Talk About Talk - Executive & Leadership Communication Skills

Practice can elevate our performance.  But WHAT IS PRACTICE? Dr. Nadine Kelly shares how practice does not make perfect, how to practice effectively by setting intentions (WHY am I doing this and WHO do I need to be?) and the benefits of practice, including being less reactive. RESOURCES & RECOMMENDATIONS Dr. Nadine Kelly Website – YogiMD.net Podcast – https://yogimd.net/podcast “Wise Women Tea with YOGI MD” Facebook Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/465040207766142/ Recommendations: Trisha Park “Is it recess yet?” Bruce Devereaux “The Creatively Engaging” Talk About Talk podcast episode on POSTURE & BREATHING with Dr. Nadine Kelly: https://talkabouttalk.com/43-posture-breathing-with-dr-nadine-kelly-yogimd/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Podcast episode on “Mentally Preparing to Communicate with Confidence – the 4Ps Framework”: https://talkabouttalk.com/mentally-prepare-to-communicate-with-confidence/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT – WHAT IS PRACTICE? Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much for joining us to talk about practice. Dr. Nadine Kelly: Thank you for having me, Andrea, I am thrilled to be here. AW: Me too. Me too. My first question for you is, what does practice mean to you? NK: I detest the notion that practice makes perfect, because there’s no such thing and it sets people up for failure, in my opinion. And so for me, practicing means that you’re simply attempting to put your best foot forward in a safe situation. I’ll give you two examples, my yoga mat and my drum kit. So with my yoga mat, it’s a non-judgmental way to come to this medium, to show up and do my best. So it can be a positive mindset that I’m practicing, because I’m having a hard time doing that, or it can be a physical challenge. The yoga mat can be a place where I can come safely. And I’ll repeat it again without judgment. So that when I am in a real life, stressful situation, or when I want to have that tough conversation, or if I catch myself in a habit of a negative thought pattern that sets me up for failure, then I have the tools to do that, because I’ve practiced before coming to that situation. The yoga mat also gives me the opportunity while I’m practicing to find that pause between trigger and response. Practicing allows me to be less of a reactive person, and more of a responsive person. My drum kit – I’ve approached that with the very similar type “A” perfectionism. Which is why I hate “practice makes perfect” because there’s no such thing. But perfectionism is a thing. So if I’m approaching my drum kit with the same rigor and lack of joy, and I must sound like this, and I’m not achieving something that I want to achieve, then I’m taking the joy out of it. So for me personally, my drum kit has been about having a little bit of a reckoning, a discussion with myself about why I need to push myself to perfection, to show everyone… What am I proving to other people? What am I proving to myself? It’s been an opportunity for me to practice acceptance, and loving my voice, and also loving a process and a journey, and not having it always be about an outcome. AW: Okay, well, I love your point that you made right out of the gate about doing your best in a safe environment. So one of the questions that I have is, is there a difference? Really? Or should there be a difference between practicing something privately and publicly? NK: I don’t think there should be. I think that’s what the practice is about. I think that you set an intention, how you want to show up, whether you’re practicing privately, or whether you’re practicing in a group, and it may be more challenging in a group to practice self-acceptance, and not be comparing yourself to the other people. That’s what I encounter a lot with my students, this tendency to feel less worthy, or to feel like it’s a place to judge; “I can’t.” And to emphasize that. Because we’re choosing an intention. Whether we think we are or not, we are choosing to repeat that narrative, and not challenge it. AW: So would you agree that a significant part of practicing effectively is to be very conscious of our goals? You use the word intention. So it could be goals, right? NK: Sure. You’re doing something with purpose. I am a very practical person. So I believe that we can exercise choice, and we can seek clarity and purpose. So why am I coming to this yoga practice today? Why am I engaging in this practice? AW: So I love that question. I’m obsessed actually with thinking about people’s motivations. And often it’s why people say what they say and why they choose to speak or not, right? I encourage my clients to think about why am I in this meeting, for example, like what are my goals? What are our team’s goals, and it’s kind of the same thing, as we were was talking before about intentions and goal-setting. Sometimes the default for our goals and aspirations. is to compare ourselves against others. When I was growing up, I was a competitive figure skater. And we didn’t even talk about personal bests back then. It was how are you ranked in your province or your state. So by default, it was always comparing you to others. And there’s a change now, right? You even see if you’re watching a lot of sports on, you know, whether it’s track and field or figure skating or whatever it is, they show personal best scores. That’s a personal best for so and so. And they’ll be thrilled this season here that so maybe there’s a bit of a context change in terms of the mindset for where our goals or intentions are grounded. NK: I do think there’s a subtle difference. There’s a nuanced way of looking at intention and goals to me. The goal might be the outcome, and I don’t necessarily want to focus on the outcome. The intention to me is the why. And that’s a question that we don’t ask ourselves often enough, I’m going to share a quick story. Recently, my family got a Peloton bike, and therefore of us, three of us are type A personalities in this household. Me, my husband and my eldest daughter, my youngest has just been looking at us like, okay, you crazy people. But it was interesting, we had this discussion the other day, my husband, I think had just gotten off the bike, my eldest was going to exercise, we got into this discussion about the way the board the screen is set up. And so the screen is set up automatically when you log in to have your class in front of you. So you have the instructor in front of you. At the top, you have the timer. On the left-hand side of the screen, you have your heart rates, but also there’s a high five board on that side. And then on the right side is a leaderboard. Of course, the three of us use the screen very differently. AW: Interesting. NK: Yeah, it was very interesting. My husband wants all of those numbers, he finds that motivating. He wants to see where he is in the pack, and can you push himself to get farther and farther ahead. So that leaderboard is up for him. My daughter doesn’t necessarily pay much attention to that aspect of the leaderboard. She likes to see her personal best. So on the leaderboard, you’ll see your position, but you’d also see I had a five-minute personal best at this thing or whatever. Okay, so it’s a little bit more internally focused for her. Not for me, because I’m tired of competition and tired of focusing on outcomes and less on my why. I get rid of the leaderboard. I get rid of the timer. I get the screen as clear as possible. Because my why for coming to the Peloton bike is, am I proud of myself? Am I working hard? Do I feel energized? Consistent? And if I’ve accomplished all of those things, so if I’ve accomplished all those things, then that’s what I want. So when I examine my intention, my why I’m on the Peloton is very, very clear to me. It’s inside out ,not outside in. AW: Yeah, there are inward focused people and outward focus people, right. But I love your point about being conscious of it. So maybe my goal is to win the gold medal or to be first or in the case of communication skills. It’s, I need to go out there. If I’m giving a presentation, a keynote speech, I need to impress the audience, I need to entertain them, I need to teach them something, whatever the more specific goals are. But your metric is external. NK: But you’re defining an approach for yourself. Still, though, I think you’re still defining an intention. Yes, you want to connect. It is about an interaction in that specific scenario. So if you’re saying to yourself, I want to be present for this audience, I want to make sure that I am relaxed so that I can connect with them and make them laugh, I want to make sure that I am clear in my points. And I’m succinct. To me that’s a little bit different. You’re still being intentional. Yes, you want an outcome, but you’re also defining what those parameters are, and how you’re going to be cognizant of making sure you hit those points, you are defining how you’re going to show up. AW: So this is putting you on the spot. And this may become the meta point of this entire episode. So I don’t want to make you nervous here. But I just I just thought of this question, which is, whether you’re on your yoga mat, or you’re preparing for a keynote presentation, or you’re trying to acquire a new skill, say practicing the piano or whatever it is, is there a mindset is there a checklist is there one or two or three things that we should be really focusing on in terms of our mindset questions that we’re asking ourselves. And as I said, what we’re focusing on? NK: You want to make sure you’re showing up as the best version of yourself. We want that. We all want that. To me, what are the main two questions? Why am I doing this? And the second question is, who do I need to be in the scenario? Now, you know that I’m a coach at the Akimbo workshops. AW: Yes. NK: And here’s something that I’ve been asking myself when I’m coaching, these are adults globally. So who do I need to be in that scenario? I show up as the coach there. I need to be who I need to be, which means that I am not anybody’s Mother, I’m not a helicopter mom. I am there to support, I am there to witness the journey, I’m there to show empathy. So I am very clear about who I need to be when I sit down to engage with the students on that platform. When I need to sit down with one of my daughters. I’m still not a helicopter mom, but I decide who I need to be in that moment. Who do they need? At that moment? They need me to listen, or they may need a piece of advice. It depends on the conversation. But I want to have clarity as to why am I doing this? And who do I need to be? Because that varies depending on what I’m doing. AW: I love that. I love that. So why am I doing this? And who do I need to be and that relates to you and I were talking about personal brands and articulating our personal brands and then communicating it and I’m thinking our personal brands are not one sentence, right? It’s a moment, we have multiple roles that we have in our lives. And so what part of your personal brand is showing up in a different context, including when you’re practicing, because it’s very different to show up, for example, as a student who is eager to learn, right, as opposed to a performer. And I’m thinking a lot right now about a yoga studio where there’s 25 people in their mats. And I bet you subconsciously more than half of them are feeling like they’re doing a performance. NK: Absolutely, yeah, it’s competitive. It’s definitely something that I noticed in my classes because I teach a different population. We’re Wise Women, and with different physical abilities and levels. Let me give you a very typical example. A lot of shoulder issues in this population. So say we’re doing an exercise where we’re lifting both arms towards the ceiling. Invariably, I will catch a woman making a face, straining the shoulder that is hurt to try to get them both up to the same level. Or I’ll catch someone shaking her head in disappointment like she failed because she lost her balance during a pose. Or here’s another example. Oh, I’m sorry that I’m asking you a question. Or I’m sorry that I couldn’t do that. Because I feel like I’m holding up the rest of the class or, or I wish I could lift my leg like Nancy can. That’s what I’m coming back to the practice question. That’s a good opportunity to question your narratives. Right? So you can ask yourself, why do I talk to myself like this? Why am I always trying to prove myself? Can I let those things go? Because are they serving me right now? AW: Right. And I just have to say everything that you’re saying makes so much sense. And it’s such an easy jump to, if you are conscious of your internal narrative of what your brain is saying, and maybe even what you are verbally saying like, Oh, I’m sorry about this, and Oh, I wish I could do that. Then your practice will be more effective. And how do you define effectiveness? It’s not necessarily improving your skill, but it’s accomplishing whatever the goal was that you ideally, intentionally set. Right? It’s a little bit tautological, actually, because you’re focused, you have intention to focus on your goal, right? NK: Mm hmm. AW: A couple of other things. So you said you want to show up as your best self. What about sometimes just showing up, because you don’t want to lose your rhythm. You don’t want to lose your momentum. And it’s better than doing nothing. NK: Oh, that’s still showing up as your best self in my opinion. That’s being a professional. I don’t feel like reading this or preparing for this presentation or Don’t feel like teaching this class today. We’re people. I’m not in the mood right now I wish I could just go sit down and watch TV. Sure. But then you say to yourself, why am I doing this? And who do I need to be? And then when the answer to that is, I’m a professional. If I identify myself as a professional, that means that I behave as a grown woman and go do the work at that moment that is showing up as my best. Because I’m a professional and I show up when I keep my promise. AW: You keep your promise, I love that answer. I was not expecting you to say that. But that that’s absolutely true. Sometimes our best self is just the one that’s barely showing up. But we do. Yeah. So let’s just back up for a minute. And the other thing that I’m hearing is being intentional about our intentions, right? And I’m actually thinking, if we’re really, really focused on our practice, then we almost need to have a mindset of practicing our practice. NK: I hear you, yes. There’s humility to all this to you know, a yoga practice makes you so humble. And it makes you question convention, or stop to think why you’ve accepted certain things. I was doing a challenging yoga practice with a teacher I love last week, and we came into a pose that was a combination. And it wasn’t, he took us through it very slowly to get there. Okay, it wasn’t an acrobatic class. We built up to it. When we got to this pose, though, it was an arm balancing pose, but then you put one thigh up on your forearm as you’re balancing on both hands and in your arms. And then the opposite leg shoots back. Now, Nadine, eight years ago, that’s very fair, eight years ago, would have been like, Oh, I can’t do it. What’s wrong with me? I’m a failure. I should be able to stick this .I can do it. When I set my mind to do something, I do it and I’m gonna get it done no matter what. Me last Saturday, I looked at it and said, You know what, I’m not gonna do that. But I’m gonna modify it and do this instead. That’s a very different for me. That’s for you out of mindset work, you know, because I do want to show up and be nice to myself. AW: Yeah, that’s really important. NK: Especially in a very challenging practice. Just be nice. Like, it doesn’t always have to be about I got another “A,” you did it again. So you’re invincible. You’re unstoppable. It’s like, do I always have to be perfect? Aren’t there times for that? There are times for that. But not every single thing has to be approached with such fervor. AW: So my friends and I sometimes talk about it as being a gold star seeker. It’s like, hey look, another gold star! We actually joke with each other, we’ll text each other. Oh, you got another gold star today? Look what happened? Yay. That’s actually it is it’s actually I’m thinking about it. Now through a different lens after this conversation. It’s good to remind ourselves that public accolades are fantastic, but we need to be intentional about what our goal really is. NK: Yeah. AW: Okay, before I move on to the five rapid fire questions, there is one other sort of tactical thing that I want to ask you about, which is the idea of using visualization in a practice. So just a little bit of context, actually two things. One, when I was a competitive figure skater, we had a sports psychologist help us for a few years. And I have this vivid memory of her, helping us meditate getting us into a really a mindful state, and then encouraging us to do it was do our program or do a jump that you’ve been having some challenges with, and then going out on the ice and doing it. And I just one day, I just let myself be hers, right? I was like, You tell me and I’ll do it. And I was not judging myself. I was totally ignoring what anyone else was thinking about me. And she said, I want you to, in your mind, do the biggest axel jump you’ve ever done. And I went out and I did the biggest axel jump. And she swore I remember she was like, holy BLEEP. That was incredible.  And I was like, that was like an inner body experience. I said, but the thing is, I did it twice because I did it when you helped me visualize it, and then I did it physically. And fast forward to today I’m coaching executives on how to show up with confidence. And one of the tactics that I employ, and I encourage them to employ is visualizing, I call it pirating someone else’s confidence. So you can pirate someone else.  I was talking about imagining that I was Madonna when I walked out on stage to give the biggest lecture at the University of Toronto that I ever gave. And I walked out and I was all mic-ed up and I was like, I’m channeling Madonna. And it made me laugh at myself. But also, I felt like I had her confidence. And then nowadays, when I don’t feel confident, I think about myself in that experience. And I remember how it felt, and I’m visualizing myself again that way. So do you have any comments about using visualization to help us in our practice? NK: It’s a really good question. I would say I like your example of channeling Madonna. I’d like to challenge you and ask you what was it about Madonna that caused you to show up that way on because it wasn’t really Madonna? It was something about her. AW: Her swagger. She’s got swagger, man. NK: So yeah, so that’s exactly what it is. It’s that’s your why. That was your why and your Who. AW: Okay. NK: It’s something that I’ve been looking at. Because if Okay, so as podcasters anytime I listen to Terry Gross, I’m like, oh, Terry Gross. I just love her. AW: I adore her. NK: Uh huh. I and then I let my, I start to hear myself go: I want to be just like Terry, I want to be Terry Gross. And then I stopped myself and said, Okay, what’s so magnetic to you about Terry Gross? What is the inspiration? What do you admire? What is that thing? It’s the confidence is the comfort in her skin. It’s the aplomb. It’s the calm. AW: She she’s a phenomenal listener. And she’s so empathetic. