Public Defenseless

In this episode, Hunter is joined by two inspiring guests from Partners for Justice, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing support services to people facing criminal charges while helping public defenders protect people from incarceration and other criminal penalties. Emily Galvin Almanza is the Founder and Co-Executive Director of Partners for Justice, as well as an advocate in the Harris County Public Defender Office. Starting this organization, which is the only one of its kind in existence, she brings insights into its mission and goals. She'll share how holistic representation affects recidivism rates and why it is so effective. Then, you'll hear from Client Advocate Danielle Hopkins about how she supports her clients by telling their stories and putting the narrative back into their hands. By forcing judges and prosecutors to see her clients as whole people, carceral outcomes have declined. Finally, you'll learn about cash bail in Harris County and why it is so problematic. In fact, it's causing some innocent people to sit in prison for over a year! Emily and Danielle dream of a world where people in the indigent system always have top-notch representation. Overall, their work helps people become unstuck from the legal system, turning lives around and saving valuable resources. [Editoral Note: At the end of the episode, Danielle mentioned SB 26. She was actually refering to SB 6. Furterhmore, the amount of time people spend in Pre-Trial is now commonly ranging from 160-250 days] Key Topics and Takeaways: Emily and Danielle's background. [4:17] What Emily looks for in a client advocate. [12:31] What Danielle has learned from her time as a client advocate. [18:02] Danielle shares success stories. [28:02] How holistic representation has affected recidivism rates. [31:40] Pushback to holistic representation. [36:36] Danielle's advice to people who want to work in her role. [39:53] Where Emily wants the program to go and the roadblocks to getting there. [42:52] Assigned council. [47:36] Problems with cash bail. [54:05] Guests: Emily Galvin Almanza, Founder and Co-Executive Director Partners for Justice Danielle Hopkins, Partners for Justice Advocate Resources: Partners for Justice Follow Emily on Twitter Memorable Quotes: "Once you see the sausage getting made, I think it's hard to ever want to eat it again." (20:51, Hunter) "People who are sitting in jail today cannot wait for policy approaches that accept their suffering as a necessary cost of system change. I think part of an abolitionist approach has to be fighting for radical change, the erasure of an oppressive and racist system in a way that does not accept the non-consensual suffering of others as a necessary cost." (22:37, Emily) "I feel that this work is actually crucial to undermining the system's ability to perpetually exist as it does. And I feel that we are dismantling it. We're just dismantling it in ways that perhaps are too subtle for people to notice." (26:40, Emily) "Governments are willing to invest in their public defender once they fully understand what public defenders can do." (36:16, Emily) "I like completing things and like achieving something and doing this role, I feel like I'm tangibly doing something for clients as opposed to like feeling like I'm just constantly not able to do anything." [40:29, Danielle) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter spoke with Richard Mauro, Executive Director of the Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association, to talk all things Utah Public Defense. Not even a decade ago, Utah and Pennsylvania stood as the last two states who provided exactly zero dollars towards Public Defense. As expected, this created a patchwork system in the state that left places like Utah and Salt Lake County able to afford full time public defense offices while the more rural areas of the state were forced to rely on the cheapest flat rate contract imaginable. As a result of these flat rate contracts, a culture of met and plea arose. Surprisingly, it was the absence of appeals, despite countless stories of ineffective assistance of counsel, that drove people to start evaluating Public Defense in Utah. As alarm bells started going off, the Sixth Amendment Center's 2015 report made even more issues come to light. By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of what has gone right, wrong, and what sparked the change in Utah Public Defense. Guest: Richard Mauro, Executive Director, Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association Key Topics: How Richard got into Public Defense [5:30] Differences in Federal Public Defense and Utah's Public Defense [6:54] Utah Public Defense Before Sixth Amendment Center [8:51] How did the lack of Appeals show issues with Utah PD [11:30] Major findings of the 6AC Report [14:12] How the politics of SLC help Public Defense [18:00] What calculus went into the structure of Utah Public Defense? [22:50] How does the structure of Utah politics help Public Defense? [26:18] How does the Utah Public Defense grant system work? [29:03] Keeping the grant money coming [31:55] Long term goals of the system [38:45] Salt Lake City Public Defense successes and challenges [42:57] Resources: SLDA Website https://www.sllda.com/ Sixth Amendment Center Report https://sixthamendment.org/6ac/6AC_utahreport.pdf Utah Indigent Defense Commission https://idc.utah.gov/ Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com

