The Argument

Was everything we did during COVID-19 a mistake — or are critics rewriting history? In this episode, Jerusalem Demsas talked with The Atlantic's Roge Karma about his reporting on “COVID revisionism,” which is gaining popularity across the political spectrum. The belief posits that not only were lockdowns, masking, and other public-health measures ineffective, but officials knew they wouldn’t work. Together, they traced how early uncertainty, mixed messaging, and political polarization created today’s crisis of trust in public health. They debated what the data actually showed about nonpharmaceutical interventions, how institutions weighed (or ignored) trade-offs, and what lessons we should carry into the next pandemic. From Sweden to school closures, from Francis Collins to the Great Barrington Declaration, this conversation asks what it means to learn from catastrophe without rewriting it.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket CastsThe Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcastThe Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Dr. Rachael Bedard, a practicing physician specializing in internal medicine and a columnist, discusses the implications of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s controversial claims linking Tylenol use in pregnancy to autism. She warns that while liberals see RFK Jr. as unappealing, they might be missing his political influence. Bedard explains the strategies behind RFK's rhetoric, his diverse coalition, and the public health implications of his ideas. She emphasizes the importance of clinicians fostering trust with concerned parents and the need for nuanced public health messaging.

The day-to-day chaos of the Trump administration can make it easy to ignore slow-moving threats on the horizon — like the $37 trillion national debt. How can you pay attention to a crisis building months or years away when every morning brings reports of basic freedoms being stripped away?In this episode of The Argument, host Jerusalem Demsas interviews economics journalist Jordan Weissmann about the U.S. debt crisis, whether Jordan's advancing age has anything to do with his sudden concern about the national debt, and how expanding social welfare programs may rest on taking the national debt seriously.The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem will bring together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.The Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at thergumentmag.com.The Argument is produced by Justin Zuckerman, fact-checked by Eli Richman, with music by Breakmaster Cylinder and art by Ben Tousley. To watch an ad-free version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at TheArgumentMag.com

Ezra Klein, an Opinion columnist at The New York Times, Matt Yglesias, a writer known for actionable policy insights, and Derek Thompson, a cultural and economic commentator, engage in a lively debate. They discuss the challenges facing liberalism, the dynamics of intra-left arguments, and the impact of social media on civic engagement. The panel delves into why liberalism struggles to unite amid cultural conflicts and whether recent critiques of abundance accurately reflect the housing crisis. Their honest exchanges showcase the complexities of political discourse today.