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. NK: So once I identified those things. So I said, well, that kind of experience comes through practice. Yeah, it comes through practice. So I’m just gonna practice my craft, and try to show up in those ways that I admire. AW: Oh, I like that. So in my mind, it works that I pictured Madonna and then I became Madonna. But when we are practicing something, your add to that is to really think back to the intention word, be intentional. Think and challenge yourself to understand what exactly it is about that person that you are emulating? NK: Mm hmm. AW: What about the meditation and visualization? In my figure skating example, where in my mind, I mentally rehearsed doing the biggest jump I’ve ever done. Do you ever do that in yoga? NK: Not necessarily. I’ve done it with my drums. AW: Huh!?! NK: This is a little counterintuitive, but it speaks to this idea of visualization. There’s a lot of power. And I know there are studies done to this effect to where you practice mentally away from that craft. Yeah, so if I’ve been working on something, and just won’t come to me, physically, I’m having so much trouble with the coordination of it. But as of late, I’ve said to myself, okay, I’ve put in 10 focused minutes on this thing. It’s not coming together just yet. So when I’m taking a bath, or when I’m going to sleep, I can hear the music in my head, I can see it on the page. And I can imagine myself practicing it, I find that that improves the practice, when I come back to it, almost like you’ve given your mind a little bit of time to relax your mind and your body to process that thing without extra pressure, extra demands that it has to be now. So if you can picture yourself doing it, you’re also practicing away from your craft. And so then it becomes a boost to your confidence or something clicks. And then you can just execute it without overthinking it. AW: Yeah, so actually, visualizing is practicing. NK: Mm hmm. AW: Again, I wasn’t expecting that answer. Is there anything else you want to add about practice before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? NK: I would also emphasize that practice takes patience. So practicing when the stakes are not high, so that when things are heated up, you don’t just go into autopilot mode. Just go into Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People – it’s just one of my favorite books. It’s sitting here on my desk. One of the most profound things he says is that space between trigger and response, practicing gives you a little bit more of that gap… AW: Oh, I love that. NK: Yeah. And practice helps you identify your triggers. I mean, like a lot of introspection over 2020 for me, where I was able to go, Oh, I don’t like that. And this is how that shows up in different situations. I don’t like it when people say this to me, or I don’t like this way or I don’t like that. And so now I can recognize, Oh, that’s a trigger. Or my usual comeback for this. Do I have to do that right now? AW: Yeah, you can take that and use it as an analogy in practicing something physically right. practicing something in your interactions and relationships, practicing your own mental mindfulness. What what’s going on inside your brain? Wow, that’s pretty powerful. I love that. Thank you. All right, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions. The first question is, what are your pet peeves? NK: My pet peeves are people who are not willing to learn. People who lack humility, and people who insist on a black and white lens for everything. I’m right, you’re wrong, and there’s no gray. AW: Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you? NK: I am a combination of a visual and kinesthetic learner. AW: And yet, you are a podcaster and a drummer! That’s auditory. NK: but the drumming is very kinesthetic. AW: It is. NK: And visual somewhat too, because I read the music. Oh, that’s really interesting that you brought that up, because my drum teacher has been trying to have me stop using the visual as a crutch so much. So he’s been actually having me learn to sing the tunes out loud. So singing the pattern, so that I can make that connection with what I saw to what I’m hearing and feeling. So it is making me a better auditory learner? Yes. Well, I think that is not my strength. AW: You’ve got a lot of strengths, Nadine, let’s just, let’s just be honest. Okay. Question number three, introvert or extrovert. NK: I would say I lean more towards introvert. I’m much better one on one. And in small groups. As soon as it’s a big crowd. I feel like I don’t matter. And I’m never going to be that big, bold personality at a party, screaming. And I just I don’t like parties. So I’m much more of an intimate person. I like connection. AW: Okay, question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations. NK: A phone call. AW: A phone call? NK: Yeah. If the person is in my tiny circle, a really close person, yes. Okay, then I like to hear their voice. Or I like to see them. On FaceTime. AW: Last question. Is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending a lot? NK: 2020 has been a lot of introspection about what community means to me, my social circle and being healthy within my social circle. So I’ve been choosing on purpose, what I will ingest and who I want to be in that social circle. All right, so I’m gonna cheat and say three right now. Practicing empathy, being the best person I can be being a great communicator, being someone who does not. Because I’m a human being, sometimes I practice black and white thinking, but I don’t want to be that person. Okay, and I want to catch myself when I’m doing that. So I’m less judgmental, and I listen better. So I love your podcasts because you teach me how to be a better communicator. It’s just the truth. I have another friend a fellow podcaster I don’t know if you know her. But Trisha Park. She’s a dear friend of mine. “Is it recess yet?” because Trisha is one of the smartest people I know. She practices empathy. She listens, she’s warm. She is unafraid of making mistakes. And she and I have talked about that on air or airing those things. She’s very honest. I don’t. Okay, so for me, that’s brave. Yeah. And then the newest person in my social circle is a fellow podcaster. His name is Bruce Devereaux. And his podcast is called “creatively engaging.” And it combines creativity, empathy, and respect for our elders. The episode I listened to of his today was with Ashton Applewhite, who wrote “This Chair Rocks.” She was also on my podcast, but they had a really great conversation. And one of the things that Bruce did in that episode, which I really admired was he said something, and Ashton gently encouraged him to nuance the language instead of saying they for the elders, she goes, No, no, there’s no “they” we it’s “we.” We’re all connected. And he said that out loud. And so it gave me pause, because I’m phrasing it as Wise Women, my Wise Women. No, no, no, no. I’m part of that community too. AW: Yeah, absolutely. We have to be very careful with our words. We have to be very intentional with our words, don’t we? NK: Yes. AW: Our words that we’re articulating verbally and then also our self-talk. NK: Yeah, umm hmm. AW: Well, Nadine, we could go on for hours and hours. But I want to thank you so much for really illuminating for me what practice means. I’ve learned a lot from this conversation, and I thank you so much. NK: It was my pleasure to be here. I loved it. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for READING – and Talk soon!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.     The post #72 Practicing Communication Skills: WHAT IS PRACTICE? with Dr. Nadine Kelly YogiMD appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How can we be authentic without sharing TMI (too much information)? How can we be transparent, bring our “whole selves” to work, without appearing unprofessional? Copywriter and messaging strategist Tom Megginson encourages us to be authentic, but focus on our audience.  Code-switching and filtering are two ways to maintain authenticity without compromising professionalism.   RESOURCES TOM MEGGINSON LinkedIn profile – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tommegginson/ That’s a Good Story – thatsagoodstory.com PERSONAL BRANDING & AUTHENTICITY 1997 FastCompany article by Tom Peters Podcast – How to Communicate your Personal Brand Online Podcast – Optimizing your LinkedIn Profile Podcast – Choosing the Ideal Media Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: Personal Branding, Authenticity & TMI with Tom Megginson Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Tom for joining us to talk about personal branding, authenticity and TMI. Tom Megginson: Thank you very much, Andrea. AW: As I was explaining to the listeners, we recently met on LinkedIn, and you responded to a post that I created about how to communicate your personal brand online. And you actually took the time to write a comment that ended up leading to this interview. I’m just going to read the comment here quickly. So you said: “my personal brand is just the professional face that I’ve always shown to the world, now a bit more worn and wise than when I began my career in the 90s. Deciding what to show of myself is easy. What’s important, in my opinion, is to always ask oneself, is this TMI? And is this relevant to my audience? So we’ve all seen or heard TMI, and we know it when we see it? But what is TMI? TM: Well, it’s an interesting one, I’d said two things. There’s TMI, and there’s is this relevant to my audience?. And I think the latter one is probably more specific. Too much information means different things to different people. But what I’d like to start out with is to say – “is this relevant to my audience?“ is probably the number one thing that people should keep in mind. It’s really easy for us as human beings, when we’re in a one to one communication, even on a video screen here, as we’re having this interview. And to take the cues from the people, even when you’re doing public speaking, you see the people you’re talking to, you can tell if they’re bored, you can tell if they’re hanging on your every word. On social media you don’t see the people you’re talking to. And it’s very similar to me, to the way that we approach advertising. So I’ve been in advertising and copywriting for 30 years now. And in doing that, you’re always thinking about an audience, you can’t see. Because you are speaking on behalf of a brand, you’re speaking on behalf of a company as CEO, that kind of thing. And not being able to see the audience, you have to visualize the audience. And this is something that’s second nature to those of us who do this for a living, but it’s not necessarily second nature to everyone else. And so if there’s one thing I wanted to get across, it’s the idea of your audience and knowing your audience, knowing what their prejudices are, is going to be key to you getting what you want from them. AW: I love your answer. First of all, the TMI that too much, maybe a bit of a misnomer, right? Because it’s not about quantity, it’s about the substance or the content of the information. So that’s a great point. And also your point, which I’ve been saying in a slightly different context, when we’re thinking about our personal brand, we can take a lot of learnings about product branding. And you’re saying, here’s an example of that. Actually, when we’re managing a product brand, we’re always thinking about the audience and presenting ourselves for the audience, the consumer, the customer, whereas for ourselves, we’re not always doing that. So I think that’s an excellent point. And we should be doing that. So is TMI, always a bad thing, though. And speaking for myself, but most of us have been situation where we’ve said something and then gone. Oops, I think that may have been TMI it can we turn it into something good. TM: I think it depends once again, on the audience’s definition of TMI. So there are times when it’s a good idea to make an audience uncomfortable, and get them out of their comfort zone. An excellent example is talking about mental wellness, and people saying they need help. Maybe their only network is an online network, including even LinkedIn. So and ask for help on LinkedIn, there might be some who consider that TMI, I don’t, I consider it very relevant. Other things when people talk about racism, experiencing racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, you know, we’re trying to have a civilization here. And we’re trying to stamp these things out. So personally, on my personal brand, I don’t mind making people uncomfortable about that. But there are other things that do make people uncomfortable. One of the big ones for me is about how a person shows themselves online, both in words and images. Generally, I find it has to do with the person’s age, although not always, people seem to blur the lines between the different social media. You know, if you go back to some of the earlier blogs, those were about confessional, you knew that your audience was your peers, we were psychographically aligned. You could be a little more unguarded. Also, I mean, things like Instagram, they’re fairly private, you know, you can control who sees what you do, right? When you get into LinkedIn, which is where we met, and which is what I’m mostly thinking about here. It’s very hard to control the sharing of your voice and image on LinkedIn. You can control who you’re connected with. But if the people you’re connected with comment on your post, like it, engage with it in any way, it often shows up in the most unlikely places. Those are the times when I think that as you are dealing with an intergenerational audience, you have to be or you don’t have to be, you might want to consider being cautious about playing into their prejudices about generational stereotypes. For example, I’ve seen some really great thoughts put out there by young entrepreneurs on LinkedIn, but they usually include a beauty shot of themselves. Sometimes the guys are flexing, the women are pouting, it’s appropriate for their generation, right? I’m absolutely not saying this is inappropriate. What I’m saying is, once again, know your audience know that if you’re totally comfortable with that being the brand that is seen by your potential employers by your mother, you forgot that was linked to you go for it, you know, fill your boots, as they say, in the Maritimes . But at the same time understanding your audience’s biases, you can make sure that the message that you’re presenting that you have control over that message, AW: which might not be possible to your previous point, right. Okay, there’s so much to unpack there. Let’s talk about the age thing across generations. So I had this experience actually just a couple weeks ago, where a friend, actually a professional colleague of mine, was posting photos of herself wearing a bikini. And another one of my friends who’s a little bit older said, Wow, that is just shocking that she would do that. And I, I said, You know what, you’re not her target market. Like, this is this is her talking to her people. And she’s a very healthy person, and she was showing her beautifully healthy body. So why do you think it is that Gen Y and Gen Z are so much more open and prone to what we Gen Xers you and I might say qualifies as TMI? Why is that? TM: Well, it’s interesting. I mean, working with market research, I realized that demographics are necessarily stereotypes. And stereotypes are both bad and good stereotypes allow us to code switch and be able to speak to people in their language, in a way that, like I said, is relevant to them. I just wanted to preface that once again, saying I’m not shaming or blaming anyone for their age or definitely not for their cohort. But there are clear demographic stereotypes that we see. They don’t apply to everyone, but they’re generalizations and I’m 50 years old. I’ve been actually writing professionally for 30 years now. I have worked with five generations. So the silent generation, my mom’s generation, the boomers, Generation X, which is mine was born right in the middle of that cohort, millennials. And now Gen Zed, whatever you want to call them. My son’s one, I have a teenage son in that generation. There are stereotypes that don’t apply to everyone, but which are studied by marketers. So if you look at the oldest, the silent generation, they are very formal. My former boss was one of them. They’re very formal, their suit and tie. They’re very guarded, extremely guarded. Their professional face is very much contrived. It’s conformist when that was reinforced. AW: Right, if they didn’t do that you would be penalized somehow. TM: Yeah, absolutely. We’re talking about the 50s and 60s here, then the baby boomers get to be more laid back you have Richard Branson cutting people’s ties off, because he didn’t think it was appropriate to have a tie. And there are a lot of stereotypes about being cool. You know, um, you know, riding a motorcycle, wearing jeans to work in this kind of thing. But my own experience with people born in the post war era, and you know, up till Beatlemania is that they are still very guarded. Some of the generational research I did for a client once they were talking about how, if you’re a baby boomer in office, you should be the first one there in the morning. And the last one who leaves how that is translated to what I’ve seen in my own career, is people are very shy about being vulnerable, or called out about saying the wrong thing about saying anything vaguely political. And this is the irony, right? Because we’re talking about the generation who were hippies or the me generation of the 70s. Anything that causes you to stand out is to be avoided. You know, it’s that that thing of the nail that sticks up? AW: Yep. Or the tall poppy syndrome, if you stand up, you’re gonna get chopped down, right? TM: Yeah, that’s it, tall poppy. Yeah. So fast forward, people born in the late 60s and 70s, even up to 1980. Then Generation X the stereotype of our generation is cynicism. The stereotype of our generation is a certain anti authoritarianism, I would say. So we’re kind of in between course, every generation thinks it’s all about them. But to me, we’re the ones who really needed to learn what I mentioned earlier, which is code switching you In the boss’s office, you sit up straight, you speak formally to them. You are in a the office of a fellow Gen Xer, you got your feet on the desk, you’re slouching in the chair, you’re you know, whatever. And then the next generations come along. It’s not that they’re fundamentally different people, it’s that their cultural experience of growing up has been very different. So when you get into the Millennial generation, they grew up in a different environment, their parents were boomers, their parents were very old Gen Xers early Gen Xers. AW: Yeah. TM: The thing is, they grew up in a very different era, culturally, there’s this idea of protecting children of encouraging children, which is great, but the negative stereotypes people make jokes about participation, medals, right? jokes about not keeping score, and soccer games, the stereotype says that people have been told you are awesome, nothing that you do is wrong. So while our generation was busy trying to be cool to the millennials and be formal to, to the boomers, we had folks coming in, who immediately expected to have things be about them, which is great. I mean, I’m not gonna say anything bad about that. But at the same time, I did find that people were, in general, less able to take criticism. And that, to me is a red flag. Because what that red flag says is that it’s going to be harder to learn how to adapt, how to fit in, not to conform, but how to adapt to different people. Anyway, so here we are today, you know, the new generation coming up, you know, the oldest of them are in their 20s now, but there are things that I don’t really have a problem with, but don’t speak to me, like inspiration posts, validation. And by validation. I don’t mean, you know, you’re validated because you’re a woman or because you have a disability. I mean, just, I’m not feeling great today. Can you tell me how great I am. And I see that more on Twitter, but it bleeds over into LinkedIn. AW: I’m just gonna say I’ve seen that on Instagram. It’s an interesting phenomenon. TM: Yeah. Well, it’s a culture and there’s no right or wrong culture. But this is where we get back to the audience. For example, I am a guest lecturer at colleges sometimes, and I will say to the students, hey, you know, you want to get networking, send me a connection, I’ll connect with you, you know, because I can give you start. And so as soon as they’re connected to me, they’re also connected with those five generations. They are connected to people all the way up into their 70s. It’s not, I’m not saying to them, stop being yourself. I’m just saying be aware of that. I was talking to someone the other day, and it occurred to me, I don’t think that personal branding is a construct, I don’t think we construct our personal brand. What we do is we filter it. That’s a really important differentiation for me, you know, I try to be authentic all the time. I filter myself, I’m different on Twitter than I am on LinkedIn, I have filters, I have a client filter, I have a talking to students filter, I even have a filter for talking to people of different ages, because I have to be aware of a 50 year old white man, you know, I reek of privilege, I want to filter that with at least some kind of acknowledgment of self awareness. So filter sounds funny now thinking about like Instagram and tik tok and that kind of stuff. Talking to judges like a cat. But you know, but I mean a literal filter, I mean, not showing 100% of yourself to everyone, because you can’t do that. Anyway, we do it in real life. We do it when we’re visiting our parents, of course. And being with familiar coworkers is not the same as we’d be at a professional mixer, which is what LinkedIn is. So that’s what’s really important to me, it’s just get the filter, right, figure out who your audience is. AW: That reminds me, I have to tell you this quick story. I was on LinkedIn, I think it was about three years ago, at the time. And still now I’m also a painter. And so a lot of my connections on LinkedIn are also our artists, and many of them are marketers. And I remember this experience I had where one of the marketing professors that I follow posted a really cool video, it was like a visual puzzle. It’s hard to describe it. But the video ended up showing something that wasn’t what you thought it was. He had like 2000 likes on it or whatever. And I thought that’s beautiful and insightful. And it’s creative, and all these things. So I reposted it, and I got some likes and some positive comments. And then this guy lambasted me who I used to work with, like 15 years ago, and he said in the comments publicly to me, he said, shame on you, Andrea, you should know, this is not Facebook. This is not Instagram. This is not where you post your pretty pictures. And so I immediately went into messaging privately and said, great to hear from you. Thank you so much for your comments. By the way, I’m an artist and I’m still a marketer, and as far as I was concerned this is relevant to both of those audiences. And by the way, I don’t know if you noticed this, but it was originally posted by a professor and liked by 1000s. And I don’t understand what the issue is. But I respect whatever. And then he lambasted me again. So I blocked him. TM: Well, at that point, I mean, at the end of the day, you can scroll on. You can move on. I think there’s starting to be a change of conversation on social media about this saying, you know what, just because someone’s wrong in your mind, you don’t have to engage them. I would say the example you’re giving that’s out of line. Once again, I mean, do what you want to do have the brand that you want. I have friends who, their business is fitness, their product is their body, I get it. Or other, you know, artists, absolutely. They want to show their art photographers, sometimes the photography is a little saucy. Okay, that’s okay. That’s their bread and butter. Right? That’s their brand. If they’re showing a bunch of saucy photos, they’re probably not looking to photograph a stodgy CEO. AW: I love your comment, I have to say you’re going to be quoted on this the filtering, filtering like I am, who I am, I am authentic. This is 100%. me, but I am filtering. I think that’s really an empowering perspective, right? Because it’s not changing who you are. But it is filtering what part of who you are, you’re sharing with the different audiences. And I also love your comment about code switching across generations. And I’ve, I did some previous podcasts and newsletters on choosing which media is appropriate. And then I got all sorts of emails from listeners and telling me stories about you know, like, an older gentleman sent me an email, and he told me the story about how he had a big contract to award and he told the sales guy like three or four times, Call me, call me and the guy kept emailing him back and emailing him, what else do you need to know? What else do you need to know? And he’s like, this is the last time I’m saying this, pick up the phone and call me. And the guy never did. And he just he awarded the contract to someone else. So part of it is you know, your personal brand and what you’re sharing about yourself, but then this code switching between the generations even not just what you’re saying, but how you’re saying it across what medium, right? TM: That’s exactly it. I mean, we all make mistakes, right? We feel strongly about