Still Scared About Sex and the Bible?

We’re diving into one of their most asked-about topics: sex, relationships, and faith. Building on years of listener questions like, “Is it okay to masturbate?” “What does the Bible say about premarital sex, polyamory, or kink,” we explore why so many of us seek definitive answers and how that impulse comes from an evangelical mindset that treats the Bible like a rulebook. As always we invite y’all to move beyond arguing Bible passages toward a deeper, embodied understanding of faith, sexuality, and ethics that is grounded in consent, respect, and self-awareness. Queerness, desire, and faith are not at odds. God’s love is not conditional, and living faithfully means embracing complexity, doing inner work, and claiming your inherent goodness. 

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This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

1 (10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G. Murphy.

2 (13s):
And I’m Father Shannon TL Kerns. We’re the co-founders of queer theology.com and your hosts from

1 (17s):
Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news, LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how

2 (23s):
Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here.

1 (32s):
Alright, for this episode, our little two part series on sex and relationships, we want to take a look at a lot of the questions that we’ve gotten over the years about sex and dating and how that intersects with Christianity. A few years ago, my, one of my, my then boyfriend, we were having a conversation about sex and, and queer theology.com and he said, wait, people like strangers on the internet ask you if it’s okay to masturbate and then like what you say back to them matters to them. And I was like, yep, that is, that is something that happens. And so today we wanna look at sort of like broadly at questions like, what does the Bible say about sex?

1 (1m 15s):
Is it okay to masturbate? Is it okay to have premarital sex? Is polyamory okay? Is kink okay? Like, is like insert x, y, Z thing that you might want to do with yourself, with and or with someone else inside and or outside of, of the bedroom in some form of like vaguely sexual and or romantic and or kinky context. And I think that, right? Like say Shea, you have a, a master’s in divinity from Union Theological Seminary in the city of New York, like one of the, you know, premier seminaries in the world. And so like, I’m sure you could give us like a verse by verse breakdown or like an issue by issue breakdown of like, here’s like what the Bible says or, or doesn’t say about masturbation or sex before marriage or sex outside of marriage.

1 (2m 1s):
And we’ve actually gone through a lot of those in our tricky questions about sex workshop, which like looks at each one of those questions that are all user, all listeners submitted questions about sex that we really sort like a one question at a time. But what I want to explore today is like what the, sort of like what happens after that af after you sort of, because I’m sure you’ve had a lot of these conversations. What happens when you tell someone your perspective on what the Bible says about X, Y, z sex related things? So like the, like, then, then where does that leave them? I,

3 (2m 40s):
I think that this is so fascinating, right? Because in many ways this is the same conversation that we have around the collaborative passages. Yeah. Right? Yep. And, and so we’ve got a workshop on that one too, collaborating the clobbers, which which looks at each of those versus and takes them one by one. And, and what we have found in both cases is that like the, this idea is stemming from, I, I think an, an evangelical impulse and frankly an evangelical like teaching that there is a, there is indeed a Bible verse for everything. And that if you can just find the right Bible verse, you will know what to do with your life.

3 (3m 25s):
And so the first thing to say is that like, again, the Bible was not meant to be read in that way. Like that is not how we use the Bible. And so even if you can find chapter and verse, that’s, that’s probably not the best way to read scripture. And what it does is that that still like puts the kind of locus of authority outside of us, right? It, it gives away our ability to really think through who we are as people, what we need and what we want. And, and puts that kind of puts it out there somewhere.

3 (4m 6s):
Like someone can tell us what we can do and if we just follow the rules will be okay. And like the hard thing about life, and I think the hard thing about faith is that like, it’s not just about following a set of rules, right? That, that the Christian life is about an orientation towards being concerned with the things that Jesus and God are concerned about. And that sometimes the ways that we live them that out is gonna look different than the ways that other people are gonna live that out. Right? And that’s, that’s complicated and it’s messy and it requires a lot of us to, to wade through all of that.

3 (4m 46s):
I mean, just thinking about like outside of the realm of sexuality, like the way that we live out our Christian ethics under capitalism, it’s gonna look different, huge for different people, right? Yeah. And it’s complicated and it’s messy. And there are moments where we are making the best decision with what we’ve got at the moment, even though it’s not the best kingdom of God decision, right? And like, it, it gets complicated. And so all of that, to bring us back to sex, to say that like, these questions about what you can and cannot do are more complicated than, yes masturbation is 100% always okay, or no, it’s not right.

