Liminal Living

When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life. You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:10 30 years of friendship 06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it 11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20 15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old 20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field 25:55 The Pressure of Excellence 30:48 Generosity and Abuse from the same source 36:18 Leaving Willow Creek to plant a church 41:46 Driving the hype train off the cliff 46:33 Leaving the pastorate to start a business 51:20 Deconstructing ecclesially 56:45 Finding a new identity post pastorate 1:02:00 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Dr Emily Smith is a PhD epidemiologist whose work has been featured in TIME Magazine, Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and NPR. Dr Emily’s profession as an epidemiologist was a natural way to express her Christian values for loving her neighbor. So when the pandemic hit, she was in a unique spot to rally the church together to love their neighbor as the Good Samaritan taught, or so she thought. Expressing her expertise online made her a target, even from her own church members, whom her husband was pastor of. After threats to her children were made, she broke down with debilitating and chronic migraines for 15 months, spending 6 months in bed. When she was well enough, she wrote of her experiences in a published book entitled, The Science of the Good Samaritan. We have an honest conversation about her journey through this time, and her book. You can connect with Dr Emily’s work at https://emilysmith.substack.com You can purchase her book at https://rb.gy/94v8jh Time Stamps for the episode: 03:08 Science, Astronomy, and Liminal Space 06:25 Epidemiology and Equity 11:02 Searching for the story behind the data 15:24 White collar violence 20:55 Systemic Racism’s historical effect 25:59 Faith over fear… what it really points to 31:03 Speaking out and being thirst into liminal space 36:23 The Evangelical machine 41:28 Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism 45:38 Healing in the dirt in the garden 51:05 Thinking globally 56:37 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home Welcome to season 3 of the Liminal Living podcast. And today we talk with spiritual teacher, artist, and musician, Alana Levandoski. Alana has gone on pilgrimages and come back to alchemize her experiences into music. Her perspective is large and her wisdom is deep. On today’s episode we talk about the importance of longing within the human soul, and how we embody that longing. Our conversation is broad and deep so buckle up. You can connect with Alana’s work at alanalevandoski.com Time Stamps for the episode: 02:34 Pilgrimage and place 07:21 Finding and reclaiming your roots 12:41 Find your people 18:45 Pilgrimage through time in the place you stand 23:13 Healing your soul is changing the world 28:01 Developing a “Christ Consciousness” 33:18 You can’t think your way out of trauma 37:38 A passing age gives birth to another 41:19 Feminine wisdom birth’s Christ into the world 46:49 Escaping the cerebral age without destroying it 49:47 Theologian as Artist 54:00 Leaving the music industry for mysticism 59:06 Learning from Thomas Merton and James Finley 59:06 Do the work 1:09:08 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We made it to the end of the year! So to celebrate I revisited our top three most downloaded episodes*, as well as read some of your comments on your favorite moments. Thank you for listening and contributing to the conversation. Here is to a great season 3! *after recording this, Dr Chris Green’s episode released and became the #1 downloaded episode of the season. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:00 Intro 07:55 #3 most downloaded: Kenneth Tanner 14:40 #2 most downloaded: Rob Bell 21:25 #1 most downloaded: Matt Tebbe 27:46 Joe: Don’t Spiritualize Your Problems 35:20 Terri: Consolation and Desolation 41:43 Collette: Universal Redemption 46:27 Abigail: Kate’s Courage 52:14 Scott: Liminal seasons of new life 58:03 Dave: “The Bible Says” 1:03:51 Rosie: Frames and Reality 1:10:35 David: Rob Bell’s laugh 1:14:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S2 E35: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions Too often theology becomes more about trophy hunting for the “right” answers in order to impress and display. But trophies are dead things. Dr. Chris Green and I talk about the role of art and imagination in the theological process of finding living questions, which are small answers that lead to more questions and explorations. Dr. Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University, the Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony, and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, articles, and reviews, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. He and his wife, Julie, live in Cleveland, TN with their sons Clive and Emery, and their Weimaraner, Auggie. Their oldest, Zoë, is currently attending the University of Oklahoma. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:35 Intro 04:19 Theology and Art 08:25 Where does art come from? 13:46 What does art do? 18:19 Art involves us in the truth 23:46 Art opens us up to truth 28:29 Imagination and Faith 33:41 Sweaty Pentecostalism 38:29 Knowing more about demons than about God 44:31 Bonhoeffer 49:30 A true place to belong 55:22 Incarnation shows us what God is like 1:02:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