something and we make the comment, we probably shouldn’t. And that’s where the filter breaks. Oh, geez, I just put that on LinkedIn. AW: I was just gonna ask, do you have any stories? TM:  My mistakes are usually about expressing an opinion without thinking of the audience that are receiving the opinion and how they form ideas about me, I live in a world of NDAs, non disclosure agreements. So I’m used to being under a regime of having to watch what I say. But at the same time, I mean, sometimes we just get mad. And I would say, that’s where I need to, you know, mend the filter is sometimes I you know, might speak out of turn or that kind of thing. Of course, the thing is, every time you do it, you learn. And you know, the best thing your friends can do for you is give you feedback privately. AW: Yeah, feedback is such a gift, isn’t it? TM: It is and especially through your peers telling you and being more open to vulnerabilities, you also adapt, and everyone adapts. Like 10 years ago, I can’t imagine somebody talking about their struggles with depression. And now you can talk about something like that. And people are like, you’re so great. Good for you. Yeah, I’ve struggled with that as well. AW: I’m nodding my head. Sorry, I just had to jump in and say …. I interviewed Nicole German who founded the Maddy project, and it’s #shinebright. And her daughter died of suicide. And she’s all about talking about it talking about mental health and, and you know, inviting the kid who lives three doors down who always seems to be alone over for dinner and talking about mental health openly within your house and with your friends. And it’s amazing. It’s that’s an interesting point. It’s not just generally that we are becoming more transparent, maybe the filter is widening for the younger generations, right? But also there are topics specific topics that we are much more open about than we used to be TM: It’s great, isn’t it? Like they’re affecting us all. They’re moving it, they’re moving it up the generations. And so there’s the positive effect of people being more open and more vulnerable. I mean, that’s, that’s wonderful. It is. AW: So I attended an online Women in Leadership Conference recently, and at the beginning of the conference was a keynote speech by this amazing woman who I believe is in her 60s. And she’s, you know, at the pinnacle of her career of anyone’s career, this woman is absolutely phenomenal. And she made a comment that really stuck with me. Someone asked her a question that’s similar to the topic that we’re talking about right now, about authenticity and bringing your whole self to work. And her response was, I encourage you to use authenticity as your superpower. Yeah, and she’s she Like, you know, in her 60s, like I said, What do you think of that – making your transparency part of your brand? TM: And that’s fantastic. I mean, that’s, you know, we’re talking so much now about empathy. You know, empathy at one point would have been seen as weakness. And now empathy is seen as strength. Empathy is seen as a superpower. Empathy is something that brands which living things desperately wish they could convey. AW: That’s a great point, you’re reminding me of Brené Brown and all the vulnerability stuff, right? And she said that when she talks to some people on the airplane about what she does, then she would say, Well, I’m a researcher, and I study vulnerability. And depending on the person, and whether they’re familiar with her, and with the construct, they either think that vulnerability is this negative thing to be avoided? Right, or it’s a strength, and because her whole thing is about it takes courage to be vulnerable, and there are so many benefits to it. So it depends on a variety of factors, right? It depends on your personality. depends on your profession. And to your point from the very beginning, it depends on your audience. TM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s funny too, because I mean, every time I don’t know, when I first heard the term personal branding, I think it was probably 15 years ago, or something like that,.. AW:  I can tell you what it was. 1997, front cover of Fast Company magazine, the “Brand You” article by Tom Peters, I can guarantee you that. TM: I remember that. AW: So do I! TM:  Wow. So you know, the idea of what a corporate or product brand is, has changed a lot over the years, where we got to, I think, which was a good place, which is a brand is like a person, that the term I’m going to use is really nerdy. But in evolutionary biology, they talk about exaptation. So an adaptation is when evolutionarily, you know you have opposable thumbs. And exaptation is when something that you developed for a different purpose is repurposed. AW: Okay, love that word. So exaptation, it’s outside, right? TM: So an exaptation, what branding does is we have this built in software that lets you read other people. So you and I are talking to each other, and we’re giving each other visual cues. And there are books about how to read body language, but the fact is that it’s our operating system. Yep. So what a brand wants to do, is a brand wants to appear to your social instincts, as if it’s a person, as much as a big brand, like Coca Cola can say, you know, oh, we tastes really good. No, it’s, it’s the brand, it’s an old friend. So the exaptation, what brands are doing is they’re tricking our brains into thinking that they are people. What we do when we create a brand, is we’re actually creating an artificial personality. And so that’s why I find it kind of ironic, where we’ve gone full circle to saying personal branding. As I said to you on LinkedIn, I’m just myself, this is me, um, you know, I’m getting older, and I’m getting wiser, I hope. But you know, I’m also limited by being older, you know, my son cringes if I try to use his slang and stuff, but the brand just happens, the personal brand just happens. The question is, Are you the same when you’re talking to one on one to a friendly person or group of people? Or are you talking to a group who you don’t know? And you don’t see? And how do you brand towards them? And that’s bringing it full circle to that’s what advertising does, right? That’s what branding does. You but it’s like doubly blind, because you’re creating an artificial personality to appeal to a bunch of people you can’t see, you know, unless you have research on them. But anyway, I’m getting a little esoteric here. But it’s very relevant to me. I mean, the bottom line is, you have this in you to refine your personal brand, to alter your personal brand to make your personal brand work for you. A lot of it is just gaining the confidence to understand not only who you are, but how other people see you. So I mean, it, maybe it just seems too easy to me, because this is what I’ve done for a living. But I also think that people can learn this, I think that people can learn these insights and take them away. And you know, those of us in advertising, it’s a lot easier because we’re used to seeing this, we’re used to doing this, but anyone can benefit from it. think in terms of the audience, always the audience. AW: So I have to say, again, I think that that general message is so inspiring. I know from talking to some clients, particularly younger clients, I would say who feel overwhelmed about establishing their personal brand. And you need to think about filtering what you’re communicating based on your audience, and particularly pay attention to code switching across the generations. And when you were talking about stereotypes, and you know, there’s pros and cons and I was thinking I say this all the time to my kids like you wouldn’t survive if you didn’t stereotype to some extent. So stereotyping is not really a bad thing. It’s helping you judge the situation and how you should act and what you should do. Discrimination is bad. That’s different, right? I think that that’s really empowering. I wanted to ask you about my working definition that I have for personal branding. So if I’m starting off a workshop, I say, so what is personal branding? You can think of it very simply as identity management or reputation management. But it’s really what people think and say about you when you’re not in the room. TM: 100%. AW: So how does that relate then to product brands? Is it the same thing, what people think and say about the brand, when? Well, the brand could be in the room or not? Actually, right? TM: Well, let me let me put it this way. I’ve been in a lot of focus groups. If anyone’s ever attended, or on either side of the philosophy, focus group, people sit in a room with one wing mirror, they can’t see the people watching them, the client, the agency, you know, the market research firm, are in a darkened room, watching the focus group, the focus group know they’re being watched. And there’s a moderator who goes in and ask them the question. So we people seen this on TV, even people not in advertising can visualize this. What they don’t know is that when the moderator leaves the room, the agency especially get right up close, so they can hear what people say when the moderator is not a room. Yeah, we get our best insights. And it might sound creepy, but we live in a world of social listening. And when the moderator is not in the room is when people speak the truth. Ah, that’s an overstatement. But you know what I mean, people speak in an unperformed way, at least they’re not performing for the moderator. And it’s really interesting, because sometimes they realize the agency’s on the other side of the glass, but they forget where they’re so when the moderator is not in the room, they don’t realize we’re listening. And that’s when they start to say, Oh, boy, is that ever terrible? Like what? Yeah, what were they thinking? Yeah, and there’s good stuff to hear, right? You’re saying, yeah, this is this is the best feedback. AW: I actually remember that happening, being you know, what, the dark room on the other side of the one-way glass and looking in, and, you know, you can almost like snap your fingers and say, Oh, they forgot, we’re here, listen to what they’re saying. TM: They totally forget you’re there. I mean, it’s just like in psychology, right? You don’t want to, you know, you’re trying not to affect the subjects. But so you can make that a metaphor and say that your personal brand is what they say when the moderator is not in the room. AW: Oh, I love that. I love that. That’s, I’m gonna use that. These are great quotes here. So I have one more question to ask you before we get into the five rapid fire questions. TM: Okay. AW: You may have heard me say this, or you may have seen that I wrote this, that it occurred to me when I was thinking and writing about personal branding, that personal branding is very similar to actually your credit rating? TM: Yes, I heard you say that? Yeah, AW: yeah. So because of the fact that it exists, whether you manage it proactively or not, that people have access to it, they have access to your personal brand, obviously, they have access to your or institutions have access to your credit rating, and that you can choose to strategically manage it or not. What do you think about that metaphor? I guess it’s not a metaphor. It’s an analogy. TM: It’s an analogy. And I can give you I can give you a marketing equivalent, because you know, you were there to I was there, we got to actually shepherd clients onto social media. And there was a real reluctance to go on social media, because the culture is that any criticism is bad. So what we always said to them, they’re already talking about you. Don’t you want to be there?  So that’s like the credit score. It’s like, yeah, reputation exists. People have opinions of you the most, you know, the the quiet person who doesn’t talk to anyone, their neighbors still talk about them. AW: Yeah, that’s true. Oh, my gosh, I love all these points. And you also reminded me of googling yourself and how particularly older, again, back to your code switching across the generations, older people, oh, I would never Google myself. That’s what narcissists do. And I’m like, other people are googling you. As you know, in a professional context. I know that when I meet people, they’re googling me. Right? So you got to manage your digital footprint, even social media. TM: Oh, yeah, I have a I’ve had a Google News alert set for myself for over 10 years. AW: Good for you. TM: Oh, yeah, well, but you know, shout out to Tom Megginson of Yorkshire, I get all of his stuff. AW: Okay, we’re gonna move on now to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? TM: Yes. AW: First question. What are your pet peeves? TM: I’m a creative person. My pet peeve is really bad writing. And I don’t mean spelling mistakes. I mean, poor communication online when people aren’t expressing themselves. Well, I wish I could help them. AW: Okay, question number two, what type of learner are you? TM: I’m self taught. I actually dropped out of university, taught myself to do what I do. I learned by reading and I learned by listening and I especially learned by conversation. AW: Wow, that’s impressive. Question number three. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? TM: This is a really funny one. So a few years ago, I was having a catch-up coffee with a very good friend of mine who told me she was very introvert and I said, you’re introverted? We’ve always been really open with each other. And she said, Well, my husband says, you’re an introvert, if your idea of relaxing is to be by yourself, if your idea of relaxing is to be with other people, you’re an extrovert. And I said, Oh, geez, because I’m really comfortable around people around strangers, whatever. But I need my me time. So maybe I’m both. AW: So here’s the question. Where do you get your energy from? Or maybe an easier question to answer is, do you feel more drained when you spend the day alone? Or do you feel more drained after you come back from, you know, a big dinner party or something? TM: Oh, definitely the latter. I mean, it takes a lot of psychic energy to be on, especially most of my socializing has a business aspect to it. So we were talking about those filters. They’re exhausting. AW: Okay, so I’m gonna diagnose you as a social introvert, you are introverted, because you get your energy from being alone in your thoughts, right. But you do enjoy the company of people and you’re not shy. TM: Yeah, that totally works. I mean, just think about how many actors and stand up comedians are incredibly insecure. I don’t consider myself insecure, but I do need my alone time. AW: Oh, interesting. Okay, question number four communication preference for personal conversations? TM: Well, I would say that I always prefer face to face. I’m most comfortable with face to face for all the reasons I told you about, you know, just being able to really connect with the person. However, I’ve gotten very used to text. I think I like either texting personal message. I like writing. I like communicating with people in writing. I don’t spend a lot of time on the phone anymore. I talk to my mom on the phone. AW: Last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? TM: It’s really hard to say … I’m not a follower. I don’t subscribe to any blogs or newsletters. I’ve written blogs. I’ve written for podcasts. I’ve done all this stuff. But I don’t actually subscribe to anyone. I allow my network to curate it for me. So you know, people will say Did you hear this podcast? This one’s really good. So I’ll listen to that one. The nice thing about that is I don’t get locked in. AW: Yeah, that’s true. TM: That’s true. But I will subscribe to yours. AW: Oh my gosh, that question is not meant to be fishing for subscriptions. Honestly, I’m just I’m just… Okay. Is there anything else you want to add? About TMI or anything? TM: Not really. I mean, I think we’ve covered a lot of stuff. I just really, really enjoyed talking to you here today. I mean, you know, you talk about conversation and learning and this is exactly the thing I like to do. So thank you very much for your time and for putting me on your on your podcast. AW: Okay. I was supposed to thank you first! But Tom, the feeling’s mutual. I love this conversation because I learned, I did learn a lot and a new perspective on TMI and authenticity, and it was great and I hope we can stay connected. TM: Fantastic. Me too. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com                 ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #71 PERSONAL BRANDING, AUTHENTICITY & TMI with Tom Megginson appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Leading online meetings (virtual meetings) is a challenge. Staying focused and encouraging others to participate is a huge challenge!  Learn 4 tactics to encourage engagement in others, plus tips on what we ourselves should be doing during virtual meetings.   RESOURCES Online Meeting Apps & Websites ONLINE MEETING INTERACTION TOOLS: KAHOOT.com MENTIMETER.com ZOOM website – https://zoom.us/ growth (Bloomberg) – https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-22/zoom-daily-users-surge-to-300-million-despite-privacy-woes ROOM RATER website – https://twitter.com/ratemyskyperoom?lang=en article – https://www.housebeautiful.com/lifestyle/fun-at-home/a32883540/room-rater-rate-skype-room-zoom-backdrop/ Andrea’s Recommended Equipment for Online Meetings* Corded Earphones with mic – https://amzn.to/3sVpmSq Ring Light – https://amzn.to/3phvVMY (yes this is the one I bought! Love it!) Mobile sitting / standing desk: https://amzn.to/3a7uSsm (game changer!) Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki PODCAST EPISODE #69 ONLINE MEETINGS part 1: Preparation – https://talkabouttalk.com/69-online-meetings-prep BLOG – Zoom Skills – https://talkabouttalk.com/communication-skills-now-more-than-ever-blog/ Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ * These are affiliate links for products that I personally use and recommend. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com     ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #70 ONLINE MEETINGS 2: Engagement & Leading appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Actionable advice on how to communicate your personal brand online, including 3 KEY PRINCIPLES of personal branding, plus instructions for how to UPDATE, PARTICIPATE and MONITOR your personal brand online.   REFERENCES & LINKS Resources “How to Optimize your LinkedIn Profile” podcast episode – https://talkabouttalk.com/62-optimize-linkedin/ Updating your email signature – https://talkabouttalk.com/email-communication-blog/ Talk About Talk “Communication Skills” FB group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Forums– Quora, Reddit, Game Spot, Stack Overflow Andrea’s LinkedIn papers – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/detail/recent-activity/ (click “articles”) Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly “Communication Skills Coaching” Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup      LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #68 Communicating Your PERSONAL BRAND ONLINE (2) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Here’s your online meeting preparation checklist! We cover technology requirements and recommendations, your physical space, and your personal appearance. Preparation can fuel success in virtual meetings.   RESOURCES Online Meeting Apps & Websites Most downloaded apps of 2020 – https://startuptalky.com/most-apps-downloaded/ Fastest growing companies of 2020 – https://www.investors.com/research/fastest-growing-companies-2020-despite-coronavirus/ ZOOM website – https://zoom.us/ growth (Bloomberg) – https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-22/zoom-daily-users-surge-to-300-million-despite-privacy-woes ROOM RATER website – https://twitter.com/ratemyskyperoom?lang=en article – https://www.housebeautiful.com/lifestyle/fun-at-home/a32883540/room-rater-rate-skype-room-zoom-backdrop/ Andrea’s Recommended Equipment for Online Meetings* Corded Earphones with mic – https://amzn.to/3sVpmSq Ring Light – https://amzn.to/3phvVMY (yes this is the one I bought! Love it!) Mobile sitting / standing desk: https://amzn.to/3a7uSsm (game changer!) Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki PODCAST EPISODE #70 ONLINE MEETINGS part 2: Leading & Participating – https://talkabouttalk.com/70-online-meetings-lead Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ * These are affiliate links for products that I personally use and recommend. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. THANKS for reading – and Talk soon! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com     ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #69 ONLINE MEETINGS 1: Prepare for Success! appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Online networking is the only networking these days! Executive recruiter Sharon-Mah-Gin shares advice on how to approach people when networking online, how to follow-up, as well as general networking advice. There are many reasons to be optimistic! Just remember: “With true networking, it’s really not about you. It’s really about building relationships with like-minded people. And the benefits will come later.”   