3 (5m 28s):
That sometimes the, the answer might be, well, it depends. And like, what work have you done to think about when is it right for you? What are the ethics that you’re trying to live out? And so instead of, instead of going to a chapter in verse, it’s a, it’s a much more complicated and broad idea of what does it look like for you to follow your faith with your body in relationship to your sexuality and in relationship to other people and their bodies and their sexuality.

1 (6m 5s):
Yeah. One of the things that we were really clear about when we started queer theology.com, god, at this 0.9 years ago, was that we don’t want folks to substitute what their pastor told them about their Bible for what we tell them about the Bible. That we think part of about being like honestly a person really like a Christian, definitely, but also like a person in general is like figuring out how do you relate to the bible, to faith, to spirituality, to your sexuality, to your gender, to your sexual and romantic life that like, it’s important for you to claim that because like we can tell you like, it’s okay to masturbate usually most of the time probably, or like, you know, well when you’re talking about sex outside of marriage, like what is the other person?

1 (6m 48s):
What, who is the other person? Like what are they, what are they wanting? There’s lots of these questions, you know, like how to, like what place that sex have in your life, how does it make you feel about your body? Like what work are you doing on that? There’s like you were saying, it’s, it’s so, it’s like it’s, there’s so many factors in it and that it’s like, I don’t know, like it’s a lot easier, right? If to to to say like, don’t ever have sex or like true love weights or it’s also a lot easier to say sex is always good all the time and you should have as, as much as you can all the time without any regard for anyone else. Like, but like, I don’t, like, I don’t think, I don’t know any progressive Christian really that that’s like saying that, right? Like, like the both, like the beauty and also the challenge of being a, like intentional Christian, a progressive Christian, a queer Christian is that like we recognize that like life is complicated and that like sex can be messy and that like relationships always have the possibility for like beauty and grace and creation, and they also have the possibility in them for harm and destruction.

1 (7m 53s):
And so like navigating that tightrope like is tricky, but that’s also like what it means to be human. And so I think like when I hear folks asking about, you know, is it okay to have sex before marriage? What does the Bible say about masturbation? What does the Bible say about king? Usually what’s happening is if you’re asking that question, there’s some sort of like nagging in you of like, is this okay? Am I all right? And that usually comes down to like a fear of like hell or a fear of like pa like pissing off God, if I step out of line, God will remove god’s love from me.

1 (8m 35s):
Or if I step out of line, I will go to hell. Or maybe not specifically connected to anger or damnation, but just sort of this, this, this fear of like, there is something inherently wrong or disordered about me is wanting to have this type of sex or sex in this type of way or sex with this person. Like inherently disordered like, and I, and I, like I am 37, I am, I would call myself like an ethical slut. I’m like polyamorous. I’ve been in a stable long-term relationship for almost 14 years now. Like, and also sometimes I’m like, Ooh, like I want someone to put something in my butt.

1 (9m 16s):
Like, does that make me gross? Or you know, and like when it’s a stranger, like on the internet, it’s like, sometimes it’s much easier. But sometimes my, my partner who I’ve been having gay sex with for 14 years, there even sometimes I worry like, oh no, like, will he still love me if like I want to bottom for instance, you know? And like the answer to that is not in like, I don’t know, Lamentations 1218 or like pick up. I like the, the like the answer to that question is like not going, am I okay? Am I lovable? Am I whole and worthy?

1 (9m 57s):
Like, there’s not a chapter in verse for you specifically. I think that there are lots of chapters and verses that talk about sort of like the divine spark in us and God’s love for us and our place in the world and our interconnectedness. But like the answer to like, am I going to hell, will God hate me? Am I gross? Will my partner stop loving me? Is not going to be solved by asking like, what does the Bible say about masturbation or what does the Bible say about kink? And so part of it is like figuring out the work that you have to do before you can even hear and appreciate the answers to what does the Bible say about sex or kink or consent. And that’s like a lot of self work.

