The Argument

At the end of the year, I wanted to revisit our very first podcast conversation with some of my favorite liberal journalists. In our very first live show in Washington, D.C., Derek Thompson, Ezra Klein, and Matt Yglesias joined me for a disagreement-ridden conversation to tape the first episode of our new video podcast, The Argument.We talk about why Matt spends so much of his time arguing with the left, whether Ezra thinks it matters “who shot first” as the right ramps up its attacks, why Derek picked a fight with the New Antitrust Movement, and much, much more.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, I will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.Editor’s note: This episode was taped on Sept. 5, before the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the escalating threats from the Trump administration.For a full-length, ad-free version of our video podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsArticles discussed:“Messing With Texas: How Big Homebuilders and Private Equity Made American Cities Unaffordable” by Basel Musharbash“The Anti-Abundance Critique on Housing Is Dead Wrong” by Derek Thompson“How do we live with each other?” by Jerusalem Demsas“How to Blow Up a Planet” by Trevor Jackson“What I Got Wrong About DEI” by Eugenia ChengThe Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Gabriele Gratton, a political scientist at the University of New South Wales, explores the roots of rising far-right populism. He argues it's a backlash against technocratic governance, where policy decisions shift from democratic processes to experts. Gratton claims this response is a democratic reaction to elite failure, emphasizing the need for regulatory flexibility within liberalism. The discussion delves into how austerity and delegation have fueled resentment and the challenge of balancing expert authority with democratic engagement.

Kelsey Piper, a staff writer focused on education, dives into America's literacy challenges, emphasizing Mississippi's successful reading reforms. She explains the detrimental shift from phonics to guessing-based reading strategies and highlights how Mississippi's phonics-heavy approach drastically improved student outcomes. Kelsey also discusses the politics surrounding these reforms and the resistance other states face in adopting similar methods. Their conversation touches on broader education issues, accountability, and the need for clear standards to elevate literacy and learning.

Economist Sahil Chinoy, known for his extensive research on economic beliefs and zero-sum thinking, joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explore why many feel threatened by immigration. They dive into Chinoy's large study linking family histories, economic attitudes, and the rise of zero-sum perspectives among younger Americans. The discussion touches on how economic stagnation fuels a sense of scarcity and why certain policy topics trigger zero-sum instincts. They also examine the potential for shifting these entrenched beliefs through persuasion and policy change.

Rising income inequality hurts democracy, health, happiness, and basically anything you can think of … right? Sociologist Lane Kenworthy doesn't think so. In his new book Is Inequality The Problem? Kenworthy argued that inequality is overrated as “the” cause of our problems — and discussed why the data pushes him toward a different set of priorities. Host Jerusalem Demsas is skeptical. Together, they dig into happiness, health, and populism, and they discuss why expanding the social welfare state might matter more than obsessing over the 1%.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at podcast@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website.The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Robinson Meyer, founding editor of Heatmap News and a former Atlantic climate reporter, dives into the complicated world of U.S. climate politics. He discusses the Inflation Reduction Act and its unexpected shortcomings, particularly how it failed to win back young voters. Meyer explores the challenges of biodiversity loss, reveals why many clean energy projects favor red states, and debates the necessity of a right-wing climate constituency. His insights illuminate the complex landscape of climate advocacy and the political hurdles that lie ahead.

Silicon Valley’s sharp right turn didn’t come out of nowhere. Former tech worker and current tech writer Jasmine Sun walks us through how a once-solidly liberal sector became MAGA-curious. We talk about:The rise of “effective accelerationism” (E/acc)Why parts of the tech elite feel betrayed by the Biden administrationHow backlash to regulation, internal employee revolts, crypto crackdowns, and AI safety debates pushed founders toward Trumpworld Sun maps the ideological split between the engineers who see themselves as the last “live players” in American society and the regulators who believe they’re the only ones standing between the public and untested technology.This episode is also about the culture of progress. Host Jerusalem Demsas and Sun, who both attended Progress Conference in October, share their observations about the emerging populist backlash to AI, the failure of the DOGE experiment, Chinese AI and manufacturing strategies, and the widening value gap between tech elites and the rest of the country. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Bill McKibben, a pioneering climate writer and activist, joins to discuss the urgent transition from fossil fuels to clean energy. He argues that solar, wind, and batteries are now the cheapest energy sources, emphasizing the importance of reframing climate messaging to focus on affordability. McKibben highlights global successes like balcony solar in Europe and the swift adoption of renewables in Texas. The conversation also tackles the challenges posed by NIMBYism, the role of carbon capture, and the need for continued subsidies to accelerate the clean energy transition.

Why is free speech losing ground? From crackdowns on immigrants, protesters, and law firms to campus speech codes, social-media “jawboning,” and government pressure – we're witnessing the erosion of the free speech culture that once defined American democracy.Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), a free speech organization. In this episode, he and Jerusalem discuss why defending free speech always means defending the unpopular, how bureaucratic cowardice and partisan outrage feed each other, and what a real revival of liberal tolerance would look like. The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Economics writer Joey Politano joins host Jerusalem Demsas to explain the great tariff comeback story. From bananas and coffee to washing machines and Christmas ornaments, Trump’s new trade war is making life more expensive – but why? They unpack how tariffs actually work, why Trump’s obsession with them never went away, and what it says about America’s growing economic nationalism. Plus: why are politicians obsessed with reviving a 1950s manufacturing economy and can tariffs even make that happen?The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com