REFERENCES Sharon Mah-Gin LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonmahgin/ Executive Search Alliance – http://www.execsearchalliance.com/ Recommendations Video – Mat and Savannah Hallelujah– https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP8sE6H7j2s Yale course on Happiness – https://news.yale.edu/2020/03/25/housebound-world-finds-solace-yales-science-well-being-course Netflix – My Octopus Teacher – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher Netflix – A Life on Our Planet – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Attenborough:_A_Life_on_Our_Planet Netflix – The Biggest Little Farm – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Biggest_Little_Farm Resources Original “NETWORKING” Talk About Talk podcast episode with Sharon Mah-Gin (Mar.2020) – https://talkabouttalk.com/45-networking/ Granovetter, Mark (1973) “The Strength of Weak Ties,” American Journal of Sociology, https://sociology.stanford.edu/sites/g/files/sbiybj9501/f/publications/the_strength_of_weak_ties_and_exch_w-gans.pdf Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Sharon, for joining us to talk about online networking. Sharon Mah-Gin: I’m delighted to be here. Thank you. AW: So hello, COVID, and goodbye to live networking. There’s no more conference meetings, there’s no more networking events. How are we supposed to maintain, never mind grow our network? Sharon Mah-Gin & Andrea Wojnicki talk online networking SMG:  Well, you continue on and push forward! And I mean, when we think about how we network in this virtual environment, my sense is that we just continue and push on. We have more time now. Like, think about it, people are at home. So this is an absolutely wonderful opportunity to reach out to people, whether it be your warm network, or people that you’ve lost connections with to. So go and say, Can I grab 15 minutes and catch up? Because people have time, it’s a chance now for us to really reach out and reconnect with people that we may have lost touch with because we were too busy. Because they’ve got time. And I’ve been doing a lot of that, and people have been reaching out to me. And the answer is usually, yes. Start with 15 minutes with the ones that are maybe more distant in terms of you reconnecting but grab a coffee, say hello. And I would just share with you a few tips in terms of that. One of the things that I would say is just the usual greetings. You say How are things? right, but in today’s world with, you know, people losing their jobs, being more stressed out, I think it’s more about reaching out and saying, How are you? How are you doing? How are you finding it during this COVID-19 sort of situation? AW: You know, what I’ve heard? You know, what I’ve heard people say is, how are you really doing? SMG:  Yes, yes, it’s really about being more genuine and showing more empathy. And I think that that would be one thing that I would suggest. The other thing is, you’re going from face to face to face to face. In other words, when we were doing networking was over coffee. And we now do video chat, right? And so it’s easier to establish a connection and to be authentic. You know, give yourself a few extra minutes to prepare. You want to make sure that your technology is working, that you’re comfortable with it. And really checking in in terms of what you just said earlier, being more authentic, and really saying how are you finding it? It’s really that genuine, empathetic, “I care,” especially when it’s done through video. AW: Okay, so I have I have two thoughts about that. So one is, while we’re not, as you said, face to face, like physically face to face, there’s a screen between us. And there’s all this technology between us, it can be at least as personal, right? If you just make that extra effort. And the other thing I’m kind of hearing it implicitly is that the whole COVID situation is almost like a catalyst or an excuse for you getting a little more personal with people in your online network. SMG:  Correct. It is because we’re all in this together. And so you got to just call it out. And you’re exactly right. I mean, one of the stories I will share with you is I know you’ve heard of Matt and Savannah, but they’re a father and daughter team, they just decided to record a song like a prayer. And it came out in March, she was 15 years old and had no social media account. She was in the choir. And they decided let’s just try to record a song for fun. And they have garnered over 7 million hits. And they just came out with a song called Hallelujah, which I just love. I took it as an opportunity to say, well, with the US election being over with a vaccine around the corner, I sent that YouTube video out to my network. I cannot tell you how many positive responses I got from everybody while sharing that. And it was a great way to reconnect with everybody. And that was more on a personal note. But I mean, it’s all personal and business. So that was networking, though, if you think about it, absolutely. AW: Absolutely. It’s it. Here’s something that’s newsworthy. I love that and spreading good news. SMG:  Exactly, because I did it in terms of the nice weather, vaccine, and also the US election. So that’s networking. Like I mean, it’s not just about a job. It’s not just sharing anything. That’s good news, but I’m thinking of you. And so it’s not about I’m looking for a job, or I need you for something and again, from my earlier podcast on networking, it’s always about giving and not receiving. You’re just sharing it for the pure joy of this case, positive news and a beautiful song, which I’ll send to you right after this, by the way. AW: Yeah, and I was gonna say a couple things. I’m gonna include a link to that video that you’re talking about for sure in the show notes so people can see it. And also in reference to the previous podcast that we did number 45 on networking. Whenever I think about that podcast, I think about your one key message, as you said, it’s giving and reciprocally so you don’t start with an ask. You start with an offer you provide something and you know, I kind of hadn’t consciously really understood or internalized why when some people reach out to network with me It’s so off-putting and with others. It’s not and I realized it’s because of that. SMG:  Right. With true networking, it’s really not about you. It’s really about building relationships with like-minded people. And the benefits will come later. But it really is not about you. And so thank you for again repeating that. And I, when people say, Sharon, I hate networking, I go, Well, why? Oh I feel like I’m begging, I said, Excuse me, it’s not about you, it really is, how can I help you? And it really truly and genuinely expecting nothing in return? Right? It’s not gonna be a one way street. But especially in the beginning it’s really about building relationships with like-minded people. And I often say you don’t even do an ask until at least after a year, you don’t even ask for anything until you build that relationship. AW: So I just have to interject and say, meanwhile, I’m getting LinkedIn requests every day from people where the ask is actually in the LinkedIn request. SMG:  Really? AW: Yeah, every day. SMG:  And what sort of ask, are they asking? AW: So hey, Andrea, I checked out your profile. Do you have five minutes where I can tell you all about how my company could help you? SMG:  I’ve had those sorts of emails, but for some reason, they’ve all ended up in junk. AW: Haha. Okay, well, we’re gonna get into LinkedIn in a minute. SMG:  Okay, fair enough. And then the other thing is, in terms of networking, just be more patient. If you haven’t heard back from a company, allow, like, I always say, three requests You’ll wait a few days, do the thank you note or whatever, then follow up again, another week. And then also follow up with a phone call if you can, because I have found situations where people have reached out or responded to me. And for some reason, they end up in my spam or junk email. My recommendation there is you go to via email, if you within a week of each other. And the third follow up should be voice. AW: I think that’s great. And you know what, a lot of people are looking for that kind of prescriptive advice. So two emails. SMG:  Yeah. AW: And a week later a call? SMG:  Yes. AW: I love that. And you can kind of feel more confident this is Yeah, this is according to Sharon, she’s an expert, she knows! SMG:  exactly. Three attempts. And then that last one, it might be Listen, I’m just calling to follow up, I sent two follow up emails, you know, and you mentioned that there could be an opportunity, I’m certainly not here to nag you, but just want to get, you know, close it off one way or the other. You know, I’m hoping there’s an opportunity. But if there isn’t, just appreciate just letting me know, so I can just close it off. And that is fair. But for me, in my opinion, sometimes you may not hear back, and that’s okay, too, you know, it is what it is. But just if you’re job searching, my suggestion is you just keep at it all in a positive mindset. AW: So let’s imagine that you are job searching. And you know, we used to meet with people, we’d have coffees, and in a coffee shop right? at Starbucks, or Tim Hortons or whatever, we would go to networking events, we would go to conferences, there were all these in real life ways to meet people to expand our network, because we all know that we’re more likely to get jobs from a contact of a contact or a friend of a friend rather than directly. So what should a job searcher do? SMG:  Well, the first thing I’m going to say is that 80% of people who get jobs, it’s usually done through networking. AW: Mm hmm. SMG:  In these COVID-19 times, the networking will be virtual: Zoom, or video or Microsoft Team calls. Or the other thing I just did before this podcast is I just caught up with a gentleman I said, Let’s walk and talk. So we talked and walked and it is a beautiful day today. I encourage everyone to get out and get some sunshine. Mental health is really critical these days, in these COVID-19 times. If you’re looking for a job to it’s even more important, because you have to have a very positive mindset. I will share with you with the gentleman that I was talking with, I just said, you know, you’re sounding a little bit off, but you’re sounding a little bit down and he says, You’re right. And I said, Have you done any walks outside? No. ,   I’m really busy at work and stuff. And I said, I really need you to go out and just walk and talk. And people are really open to that like, especially if you know the person maybe that first call, you may not want to do it that way. You want to do Zoom. But if you’ve known someone for two or three times, then it’s important not to just work but also to reach out to friends or acquaintances or people that you haven’t been able to connect with and say, Hey, can we grab 30 minutes in walk and talk? And even doing it in the warm sunshine and you’re doing it in nature in a quiet spot. It is so good for the soul, and that positivity needs to come across when you’re looking for a job. AW: Ah, yes, that’s for your whole outlook and it affects everything doesn’t it? SMG:  And it comes across – like this gentleman was not looking for a job but I even picked up from just a walk and talk sensing that I care about you and I’m sensing you’re a little bit down. This goes back again to being that genuinely caring person. Calling it out and being kind to others. I really feel it’s important to be authentic and genuine and empathetic and share that if you see it. AW: Yeah, I have. I have two really quick stories that I want to share. One is I interviewed a woman named Gretchen Barton. And she’s a market researcher. She works for a professor of mine named Jerry Zaltman. And he asked in a zoom meeting, how’s everyone doing? And when it got to her, she was like, you know, this is this is not great. And she didn’t really want to share, but he kind of forced her to but then afterwards, she was like, it was amazing that somebody cared that much. And honestly, her loyalty to him just grew exponentially in that moment. And all he said, was, really tell us about it. And she said, Well, I didn’t sleep well, last night, and this and this, and this, and, and then afterwards, you know, that really resonated with her. Another friend of mine told me recently that someone and one of her senior vice presidents that works for her just resigned. And when they were doing the exit interview, they asked him, you know, what, you know, what’s going on? Did you get another job? And he said, No, I just, I couldn’t handle it anymore. The work was piling up and the zoom calls. And she said, but we asked you, like, every week, how’s everything going? And you always said, Fine. Unfortunately, she didn’t say, How are you really doing? Right? He didn’t feel comfortable to answer. So… SMG:  and that might have been a better one on one conversation, right? Like, I mean, people will share more if it’s one on one. And that again, goes back to that premise of networking that we spoke about Andrea, where I said it like if you’re an introvert, you actually will do quite well in this because you’re a very good active listener, and you will actually listen. And we go back to the basic premise of what networking is, it’s not about you, it’s about the other person. So when you actually look at that person and say, because they would like to talk about themselves, right? And you say, How are you really doing given the COVID-19, and all the challenges the world is facing, and you look them in the eye, and you’re genuine people will usually open up. AW: So so in creating this list, we have, of course, setting up the video conference meetings, as you said, and after maybe after a few of those, you could ask someone to go for a walk and talk or as you said, if they’re in your warm online network, you could ask them immediately to go for a walk and talk or… SMG:  Exactly. Some of them could be live, some of them could just you put on your headset, I’ll put on mine, let’s walk the talk and catch up. Absolutely. Don’t just sit there and do a zoom call after zoom call. AW: Someday you and I are going to go for a hike, Sharon! SMG:  Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. We can even start with a walk. AW: Yeah. Okay. Um, so early on a couple minutes ago, you mentioned warm networks. And then you said that people that you have let slide, do you have a hierarchy of, I guess, labels or segments that you call people in your online network? SMG:  Yes, absolutely. First of all, try to network with people that are like minded, like, you know, there might be a person on your network, we think, Wow, they’re really powerful to do whatever. But if you don’t have that chemistry, or you’re not like minded, don’t do it. Like that’s just wasted energy. In other words, so I would first of all look for like minded people. And when I say like minded, those are the people when you have a conversation with them. It’s natural. It’s easy. You feel like you can be yourself. And when you finish that conversation, you feel a new energy, they make you feel better about yourself, or that they give you hope. That’s what I mean, about like minded people. AW: So Sharon, for me that that would be you. SMG:  Oh, that would also be you. I know after this call, it would be just like I just finished doing a great hike, you know, up the mountain. Yeah, on a sunshiny day. AW: So let’s turn this question around 180 degrees. So as an executive recruiter, you have great insight on this, but how have firms shifted their recruiting strategy? Now that everything’s online, they can’t be hosting live in real life events. So what are they doing? SMG:  Yeah. Well, that’s a great question, Andrea. And I’m really glad you’re asking. So especially for people who are job searching it. So I was telling you that, you know, I have seen a real pivot in the change in terms of recruiting that people are actually getting hired without being met. In other words, the zoom or the team is sufficient enough. And these are some very senior executives, too. So that has been surprising for me, because I mean, these people can make or break the company, right? So the first thing I’m going to tell you is that from a recruiting side, a lot of the big firms – I came out of Korn Ferry – but a lot of the big firms have unfortunately, done a number of layoffs because of all the overhead, the offices, you know, the marketing, etc. Now firms like that are smaller like myself, which are more boutique where we have, you know, minimal overhead, it’s really about your network and your connections and who, you know, we’ve done well, so I’ve really been fortunate, I’ve been quite busy. I had one individual, one client right now, in the industrial space, they found a superstar, eight years ago. Well, that person is going to retire. So it’s a retirement, so we have to fill that void. I’ve had another search where it’s a commodity trading type company, and in that situation, that incumbent left, so the role is vacant. So again, they have to find somebody. And then the third piece, which I’ve done a lot of work in is in growth industries. So I’ve done a CEO and the CFO, and some board searches for a company that is in the COVID-19 growth space and received a big government contract. And so therefore, there is a need. So there are jobs out there in terms of vacancies, retirement, right? And growth industries, there is no new norm. Ladies and gentlemen, don’t sit there thinking when things get back to normal, it is a new normal. So the faster you can accept that, keep looking, don’t stop your search, you know, be patient, leverage your online network, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool there to sort of go back and look at all your contacts and revisit them, you know, in terms of who can I reach out to be ready for video interviews, because everything’s done through video now, right? You know, update your skills, you know, and then follow up. But there are jobs out there. AW: Right there, there are many silver linings. And, gosh, there’s so many things that you just went through. Another thing that you mentioned is taking online courses. And I know from someone who offers online courses, but that side is exploding right now. Right? People are really investing in themselves, because they have the time and they’re on their computer. Any comments about that? SMG:  Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, there is one that I just signed up recently, and you’ll laugh at this Andrea but it was through Yale, and it’s the number one, it’s free. It’s the number one course AW: Yeah, I did it! I just signed up! You sent it to me! So this is an example of you networking. You sent that to me. And I just registered. SMG:  You did? Okay, great. Because I took that as an opportunity like, wow, Yale, number one course: happiness. And it’s free. So why wouldn’t I share that with my warm network And so it’s a matter of just taking that time, and then reconnecting you’re thinking, oh, here comes something. Share it and it’s a positive thing. So I like to send out positive stuff, because then again, you’re working on your online presence, you’re working on your personal brand. And my personal brand that I want is that I want to share positive things that I think can make someone feel better than where they’re at or to make them feel happy. Or to put a smile on their face. AW: I’m thinking I’m thinking about whether you’re looking for a new job, or maybe you’re happy in your job, but you want to upskill there are sort of categories of online courses you could take, right? It could be personal interest. So something that has absolutely nothing to do with your job. It could be your upskilling within your job, you’re trying to demonstrate on your resume to your current and potentially future employers. But then I love this third category that you have, which is a personal interest. That’s really not a hobby, but it’s something that you can use as a catalyst or news, positive news to share with others. I love that. SMG:  Yes, that’s exactly it. And that’s my intent when I send out the Hallelujah video – it’s positive news. Or the Yale course, like, like, wow, like, I mean, why wouldn’t I want to share that? It’s the number one course at Yale, I might add. AW: That’s what that’s what’s kind of newsworthy about it. Right. Like, it’s not just a random course that Sharon took. This is their number one. In terms of enrollment. Yes. So I’m gonna have to put a link to that in the show notes as well. SMG:  Okay. Fair enough. AW: Speaking of links, I think we have to talk a little bit about LinkedIn. SMG:  Yes, we do. Yes. AW: How important is LinkedIn in terms of networking really, in these times? SMG:  Extremely important. Okay. because number one, if we’re going to reach out to your network, one of the things you want to do is go into your contacts, all these people that I have over 7000 in mine, but that’s unusual, because what I do, most people have maybe 500 to 1000. And you’ll be amazed when you go through who they are, Oh, my gosh, I haven’t spoken to them. Oh, my goodness, I loved it when I met this person. Or you’ll be amazed when you go through that in terms of people that you had forgotten about, but you had very positive memories with maybe from a network and you want to start with that. First, from my networking podcast. I was talking about how, when you meet someone, the first thing I do is I link-in with them. I think you had a really fantastic speaker who focused on LinkedIn. I listened to that podcast. Andrew Jenkins spoke about the LinkedIn profile. And I really agree with what he said. But one of the key things: to create a media rich business card, and I totally concur with that. I love that. And so I absolutely from a from a networking perspective. So you go look at your contacts, you’ll figure out who you want to reconnect with, reach out to them, whether it be a job search, or maybe you want to do an informational interview, we just want to reconnect with them, because they were just great individuals that you can deepen that relationship. Because remember what I said to you before true networking, it’s all about meeting people that are like minded, really, it’s about how can I help you building that relationship and the benefits come later. So this is a wonderful time to deepen those relationships, right? Because people have time. So LinkedIn is a wonderful way to get kick started. AW: So as you were saying that I was just imagining you said that most people probably have just upwards of 500 contacts somewhere in there. SMG:  Yes. AW: even 500 is really overwhelming in terms of a list to go through. But with LinkedIn, you can filter them, right? So you can filter by geography. If you want to go for a walk with someone, you could say, hey, do you want to join a meeting, go for a walk, but you could filter by discipline, or by their directory or by their firm? SMG:  So yes, excellent. I totally agree with you Andrea. So that’s where I would tell you the number one place to start would be with your LinkedIn contacts and looking at and then also, when you reach out to them, you may find this other similar people that show up and you go, Oh, I forgot about them. And then that’s another chance for you to just keep expanding it right. Because again, the power of LinkedIn, I think we talked about this last time in my networking podcast is that mutual connections are so critical when youre looking for a job. So when you look at the mutual connections, you’re going in, and you’re saying, okay, I want to get a job at Lulu Lemon, (because that’s, I’m wearing Lululemon pants right now!). AW: Haha – I’m glad you have pants on. SMG:  Haha. But being able to say, I want to get a job there, and then going into your contacts and finding the oh my gosh, I have five people who are actually working at Lulu Lemon or Google and saying, Hey, can you put in a good word