Most people believe that life sentences keep people safe, but the evidence actually points to the opposite. In fact, life sentences were never originally designed to last for life. In this episode, Hunter speaks with two individuals from the Sentencing Project: Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment Alexandra Bailey and Senior Research Analyst Nazgol Ghandnoosh. They will share evidence to support their claim that safer communities can be created without harsh sentencing. Then, they'll explain ways that life imprisonment and mandatory minimum negatively affect both families and the criminal system as a whole. Alexandra and Nazgol both agree that life without parole should be abolished completely, and they'll give you more effective alternatives that could be implemented instead of harsh sentencing. By the time you're done listening, you'll be questioning whether the United States has gone too far when it comes to sentencing. Key Topics and Takeaways: Nazgol shares her background. [5:36] Why life sentences aren't actually helpful. [7:13] Tough on crime. [9:05] How lengthy sentences have impacted the criminal system. [12:49] Extreme sentences and age. [20:19] Why life without parole sentences should be abolished entirely. [41:42] Mandatory minimums. [47:30] Alternatives to harsh sentencing. [53:25] Guests: Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing Project Nazgol Ghandnoosh, Senior Research Analyst, Sentencing Project Resources: Sentencing Project Lawanda Hollister Memorable Quotes: "The death penalty needs to be abolished. It's a barbaric, antiquated punishment that does not serve any function in a modern, civilized society at all. It's gotta go away." (1:22, Hunter) "If policing and incarceration made a nation safe, this would be the safest nation on earth." (9:53 Alexandra) "When you imprison someone for decades on end, you are holding people incarcerated who are no longer a public safety risk. In several cases like this, the person who they harmed or the survivors of their crime no longer want them to even be incarcerated. But the system's hands are tied by mandatory sentencing policies." (16:25, Nazgol) "If mandatory minimums and these extreme sentences are not working, and they're not, then we need to figure out what we're gonna do about it." (27:52, Alexandra) "Life sentences and extreme sentences are not only ineffective, but they're actually counterproductive. They're preventing us from actually pursuing policies that would effectively reduce crime rates and prevent future victimization." (42:54, Nazgol) "People are human and I think we have to look at this whole system with a lot more compassion." (55:01, Alexandra) Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Raha Jorjani is an Immigration Defense Attorney in Alameda County, home of California's first public defender Immigration Representation Unit. Because our immigration law is founded on the principle that deportation is a civil issue and not a criminal proceeding which, there are few immigration specific public defender units. This denies millions of people the basic right of public defense. This episode covers the ideals of America and how our government is willfully disregarding its responsibility to help the people fleeing the countries we have destabilized. Raha shares her personal experience working with clients who may appear like criminals on paper but are often victims of wider circumstances enacted by our own government. To tell their story without those crucial details is not just dishonest but dehumanizing. Raha hopes that by sharing these stories and making Americans aware of the reality of what immigrants go through, just to have the opportunity to plead their case, we can break down these antiquated systems. Her office is the first of its kind and is being replicated across the country, hopefully to one day become the standard. America is founded on the principle that all men are created equal so it is up to us to ensure that includes the right to due process, evidentiary hearings and access to counsel. Without these standards of human treatment we are failing as Americans. Key Takeaways: [7:27] Raha's journey into the role of removal defense attorney [11:00] Providing seamless representation from one system to the next [12:40] The distinction between criminal versus civil protections [19:00] How the needs of non-citizens differ from citizens within criminal proceedings [25:30] The difficulty comes in conveying the complicated information accurately to the client [30:00] How policies have changed through each administration [39:00] The Department of Homeland Security is using detention as a litigation tool [46:10] The burden to prove why you should be given the opportunity to remain in America [50:00] Offering asylum for our benefit and not on principle [53:50] Walter's case: The consistent failings of our legal system [60:30] The opportunity we have to make a positive change Guest: Raha Jorjani, Deputy Public Defender and Supervising Supervising Immigration Defense Attorney, Alameda County Public Defender Office Resources: Alameda Public Defender Office Immigration Unit https://publicdefender.acgov.org/Immigration.page Patel v Garland https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/596/20-979/ Fong Yue Ting v. United States https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/149/698/ Demore v Kim