Lawyers Who Learn

Joe Green has spent the last several years building one of the most ambitious AI and innovation programs in BigLaw — not by chasing the hottest tools, but by asking harder questions about how law firms actually create value and what has to change for that to evolve. He knows the real transformation won't come from product launches or conference buzz. It'll happen when firms feel actual business pressure: fewer billable hours because work takes less time, or clients demanding new ways to buy legal services. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores both Joe's innovation work at Gunderson Dettmer and the winding path that got him there. After seven years as a transactional associate — first at Simpson Thacher and then at Gunderson Dettmer — Joe was a skilled deal lawyer who struggled to feel genuinely energized by the work. The demands of managing complex, fast-moving transactions occupied every corner of his mental bandwidth, leaving little room to envision what else he might want to do. Getting to a place where he could think clearly about what came next took years of deliberate effort. Writing changed everything. Joe discovered that co-authoring law review articles — something most practicing BigLaw lawyers never do — opened unexpected doors, eventually leading him to Practical Law at Thomson Reuters and then back to Gunderson in a completely reimagined role. Now he teaches startup/VC law at Penn Law, reads neuroscience books on his train commute, and thinks deeply about how AI will reshape legal training. His advice works for both innovation and careers: experiment with what interests you, stay ready to pivot, and trust that meaningful change rarely follows a straight line.

Lauren Hakala knew her path would be different the moment she heard a colleague gush about an incoming deal. They were having wine after work, and while the woman talked excitedly about her next deal, Lauren realized something crucial: she'd never felt that way about her own work, so it was time to find a different path. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Lauren transformed six years of corporate law experience at Cleary Gottlieb into a career helping law firm leaders manage their talent programs. As Senior Director of Global Learning at Reed Smith, she leads a 15-person team supporting lawyers across 30+ offices worldwide, designing programs on legal skills, business development, financial acumen, and leadership skills. Her journey included a pivotal stop at Practical Law during its US launch, where she worked alongside future legal innovators before Paul, Weiss took a chance on her, hiring her to make a pivot into professional development for its global transactional groups. Lauren introduces her "near pizza" concept: the difference between waiting in line with friends for the perfect slice versus pressing a button for delivery. Both get you pizza, but only one creates a meaningful experience. As GenAI makes legal work more efficient, she challenges the profession to preserve the friction that gives learning meaning—the stories, emotions, and human connections that build trust and that no algorithm can replace. Her approach uses technology to handle the basics so people can focus on what truly matters. Beyond her current role, Lauren spent over two years managing week-long Harvard Law Executive Training programs at her previous firm, learning strategy and financial literacy alongside lawyers. She's also accidentally met every New York City mayor since Giuliani, including her Park Slope neighbor Bill de Blasio.

Jason Levin wrote an entire book challenging a simple truth: we say "keep in touch" but really mean goodbye, so what if lawyers actually executed on those three words? For 15 years, he's trained new partners and practice groups on business development rooted in social science: the strength of weak ties, six degrees of separation, and the power of dormant connections. His message is simple but transformative—your casual relationships matter more than you think, and most attorneys ignore them completely. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Jason built his career teaching the one skill law schools never cover. His path started as a high school file clerk at a New Jersey law firm, because he was the babysitter for one of the firm’s partners.  She once told him, “If you can get my kids to bed on time, you can certainly handle our practice group’s files.” It was that early experience which solidified his interest in building relationships. Jason went on to an MBA at Georgetown University, spent five years in France following a Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship, led sales teams at Home - Vault selling to law firms, and eventually launched his own practice of training business development to attorneys, accountants, and executive search firms. The conversation reveals an unexpected vulnerability when Jason shares his ADHD diagnosis from three years ago. The kid who couldn't understand social cues in elementary school, who would blurt out comments five minutes too late, systematically taught himself active listening and relationship skills through social science research. By senior year of high school, he was voted most talkative. His philosophy of "let them say no" rejects the double rejection we create in our minds, showing how intentionality transforms networking from obligation into authentic connection.