for me? That mutual connection is so critical. AW: So so that’s a do is to leverage the mutual contacts, right? SMG:  Yes. AW: And to use the filter? SMG:  yes. AW: And to, as you said, throughout to make sure that there’s reciprocality and you’re focusing on the relationship and giving and not just taking, do you have any other do’s and don’ts in terms of online networking on LinkedIn? SMG:  I would just say, I mean, you want to keep it current, right? Like, you know, you want a professional photo, because it really is, you know, professional networking versus like a Facebook. So I would say again, the professional photo, and also trying to really build up what your brand is, like, Andrea, what looked at yours, yours is excellent. It’s very clear, it’s a beautiful picture of you, then your first three lines are very clear in terms of what you are right? Communications, , Coach, you know, I really love the way you did that. AW: So I can tell you personally, from conversations that I’ve had with people, especially like friends of friends that are looking for jobs, and they’ll say, Well, my friend wants to get into marketing, or they want to get into the communication industry, and or podcasting, whatever it is, Andrea, maybe you can help them out. And then I’ll look find them on LinkedIn. And I’m actually shocked at the proportion of people who are really job searching who don’t pay attention, they their LinkedIn profile is simply not updated. Right? And they have yet they haven’t even probably connected with their friends. It’s crazy. So in your experience, how rare is that people that you know you connect with that are looking for a job, and then you go in? And it’s like, what is this? SMG:  I would say that that’s more common. Like you, I am totally shocked. I’ve had situations where you’re telling me you’re a salesperson, and then the word sales is not even in your resume. I would say that is it is more common. Unfortunately, it’s disappointing. Actually. I think it’s just because I think people are just lazy. I think people are just lazy. And really the ones that are really good in terms of profiles are what I call true leaders. I when I see that effort that they’ve done to really care and do their brand. I have seen their career  advance, as a general comment again, quite quickly. I remember doing a networking event before at one of the tier one accounting firm, and I had about 30 or 40 people. And at the end of it, I said: if you want to reach out, I’m happy to answer any questions that you might have. I had maybe two or three people who actually did reach out and I had one in particular, she said, Can I take you out for lunch and really pick your brains? And I thought, wow, and that individual? I mean, she’s in her 30s. And she was just announced as one of the top 40 under 40. AW: Oh, I saw that. SMG:  I thought Yeah, probably makes sense. I mean, when you think she was the only one that who saw it as an opportunity and thought, wow, I need to really learn what to do. You know, it was like, may I take you up for lunch? Just to further have a dialogue about this conversation. I remember thinking she’s gonna go far. Well, my gut was right. And I mean, top 40 under 40. AW: Yeah. So there’s a couple things there. One is that she was giving, not taking, right. Yes. But the other thing that I the other things that I’m hearing are being proactive. SMG:  Yes. Right. AW: So getting putting yourself out there, but then also a conscientiousness right? And I’ve heard that being conscientious is a huge contributor to success. So people that dot their I’s cross their T’s take care of their LinkedIn profiles, right? SMG:  Andrea, that is so wonderful, because you’re such an excellent interviewer and as someone who does these podcasts with you. I love it because it’s so rich because you’re obviously learning from every person that you’re interviewing and you have this incredible ability to pull it all together right and make it even more rich. You’re absolutely right. That is what I call a true leader. AW: So you know, one theme back to your point about me learning from the people that I’m interviewing and the research that I’m doing something that more and more often is coming to my mind as a theme that links all of us together is just having a growth mindset, right. And if you think about it, the person who wanted to connect with you and she stuck her neck out, she was proactive, she was giving, she was conscientious. She also had a growth mindset she wanted to learn. And I feel like that’s also for me a big difference between confidence and arrogance. SMG:  It’s totally true, you don’t know at all. You don’t not know that we might, you know, you hit it right on the nose, the growth mindset. those are those are what I call the true leaders. And I’ve interviewed I mean, 1000s, probably more people and I’m in the enviable position that, you know, companies pay me pay me a lot of money, actually, to figure out who’s going to be the next CEO or the CFO. Tthese are senior leadership roles, right? You know, that I am the gatekeeper . That’s not lost on me. And it’s the soft skill set that I look for. It’s the cultural fit. It’s the ability to communicate, it’s the ability to be confident and not arrogant. That’s what’s critical in true leadership. Yeah, and the growth mindset overrides it all. Yeah. And we’re talking a lifetime learner. AW: Yeah. I love that term, too. So clearly, Sharon, we are like minded. SMG:  Yes. AW: We’ve established that if nothing else SMG:  yes, we have. AW: I actually have one more question to ask you. Before we get to the five rapid fire questions. What do you think about a virtual coffee? I’ve had several of those invitations from people, what do you think about that? SMG:  I think they’re fantastic to do, I tend to do them more with people that I know that I want to either deepen the relationship, or just catch up with them. I think people are more confident now with doing things virtually, that they’re getting used to technology, I’ve had some very rich conversations. Just having a – I don’t drink but – either someone have a glass of wine, or have a cup of coffee, just to catch up. Again, I prefer wherever possible to do them through walk and talks. But as the weather gets colder, and the weather gets more miserable, I don’t know about you, but the thought of a nice hot cup of hot chocolate, or a warm beverage of some kind, maybe with a little bit of Kahlua in it or whatever. AW: Yeah, I agree with I agree with all those points, I think I did have a few invitations from complete strangers to have a quote unquote, virtual coffee date. And I was kind of off put by that. But you said, if it’s someone that you already know, you could say Listen, you know, normally you and I go out for coffee a couple times a year, and we really enjoy reconnecting, we can’t do that. So let’s do a virtual coffee. And then it seems really natural. SMG:  It does. And I’ve really enjoyed those. That’s why I said I wouldn’t do it with a first time person. I mean, I guess it won’t be the negatives, reversed that question, Andrea, what would be the negatives for having a virtual coffee? AW: Well, this woman was connected with me on LinkedIn. And then she was like, I know, so and so and so and so that you know, and I really want to talk to you. And we could do a virtual coffee, or you can come to my backyard, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, What are you selling me, SMG:  she didn’t even know you? She was a total random stranger? AW: She was a total random stranger. And she named two people that I know that are painters. And I was like, you’re either creepy, or you’re trying to sell me something. So that’s the negative. SMG:  So that that’s a great example of It’s all about them and not about you. And that’s also jumping to being familiar way too quickly. AW: You make it sound so easy, but I think that’s actually maybe one of the best pieces of advice is to just be empathetic? SMG:  be empathetic, be genuine. And really, how can I help you? Yeah, those would be the three biggest things I would say right there. AW: Brilliant. Okay, ready to move on to the five rapid fire questions? SMG:  I am. AW: Okay, so we’re gonna do this a little bit differently. I’m gonna remind you what you said last time and see if you have any anything to add? Okay? SMG:  Oh, okay. AW: So the first question is, what are your pet peeves? And last time you said, people who are not lifelong learners. Do you have anything new to add to that? SMG:  Yeah, I still agree with that. That certainly a change. But I’m going to add, especially given our conversation today, people who don’t make it easy to help them. AW: I can hear the passion in your voice. And I would say, I bet another pet peeve is not keeping your LinkedIn profile updated. SMG:  That is absolutely true. And then the other thing that I’m going to say is thank you notes. It’s so easy to send a two sentence email with a gracious Thank you, right. There’s no excuse. AW: Yeah. SMG:  Do you find that Andrew and what you do? Are you finding that too? AW: Oh, I mean, personally and professionally. That’s also I would say one of my pet peeves, like just say, thank you. It takes zero effort, zero. SMG:  Yeah, I know. It doesn’t have to be really fancy or anything like that at all. And I’ve even had executives sometimes where they’ll go, Well, I want to send a thank you note, like you know, like is it proper in the process? So I appreciate that they’re wanting to check in in terms of the process. I always look at them going. Well, I appreciate you. You’re asking me because you want to make sure you’re not doing anything inappropriate in terms of the search process. But as far as I know, I don’t think thank you notes have ever ever been a no-no, or being ever like outdated? AW: Yeah. So that said, I’m gonna I’m gonna just tell you this quick story. I was helping a friend’s niece in her job search. And I was basically counseling her and she showed me a thank you note that she had handwritten to someone after she had done an interview. And I said, just so you know, they usually have the meeting to decide who’s going to get the job within 24 hours of the last interviewee. So that is not going to be a thank you note that they’re going to receive in time. They’re going to get that thank you note after they’ve made the decision, you need to go home and send an email like right now. And she said, Oh my gosh, I thought they would appreciate this. I said: I’m sure they will. But it’s too late. SMG:  Andrea, that was excellent advice. And I would tell them the same thing. The handwritten notes are lovely too. And the other thing about thanking those of you should also be aware of for job searchers is when I do go deeper, they go oh, Sharon, I, I didn’t get this point across quite clearly. Or I wish I set this I said, Not a problem. And they go What do you mean, I said, that’s what thank you notes are for right? It’s your second shot. So when you do your thank you note and you’re thanking them for whatever, you can also say just further, I just want to clarify that whatever or, you know, I dawned on me, you know, I realized afterwards, that I didn’t share this point, which I think might be important for you to know. That is your second shot. So that’s the other reason why you should send thank you. AW: There you go. I’m so glad I told you that story. Because I guess that’s a great point. Okay. These rapid fire questions are not very rapid, but they’re great for getting information. So the second question is, what type of learner are you and the first time you said, definitely visual? SMG:  Yes. And that definitely is still the same and even more so now with a videos like everything’s done through video. So it’s very visual. AW: It’s Yes. Bizarre to be looking at ourselves and and others when we’re on video conferences. Okay. I think question number three hasn’t changed. introvert or extrovert? SMG:  Definitely an extrovert. How about we just put big capitals on it? AW: So you made a comment, though, about perhaps COVID is a little bit easier for introverts. SMG:  Yes, I do believe that. My one nephew, who’s an introvert has said, Oh, Auntie Sharon, I’m just loving it. He said, he said, because I just, you know, online, doing my courses and stuff. But he actually said to me, he said that he actually is meeting more people because everything is being done online. AW: Oh, the poor extroverts. Okay. Next question. Number four, your communication or media preference for personal conversations. And last time you said definitely face-to-face. If it’s a serious conversation. You can’t do that anymore. SMG:  Yeah, you can’t. Although I would say to you with the technology. We’ve done it all through video, but we’re okay. Because I have had a number of hires with them just doing the zoom or the teams etc. AW: Yep. All virtual. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? And I just want to say last time, you jokingly said TalkAboutTalk. And since then, that episode, where we talked about networking, that episode has become the number one of the well over 60 episodes in terms of downloads, I’m thrilled to tell you and grateful. Are there any other podcasts or blogs or email newsletters that you find yourself recommending? SMG:  Well, first of all, thank you for letting me know that, Andrea. I really think what you’re doing is fantastic. You’re still right up there in my books. But I want to change the question around a little bit. And so I’m going to talk instead about three documentaries. And I would really recommend, on Netflix. And these are documentaries, so real-life stories. Number one, My Octopus Teacher. It sounds like a weird thing, but it’s about a guy who really had a breakdown and falls in love with this Octopus. But the photography and the shooting is absolutely amazing. AW: I heard about that. When I was listening to NPR. It sounds fascinating. SMG:  I highly recommend it. My octopus teacher, you may not want to eat octopus ever again, if you like seafood. But anyways, number one, number two, on life on our planet by David Attenborough. He’s 93 years old that the David Suzuki is about climate change, but it’s so well done and narrated by himself, and he’s 93 years old, but it gives you a solution. So that’s what I love. And then the third one, which I just watched the other day, which I love is the biggest little farm. AW: Oh, I haven’t heard of that. AW: Yes, it’s really about being able to farm the land and how every ecosystem supports each other. So I would like to recommend on Netflix the documentaries, my octopus teacher, a life on our planet by David Attenborough, and the biggest little farm, AW: amazing. Okay, I’m gonna put links to those in the show notes. Okay, is there anything else you want to add Sharon, about online networking? SMG:  Just be positive, be genuine, and be patient. AW: Thank you so much, Sharon, for sharing your time and your expertise. We all really appreciate it. SMG:  My pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING!     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #67 ONLINE NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Top 3 lists from Andrea and Talk About Talk, including the top 3 Talk About Talk podcast episodes and newsletters, Andrea’s favorite podcasts, plus communication insights from 2020 and focus areas for 2021.   THANKS for listening – and READING! – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ – Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ – Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #66 Trending Communication Topics, Insights & Recommendations appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Sleep can help us be more effective communicators, improving our sociability, not to mention our immunity, hormonal regulation, mental health, and memory. Biohacker & biotechnology scientist Oksana Andreiuk shares how to get more sleep, including increasing our sleep opportunity beyond 8 hours, controlling our environment, ways to calm our minds, and more.   REFERENCES Oksana Andreiuk, M.Biotech Talk About Talk IMMUNITY episode: https://talkabouttalk.com/46-biohacking-podcast/ Social Media (@CanadianBiohacker) Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/canadianbiohacker Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CanadianBiohacker/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR6KunOu-T5XANwGbaaNlHQ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CDNBiohacker Recommendation: “The Drive” podcast – https://peterattiamd.com/podcast Resources US National Sleep Foundation – https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/how-much-sleep-do-we-really-need Harvard Medical School SLEEP Resources: http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/need-sleep/whats-in-it-for-you/health https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/ask-the-doctor-right-amount-of-sleep Studies referenced by Oksana: 6hrs sleep insufficient to support neurocognitive functioning – https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12683469/ Sleep deprivation impairs recognition of emotions – https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20337191/ Sleep loss causes social withdrawal and loneliness – https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05377-0 Relaxation/Sleep promoting supplements/ingredients:  Melatonin Magnesium bisglycinate Passionflower L-theanine 5HTP + GABA Valerian root Other Binaural Beats – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics) Headspace App – https://www.headspace.com/ Calm App  – https://www.calm.com/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Podcast –https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Weekly Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Oksana, for joining us to talk about sleep. Oksana Andreiuk: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk about this. It’s one of my favorite topics, as you know, AW: I know, I know it is, and I can’t wait to get into it. But before we do that, can you explain to me and the listeners just what is biohacking? And what does a bio hacker do? OA: Sure, absolutely. So bio hacking can generally be defined as the art and science of modifying your internal and external environments to take better control of your biology in order to optimize your health and overall performance. And so one of the exciting things – and my background being more heavily on genetics and biotechnology – is that we now have the tools and technology to allow us to quantify and measure, to continuously optimize our own biology and our health. And so it’s a really exciting time to be a biohacker. Because we have all those tools. AW: When you and I first met, it was at a conference and Ensemble conference, the future of food, and you were on a panel there, and you really impressed me. So I went up, and I introduced myself and I had a great conversation with you. And I asked you as a bio hacker who’s really focused on optimizing or I guess, maximizing her longevity: What is your number one tip? You said – sleep? OA: Yes, sleep is my number one thing. If someone asked me, what should I start doing today to you know, live healthier for longer. I always say sleep, it’s just fundamental for longevity. And it’s been proven to be even more important than food. And the reason why I share this, too, is that most of us are not sleeping enough these days. You know, it’s very rare that I need someone who doesn’t have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. And two thirds of adults across all developed nations get less than eight hours of nightly sleep versus a century ago, the average person slept for two hours more than they do today. Which seems kind of crazy. In today’s world, like imagine averaging out, you know, nine hours of sleep every day, it seems like a total luxury. But I mean, we’re just not sleeping enough. AW: Wow. So I want to get into what some of the implications are with sleep. But first, I just have to tell you this. I told some of my girlfriends that I was interviewing a biohacker about sleep and sleep hygiene and the importance of sleep, and they all freaked out. So I’m with you, I totally get it. And generally I sleep okay. But there are nights. And usually it’s before a big interview or a big presentation when I know I need to sleep. And I can’t. So I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about that. What is the link between sleep and longevity? OA: So sleep is absolutely essential to just keeping our bodies functioning properly. Interestingly, humans are the only mammals who voluntarily deprive themselves of sleep. And it’s, you know, because we want to scroll through social media, there are other things we want to be doing. And we seem to just be willing to sacrifice on our sleep. But there’s a reason why sleep happens. And there are so many benefits to sleep to keeping our bodies functioning properly. There’s not one bodily system that isn’t negatively impacted by a lack of sleep and isn’t positively impacted by quality sleep. So sleep is important for emotional control and stress, resilience, which I’m sure we’ll get into when we talk about how sleep affects communication, but also hormonal regulation, our immune system, appetite control, you know, they’ve now recently published a study that can essentially predict the onset of Alzheimer’s disease, and a person’s risk simply based on their quality of sleep. And the impairments that we see in people who are under sleeping can be seen as similar to that of people who smoke or have diabetes or have coronary artery disease. So chronic sleep deprivation has very serious, serious implications and is linked to various chronic conditions. And so that’s why it’s the number one thing you know, because it’s free. And we can just start doing that today. And it has so many amazing benefits in helping our bodies to function properly and regenerate. AW: Okay, I have to say, based on that I could just end the interview right now. And I’m just joking. I mean, you have me convinced. It’s like a domino effect, right? You said it’s linked to Alzheimer’s and hormones and weight and stress and our immunity. And we could go on and on and on. I want to let the listeners know that I’ll get the links to some of the research papers that you’re talking about and put them in the show notes if they’re interested in reading them themselves. But before we move on to communication, can you explain what is happening to our bodies physically when we sleep? Why is it so important, like what’s going on? OA: Essentially, while we’re sleeping, that is