Liminal Living

Has your faith community become a breeding ground for spiritual abuse? Today I talk to Amy Fritz, host of the podcast "Untangled Faith," and we delve into the complexities of spiritual abuse within faith communities, drawing from her personal experiences and her husband's encounters while working for Dave Ramasey. Through occasional articles, Amy shares insights on faith, parenting, and simplifying life while fostering meaningful connections. In this insightful interview, she discusses pivotal moments in her faith journey, theological perspectives that reshaped her thinking, and sustaining practices that offer hope. Touching on topics like reorganized religion, abusive tactics, and the impact of the Evangelical industrial complex, Amy explores where the church could head in the next decade with honesty, humility, and openness. We also talk about failing religious leadership, and the transformation needed to address systemic issues within the church. You can find Amy’s blog here: http://amyfritzwrites.com/ You can connect to Amy’s podcast here: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:39 Network and Connections 06:56 Reorganized religion 11:25 The abuse of “convert and convince” tactics 16:38 Failing religious leaders 22:59 Allergic of pastoral “leadership” culture 29:19 Leadership corruption 33:22 The Evangelical industrial complex 38:03 untangling faith from Evangelical industrial complex 42:50 The apocalypse we find ourselves in 49:02 Asking: what can we own, and help make right? 54:30 Trying church again 59:13 Walmart-ization of western church 1:04:23 Cannibalizing mega church campuses All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Have you struggled with finding community and belonging after deconstruction? Many do, because you are in a liminal space of development, unsure of who you are, what you believe, and therefore, who your people are. Matthew Paul Turner, no relation to Tina, has been on a journey of belonging that he illustrates with a new Children’s book, You Will Always Belong. Matthew takes deep spiritual truths around the concept of identity and makes them accessible to children, and therefore, that inner child in you that desires to belong. The starting place: learn to belong to yourself so that you know what people it is safe to belong to. Matthew Paul Turner has traveled the globe as a photographer, journalist and humanitarian documentarian. But he has truly made his mark in the world of children's literature. The #1 New York Times bestselling author brings an unmatched gift for rhyme and powerful storytelling to his inspiring books for young readers. Whether documenting the struggles of impoverished communities through his non-profit work or capturing the stunning visuals of National Geographic's "The Story of God" series with Morgan Freeman, Turner has a keen eye for narratives that reveal the full depth of the human experience. With deliberate messages of hope, empowerment and unlocking the resilience of the spirit, his children's books blend lyrical prose with lessons that will captivate young minds. From the realities he's witnessed globally to the imaginations he aims to spark, Turner is a versatile storyteller using his talents to craft transformative tales for all ages. You can find Mattthew’s book here: https://rb.gy/95yd5a You can connect to Matthew’s many other works here: https://matthewpaulturner.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 02:46 Beard Talk 06:43 Teenage Drivers 11:43 Matthew the Author 17:19 Writing children’s books for adults 23:29 Hurricane Katrina and shifting politics 29:45 The primacy of compassion 33:56 Changing political camps 38:57 Church as priest of capitalism 44:12 The violence of converting and convicting 49:26 The American Church needs humbling 55:56 Finding belonging 1:01:03 You belong, you do. All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Have you ever felt like your faith tradition put you in a box, stifling your curiosity and ability to ask real questions? If so, then you'll want to hear this interview with author Trey Ferguson. Trey's book "Theologizin Bigger" takes a refreshing look at how to "theologize" - to wrestle with faith and theology in an embodied way that embraces mystery, questioning, and diverse perspectives. In our conversation, Trey unpacked how the Western evangelical desire for a uniform, objective understanding of faith has alienated and dismissed voices from the margins. He made an insightful distinction between merely studying theology as an expert versus the active, effortful work of "theologizing." Trey also painted a powerful picture of Pentecost as the antidote to the Tower of Babel - where the miracle was the ability for truth