Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman’s YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart’s collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

On this episode, I’m taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our Executive Functioning. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. Even though grief and emotional trauma are part of being human, they're both really hard to talk about as we all have experienced or will experience some form of each within our lives. However, not only is everyone’s reaction to grief different, but everyone’s reaction to other people’s grief is different, too. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about. Most of all, hopefully finding some answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. After all, things won’t be the same after loss, so how can we navigate that? I reached out to Dr. Lisa Shulman who is a neurologist and a professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and Our Brain. Her focus on the brain’s reaction to grief and, as you’ll hear her explain, emotional trauma, was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa’s personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic. Her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more and her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. Show NotesLearn more about Dr. Lisa ShulmanRead Lisa’s book Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and our BrainLearn More about Jody LaVoieWatch Hannah’s conversation with Jody on our YouTube ChannelResources on Grief, Loss, and EmotionsGrief Board of Directors Template by Jody LaVoieHow to Feel Your Feelings by @emilyonlife (on Instagram)Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript from Hannah's Conversation with Jody LaVoie (continue scrolling to find the transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman)Hannah Choi 00:00So hi, Jody, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast today.Jody LaVoie 00:27Hi Hannah, thanks for having me. I love talking about this with you.Hannah Choi 00:31Great. So I spoke with Dr. Lisa Shulman earlier in the at the end of last year, and she and I had a great conversation about grief and emotional trauma and how that impacts executive functioning. And I wanted to talk with you because I know that you work with widows who are getting back to...Or maybe you can explain it to me, why don't you explain to me who you work with and how you support them?Jody LaVoie 01:04Yes, no, absolutely. So I am a grief and loss expert. I'm also a widow, myself. I'm a mom, and I've run a business. And I help widows learn to fall in love with their life again. And you brought up an excellent point, Hannah about when when would somebody kind of start being able to feel like they're ready to figure out how to fall in their love with their life again, and it's generally when kind of that overwhelm of grief happens, and you're just trying to check off tasks. And you wake up one day, and you're like, you know, there's got to be more I'm doing it. I'm doing the day to day stuff I'm functioning, but I'm just functioning, how can I find more?Hannah Choi 01:54So at what point would someone reach out for someone, for some support with someone like you?Jody LaVoie 02:28You know, Hannah, it's different for everyone. And I'll give a couple of examples. So when someone receives a terminal diagnosis for their spouse, they start grieving right away, even though they're hopeful. And they're working hard with experimental treatments to, you know, try to not have this person pass away, their grief starts then. So they could come work with me, you know, right. When their spouse dies, I worked with a client even before her spouse had passed away, because she had started grieving a year and a half prior. So for other widows that lose their spouse, suddenly, that's they're in shock. And it takes a little bit of time for them to get to that place of okay, I'm functioning. But I know there's gotta be more.Hannah Choi 03:22Yeah. And after talking with, with Lisa Schulman and learning about how, how loss and emotional trauma impacts our executive functioning, it, it completely makes sense that someone would have might have to wait and not be able to just start to tackle life again, when it has been what has been traumatic and sudden, imagine it. Yes. Do you have to wait? So what are some, what do you recommend to your to the people that you work with? What are some strategies that people can try?Jody LaVoie 04:00You know, and I know we're keeping to executive functioning strategies, which is so important, because obviously, we all need to be able to function our day to day lives and thrive in our day to day lives. And how can we do that better? So the really, the first and foremost thing that we work on is our thoughts, and working on where those thoughts come from. And that doesn't mean that we're ignoring grief. We're pushing the pain away. We're not feeling it just means our thoughts trigger our behaviors, which trigger emotions and it's this endless cycle. And so if you can, there's a couple strategies with your thoughts. One, one, that thought happens if you can pause, just take a breath and actually try to think about, okay, what is this thought really, and where is it coming from and what, what is my action that I'm taking guessing, based on this thought, and what should I be doing differently? So that's one way to do it. And the second thing, there's a series of four questions that I love, there is a coach, an author named Byron Katie, and she helps people really with self-inquiry. And she believes that if you ask yourself these four questions, it, it really promotes thinking and changing. And the first one is ask yourself, if that thought is really true. Is it really true? Second, Can you absolutely know, it's true? Is the second question. Third question. How do you react? And what happens when you believe that thought? And fourth question is, who would you be with out that thought, and that's really releasing and breathing. And, and you as, as the widow and as any person, or now take, taking control of your thought process. And that takes a while. And it takes practice. But just that act of recognizing, so important?Hannah Choi 06:12Yeah, I love that. I remember, one strategy that I learned for grief, that that that I that really helped me was to recognize that you're feeling it and then label the feelings that you're having or label what is happening. Instead of instead of just feeling it also just sort of identify what you're going through, and then and let it happen. And then acknowledge that it happened and sounds like a similar process.Jody LaVoie 06:47Very, very much so and it is so important to label your feelings, feel your feelings. But it's also important to put some parameters around that too, if you are able, I mean, not everybody is able. Everybody is in a different stage. But if you are in the process of okay, feeling sad, it is okay to acknowledge that I'm feeling sad, and I'm missing my person. But I'm going to sit in it for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then I'm going to get off the couch or out of my bed and go do something to move to a different place. So that's, that's, that's helpful as well.Hannah Choi 07:28Yeah. And setting parameters. And that, that requires a lot of a lot of perseverance and, and discipline, but but also, then, I imagine opens up a lot of opportunities for you once you're able to set those parameters.Jody LaVoie 07:45Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 07:47What's something else that you recommend for your?Jody LaVoie 07:51Well as a widow, and I know with Dr. Shulman, you talked a lot about that early stage grief, it's hard to just get stuff done. And all of a sudden, you've have an overwhelming amount of tasks that were just dumped on your plate, not only going through, you know all the paperwork and all of the different things that one must do after you lose a spouse, but that spouse helped around the house help do the errands, help take care of the kids, you now are doing that all on your own. So pick one thing and create a SMART goal around it. Because it's one thing to say, Okay, I am going to get to the gym five days this week. Great. Did you put it on the calendar? Do you know exactly what you're going to do with your what is your outcome you want to have until you actually take action? And put it on your calendar? Like we're not going to happen?Hannah Choi 08:48Yeah, yeah, we love those smart goals at Beyond BookSmart. And we use, we use them a lot. And I know that they really help make those goals more meaningful. So it makes sense that that that would be a really useful, useful strategy to use. Yeah. That's great. Glad to hear you use those as well.Jody LaVoie 09:07Absolutely.Hannah Choi 09:08Yeah. Do you have any other tips?Jody LaVoie 09:12You know, I do. And I love this one. And this helped me a lot. It's creating, I call it your Widow Board of Directors. And I was running a business. So therefore this board of directors concept really, really resonates with me, but these are your people that have your back. These are your people that are going to help you. This is your best friend who's going to run cover for you. If you're if you're like going out today's not a great day. And I need help getting my kids to soccer. You can reach out to this one person and have them get it done. You can have another person that's helping you with your business decisions or your career decisions or just work decisions in general because I As a grieving person, we're not firing on all cylinders, we've got a lot in our brain, and that can cause distractions. But yet, we still want to exceed at our jobs, we still want to get those things done, but have your person that you can call on to help with with that. So designate people to be active in various aspects of your life and, and tell them, here's what I need from you, I need you to check in on me weekly, or I NEED you, but be specific about their role, and the action they need to take.Hannah Choi 10:36And I imagine that can be a difficult thing for people to do. I know, I know, a lot of the clients that I work with, and just people that I've talked to in my life have do have a hard time asking for help. And that's a time when you really need to be able to do that. Do you have any ideas for people who struggle asking for help?Jody LaVoie 10:54You know, I think it's about giving yourself permission. So many of us are perfectionist out there. And you know, prior to losing our spouses, we can keep it all together, and then it all falls apart. And then one can feel embarrassed, shame. Why can't I do all of this? No, no, no, no, no, I'm giving you permission to not be perfect. And to ask for help you need it. And people want to genuinely help you and do things for you.Hannah Choi 11:29Yeah, I love that. And but without asking, they might be afraid. They might not know how to help. So if you're able to ask, then you're gonna, then they're gonna be so happy to help.Jody LaVoie 11:39It's so true. And I coach people that are trying to support grieving people. Just that, be specific, in your ask, because it's a people come to Grievers and say, How can I help and, you know, I, the needs are vast. But to be very specific of, I'd like to bring you dinner this week is Wednesday, or Thursday better. But just be specific, it's helpful.Hannah Choi 12:06 And I love that. That's great. What else you got?Jody LaVoie 12:11You know, it's very easy to forget about yourself, especially as women, we take care of everyone else first. And when we're grieving, our kids are grieving. The other people, relatives, family members are grieving. It's okay to take care of yourself. And you need to because you can't support other people, if you're not putting your oxygen mask on first. And so step one with that is just move your body, whatever that looks like for you. If you can get outside and take a walk, great. Even if you live someplace cold bundle up, just seeing sunlight and breathing in fresh air. So important starts about five minutes, just walk around the block.Hannah Choi 13:03I love that. That's great.Jody LaVoie 13:07Yeah, and one more thing that I do, Hannah. And I know Dr. Shulman talked about this a lot about journaling. And the importance of journaling, which I do what I've also tied into my journaling, gratitude. And so every day, when I get up, my very first thing after I brush my teeth is I, I journal for the day. And I probably spend 5 - 10 minutes, really just writing my thoughts. But at the end of that day's entry, I do two things. One, I write something that I'm really proud of that I did the day before, because celebrating your wins, even the small wins, yeah, are so important. It's so easy. And our brains automatically go to the negative. And there's data that that shows this, Hannah, we have about 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% of them are negative eight, zero. That's crazy. So celebrating a win is important. And then the other thing I put on my journal are three things that I'm grateful for, and getting yourself back to gratitude. Especially when you're you're sad, and you're grieving and you're, you have all of this emotion, but to focus on what is good. And it really helps your brain move to a different space.Hannah Choi 14:35I do the same thing, although I don't do what I'm proud of. And I love that I think we're gonna add that into my journaling. But I do gratitude and I actually just finished up I do it in a line a day journal, one of those like small just has a small entry for every day. And I just finished my fifth year of doing it. Thanks. And I was looking back over I was just reading out loud, my sister and brother in law were over recently and I was reading through it just to see what, you know, what I've been thankful for over the years. And during the pandemic, I noticed that I was many, many days, I was just thankful for sunshine. And, and, and I just looking back on that, I think wow, like, even in those dark days of so challenging for everybody, I was still forced myself to find something that I was thankful for. And some days it was just sunshine. But it's, it's it is possible to find something to be grateful for every day. So true.Jody LaVoie 15:35And I live in gloomy Chicago, and it's winter and the sun is out today. And yeah, just like brought a smile to my face. And that is certainly picked up my spirits. Hannah Choi 15:48Yeah, good. Great. Do you have anything else you'd like to add before we finish?Jody LaVoie 15:52You know, those are going to be my top five. I don't want to give people too many to, you know, chunk off. So if you can tackle those five listeners out there, you will be well on your way to success. Hannah Choi 16:05Yeah, that's great. And where can people find you if they're interested in learning more?Jody LaVoie 16:10Yeah, so I am very active on LinkedIn, under my business Widows in the Workplace. I have an Instagram Widows in the Workplace. And I certainly have a website widows in the workplace.com. Hannah Choi 16:26That's great. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jodi, it's been really interesting talking with you and I really appreciate everything you shared.Jody LaVoie 16:35Thanks, Hannah. I've I've enjoyed our time together as well.Transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa ShulmanHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19Today I'm taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our executive functioning. I really struggled to write the intro for this episode, I kept finding myself putting it off. And if you've listened to my procrastination episode, you'll know that the same thing happened with that one. So I did some reflection to figure out why. And I realized it's because of the same reason. I'm afraid I won't get it right. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. And even though they're part of being human, we have all experienced or will experience some form of it in our lives. And everyone experiences it differently. Everyone's reaction to grief is different. Everyone's reaction to other people's grief is different. It's a big part of these beautiful and difficult lives we're living, and yet it is still so hard to talk about. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about, and maybe finding answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. Things won't be the same after loss. So how can we navigate that? Hannah Choi 01:37I reached out to Dr. Lisa Schulman who is a neurologist and a Professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called before and after loss, a neurologist perspective on loss, grief and our brain. Her focus on the brain's reaction to grief, and as you'll hear her explain, emotional trauma was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa's personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic, her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more. And her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did, and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. When you're done listening, please check out the show notes for more resources, including a link to Dr. Shulman's book, which I highly recommend reading and a conversation I had with Jody LaVoie, a grief coach who supports widows who are returning to work after loss. Okay, let's dive in and learn about grief, emotional trauma and the brain. Hannah Choi 02:56Hi, Lisa, thank you for joining me, could you introduce yourself to our listeners for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:02Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, Hannah, thank you for inviting me. I'm a neurologist and author. I'm a Professor of Neurology at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. And I got involved in the area of emotional trauma, traumatic loss and grief through my own personal experiences. And it really has ended up being something very important to me, close to my heart. And I really looking forward to discussing it with you today.Hannah Choi 03:42Are you comfortable sharing your personal experience and telling your story about how you got to where you are today?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:50Yeah, certainly. You know, I, I mean, I really, I think the place to start is that, you know, I I'm a sub specialist in neurology, I'm what's known as a movement disorder specialist. And most of the patients that I see have Parkinson's disease or Parkinson's related disorders, various forms of what we call neuro degenerative disorders. And I've been doing this for about 30 years now. And so, you know, I have followed many, many, many people through serious illness, you know, to points where they are quite disabled and of life. And, you know, and for those reasons, you know, I thought to myself when I confronted serious illness in my life when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, I thought that I was more prepared than the average person as somebody who counseled others going through hard times. I should vivid, my husband Bill is a neurologist too, and we work closely together. And I think that in over the experience of his illness and his decline and ultimately, his death, you know, I was taken aback or unprepared for the fact that I, you know, like so many things in life that you don't know really know what it is until you're in somebody's shoes. And, and the fact of the matter was that when he was seemingly suddenly gone, I was ill prepared, and was had a really tough time of it. As for a while I floundered, you know, because I hadn't expected to feel the way I felt all of the new precautions. And at some point, many months, many months later, well, actually, I started spontaneously to write a journal and just to get my feelings on a paper piece of paper, although I'd never done anything like that before. And then many months later, I made the connection, which wasn't as obvious as it seems to me now, between my own experience, and a personal experience I was having of loss, and my professional world, of understanding how the brain works, and the brain responds. Which really, you know, it's like one of these things where you think afterwards, you know, I, you know, because I, in my, I'm a researcher, I not only see patients, but I do research, and I write, manuscripts, and a lot of the papers I've published are about the behavioral responses, adjustment, quality of life, managing difficulty in one's life. And yeah, it took me months to, you know, Link, obvious similarities between what I was going through in my professional life. And that ultimately led me to quite a bit of research into brain function, about how the brain responds to emotional trauma and loss. And ultimately, I began to find that is a path forward for me. And then I wrote the book based on that information.Hannah Choi 07:46Yeah, I really, I really, really, really enjoyed your book, I, I be what you said just a little bit ago about you feeling like you were prepared. My personal interest in learning about grief and, and emotional trauma, and the impact on the brain comes from experience that I had in my family, and with some friends, I had a period of five years in a row, where we had some pretty traumatic and unexpected losses. And, and I now looking back on it, I feel like when that happens, again, because it is a part of life, I want to be more prepared. And that is my that's, that's kind of like the motivator for me. And but it's interesting what you said, like you don't, when it's yourself, and it's you feeling it, it's, I imagine it is harder to make that connection and realize, like, oh, wait a second.Dr. Lisa Shulman 08:50Like one of the one of the things that I often start off with when I'm giving a talk on this topic, is how Psychiatry and Neurology are the same thing. And even though as a neurologist, I will understand the brain function that governs our behavior, our mental health, our personality. But when even even though I understand that, I can't wrap my arms around it to be honest, it's like something I have to sort of intellectualize because you the texture of our lives, our experiences are so rich, and so compelling, that to think that this is related to neurotransmitters and neurons, nerve cells, you know, it boggles the mind. Yeah, even for a neurologist who studies it.Hannah Choi 09:55Yeah, and I am, I am far from that and but the little that I do know about the brain, it both helps to understand, okay, this is my brain, but then the same time, like what? It doesn't feel like it's just my brain? Yeah. So when we first when we first communicated, we and you mentioned it a little bit, just just a bit ago, I had asked to talk with you about grief and the connection between the brain and executive function skills. And you suggested that we also include emotional trauma. And I was just wondering if you could explain that in diseases? Are they different from each other? Are they the same? Does the brain react differently?Dr. Lisa Shulman 10:45Yeah, you know, I'm gonna challenge you even in the way you asked that question us, from the conventional physician, that grief has this special position and emotional trauma is different, and that I'm trying to push them together. But I would push back and say that, that is a notion about grief, having a unique position in the spectrum of emotional trauma, but that the more you understand about the way the brain behaves, what parts of the brain respond to serious traumatic loss of all types. The more you see that grief is just in the spectrum of emotional trauma, right. And that, you know, we have one of the most intriguing parts and these things will be eternally intriguing to me, is that how different we all are, in terms of the impact of different events in our lives, and you cannot pinpoint or a map, you can't predict what for one person will be emotionally traumatic, and what will not. We certainly all know people who have had significant, say, losses of loved ones in their life, but they don't go through a terrible period, not everybody does. And by the same token, we see people who suffer other losses in their life, it may be a loss of a job, it could be a breakup with some relationship, it could be the loss of a pet, it could be a, you know, a physical assault, you could go on and on. Certainly COVID, the pandemic has been a source of trauma, emotional trauma and loss in our lives. So you can't pinpoint it. And so I would just say that for every individual, imagine a spectrum or range where you have a unique range of for you what is most would be the greatest and most of your causes of emotional trauma. And that is, I think, the, for me, it's the most appropriate and accurate way to think about it. You know, I think the most important thing is to think of this is a very important point I'd like to leave with your listeners, which is that the brain is agnostic to the type of trauma, the isn't there isn't any unique area of the brain to respond to one of those forms of emotional trauma that I mentioned or another. You know, it might be that you're planning on going to graduate school, and you really, like totally crash when you're taking a test, you need it to ace and that for you is you walk out in a state of utter shock, how it's going to affect your life that you know for you is triggering the same responses as the person in fact, who might find themselves sadly, losing a loved one, it's just a matter of severity for each individual. So it's not the cause it's not the triggering event or the type of event. It's the individual personal meaning of the event that ends up triggering the same cascade of responses.Hannah Choi 14:39And, and that the actual response within the brain. It's like not necess not necessarily there, like how it looks, how it looks externally but what's going on inside of their brain. Is that right? Dr. Lisa Shulman 14:52Right. Right. Exactly. So you know all the consequences, the symptoms, the consequences, this equality It all would be the same based on the severity of the loss.Hannah Choi 15:05Yeah, you know, I was I lost my dog about four years ago. And, and that hit me harder way harder than I ever thought it would. And I found myself sometimes thinking, Oh, this is horrible, just like judging myself, like, you shouldn't, you know, she was just a dog. You know, it's but, but what you're seeing now is making me feel a lot better. I mean, and I caught myself when I said that I, you know, I said, No, she