God became a human being, the incarnation, a central dogma of the Christian tradition that I was not taught in my Evangelical tradition. Well it was a messy necessity for Chgrist to be human so that the “real” dogma of substitutionary atonement was valid. Father Kenny and I dive into this concept in all its beauty today on what it means that God became human. Father Kenneth Tanner is pastor of Holy Redeemer in Rochester Hills Michigan, writer at Sojourners, Patheos, and Substack, author of an upcoming book called Vulnerable God: Retrieving the Wonder of God-With-Us in Our Humanity, teacher, and wonderful human being. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:31 Intro 03:40 Handing me mystery instead of answers 08:30 Mystery leads to awe and wonder 12:40 A long painful call into ministry 17:48 Grief and anxiety in ministry 22:05 The soil Father Kenny grew out of 25:41 Two responses to the Challenger tragedy 29:42 The expansive idea of God becoming human 34:39 Incarnation IS revelation of God 40:09 God’s humility in Christ is not an anomaly 45:11 The role of Mary in the Incarnation 51:49 God has a mother 57:18 Christ’s humanity is just like our humanity 1:03:32 Reading our fallenness back into God 1:07:59 Vulnerable God, the Book 1:12:43 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S2 E34: Dr Thomas Jay Oord: God is not Omnipotent, and that is Good news. “Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can’t eat it?” -Homer Simpson. All joking aside, today I talk to Dr Thomas Jay Oord about his new book, the Death of Omnipotence, the Birth of Amipotence. This book provides a critique of the classic doctrine of Omnipotence, and why it is good news that God is NOT all powerful. Dr Oord is an award-winning author, and he has written or edited more than thirty books. Oord directs a doctoral program at Northwind Theological Seminary and the Center for Open and Relational Theology. He won the Outstanding Faculty Award twelve times as a full-time professor He also speaks at institutions across the globe. Most recently at Theology Beer Camp with Tripp Fuller. He also runs the Ort Shorts podcast and has been featured on over 50 podcasts. Dr. Oord is known for his contributions to open and relational theology, science and religion, and freedom and relationships for transformation. He and his wife, Cheryl, have three daughters, a son-in-law, and two grandchildren. You can find his work at www.thomasjayoord.com Time Stamps for the episode: 03:18 Theology and Photography 08:55 From faith to Atheism and back to faith 14:47 The problem with “Apologetics” 19:42 Needing a modern moral framework 22:19 Omnipotent God OR Loving God 27:53 The Death of Omnipotence 34:01 Play the mystery card 38:06 Omnipotence vs Amipotence 42:53 God is all Loving with power, not All powerful with love 47:06 Abuses of Omnipotence 52:51 Authority vs Power 58:02 Pet Peeves and Hope 1:02:47 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Have you ever learned a new perspective, started a new diet, or become really religious, and then get on a mission to convert everyone in your path to this new thing… only to leave it behind at some point and wonder what’s real? Me too. It leaves you feeling guilty for being “wrong” or feeling shamed for convincing so many people of something you are not so sure of anymore. What do we do with this part of our history, and how can we hold our current convictions with both confidence and humility? In this episode I share some thoughts I have learned along the way of having conversations with wonderful folks on this podcast. I also offer some perspective on passages of scripture like the widow’s two mites, and the parable of the talents. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:43 Mental Furniture 05:45 Convert, Convince, Convict 11:14 Frames and how we hold them 16:13 Learning from perspectives not my own 21:52 Naming your frames to hold them non-violently 27:48 The Parable of the Talents 33:33 Parable of the Whistleblower 39:36 Interpreting scripture through our frame 44:12 Creating subcultures and naming it reality 49:38 Christian Nationalism 53:52 Hope is not an emotion, but an imagination 57:02 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S2 E32: Scot McKnight: Revelation, End Times, and Christian Nationalism Today I talk with Scot McKnight, he's the professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, a history buff of early Christianity, a theology nerd, and a prolific author of almost 40 published books and academic articles. He's delved deep into topics like the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and how to live the Christian life. McKnight is ordained in the Anglican tradition and is theological advisor to Todd Hunter. Today we explore his most recent book, Revelation for the Rest of Us. We delve into his history in fundamentalism, conversion to Anglicanism, theological explorations, the Book of Revelation, political leanings, and more. It is a conversation to stretch your mind beyond the borders of standard American theology of the “End Times.” You can find Scot’s blog here: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ You can find Scot’s books here: https://rb.gy/xl32he Time Stamps for the episode: 03:32 Introductions 07:14 Roots and Soil Scot grew up in 11:55 Early Fundamentalist Faith 16:45 Shifting to Anglicanism 20:58 Pause for Definition of terms 22:59 Rapture Trauma 27:58 Why this Book and Why now? 34:18 Speculative vs Imaginative readings of Revelation 40:11 Christian Nationalism steeped in Dispensationalism 46:44 Dissident Disciples or MAGA followers 49:46 Finding Hope in today’s world 54:19 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Today on the podcast I have the wonderful privilege of talking with Rob Bell about his new book, Where'd You Park Your Spaceship? We meander in conversation from topics like grief, surfing, death, life, resurrection, hope, dreams, and as the title suggests, a little bit of everything. You can find Rob's work here: www.Robbell.com Time Stamps for this episode: 1:58 Introductions 5:38 Graduating into new seasons of life 10:08 Saying "yes" to life and befriending death 16:23 Intellectual frames don't define reality 22:32 The accumulation of un-grieved grief 27:57 Learning to be human again through grief 34:14 Accepting mortality brings resurrection 41:27 Identity working itself out in writing 47:55 Two halves of Life in narrative 53:59 Heaven and Hell and Reality 1:00:15 En-fleshing ideas in humanity 1:06:38 "The News" and finding hope 1:12:38 We create the world we inhabit, we can uncreate it 1:18:04 Conclusion All music in this episode is provided by Axeltree . SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.