Disorder
Jason Pack & Evergreen Podcasts
Are you fed up with the never ending crises in the news? Are you looking for Order amidst the Disorder? Listen to the Disorder Podcast as we offer forward thinking solutions to the biggest challenges of the day.
We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder.
Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world.
To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club
Website: https://disordershow.com/
We are living through an age of unrivaled disorder: an out-of-control Trump Administration, never ending scandals, escalating threats from China, Iran, and Russia, and the rapid march of destabilizing tech. The “good guys” - rules-based ordering centrists - are on the back foot, while neo-populist strongmen gain ground by fuelling more and more chaos. But there are ways out of this mess. Join us as we Order the Disorder.
Each week, host Jason Pack, co-hosts Jane Kinnimont and Mark Lobel, world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, present their solutions to problems like: why are centrists losing and populist strongmen winning? How do we save our democracies? How do we deal with threats from Disorderers like Iran and Russia? And how do we build multilateral coalitions that work, how can we regulate AI, defend Ukraine, and fight climate change? All in a world without American leadership? Disorder is the go-to podcast for anyone who wants intelligent, thoughtful solutions to the Disorder engulfing our mad mad mad mad world.
To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club
Website: https://disordershow.com/
Episodes
Mentioned books
Dec 5, 2023 • 47min
Ep14. Is Disinformation Destroying Democracy?
Disinformation and culture wars are an existential problem for democracies. They foster negative feedback loops: whereby internal divisions inside democracies make us more vulnerable to hostile external actors spewing misinformation, who then exploit those divisions to create more vulnerability to misinformation, culminating in culture wars. These kind of negative feedback loops are another symptom of our era of Global Enduring Disorder. In this week’s episode, Alex and Jason are joined by Laura Thornton, Senior Vice President for democracy at GMF. They discuss how social media algorithms promote disinformation, culture wars, and a rise in contempt for experts. In the Ordering the Disorder section, they’ll talk about the fight for neutral facts and how we could rethink our electoral systems to strengthen our democracies in the UK and US. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/unregulated-cyberspace Producer: George McDonaghExec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Brian Klaas’ article on Trump and Mark Milley here For more on Laura Thornton’s work visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 28, 2023 • 47min
Ep13. It’s getting hot in here
Climate change is the perfect example of what happens on a pressing global challenge when no one leads, or even takes responsibility, for a collective action problem – nothing happens, the crisis builds until it becomes seemingly unmanageable/unfixable. Without strong collective action and tough compromises, climate change will get more and more geopolitically intractable making life saving compromises even harder. In this episode, Fiona Harvey explores the importance coordination mechanisms such as COP summits, while Arthur Snell explores the vulnerability of developing island states, the potential next climate great battleground -- the Arctic -- and the role medium powers such as the UK could play in coordinating climate policy. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more from Fiona Harvey, visit here Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind The Lines, here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 23, 2023 • 29min
Bonus Episode: NATO, Europe, China, and the Israel-Hamas War
In a special Thanksgiving bonus episode of the podcast, Jason is joined by Alessandro Politi, the Director of the NATO Defense College Foundation in Rome. They discuss: Alessandro’s Axis lineage, what role if any NATO has in the Middle East, what Europe’s unique role should be in the Israel-Hamas war (potentially as a counterbalance to America), how global affairs look from Taiwan (where Alessandro just was), and whether the Ukraine-Russia and Israel-Gaza Wars might act as a detonator for larger US and China tensions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Alessandro’s writing on China here More on the NATO Defense College Foundation can be found here Listen to Jason appearing alongside Gershon Baskin discussing hostage negotiations and scenarios for Post-War Gaza here For more on what Europe is proposing in the Middle East, read ‘Germany suggests UN take control in Gaza after Israel-Hamas war ends’ here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 21, 2023 • 46min
Ep12. Neo-Populism in the US with Tom Malinowski
In this week’s episode, Alex and Jason are joined by former US congressman Tom Malinowski (D-NJ). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Malinowski. In addition to talking about why Tom ziplined to his wedding, they discuss: how to end the war in Ukraine, smear campaigns in American elections, Russian misinformation, why democracy seems to be on the back foot globally, how American and British Neo-populism is connected to the rise of authoritarianism abroad, and why the US and UK experience so many structural inefficiencies when building railroads and highways. Twitter: @DisorderShow Read Tom’s thoughts about how to end the war in Ukraine, here: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/08/18/how-to-end-ukraine-war-00111752 Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more on Tom, visit https://twitter.com/Malinowski Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here Read Jason’s recent writing, ‘The Road to Middle East Peace Runs Through Doha’ hereFor all who are interested in 'the definitive' reading of how The Global Enduring Disorder (including the divisiveness and ineffectiveness of Neopopulism) caused the war in Gaza listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris’s Making Sense here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 14, 2023 • 51min
Ep11. The Psychology of Chaos