wasn't the, because if experience for me if that loss was so great, so it must have been more than she was just a dog. So it's good to hear that, that, that,Dr. Lisa Shulman 15:47You know, I would I thought a lot and done, you know, reading about why certain things are so personally, individually emotionally traumatic, and that one cannot predict that necessarily, you know, I, I believe that there is it relates to the topic of identity and the story that we have constructed for ourselves about our lives about where we fit in the world. What makes sense to us, the infrastructure of how we get up every day interact with people do our jobs are potentially a partner or parent, all the roles we take, we have a conception, the conceptual framework, and that is related to our identity. And when some piece of that is lost, or injured or at risk, that is jumping to the idea of brain function here perceived by the brain, as an actual assault on or threat to our survival. And this is another very key concept here. And it's a matter of it may sound jarring, and I think the first time I saw that, in the literature, I I thought, wow, you know, could that possibly be? But you have to think of this from an evolutionary standpoint. And from an evolutionary standpoint, I mean, this is how our brain ended up being wired, based on evolution. And our and our brains are all incredibly similar to each other, actually, we think of ourselves as individuals, but who we have the same hardwiring. So the fact is that over evolution, we all know that we were being changed by what would allow enable us to survive. And those who were poorly prepared and unable to move to vulnerable would not have survived with evolutionarily. So we the most hardwired, the most high priority, from the perspective of your brain, not your mind your brand, yes, is keeping us alive, keeping us functional, right. And that is what ends up ruling the day in terms of this of the brain to be triggered by some loss. If it's perceived as something that could be a threat to our function to our survival, then, you know, potentially even all hell could break loose as the brain kicks in with all sorts of reflexes to help us go through bad times.Hannah Choi 19:17Yeah, that's so interesting. So, I was just thinking, Oh, maybe I come from a long line of the first people who domesticated dogs. That's why I felt it so strongly. So how, how, how does the brain react to emotional trauma. What's going on in there? And, and then I don't know if you can bring anything in about executive function since that's my particular interest. But I mean, executive functioning affects all areas of our lives. So it's kind of in just naturally part of that I'm, I'm sure.19:59Yeah, well, I can certainly bring that in. So I think that when we think about how the brain reacts to emotional trauma, it's helpful to organize it from the standpoint of acute responses and chronic responses. And how acute our responses are the immediate short term responses to things in our lives in our environment to triggers. And the there are chronic effects of these acute accumulation of acute responses over and over. You know, from the standpoint of the acute responses, it's easy, because everybody understands, I think, the basic concept of fight or flight. And, you know, if we are in the crosshairs of a bear, a gun, a car, you know, the same response again, you know, there isn't a different response for a bear or the car, it is the same response, which is a survival response of fight or flight. And it is a massive brain and systemic response. That immediately jolts our mind to be vigilant and alert, as alert as we possibly can be blocks out anything extraneous, gets our heart, our lungs, our muscles, prepared to run, to fight to breathe hard, and so forth, we are totally focused on you know, somehow surviving. So that is the acute response. And the fact is that after, we want to talk about grief itself, after the loss of a loved one, our world is filled with daily triggers, that each time we are exposed to these things, sometimes it's somewhat anticipated, but sometimes it is absolutely not. We find ourselves going through that over and over and over. Now, the chronic effects of it are very interesting because it's related to something called neuroplasticity, which is not as complicated as it may sound. Because neuroplasticity is simply that the brain is continually rewiring itself, based on our experiences. You know, right at this moment, we've met each other, we're chatting together, we're going to remember this, and our brain is establishing new, great connections for us to go back to in the future. And that's neuroplasticity. So, but the neuroplastic changes that occur, based on what I just talked about the continual or petitive triggering of the alarm of trouble for the fight or flight mechanism results in the part of the brain that colloquially is called the fear center, but from a neurologic standpoint is called the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system. So the fear center is constantly being strengthened while the cortical functions which are like all of our thinking, our memory, our executive functions, our judgment, all that is being weakened. And it's very important because actually, there are scientific many, many studies, this is not speculation, it shows that the brain pathways that connect the fear center to the our intellect, are being weakened. Because the fear center is being strengthened, the effects of the judgment are being weakened, we can also see that the volume of the different parts of the brain are being altered, in that the fear center is being gets larger, literally. While the the parts of the brain we need to calm ourselves that down and why some compose ourselves are being getting smaller. And this also affects on the brain activity between the two, which is very unhealthy. Everything we do in life is some interaction between the emotional side of the brain which is very primitive, right, you know, and the cerebral cortex, which is our advanced friend, so you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'm not too crazy about roaches or spiders. You know, I like I can if I see a bad spider or roach, I could get triggered. I don't want you eat us Oh, but you know, but then like, you know, your seat of wisdom, like kicks in and goes, you know, I'm living alone now. And I don't have anybody to go. And then I just say, you know, I calm down if you're just gonna have to deal with this, because not gonna get into bed with a spider in my room, you know? So, you know, you can see that interplay between the fear center and the intellect. Yeah, it has to be a healthy balance, right. And unfortunately, based on the set of circumstances, I've described, it imbalance occurs, and you end up being, you know, like, this raw, primitive brain that's autonomously setting off the alarm. And then you know, and then what do we see amongst the people who are going through emotional trauma and or having difficulties? You know, we hear them describe feelings of anxiety, difficulty with their sleep. Flashbacks. And from your perspective, the issues of executive function are being weakened, because they're the the fear center, the primitive responses of fear are predominating.Hannah Choi 26:35Yeah, and I was I was, I remembered, in part of your book, you said that one of the strongest predictors for I'm not sure how to describe it, but for feeling, for lack of better words, feeling like, Okay, after emotional trauma is the idea of self-efficacy. And, and I imagine that feeling that cognitive self efficacy comes a lot from being able to access your executive function, and being able to use that that part of your brain.27:15Yeah, I think I'm really glad you brought that up. Because a lot of my love of my research and work has focused on self-efficacy for managing chronic illness. And, you know, in my own crazy journey, figuring out things at some point, it was another kind of like epiphany, where I went, Oh, wow, that's another? Why didn't I ever think about that, you know, this, that grief, or emotional trauma can be seen as a chronic condition? Yeah, a chronic condition, just like the chronic medical conditions I had, you know, been studying for a long time. And so from that standpoint, you're right, what we're seeking is to develop self efficacy to manage this condition, emotional trauma, traumatic loss or grief. And self-efficacy, that phrase may not be common, commonly known to some people, it simply means that you have a level of confidence, or belief in yourself that you can manage your situation. And importantly, I think of it as that you are developing a sense of control over your life. We all you know, we all seek in our daily life, a sense of control, when you don't when you're not feeling a sense of control. It's very distressing. Yeah, very.Hannah Choi 28:48So, so many of the clients and pretty much all of the clients I've ever worked with, and all of my colleagues to it comes up that that after after figuring out what strategies and tools work best for them to support the areas of executive function that challenge them, once they figure that out, and they're able to have some control over that area. They all say they feel more confident. And and that is that self efficacy right there.Dr. Lisa Shulman 29:15Right, you know, the, the kind of the pathway is that one needs to develop basic font of knowledge about your situation, and then develop skills of self management, which it sounds like you're counseling people about, and then by practicing those new skills, that every time you do it, that you start to have increasing confidence and increasing sense of control. So you sort of build on it until you reverse the cycle of feeling helpless.Hannah Choi 29:58So if you have an end unbalance in the fear center like the limbic system is kind of taking over and inhibiting the part of the brain that we're using for executive functions. What are some things that people can do to write that balance? And, and I'm sure, like right after this, that whatever traumatic incident happens, it's really difficult to get out of that. What are some things that people can can try?30:24You know, I think that that was one of the most encouraging parts of what I learned over time, because I realized that it certainly is calming and reassuring to understand the way in which the brain is responding and how it explains your experience that in and of itself is comforting to know that, you know, you're not as many people say, going crazy, that you're not having this, you know, breakdown, so to speak, but that this is a common, we're all in it together. We're all going through it together. And I think that's very reassuring. But the epiphany was when I realized that it leads to obvious interventions, I thought this is this is exciting. You know, it actually I want to start go back for a moment to what I referred to before about neuroplasticity. So what I was describing before, is a spiraling down into bad neuroplasticity, the brain has been rewired in this unhealthy Well, way. And the important part of understanding neuroplastic changes is that we can thoughtfully and deliberately rewire and create connections, brain connections, neuro connections, but those that are healthier to move the needle in reverse good neuroplasticity, you know, neurologists have a cool phrase that we use, that when things fire together, they wire together. I've heard that, yeah, great. And that is actually a great description of neuroplasticity. That, you know, it's nothing more complicated than practice makes perfect. You know, if you, if you sit down to learn a musical instrument, you can can't do a thing if you get on a bicycle for the first time. Forget it, you know, but, you know, you keep on doing it. And you know, Eureka, suddenly you're have a new skill, and oftentimes you never lose it. So what is that, it's things that fire together, wire together. And so we can use that understanding and knowledge to think about how what steps we can take to reverse the process, which is causing everything I said before the fear center to be this crazy alarm in our head. That is domineering our life over time for some of us. So what what can we do? Well, you know, actually, in my book, I just want to mention that, you know, I actually wrote my book with people, for people who are going through very difficult times, and I will never forget how disorganized my thoughts were, during that period of time. So I wrote in the book, what I called three steps, which were to organize a strategy because I felt that I needed it. I personally needed things, you know, spoon fed and so forth at the time. And so I thought, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed by what I'm saying here, and that they have to figure it out. So the three steps that I described in the book was the first one was, and I'll describe the three in a moment. The first one I called subconscious, conscious integration. And the second one is immersion and distraction. The third one is gradually opening the mind to new possibilities. So I'll briefly describe each. Subconscious conscious integration is one way to describe that what I described before that there has been a disconnect between the emotional parts of the brain and the cognitive parts of the brain. And from that standpoint, a lot of the disturbing emotions and memories from a time of trauma It ended up being suppressed in our subconscious. They're not accessible to us. Part of the reason they're not, the main reason they're not accessible to us is because it sets an alarm off every time we even go in that direction. Right? So but it's a big part, it is key to healing, to reconnect with that, because when you have a lot of disturbing stuff in your subconscious, this results in flashbacks, nightmares, or panic attacks. Well, that. So that's what that first step is, we'll talk come back and talk about how to accomplish it in a moment to is immersion and distraction. And what that refers to is that, you know, one can't do go through the angst of what some people might call grief work constantly, you have to be very aware that you need to give your mind and yourself and your brain space to chill out and have some enjoyable times. So that's what immersion and distraction means. Sometimes you're going to have to do the hard work of immersing immersing immersing immersing yourself in these difficult memories, which for me was when I was doing the journaling. But that I would plan in my day, also other times where I was going to distract myself from it. And the third ends up being after you've gone through those two steps I just mentioned, the third step is that of time will come when there's enough healing, well, you can begin to open yourself up to new possibilities, because, you know, life will not return to what it was before, after many serious losses. And so, you know, we do have to find a way to make a pivot and start to think of well, how are we going to build this new life, which, you know, take some time.Hannah Choi 37:15So, if someone has a set a sudden traumatic loss, and they haven't read your book, and they have and they, and they, you know, don't you know, know, these steps, or they don't know even where to start, where is a good place to start for people.37:32You know, in the book, I do have a chapter or more where I talk about the nuts and bolts of what you can do. And I think you know, it's really important to know that there isn't one shoe that fits everybody here, we are all very different. And we are looking for some vehicle that allows us to relax enough to get back in touch with disturbing thoughts and emotions, disturbing emotions and memories. Now, you know, for me, it was journaling and journaling. Writing is uniquely well suited to this. But there is mentioned in a moment, many other options. The reason why journaling and writing is uniquely suited is because you are, it's very personal. You can write in a more raw way, when you're writing, knowing nobody else will see this. Because in the end, I wrote a book and put it all in there. That wasn't what I was thinking when I was writing. So they never still doesn't make me comfortable. But you know, when you are writing that you're writing only for yourself and think about it. You can go to a counselor or therapist, you can speak to a dear friend, you can speak to an important clergyman in your church or synagogue or mosque you can you can do all those things. But in every one of those cases, you are sharing something deeply personal with others. And you know what? We all censor ourselves. Yeah, it's only natural and we not you know, who would lay it all out there for somebody to hear we are all censor ourselves. So when you write, you can write just for yourself. You can. It's very difficult to be honest with yourself that you can try your best to be honest with yourself that you can get it on paper, as imperfect as it is. And again, another unique part of writing is that you couldn't go back a week later a day You later a year later and read what you wrote, and annotated and continue to improve it, you know, I find that most people find you go back and read your own words and go, you know, I was, that's only part of the story. And because it teases out more Yeah. And then you can annotate now more. So that's why I think writing is really super. But there are many, many others, you know, there are so many creative outlook outlets. And I think we can think about those creative outlets that people have, whether it's music, or art, dance, all of these outlets are ways that people are expressing themselves and could find it. And it's a way it's kind of a portal into your deepest thoughts. So, all of that, and of course, faith based practices, meditation and other contemplative practices. It goes on and on. Another important source that we shouldn't overlook is getting out in the natural environment. You know, we tend to understate that, but we can all I think, relate to time how often you find yourself if you take a simple walk, or you know, you're you're seeing some beautiful mountains, you're sitting by a lake, you're at the beach, and how it how transforming it is to your thoughts. Yeah. And when you're going through a terrible time, after emotional trauma, that's a ripe moment for you to not only feel like you can exhale, but that you can relax enough to connect with thoughts that otherwise would be inaccessible. The hardest part really is looking in the mirror and understanding ourselves enough to know how to proceed. You know, I'd be the first one to tell you that when I was going through a terrible time, I was not resourceful. Again, getting back to executive function. Now. I was not resourceful. You know, it was like, years later, when I wrote the book, and people are then contacting me from different organizations and podcasts and web, web websites, and so forth. And I went, Oh, my God, there's like an endless array of resources. And I felt totally isolated. And you know, here I am a researcher, I have no difficulty looking things up. But at the time, it was not accessible to me. And I know that's true of others, because everyone has told me.Hannah Choi 42:59Yeah, yeah. I heard I heard, I listened to a podcast that you were on. With a woman who has a podcast about grief, and my working memory is my biggest executive function challenge. So I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, on that you were talking about how how the brain can actually make it so that you don't see objects that are maybe related to the to the person that you lost, or the trauma that you went through. And I thought that was so fascinating, and how that real fat right there for me really shows you that it is your brain. Your your brain. Oh, Dear Life, maybe? Sorry, just came to me, then. Yeah.Dr. Lisa Shulman 43:50Yeah, yeah, I think we should review some of the specific cognitive responses, or effects on cognition. And one of them is what you're talking about, you know, the, you can picture the we're talking before about how the brain is perceiving. This is a threat to our survival. So there are a vast number of protective reflexes and responses that are being activated. And we talked I talked already about many of the physical ones. But from a psychological or emotional standpoint, the brain is in an emotional, protective crouch all the time, which is going to serve to shield us from disturbing triggers disturbing things in our environment. And we have a whole host of psychological defense mechanisms that we all learn long ago, like dissociation, repression, denial and so forth, that are kicked into high gear. It's a subconscious reef. So we're not, we're not deciding we're going to behave that way we don't know that those reflexes are in, I've been kicked off. And this can, as you say, result in literal holes in your perspective or your your vision. And the one that you described to occurred in my life, which was that something as, obviously concrete, as my husband's cell phone, his iPhone, was sitting on our desk. And I mean, not just months, it could have been years, a long time went by, where I just didn't even know, I never saw it. Or I didn't. There was a proper word, I didn't allow myself to see it. You know, but someone actually, in the house, saw it and pointed it out. I had, like, I was shocking to me, it was shocking. I thought, My gosh, it's specific all along. And I chose to ignore it, such that it was a literal hole in my visual field. Yeah. That was just your how, how incredibly strong and powerful these things are, you know, somebody who originally described a dissociation dissociate, described dissociation is fundamental to emotional trauma. And so dissociation is a really important part of this. And my book goes into this in some depth. Resulting in that when you are confronting disturbing stressors in your environment, that your mind has this incredible protective response of just kind of turning off, or shielding you from recognizing what you saw just getting, you know, it might put you in a place for a few seconds or moments where you are, you're basically detached from your environment. Or it might be more mild than that. There can be these interruptions of awareness, it fragments, your memory, because you're having periods of the day where this is occurring, it's causing flashbacks, you can become increasingly emotionally numb, because you're not being open to everything that's really in your environment all the time. So it's a very big part of why many of us feel like something has changed fundamentally, after loss.Hannah Choi 47:53Yeah. It's, and and it's interesting that how you said it, it really just comes back to survival and protecting ourselves.48:05Right! I mean, it's a, it's actually we have to think about it as a very effective strategy that the brain is employing. In other words, if, when, when we have, if we have, you know, horribly, a terrible tragedy or catastrophe occur, we remain able to function and survive. Yeah, it would be possible that we were wired in such a way that we were not able to survive, that, you know, we that you could not function, you could not make a meal, you could not dress yourself, you could not you'd be in such a way, but he said no, the truth is, and I really want to get to this, which is that we're talking about executive function and cognition after trauma. And number one, you can remain extremely high functioning in the face of cognitive change, we are not talking about somebody developing the dementia and being unable to perform their daily activities. Speaking for myself, even in the worst of this, I was seeing patients, writing papers, writing grants, doing everything Yeah. So it just shows you how these things can be quite segregated. Another important point is that the cognitive changes are not across all domains and not across all parts of executive function that you know, as well as I that executive function has many different components. You know, what I'd like to really point to that I think is not discussed enough. And I'm really interested in your thoughts on this, Hannah. You I believe that something that's overlooked a lot is cognitive flexibility.Hannah Choi 50:08I am right there with you.Dr. Lisa Shulman 50:12So, you know, I think that during, after trauma, trauma after emotional trauma, cognitive flexibility takes a big hit for a long time, I imagine. And I just wonder, you know, how do you come across that in your own work?Hannah Choi 50:29I mean, I, I think I really believe that cognitive flexibility is that and metacognition, just understanding how we think and why we think and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do, I think those two together are, for me, what I see in my clients and in myself and in others are the most of the two most important, because without that cognitive flexibility, especially I imagine with when you when your life experiences such a great shift, and such a great change. And like you said before, life is not going to go back to how it was before, that cognitive flexibility is probably going to be the answer to finding new ways of doing your life now. And finding happiness and success. I mean, I can't think of another executive function that is going to be more helpful than that. 51:31And really, at the heart of, you know, being able to be successful, because, you know, it runs from the sublime to the ridiculous, you know, if somebody does, for example, reach out for or tries, I was talking before about all the kinds of methods that one strategies one could try, if someone does begin on say, Okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to find a counselor, I'm going to go to a support group. And, and that doesn't have the proper chemistry, or it just doesn't feel like it's being helpful to you for some reason, you know, if you don't have cognitive flexibility and resourcefulness, you know, that it's pretty much a dead end for somebody, rather than saying, Oh, well, you know, there's 10 other ways to do this. The so I mean, that's the sublime, the ridiculous part of it can be that you can literally find yourself doing things in incredibly robotic ways. When you are in a going through a period of terrible emotional trauma, where things are being done the way they were always done very automatically, and you get kind of fixed in the spot. And then when hopefully, you do become more healed and have more insight and cognitive flexibility, you know, like, it's like, one day