https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/538/510/ Jennings v Rodriguez https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/583/15-1204/ Silent Holocaust Guatemala https://cja.org/what-we-do/litigation/the-guatemala-genocide-case/ Manufacturing Consent by Edward Sherman and Noam Chomsky (El Salvador) https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499 Somoza Family Dynasty of Nicaragua https://www.brown.edu/Research/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair/n-background.php Haiti https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/international/americas/haitis-president-forced-out-marines-sent-to-keep.html Chilie https://www.tni.org/es/node/1362 The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins (Indonesia, Brazil and many others) https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400 CIA Secret War (Laos and Cambodia) https://warontherocks.com/2017/02/the-secret-war-that-transformed-the-cia/ https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/511185078/america-in-laos-traces-the-militarization-of-the-cia Iran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days Title The Story of Walter Cruz-Zavala The Long Campaign to Deport Walter Cruz-Zavala (theintercept.com) https://theintercept.com/2022/09/20/walter-cruz-zavala-el-salvador-state-of-exception/ Memorable Quotes: "In the immigration system, the government can put you behind bars and then tell you it's your burden to prove. They don't have to justify why they imprisoned you. You have to justify why you should be free. So you have to prove why you're not a danger to the community, you have to prove that you're not a flight risk and Hunter, that's people who are eligible for bond." [33:40] "The power of detention is ultimately used as a litigation tool by the Department of Homeland Security. This is one of the only areas where, if you win, you stay in."[39:30] "When people end up in the deportation system, it is almost always after they have been dealt with by the criminal legal system. So even to the extent that people believe in the criminal legal system and the need for accountability and punishment; the double irony is that these folks have already been through that system, so they've already served their time." [43:40] "Our relationships with countries define how we view people. So, if we don't agree with a certain country's position, we tend to welcome people from those countries because we basically want to further entrench the idea that what's happening there is bad. Whereas other people from other countries could be facing similar types of persecution or violence and we have very many closed door policies." [50:24] Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter spoke with Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director of Civil Rights Corps, for a discussion about dismantling America's punishment bureaucracy. With his work at Civil Rights Corps, Alec brought to light the immense human suffering caused by the punishment bureaucracy by highlighting the stories of people caught in it and then pushing massive class action lawsuits. This model of story collecting, storytelling, and then systemic challenges is one the Alec hopes public defender offices around the country will replicate as the success his organization gets in challenging cash bail becomes more widespread. However great the successes have been, the bureaucracy will not crumble with a few cuts here and there. Alec, like many of Hunter's previous guests, calls for more systemic level thinking, systemic level challenges, and implores those with exposure to the usual cruelty of our legal system to collect and share those stories. With enough of those stories, Alec believes the heart's and minds of attorney and non-attorney alike will change and embrace a more just, equitable, and fair legal system Guest: Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director, Civil Rights Corps Key Topics: Alec's Career [5:30] Changing the Heart's and Minds of attorneys and non-attorneys about our legal system [7:44] The balance Public Defenders strike between the current case and the future one [24:58] The issues with Legal Academia [29:58] How to bridge the gap between different parts of the political left [33:40] Resources: Usual Cruelty by Alec Karakatsanis https://www.amazon.com/Usual-Cruelty-Complicity-Criminal-Injustice/dp/1620975270 Civil Rights Corps https://civilrightscorps.org/ Accountability New York https://accountabilityny.org/ Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com

When the whole family is involved, it can make all the difference. In this episode, Hunter speaks with three inspiring individuals out of Family Representation New York—Parent Advocate Supervisor Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Social Work Supervisor Ysmerlyn Murshed, and Senior Staff Attorney Vasili Stotis. Each one plays a very specific and important role within their organization, and they explain how they work together to make a positive difference for families in their own ways. Through this, you'll see that specialization can be a strong superpower for everyone involved in public defense. Then, they'll give you a sneak peek into what public defense is like in New York and the unique challenges it brings. Through the city funding many of Family Representation New York's programs, they are making an investment into the long-term healing of families and