands on.

4 (44m 2s):
And I, I think in that way, I think this is where, you know, the, the Orthodox tradition of icons is sort of this portal between the holy and the, and I think that’s true of, of probably, of all art and particularly sacred art, but it creates this way of, of making that which we cannot see into something tangible and real that we connect with. And that’s really powerful. But yeah, I love the, the program that my colleague Jennifer O. Freeman has, has done there, and Cindy Johnson who has been there before. And, you know, they’ve always emphasized this, you know, the art should be something that, that changes, that changes us, changes the social landscape, changes us as, as spiritual people, that, that introduces ideas into our collective moral imagination.

3 (44m 54s):
If someone wanted to find your work or find you on the interwebs, where, where could they look?

4 (45m 1s):
They could look at United seminary edu on the faculty page, and there I am. That be one place.

3 (45m 9s):
Great. And we’ll put, we’ll put a link to your, your book in the show notes as well. That’d be

4 (45m 14s):
Great

3 (45m 18s):
With everyone, we are doing a rapid four, four questions rapid round so you can answer with one word, with a sentence, whatever comes to you. But the first one is, what’s your favorite thing about your identity? And you can define identity in a multiplicity of ways.

4 (45m 36s):
I appreciate about my identity as a trans man that I was raised with a socially student of a girl, which helps me become a gentle man. The kind of man that, that, that I wanna be. So I’m grateful for that.

3 (45m 50s):
If you could tell young people one thing, what would it be?

4 (45m 54s):
To craft their life with abandoned and care. And you’ll not regret the things that you, the adventures that you choose to go on life is an adventure.

3 (46m 8s):
What is your favorite portrayal of trans men in the media? This could be a book, a movie,

4 (46m 14s):
You know, what comes to mind first is just the lived community of, of people. So probably study art. I’m much better with like, the real flesh of blood people. I, I would say the, yeah,

3 (46m 26s):
Love that. And then finally, what’s something that’s bringing you joy? Lately,

4 (46m 31s):
We moved two years ago to Minnesota, and I treasure all the time that the opportunities to be outside here. So the incredible trees is incredible land here. And at this exact moment, my garden, which is bursting with zucchini and tomatoes and carrots and all the things.

3 (46m 48s):
Love it. Well, thank you so, so much for, for doing this and for being in conversation today. It was really lovely.

5 (46m 56s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To

2 (47m 5s):
Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

5 (47m 13s):
We’ll see you next week.

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