you think, we're gonna say, you know, I'm doing these three steps, and there's a way to do this one step, why don't I see that all? You know, and, you know, I mean, for those who have experienced the loss of a loved one, I mean, there are some of these things that are so common. The simple example I've spoken to many people, is, if you if it's somebody that you know, a partner, that you find yourself going to the supermarket and buying all the same foods, even though that person is no longer home, you are in thinking I want to buy this in honor of the memory of the lost loved one, you just automatically are buying in and you're stocking your pantry and the things that you don't ordinarily use takes actually a fair amount of time to you wake up to the fact that you're doing that. Another one I talked about on a BBC broadcast is that people oftentimes describe preparing foods that their loved ones preferred, not what they prefer, they prefer it right, right. Again, it's not something that you plan out, you're just automatically doing it. And it takes it sometimes you then in a robotic, you're doing it and you're doing it and you're doing it and you don't have the cognitive flexibility to go this is what's happening and maybe I don't need, you know, five boxes of that.Hannah Choi 54:33Yeah. And it just it really shows you that we are our habits. We are the that like you said, you know, like that, that our brains have been wired that way. So we think that way,54:45You know, one of the things I'll I'll pointed to other examples in the cognitive sphere or to other issues. One is the inattention And we talked about the dissociation and how we results in this loss of awareness and so forth. And, you know, people who have suffered serious emotional trauma are have been found to be quite vulnerable to accidents. And this is a very, it's a significant problem, you know, more falling, more car accidents, just accidents. And, you know, I read about that, but you know, I will just say, again, from pointing to my personal experience, you know, in the year following my husband's death, I fell and broke my ankle. And I was in three car accidents, fortunately, fender benders. And then since then none of that this is almost the 10th year anniversary of his death. I mean, it shows you that there is some cognitive change that you are not as alert to your environment.Hannah Choi 56:07Yeah, yeah, well, it makes sense. And I just did an episode on ADHD. And in my research, I found that people with ADHD, who struggle with attention are also more prone to accidents, car accidents and injuries.Dr. Lisa Shulman 56:23So that also also totally makes sense. Yeah. And like, the final point I don't want to overlook is the impact of our bio rhythms. And, you know, many of us know that we are either you know, morning larks or night owls. And that's just a very fixed part of our genetics. That's not something you can change. And so when you are, you know, you don't you have minimal or no reserve after emotional trauma. So therefore, from the standpoint of cognition, think about if you are, are you a morning Lark or a night owl?Hannah Choi 57:05Well, I am a night owl, I am fighting fighting that right now. I'm trying really hard to become a morning Lark. I'm a little better, but I'm trying to fake it till I make it but it's not happening.57:21So, you know, if you have are in a bad way, with minimal to no cognitive reserve, and you're you should just be aware, well, you know, if you are that morning for you, Hannah, is not going to be the optimum time for you to try to do a serious cognitive task. Right, right. Because you have to two things that are going on. And so why you why even fight it.Hannah Choi 57:53And that's so much of what what I do in my coaching is help helping people figure out when is the best time of day for you to do different things. And you know, when when are you going to be most successful, when is not a great time to try something new or even to try something challenging? Yeah, just becoming aware, learning that learning about ourselves and, and knowing that,58:16I mean, I think it has a lot to do with something important that my husband taught me, which is about being forgiving to yourself. And, you know, I think that all of us, and maybe women even more than men, you know, are, you know, filled with angst and second thoughts and remorse, recrimination, and you know, like, especially for people who are going through terrible times, after traumatic losses, it's very important to know, go gentle with yourself and think, you know, I'm doing my best. And I'm I going to keep on working on this. And sometimes, I'm going to have a longing to regress, sometimes I'm going to really handle something poorly, I'm going to make a poor decision. And that we should go well, I'm going to be forgiving to myself, because I'm going through a hard time and I'm going to learn from this and try again. I think that that's a very important part of it. And on the small side of it in terms of what you were just saying the day to day side of it. You know, you might sit down and think okay, I've set aside this time to do what I called before the subconscious conscious integration, the grief work, the inner work, and you might sit down and it might be very unsuccessful. You just simply can't find you can't find your rhythm like you had on another day? Well, I mean, it's good to acknowledge that it just go well, no, for some reason. For whatever reason, this is not the right time for me. Yeah, I'm gonna do something else. And tomorrow's another day.Hannah Choi 1:00:15yeah. We always talk about how you can't listen to those shoulds. You have to, you know, be gentle with yourself and, and do what's right in the moment. Is there anything else that you can think of? Did you want to go back to your three steps? Was there anything that you wanted to expand on there?Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:00:32You know, I think that, you know, one thing that I would say that can be quite confusing, is when we talk about this idea of subconscious conscious integration, the work to integrate, and reconnect the emotional response to the cognitive functions. And then we refer to that second step of immersion and distraction, I think one of the things that can be confusing, and is to me about exactly how to talk about it, is that the balance between the kinds of things that calm us down, and will be a source of distraction. And the kinds of things that will calm us down and enable us to do the hard work of Yeah, of reconnection of subconscious conscious integration. And that I think, can be a source of confusion. And we sort of all have to find our own balance there. And maybe identify times that are ripe, to even even if it's for a short moment, you know, say for example, in the ways we were talking before, that you might be out in a natural environment, and you feel a sense of relief, and you feel like you can think more clearly. And in that moment, a memory might drift back to you. That is maybe a sad, a sad memory. It's a sad memory. But you see, it just became accessible to you, because you had relaxed enough for that purpose. Yeah. And now, you know, one doesn't have to feel compelled to do some work around that, because you've already accomplished something, like doing that, or feeling feeling sad about it isn't necessarily enough to feel like that's a regression. It's instead, as you go through that, and you in the way we talked about self efficacy, developing confidence in yourself, that you go through, you have that moment, and you might reflect and feel sorrow. And then you go back to maybe what you were doing, and you have just had an experience where you succeeded in the face of you didn't have, you know, a break and emotional breakdown, you didn't weren't triggered, the fight or flight mechanism wasn't triggered to its nth degree, you instead had a moment of sorrow and you went through it, which is different than what would have happened before. That's, that's a success.Hannah Choi 1:03:43Yeah. And that that makes me think back to when you were talking about journaling and how, how when you when you like say, you wrote that down that you find that you this used to happen before and now this now this happens. You can look and see that that evidence that evidence of growth and progress and how that must be really empowering and and give you and bolster that self efficacy that is so helpful in getting through.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:04:14Yes, and you know, that you're able to acknowledge is that it's a healthy mind to be able to acknowledge that that was a beautiful important part of me. It's not here anymore, you're honoring it. I mean, you you'd give anything to go back and have that person back or undo that traumatic event. But this really refers to the important field of post traumatic growth and how you achieve that. There you with time, you know, we have well, another favorite phrase is Time heals all wounds. isn't enough for most people, not everybody, but for most people, time will result in a lot of healing after traumatic loss. But if one doesn't go through the steps that we're talking about here, to reverse those bad neuroplastic changes in the brain access suppressed memories and emotions, excuse me, access suppressed memories and emotions. If you don't go through those steps, you are blocked from ever growing as fully for your to potential as you could write, you will improve, but you will be blocked from the full potential that you have,Hannah Choi 1:05:50because of the way that your brain is responding.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:05:54Because you have never you continue to have suppressed memories and emotions that your brain has to continually protect you from. Yeah, right. No, another way we can refer to this, in terms of cognition, and it's important is that when when the when the brain is functioning in that protective mode, the fight or flight, the acute responses, the chronic effects, everything we talked about, it uses up a lot of brain power, a lot of real estate in the brain is being used up to, to shield me from seeing that iPhone, that's not just happening on its own, some portion of the brain is keeps on going, you know, alert to say no to that thing. You know, there's a part of the brain that keeps on doing that over and over. And how can that ever be compatible with full healing and optimum cognitive function? Yeah, it's not possible. No. And it's, it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong process. It's not as if anybody is ever going to be at the end of that process. We keep on identifying things that are disturbing, and then you have to work through it again.Hannah Choi 1:07:38Which gives you that what gives you the ability to move out of what you said before that the feeling of hopelessness, and there's concrete things that you can do. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your talking with me. And it's fascinating and difficult to talk about at the same time.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:08:05No, it's like anything else. So like we just said, it was very difficult to talk about it in the beginning. And now I've talked about it a lot. No longer difficult, and I really enjoyed my time with you.Hannah Choi 1:08:18Thank you. And that is our show for today. Be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about today's topic. And thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found some peace and maybe some answers in my conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman. Help us help others to learn more about executive function skills. Please share our podcasts with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated Executive Producer of "The Disruptors," the first comprehensive documentary about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and its effect on kids, adults, and their families. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nancy to have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD and why she wanted to create a comprehensive film to help dispel the myths around ADHD and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits.When you view the film, you may notice a star-studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician Will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. The film also features Dr. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and New York Times best-selling author, who's helped lead the charge on ADHD awareness for decades. If you’re listening before January 26, 2023, you can watch The Disruptors for free! (Info in the show notes) Show Notes:Learn more about “The Disruptors”Watch “The Disruptors” for free! Use code TDB-BBS. Available from 1/19/23 - 1/26/23. If you're reading this after January 26th, 2023, click here to find out how to watch.Learn more about Nancy ArmstrongDownload our free ADHD success kitContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:20Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated executive producer of a documentary film called The Disruptors. This film is all about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, and how it can affect kids, adults and their families. I got to sit down with Nancy and have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD, and about why she wanted to do something to help people learn about it, dispel myths about it and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits, even though the name might make you think otherwise. When you view the film, you'll see a star studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and author shares both his expertise on ADHD and also his personal experience living with it. Even though these people are all famous, their stories are presented in a way that is just so relatable and real to the rest of us. Gosh, you guys, this documentary is really special. Even before I talked with Nancy, I could tell that it was made with the love and attention a topic like this deserves and just hadn't been given yet. Our Podcast Producer, Sean Potts, says he deeply wishes that he had had the opportunity to watch this when he was younger. That film is powerful message is that yes, having ADHD creates challenges and frustration for people. But ADHD is much more than those challenges and frustrations. Many of the very good things in our world are here because of people with ADHD, who had the creativity, the curiosity and the energy to create them. Watching the film. And hearing this message throughout, it reminded me so much of the clients that I've worked with, who have ADHD, and who have created systems to manage the challenges and work to discover the positive sides. So I am so proud and happy to share Nancy's work with you. And I hope you get a chance to watch after listening to our conversation today. And guess what? If you're listening before January 26, 2023, go to the show notes and click on the link to register for access to view The Disruptors for free. There's a code that you'll need to enter to watch. So make sure you get that you can find that listed in the show notes too. If you're listening after January 26. Keep listening to the episode to hear Nancy share where you can find the film or just look in the show notes for those links. Okay, here we go. Hannah Choi 03:19Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for joining me today. My thanks for having me. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Nancy Armstrong 03:26Sure. I'm Nancy Armstrong. I'm the executive producer of the disruptors.Hannah Choi 03:30I just want to tell all of our listeners that you should absolutely watch this documentary, it was just excellent. It made me laugh. It made me smile. It brought tears to my eyes. And it just made me feel so much hope for people with ADHD and their parents. So thank you for for making it.Nancy Armstrong 03:50Thank you for saying that. That means the world to me.Hannah Choi 03:52Oh, good. So tell me the story of how did you end up being the executive producer of an ADHD documentary? Nancy Armstrong 04:00Well, I have three children with ADHD. And my son was definitely my firstborn. And the most challenging. We sort of figured out very early on something unusual was going on with him. We couldn't figure out what it was. He seemed normal, but also incredibly active to the point of us getting kicked out of Mommy and Me class at when he was a toddler. So there were a bunch of signs in the beginning, and we couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then finally, at age eight, he was diagnosed after going through a round of tests, he was diagnosed with ADHD. And that was great that we understood it finally, but that was kind of the beginning of our journey, learning how to manage it, learning how to treat it. Also in that same office, my husband raised his hand and said I have all those symptoms. And the doctor said well, it's genetic. So that was the beginning of our journey and and it was just incredibly difficult going through the K through 12 system and also I had this idea that well, my husband has it. And he was very successful. He had all of the challenges of ADHD. But he also had some pretty impressive, impressive strengths that I didn't even tie to ADHD until I met Ned Hallowell, and talked to him about my son. And he also met my husband, Tim. And he said, Well, you know, all those strings are ADHD too. And we just kind of went, what that's there, everything is tied together. So that was the beginning. And I thought, Man, there should be a documentary on this. And so for 10 years, I waited for someone to make this documentary, and they never made it. And so finally, in 2018, I quit my job and decided to make the film because I knew it could help so many people, not only in this country, but around the world. And that we finally had to reframe ADHD from this deficit disorder model, to something that is two sides of a coin, on the one hand challenges but on the other hand, incredible strengths. And if you can maximize those, it can be a huge asset.Hannah Choi 06:00I really loved how, how Ned in in the documentary talked about how, like, let's look at the challenges and then flip them over and see what the what the positive of all of those challenges are. And, and I really loved how he worded that I love him. He's so great. Yeah.Nancy Armstrong 06:19Symptoms, you know, it's like every, for every symptom, that is an impediment. Distractibility, impulsivity and hyperactivity, you know, with Ned's analysis is you flip each one of those on its head, and you get a positive. And if you can learn to accelerate those positives, then the negatives will be less prominent, you'll you'll be motivated to be on time to get organized and to do all those things, because you'll want to accelerate your gifts.Hannah Choi 06:48Yes, yes, absolutely. And I see that a lot in the clients that I work with as, as an executive function coach, not not all of my clients have ADHD, but the ones that that do, I do notice that when they start to figure that out, they are much more motivated to start using tools and strategies, because they're excited about all these other things that I that I can take advantage of and make happen, it becomes maybe easier to do that. And then it's more, it's less challenging and more rewarding.Nancy Armstrong 07:18Yeah, and the more the world understands it that way, rather than looking at a child with ADHD and saying, Oh, you're disorganized, your homeworks not turned in, you're late, you know, all the all of these challenges to be to be addressed in a different way of, Oh, you're very curious, you're very creative, you have a lot of ideas, you have boundless energy, and to sort of approach it that way, and will work on your challenges is much more positive way to go through your formative years, and I think can make a huge difference in outcomes.Hannah Choi 07:49Absolutely. And with that confidence, it bringing that confidence piece in if you can not look at it, like from a deficit viewpoint, then that confident you're able to build that confidence back and, and or maybe not build it back, but just build it. And, and then, and then they can go so much farther with that. Yeah, I really like how, how it was addressed in the documentary that unfortunately, it ADHD is named, it brings up the deficit within the name, which is a shame, it's too bad to can't be named something else with the positive in there instead.Nancy Armstrong 08:26And we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, I really tried. Why the will, I am said, Ada. I have my friend Kenny Dichter, who's in the film calls it a 10 Attention Deficit advantage, but really, it's not an it's a deficit of attention. It's really an abundance of attention going in too many directions. So the name is, you know, not only trivializes the diagnosis, but it's also kind of incorrect.Hannah Choi 08:51Yeah, I feel like it kind of has, its what typical society, the systems within the society needs, it needs you to in order to function smoothly and properly, it needs you to be able to focus with the appropriate amount on one thing at a time. And so it's it's harder to fit into that system that's, that's built. My family and I were talking about it about it yesterday, and we were saying, and one of my clients said this, too, he you know, he said people with ADHD, and I think it came up with the the son of the boy who likes to go fishing. I can't remember his injuries, maybe a Hogan. Yeah. You know, he, like he they were saying like if he didn't he wasn't living in today's world, then it wouldn't have been a problem. It would have been like a really great benefit. Because and that's what my clients said. He's like, if you're out in the, you know, in the bush, you want someone with ADHD because they're going to notice everything, and they're going to be able to pay attention.Nancy Armstrong 09:54Well, that's why people with ADHD are more suited to certain kinds of careers, you know? With high stimulation, so firefighters, ER doctors, you know, newsroom producers, they need environments with a ton of stimulation. It doesn't stress them out, like it might stress out a neurotypical person, it turns them on. So we tried to get as many people in the film in those kinds of careers, you know that we have many, many, well known people from different walks of life, that have used ADHD to their advantage while still managing the downsides. And they all talked about how tough it was going through school growing up. But then they've kind of turned that corner and realized what they were good at. And we're able to accelerate that into an incredible career.