the time for our bodies to regenerate and a lot of that happens during deep sleep. And then REM sleep is important for linking new ideas and information and making memories. But sleep helps with regulating our hormones and ensuring that our brain is functioning properly and clearing out damage. If you know we’re talking about the brain, for example, while we sleep some of our brain cells shrink by up to 60%. And what happens in that time is that the spinal fluid acts like a detergent to wash away any cellular waste and debris from between those cells. And if this doesn’t happen, this can lead to accumulation of that damage and formation of beta amyloid plaques, which are implicated in Alzheimer’s disease. And so there are just so many things that happen while we’re sleeping, that once you realize that and think about all the benefits, it’s hard to continue depriving yourself of sleep, just knowing how beneficial it is to your overall health and well being from top to bottom. AW: Yeah, that makes sense. You know, I’ve heard before that all of our body systems are integrated. And I have to say, I love your detergent metaphor that is fantastic. Like sleep is washing away all the dirt. So I want to get now into the link or the relationship between sleep and communication effectiveness. I mentioned this before that the night before I’m doing an interview, or if I’m giving a presentation or speaking at a conference or whatever, I think to myself, it’s really important to get a good night’s sleep. Why is it specifically important to get a good night’s sleep in terms of our communication? OA: So sleep is critical to a number of brain functions affecting communication, I’d say if we put them in three categories, there’s memory and learning, and sociability. So during sleep, your brain forms connections that can help you process and remember new information. The lack of sleep can negatively impact both short and long term memory, then there’s communication and problem solving. So if we’re underslept, our thinking and concentration are affected, you know, we’re not as able to concentrate on a task or solve a problem. So critical thinking is not as up to par, as if we when we do get a good night’s sleep. And then lastly, and this is, I think, an even bigger piece as it relates to communication as your mood and social intelligence and persuasiveness are affected as well by a lack of sleep or sleep deprivation. So it can make you moody, emotional, quick tempered. And then chronic sleep deprivation is implicated in mental health disorders, like anxiety and depression, sleep disruption actually contributes to all major psychiatric conditions. And that, of course, includes depression, anxiety, and even suicide ability. And so the reason why that happens if we want to get into that is sleep deprivation and actually acts to shut down the communication in your brain between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. So the amygdala is our fight or flight response. So for not getting enough sleep, that fight or flight response is heightened. And then the prefrontal cortex is responsible for acting as our social or emotional filter, which allows us to, you know, just filter our reactions and emotions, and so that’s where social intelligence can be affected. And then as well, sleep deprivation actually lowers our desire for social proximity and social interaction. So if we’re sleep deprived, we don’t want to be around other people, we don’t really want to interact socially. So it’s both our emotional intelligence that is affected. And we actually become worse at even understanding the intents of other people and kind of reading the room reading the audience. And then we don’t even want to be around other people as much as well. So it’s almost like we self isolate, subconsciously, when we’re sleep deprived. And what’s more is that others are able to tell when we’re sleep deprived. So there’s been studies done, where people were shown images of other individuals. And it turns out that a person is actually more likely to appear as a lonely person to others when they’re sleep deprived. And so other people are just then biologically wired to not want to engage or interact with you when you’re sleep deprived, because our brains are actually capable of registering when the other person is sleep deprived, and it makes us perceive those people as less attractive to engage with. So all in all, essentially, sleep deprivation makes us feel lonely and lowers our emotional intelligence, but also makes us less desirable for others to want to socialize with. That’s just a total communication killer, if you think about it, AW: wow. So I love the list that you that you provided. So I got short term and long term memory, learning, premonition, critical thinking, mood, social intelligence,… This is compelling. This is very, very compelling. I’m thinking about what I was a young faculty member in particular at business school and teaching cases where, you know, it wasn’t scripted. I wasn’t lecturing, I was having a discussion with the students and I had to be on. Oh, yeah, my sleep the night before, absolutely affected how effective I was in leading that discussion. OA: and, you know, at least for women, you know, we can kind of fake it a little bit, put some mascara on, eye makeup to make ourselves look more alive. But yeah, I mean, it’s fascinating how this is happening subconsciously at a biological level that our brains can just tell when someone didn’t get enough sleep. AW: So when we know that we want to get a great night’s sleep, it’s really important. You know, I feel like sometimes that can backfire, right? Because all sudden, you feel this little bit of anxiety or pressure to sleep, let’s move into sleep hygiene, how can we increase our odds that we’re going to get a good night’s sleep? OA: So one of the things to think about with that is, you know, if you’re already a little bit stressed, or have some anxiety about what’s going to be happening the next day, you don’t want to also be stressing about the fact that you don’t have enough time to sleep. So there are three metrics, if we think about it, there’s the sleep opportunity, which is the total amount of time a person spends in bed. So it’s like your opportunity to log in those sleep hours. Yeah, and then sleep duration, which is your total amount of time that you’re spending asleep, and their sleep efficiency. So it’s the percentage of time you’re asleep, relative to the amount of time that you’re spending in bed. AW: Wow. So I mean, I previously thought about it just in more simplistic terms, it was quality and quantity, but you’re breaking it down into opportunity, duration, and efficiency. I love that. OA: If you’re in bed for 10 hours, which is your sleep opportunity, and you sleep a total of eight hours, which is your sleep duration, then you would have an 80% sleep efficiency. And I think that’s an important thing to consider is, you know, when we think about, oh, I want to get eight hours of sleep, and then we go to bed giving ourselves literally eight hours from when we need to wake up. And that can create a little bit of stress as well, right? Especially if you don’t fall asleep right away. And then you’re lying awake thinking, Okay, great. Now I only have six hours to sleep. Now I have five hours to sleep and on and on that can definitely create a stressor. So one of the thing to do is just give yourself more time in bed. AW: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Just talking to my kids. Sometimes they say, Oh, you know, I went to bed at 10. But I didn’t get to sleep till after midnight, and it kind of stresses them out. So I think reminding them that sleep opportunity is kind of the first step to quality sleep, right? OA: Mm hmm. AW: We can talk about sleep hygiene as well. I’d love to hear what are the do’s and the don’ts. We’ve heard, you know, I mean, there’s some common advice out there about minimizing the amount of blue light or screens that you see immediately before you go to sleep. But maybe you can share with me and the listeners, just some of your top hacks that you personally do and recommend to others. OA: Starting with the blue light, which you’ve mentioned, that’s an important one because our body clock or circadian rhythm is governed largely by light and the signal that your body gets around what time of day it is even. And so with us spending so much time on artificial light, we often don’t get bright enough light during the day to suppress melatonin production. And so we may feel a little bit groggy throughout the day. And then more importantly, in the evening, when our body should be winding down, we should be boosting that melatonin production. We’re surrounded by so much artificial light in the evening that our body doesn’t get the signal that Okay, it’s time to wind down it’s time to get sleepy and prepare for bedtime. So blocking blue light in the evening is very important. I mean, I myself noticed that I would feel so much sleepier when I wear my blue light blocking glasses. AW: Hmm. So when do you wear them? OA: You know, starting after dinner. The longer the better in the evening, I would say three hours before bedtime is ideal. But even an hour before bedtime will still make a difference. So in terms of food, I would try to avoid a large meal again around three hours before bedtime. Because you don’t want to have your body digesting food and being busy with that when you really should be relaxing and taking the time to undergo that full body regeneration while you’re sleeping. And it can affect deep sleep as well. And then exercise – as well you know, and it’s different for everyone. So it’s something to experiment with. But the standard is kind of to avoid excessive exercise around three hours before bedtime as well because you just don’t want your adrenaline pumping when you’re trying to wind down and go to sleep. That said though. Lifting weights or doing strength training exercise around 6pm has been shown to actually boost deep sleep throughout the night. So it’s kind of like you know, extending all that built up energy or attention or frustration from the day. Just let it go. Do your strength training with some weights around 6pm. And it can actually boost your deep sleep that same night. I mean, I know a lot of people try to, you know, wake up early and get their workout in for the day. And that’s all right. I mean, you can’t be too regimented with all of these things where you’re starting to stress out about it. So you can only work out in the morning versus 6pm. That’s still getting that exercise. But it’s just a fun little tidbit, you know, to boost deep sleep even more, doing that, doing strength training around 6pm, or evening time seems to be effective. And then the last bit is around the environment and creating the right kind of environments to relax. So one of the things I had to do personally was turned down my thermostat, I used to keep my place at like tropical weather temperatures, I just wanted to walk around in a T shirt and shorts, and feel like it’s summertime all year round, despite the snow outside most of the year. And that’s not good for sleep. So ideally, we should be sleeping and around like 19 to 21 degrees, 22 degrees sometimes. So I’ve actually lowered my thermostat down. But it took some time, you know, it’s not like an overnight if you’re used to warm temperatures in the house, you’re going to be too cold. It’s going to be uncomfortable. So I kind of built myself up and gradually would go, you know, down half a degree a degree here and there. AW: So as you’re going through all of these tips, whether it’s light, or food or exercise or environment, I’m thinking to myself, these are all great things to incorporate in our lives every day. Why not? They’re relatively easy to adopt, you won’t necessarily do all of those things every day. But back to the original question about when you have a big meeting, or a job interview or big presentation, this could become your checklist? Like just make sure that these are the things that you do? OA: Everyone deals with stress differently. But it’s more about sleep opportunity: time. So you’re not stressing over that. Work-in some meditation time, if you can. And again, you know, everyone has different situations and lifestyles, even if it’s a guided meditation in your headphones that can work, I found that if I meditate for 30 minutes before sleep, it really does boost my deep sleep actually. So and then you’re also just already in that mental headspace of feeling more relaxed. And then as you mentioned, just keeping up that sleep hygiene of creating that environment, you know, removing light from the bedrooms, because our eyes can actually register light, even with our eyes closed, you know, you may not wake up, but your eyes are still registering that light, and it can disrupt your sleep on the sense that you may not be spending as much time in deep sleep. Another good technique is like writing down your anxious thoughts, you know, just do some journaling, getting them down on paper, whatever works for you to kind of de stress and relax. There’s so many different apps that can help with that too, you know, headspace, calm or different journaling apps. AW: Okay, I will leave links to some of those apps in the show notes. And I think the journaling thing is really interesting. I’ve been journaling in the morning, but you know what, maybe I should be journaling in the evening, because then I’m not on a screen. Right? OA: Yeah, reducing screen time is a big one for sure. Yeah. AW: Yeah. It’s like a double whammy. If you journal in the evening. You’re not you’re not watching the screen. Thank you for that. Before we go any further. I just need to clarify. You said eight hours at the beginning. But how many hours are adults supposed to be getting? Is it seven, eight? I’ve heard nine or a range of seven to nine. And are we talking actually the duration of sleep? Or is it time in bed and does napping count? OA: Yeah. So good question. I know the US National Sleep Foundation recommends seven to nine hours of sleep for healthy adults. And that’s ages 18 to 65.. And then the Harvard Medical School actually says that sleeping fewer than about eight hours per night on a regular basis seems to increase the risk of developing a number of medical conditions. So they’re essentially coming out and saying that if you’re sleeping for fewer than eight on a consistent basis, then that can lead to health disruptions. So I would say eight hours is probably ideal, AW: and is that duration? OA: Eight hours asleep. AW:  So we need to be in bed for more than eight hours then. OA: Exactly. AW: What about napping? OA: It’s an interesting one. Because you know, if you had a bad night of sleep, then you mean need to have that power nap during the day just to boost your energy. So about 30 minutes can be a good energy boost. But if you’re consistently feeling like you need a nap, then you’re not sleeping enough at night. AW: Okay, so now I want to move into what we should do if it’s the middle of the night and we can’t sleep. Our mind is spinning with stressors and feeling anxious and we just can’t sleep but maybe starting Should we stay in bed? Or should we get up? OA: I’ve heard different things on this one. I mean, I think it comes down to what works for the individual. I’ve heard the getting up and getting out of bed. For me personally, that doesn’t really make much of a difference. But you know, there’s different things that you could do. I mean, even the most extreme example of what you can do if you wake up and go back to sleep is taking a cold shower. Actually, it seems very counterintuitive, because you figure Oh, you know, that’s just gonna jolt me awake. But… AW: Oksana, I’d have to say, you and your cold showers. Well, after I interviewed you the first time, I tried the cold shower thing, and you just about killed me. (LOL) OA: I know, it’s a pretty extreme example. But I actually tried this myself before when I was battling my insomnia about two years ago. And I was trying all the things and there was a night where I actually forced myself to get out of bed and get in the shower and take a cold shower. And it was not pleasant. But it worked. It really did. I fell asleep because it cools down your core body temperature, which needs to happen in order to get into those deep sleep states. AW: You know what, it makes sense, actually, because then when you come back into bed, you just want to cuddle with your comforter and you know, get to sleep, right? OA: Yeah. AW: Interesting one. So you know what I usually do when I can’t sleep, which doesn’t happen very often. But what it does, I do just like a personal meditation where I do a body scan, I start at the top of my head and I go down to the tip of my toes relaxing every body part. And I kind of I tell myself sometimes if I’m still awake when I get down to the tip of my toes, I say, but at least my body’s fully, fully relaxed. OA: Yeah, I mean, it definitely helps. And I’m a big proponent of that too. And binaural beats is another one where you’re using brain entrainment to get yourself down into those delta and theta relaxed brainwaves. And ease yourself back into sleep that can really help and there are so many free apps. So there’s so much great content for sleep and binaural beats where you do have to listen to with earphones, because essentially, the way it works is projecting a different sound frequency and each year, which is why it’s called binaural. And what you hear is the difference between those frequencies. So it’s very interesting because it’s, you know, fooling your brain into emitting those more relaxed brainwaves. AW: Very cool. Very cool. So again, I’m gonna put some links to that in the show notes. I have an inkling these show notes are going to be highly accessed. One more question before we move on to the five rapid fire questions. And that is, what’s your take on melatonin or other supplements to help us when we’re desperately in need of sleep? OA: Melatonin is can be used, you know, to boost sleep or help ease ourselves into sleep, especially if we have a night where we have to stay up on the computer. I mean, I would recommend using a red screen or installing an app on your devices that turns your screen red so that at least you’re not getting that blue light if you have to be on doing screen time. But melatonin here and there. I mean, I haven’t seen any studies saying that that for you. Of course with any supplement, you know, it’s not recommended to use, you know, chronically for a prolonged amount of time. But I think as like a rescue supplement, I use it myself, but there are other supplements as well to consider so magnesium is a great one. A lot of people are low in magnesium overall. But Magnesium bisglycinate is a form that can help with sleep or help promote relaxation. There are even magnesium sprays you can buy that you kind of like rub on your arms or legs too. And you can get magnesium that way or like creams even, so I have the spray myself too. And then L-theanine is a supplement that helps promote alpha brainwaves. So it’s a more relaxed state than beta brainwaves. So if you’re not anxious state, that can be a great supplement to try as well. And then if someone is experienced struggling with insomnia, 5HTP + GABA stacked together. There was a randomized control trial done with insomnia, and that specific stack helps boost sleep as well. So that’s one that I’ve used as my own personal, like anti insomnia, rescue, supplements stack. So 5HTP + GABA, and then others like Valerian root has been great for promoting relaxation. There’s so many different sleep supplements out there. A lot of times finding what works for you passion flowers, another one. Okay, so yeah, just kind of playing around and seeing what, what helps. AW: Well, as you’re going through this list, some of them I haven’t even heard of, and I don’t I certainly don’t know how to spell them. So I’m gonna have to get that from you. And I can again, imagine what the listeners are going to want to go to the shownotes. And it’s almost like a checklist that we’ve created here of all the various things that we can do in terms of light in terms of our environment. In terms of nutrition, in terms of exercise, in terms of supplements, in terms of timing all of these things appropriately during our day and in the evening before we go to sleep. So this is amazing. And but the other bonus here is that I am more motivated now to get sleep than I was before. So I just want to say thank you Oksana! OA: Oh, I’m so glad! Yeah, yeah, sleep is all good. We should all be getting more sleep. And it’s hard. AW: It’s free. I didn’t hear you say that before. It’s free. I get now why sleep is your number one thing. Let’s move on then to the five rapid fire questions that I ask every guest Are you ready? OA: I’m ready. AW: Okay, question number one. What are your pet peeves? OA: I don’t know if it’s a pet peeve. But I feel like especially if I’m if I’m listening to a recording – slow talkers for me. I feel like I’m a slow talker. But for me personally, like oh, people, just spit it out. You know? AW: So you when you listen to podcasts and audiobooks you turn up the speed? OA: Yeah, I listened to them at like two times the speed. AW: I think it depends on who’s speaking or reading, right? So the fastest I’ve ever done, I think is 1.7. And that was crazy fast. But I really wanted to get through a book when I was driving. OK, question number two, what type of learner are you? OA: I would say visual and but maybe it’s kinesthetic. I know for sure. I’m not an auditory learner. Because if I’m listening to a podcast, like I’m always writing notes for myself, and that helps me even if I never read those notes again after it just helps me remember the information. AW: Question number three, introvert or extrovert? OA: I would say I’m a social introvert. Definitely introverted in the sense that that’s where I get how I re energize, but I love to socialize. So there’s that double whammy. Yeah. AW: Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations. OA: I message, WhatsApp. I feel like a lot of my conversations happen. Instagram DMS as well. Even with close friends, since everyone’s on Instagram. So really, you know, you can respond. AW: Yeah. Okay. And last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? OA: I feel like I always recommend The Drive by Dr. Peter Attia. It’s one of my favorite podcasts just because the quality of information and research and how he breaks everything down. It’s a great podcast but also the newsletters to I really enjoy it. someone’s interested in diving into biohacking and optimizing health and longevity as a lot of great doctors on this podcast. Great. It’s almost like you’re getting a free doctor consult every time you listen, it’s just full of information. AW: Oh, I’m definitely gonna check it out. And again, I’m gonna put a link to it in the shownotes. And that’s it. I want to say Oksana, thank you so, so much for not only sharing with us how to sleep, but why to sleep. OA: I’m so happy that you had me on this podcast. And this was so much fun. Thank you for letting me share my number one longevity hack, and I hope everyone is able to sleep better and sleep longer. AW: Me too. Thank you so much. Oksana. OA: Thanks, Andrea. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING!     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #65 I NEED SLEEP with biohacker & biotechnology scientist Oksana Andreiuk appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“Any leader who doesn’t genuinely step into culture as a business imperative, five years from now will look back at this as one of the greatest missed opportunities of their time in leadership. Your culture can unleash all sorts of creativity that you can’t begin to imagine. And if you’re a leader and you don’t see the chance to do that right now, you’re missing the greatest opportunity – that’s being handed to you, on a plate.” (Hilton Barbour, 2020) REFERENCES Hilton Barbour https://www.hiltonbarbour.com/ LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiltonbarbour/ Twitter – @ZimHilton Recommendations: “PIVOT” podcast (Scott Galloway & Kara Swisher) – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pivot/id1073226719 Tobias Sturesson –“Leading Transformational Change” podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/020-mary-gentile-giving-voice-to-values/id1504162092?i=1000489278967 Tobias Sturesson on LinkedIn –https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiassturesson/ Culture “Think Do Say” by Ron Tite Stan Slap – Slap Company – https://slapcompany.com/ Peter Drucker – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker Edgar Schein – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schein Ron Tite – THINK DO SAY – https://amzn.to/38YQ5pw       Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Website – https://talkabouttalk.com  Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you, Hilton, so much for joining us here today to talk about culture. HILTON BARBOUR: It’s an absolute pleasure, Andrea, what a delightful opportunity to reconnect. So thank you for that. AW: Let’s start with a definition. What is culture? HB: Well, I can tell you first what culture isn’t. Culture isn’t beer on Fridays and vegan muffins in the cafeteria. And often those wonderful posters that people put on the wall. There are two definitions of culture that ring very true for me, one quite academic, which is: Culture is how we act, behave, and make decisions to fit into an organization. And I think there’s a lot of truth around the two parts of make decisions and fit in. The second, and this is a definition that I’ve heard quite recently: Culture is how the edges of your organization behave on your very worst day. AW: Wow. HB: And I think in light of COVID, that probably was the most profound statement that I’d heard from any executive about the impact of culture. AW: So in both definitions, it’s really about the people. So in your first definition, it’s about how they’re acting, how they’re behaving, how they’re making decisions, and fitting in conforming or not conforming. And in the second definition, it’s also about that, in particular, the ones that are on the periphery. So is culture really, people management? HB: I would say culture is everything to do with humans inside our organization. You know, I always have a visceral reaction to the notion of management. There can be all sorts of weird misinterpretations of the word manage. And certainly I have an even more visceral reaction around the word human resources. AW: I was gonna ask. HB: Well, there are certain phrases that I think management theorists coined, whether it’s the 1960’s or 1980s, where they seem to put people in boxes. And I think the unfortunate thing is, the connotation becomes that this is something to be used and casually tossed aside when I’ve finished with it. AW: It sounds like an asset that you can leverage. And then throw out. HB: Absolutely, and I have no problem. And in fact, I think this an excellent point around humans, actually are some of the greatest, most incredible assets that any business has. I think the struggle that I have is when those assets are seen as easily replaceable, and asset to be exploited or an asset to be underutilized, which can often be as crushing as anything else. That part of the asset stripping is what really gets me around some of these terms and how they are applied to culture and organizations today. AW: Right. So I just want to clarify a little bit more in terms of the definition, you said that it’s looking at humans that are inside the organization. And I’m curious, what about customers and consumers? HB: Well, I think the customers and consumers so profoundly impacted by the culture. I will talk to leaders around customer service, which is for many organizations, the most explicit objective that they will put down, we are a customer centric organization, which then you and I would both love it in terms of: what would be the alternative? But the irony is that customer centricity is actually an outcome of your culture, not an objective, it’s an outcome, your culture will determine whether your people are profoundly interested in serving customers, or see customers as a necessary requirement. And I’ll put a plastic smile on the face and do the very bare minimum to serve them. I think the wonderful examples obviously, Starbucks would be an organization whose customer centricity is without debate. And I think the profound and deep training for the people highlights that they recognize that customer centricity is what happens when you get your culture right. AW: Have you read Ron Tite’s “Think, Do, Say”? HB: I have indeed, Ron is an old friend, and just a fantastic all around human being. AW: Yeah, I adore his mind. I have to be honest. And I just finished his book recently. And I’m thinking now that you’ve mentioned Starbucks, he talks about lots of examples where I’m not sure that he actually uses the word culture, but he is describing a culture where the corporate beliefs are articulated. That’s what they think. And then they do it. And then they say it. And he talks a lot about, for example, the Westin Hotel in Vancouver that bent over backwards to delight him and that was part of their culture. HB: Look, I think we can both agree that any organization that delivers Diet Coke to Ton Tite’s room is going to be considered a high point of customer service. And all joking aside, his point is incredibly valid. Customer Service comes from a deep understanding of what is unique about that customer and the things that they value. But here’s a great Canadian example, a great international example board. Here in Canada, which is the Four Seasons, I mean, is Izzy Sharp’s understanding of culture as a differentiator, particularly in the hospitality sector is unprecedented. There is an organization based on a very simple cultural premise of the golden rule. And following that up with, we trust our people to solve what our guests require, and having the trust again, I think that that’s something that is he pioneered.  Four Seasons was decades ahead of everybody else … pushing trust and confidence down to the point where the guest and the organization meet. And I think many other organizations came to that realization decades later, but it really does set the Four Seasons apart. Sadly, I don’t get to enjoy the Four Seasons, as much as I may have done before COVID. AW: Exactly. HB: But I desperately look forward to that day. Hello Four Seasons! AW: The hotels are gonna be overflowing with happy people. So you mentioned the word intersection. And before we move on, I just, I have to ask you this. At the top of your website, it says, strategy is the engine culture is the fuel. HB: Mmm hmm. AW: can you elaborate on the distinction or maybe the interaction between culture and strategy? HB: Sure. Both of us come from a marketing background. And, you know, my foray, and deep and abiding passion for culture really is informed by what I’d say is our shared marketing background, you know, which is, you create this wonderful strategy, this this breathtaking plan, ideally, in less than 400 PowerPoint slides. AW: Haha. HB: And then you march it into an executive team, and they anoint it. Go make that happen. And then you leave the boardroom with a big smile on your face, and you take it into the organization and the organization says, What do you want me to do with that? AW: Yeah. HB: Didn’t you ask me to do something different last year? Last year I did that thing. I actually didn’t get rewarded for it the way you told me I would. All of us have seen Peter Drucker’s sadly mis-quoted thing about culture eats strategy in LinkedIn, at least 10 or 15 times a day, right? There is an inherent truth in that, because there is no organization whose strategy and critically importantly, the ability to execute that strategy that doesn’t have to come face to face with the culture’s willingness to do it. And that, for me, is always the most critical part. A strategy is a fantastic blueprint and a roadmap and ideally set of objectives. But somebody somewhere is going to put their hand up and say, I’m on board, what can I do to make that happen? And that’s all about the commitment of your people. And again, that to me, is culture. AW: Got it. So is a simple way of thinking about it would be to say that the strategy is the objectives and the priorities that are articulated. And the culture is the how? HB: Absolutely. Andrea, the truth of the matter is, unless your strategy and your culture are aligned, you’re never going to be able to as effectively execute what you’re trying to set up. You know, in previous conversations, you had said to me, why this passion for culture? Isn’t that the domain of HR people? AW: Did I say that? HB: No, you would never do something like that. But I think it’s a sad and unfortunate reality. HR has been given the responsibility for culture, where the truth of the matter is, it is almost the catalyst for everything that does or does not happen inside an organization is a tremendous responsibility. And that for me is why there is a role for marketing, a very important role for marketing to play in culture formation. Because the end of the day, I believe that your culture is truly your only sustainable competitive advantage. What gets any marketer out of bed in the morning? A sustainable competitive advantage. AW: right. So my next question for you was going to be Why does culture matter? Culture encourages loyalty, it encourages consumer resonance, and it ultimately would contribute to the bottom line. I think what you’ve identified here is something that kind of supersedes all of that. It’s like an umbrella over all of that. HB: So one of my favorite people who work in the culture space, this is great guy called Stan Slap. I mean, Stan gets kudos just for his incredible name. But Stan’s belief is your culture is actually a mark of the commitment of your people. And I can’t think of a better way to define it. And I think anybody be listening to this can probably do a quick little mental analysis and probably point out at least one organization where their commitment was head and shoulders above the commitment they had to any other task or role or job that they had. AW: Can I just interject, as you’re saying that I’m thinking about the employers that I’ve had. And it turns out that the ones that are at the top of that mountain that you’re describing, have incredible brands with incredible brand equity, and the ones that I would say had a questionable culture, the brand was not as impressive. HB: I would say, you know, you reap what you sow. For me the simple definition of your culture, it’s not whether it’s good or bad. I think those are rather binary pre-sets and actually obscure thigs.  What culture really is, if your culture is able to accelerate the delivery, the execution, the activation of your strategy, and your culture is actually delivering what you need it to do as a business leader, right? If your culture is impeding the execution of your strategy, then something’s wrong. It’s either your strategy isn’t believed by your culture, or your culture looks at your strategy and says, what exactly you wanting us to do? Are you insane? AW: They’re inconsistent. Yeah. HB: The incongruence is where the issue lies. You can’t look at your culture as a binary term and say, Is it good or bad? And as outsiders, it’s impossible for us to really make those determinations. I can’t comment of working at Amazon, or Apple or Facebook, or Google or JP Morgan, right? As outsiders, we can look at artifacts. And you know, the famous culture guru, if you will, Edgar Schein would say, there are artifacts, but it’s, it’s when you get down to the level where decisions are made to really understand how our culture works. And it isn’t the posters on the wall. And it is the cute things that we say on coffee mugs, etc, etc. It’s how our decisions are made. And those decisions are driven by your culture. AW: So I am dying to hear some of the stories that you have. And I do know that you are the son of an African father and a Scottish mother and you are a heck of a storyteller. So I’m wondering when someone asks you to illustrate an example of a highly effective or maybe a highly ineffective culture and the impact that it has on an organization, what stories come to mind? HB: How long is this podcast again? How many days? AW: Three hours. Go for it. HB: Fair enough. Okay. There are two examples for me that solidified my belief in culture is something that has an impact on strategy and culture is something that marketing people, I think, should be paying infinitely more attention to. One, I was but a young pup, does that sound like a wonderful story starter? AW: Yeah. Okay, grandpa. Okay, Boomer, HB: I was at Ogilvy here in Toronto, and some colleagues that I worked with, on one of the global heads of business said, Have you ever considered working in New York? And obviously, the immediate answer was, yes, I can be on the next plane. And they said, Well, we had this very interesting client, very progressive, very sort of innovative, doing all sorts of weird and crazy things. We need people who would be invigorated by that type of assignment. I said, sign me up. What’s his company called? And they said, it’s called Enron. Yeah, you might have heard of them. Or you may not in Canada, because they’re in oil and gas, and they’re based in Texas, but they diversifying into all sorts of other things. But they are a remarkable organization. So I went down to New York, I moved to New York, and I went immediately to work on the Enron business. And I must tell you, it was probably nine or 10 months later, when I was flying back to Toronto, and Enron was plastered all over the front covers of every business magazine that you could read. AW: I remember that well, yeah, HB: …that I sort of reflected on Wow, I’ve never been exposed to an organization with such an incredibly dense feeling of winning at all costs. It was a win at all costs, peppered with more alpha males per square foot than almost any other boardroom that I’ve been in anywhere in the world. It’s easy in hindsight, but there was very much a sense of the rules don’t apply to us. It was certainly something in the air, where those belief systems were very evident, even to an outsider like myself. So that was one example. The other example when I was working in the UK, and a dear friend and I were presenting to a group of technology engineers, and he held up the very first Apple iPhone. And if we can all remember what that looked like? And then with this wonderful British accent he said, you gentlemen realize that this is the future of mobile telephony? And they burst into laughter and one of the gentlemen leaned toward me and said, what does that music company know about mobile phones? AW: Wow. HB: And we were at a presentation in Espoo, Finland, which is the global headquarters of Nokia. So at the time, you have an organization that had upwards of 80, to 85% penetration of mobile phones globally, looking at somebody like Apple out in California, on the other end of the world, other side of the world and going, what does that upstart know about what we’ve done? What we’ve created in almost every other market in the planet, there isn’t a data point about mobile phones that we do not have in this building. In that moment, I think I must have hidden under the desk when my colleague said that. I was like, Oh, dear Lord, you’re not gonna embarrass us again with the Apple is the future comment. But as I think back on those two episodes, I look at them as reflections or manifestations of the culture inherent at those organizations. Now we can paraphrase them as blind spots, we can paraphrase, you know,… AW:  What comes to mind for me is that they seem myopic. So for the Enron story, you said they win at all costs. HB: Yeah, right. AW: And then for the cell phone companies, you’re talking about one player who’s looking at the future. And another one that’s saying, but we already know everything, which seems really myopic. HB: And this is, again, one of those interesting things about culture, culture, sorry, let me, let me rephrase. AW: I’m gonna edit the heck out of this…Haha. Actually, that’s going to be in the bloopers now. Go ahead. HB: There we go.  Organizations that are successful, inherently create a self-fulfilling prophecy around the culture. Otherwise, they would have gone out of business. So the reality of we’ve been successful, we are brilliant, can be very much a big glass of Kool Aid, that everybody starts to drink. It can quite quickly occur. What was originally an entrepreneurial spirit can very quickly become what I would call classic calcification. The culture hardens into a we know everything about everything. There’s nothing that’s a surprise to us. And I think that’s a dangerous point for cultures, if you’re not keeping an eye on have we hardened our culture in areas that exposed us to missing signals in the market, or changes in the way that people think, act work, behave. I mean, I think for the organizations that perhaps have struggled the most with COVID is the ones whose culture was so hard and fast around aspects like what if I can’t see my team, they’re obviously goofing off on Facebook, right? So there’s no way that remote working could ever happen inside this organization. Because I don’t trust my team. There’s no way they’ll be productive. Along comes a global pandemic that didn’t get that memo about how you think about culture. So I think for the organizations and the leaders that I’ve been most inspired by, they’re the ones who recognize that culture is not a one and done thing. It’s something that you have to work on every single day. And much like a professional sports team, you’ve got to be testing the edges all the time to say, am I getting the maximum out of these people? And what can I do to inspire them to even greater heights? And what am I doing that’s possibly impeding their ability? And that’s what true leaders who get culture obsess about. AW: So what’s the relationship between culture and values, then, like corporate values? HB: Well, if you’re asking the idealist me, the idealist would say your values are a reflection of what you want your culture to be and what your culture is, or could be. AW: Okay. HB: If I’m being a realist, our values are the things that we bang up on posters on the wall, and we put on coffee mugs, and every quarter somebody from our executive team comes in chance them at the start of some old staff meeting. And then 20 minutes later, we go back to behaving the way that we do. That is where the schism exists. AW: So that’s a beautiful segue then into my next question, which is about communication. And as you know, Talk About Talk is all about communication. So if creating and sustaining a positive and strong culture is not about identifying values and plastering them all over the walls, how does an effective leader communicate the culture that he or she wants in an organization? HB: I would suggest communication is absolutely foundational, Andrea. Well, it is. It’s absolutely foundational. All communication is always a signal of intent. You communicate to signal a direction and intend to a purpose. Those are all vitally important for your culture. Your culture needs some sense of where do you want to go? What do you want to achieve? Why do you want believe that your culture looks to communication in its multitude of artifacts, because those are signals, but then it looks at those signals and it says, What do you told me this one thing? Yeah. And now shockingly, I’m now going to evaluate your behaviors against those. And if the delta between what you say and what you do, you can drive an ocean liner through, well, then you can expect people not to feel skeptical. AW: I love how you brought up the term artifacts a few times because I feel like the artifacts are almost like the communication medium, or tools that are being employed to encourage the permeation of the culture. Yes, that makes sense. HB: It’s very easy for me to call on Stan Slap again. Your culture is perpetually looking for signs that validate its survival. And I think as humans inside an organization, we can probably all look to our own behaviors and the way we’ve acted inside companies and said, there’s an enormous truth in that. I can’t say enough, particularly in the spirit of this particular podcast, that communications are absolutely vital. Yeah. As they are in any interaction between two human beings. Communication is one of the most primary things that we do to connect to understand each other, to bond with each other. These are all outcomes of communication. They’re also all outcomes of communication that has clarity that has consistency. That is an idiom, as old as time. AW: Yeah, consistency. And, and integration of everything of all of these elements that we’ve been talking about is a mantra of mine, which reminds me that I recently read an article. It’s actually an interview that you wrote, where