to be expressed in many languages, not conformity to one standard. With wisdom and lyrical profundity, he issued a call to hold a non-polarized space that allows both questioners and doctrinal guardians to learn from each other's perspectives. Trey's work is an inspiring vision for how to engage faith with intellectual humility while reclaiming our God-given curiosity. Trey Ferguson, is a pastor, podcaster, and public theologian who likes playing with words. Whether it be with tweets, videos, essays, sermonic presentations, Bible studies, podcasts, or speaking engagements, he’s always trying to provoke an image in a seeker with some combination of words. . You can find Trey’s book here: https://rb.gy/s3tzca You can connect to Trey’s many other works here: https://www.pastortrey05.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:46 Sports Dad 08:23 Trey’s soil his life grew from 13:29 Faith Evolution 18:15 Theologizin breaks a sweat 22:35 Theology that works in real life 26:59 Shrinking churches with taller walls 33:09 Inerrancy as white supremacy 38:06 Spiritualizing our problems 43:03 A humble hermeneutic of love 48:29 Weaponizing our ideas 51:20 Pentecost diversity vs Evangelical uniformity 57:20 Prioritize participation not objectification All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What happens when you get two deconstructed pastors in a zoom conversation together? A talk that spans from Thomas Merton’s mysticism, faith evolution, open and relational theology, Christian nationalism, and beer. Today’s conversation is the sharing of two deconstruction journeys and the evolution of faith that took place. Today we talk with Josh Patterson, who runs the (Re)thinking Faith Podcast which explores Christianity and spirituality from a progressive, deconstructed perspective. Coming from an evangelical background, Patterson interviews guests from various faiths and backgrounds to have honest dialogues about questioning long-held Christian beliefs, the intersection of faith and reason, finding meaning outside rigid doctrines, and reconstructing one's spiritual worldview with integrity. Through storytelling, Bible analysis, and respectful discourse, the podcast aims to create a space for those rethinking, doubting, or evolving their faith to engage with the doubts, struggles, and spiritual evolutions many go through. You can find the (Re)thinking Faith podcast here: rb.gy/ong4jw Also Josh’s patreon is here: https://www.patreon.com/RethinkingFaith Time Stamps for the episode: 03:54 Beer 09:46 Kicked out of church 14:02 Evolution of faith and practice 18:45 A mystical experience 23:11 Open and relational theology saved me 27:31 trusting our own experience 31:37 Thomas Merton saved me 37:58 How mystics saved the Church 43:19 Hope, optimism, cynicism and despair 48:53 F#!@, I’m still a Christian 52:43 Voices on the Margins 59:07 Christian nationalism All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life If our theological framework was developed in medieval times under an earth centric understanding of the universe, how does that change with the discovery of near infinite galaxies out there? What does a Christian faith look like that is not earth centric or human centric? What does that do to the doctrine of the incarnation; God becoming human? If intelligent alien life made itself known to us, what theologies would go out the window? Today we talk with Dr Andrew M. Davis, American process philosopher, theologian, and scholar of cosmological wonder. He is program director for the Center for Process Studies where he researches, writes, teaches, and organizes conferences on various aspects of process-relational thought. He has written many academic articles and books, and we talk about his book Metaphysics of Exo-Life: Toward a Constructive Whiteheadian Cosmotheology. But don’t let that title scare you away. This is one of the most fun conversations I have had. It felt like talking theology and philosophy with one of my favorite Science Fiction authors. You can purchase Andrew’s new book here: https://rb.gy/2ou2fs You can find Andrew’s work here: https://www.andrewmdavis.info/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:54 Beer and Philosophy 07:32 Evangelical and academic roots 12:37 Turning points in faith 18:13 Expanding theology to fit the larger cosmos 22:36 Medieval theology in a modern context 26:55 Getting creative with contextualizing theology 31:35 What happens to certain theology if alien life is discovered? 