Diplomacy is a game, and geopolitics is a psychological sport. Though we may root for the ‘democratic good guys’, it is often the disordering ‘autocratic bad guys’ that achieve their aims through effective use of psychological tactics like bluffing and intimidation. In this episode, we meet Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair’s former Chief of Staff, who helped negotiate landmark treaties like the Good Friday Agreement. He tells us how our leaders could use various skills to get to mutually beneficial agreements. We’ll also meet Kenneth Dekleva, a former US diplomat and a Professor of Psychiatry, who will present certain ways we can psychologically outfox disorderers like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Jonathan Powell’s Majestic work on the Negotiations in Northern Ireland is hereGet Kenneth Dekleva’s latest books. The Last Violinist here Read a recent article by Kenneth here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Nov 7, 2023 • 40min
Ep10. How international actors can stabilize the ongoing Israel-Hamas War and prevent a regional escalation
In this episode, Alex Hall Hall talks to Tom Fletcher, the former British Ambassador to Lebanon. Tom and Alex discuss the Palestinian refugee and surrounding Arab states narratives as an entry point to examine whether there’s any risk of the war spreading. They delve deeper into: the rationale for humanitarian de-escalation, the interests and motives of players like Lebanon, Hezbollah and Iran, and what international actors like the UK, the US and the UN need to be doing to stabilize the situation, and how they can be working towards longer term solutions. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Tom Fletcher’s writing around this issue at here You can listen to Jason’s take on the regional context on the PREVAIL podcast here You can read current Alex’s writing around this issue here Read, As dark as things seem, the war in Gaza could end up restarting the peace process here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 30, 2023 • 57min
Ep9. The 2023 Israeli - Hamas war: Could the Qataris help us order the disorder
As the Israeli-Hamas war enters a new phase, Alex and Jason discuss how hard it is to speak publicly and diplomatically about an issue that’s become so partisan and so emotive. Plus: the pair talk about Jason’s idea for interim post-war governance of Gaza involving a Qatari-Saudi-Egyptian-Emirati condominium which would need to be mediated by American and British diplomats. Although only a medium-term solution, Jason believes it could give key regional players a stake in forging peace in the region.Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Read Jason’s Article, “Qatar is the key to peace in postwar Gaza” here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 24, 2023 • 49min
Ep8. Rules for the Ungoverned
Across the world, there are vast swathes of the planet (especially our oceans and atmosphere) that have been left without governance, and into that space have stepped terrorist groups, disordering non-state actors, drug cartels, and polluting and exploitative corporations. So how can global institutions help bring a semblance of order back to these places ? In this episode, Sam Quinones will help us look at how rogue actors have helped to perpetuate disorder across the world – for example, in Mexico where drug cartels turn the absence of governance into proift. Harold A. Trinkunas talks to us about how ungoverned spaces in Venezula and other failed States came to be and what their existence says about our era of disorder. In the conclusion, Alex and Jason ‘Order the Disorder’ propose how communities and interested institution can mitigate the disordering impact of spaces that are without global governance. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Get Harold’s co-authored book, Ungoverned Spaces: Alternatives to state authority in an era of softened sovereignty here For more on Sam Quinones, visit here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 17, 2023 • 55min
Ep7. Dirty money is everywhere, as Wall St and St Petersburg are on the same page
From London to Miami, illicit cash has been flowing through the West’s financial systems. Coordination failures have allowed disruptors like Russia to prop up a transnational kleptocracy – while groups like the UN, IMF and NATO are ill-equipped to deal with this problem, especially as key players in Britain and America, actively encourage the financial deregulation on which the kleptocrats thrive. In this episode we look at the origins of globalized finance and how illicit money flows cause global disorder by empowering thieves and increasing inequality, and what can be done to stop the spread of dirty cash. Peter Geoghegan explains how illicit money influences British politics. Tena Prelec examines the role of Eastern Europe and sketches how the answer out of our current mess is to advocate for radical transparency. In the Ordering the Disorder segment we showcase why we should focus on ordering our own house first rather than focusing on the sins of our systemic competitors. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/nato-and-adversaries Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links For more on Peter Geoghegan is here For more on Tena Prelec, visit hereMore on this kleptocracy and tax havens can be found here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Oct 12, 2023 • 37min
Bonus Episode: The 2023 Israeli-Hamas war: A Symptom of our era of Disorder?
On Saturday October the 7th the world awoke to the most horrific, chaotic, and game changing Arab-Israeli war in 50 years. But despite how tragic the news was, it wasn’t at all surprising. Internal divisions and partisan dysfunction inside previously functioning democracies (like Israel) have left previously secure and united societies, divided and open to their enemies. This has been an open invitation to those who wish to actively disorder global affairs. In this bonus episode, Jason Pack and David Patrikarakos discuss how, in our era of disorder, conflicts in one part of the world create immediate disordering reactions elsewhere. They’ll also talk about David’s time in Gaza, Jason’s conversations with anti-Semitic cab drivers in Lebanon and the West Bank, and how the internet radicalizes reporting on this conflict. Jason and David disagree agreeably about whether Hamas has already won this war. Finally, they’ll try to suggest ways out of this conflict, as they try to Order the Disorder. Twitter: @DisorderShow Website: https://natoandtheglobalenduringdisorder.com/ Producer: George McDonagh Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Show Notes Links Subscribe to the Disorder Show Monthly Newsletter here For depth on the historical context of the War: listen to Jason on Arthur Snell’s Behind the Lines here Brett Stevens NYT Op-ed on potential solutions here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