the system as a whole. This is a model that many of the smaller public defense offices are moving towards, and hopefully, with time more of the bigger offices can get the resources they need to put this in place. But for right now, New York serves as the perfect example of how investing in families benefits everyone. Key Topics/Takeaways: Teyora, Ysmerlyn, & Vasili share their backgrounds. [4:26] What their office does and the roles they fill. [7:09] Why specialization works so well. [11:41] Client reactions to their structure. [16:43] How being in New York City affects their work. [23:58] Why early intervention is so important. [34:04] Funding. [37:56] Ways they create a space for people to be heard. [45:34] How civil courtroom and civil proceedings are used against families. [50:24] What they hope to see in the future. [52:58] Guests: Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Parent Advocate Supervisor Ysmerlyn Murshed, Social Work Supervisor Vasili Stotis, Senior Staff Attorney Resources: Center for Family Representation New York Just Making a Change for Families Is N.Y.'s Child Weldfare System Racist? Some of its own workers say yes. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/nyregion/nyc-acs-racism-abuse-neglect.html Memorable Quotes: "I do this work because at one point in my life, I was a part of this work." (5:57, Teyora) "Public defense and everything around criminal defense or civil defense and all these things representing people is teamwork. It's a team effort. And when you don't have that team, it doesn't work well." (6:58, Hunter) "Sometimes we are the first people to listen to our clients' stories without judgment, without blaming or shaming them. So I definitely think that makes a big impact and a big difference on how we are showing up." (19:52, Teyora) "A lot of the systems in place are racist systems and that can be difficult to express in a courtroom. People don't want to hear that. And even though the systems themselves are built off of these racist policies a lot of judges and a lot of prosecutors don't want to deal with that." (32:09, Vasili) "Anyone can be impacted. We've represented case workers, we've represented doctors, nurses, parole officers. In some ways, while the system can target certain communities, it doesn't discriminate." (Ysmerlyn, 53:52) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Why do we punish people? What are the goals of punishment and the legal system? At some point in time, we stopped asking ourselves these questions and it led to a legal system that is disjointed, inconsistent, and unnecessarily cruel. Today, Hunter spoke with Kaelen Perrochet, a Law Student at UCLA Law School, to dig through some of the philosophical underpinnings of any criminal legal system. For many, people will say that we punish people because it is what they deserve, but what should our legal system look like if that were the actual justification for punishment? For others, we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, but does punishment deter anyone? Rehabilitation and restoration sound good, but can they functionally create a consistent system that people are willing to accept as being legitimate? All these questions and more will be explored in this awesome episode about the purposes of punishment! Guest: Kaelen Perrochet, Law Student, UCLA Law School Key Topics: Why study the Philosophy of Law and Punishment [5:30] What changed through studying these topics [8:30] Retribution theory [11:05] Deterrence Theory [16:00] Rehabilitation Theory [20:00] Restorative Theory [23:00] Issues with Prosecutors under various theories [26:45] Where has restorative and rehabilitative models been used? [29:35] Is punishment necessary? [33:00] Does incarceration make us safer? [38:00] Other theories [41:46] Felon Disenfranchisement and its impacts [45:45] What do each of these theories look like when taken to their logical conclusions? [54:30] Resources: Punishment and Inclusion by Andrew Dilts https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Inclusion-Membership-American-Liberalism/dp/0823262421 Punishment by Thom Brooks https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Thom-Brooks/dp/0415431824 Philosophy of Law: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Raymond Wacks https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Law-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0199687005 Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com

Can a managed assigned council system be a workable solution to indigent defense problems? Jim Bethke is the former executive director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and the current director of the Managed Assigned Counsel Office in San Antonio. In this episode, he talks about the system that he helped create and the areas he thinks still need work. There are three main types of indigent defense representation delivery models: full-time public defender, office contract counsel, and assigned counsel. Texas relies heavily on assigned council, and there are both pros and cons to that. Jim explains why the system is structured this way and its strengths and weaknesses. Then, he talks about the impressive work he's doing in San Antonio to ensure fair representation for all and the ways his office is supporting behavioral health intervention. Overall, Jim has an incredibly vast career in public defense and a wealth of knowledge to give. After