For years working in Big Law business development at firms like Pillsbury, Sherman & Sterling (now A&O Shearman), and McDermott Will & Emery, Megan Senese thought attorneys had it all figured out. Then she left to co-found Stage, and lawyers started opening up about their real challenges: the same struggles with impossible demands and professional uncertainty she'd experienced herself. That realization didn't just change her perspective; it became the foundation for an entirely new approach to helping legal professionals grow their practices. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Megan built a business around what Big Law couldn't provide: dedicated, personalized support for individual attorneys. Stage offers fractional marketing and business development tailored to what actually works for each person, whether that's leaning into conferences for an energy regulatory lawyer or creating content strategies for someone who thrives behind the scenes rather than at networking events. Megan shares actionable frameworks that work. She applies Dr. Becky Kennedy's parenting concept of "the most generous interpretation" to transform how attorneys handle unanswered emails and perceived rejection. She draws on Dan Pink's insight that moving people beats selling them every time. Her cold outreach to the CMO of LinkedIn got an immediate yes. Her pitch to David landed this conversation. The approach is straightforward: pause long enough to understand what someone actually needs, then show them why connecting serves their interests. The conversation reveals Megan's own transformation from someone who would've never imagined entrepreneurship to co-founder of a thriving firm. When her partner put "IDEA - don't be nervous" on her Friday calendar more than three years ago, it launched a journey of redefining success on their own terms, proving that sustainable growth comes from doing work you genuinely love with people you genuinely want to help.

Tony Gerdes taught his students something unforgettable: "I can't steer a parked car." The metaphor captures his entire philosophy about professional development. You need to give him something to work with, show a willingness to try, and then he can help steer you toward growth. As Director of Professional Development at Groom Law Group, Tony brings this mindset to approximately 100 attorneys in Washington, DC, combining his theater background with a unique career journey through accounting and legal software training. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Tony's diverse background shapes his approach to attorney development. After leaving classroom teaching when he realized he was "doing the same lessons over and over," Tony discovered that being a good teacher requires being a continual learner. He applies this principle at Groom by establishing clear expectations through written documents, providing timely feedback that actually drives improvement, and workshopping associate writing samples each month. Tony's journey includes an unexpected lesson from early in his career: be careful of people claiming 30 years of experience. They might just be repeating the same year 30 times. This insight fuels his commitment to constant evolution, whether developing new workshops or balancing AI adoption with client preferences and responsible implementation. The conversation reveals Tony's philosophy that life isn't about reaching point B. It's about enjoying the dance itself, a perspective shaped by rejection from a professional theater audition that ultimately led him to direct and star in independent films while building a fulfilling career helping lawyers grow.

What happens when someone who loved reading for pleasure but actively avoided leadership books finally cracks one open — and realizes she'd been doing everything wrong? For Michele Richman, that moment didn't just change how she led. It set off a chain reaction that's now reshaping how legal professionals grow, connect, and lead. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with his sister Michele Richman, Chief People Officer at Lawline, certified coach, triathlete, and soon-to-be published author, for a candid conversation about the mentors, mindset shifts, and pivotal moments behind her rise as one of the legal industry's most compelling voices on leadership development. Michele traces her journey from resisting self-improvement books, because engaging with them meant confronting feelings of inadequacy she'd buried for years, to being transformed first by a leadership coach named Mark Green, then by Dale Carnegie and Brene Brown’s teachings, The final shift came during a pandemic-era group coaching session led by Frame of Mind Coach Kim Ades that cracked her open and changed her focus to the power of her thoughts and beliefs, as well as her vulnerability, for achieving her goals. She earned her coaching certification, built Lawline's Emerging Leaders program, and watched it generate over twelve internal promotions. From there, she took it external, speaking at legal conferences and launching a leadership empowerment program for the professionals who train and develop talent inside law firms. Her upcoming book, The Stories We Almost Don't Tell, captures the belief driving all of it: the stories we're most reluctant to share are often the most important ones to tell and the ones that help others the most.

Steven Harber's path to legal tech started in an unexpected place: selling Japanese robots to automotive factories in 1985. Fresh out of Bucknell with an East Asian studies degree and zero job prospects, he stumbled into a role that taught him the power of eliminating waste from processes. That lesson from Toyota's manufacturing philosophy would later become the foundation for three successful legal technology companies. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Harber's journey from New York Law School graduate to serial legal tech entrepreneur. After practicing law for barely a year, Harber raised his hand when his small firm needed someone with sales experience to commercialize their early document scanning technology. That decision launched a 30-year career, though not without self-doubt about whether he was pivoting because he wasn't good enough at law. Harber's philosophy challenges the Silicon Valley playbook. He calls himself a conservative entrepreneur who built profitable services businesses solving real problems rather than chasing unicorn status. But the journey was far from smooth.Navigating through the Lehman bankruptcy and dealing with challenging owners made for some very long days Today, as Executive Chairman of Cimplifi, Harber is pushing the industry toward fixed-fee AI review. His core belief, drawn from The Old Man and the Sea: you don't have to go out too far to succeed.