37:44 Decentering our world / recentering our experience 43:03 The Church’s severe humbling through science 48:32 The world as verb instead of noun 54:37 Re-enchanting our modern world 1:01:34 incarnation and un-centering humanity from cosmology 1:08:45 Shift from instrumental value to Intrinsic 1:15:10 Spirituality as bridge between theory and practice 1:18:51 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong Side of Power What happens when the church uses the power of the world to accomplish the purposes of God? You get the Church on the wrong side of power, with a reckoning that needs to take place. Today I talk with David Fitch about his new book, Reckoning with Power, Why the Church Fails when it’s on the Wrong Side of Power. In this work he describes three kinds of power the world uses, and contrasts it with the kind of power that God has. Indeed this is a reckoning of power moment, and Fitch’s book is a wonderful guide. Trigger warning, while our conversation spans theology, politics, culture, and ecclesiology, and made my brain explode a few times, we do talk about modern political figures and events openly. Fitch has been a pastor for 30 years, planting 9 churches, he is the Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary Chicago, IL where he runs a few of their doctoral and masters programs. He is the author of many books, a writer for Missio Alliance, a blogger, and a cohost of the Theology on Mission podcast. You can purchase Fitch’s new book here: https://rb.gy/3k9zlc You can find Fitch’s podcast here: https://rb.gy/9ycm3m You can subscribe to Fitch’s substack here: https://davidfitch.substack.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 02:31 Call me Fitch 08:17 My second conversion 15:12 A different kind of power 20:45 4 kinds of power 26:16 Using worldly power for God’s purposes 29:38 The temptation of authoritarian leaders 34:41 Why January 6th was not a wake up call 40:40 Sequestering God’s power to the inner life 45:41 Promised land nationalism vs Acts ecclesiology 51:29 When worldly power mixes with theology 57:07 Politics and the pulpit 1:01:55 Weaponized ideas 1:06:36 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How can you identify the narratives used by high control pastors to maintain control? In this episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we talk with Jason and Lori Adams-Brown. With extensive backgrounds in intercultural studies, trauma care, and missionary work, Jason and Lori offer invaluable insights into the insidious nature of spiritual abuse within religious communities. Drawing from their own experiences of navigating abusive environments, they shed light on the subtle ways in which abusive leaders manipulate narratives to maintain power and control. Through candid conversation, Jason and Lori provide interpretations of common phrases used to gaslight congregants and shield abusive pastors from accountability. From "We are praying for the pastor" to "We need to change our judgemental thinking," they provide a Google translate version of the gaslighting Christian language, enabling listeners to recognize the reality behind the rhetoric. Moreover, the episode explores the dynamics of faith, career, and personal growth, offering a beacon of hope amidst the darkness. As Jason and Lori share their journey of speaking out against pastoral abuse and advocating for victims, they invite listeners to join them in fostering genuine inclusion, justice, and belonging within religious communities. Tune in to discover how to connect with their work and find hope in a world marred by spiritual exploitation. You can find Lori’s podcast here: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com/ You can contact Jason here: jasonadamsbrown73 (at) gmail (dot) com Time Stamps for the episode: 05:50 Mojitos and Pictionary 10:05 Southern Baptist Roots 13:50 The Conservative Resurgence 18:14 Disillusionment sets in (Jason) 23:56 Being a woman in the SBC 30:51 Preda-pastors and the narratives they weave 36:24 Gaslighting the community 40:34 “We are praying for the pastor” 46:11 “There are people out to get him” 51:54 “They are trying to build their career” 57:15 Protecting metrics 1:00:50 “Dont judge, who hasn’t sinned?” 1:06:11 One way grace, up to the leader 1:10:22 What gives Lori hope 1:15:07 What gives Jason hope 1:17:36 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