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, I love the variety of people that you had, how did you connect well, with all of them? Nancy Armstrong 10:46Some of them we knew. As soon as we got, you know, Hall of Fame astronaut, Scott Kelly on board, you know, everyone wants to be part of that group. So it was extremely helpful when he said yes, and will.i.am said yes right away. So that was incredible and a lot of people. Honestly, Howie Mandel just said, I think it's important. I think this is an important film. So I was surprised at how many people said yes, but I think it was because they knew what the mission of the film was. And they want to reframe ADHD once and for all, and because the world has it wrong, and we need to get it right.Hannah Choi 11:22 Yes, yes, I agree. I interviewed Bob Shea, who's a children's author who has ADHD. And he felt the same way. He was really happy to talk about his challenges. He was diagnosed as an adult, he was really happy to talk about his challenges, because he is for the same reason. Yeah. So did creating the documentary change anything for ADHD, about ADHD? For you, I mean, your experience change? Nancy Armstrong 11:46Well, I think it's funny. First of all, I will say the experiences are all universal. And that was really surprising to me that as we interviewed all of these families, it was the same story of our family. So it is interesting, it's a real community and the same story of all the public personalities that spoke so everyone has had this sort of shared universal experience that they don't know, it feels very isolating, like, you're the only one going through it. And you're the only one having this experience. But it's actually very universal among 10% of the population. So you're not alone. But also how difficult it is, even when you know, what it is and how it works and what you can do to help you still, as a parent, fall down every once in a while, and there's a lot of parental guilt. You know, in fact, while I was in the middle of making the film, my 16 year old daughter said to me, "You're making a film on this, and you still don't get it". And I thought, Oh, interesting. Wow, every day, and I'll still say, the dumb thing of like, What do you mean you missed 10 homework assignments, you didn't turn it? What are you doing, like, you know, it's not intentional, it's just, that's what happens. And you have to put systems in place to help them and, you know, try to avoid situations like that, but they're going to happen, that's just the nature of growing up with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:04And, and that brings back the how important it is for parents and people to learn about ADHD so that they can recognize maybe something is going on, that their child could get help with earlier than later. The the story of Zara really just broke my heart, my heart went out to her mother, she, she's seems like it was really painful for her to remember back to before she knew that her daughter had ADHD. And just thinking, you know, there's so many families out there that are going through or have gone through that.Nancy Armstrong 13:37Oh, yeah, the story is so relatable. I mean, people have told me they watch the film, and they cry through the whole thing. Which is, means it's hitting a nerve, a very universal corner, particularly of parental guilt. And same things I should say, because these kids will really push you to the brink of your sanity and patience. Because there really, there's a relentlessness about so many kids with ADHD that is hard to parent. But I think it's so healing for parents to watch the film. And so healing for kids to watch the film to know that it's not just them. And this is the way your brain is wired. And it's okay. It will be challenging growing up, but you can harness it and make a great life for yourself.Hannah Choi 14:20 Yeah, it's yeah, it's beautiful. It really is a beautiful message in there. And you brought up the brain. I love that you had an explanation of the brain and how that works. And I've noticed in my work with people, when they find out how their brain works and how their brain causes them to do or not do things really, really helps. It really helps to just understand and feel better about it.Nancy Armstrong 14:44I thought it was important to show the brain science behind this because there is so much confusion, particularly this myth that ADHD doesn't exist. So I wanted to blow right through that with the brain science showing exactly how the brain works. Where ADHD is, you know In the brain, and you know how it's working in the brain, and also to show if people decide to use stimulant medication as one of the tools, what that's actually doing in the brain and how for people with ADHD, if there's no high that they get, it only calms them down. I mean, that's a critical thing to understand is that people with ADHD takes stimulant medication, there's no euphoria, it just brings them there, their dopamine is here, and it brings it to here. You know, with a person who is not ADHD, they're no normal dopamine level then shoots up. That's why they're getting a high because they're having something unnaturally high in their brain. So that's important to understand. And I understand there's, you know, there's an Adderall shortage, it probably it's either supply chain, or it has to do with the fact that too many doctors, regular doctors, like primary care physicians, or pediatricians are just writing prescriptions for pushy parents of kids who haven't been properly diagnosed. And that's a problem we need to solve. But that has no relationship to people who have been diagnosed properly with ADHD and need that medication because it's making a huge difference in helping them live a better life.Hannah Choi 16:13Yeah, and that's another reason why understanding that brain science is so important to help people understand that the medication is not you know, like how the medication works. Once you understand how it works, it's a lot easier to understand why someone would take it because it really does sound like quite contradictory. Why would I give stimulant medication to someone who already has a lot of energy? So but when you understand how the brain works, then it makes sense. Yeah. So in addition to that, which what are some key takeaways that you feel are really important for parents to and parents and educators? Right, and just people in the world that interact with other people that might have ADHD? What can they take away from your film?Nancy Armstrong 16:56Well, one of the messages of the film is if we could just help people understand in broader society, that these are imaginative, creative beings, that just need a little more support to get on the right track. And I'm talking mostly about children who really struggle because, you know, the very nature of a sort of assembly line, rote approach to education is anathema to the ADHD brain. So if you have children in your class that are late that are not turning in homework, it might make sense to investigate what's going on, rather than just writing them off as a bad kid. Maybe this is a child with ADHD, maybe the parents, no, maybe they don't. But as soon as you understand those children in your class that have ADHD, you can approach them differently. And there's a relationship that can happen between a teacher and a child that makes a world of difference. If the teacher writes the child off, the child knows, and they give up, and there's, that's the end of that, that's the end of eighth grade science. That's it. Or if the child can have understanding from the teacher, if the teacher can say, Okay, I know you have ADHD, so I know these things are going to be difficult for you. But these things are going to be easier for you. So let's make sure we're focusing on your strengths and some of your challenges. And that's a that creates a relationship. And, you know, I remember my son had a Spanish teacher freshman year in high school, who was so determined for him to succeed. He just said, I know you can do it, I know you can do it. And my son felt sort of an obligation to that teacher, to prove him not prove him wrong, you know, so the teachers can have an incredibly positive impact on children. And I think to empower teachers with that knowledge is a huge takeaway. And then I think for parents, you also have an incredible responsibility and ability to have such a positive impact on your child, if you can control your response to them, which is incredibly difficult day in and day out. Everyday is Groundhog Day, what we just talked about yesterday is now happening again today, as if yesterday never happened. So it does require Herculean patience, and that's a good thing to develop in life anyway for an adult way. But, you know, just love your child, even when they're, you know, really behaving badly is to just love them through those moments. You'll feel like a better person, you'll feel like a superstar person if you can do that. And your child will fare so much better under those circumstances. So I think that the the message is like parents are kind of the childhood cure for ADHD because without parents by your side fighting for you advocating for you, loving you, it's really hard to get through.Hannah Choi 19:39And I love that that message came through really strongly with the families that you interviewed the parents. You could tell they they just love their children so much and just we're trying so hard to to help them and and their hearts are just breaking for them. It was it was very moving. It was very, very moving to watch that. Nancy Armstrong 20:01Oh, thank you. And I see that in school, we do screenings, we've done screenings all over the country. And the parents, we do q&a, usually afterwards. And parents cry through that q&a. I mean, it's the same pain. It's so universal. And you know, it's interesting, they're doing, I just read, they're doing a screening in Ireland, they, so there's a screening in Ireland, and they're doing a q&a Afterward, I won't be there. But it's just amazing that all over the world, the screenings are happening, and people are having this new conversation about ADHD and, and finding community, which I think is so important. I've never had one public conversation about it, until I made the film. And, you know, the film was like a forum for those conversations.Hannah Choi 20:44Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that is exactly why I'm doing this conversation. This, that's exactly why I'm doing this podcast is to have more of these conversations. And hopefully, even just one person hears the conversation and recognizes that it's okay to talk about and that it's helpful to talk about it. And it's helpful to find the community and, and, actually, that's something that that that you guys brought up in the documentary was how important it is to try to reach people because there are services and there are support supports and information and knowledge and, you know, family support and child support and medication support. But helping people learn about that and get access to that is, is the hard part. And so thank you for doing the work that you're doing and why I do what I do. Nancy Armstrong 21:36So, yeah, yeah, that's another thing that's really concerns me is that there, there's a dearth of ADHD experts in the country and around the world. So one of the things I think we really need to do is have more training for primary care physicians, more training for pediatricians, because they don't have the requisite amount of training to really deal with this. And they're going to have to because there won't, in the absence of experts, it will fall to them. And we saw in the film, you know, Bear's pediatrician told his mother to cut Concerta in half. And Concerta is a time release medication. So you can't cut time release medication in half. Bear was given a whole day's worth of, of a methylphenidate because of cutting that in one shot because of cutting that medication in half. So that's unacceptable, you know, primary care physicians prescribing this medication need to know how to prescribe it, and how to tell parents to use it because they don't know it's up to the doctors, and they're obviously under trained.Hannah Choi 22:43Yeah. And Bear's mom was, you know, had the, the, the knowledge that there was someone else she could ask that she, you know, could get more information, but not everybody realizes that a lot of people, you know, have the experience, you know, where they, they either don't trust the doctor, so they don't look for more help. Or they, they just take the doctors word for it. And they don't realize like, oh, you can ask for more you can if it doesn't feel right, you can look for help elsewhere.Nancy Armstrong 23:14So I'm glad, or if one medication doesn't work, and that is a painful process is that trial and error process. If one doesn't work, there's another one that might and, you know, good for her for sticking it out and finding I think it was focalin that finally, like, just gave bare target symptom relief with no side effects. And he, you know, his life just got so much better because he was happier. You know, no child wants to be disruptive in class. They're not doing it on purpose. Their brains are wired differently. And they're telling them to move when they're supposed to sit still. They're telling them to speak when they're supposed to be quiet. So getting that support is incredibly valuable to child because children just want to go to school every day and fit in. It's like going to school every day where everyone has blue paint, and you show up with yellow paint. It's a horrible feeling. I mean, you know, my son now is 21. But he just recalls how despairing he was how bereft he was at having that experience every day and how hopeless it made him feel. Even though we were on top of it, even though we were supporting him. It's still like they're going there for eight hours a day. And if they feel that they're out of step the entire time. That's got to be a terrible feeling.Hannah Choi 24:29Yeah, and that early, early, early experience of that, you know, all those experiences that we have, create those connections in our brains and then to unlearn those feelings about yourself and to unlearn the your expectations of how people are going to react to you. And that's that is a lifelong process. I mean, regardless of your if whether you have ADHD or not like the things that happen to us as children, you know, it's stuff we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. Nancy Armstrong 25:00They make lasting, you know, they make indelible marks on your psyche. And, you know, the other thing with kids is because they miss social cues because they're a little out of step socially. They get bullied, kids with ADHD are bullied two times more than kids without ADHD, and more than half of kids with ADHD are bullied. And that is a terrible thing to have to overcome, you know, and leaves lasting damage. And so even though I was a parent who was pretty on top of it, I mean, it was very unpopular in my town, because just golf parents up, I mean, I was pretty relentless. Trying to stop it, and you know, why would stop one and another one would pop up. But, you know, it's still it still leaves a lasting mark on their emotional development.Hannah Choi 25:46Yeah. And that brings up the importance of, of, you know, reaching out if, and getting therapy and therapy to help develop strategies to get you through your day, but also therapy to help, you know, with those emotions that come along with, like, not fitting in to, to what society expects people to, to act like. I imagined that that's really helpful. I was glad that you guys address that in the document in the documentary, and coaching as well. Is that Nancy Armstrong 26:16Yeah, very important. I mean, there's a toolbox of things that can really help manage ADHD. And I don't think the film doesn't advocate for any one of them. More specifically, it's really a multi pronged approach that is, is, you know, the best prescription for managing ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:33Yeah, absolutely. So, as an executive function, coach, I'm, you know, always curious about how you have challenges affect different people, what areas of executive function challenge you?Nancy Armstrong 26:46Well, I don't have ADHD, I think I grew up with it, I think I'm one of there's like, 25, there's 25%, or 30% of people who have symptoms in childhood, but outgrow them when their brain reaches full maturity. And my brain didn't really reach full maturity until I was 30. So that's kind of another sign of ADHD or we lag behind. But my husband definitely still has it, both the positives and the negatives. And, as do my children, and I think the biggest one for adults, that is, details. It's those details and time management and, you know, those kinds of things. So I'm a compulsive list maker, you know, which is probably my way of overcompensating for, you know, the challenges I had in my, you know, childhood and 20s. Super organized now, like psychotically, organized basically swung the pendulum from total disorganization to militant organization. So I'm probably more regimented now as a as a reaction to being so unregimented.Hannah Choi 27:55Yeah, right. Right.Nancy Armstrong 27:57It's a coping. It's a coping skill.Hannah Choi 27:59Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a terrible my working memory is, is pretty atrocious. And so I am like, crazy about writing things down and making lists and resetting reminders. And it's still forget things here and there. But yeah, I think you have to, you kind of have to go to the other side. And with that comes, that comes with maturity, right? As we get older, we can recognize the value of doing those things. And it's harder when you're little. But I loved how the kids started to say it, like, especially Zara, she mentioned that she realized that, that working a little harder and try and doing different things to make things better for herself, really, really paying off in the long run, which I loved.Nancy Armstrong 28:40And, I think for adults, too. We had an adult female in the film, and I think it was really great to see how it affects an adult's life. You know, I think a lot of adults weren't diagnosed as children and then figure it out when they have children. Because otherwise I wouldn't figure it out. You know, if you're, if your children are, it's kind of when your kids get diagnosed, that you go, "Oh, that's exactly me, too". You know, my mother, I think had a pretty serious case of ADHD. We never understood what it was. And I think she felt bad about it for so much of her life, not knowing exactly why she was the way she was, but knowing she was different. And it was, you know, just it was what it was. So I think it's super helpful for people who think they may have ADHD. And it's to the degree to which it's really causing impairment in your life. Everyone forgets who he is, and, you know, forgets things every once in a while, but it's the degree to which it becomes untenable in your life and starts to really interfere with being successful.Hannah Choi 29:37Right? Yeah, I used to work at an office for students with disabilities at a community college. And so often, like our kids would come in to get tested for learning disabilities, or they would go to an outside source to get tested for ADHD. And their parents who would always come in or call or somebody say, oh, my gosh, I realize now that that's me, like I I finally have an explanation for why I have had challenges in my life. And so, yeah, it's it's wonderful to see adults figuring that out. Nancy Armstrong 30:07Yeah, I think it's a huge relief. Absolutely. You know, you know, as Eliza said, In the film, before she found out, you know, she, where she was diagnosed, she just thought she was terrible at adulthood. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's heartbreaking, very successful. She's very successful entrepreneur, but, you know, keeping all the details and time management and all those things were really a challenge for her but big picture thinking, and, you know, creating things she was great at.Hannah Choi 30:36Yeah, yeah, one of my clients. He's an adult who actually has graduated from coaching, but he was diagnosed at 33. And he's the same way, you know, just really great at the big, the big picture and harder with the details. And, and he said, it just explained everything for him in his life. And now he's just doing so great. And he, it's really wonderful to see the progress that he's made, figuring out how his brain works, and what works and what doesn't so. So is there anything else that you want to mention? Nancy Armstrong 31:17I want to tell people where to find the film. You can find the film on iTunes, Apple TV, Google Play YouTube, Amazon Prime and Vudu.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I've watched it on Amazon.Nancy Armstrong 31:28We can screen it at your schools. You know, I think we, we need to get this film in schools.Hannah Choi 31:35Absolutely. Yes, I will put all the information in the show notes for how they can find out more about screenings, and about the film itself, and the important message that it's sharing with everybody. Really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you're working on? Is this inspired you to do something else?Nancy Armstrong 31:59Right now I'm focusing on promoting the film. Whenever we, you know, reach the tipping point. It's not we're not there yet. So I want it to be ubiquitous. And I think it will be a sort of an evergreen film. I mean, we have the world's we follow a diverse number of families and, and have all these, you know, well known people speaking in the film, so I think this will be the film. And until it's out there everywhere. My work is not done.Hannah Choi 32:27Yeah. Oh, good. Great. Yes. It's, I just tell everyone, please go watch this movie, this documentary. It's, first of all, it's just so well made. It's so easy and enjoyable to watch. Heartbreaking at times. And so uplifting and full of hope at the end, and actually not even just at the end throughout. And I just, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. So thank you for that work.Nancy Armstrong 32:55Oh, well, I made the film with Atlas films. Director is Stephanie Soechtig and another producer, Kristen Lazar, and they are brilliant documentary filmmakers. And they've done, you know, a number of documentaries that have really taken a subject and turned it on its head, like, set up the Devil We Know, Under the Gun. So I was extremely excited when they said yes to working with me on this. And I think the film is is good as it is, in large part because of working with them. Hannah Choi 33:24Well, thank you so much, Nancy, for joining me today and sharing about your film and for continuing to do the work that you're doing to help people understand ADHD and understand people with ADHD it's so important to so thank you for doing it.Nancy Armstrong 33:38Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.Hannah Choi 33:43And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to learn more about The Disruptors. And as I mentioned before, beyond booksmart is offering free access to view the film through January 26 2023. So I really hope you get to take advantage of that. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Nancy inspiring, and that you get a chance to view the film. As Nancy aims to do with The Disruptors. We here at focus forward. I also hope to help as many people as we can with each episode. So please share our podcast with your colleagues and your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. And if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by sharing that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Whether it's the first day at daycare or preschool, the beginning of kindergarten, or the transition to middle or high school, sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. But for college, it can can be downright terrifying. According to both the experts and the people in my life, it’s the biggest leap of faith of all - especially these days with the high rates of depression and anxiety among college kids (both of which have doubled since 2014!) Luckily, there are people like Dr. Marcia Morris out there to support both our kids and ourselves. Marcia is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida and she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the university. Marcia and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives.Here are some resources related to the topic of college students' mental health.988 LifelineLearn More about Dr. Marcia MorrisMarcia’s websiteThe Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College StudentsPsychology Today BlogCollege Mental Health ResourcesHealthy Minds StudyHow Colleges Today Are Supporting Student Mental HealthStudent mental health is in crisis. Campuses are rethinking their approachBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health ChecklistTaking a Mental Health Leave from CollegeGap YearsTaking a Gap Year Before Grad SchoolTaking a Gap Year Before CollegeLearn More About Gap Years Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 0:04 Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges, and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Happy New Year, everyone. We made it through another year. And I have to say I am super excited about what's to come in 2023. I'm so glad you're here with me. And I hope you continue to find this podcast useful, and relatable and easy to listen to. We're always open to new topic ideas. So if you've got anything you'd like me to explore, please reach out. Sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. Their first day at daycare or preschool, when they start kindergarten, or transition to middle or high school. Both of my kids will be starting at new schools next year, high school for my daughter and middle school for my son. So you might want to check in on me and see how I'm doing later this fall. But I think the scariest is probably going to be when they head off to college. From what I hear from friends and family is that it's the biggest leap of faith that you'll take as a parent. And especially these days when we hear that the rates of depression and anxiety among college kids have doubled since 2014. And we have way too much access to news which can really make it seem like bad stuff is happening all the time, even though it's not. But luckily there are people like Dr. Marsha Morris out there. Marsha is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida. And she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the University. She's also written a book, which she'll talk about and she writes a blog as well. Marsha and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives. Before I dive into this important conversation, I want to share a critical resource that everyone needs to know about the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. This completely free service offers 24/7 Call, text and chat access to trained crisis counselors who can help people experiencing suicidal substance use and or mental health crisis or any other kind of emotional distress. People can also dial 988 If they are worried about a loved one who may need crisis support. Do not hesitate to reach out for help if you are struggling, or you suspect a loved one might be okay. Thank you for listening and now on to the show. Hi, Marcia. Thanks so much for joining me for today's episode.Marcia Morris, MD 3:06 I'm so glad to be here today, Hannah.Hannah Choi 3:09 Great I'm really looking forward to this conversation about supporting college kids. My kids are are not yet ready for school or college. My daughter's my eldest is in eighth grade. But I know it's gonna happen in a blink of an eye. So could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Marcia Morris, MD 3:26 Sure. My name is Dr. Marcia Morris. And I've worked as a college psychiatrist at the University of Florida for nearly 30 years. I became a college psychiatrist right after I finished my training. And I chose to work with university students because it's such an exciting age where so many changes are going on and people are finding out their path in life. So, but one thing that I've noticed over the years is it's kids are facing more challenges and having more mental health issues. And as a result of that, I'll mention a book I wrote for parents of college students called The Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College Students. It really takes a team you need providers, parents, professors to all help students be successful in school. And I write a blog for Psychology Today called College Wellness: Promoting Happiness and Health and the College Years. Again, for parents who can be great facilitators and helping college students have a joyful college experience.Hannah Choi 4:39 Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in Santa Barbara, California, back when I lived where it was warm year round, and, and and a lot of the work that we did was helping parents figure out how to best support their kids. And so I'm really excited to dive into that today with you. So good. Thanks. Thank you for joining me. So what are some, I mean, let's dive right in. What are some, what's some advice that you can give to parents who have kids that are heading off to college?Marcia Morris, MD 5:16 Well, I have a an expression that is, uses four Ts. It's tell, teach, talk and take action. And the tell part is really letting your kids know that you love them, you're there for them, you support them, they can call you any time. And it's really important to say that because kids say, Oh, I go into college, I should be totally on my own, but you're a good sounding board for them. So tell them you're available, you should teach them about some of the challenges that they could face, whether it's related to availability of substances, like alcohol, and kind of setting limits for themselves, but also teach them about mental health issues. Because unfortunately, rates of depression and anxiety are going up in college. And so you, if your child is experiencing this, you want them to get help as soon as possible. So talking openly about mental health is really important