listening, you'll finally know your take on assigned council in public defense. Key Topics and Takeaways: Background on Jim's career in public defense. [6:03] What surprised Jim when he took over the Texas Indigent Defense Commission. [23:16] Why Texas has managed assigned council. [25:46] Reasons some of the larger Texas cities don't have a public defender office. [32:22] Pay rates. [38:22] Behavioral health programs. [44:01] What is happening in response to Dobbs. [56:49] Where Jim wants to see the future of Texas public defense go. [1:04:23] Guest: Jim Bethke, Director, Managed Assigned Counsel Office, Bexar County, Texas Resources: How Lubbock became the model for Indigent Defense Public Defense Innovation in Texas Law Review Bexar County Managed Assigned Counsel Memorable Quotes: "We are the voice of the poor. They have no voice." (23:00, Jim) "A managed assigned council program in many regards is more challenging to run than a public defender office because you're utilizing private attorneys. They're independent contractors, and you can encourage and you can promote and you can provide support, but you can't really direct their operations like you can with an employee." (27:33, Jim) "Some folks in the private bar are not that good, but you have also some incredible talent. And if you can get that incredible talent to participate as part of your either managed assigned or private defender, in some regards, you're going to have even better than a public defender." (35:24, Jim) "In the numbers that we're dealing with in rural Texas, it's not going to break the bank to get a constitutionally compliant system that's good and fulfills our constitutional and state law requirements." (55:28, Jim) "Your rights are only as good as you can defend them in a court of law." (56:38, Hunter) Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy? All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff's aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter's the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance? Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking. Guest: Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project Key Takeaways: Jeff's career [8:30] What is impact litigation [16:24] Victory in the Tulia Case and the Lesson's learned from it [17:20] The Texas Innocence Project [21:54] Impacts of the Tim Cole Case [26:00] Learning strategy from the history NAACP Legal Fund [28:30] Countering the Conservative Legal Movement [33:38] Is Incrementalism Enough [38:30] How to balance current case vs future case [46:00] The structural/historical obstacles in many state [53:20] What happens if the system breaks [57:40] Is education the way to solve this [1:01:00] The case for hope [1:10:00] Resources: Tulia Case: https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/ https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/ Tim Cole's Case https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/ Jeff Calling out Dallas' Wrongful Conviction Issues https://innocenceproject.org/deconstructing-dallas-the-county-with-more-dna-exonerations-than-any-other/ Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project https://www.sacurrent.com/news/texas-innocence-project-founder-quits-accuses-colleagues-of-selling-out-2440927 More of Jeff's Work austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/ Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

For Public Defenders who serve in coastal areas, the story on toady's show will be all too familiar. As Hurricane Ian barrelled toward the Florida coast, a state of emergency was declared and evacuation plans started to come together, but as is almost always the case, no one thought of those incarcerated. Today, Hunter spoke with Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender in the 20th Judicial District of Florida, to discuss the impacts of the storm on those left in jail. Dating as far back as memory allows, state's failed their obligations to protect the lives of people both in and out of jail when natural disasters strike, and Hurricane Ian was no exception. For days, people, many of whom were in jail simply because they could not afford to pay bail, lived with raw sewage and without clean drinking water. Luckily, no one died from the state's neglect, but this episode serves as a powerful warning and reminder for those with a duty to protect people's lives: when a natural disaster strikes, remember the people who cannot evacuate and think of a way to keep them alive. Guest: Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender, 20th Judicial District, Florida Key Takeaways: How Kathy got into this work [6:50] Historical response to natural disasters in the 20th District [10:50] The response to Hurricane Ian in the 20th District [12:34] Who was in the Ft Meyer's jail and what conditions did they face [18:27] Why pre-trial release is so important [24:42] Impacts and the way forward after Ian [26:41] Does Florida care about the Constitution or just the part it likes? [31:00] Changes for the Future [34:43] People arrested during the storm [38:00] Advice to other Public Defenders [41:20] Resources: USA Today Coverage of those left behind after Ian More Coverage on Ian Miami New Times Coverage People left in prison during: Hurricane Katrina Hurricane Harvey Hurricane Michael Hurricane Sandy Hurricane Ike, Maria, Matthew, Irene etc. Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com