9 years ago, Jonathan watched from his picture window as a law enforcement officer drove up his driveway to give him the devastating news that his 20 year old daughter was killed in a car crash. His family has been in the Liminal space of grief ever since. He wrote a book about his grief entitled, indigo, the color of grief. This work guides our discussion today. And yes, I cried. Dr Jonathan Foster is a writer at heart. He writes books, podcasts, and blog posts. He is an author of 5 books, and he helps other authors make books at SacraSagePress. He is involved with the open table network, which provides ordination credentials to progressive religious leaders. And he loves hiking in the Rocky Mountains. You can find Jonathan’s podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jonathan-foster/id1479338607 You can find Jonathan’s work here: www.jonathanfosteronline.com Please go buy Jonathan’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/indigo-color-Jonathan-J-Foster/dp/1737664968 Time Stamps for the episode: 03:30 Thin spaces as Liminal spaces 07:15 Early faith roots run deep 11:18 Wandering in Liminal spaces 17:07 The potency of poetry in liminal spaces 20:39 Encountering cliche after tragedy 23:48 Somatically processing grief 29:23 What grief feels like 34:59 Grief strips you down to simplicity 39:11 Offering solutions vs solidarity 44:35 Your presence becomes a threat to theology 48:58 Hope and Optimism, Cynicism and Faith 54:46 God does not exist, God insists 59:03 A new way of thinking about God is needed 1:04:22 Beauty as Defiance 1:08:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Has deconstruction left you feeling isolated, anxious, and alone? Dr Tim Carson and I talk about the liminality of deconstruction, and how we are in a large collective “we” space of deconstruction, and the desperate need for liminal guides today. We also talk about the neurology of liminality and why it is so transformative. Timothy Carson is the curator of The Liminality Project. And has done Doctoral research and dissertation on Liminality. Tim is also the author of Liminal Reality and Transformational Power (2016), editor of the anthology Neither Here nor There: The Many Voices of Liminality (2019), co-author of Crossing Thresholds: A Practical Theology of Liminality (2021), editor of the anthology The Liminal Loop: Astonishing Stories of Discovery and Hope (2022), and editor of Leaning into the Liminal: A Guide for Counselors and Companions (2024). Tim continues to write, edit, blog, facilitate groups and seminars focused on liminality, and work with people making life’s great passages. Tim teaches a variety of liminality courses in the Honors College of the University of Missouri and is a TEDx speaker, presenting on themes of liminality. You can find Tim’s work here: https://www.theliminalityproject.org/ You can view Tim’s TEDx talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLaTOyVBdME Time Stamps for the episode: 02:43 The Tim and Tom Show 06:15 Liminal conversations around the world 10:33 Liminality and Pastoring 16:04 Liminality in Academia 19:21 Liminality in the Church 23:58 This is your brain on Liminality 29:12 Liminal competency in our leaders 34:48 Liminal journey to rebirth the “me” and “we” 39:45 COVID 19 and collective Liminality 44:43 Training Liminal guides in Ukraine 50:23 Liminal space of deconstruction 56:05 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I get personal today on why I left the Evangelical stream of the faith, but also on why I am still a Christian and a pastor. We explore, historically, what an evangelical is, how fundamentalism took over and partnered itself as a political machine. So I share some of my points of departure, and then go on to share some points of consent, on why I am still in the Christian faith. I also share my vision for something different as a pastor and what I am up to in my neigborhood. Time Stamps for this episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 03:09 A Liminal Age 06:38 4 Characteristics of Evangelicals: 1. Biblicism 11:50 4 Characteristics: 2. Crucicentrism 3. Conversionism 16:55 4 Characteristics: 4. Activism 19:42 The Fundamentalist Shift 24:48 5 Pillars of Fundies: Inerrancy, Virgin Birth, Atonement 29:53 5 Pillars of Fundies: Bodily Resurrection, Historic Miracles 35:26 The Conservative Resurgence of the SBC 40:04 Points of Departure: Inerrancy = authoritarianism 45:32 Points of Departure: Evangelism = Theological Colonialism 49:51 Points of Departure: Hell is the central dogma 53:09 Points of Consent: Why I’m still Christian 58:51 Making Christianity huma again 1:03:09 Conclusions All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree SponsorsQuoir Square 2 Class: https://www.bk2sq1.com/square-2-next-steps-into-reconstruction (Promo code: Liminal for 10% off)Kineo Center: https://www.thekineocenter.com/cohort (mention "Liminal" in Application for $100 off) Monk Manual: https://monkmanual.com/LIMINAL (10% off all merchandise)  ConnectFind us on the web: https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liminallivingFollow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCseqDsKpQv2r7AbFfrWF0owFollow us on Patheos: patheos.com/editorial/podcasts/liminal-living    Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.