you interviewed the CEO of the Citizens Bank of Edmond and and she said, she heard someone in a beauty salon talking about the this horrible bank with a horrible woman leading it. And she said, Well, that’s me. And she did manage to turn it around. And they have a mantra. They call themselves the MacGyver of banking. And I thought, That’s beautiful. implicit in that entire interview that I read is communication, communication, communication, do you find that mantras are common in corporations with strong positive cultures? HB: Yes, I would say most organizations probably have some way, a manifestation or a manifesto of we believe these following things are critically important. I think, again, this is me speaking as perhaps a marketing person, I look at many of those and go, those are just statements of fact, I look at the banking industry. And I would encourage anybody listening to this to open the website of 100 random banks across the world and go to the values of culture section of those websites and see if the woods trust and honesty and… AW: that’s the baseline, it better be, right? HB: Absolutely. If honesty is not wired into the DNA of the people on all of my financial business, I’ve got a really big problem. Again, I’m always struck by – regardless of what you say, if that isn’t reinforced by what you do – a subtle hat tip to our dear friend, Mr. Ron Tite. AW: I was just thinking, think do say. I have one more question for you, before we move on to the five rapid fire questions. My last question here for you is do you have any specific advice for leaders who are aspiring to create a strong positive culture these days? Before we press record, we’re talking about now more than ever, and what I’m talking about is in in these day of the COVID pandemic, and working from home, what kind of advice would you give to senior executives and leaders who are really trying to create a strong positive culture in their organization? HB: Let’s say two things. Let’s say number one: Do you honestly and objectively know the culture you have today? Time and again, leaders are probably the least objective about the cultures inside their organization. So that would be number one. Do you know that and are you being objective about that culture? The second thing, and this is reflective of all of us going through COVID. This is this is a time unlike any of that in modern history. So for any leader who still consider themselves omnipotent and omnipresent, and the owner of every single answer, the only person you’re fooling is yourself. Leaders prepared to publicly recognize they don’t have all the answers are the ones that will gain significant credibility, because the truth of the matter is, nobody’s crystal ball is working right now. So if you continue to suggest that you know everything and are invincible and invulnerable, I think you lose immediate credibility, there’s never been a better time and a better opportunity more likely for you to be objective about your culture. And for you to be objective and vulnerable about your leadership, both of those things I suggest will provide the opportunity for your organization to genuinely thrive and for you to create a culture that attracts talent like a magnet. And isn’t that what every leader wants today? AW: Very true. And now, we’re gonna move on to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? HB: Is this not the time that I hang up and move on and do something? This is the most terrifying part of this entire podcast. Andrea, please be gentle. AW: Okay, ready. Number one. What are your pet peeves? HB: I live with three incredible and beautiful women, my wife and two daughters. Pet peeve? makeup everywhere. But then they would say: you never put the top on the toothpaste, dad. So this is our revenge. AW: Nice, nice. Okay. Question number two, what type of learner are you? HB: I would say visual. It befuddles my wife, but I can sit with my headphones on listening to music quite loudly, and read a book and write, which is like how do you manage to do that? Because the music inspires me. And then I learn more as I’m reading. AW: Wow. HB: Maybe I’ve just highlighted another weird thing about me. Maybe we can edit the weirdness out of this podcast if that’s possible. AW: Well, if you’re a visual learner, I would love to see your visual depiction of what culture is. HB: Hmm, that sounds ominously like a homework exercise. AW: You don’t have it, or you have it? Or you’re saving them for your clients? Haha. Okay. HB: Isn’t this the moment where I do the Austin Powers strokey beard thing? AW: LOL. You know what? When I work with clients, and they describe things, I’m so visual, I’m also a painter, like I paint and I’m so off the charts, which is kind of strange for a podcaster. But I grab a piece of paper and I start making arrows and maybe it’s a common marketing thing. I wonder? HB: Well, there’s no strategy person in the world who doesn’t know the power of an intersecting Venn diagram now. Look, what happens when these three Venns intersect? AW: Haha. Yeah, forget the two by two. Okay. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? HB: Well, that’s tough. Extrovert. Extrovert, I think, if that’s okay with you, I’m a Canadian extrovert. If it’s right with you, I’m an extrovert. AW: That’s funny. Okay, question number four: communication preference for personal conversations. HB: Pick up the phone and bore them to tears by talking at them for three hours. AW: Oh, there you go. Really? HB: I probably have about 200 annual reviews from various organizations that say we really wish Hilton would get to the point and stop being so loquacious. And I said, Well, nobody told Chaucer that, or Shakespeare that, or Milton that. So why do you want me to be less loquacious? Come on now… Yeah, so I prefer a phone call over sitting like my teenage daughters texting their friends, even if they’re in the same room… AW: And yet you’re not an auditory learner. HB: I’m also mixed up. Andrea, I make no apologies. AW: You’re very ambiguous. Okay. Question number five. Is there a podcast or blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending to people lately? HB: There’s a multitude. Obviously, I will be adding this particular podcast episode to everybody on the planet. AW: that goes without saying HB: there are a couple that are my go-to standards. Obviously Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher. Absolutely phenomenal. AW: I just I just interviewed Andrew Jenkins, who’s a social media guru. Do you know Andrew Jenkins? HB: Yes I do, indeed. AW: And that was his first recommendation as well. HB: Yeah, those two are all full of piss and vinegar, which makes it an interesting podcast. There’s a Swedish podcast in English by this wonderful gentleman called Tobias Sturesson. That’s around building adaptive organizations. And Tobias in such a wonderful fashion manages to find people on the edges of management thinking people who talk about ethics, people who talk about integrity, people who talk about, it just has these wonderful conversations with him. So you know, Tobias, if you’re listening to this, you’re doing great work, Brother, please keep it up. AW: Great. I will put a link to that in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about culture? HB: My closing thoughts on culture would be the following. The times that we are living through now provides such an incredible opportunity for any leader to genuinely step into culture as a business imperative, and then as a competitive advantage. And that any leader who doesn’t do that now, five years from now will look back at that as one of the greatest missed opportunities of their time in leadership. Your culture can unleash all sorts of creativity that you can’t begin to imagine. And if you’re a leader and you don’t see the chance to do that right now, I say you’re missing the greatest opportunity handed to you on a plate. AW: Very, very well put. Thank you so much for everything Hilton. It was lots of fun to chat. HB: Always a delight speaking with you, Andrea. Let’s not make it so long next time. Okay? AW: And so formal!  Haha. HB: Of course. I didn’t know how to – I didn’t know what to do for the final finish here. If I was on the ball I’d have a little meme of me dropping a mic. I don’t know. I don’t know. I guess BOOM – sign off… Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com                   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #64 CORPORATE CULTURE IN TODAY’s ENVIRONMENT with Hilton Barbour appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Learn 5 key communication insights for educators, including the positive impact of technology in the classroom.  Chris Besse shares how edtech platforms like Edsby make education more student-centric, they enable communication and collaboration, they enable accessibility and immediacy of information, and they encourage students to learn how to learn.   REFERENCES Chris Besse & Edsby Chris on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-besse-24b03b11/ Edsby – https://www.edsby.com/ Andrea Wojnicki & Chris Besse at “THE FUTURE OF LEARNING” Ensemble Conference, October 2020   Other Resources for Educators “THE FUTURE OF LEARNING” Ensemble online conference: video – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJXimdr3bT0 website – https://www.ensembleco.com/volume-13 Mistakes of new teachers – http://ajjuliani.com/15-mistakes-new-teachers-make-learned/ Benefits of multi-media – https://www.nuiteq.com/company/blog/5-benefits-of-multimedia-learning# Confidence vs arrogance – https://talkabouttalk.com/what-is-confidence-blog/ Parenting teens and online learning with learning strategist Kimberley Acres – https://talkabouttalk.com/49-parenting-teens-podcast/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ FB – https://www.facebook.com/TalkingAboutTalk IG – https://www.instagram.com/talkingabouttalk/?hl=en   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thanks so much for being here, Chris.  Chris Besse: Oh, pleasure, Andrea, thank you for having me.  AW: As I told you before, Chris, two of my kids go to a school that’s been using Edsby for years. And I’m a big fan. So I thought, why don’t we start by having you share with everyone? What is Edsby? CB: That is awesome. I’m so glad that your kids are using it, and that you like it. So Edsby is really the most comprehensive digital learning and data system available in K to 12. It really is a central, virtual meeting spot for students and teachers, administrators and parents. It keeps everyone in the loop and engages all the stakeholders. So for students, they can see their class schedules and their assignments, they interact in a familiar private social media-like system, safe from the public internet. Parents see their child’s homework and grades. And even better, they get a window into their child’s. Teachers get course planning, attendance, assessment tools. And administrators can access district wide analytics and identify students at risk. Everybody gets what they need in real time in one app. AW: I would love to elaborate in a minute on that collaboration, that communication, that’s a huge benefit of Edsby. But I just want to back up a minute and kind of state the obvious with what’s been going on in the world with the global pandemic, I’ve observed that Edsby and other education platforms have really accelerated in terms of their adoption and their proliferation in various educational environments. Can you talk a little bit about that? CB: Yeah, absolutely. I mean,  you talk to anybody who’s in the digital education space, and they would say they’ve had rapid adoption ever since COVID-19 happened. COVID – for education, it’s been a real accelerator. And the reason is because like every other industry, we were forced to do things differently.  Education has stuck to the status quo for so many years. What would the OECD say? They know that student engagement has plummeted over the last 10 years and lost pace with technological advances.  the education sector has one of the slowest adoption rates for digital technologies at two to 3% of total spending. And generally speaking, if you walked into a classroom today, it wouldn’t be all that different than what it looked like when we were in school, or even when our parents were in school:  teacher centric, lectures and textbooks . AW: right.  CB: But what education has done extremely well is research. Research on optimizing what the learning environment should look like, and how to prepare our kids for the world that awaits them. The problem is there’s been this kind of buffer between what we know is good for learning, and what we’re actually doing for learning. And some of that research, I’d say, is what are those skills and competencies required for today’s learner?  We hear about 21st century learning. What does that mean? Well, it means how do we build competency in our kids around creativity, around communication, collaboration, critical thinking, computing and character education? These are vital to students in their learning as we move forward? How do we move to a student-centric learning model where students are empowered in their own learning, where teachers are guiding and framing and assessing and coaching? And then lastly, how do we leverage digital tools to drive greater efficiencies in the learning process. So we’ve had this disconnect between what we know is best and implementing what is best. So COVID hits in March. 98% of the world’s student population’s schools close. We have no choice but to move to this alternative mode of education delivery. I mean, this was just thrown upon us, and it was thrown upon education leaders and educators and teachers, etc. And they had to transition on the fly, as did parents. I mean, all of a sudden, parents were hosting the school. AW: Right.  CB: And I heard this great quote from one of Canada’s leading superintendents, where he called the pandemic “a fuel for transformation”. And it’s no different than any other sector. Businesses are operating remotely, what’s happened to restaurants, what’s happened to just our social lives, etc. We’ve learned to adapt because that’s what human beings do. And education is no different. So the barriers protecting the status quo have been forced down, and we now have this incredible opportunity to implement what we already know is best for learning.  AW: Right. So I love that take, there is a silver lining, right? It has served as a catalyst to accelerate our advancement in education, in medicine, and some businesses have pivoted and flourished as well. Can you talk a little bit about how the adoption of educational technology platforms like Edsby will improve learning opportunities for students? How is it going to enrich the learning experience? CB: Well, at the core of it is it optimizing communication, collaboration and connection between the stakeholders in learning, namely, obviously, the student, the teacher, and the parent, those are the key stakeholders. And so you need some sort of central communication tool that allows that to happen. AW: So can I just interject and say, as a parent, it is fantastic to have access to this platform where I can see what’s upcoming. So on the weekend, I can say, hey, you have a test on Tuesday, you need to study. And also I can see test scores immediately. I don’t have to wait for report cards, and communication and collaboration really is – are the two words that I would say, kind of sum up one of the biggest benefits, at least as a parent.  CB: Historically, students have been the gatekeepers of information flow between the school and the home. What information did you have about your child’s learning? iI really came in three modes. One was the report card you mentioned. And what’s a report card? It’s a piece of paper that comes out three times a year, and with a bunch of numbers or letters on it. What does that really mean about my child’s learning? So you have that. And then you have these parent teacher interviews, which are more like speed dating events, where you have your five minutes, you get into no depth really, and understanding regarding how your child is doing. And then the third, and probably most important flow of information comes from your own child. And that’s usually,  how was school today? What did you do at school today? And  the typical answer of a child is I’m not sure, I don’t know. So you don’t really get a lot of information. AW: How was your day? Great. What did you learn? Nothing. CB: Exactly. And so now, when, as you said, you have a front row seat at your child’s learning, because you have access to their learning. The conversation when your child gets home changes, it’s not what did you do at school today? It’s, hey, I saw you speaking French, what were you saying? That was really cool. Or, I saw your project you were presenting that was really interesting. And now your child lights up, because they want to tell you, and it changes the dynamics. So the scientists would say that is so powerful around brain development, etc., and around empowering kids around their learning. So you’re absolutely right, that’s one of the best thing. And I would add, also, if you’re a straight-A student, or you have a child as a straight-A student, that’s not as much an issue, but many of our kids are vulnerable, they’re having issues learning. They’re stressed. And when a parent can actually see and help and support…  Because parents want to do anything for their child. And as you said, when you can see that they’ve got a homework assignment due next week, or a test that they’re preparing for, at least you can remind them and encourage them to prepare. So for parents, it brings them right into the equation. AW: So you mentioned that education platforms like Edsby are shifting the focus from being teacher-centric, to student-centric. And that’s a little bit of what you’re describing. Can you elaborate on that a little? CB: Yeah. So it’s really about allowing students to take ownership of their learning. So that the teacher is more framing the learning, supporting the learner and coaching them through their learning experience. So delivery can certainly be student-led and teacher framed. AW: right.  CB: When students are empowered around their learning, they’re obviously more engaged, because they own their own learning. And when they’re more engaged, the learning is just so much richer. So if a student can come in, and they can see what they’re responsible for learning, they can go through their course content, they can provide that information to their teacher, their teacher can give them immediate feedback on that… It just changes the learning process. They’re not sitting back sitting in their seat, listening to a teacher with their 25 other peers, looking up at a blackboard and trting to take that in. It’s really the opposite of that.  AW: So as you’re describing that, you’re reminding me of a thought that I had, as I was preparing for this interview, I’d never explicitly thought about this before. But online platforms like Edsby are teaching our children how to learn, right? They’re not being passive, they’re learning to be proactive to accessing the various resources that are available to them, obviously, on the Edsby platform itself, and then beyond. And that really excites me, because I’m hoping that that’s going to enable my children and all children around the world to become more proactive learners, lifelong learners with a growth mindset. Do you guys have any learnings or insight about that? CB: Of course,  we’re all lifelong learners. We go through a stage in our life when we’re young, where we go to formal institutions to actually develop the skills and competencies to be successful adults. Prior to the internet, let’s say where information was not as available as it is today, we had to provide that content and information as teachers to our students. As the world has evolved, there is so much information out there that students can access anytime, anywhere. So it’s not about learning the facts. It’s about dealing with it. So that’s where these competencies are so important. You need to teach our kids to be critical thinkers, we need to learn how to learn. I mean, that is most important. And I think that’s always been the purpose of our educational system. But with technology giving us access to subject matter experts, to all the information out there. It’s so very, very important. So you nailed it. It’s all about learning to learn. AW: Yeah, I mean, it’s multimedia. And then even within each media type, it’s overwhelming the amount of resources that we have access to.  CB: Yeah.  AW: Is there anything else you want to add? CB: I’d say just to other stakeholders, I think, these types of technologies are very important.  For teachers, teachers spend only 49% of their professional time interacting with their students. And that’s because of the administrative and prep time those burdens that sits upon them. One of the other areas that we look at, and it’s built into Edsby, is to take that burden off. Lessen it.  The less time they can spend preparing and administrating, it’s just better for our kids, AW: I can see that. CB: And then for administrators, we live in a data world now. And on top of all the efficiency that is gained on the system management, there’s a wealth of analytics that we provide that can help identify students at risk. You know, diagnosising students with learning issues, we usually are diagnosing them a little too late. So these are lagging indicators. But now with the data that we’re able to access, with these data sets, we can actually start to look at some patterns. And we can identify kids at risk. So more lead indicators, so that if they’re going to have some reading issues, we can pick that up when they’re 5,6,7 years old, rather than when they’re eight, nine years old, when it’s a lot more difficult to intervene on that. So I think the data analytics is also really, really important for our learners. AW: That’s absolutely true. And I can tell you as a parent that I have immediate access right to what happened in my kids class today.  CB: Yeah, so there’s no more report card lag and surprise report cards so there’s a report card every day. That’s the that’s the nice thing is you can go every day and see how they’re doing. Exactly.  AW: Thank you so much.  CB: You’re welcome.  Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING!     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #63 COMMUNICATION FOR EDUCATORS & THE FUTURE OF LEARNING with Chris Besse of Edsby appeared first on Talk About Talk.