3 (10m 36s):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s like I, I think sometimes people think that just because I’m a super nerd about the Bible, that that’s why I’m always telling people to learn to read the Bible better and, and encouraging people to like do the journey into the Bible course. And, and it’s both a yes and right, like, yes, because I’m a nerd and because I find it really fun. But also that I do think if you learn to read scripture better, it, it takes away some of the angst around trying to find a chapter in verse. And along with that, I, I think what what you were just talking about is so profound and beautiful, and part of what that makes me think of like is if you can start to shift your own posture away from inherently disordered to inherently good and trusting that like you are already good, that you reside in goodness that God loves you, then it opens up a space for you to have a conversation about, okay, if, if like anything that I do is not gonna cause me to lose God’s love or to lose my inherent goodness, what might I then want to do with my body?

3 (11m 54s):
How might I want to explore? What might that look like for me? And it also allows you to have grace for yourself in the moments when you try something that doesn’t work or that you didn’t enjoy or that doesn’t feel good, right? And I, and I think that like we often talk about, listen, if it’s based in mutual respect and consent, like have at it. And, and I think that there is a, there is a moment to say that here too of like, it, if it’s based in mutual consent and respect, you’re not gonna lose God’s favor. But it’s a, but it is a lot easier for us to say that than it is for you to have done the work, to actually believe that, to believe in your inherent goodness, to, to move from a posture of fear to one of love, right?

3 (12m 49s):
And I think that that takes work that’s not just around sexuality. It’s, it is around like, how do we read the Bible? How do we understand God? How do we understand Jesus? How do we understand salvation, right? Like all of these huge theological issues that rear their ugly heads when we’re in bed with someone and suddenly that shame comes up, right? And it’s like, it, it’d be nice. I would love to, to be able to say like, there’s just a simple formula. There’s a prayer you can pray, there’s a verse you can read. Yeah, there’s a lecture you can listen to by a pastor and that’s gonna make all of this go away.

3 (13m 32s):
But the truth is like, it, it, it’s not that easy and it takes work, but also it is possible. Like I, I, I mean I grew up in indoctrinated in the height of purity culture in a fundamentalist evangelical church. And like I have worked through shame, right? So I’m, I it is possible yeah, to do that work to get there, but it does take time.

1 (13m 60s):
Yeah. There, you and I are both huge like book nerds. And so, you know, like we get, like you were saying, there’s not a formula, right? Like, it’s not just like, do this or do that. And so like we, you know, there’s not any like one book or one lecture or one prayer or one checklist that’s going to, to sort of like unlock this for you. Like you were saying, you have to take ownership over this process. So I like, I, there’s been a few books for me that have along the way that have been helpful. And it’s funny because like most of these books are not even about sex, but they get to that sort of underlying question of like, you know, like, am I okay? Am I good? Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu, damaged, good by Dee Anderson, original Blessing by Matthew Fox can sort of all get at, you know, those, that first and last one or like really get at those questions of like, who are we?

1 (14m 47s):
And, and like how does God relate to us? And also what has happened for me in the past and what I’ve seen for folks that we’ve worked with inside of Sanctuary Collective or in our courses or our coaching is that like the, the reading only gets you so far, right? Like at some point you have to like, put the book down and like put what you’ve learned and to practice and you have to like get back into your body. And so if you like, wanna like read these books or read other books, listen to our podcasts and then like figure out how to take action on your own. Like, if we could leave you with one thing, it would be to not just like consume the information, but to take action on them. And if you find that you’ve like read the books and you’d like, listened to the podcast and you’ve like watched the sermons and you’re still getting like, you’re still feeling shame, you’re still feeling uncertain, you still have all these like big questions that are unanswered or these big uncertainties, reach out to us and we will talk with you about some ways that we can support you in moving from like thinking and worrying to living out your ethics and your values and sort of getting back in touch with your body and making this as like a self-directed process.

1 (15m 54s):
So you can email us connected queer theology.com or send us a DM on any of our platform social media as a YouTube and Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

3 (16m 4s):
And I think this is just another moment to, to remind us that all of all of the work that we do is integrated, right? The integration of our sexuality and gender identity into our spirituality, the way that we read the Bible, the theological work that we do, the justice work that we do. Like it’s all, it all comes together and it, it’s all about getting us to integration and to health and wholeness and that all of these pieces work together. And, and it’s impossible to separate out one and hope to find wholeness. And so, so do the work, do it all together, do it in community with us.

3 (16m 45s):
We’re rooting for you and we want to see you healthy and well and whole.

1 (16m 49s):
Amen.

4 (16m 51s):
The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do@queertheology.com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To

2 (16m 60s):
Dive into more of the action, visit us@queertheology.com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

4 (17m 7s):
We’ll see you next week.

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