Matthew Galando never intended to build a 23-year career at one law firm. As a college student interning at K&L Gates, he quickly realized that while practicing law wasn’t his path, the legal industry itself was. What began as a legal administrative assistant role evolved into leading professional development for a global team of 13—shaping lawyers’ growth from a perspective grounded in strategy, talent, and organizational leadership. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Matt's unexpected journey shaped his leadership philosophy at K&L Gates. His approach centers on compassionate leadership, a concept that might seem counterintuitive in the legal world, but one Matt believes is essential because "the hardest lawyer is still a human being at the end of the day." Matt's transformation evolved by overcoming his default response of "no" after learning more about growth mindset. Now he approaches requests with "what if" thinking, opening possibilities while maintaining thoughtful boundaries. His work spans leadership development programming at every level, from high-potential managers to lateral partners, always emphasizing strategic relationship-building and fundamental skills enhanced by humanity. Drawing from his lifelong music career as a trumpet player who sits first chair in musicals and ensembles, Matt applies performance lessons to professional development: teamwork, adaptability, and the pursuit of polish – knowing that precision matters most when the spotlight is on. Whether he's reading Adam Grant or Kim Scott, his message remains consistent–lead with compassion, default to possibility, and remember that caring for your team comes first.

At 40, Chris Keefer had everything lawyers are supposed to want: partner track, jury trial wins, Indiana Supreme Court experience. He also had something else—a growing certainty that litigation was slowly crushing him. When the celebration after his biggest courtroom victory felt hollow, he knew something had to change. So he made a decision that seemed crazy to everyone around him: sell the house, move his family of five to Oregon, and spend 18 months earning a master's degree in sports product management. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Chris discovered that law school never taught him the one thing he needed most—how to be an entrepreneur. His journey from the University of Oregon back to legal practice wasn't a straight line. It included living apart from his wife Garetta and three young kids for a year, sitting face-to-face with her in a WeWork fishbowl managing a fledgling solo practice, and experiencing panic attacks while their savings dwindled. The turning point came from a couple unexpected sources: a coffee meeting with a colleague trying to understand the types of services Chris was providing, and then a book called Toothfish that taught him to stop competing in crowded markets and create his own. Those insights led Chris to "preventive law"—a framework for helping businesses peek around corners before legal problems materialize. But his real breakthrough was realizing that entrepreneurs who need legal help most can't afford traditional hourly rates. His solution became The Legal Wellness Kit, an Amazon #1 new release and bestseller that delivers hundreds of hours of practical guidance for the cost of a brief phone call with a big firm attorney. Today, as Associate General Counsel at Pacific Seafood and principal of Keefer Strategy, Chris continues building his practice while eyeing his next chapter: more writing, more teaching, and paying forward the knowledge he wished he'd had at the start. His story reveals that mid-career reinvention requires more than courage—it demands partnership, resilience, and the willingness to get comfortable being uncomfortable even when everything feels uncertain.    

Stacey had it all—managing $300-500 million brands as a marketing and advertising executive, traveling the world, leading teams. Then in her mid-thirties, she walked away from that successful career to attend law school full-time. Her colleagues thought she was crazy. For Stacey, law school felt like a vacation compared to her 80-90 hour work weeks. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Stacey's journey from brand management executive to founder of Kalamaras Law Office and later as creator of Trademarkabilities, a practical trademark training academy that has served over 200 attorneys. After working with trademark lawyers in her corporate role, Stacey realized she agreed more with the attorneys than her marketing colleagues, a revelation that sparked her midlife career pivot. Stacey's path wasn't linear. She started her first firm in 2009 after being laid off during the recession, moved in-house, then returned to Big Law again before finally restarting her firm intentionally in 2018 when her mother needed more care. The turning point came when her practical, business-focused teaching style on Lawline attracted thousands of lawyers, and clients started reaching out saying, "My attorney told me I had to watch your course." Her philosophy centers on one powerful truth: "No one is coming to save you." Whether you work for yourself or someone else, you must be your own cheerleader and self-promoter. Stacey reflects that losing two jobs in three years might have broken her at 29, but by her 40s, the business experience she gained earlier in life helped her rebuild her legal career with confidence—and with a strong sense of how to serve clients and their brands.