Talk About Talk - Executive & Leadership Communication Skills

Step by step instructions on how to optimize your LinkedIn profile. Volterra founder Andrew Jenkins shares how to use LinkedIn for creating your personal brand,  networking, thought leadership, marketing, and job-searching.   REFERENCES Andrew Jenkins & Volterra LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewjjenkins Volterra – https://www.linkedin.com/company/volterradigital/ Talk About Talk podcast episode with Andrew Jenkins #7: SOCIAL MEDIA – https://talkabouttalk.com/7-social-media-with-volterra-founder-andrew-jenkins/ Recommended podcast: Pivot – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pivot/id1073226719 Qwant search engine – https://www.qwant.com/ How to take a headshot selfie – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrD_iFl7QcA  Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Andrea on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Talk About Talk on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/18798163/ Talk About Talk podcast episode – NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin- Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   TRANSCRIPT – How to Optimize Your LinkedIn Profile Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Andrew, for joining us here to talk about LinkedIn. ANDREW JENKINS: You’re very welcome. I’m glad to be here. AW: I’m going to start by asking you about the objective or the purpose. So why would we want a LinkedIn account? ANDREW JENKINS: In this day and age where connections are all the more important – virtual or otherwise, and in this new world of work, and having to rely on digital networking to replace offline networking, I think people need to be more conscious of the power of network transparency. And this, if you want to call it the social graph, if I’m on LinkedIn, I now know who you know, your network is transparent to me. And so I can say to you, according to LinkedIn, you know, so and so would you be comfortable in introducing me? Or is it okay, if I reached out to them and say that you actually recommended me? There’s no more effort on your part. That network transparency is something that is often overlooked or never thought of or considered. And that’s just one aspect of the overlooked value of LinkedIn. AW: So would you say that LinkedIn has become a more necessary and more important tool? ANDREW JENKINS: Oh, very much so. And we’ve seen just with clients that we work with, and so on a rise in activity on LinkedIn, and 85% of jobs are filled through networks, not through job postings. So if you’re not networking, I’m sorry, it’s going to be particularly challenging. And you know, I’ve been mentoring some people. And as part of that mentorship, I tell them connect with me on LinkedIn, and look in my network. And I reached out to six different people on my network that they had identified as people they would like to talk to. Six out of six, I said, I have this person that I’m assisting and mentoring. They have identified you as someone they’d like to speak with, from a networking information gathering, (but not asking for a job just wanting to talk). And all six said, Yes, yeah. And they’ve all had virtual or just either zoom or phone conversations with them. And I mean, not everyone is that receptive. But this is the new reality. And so we have to up our digital networking skills, and perhaps get a little bit out of our comfort zones of cold calling people in a digital way. AW: But what you described there, I think it’s not really what I would call cold calling, right? It was more warm calling it’s through another person. And that’s probably why they were receptive. So what I heard in your answer about the purpose of object or objective of LinkedIn, then is that it serves to help us in job searches, of course, you mentioned, but really, it’s the network. It’s the connecting. ANDREW JENKINS: Well, it’s an often-used phrase that your network is your net worth. AW: I like that. ANDREW JENKINS: But for me, personally, I owe my career to LinkedIn. So from my perspective, I describe it as not, even for sales teams that I’ve trained, and other speaking engagements where I’ve talked about LinkedIn, I’ve said, LinkedIn is not necessary for a job search, or it’s a place to make valuable connections. And the sooner you equate making a connection on LinkedIn, to something where someday there will be an exchange of value. And don’t always think that it’s got to be something what’s in it for me, actually, there’s more value to come from you actually paying it forward and being of assistance to others. And Malcolm Gladwell talked about it in the Tipping Point about the strength of weak ties, right. And I found oftentimes, when I’ve reached out to someone I barely know on LinkedIn, asking for their assistance, that they’ve been more receptive to help me or to help me, help me help someone else than someone I know very, very closely or deeply. AW: Interesting. This relates nicely to some comments that we heard from Sharon Mah-Gin. She’s an executive recruiter that I interviewed about the power of networking, and she talks a lot about reciprocality and offering value to others. So … interesting. Should everyone have a LinkedIn account? ANDREW JENKINS: I think it’s fair to say that not everyone needs it. It depends on what your objectives are, or what it is that you do. You know, I know, when my son was in high school and doing a co-op, they were required to set up a LinkedIn account. Now, like, there’s a joke that goes around says like, if you’re not on LinkedIn, you don’t exist. But there’s 700 million accounts on LinkedIn, but only about 3 million share content on a monthly basis. So there’s a huge delta between the number of people who have an account and the number of people who are active. And a lot of people will dismiss it as a place just to go to get a job. And a lot of other people don’t like being active on it, because they get inundated with people wanting to work for their firm or, or being sold. AW: Yeah, that happens to me a lot. ANDREW JENKINS: Me too. And I think we touch on that later. But this idea, though, that it is a social network, but it’s a professional social network. And so the analogy I use is, you’re at the soccer game on the weekend with your kids and you’re on the sidelines with another parent. You don’t always talk about soccer, right? You’ll start talking about what you do during the week or other things and suddenly Oh, they say something. Oh, I know something about that. And suddenly you’re networking on the side of the soccer field. So can you transfer that kind of serendipity into a virtual world through LinkedIn? AW: Yeah, absolutely. So you talked about your son being instructed to create a LinkedIn account, I’m wondering if we can talk a little bit about optimizing our profile. So whether you are creating one from scratch, or you already have one, and you’re looking to improve it, what are some easy things that people can do to optimize their profile?  