teaching them about that. Talk regularly. When you go, your child goes to college, or it could be like talking on the phone doing a video chat. I know there's a lot of texting going on. But there is value to having that either phone contact or face to face contact at least once a week, if not more the first year just to see how they're doing because it's a very...the first year is a pretty vulnerable time. And take action if you think something really bad is going on. And that could be visiting your child at the school if they just sound really bad. Well, that might be the last step. The first step might be saying, Hey, I'd like to speak with your RA and check in with them and maybe talk to both of you because I I'm concerned about you. But But things can, things can be really stressful and kids can get in a vulnerable place. And sometimes kids even stopped going to class. So it's if that's happening, if something seems like your child is very depressed, it's it's time for a visit to the school. So that's the take...you hope you that that doesn't happen. Or it might be a visit that weekend to check in. It may not be that dramatic, it might be Hey, you know, you sound like you're having a tough time. I'd love to just visit over the weekend and check in. I like that. Yeah, calling every day even if you're think someone's in a bad spot. Yeah,Hannah Choi 7:49 I like the story that you shared in your book about I think the girl was called Sarah. And just her experience, how her mom kind of went through that process that you just explained. And, and I and I really I liked, I liked hearing that story, because I felt like, I felt like she supported. She She helped her daughter both figure out how to solve it by herself and gave her some actual nice support for her as well. SoMarcia Morris, MD 8:20 right and you don't want you know, you might need to come and visit but you don't want to be there all the time. But it it it just there might be some moments in the college experience where students need more help. And hopefully, when that's happening, your student is already speaking with a therapist or a psychiatrist. And it's worthwhile encouraging your student to sign a HIPPA release of information form so that you can the you your child and the psychiatrist or the therapist can talk together and problem solving. Find out what's going to help your student get through their the crisis they might be experiencing.Hannah Choi 9:04 And do you do you ever find in your experience where the student doesn't want the parent involved but still needs that support?Unknown Speaker 9:16 Sometimes if someone's having a severe problem, they don't want the parents involved at the beginning. But I would say in almost all instances if things if they're not feeling better, they're more depressed, they're having trouble functioning. Most of the time they'll allow a family member or a friend and might not be the parent but they they will allow someone someone that that but so they might say oh I can handle this on my own I'm fine. And a year later they're still struggling. And they say yeah, let's call my... dad and get him involved. So but it's you can't force it on someone and legally the only way you can call a parent with about a student's consent is if there is an immediate risk of danger to self or others. And maybe twice in 30 years, I've done that it's such a rare event. And it has to be really important to talk with other people and get even legal counsel and make sure you're not overstepping the bounds of the law, because you really want to protect people's confidentiality. But most most students at some point, recognize you they can't go at it alone. If their depression is really bad, they need to involve someone else for support.Hannah Choi 10:33 Yeah. And so that, that makes me think that the importance of maintaining a good relationship with your child when they're away at school, and so how do you what do you suggest for parents for ensuring that happen? Unknown Speaker 10:49 Well, I have another acronym. It's love. Hannah Choi 10:54 Oh, I love it. Marcia Morris, MD 10:55 So the L is laugh and enjoy. And the point of that is, you have to have a good just have a fun relationship with your child, it's not always going to be fun, you're, you're not their best friend, you're still their parent, but But you have to have that enjoyment together, because they're not going to listen to you otherwise, right? You know, a show, there might be a show you watch together, if when they're home, take a walk together, it can't be all about, you need to do this. Hannah Choi 11:22 Yeah, you need to connect with them. Unknown Speaker 11:24 We right we have to have that initial kind of bond, this the bond makes sure there's that loving bond first before you can do anything other, otherwise, your kids aren't gonna want to listen to you. But anyways, the other thing that I think it's really important for parents to is, O, part of love observe. We can get very wrapped up in our kids, and we think they're the greatest thing on earth. And sometimes we don't see when they're having an issue or they're struggling with something, we want to think everything's good. And there are some parents who are negative and just find fault. But try to find that that happy medium of just seeing your kid seeing - Are they making friends at school? Are they Is it the end of freshman year, and they're still very lonely, and they haven't made a friend and that that's a time where you might make some try to get them connected with a counseling center or encourage them to join clubs. But are they making the development are they developing academically and socially? But see, see how you think they're doing and then then also, but validate where they're really are shining and progressing. And let's say they got a C in a class and they they took a similar class next semester, and they worked hard and got a tutor and got an A, like, say, Wow, that's so you know, I saw you do that, that's, I saw you put the effort in, that's really great. And also validate when they're, they're having a tough time. And, like, I think when I went to college, it was easier than what my kids, I just in general, less stressful than when my kids went to college. So sometimes parents have a tendency said, Oh, it wasn't that bad when I went to college, but some things are just harder. Now. It's more competitive, it's harder to get into grad school. So validate that there might be struggles, but also, the last part of love is encourage, even if they're struggling and there, you still encourage them problem solve. I use that word a lot. But problem solved. If you're really stuck, say, Listen, I want to sit down with you and look at we'll go on the website of school and let's think about what resources you can do to you know, make this work. And so that it's really important to you don't want to be totally you don't want to say goodbye or going to college. But most don't. Most parents are pretty involved now. Yeah, but but it's it's important. You don't want to be overly involved either.Hannah Choi 14:00 Right? You have to find a good balance. Marcia Morris, MD 14:02 Yeah, right. But but you do. I think kids need a lot of encouragement toHannah Choi 14:08 Yeah, I mostly work with college age students, for my executive function coaching clients. And this is all sounding very familiar to me experiencing like challenges freshman year, and then heading into sophomore year with a little bit more support, you know, from a coach or from like, mom had to step in and help a little bit and now and then they then they really start to do well with a little extra support.Marcia Morris, MD 14:37 So right and I like you know and I your company does great coaching I know that and and sometimes there's something called Success Coaching on campus. It's not at every school but though they will they those coaches will take a look at students holistically and see how they're doing socially, academically and often they can access the grades. And sometimes students, if they're doing badly might not want to admit it. So they'll just sit with a student be very supportive and direct them, they might direct them to a different major, some kids start, it's actually I read something, at least 30% of students switch majors, at least one time, I've heard a range of statistics, but it's very common to switch majors. So they might have helped them switch majors, they might suggest a different club to join. So that guidance is so helpful.Hannah Choi 15:38 Yeah, right, helpful. I know, I always encourage my clients take advantage of your academic advisor. Or if you qualify for services at the Disability Resource Center, go and get to know them, even if you don't go regularly just know what they offer. And, and so is that is that something that you recommend to your students as well? Marcia Morris, MD 15:59 Absolutely, absolutely. For all the patients in our clinic, we generally encourage them to sign up for the Disability Resource Center for whether they have anxiety, depression, or ADHD. Because they you never know when they're going to need the resources. Sometimes they they register, we have to write a letter and they submit it and they register. And they may not even use it, but then there might be a point where they need it. And the accommodations could include time and a half for testing or testing in a quiet room. And then to get additional accommodations. It's more of a kind of a discussion with the Disability Resource Center about whether they can hand and work late. And and so there's Yeah, it's a process and that has benefited many students that I've worked with over the years. Yeah, very appreciative of the disability resource centers on campus.Hannah Choi 16:57 Yeah, that was that's always my one of my first questions for anyone who might qualify for services there. Have you checked in with them? Have you gotten to know them. And I saw that a lot when I worked in, in, in the office that I worked at is sometimes some semesters kids needed it, you know, for everything and other semesters they didn't. But just having itMarcia Morris, MD 17:20 Right, and with mental health issues, with some mental health issues, there could be an exacerbation of symptoms, ADHD, tends to be pretty steady. And you know, what kind of some of the issues are with depression, something might happen in someone's life, and they might have a more severe episode and need more accommodations at that moment. Get registered, and then going back in and, you know, adding accommodations can be very helpful. One thing I was going to suggest also is students should register at the very beginning of the year. We had talked before about how with COVID. It's sometimes it's there's students have been more overwhelmed, at least on our campus, they're accessing the disability resource center. Yeah. But so you want to get ahead of the line as much as possible. Because if you wait till the middle or end of the semester, it can be hard to get an appointment to discuss options. Yeah. And also counseling services. Hannah Choi 18:25 Yeah, yeah. And if you, the student, are feeling overloaded or stressed, because it's midterms, you adding an additional appointment of getting to know the place is just an additional thing to do. If you've already connected with them during the time where you're not stressed out schools just beginning, then it's, it's gonna be a little easier for you won't feel like such a hurdle.Marcia Morris, MD 18:48 That's absolutely true. Yeah. Hannah Choi 18:51 So speaking of depression and anxiety, do you are you and COVID are you seeing a difference? Pre and Post COVID?Marcia Morris, MD 19:00 Well, yes, absolutely. And but what's been interesting and unfortunate is the trend has been upwards even before COVID. But in 2020, there's a national survey called the Healthy Mind study that's been tracking rates of depression and anxiety on college campuses. And so, in 2021, the study found that 41% of students screened positive for depression. And that's what's actually high number and 34% for anxiety. It uses a screening test. And again, the students who might take the survey perhaps they might have more issues anyways, but yeah, nonetheless, the trend has been upward. And the rate that is that rate for depression is double what it was in 2014, and the rate of anxiety is up by 50%. So that's a huge, huge increase. And we actually, I worked with a research group and we did a study that showed the rate of depression combined with anxiety, like having both. We use Healthy Minds data, by the way, but it has doubled since 2013. So, so and so we see more students experiencing the symptoms. It's not just happening in college, though we've there's been an increase of depression and anxiety and high school, but it is. So the COVID certainly made things harder. And I know it's a sign of the times there are stressful things going on in the Yeah, yeah, the economy. And COVID was just hard for everyone. But there's hope people can feel better. They can do therapy, they can, if needed, take medication, they can exercise, it's not going to cure depression, but it certainly helps really. I was gonna say one other thing, though, related to the depression and anxiety. I think the biggest problem of COVID was the social isolation where kids were, for safety reasons. And we didn't know how to handle COVID like students, high school and college students were often isolated. And that in that instance, their social skills fell behind. They were lonely loneliness can increase anxiety and depression. And what's interesting is now they're back. They're in class, they're interacting. But they're having some more anxiety about the interactions. It feels different. And I think it's the same for people outside of college.Hannah Choi 21:47 Oh, absolutelyMarcia Morris, MD 21:48 We're all adjusting. So but so, I'm a big supporter of therapy, individual, group therapy. And I think I want to encourage students to take advantage of those resources, whether it's on campus or off campus to deal with any, like strong feelings of depression and anxiety. And that would be like the first line of treatment before going to medication. Yeah.Hannah Choi 22:15 Yeah. And and every campus out there is going to have some kind of support center for students. And it can be hard to take that first step of making the phone call or going and walking in the door, but or maybe it's virtual, maybe it can be held virtually now. Do you guys do virtual, which can make it easier?Marcia Morris, MD 22:39 Yes. During the, during the first year of the COVID pandemic, I was doing 100% virtual psychiatry, working from home. Yeah, I'm back in the office. But what is very interesting to me, is that a lot of students like the virtual, you're good at technology, if they don't want to drive across to the apartment and deal with parking. Yeah, they might be. I sometimes work with medical students, they're on rotations. They can go into an office and do their session and then go back to work. In my opinion that telehealth has been a silver lining of the pandemic where we've we've improved those resources.Hannah Choi 23:25 So if a student or if a parent feels like their child, or a student feels like they want to take advantage of therapy on campus, who would be their first person to go to?Marcia Morris, MD 23:39 They should call the counseling center on campus directly. And then they would generally they either might speak with someone on the phone or see someone. And what's happened on a lot of campuses, the therapy is tended to be more short term. It does vary from campus to campus, so some will do long term therapy. So this, the student needs to maybe go on the website, see what the services are, and decide what what they need. So it might be doing some short term therapy on campus in transitioning off campus or doing a telehealth kind of therapy or psychiatry. I like one of the things I like about my job on campus in particular is I get to see students from freshman year and is through. Yeah, it was psychiatry, it's hard to do short term treatment because they might be on medicine for a while, right. So so we really they really do need, you know, consistent follow up. But I do think also some students would benefit from long term therapy and I would like to see campuses make that more available to students. I know the resources are limited and they're being stretched, but I think it's so important for young adults to get therapy early on to prevent problems getting more serious. So I'd like to see more access to both therapy and psychiatry on campus. And if not on campus, and even through through community mental health centers with affordable resources, I think, nationally, we need to really get young adult mental health improved.Hannah Choi 25:23 Absolutely, I completely agree. Marcia Morris, MD 25:26 But, but parents can get involved in trying to figure out what where the resources are. And because it's, if you're depressed, it's hard to kind of work through situations. And the other thing I wanted to mention is a lot of campuses have a case manager, who might be may or may not be a social worker, but they can cut, they can help the student connect with resources. Sometimes the case manager is in the counseling center. Sometimes it's might be in the Dean of Students Office. But there's each campus runs a different site, it's very, very as you work varies tremendously. But if you need to find a helper to connect you, that's the key to and the parent can be critical in that process.Hannah Choi 26:15 And so you mentioned medication, how does? How do how do medications come into play here, and how can parents support their child if they either are on medication already, or might need to look, go down that path.Marcia Morris, MD 26:30 One way they can support the students is if they're coming to school on medicine, to try to facilitate them having continuous treatment, because one of the worst things that can happen, especially with antidepressants is stopping the medicine. Right? If someone wants to come off of a medicine, they need to taper slowly and work with a provider. So continuity of care is extremely important when they're coming to college. The other issue is the sometimes parents have doubts about the need for medicine, or they worry about side effects. And with antidepressants, by the way, there is a blackbox warning, talking about increased risk of suicidal behavior. Teenagers up until 25. The study showed that the concerning time is really under 18. But nonetheless, occasionally, when a young adult starts any antidepressant they can have kind of new suicidal thinking. So the important thing is, let's say a parent is said I don't want says to the child, I really feel uncomfortable with you starting any antidepressant, it's worthwhile to ask the child to say, you know, let's all meet with the psychiatrist so I can learn about how these medicines work. And know like we have an on-call system. So if the students having a problem, they can reach us, we're not just going to hand them a medicine and say there you go! We don't do that. But what we do do is that we do have follow up visits with the student and more at the beginning to see how are you feeling on this medicine? Are you having side effects? Is this the right dose, and I increase medicine very slowly, because you do not want to cause side effects in college students affecting concentration or energy level. So So parents, if they're having worries about the medicine, or even if they feel the student is not doing well, on the medicine can say, I want you to let the psychiatrist know that you need you need to call your psychiatrist or I'd love to meet with you and this psychiatrist because I'm observing things that concern me. But again, don't stop the medicine.Hannah Choi 28:50 That's really, that's the takeaway. And then that reminds me of like, I had a client who one thing that we were working on was making sure that he had reminders and a system to help him remember to get his refill, so that that wouldn't happen. And so that can be something that has to be learned to by the student.Marcia Morris, MD 29:14 And and you're bringing up, right. And also in the past, the parents might have picked up. The student has to, and there's an issue coming up now and hopefully it's getting better, but there's an Adderall. Sure. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:28 I read about that. Yeah. Marcia Morris, MD 29:30 So what we're doing now with students is we're saying make sure you fill the prescription right on time. And then sometimes we end up calling around to pharmacies to see where they haven't. I hope that's gonna get better soon. And what we usually are able to find it's at somewhere, but that can be a challenge. And so let's say a student goes to the pharmacy and they don't have the Adderall they need to call the psychiatrist and sometimes there's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and my thought, like, if you need to call the clinic and say, I'm facing this challenge do I've called a few pharmacies, they don't have it, can you tell me where to go? Or what to do?Hannah Choi 30:15 Yeah. And so that's something that comes up a lot for college students is learning how to ask for help take advantage of resources. And it's and it's okay to ask for help. And there are people out there that really want to support you. So that's a good example of you might have to do that.Marcia Morris, MD 30:34 Yeah, right. And, and even for my patients, sometimes, though, they might be having a side effect. But they might wait to tell me until the next appointment, I said, you can feel free to call and we've structured our clinics. So nurses will take the preliminary call and then let let us know if there's something serious going on. So you know, we tried, we try to, you know, have a team of resources, we even train our support staff to kind of figure out where to triage different calls. That's good. And yeah, we have a really, I'm really happy with the team I work with there. It's it's a very caring team. And that's also Yeah, important to make sure your student is working with a group of people or one person who seems to, you know, care.Hannah Choi 31:20 Yeah. And then that goes back again to getting in early and meeting with the people in that office and getting to know that team and having them get to know you and your child and making sure that you that they are familiar with your case. And it can just really help in times of crisis, I imagine definitely.Marcia Morris, MD 31:42 I will add one more last thing about medicine, for antidepressants, which actually treat both depression and anxiety. The question often is asked, How long will my child be on this medicine, it's pretty hard to predict. But I can say that I've had students who, let's say, have pretty bad anxiety and depression. And they do a good course of what we call cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the gold standard treatment for depression and anxiety. And sometimes after a good course of therapy and making life changes, like finding the right major, finding the right friend group, they find they can taper off of the medicine, but with the help of a psychiatrist, and I've seen that happen. The important thing is, though, generally, if someone's on an antidepressant, they they stay on it for approximately nine months to a year, because that's the timeframe it takes to have a full recovery, particularly from depression. Okay, so, so but but it doesn't have to mean forever. It really doesn't. Because I know, and I'm sorry about that. Hannah Choi 31:42 Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm sure that's comforting to parents who are concerned about their child being on medication, that it's not a forever thing. Marcia Morris, MD 32:37 And the only time it might, it's might be forever as if someone has a more severe mental health problem, like severe bipolar disorder. Sometimes that requires lifelong medicine. And that's about 1% of the population, but, but when people do well, you can keep them on lower doses, and they'll have fewer side effects and utilize therapy along with it, though, you can do it the way in that people can function and not feel overmedicated.Hannah Choi 33:40 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, find like, again, finding that balance, and making sure that the choices that the life choices that they're making, in addition to medication are also being supportive, which reminds me you just said something about a friend group. And it reminds me of a client of mine once who had a friend group that that was, was not a healthy friend group for her. And, and so and so she changed her friend group and now and you know, and then ended up having a much better experience. And that makes me think about the social experience of kids in college. And how important that is,Marcia Morris, MD 34:20 It is equally important to the academic experience is all about your social development, deciding which friends you want to hang out deciding which romantic partners you want to be with, and learn and learning how to deal deal with people in difficult situations. And having fun, I mean, college should be fun, too. It shouldn't be a total grind. It is hard. I mean I I studied pretty hard in college, but I also had some fun. And so it's important for students to find the activities they enjoy. It might be intramural sports, it might be going to to church or temple or a mosque, it, it might be. I'm trying to think of the interesting groups, I think there was an acrobatics group one time. You know, like,Hannah Choi 35:13 There's something for everyone,Marcia Morris, MD 35:15 Some of the clubs, but but it you have to find something, it's important to have fun. And that's, that's, it's just part of life, we should all have fun. But maybe do your studying during the weekend, have fun on the weekends, don't have fun, every won't be able to you know, pass your classes. School should be fun. I think the academic part there should be joy in the academics too. And it's it's important to find what you really like. And so if you're, you know, kind of pre med and you're think that's what I should do, but you say, I really liked this. It's a long, four years undergrad and four years of medical school and four years of residency to like,Hannah Choi 36:00 yeah, that's a long time. It's really,Marcia Morris, MD 36:03 But it's really important to find things you enjoy. And I think parents worry of my kid majors in English or history, they're not going to get a job. But in reality, kids get jobs doing social media for companies after graduation when they're majoring in English. It's so interesting, all the different things they do post graduation, but I think it's important to find a major you enjoy it, but still go to a Career Resource Center started. Yeah, as a sophomore beginning of junior year and start planning. Okay, I love this major. But here's I'm also going to think about a job after school. Or maybe it might be graduate school.Hannah Choi 36:43 Yeah, I was just thinking, Gosh, I don't think I went to the Career Center once when I should have done that. I'm very happy with my, my career, how it all worked out.Marcia Morris, MD 36:53 Imagine, you know, with the experience I have working with students with my kids, I said you need to go found me a little too much sometimes, but it kind of helped to you. In terms of your that you have this resource on your campus? Use it take advantage of it.Hannah Choi 37:11 Yeah, yep. I, whenever I start working with a college student, I always say to them, okay, yes, you're in, you're in college for academics. But let's make it so that your academics are, you know, as not easy as possible. But let's figure out ways systems, let's build systems, so that you have more time for your socializing, because you're right. I mean, yes, college is about academics, but it really is also about finding about who you are as a person, and learning social skills and learning the kind of people that you'd like to be around and the kind of people you need to avoid, and learning how to ask for help and become part of a group and how to function in a group. And you can't learn all that if you just do the academic. And so you need to leave time for the, that social aspect. Marcia Morris, MD 37:46 And studies actually, so show that a sense of social belonging on campus is correlated with better grades. So parents who were worried about that say, yeah, they might actually say have time to restore themselves and have some fun. They might do better academically.Hannah Choi 38:24 Yes, yes. Yep. And that's why it's so and also how you said, the adding joy to your academics, and finding something that works for you. Yes, you're gonna have to take classes that that are in your major, that that don't work for you. But if you can build systems, and figure out the tools and the strategies that you need to use to make it more bearable to get through those classes, take advantage of your resources can just make it everything so much more enjoyable. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't cover today?Marcia Morris, MD 39:01 Yes, one one last thing. When your child is applying to colleges, again, take a close look and see what kind of what kind of coping skills they have where they thrive. Because some kid I have, I have one child who went to a small private college I have another tiles we went to a large state school because their needs were different. And they both they thrived in the those settings they were the right settings for them. So that's important as you're in that you can you know often work with the guidance counselor at school it's now popular and a high hire people to help with the whole application process. But if you do hire someone, find someone who's not just looking at all the best school your kid will get. Yeah, really look at your child and see where they're going to thrive. And um, the the last so I'm talking about kind of getting into school and I just also want to talk About the exit from school that yeah, that can be tricky time too. And sometimes the challenge is some kinds of classes for certain majors like engineering can get super hard at the very end, there might be a design project where you have to develop this whole system. And so that's a time to check in with your child to and see how they're doing. Because for some kids that last year can be pretty stressful, stressful, and there can be some tough classes to get into. And the other stress is for kids who haven't figured out what they want, right? Might want to go to medical school, but haven't fulfilled the requirements, help your child calm down and say, Listen, you can do a gap year you can apply to med school or another graduate school, you don't have to go go straight to grad school. So kind of paying attention to the transition into college. And the transition out is really, those are kind of tricky times where kids might need more support.Hannah Choi 41:00 And also helping helping kids realize that you don't have to follow the sort of traditional path that, that you feel like everyone else is following and because not everyone is following it and not and that's not the right path for everyone. And yeah, and taking the time to figure out what what would be best for me and what would be best for my happiness. And I have a friend who he did two years of college, and then he took a few years off, and now he's back as a student in his later 20s. And he's loving it so much more. He's having a completely different experience than he did when he was in his late teens and early 20s. And he's so glad that he didn't follow that sort of traditional path of you know, finishing the four years. And so it's, it's, and I've heard that from multiple people.Marcia Morris, MD 41:51 Yeah, yeah. And also you have for parents take good care of yourself. Because one thing I've observed with young people, they're not going to open up to you, if they think you're stressed out, or you're going to take some deep breaths, reassure your kids, everything's gonna be okay, reassure yourself, everything's gonna be okay. But it's really important to stay calm, because your kid cares about you a lot, too, and they don't want to stress you out, but just can handle things, and you guys will work things out together.Hannah Choi 42:22 Yeah, remember, I really liked how you address that in the book about how sometimes in your book, how sometimes kids will hold off on sharing something with their parents, because they they don't want to, you know, add out a burden to them or disappoint them or anything. And, and, yeah, and so that goes back to what we were talking before about maintaining that relationship with your child and the trust and keeping that rapport. It's so important.Marcia Morris, MD 42:52 You know, and who have been through grad school and you're in grad school, and that it's interesting, because the relationships continue. It's changes a lot as kids get into their late 20s. But that parent child relationship is really important. Yeah, we got to maintain the positive relationship.Hannah Choi 43:11 Yeah, it's what I've talked about with with a number of our other guests on the podcast is how, like, different strategies to you know, keep that relationship and how just just being with your child validating, like you said earlier, and just letting them know that you're there if if they need you, and that it's okay to share. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, I keep hearing that from everyone that I'm talking to. So it's something that's worth putting effort into and trying so. Well, thank you so much. It's just been a great conversation full of really good ideas. And I feel like there's a lot of like actionable advice in there for people. So yeah. And where can where can you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, but where can our listeners find you?Marcia Morris, MD 44:01 Well, I have a website, and my name is spelled Marcia M-a-r-c-i-a, but MarciaMorrismd.com. And my book, the campus cure is available on Amazon and other websites. But it's easiest to get it through Amazon. And I'm also if you Google college wellness Psychology Today, you can see my blog, I'm having a new blog coming out and it probably this weekend called "Dear College Student, You Deserve to Be Happy. You know, I want college students to be able to find joy in their experience, even though times are challenging right now.Hannah Choi 44:46 That's wonderful. Yeah. Life is life is more fun with joy in it. Yes. All right. Well, thank you, Marcia.Marcia Morris, MD 44:53 Right. It's great talking with you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 44:56 Yes, you too. And That's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to Marcia's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Marcia helpful. I know I will be listening again when it's time for my daughter to go off to college. We hope to help as many people as we can with the important conversations we have on focus forward. So please share our podcast with your colleagues, your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningTranscribed by https://otter.ai

On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you’ll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don’t get along and why I can’t go to the store without a list because I’ll walk out with lots of stuff I didn’t need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I’ve learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it’s okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.Here are some resources related to our conversation: Learn more about Dr. Sherrie AllCenters for Cognitive WellnessSherrie All, PhDThe Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhDLearn More About MemoryWorking Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and EducationMemory - Harvard HealthCognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on AgingWorking Memory: Take Note of Your Child’s ChallengesHow to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James ClearContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningEp 16_ Improve Your Memory_ Neuroscience Strategies for a He...Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:24AM • 58:42SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, strategies, memory, brain, book, neuropsychologist, called, attention, dementia, learning, important, exercise, brain cells, stress, systems, helping, alzheimer, hannah, clinicians, sleepSPEAKERSSherrie All, PhD, Hannah ChoiHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid’s Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

In today’s episode, we're exploring the Executive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward, defines the skill of time management as “the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines”. She continues by arguing that this process starts with one simple insight: understanding that time is important in the first place! As an Executive Function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time and how it impacts their lives. Today, I’m going to share with you a 4-step system that I’ve developed that can help you build time-management strategies that you'll be able to use for life.Time Management BasicsHow To Master Time Management – ADHD Skills Part 1 - Dr. Tracey Marks6 Simple Motivation Hacks for a More Productive LifeTime Management Tip: The UnscheduleTransition from High School to College: Time Management is Key15 Practical Ways to Improve Time Management Skills - Lifehack3 Time Management Tips That Actually Work - James ClearBig Rocks Video with Stephen CoveyEisenhower Matrix/Covey QuadrantsHow to Use Covey's 4 Quadrants Matrix for Effective Time ManagementThe Eisenhower Matrix: How to prioritize your to-do listAvoid the "Urgency Trap" with the Eisenhower MatrixLearn how to use Stephen Covey's 4 time quadrants to maximize your productivityHow to be More Productive and Eliminate Time Wasting Activities by Using the “Eisenhower Box” - James ClearManaging Phone DistractionThese simple steps will help you stop checking your phone so much10 Strategies to Limit Your Teen's Screen TimeOfftimeDial D for Distracted | The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie SantosScreen Use and Screen Addiction Resource PageContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to let you know that you can listen and subscribe with ease to Focus Forward on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, and all the others. We'd love your help and sharing our podcasts too. So if you know someone who would benefit from our content, please share it with them. Our goal is to provide useful tips and life changing inspiration to as many people as possible, so thanks for your help. Hannah Choi 00:46In today's episode, I'm exploring the executive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward defines the skill of time management as the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines. She says it also involves a sense that time is important. As an executive function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time, and how it impacts their lives. Hannah Choi 01:32Today, I'm going to share with you a system that I've developed that can help with this, it's got four components. First, figure out your relationship with time. Second, learn how to prioritize and then do some prioritizing. Third, implement tools and strategies that support your time management. And lastly, and most importantly, reflect on what you've done and modify your approach as needed. Hannah Choi 02:01If you're like, Man, I don't want to do all four steps, I just want to skip ahead to the tools and strategy section. That's okay, I get it. But hear me out for one sec. Yes, diving in and implementing tools and strategies right now will help in the short term, it will. But I truly believe that in order to make lasting change, and improve your time management skills for the long run, and you know, just like make it easier for your future self, you got to put in the time to do the other work. That being said, if you're still not convinced, skip ahead to about 12 minutes to hear the section on tools and strategies, I fully support your decision. And this next section will be waiting for you if you decide to come back for more. Hannah Choi 02:44All right, so if you're still with me, yay. Before we start, you just might want to get a pen and paper so you can write some ideas down. Taking notes is not just for students, it saves a ton of time for your future self and can absolutely help with being more effective with your time. Okay, so let's start with my first step, which as I said, is figuring out your relationship with time. And I don't mean that like weird part of a relationship where you're not sure if you're just friends, or if you've moved into them more-than-friends zone. Or you can actually just introduced them now as your boyfriend or girlfriend. I just mean how do you experience time? When you're doing stuff? Do you run out of time? Do you think things will take way longer than they actually do? Do you have a good idea of how time passes? Or do you have no idea that time is the thing at all. Learning about your relationship with time is valuable because it can help you plan and prioritize your day. If you know that you always run out of time when you're doing work for a particular class, then you know, you have to budget a little more time for those assignments. For example, I noticed that while I am actually quite good at time management, I do get overwhelmed when I have many things to do that are back to back. So I learned to always add 15 minutes to something to give me a little break before switching to a new activity. There are some good tools you can use to figure out this whole time relationship business. One of our favorites here at beyond booksmart is the BVA, which stands for budgeted versus actual. And this tool can help you figure out pretty darn quickly if you are an over or an under estimator of time. All right, so what you do is you pick a task. Well, ideally, you do this with a bunch of different tasks in different areas of your life. But if that feels like too much, that's okay. Just pick one thing. Okay, let's pick unloading the dishwasher. So you make a guess at how long it'll take you to unload the dishwasher. The then like start a timer and unload it at your regular speed but no rushing here, just regular speed. And then you remember to stop the timer. This is where I always get hung up and check the time was your guests over or under the actual time it took you, and by how much it can really help to be scientific about this. So if you can get yourself to time other tasks, I really encourage you to do it. But if not, just try to pay attention to whether you seem to run out of time or have time left over. It can also help to pay attention to what kind of tasks seem to take longer than you think they will. For example, tasks that require deep thinking and concentration, maybe physical tasks, and enjoyable or dreaded tasks. You might experience time differently with different things. So noticing these patterns can really help. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, so that's how we can use a BVA to test our relationship with time. And later on, I'll explain how we can use a BVA to help us prioritize and plan. Some other quick ideas for learning how you experience time, you could wear a watch with a timer function, or use a visual timer. You can find them online that they're called time timers. And those can show you the visual passing of time. And then you can see how you feel when you really see that time passing. You can also look at your phone usage data. I had a client whose jaw literally dropped when I had him look at this, he had no idea he had been spending that much time on his phone. I will never forget the look on his face the poor guy. You can also ask the people in your life that you trust to see what their opinion is about your relationship with time. I admit this can put you in a very vulnerable spot, but it might be a worthwhile exercise. Hannah Choi 06:43Okay, so now that we figured out if time is our boyfriend or not, let's learn how to prioritize. Prioritizing is extremely important if you want to be better at time management. When you learn to prioritize, you can more easily plan your day with intention. Doing this will help you find it easier to focus and be more present. As you go through your day, you'll likely be more efficient, and hopefully, you'll feel less overwhelmed by all the things you have to do. Hannah Choi 07:14Before I dive into some tools for learning how to prioritize let's take a nerdy look at the word priority. The etymology of the word priority is pretty interesting. It comes from the word prioritize, which basically means the most important thing. And up until the mid 20th century, the word had no plural, you could just have one most important thing. Over time, people began having more than one most important thing. And when we have too many most important things life can become hard to manage, it can be hard to focus and we might lose sight of what truly is important. Hannah Choi 07:56There are two great activities that can help you figure out what your most important things are, and how to make sure that you can fit them into your day. The first is the big rocks activity. You may have seen the video of the professor showing his class how you can fit more rocks, pebbles and sand into a jar if you start with the big rocks first. These rocks represent your most important things, which we plan first because as you can see, if you put the smaller things in life first, in this situation, the pebbles in the sand, you won't be able to fit your rocks. If you have no idea what I'm talking about. You can find the link to this video in the show notes. Hannah Choi 08:43Another fantastic exercise for figuring out priorities is the Eisenhower matrix. It's also known as Covey quadrants. This tool helps you figure out what things in life are urgent, not urgent, important and not important. Covey assigned quadrant numbers to the matrix. So in quadrant one, you have important and urgent tasks like studying for a test. Finishing up that presentation for your boss or signing up your child for that art class that usually fills up in minutes. In quadrant two are your important but not urgent tasks, such as exercising and spending time with your family. Quadrant three are the dreaded urgent but not important to you tasks. Phone calls that interrupt your work time emails are just things you feel like you should do because someone else asked you to do them. And then quadrant four is not urgent and not important. Doom scrolling, binge watching TV getting lost in social media. Those are all in this quadrant. Hannah Choi 09:52I could do a whole separate episode on strategies for managing the tasks within each quadrant. So unfortunately there is no way I can cover it all in today's episode. But I encourage you to try this exercise, assign the things you do all day into each quadrant and see where your priorities lie. And then check out the show notes for more ideas on how to manage them. Basically, it comes down to doing the quadrant one things, delegating the quadrant three things so that you can have more time for the quadrant two things. And quadrant four, that quadrant can actually be really helpful. If you find yourself spending a ton of time on quadrant four things, it might be your brains way of telling you it doesn't like how things are escaping to quadrant four may mean that you need to pay attention to what's going on in the other quadrants and maybe make some major shifts in your life. I've also heard of this matrix used with the qualities of productive, unproductive, necessary and unnecessary if these terms resonate with you more try this exercise using those qualities instead. Hannah Choi 11:07In addition to figuring out your priorities, there are some simple tricks you can use to prioritize and plan your day. A simple to do list with the most important task written at the top can work wonders. Some people like to start with the easy things to get the ball rolling. Usually I start with the worst thing first. Because if I don't get that worst thing out of the way, it just stares at me from my to do list with its beady little eyes and just ruins the rest of my day. Regardless of whether you start with the easy stuff, or the hard, the key is just to be realistic and not put too many things on that list. Hannah Choi 11:44You can also use that BVA I mentioned earlier when prioritizing the things you need to do in your day. When you use the BVA to time yourself, you'll then know how long things will take. And you'll know if you need to add extra time. And this will help you know when you can fit them into your day. Hannah Choi 12:03Once you know what your most important things are, how long things will take and what your relationship with time is like you can build routines into your day that are based on all this information. The more we can learn about ourselves and how we prioritize and plan, the more effective our time management will be. And we don't have to do this alone. There are tons of tools and strategies and resources out there that can support you in your quest to manage your time more effectively. Like I've said in pretty much every episode, there's no way I can cover every time management tool in this one episode. So I'll highlight a few and then I encourage you to check out the show notes for more ideas. Hannah Choi 12:46The first thing I recommend is to consider using a planner or a digital calendar if you're not already using one. Some people use them just for remembering things like dentist appointments, work schedules or other commitments like that. They can be especially useful for families or groups who are managing multiple people's schedules. Some people find planners and calendars helpful for scheduling what they'll do during their entire day. Ally, who shared her calendar strategy in our episode all about ADHD does this. She said she doesn't always follow it exactly. But she likes having it as a guide, and definitely gets more done on those days than on the days that she doesn't schedule it out. Hannah Choi 13:28Two really simple tools that can be used together are the to do list that I just mentioned, and the Pomodoro Technique as you work through that list. The Pomodoro Technique is a method of working in chunks of time. For example, you would work for 25 minutes, take a five minute break, and then go back to work. I also encourage my clients to pay attention to diminishing returns if they prefer not to use a timer. Diminishing Returns is an economic principle that can be applied here. In this situation, it means that the effort you're putting in no longer benefits you as it did when you first started the activity. So say you're reading and you realize that you have read the same line over and over again, it's probably time to take a break or switch activities. Hannah Choi 14:18There are a lot of tech options out there for supporting your time management. I am a big fan of timers and alarms. In addition to using a timer for the Pomodoro Technique, I use it to remind me of the passage of time. If I have a big project that I'm enjoying working on and I know that I need to stop at a certain point to go pick up one of my kids or attend a meeting, and I don't want to be interrupted by repeatedly checking the clock. I'll set an alarm for when I should stop working. I can then work without looking at the clock. Hannah Choi 14:51I also use calendar alerts to help myself as well. You can change the default Event Reminder to whatever works best for you. I have mine set for one hour, 30 minutes and 10 minutes, which sounds like a lot, but it really works for me. And in addition to calendar alerts, you can use digital reminders or tasks. both Apple and Google have these features. So if you're not already using them, I encourage you to check them out. And if you wear a smartwatch, you can configure it so that your calendar and task notifications pop up on your watch. This can be super helpful because you can see the notification without picking up your phone. Hannah Choi 15:31And speaking of phones, being mindful of your phone use, and keeping that in check is a big part of time management these days. Falling into the Instagram trap or getting stuck in some other Quadrant for activity is an annoyingly effective way of derailing your time management progress. Take a look at your phone usage and consider setting limits on how much time you can spend in apps that feel like time sucks. Research shows that just having your phone near you, even if you can't see it can impact your productivity. Try to experiment and leave your phone in the other room. Are you more productive and manage your time better when your phone's not around? Hannah Choi 16:10My last suggestion is to create a SMART goal for situations where you need to be very efficient with your time. If you aren't familiar with smart goals, I'll explain them for you here. SMART goals are an organized and thoughtful way of creating a system to help you reach a goal by making that goal more meaningful. Making goals more meaningful increases the chance of achieving them. SMART is an acronym and stands for specific, measurable, achievable, yet ambitious, relevant and realistic, and time bound. You thoughtfully consider each step in the process and write down details about each. First you define your specific goal. Then you determine how you will measure your progress. Then you'll describe how it's both achievable and also ambitious. Then you explain how it is relevant in your life and how it is realistic for you to attempt this goal right now. And lastly, you'll set a time goal a deadline. Once you've completed this process, you use other tools and strategies to support yourself as you work towards your goal and executive function coaching colleague of mine here at Beyond BookSmart has used SMART goals to help her clients create routines that make mornings easier. Working through a SMART goal in this situation has multiple benefits. At the most basic level, her clients have a less stressful morning, which is just a much better way to start the day. Filling out each step of the SMART goal helps our clients explore their relationship with time, and they can use it to reflect on the strategies that they're using to make their mornings more efficient. Hannah Choi 18:02Reflecting on what we're working on is critical to making lasting change. And this is my last step in learning how to master your own time management. Reflecting on your efforts helps you learn about what works and what doesn't. figuring all this out helps you fine tune the strategies that you're using. And this reflection process can look different for everyone. If you're more of a data person, the scientific thinker, you might want to track your progress using a habit tracker. You can learn about this in episode three of Focus Forward. You can take notes, or just write down your thoughts about your experience using different tools, you could revisit that BVA and retime yourself to see if things are taking a different amount of time than they used to. Hannah Choi 18:51If being scientific about it feels like too much. And that's okay, because not everyone thinks that way. You can just kind of pay attention to how you feel. Do you feel less tired at the end of the day? Because you're managing your time better? Do you notice that you're crossing off more things on your to do list? Are you arriving at meetings or appointments on time more often than you were before? Do you feel like a better friend or partner because you have more time to spend with your loved ones? There are lots of things you can notice just by paying a little more attention to how things are going for you. And once you've made some observations about your time management, you might want to tweak certain tools or add a new one or maybe even abandon a tool altogether. Or you might find that your system is working great. And then you can take yourself out for some ice cream as a reward. However you do it, do whatever is right for yourself. And that's what reflection is all about - learning about yourself and doing things the way they work for you.Hannah Choi 19:49And that is our show for today. I really hope you found some strategies in this episode that help you improve your time management skills. Even just taking a little step towards improvement will make a big difference. And thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it. As I said before, we would love that, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, and more. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual’s life in ways both good and bad. So in today’s episode, I’ll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We’ll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I’ll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication’s role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine’s Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

We’re back! Didya miss me? I missed you all and it's so great to be back with new episodes of the podcast. As this new season of Focus Forward begins, I’m diving right in to tackle the difficult subject of transitions, its impact on personal growth, and what can be done to better cope. To inform this conversation, I invited Rachel Hulstein-Lowe, a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you are listening to this episode months after school has started or you are not even a parent or caregiver of children, don’t worry because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time, by anyone, in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. While the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope. Here are some relevant resources related to our conversationLearn more about Rachel Hulstein-Lowe.Learn more about Lisa Damour.Mindfulness ResourcesGetting started with mindfulnessSmiling Mind AppThe impact of the pandemic on childrenThe Stolen Year by Anya KamenetzEffects of COVID-19 pandemic on mental health of children and adolescents: A systematic review of survey studiesSnapshot of pandemic’s mental health impact on childrenBack to School SupportBack to School AnxietyStudent Stress: Untangling the Anxiety & Executive Function ConnectionExhausted by the School Year (already)? How to Get Back on TrackCan You Help My Anxious Kid?Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingHannah Choi 00:04Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, and we're back. Did you miss me? I miss you. And I am so excited to be back in the podcast Oh sphere. Okay. I think I may have just invented that word. But I'm going with it. We took two months off from dropping new episodes, and boy did it fly by. If you ever catch yourself saying two months is a nice long amount of time. Stop yourself right there. Because that is a lie. Two months is basically two seconds, so you better get going right away. If you want to accomplish anything in that amount of time. Well, I guess first, you could listen to episode 11 In our first season, which was all about procrastination, and how to make it a little easier to get going. But once you're done with that, get off your butt and get going. Would you believe me when I say that that's only the first time you'll hear me say "butt" in this episode? Hannah Choi 01:15As this new season of focus forward begins. I'm diving right in to tackle some tough stuff with Rachel Holstein-Lowe, who is a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you're listening to this episode, months after school has started or you're not even a parent or a caregiver of children, don't change the channel, because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time by anyone in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. And we also touched upon both how to talk with our kids and support ourselves when incomprehensibly sad and complicated situations are happening in our country and in the world. And while the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.Hannah Choi 02:16Alright. Well. Hi, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:20Oh, thank you, Hannah. It's really nice to be here. I'm really glad we were able to come together.Hannah Choi 02:26Me too. It took us a while we had starts and stops there my family with COVID. And there was summer traveling. But yes, it happened. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:35Yes, I'm glad we persevered.Hannah Choi 02:38Well, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:41Sure. So I'm Rachel Holstein-Lowe and I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. I'm based in the Metro West Boston area, and I have a private practice there. I've been in private practice for 12 years here. But I've been a clinician for nearly 20 years. And I work with a lot of kids and teens and their parents around all kinds of issues, executive functioning being one of many. And certainly that's that that cluster of skills is so impacted by kind of what whatever else is going on, in a young person's life that I think honestly, probably any client, I see kid and adult, like we're talking about those things, whether or not we're using that language,Hannah Choi 03:33right? There's something that you said made me just think about, like the why they're called executive function skills, right. They're just skills that help us execute our day. And so it makes sense that they're tied up with everything. And, and like you said, Me, you might not use that language, but learning how our mental health impacts our executive function skills, and vice versa, is such a valuable skill. And I love that more and more conversations are being had around executive function. And more and more people are learning those words and what that means and how important they are. And it's not just, you know, organization and time management, it's the emotions that are involved with how you feel when you are disorganized, or when you can't manage your time, or how you feel when you figure out how to get organized and how to maintain that organization and how to like if you finally figure out a way to not forget to go to appointments or you finally get to your appointments on time. How what a huge impact that has on your how you feel about yourself. Yeah. That that, that I love how that you said that it comes up in their conversations and yet you recognize as a practitioner, that that is what's that is what's being talked about whether you use those wordsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 04:55I think there's a kind of a growing awareness that these aren't things that we Just have right there skills that we have to develop and work at. And similarly, and I think also going what what societally speaking is that we're, we're increasingly aware that there's not that the mind and the body are actually connected. And not right, the mind isn't just being transported by the body. So I feel like that there's a growing awareness and understanding about about that, that allows for us to have a different kind of conversation and a different way of working.Hannah Choi 05:35Yeah, well, yeah. Similarly, I find, I see a look of almost relief, I would say, on my clients, when I explain, or when we talk about how the brain is causing the challenges that that they that they're having. And so I feel like, I see this relief, like, oh, it's not me, it's my brain. And so like learning that connection between the brain and the body, and and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do. All comes from the brain. I don't know, for me, it really helps me understand it. And I do see like, oh, okay, so I'm not just like, bad at something. My brain, there's something going on in my brain that makes it more challenging.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 06:27Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. And also, what I see with people when they learn about how the brain works, or how and then more specifically how their own brain might be working, right it how it might be processing information, or being triggered, right? How the stress response gets triggered, like, the more they understand that the more agency, yeah, they feel like they have, like, oh, there's actually something I could do in that moment, that might not take the stressor away, but I could feel a little bit better, I can feel a little calmer, I can feel a little more, you know, capable in that moment. And and that that is really exciting to see how quickly somebody can go from a place of just being like, Oh, this is the way it's going to be to oh, oh, I can actually that actually worked. So like we do a breath technique and like, oh, well, I actually do feel different. Like I can actually send a difference in my, in my brain and in my body. And that allows me to make a different choice. And that's just I think that's, that's really exciting. That's, that's an that's an exciting part of the work right? When you see somebody unlock thatHannah Choi 07:41Yeah, yeah. And so that makes me think about the idea of this practice, right? So they call it like a meditation practice or a mindfulness practice. And so that means that we have to do these things over and over again, to get better at them, right. And so it makes me think of all these strategies that we use to support ourselves in areas where we might struggle, you can't just do it once, right, you can do it once and experience the benefit of that one time. But you need to do it again. And again. And it makes me think of how at the beginning of the, like, beginning of any kind of transition, any kind of change, we might feel like super organized, and we've got our like ducks in a row, like at the beginning of the school year, like Yeah, I don't know, with my my kids, right? They've, they've got their checklists, and they're, you know, and they've got their backpacks already, and they know exactly what they're going to do. And so the first week of school, they've kind of got it together, and they remember to do the things they're going to do. And then already this week, I'm seeing we started last week, and already this week, I'm seeing it starting to fall apart. And, and, and on my end to like my, my, the energy that I have to help them maintain the system that we're trying to build is challenging. So do you how do you support your your clients are just what do you recommend for people to once they start to try to set up that practice? Whatever it is practice of fill in the blank? How do you help people keep that going and not experience what I'm already experiencing? Only in week two?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 09:17Yeah. When we're starting, like when we're kind of entering these big transition moments. I think there can be a lot of hope that kids and parents alike have about the new year and you know, we got to clean the slate and there's all this opportunity. And we're going to you're going to learn so much you're going to grow so much you're going to try new things. And that that can all be true. But there's also you know, plenty of kids and parents who are thinking, oh man, not again. Right, and are really expecting it to be hard because it has been or because they're tough. Tired, right? And just like the idea of having to like get up and go like they did, like they don't write, they don't have it. Don't feel like they have it.Hannah Choi 10:12Or there's or there's other situations in their life other circumstances in their life that exactly literally makes it challenging, like if they work at night or if you're stressed in some other in the financial way, or if they don't feel like they have support.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:26Right. Yeah. Right. So I mean, I think we can, I'm both cases, we want to be looking at kind of setting some, some realistic expectations.Hannah Choi 10:36So what are some questions in interactions that parents can have to support their kids to get to a place of seeing situations in a more kind of realistic way?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:49I think sometimes parents, ah, you know, we're often handicapped because we often ask the question, how was your day? And we hear crickets? Guilty? I think there's a lot of reasons for that, and understandable reasons for that. I think so sometimes I think there's there's also like, how we go about it matters a lot. How much we're asking when we're asking what we're expecting to get back. So the timing, waiting until we're in the car, that we're not right, like those and those kinds of tactics, I think of becoming more and more like people kind of get like, oh, yeah, if we're not making direct eye contact, maybe if we're just sitting next to each other in the car or on the couch, it might be an easier interaction.Hannah Choi 11:35Yeah, I've heard, I've heard lots of suggestions about having difficult conversations in the car. Because you as a driver are slightly distracted, you're not going to be able to be like super, super involved in the conversation. You don't have to look at each other. You can pause and pretend that you're concentrating driving when really you're like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 11:55Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can clench the wheel if need be? Yeah. The other I think it's, I think it could actually be really useful. In terms of timing, but then I think, also, as parents, you know, I have a unique position with the young people I see. And you know, you do too, and that I'm going to interact with them for at best 45 to 60 minutes a week. Yeah, yeah. And then they're going to, and then they're gonna go, they're gonna plop into my office, or I'm going to meet them virtually. And I'm, I'm gonna get some stuff, and we're gonna have a nice conversation, but they don't really they don't owe me anything beyond that. Nor do I owe them. And that's a, that's a really unique experience, I really try hard to let parents know like they, because of that they are going to share something with me that I think is fundamentally different. But the ways that parents can maybe maximize conversation is to really start to use the therapeutic models in terms of like, really starting from a place of, I want to show you that I get and understand your emotional world. Or at least, maybe I don't know all the details. And I can't pretend that I've lived that experience myself. But I know what it's like to be anxious. I know what it's like to be mad. I know what it's like to be jilted. I know what it's like to worry about a test, like I know those things. So when our kid is showing that emotion, we're joining with that. And we're starting from that place. So rath- So right, so we're really starting with a place of letting our kid know, I get that feeling state.Hannah Choi 13:43This, this reminds me of a conversation that I had earlier in last season of the podcast with Sherry Fleydervish, who is a therapist in the Chicago area, and she was talking about the idea of co-regulation, and how, how just even just share like, as much as you can, as a parent sharing in the emotion with your child can show them like you said, validate their feelings and can help them work through it or just, it shows them it's okay to feel this way. And to just it's okay to just sit in that feeling. And yeah, just being physically near them can help or Yeah, and then one thing that she said that, that really resonated with me is like, I I noticed, like, I don't I don't want to get it wrong when I'm interacting with my kids or my clients. Like I don't want to Well, up until I talked with her, I didn't want to get it wrong. I didn't want to. I wanted to be able to guess their emotion and get it right. And, and then so so I would hesitate to try to to try to help them figure out what they're feeling because, yeah, I didn't want to be wrong. And she said it's okay to be wrong. Yeah, because it can one it can help them. It just shows them that you're trying to connect with them. And to it can actually help them figure out what they are really feeling. Yeah. And because they can, if you guess wrong, then they can say, Oh, well, no, it's not actually that it's and then it gets them to think about Yes. Yeah. So as parents, we might be hesitant to engage with our children about emotion. In case we get it wrong, or in case, they don't want to talk about it, but maybe just showing them that we are open to talking about it, and that we have feelings, too. Must be very validating for kidsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 15:34Absolutely. I think it I think all of us are looking for that sense of being seen and heard. And when we really experienced that, that there's it can't be beat. Right? Regardless, regardless of age, but we are we're so hungry to be seen and heard. And understood. Yeah, we really want it all we really want to be known. We want to be known. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:57You just see people's reactions. Like sometimes you see a silly meme. And, and, and then and oftentimes people's response is "I feel seen". One was like, you know, I use my microwave as my as my coffee storage. And I was just like, Yeah, me too. That's where I keep my tea.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:16Love it. Yes. Yes, exactly.Hannah Choi 16:20Yeah. So no matter what it is, it does feel good to be seen, and how, what a great opportunity to enrich your relationship with your child.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:30And I think what often happens if we don't feel validated and known and understood, if our kid doesn't? Then they're gonna keep throwing things out? To try to get you to get it. Yeah. And what that typically looks like, is dysregulation and protest and resistance, right? That's how we experience it. But I think what they're actually trying to communicate is, can you could you please see me see me? See me? Yeah. And once we see them, we what we tend to see more often than not, is that really drops down. And then we can then we can have a conversation about well, what, what happened? And what do you want to do next? Yeah. And is there a way? Is there a way for me as your parent to do to be a part of that? Or is it more that you just needed me to know this is going on?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:25And that's a great question to ask.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:26And it sucks, right? I can't do anything. And I'm here for you. I think the our older, right, as our kids get older, our role more and more, really, is to take more of a backseat and allow them to try things and probably not always do it correctly. But to say I got your back here, no matter what. And, you know, you can go out and try those things and come back and tell me about them. And try again, you know, that's, that's, that's what we that's what we hope for. That is not an easy task as a parent. No, that's really, it can be excruciating.Hannah Choi 18:08And also, I feel like, you know, as when our kids are little we can, the things that we do for them are very tangible, right? Like we get we fill their cereal bowl with milk. Yeah, you're hungry. I'll pour the milk for you. You've grown out of your clothes. Here's some new clothes that fit. Yeah. But then as they get older, that connecting with someone emotionally is not like a thing you can hold. It's not, you know, it's not milk you can pour. And so it's a I imagine, I know for myself, but I imagine for the people that transition from helping in a real tangible way to helping in just like a sort of invisible support ways is different. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to back off like that.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 18:54It is. It is it is I think, particularly as parents, I will say, I've had one client in particular, I think of who I've worked with for a long time. And through a lot of a lot of life. This this this 19 year old has seen a lot. But something she shared with me recently was very early on in her work. It was just excruciatingly painful for her to articulate really what was going on internally. I could see it we could, we could see it, but we didn't know. There weren't words. And she said one of the one of the things that allowed her to keep coming back was that I just sat I literally sat with her. We didn't I didn't force conversations. Sometimes we passed a notebook back and forth to each other. And sometimes those were drawings, those weren't always words. But that went on for a while. But I went you know what it? The message she got was it was okay. I can hold it. And I think that's that that's really that's really the intention here is to say, I can handle it. As a parent, I can handle it. I don't like it. It's really yucky. But I can handle and I think that speaks to what you were talking about with this other therapist talking about that co-regulation piece. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 20:19And what a nice if you can get if you as a parent can get to a place where you can do that and feel comfortable doing that such a gift for you, your child and your relationship. Yeah. And future relationshipRachel Hulstein-Lowe 20:31Because I think what we forget, sometimes, either as parents or as providers, frankly, is that sometimes the people we're working with or our kids already have the answers, and then they just are so overwhelmed that they can't access them in that moment. But if we provide them space, right to sit with it, yeah. And feel it. And it's okay. And it passes as emotions do, right? They're not temp, they're not permanent. They're temporary, the cloud moves, right, the sun comes out again. And then oh, right, a solution appears. Right? Or maybe no solution, but at least something to try. I think another really cool thing to try is to is doing some imagery or doing some just some imagining around the this event being a success. Right, and like kind of step by step. So really, it can be a little bit painstaking. But really breaking it down until like, I'm going to, I'm going to get dressed, I'm going to walk out the door, I'm going to take these steps into the into the school like really like, at all those moments where there might be a seizing up that that we're imagining, well, what can I do in that moment? What's that going to feel like in my body? And what? Who am I going to need what connection? You know, what can I remember? What can I have with me? What can I hold in my hand, like all kinds of ways of imagining each step of that transition, or that moment being a success?Hannah Choi 22:13Hearing that is very validating for me because I struggle with some anxiety and and when I'm lying in bed the night before a day where I know that I'm going to be doing some things that that I'm anxious about. I will envision my day I make myself like I imagined myself getting up getting ready. You know, doing like I walk myself doing through all of your things. Awesome. Yeah. And yeah, I usually don't even make it to the end of the day, because I fall asleep before I get there. But it has been the, it has been one of the most helpful things that I've done for myself dealing with an upcoming stressor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 22:56Uh huh. Yeah. So one other thing to be thinking about when we're thinking about these big transition moments, right. So there's, there's all kinds of things to be keeping in mind. But I do want to say kind of the importance of routines. So we know, kids sleep is really crucial. And I'm you know, I don't want to be judge and jury on that. I just want to say like, having a regular bedtime and wake up time, regardless of age is really important in terms of good sleep hygiene, and in terms of maximizing brain capacity, and, and overall health benefits, like the data is undeniable. It's just undeniable. So the more we can support, that kind of routine is, is going to, we're going to see a better regulated and a more ready kid for the day. Yeah, so whatever we can do to support that. Um, and nutrition. I don't you know, I'm not a dietitian. So I'm not getting I'm not going to get into the details of that. But what I will say that falls under that umbrella is there's also very strong data about family dinner. And in our world, and in a lot of family systems, people have a lot of competing schedules and the idea of having family dinner. Are you nuts? I am not in any way saying it needs to happen every night, if it is like gold star. However, having some sacredness having some having some having some way of saying this night is family dinner night and we honor that and we respect That and that doesn't mean that I have to spend an hour making said family dinner, but that we sat down, and maybe we sat down at, we didn't sit down, maybe we ate at the counter because somebody has to go in 20 minutes. But we came together as a family. And we had that slice of pizza together. And I made eye contact with you. And I had an opportunity to say, this happened to me today. Or, huh, hey, I remember now you or something was gonna You were telling me about so and so what ended up happening was so and so. Having a chance to do that. A it reinforces it the family as a team. And we can we need each other. We need each other so so much. It, it reinforces the idea that I got your back. I got your back. I'm here, even though I'm places I am here. So now. Yeah, that routine. If it's not there. I think that could go a long way towards building your kids emotional health.Hannah Choi 26:13Yeah, and I that was something that I heard a lot about, like during the height of the pandemic, when there was a lot of, you know, when we were all stuck at home, that that we ate dinner together. And it was so nice. I heard that from so many people. Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything else you'd like to add about managing transitions and dealing with all the feelings around those?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 26:36I think we've said it, but it bears repeating that I think it's important to normalize that these transitions are stressful. So the more we can actively say, yep, starting school is right. Like there's parts of it that are really hard. Starting something new is usually hard change is usually hard. We as humans don't usually like to go from one thing to a new thing, like there's an adjustment, there's an adjustment to that the more we can normalize it, there's going to be stress for that there's going to be stress for everybody in the family, not just the kid going to, to school,Hannah Choi 27:19you know, the past two years, two and a half years has added a level of stress that maybe now it's not as overt. Right. It's not as in our face now. But the that low level vibration of stress that we are still all feeling whether we are aware of it or not, I imagine makes everything just like a little bit or a lot harder. Yeah. Depending on the person.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 27:48Oh, I think there's so much yet to come out about all of this. Right. I think there was a book released maybe in the last month, right about the negative impacts educationally academically, which is kind of scathing, it's it's, it's, it's a little brutal. And that I'm sure that's the first of many, what what I'm seeing kids across the board, struggle with it that was always there. But I I you know, in terms of the Android, like you're talking about that little little vibration, so for some it's a low level of vibration, and others it's like it was before the pandemic. And now it's a full fledged problem. Our social skills, yes. Right. And that that covers a whole lot of ground. So I can get more specific about that. Very low lowered distress tolerance. I'm going to define that. As you know, Life is stressful. We wake up in the morning, like, if we're going to get out of bed, we're going to experience some stress. Plain and simple. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Lisa Damour.Hannah Choi 28:59Oh, yes. I actually have one of her books. I haven't read it yet. But uh, yeah, she's,Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 29:03I just think she's great. I've had the good fortune of being in an audience, hearing her talk a couple of times, actually. And she's the one who said, you know, like, if you're going to get out of bed in the morning, you're going to experience stress, like that's just a given. But then the body in the mind's capacity then to like, manage that and kind of get on with it and deal with the day is a measure of your tolerance of that stress. And what I'm seeing, I think profoundly, actually, is it doesn't take much, yeah, to feel pretty overwhelmed. Pretty ready to say, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. That's not happening today. I don't want to talk to this person, you know, in a way that it wasn't. It's different. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:59I mean, If my sister and I were just talking recently about how, before the pandemic, like me, I'm an extrovert and I love socializing. I love planning parties, and I love planning a chance to go out with friends or to, you know, connect with other people. And I find it difficult now, which is crazy, because it was something that I craved doing before. And I have to force myself to do now. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's getting better getting much. Yeah. I had a party this weekend!Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 30:28Yeah, that does kind of make you go, wow. Like, yeah, yeah. And you don't know what's happening to you. But then, yeah, yeah. The third thing that it saddens me to say it, but I I, and I don't know, honestly, how much of this is truly actually anxiety, but it gets it manifests as cynicism. But that kind of like writing things off? Um, is there's an awareness of the world that I think is like inevitable. Like, I think it just like I don't think there was any way to avoid that and for for our kids and our teens. But I think what what I'm seeing coming with that is a cynicism. That is that is new. And I find that really sad.Hannah Choi 31:15Yeah. And how does that manifest like, how do you? What do you see that?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:20I guess maybe a better word, maybe a more clinical word to use was, would be more more hopelessness, more more sense of doom, more sense of like, what's the point? More apathy? Yeah, and that it's heartbreaking. Yeah. That is heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 31:40Yeah. And I suppose the repeated exposure to things not working out? Yes. You know, make sense that Yeah. Start to believe that that's true.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:49Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've lived through a very challenging health crisis, but we have many, many other you know, you know, the, the meme of the the dumpster on fire. Yeah. You know, that we connect with that. And our kids do, too. And I, how then how does how does a kid brain process that? What did you know? When Where did where did they go from there?Hannah Choi 32:19I have struggled, well not struggled. But for much of my adult life, I would like to become someone who meditates. It's something that I I like I've read a lot about the science, and I understand why it's good for us. And I have experienced the benefits of it the few times that I have gotten myself to meditate, but I cannot. Yet I have not yet yet. I'm trying to use theRachel Hulstein-Lowe 32:39growth mindset, language, open mindset, because I have notHannah Choi 32:43yet built it into a built a practice of it into my life, which I'm sure would help me deal with the fallout of the pandemic. You know, how do you how do you from your perspective, how do you support someone who, you know, is open to trying something does try it and then wants to, you know, feels the benefit of it, and then wants to keep that as a practice that they that they do in their life?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 33:09Well, if we're talking specifically about, like, a mindfulness or meditation practice, something I really encourage my clients to think about and honestly, myself, right, is that mindfulness doesn't have to be sitting in full lotus on a mat. Being quiet. It can be, it can be, but not everybody's going to gonna do that. And that and that's fine. That's, that's, I don't, I don't think that was anybody's intention, right of kind of, like expanding this idea of, of, of mindfulness and meditation practice. So there's a lot of ways to come at it, that might be more palatable, depending on who you are. Um, so one of the ways I really like to introduce it to people who are like, yeah, that's not me. Because I hear that a lot. And that makes sense. It isn't, yeah, that that particular way that isn't that isn't everybody, um, is the idea of taking something that you do habitually, every day, maybe even multiple times a day and do it slightly differently. So an example of that could be brushing your hair, brushing your teeth, getting out of the shower. Okay, these habitual acts, and I say habitual in very intentionally because it has to be something that you are doing really on autopilot. HannahChoi 34:45Yeah, where you don't think you don't think about it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:48 You just do it, and then it's done. And if anybody asks you, how did you do that? You'd be like, I don't know.Hannah Choi 34:55I don't know. I just did it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:58I just do it. So, how do you change it up? So, here's a silly one. You know, like, if you put makeup on, let's say you put on mascara, you start on the on the opposite. Or you hold the one with the other hand. Yeah. Oh God, oh, or you brush your teeth, you brush your teeth, you probably start on the same side. Every time. Don't be stopped and thought about it, you would have to go to a different place.Hannah Choi 35:31Okay, okay, or like dry your body off in a different order? Yeah. Ah, okay.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 35:37Exactly. Exactly. So it's really simple. It's just so so so simple, basic stuff.Hannah Choi 35:49And there's that and it works because it makes you bring your attention back to the thing that you're doing. Like, you start to wander off. And then you're like, wait, as I'm drying my arm, I'm drying at this point, when normally I'd be at my leg or whatever.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:01Yeah, yeah. Okay. And thanks for saying that. Because mindfulness again is not about like, OmmmmmHannah Choi 36:07yeah, right. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:09Oh, that's the image we had. Right, right - mindfulness. Really, I think the way I think about a mindfulness practice is that I'm present moment focused. And my, I'm bringing as many of my senses into that present moment as possible. So I'm right here right now. I'm not rehashing the conversation I had before logging in with you. Any more than I'm anticipating the session? I have at one o'clock. Yeah, I'm right here. Yeah, so in my body. I'm in this I'm in this moment. Um, and so again, like did that doesn't have to be this. So yeah. So if I have to think about that, where that towel is, then I'm thinking about my hand. I'm feeling the towel. Right? I am. I'm very aware of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to last a long period of time. And every time like you, you're you're very naturally you're our we have monkey brains like we do. They jump around. That's what they do. That doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It means every time we catch that we have a monkey brain. Every time we realize, Oh, I'm not thinking about toweling myself off anymore. Right. We were mindful. Like success done. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You just practice mindfulness. Which I, you know, I, I hope that that approach, that that approach for me when I was taught that way, to me, it was like it totally demystified it and made it like, oh, I can do that.Hannah Choi 37:59Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like I'm feeling really, it's funny. This conversation does actually, like, make me feel a little bit a little bit better about my about myself, because I do see it as like a sitting and, and breathing and bringing myself back to my feeling the pressure of my, you know, butt on the floor, whatever. Like they always say, but, but it doesn't have to be that way.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 38:26No, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no one is going to argue the value of having a dedicated meditative practice. Yeah, there is. I mean, there is data, it is phenomenal. Actually, it's phenomenal. So I would in no way discourage you from working towards that.Hannah Choi 38:48Yes. Right. And that's my point. I guess that's my point is that I am I am going to use the our idea of of switching things up and seeing that and valuing that as mindfulness to see the benefit to help me get to sit and feel my butt on the floor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:07Yeah. Yeah. I want to add one other really critical piece. Yeah. And that is non judgment.Hannah Choi 39:16Yes. Yes.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:19So I think that one gets missed. Because we, we don't do a meditation perfection. We do a meditation practice, right? These philosophies. These ideas are based, right, like a basic tenant of them is that we're present moment focused non judgmentally. So however, I'm showing up whatever's going on however many times I have to catch myself right. Right in in in a 60 minute is 60 seconds. My mind wanders 60 times. Right? Who cares? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So that's not something that we come to immediately. Right that, that I think, honestly, I think that piece of it is harder. Yeah. Then the redirecting the brain, yeah.Hannah Choi 40:19Right. Right. Especially because we get, you know, throughout our lives, we get so many messages that say, we are being judged. You know, we are told that with grades and at work, and, yeah, it's, so separating yourself from that kind of thinking is challenging is really hard, you what you what you just said about how it's not just the pandemic that we've been dealing with, but a whole lot of other really deeply emotional and traumatic events that have happened, you know, for people at and, you know, related directly to the pandemic, like death and illness and long COVID. And then the really sad stuff that's going on, you know, with racism, and, and school shootings, and just, you know, the stress of the government and climate, you know, that that kind of stuff really impacts us as adults, because we are much more cognizant of what's going on, we really, you know, we're aware of it, we are exposed much more directly to it than our children are. But our children can also be exposed to it in ways that we can't regulate, like, we don't know exactly what they're being exposed to and how they're how they're getting the information, like, we know how we're getting it, but we don't know how they're getting it. Yes. So what are some things that we as parents and also as caregivers, because I'm sure there are people listening that are not parents, but they are there they interact with children? And in some way, how do we approach that those interactions in a developmentally appropriate way, in a way that we are comfortable with, and a way that, you know, both supports them meets their needs and protects them at the same time? Sounds pretty daunting to me, I know, as a parent with my own kids, I, it's yeah, it's hard.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 42:13It is daunting. And what that reminds me of not to go too far off on a tangent, but I do think it's really relevant is, is, you know, we were just talking about this common denominator of living through of living through this pandemic, and how that's been this equalizer in terms of like, it's all something that we can talk about, we've all struggled with it, we've all had our own lives impacted, literally every person, right? So and there's a real opportunity to kind of come together through that in terms of that shared experience. So what that has meant for me as a provider, and where I think this is so relevant than when we're talking about, you know, as a parent, or as an adult, interacting with a kid about these other world events, is having a decent way of like checking in with myself, like, where am I at, with this, and am I regulated. And to be able to have this conversation to be able to kind of step in to this space with this, this person. And at times, having to, you know, being being able to say, while this is really hard for me to talk about, or I haven't quite wrapped my head around where I'm at, with this, I, I'm really sad about this, this really makes me angry, like being able to name what we have as adults, hopefully, as we've got a little more skill in being able to recognize what our own emotional state is, and a little more capacity to be able to verbalize that in an appropriate way. So that's not only like, just like good human behavior, but it's also really good modeling for kids. So I think like, that's got to be our starting place is like, Am I like, Am I okay, enough? If I checked my own ideas about this, have I had an opportunity to process this? And digest it enough that I can, you know, have a conversation about it? Yeah. And if I if I'm not, then do I have time to do that work? Or can I say, Wow, I don't you know, I want to talk about this? This is important and it's really bothering me to like maybe that's like maybe that's enough. I have been really pleasantly surprised but surprised about how much of this content has been coming up for my my kid in particular in high in high school that the vast majority of their knowing is coming from is coming from class. So it's been really like a very personal it's been really used We'll just say, Okay, well tell me about that class discussion, because then I at least I have a, I know where their starting place is. Right. But I think it can be useful to just say that, you know, there might be a lot of other ways of looking at it. Hannah Choi 45:15Mm hmm. Yeah. Teaching some of that perspective-taking andRachel Hulstein-Lowe 45:19yeah, that's some of that perspective taking, um, and sometimes our kids may have already taken a side on it. And it's, you know, it's worth kind of understanding where where they're at, they might just be really, really activated, they might be really scared. And again, like, that goes back to kind of where we started this whole conversation of like, well, let's, let's focus in on that. What's that emotional piece like, and under showing that understanding and Pat and compassion for, you know, whatever the fear is, it's coming up, or the anger that's coming up, the outrage is coming up.Hannah Choi 45:55And that we we have feelings about it too. And we can have different feelings about it, or we can share feelings about Yeah, I think it's such a great opportunity, something that you said, it's made me think that it's conversations around challenging topics, like this is such a great opportunity to teach kids the value of not having black and white thinking, and not even just the value of not doing black and white thinking but how, like how to not think that way. And you reminds me of the conversation that I had with Jackie Wolfman, who is a dialectical behavior therapist. And the whole idea of being able to hold opposite feelings about one thing at the same time. And, and also that extends to relationship with your family, like you might feel differently about something than your child or than your parent, but you can still connect and love each other and right, have a relationship.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 46:59So another kind of another example of that, in my own in my own household, is my daughter getting a lot of information about about political things, and having very strong opinions, and having classmates with very opposing opinions. And that was an opportunity to to have kind of that dialectical. Right conversation about, you can agree and still be respectful. Yeah, you can agree and actually still like this, you can disagree and actually still like this person?Hannah Choi 47:33Yeah. Well, I lived it, because I'm a Red Sox fan. And I married a Yankees fan. So yeah.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:42Well, you're living it every day. Hannah Choi 47:44I am, I am. Before we go, can you share with our listeners where they can find you?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:54Yeah, so I'm physically located in Needham, Massachusetts. So for anyone who's in the in local to me in the metro west Boston area, they can find me at the phone number 617-470-9035. But I also have a lot of digital content and plan on offering more in terms of guaranteeing webinars, anxiety classes and strategies for kiddos. And you can find all that on my website and register for upcoming stuff at www.parentcoach.info. In fact, I've got a in person class for kids called fear busters for kids this Thursday, October 6, and I have a parenting webinar the following day, Friday, October 7. And people literally can log in from anywhere for that. Yeah. So thanks again, Hannah.Hannah Choi 48:54Thank you so much, Rachel. Wonderful conversation. I feel like I could talk to you all day. It's really, really interesting.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 49:03Wow, it's been really nice.Hannah Choi 49:07And that's our show. For today. We'll be back with more interesting conversations, tips and tricks for improving your executive function skills, and stories of success from people who are working on their own executive function skills. Thank you for being here for our second season and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we cover in each episode of Focus forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the topic. You can now find us on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and Spotify so be sure to add us. Thanks for listening

People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it’s rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination! This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I’ve learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at hchoi@beyondbooksmart.com if you have any suggestions for future episodes! Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:Why We ProcrastinateSirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future SelfWhy People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey MarksInside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim UrbanThis is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.Tips and TricksPeg Dawson’s Task Initiation Obstacles WorksheetsFor StudentsFor AdultsSteps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.BooksIt’s About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda SapadinAtomic Habits by James ClearEat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian TracyList of Books by Russell BarkleyContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingMusic credits: Aso - Sunsetsleavv - VoyageAmbient Guitar - WestlakePurpose - Jonny EastonGateKeeper - The Piano SaysInto the Light - Chill Acoustic GuitarAcoustic Folk Instrumental - HydeTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Do you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01Sometimes. Hannah Choi 00:02Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard. Hannah Choi 00:09And what do you do to get yourself going? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it. Hannah Choi 00:22Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to. Hannah Choi 01:06I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful. Hannah Choi 03:28But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks. Hannah Choi 07:36Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37100%? Absolutely. All the time!Hannah Choi 07:40Do you know why? Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.Hannah Choi 07:53Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done. Hannah Choi 08:33Why not? Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33 I because I procrastinate because I hate it.Hannah Choi 08:36Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves. Hannah Choi 09:08So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it. Hannah Choi 09:52Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time. Hannah Choi 11:54And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out. Hannah Choi 13:58Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.Hannah Choi 14:35You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck. Hannah Choi 15:32Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared. Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going. Hannah Choi 17:06Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down toHannah Choi 17:43Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect. Hannah Choi 18:56Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy. Hannah Choi 19:36I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency. Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there. Hannah Choi 21:58I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance. Hannah Choi 22:13Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too. Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination. Hannah Choi 24:34If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself. Hannah Choi 24:57This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.Hannah Choi 26:13I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating? Hannah Choi 27:34Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?