Maybe we can work our way down? ANDREW JENKINS: Okay, starting at the top, often people will just default to their title. Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t have your title you can. But don’t stop there. They’ve made some refinements you now have up to 200 characters for your headline. So put your value proposition. What is it you have to offer? What is it – What’s your strengths, your expertise, you can, like I said, it can still include a job title if you want, if you want to put some certifications like MBA, DBA, CFP, whatever, that’s fine, because a lot of people are looking for, you know, well known credentials or designations. AW: Can you give us an example? say, say I’m a vice president of marketing? ANDREW JENKINS: That’s a very generic title, right? What kind of marketing do you do? areas of expertise? Again, what kind of value are you delivering to that organization? And can you put it succinctly in 200 characters, what would make me read further down your profile? Now, the other thing to think about one of the reasons you want to have like provocative or eye catching headline is when you are commenting on someone else’s post, and someone looks at the thread of commenters. And you’re all directors of marketing, you don’t stand out, there’s no differentiation. But if you’ve got this provocative statement about you, something as subtle as that. To be more conscious of like, it’s your personal brand walking around inside LinkedIn. So consider what you’re doing – leaving these digital breadcrumbs that are related to your personal brand, AW: it’s probably the most important thing because as you said, it’s showing up… ANDREW JENKINS: well, and it’s the first thing people see when they hit your profile. So there’s the three things that are in combination, when people first hit your profile, it’s the banner image, your headshot and the headline. And so you want to have them working in unison. So when you look at my LinkedIn profile, yeah, my banner image is a collage of images of me speaking, right? I don’t need to tell you that I’m a speaker. It’s there. I am onstage so you know I speak. Then there’s my headshot, which is a professional headshot. So whenever you’re at a conference and someone sponsored a photographer, take the 10 minutes, take the opportunity, but LinkedIn even has a video. It’s #workselfie, the shows you have to take a picture of yourself with a neutral background with your smartphone. And that’s a lot better than a Gray Ghost. And avoid your vacation pics, no pictures with remnants of other people, the number of people that I’ve seen use scuba diving,… AW: what about the background, the banner ad, because I’ve seen people, they’re putting things like scuba diving or whatever, where it’s kind of showing that they have another side to them, or… ANDREW JENKINS: well you raise an interesting point. So I’ve worked one on one with some executives on their LinkedIn profile. Recently, I was working with a partner in an accounting firm. And I said, when you think about the banner image, we can use it to humanize you to show other aspects of you, what is it you would want to convey with an image, and he said diversity. He said, I like to work with diverse teams. I really evangelize diversity in all its shapes and forms. And so we found an image that was representative of that theme. For another executive who works in the energy space, he wanted to talk about the innovation in the energy space. So we found still a stock photo, but something that conveyed that rather than just the default blue background, so again, it’s free, throw something up there that this is all about personal branding and think about all the icebreakers that you’re asked to share. When you go to a networking event like LinkedIn. I’ve been to some of their events and they’ll say tell the room one thing about you that’s not on your LinkedIn profile is an icebreaker. AW: So now we’ve got our background, we’ve got our headshot, we’ve got our headline, can you go through all of the elements kind of from top to bottom, just briefly talking about the do’s and the don’ts, maybe what the common mistakes are. And also I should add, I know that we can play with the order, we can move things up or down depending on the relevance and what we want. ANDREW JENKINS: So the next section after your headline is the about or the summary section. And again, like you said, you can move them around, but typically people are just going through the default settings. Now the about section only displays about three lines of text. So this is where I tell people give thought to what those first three sentences say, Ah, it’s the opening of your story below the that third line are two words see more, right? And what would give me cause to click see more? And the other thing is, your LinkedIn profile is not your resume. This is kind of I call it the story of you and the about section is a summary that stitches together all the chapters of your career that are listed below. AW: Okay, so I have a question about the about the about section, I’ve noticed some profiles that are that are very impressive that do exactly what you said they kind of draw you in. So you click on see more. Should it be written in first person? So I help companies blah, blah, blah, or should it be in third person? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki…Right? ANDREW JENKINS: It should be written in first person, imagine if your summary went to a networking event on your behalf. Okay? It wouldn’t be talking about you in a third person. This is not Seinfeld, this is you talking about yourself, write it as if you’re trying to build rapport and trust. Okay, you’ve got 2000 characters, so take advantage of it. The other thing is, I don’t want to say keyword stuff. AW: I was just thinking that! ANDREW JENKINS:  Some of the things that are written there are going to aid you being discovered. And so you can list your areas of expertise, AW: I’ve seen that in the last six months, I’ve noticed a lot of people changing their about section to introduce themselves. And then at the end, it lists their areas of expertise. In fact, I did that as well. Like I have courses and coaching in the following areas. ANDREW JENKINS: I did a bit of a hack. And this doesn’t stop anyone else from doing the same thing. AW: we’re all gonna do the same thing! ANDREW JENKINS: So I have my own company. So I can list as many roles at my company related to me as I as I wish. So I have myself as the principal running the company. And then I’ve added a second role, speaker. And the reason I did that is because with that secondary role, it gives me more screen real estate to describe what I do as a speaker and panelist and I list all the conferences that have spoken out or been a panelist and so every new conference that I’ve spoken at virtual or otherwise, etc., I add that. And then if there’s any media of me standing on stage, or a video clip, or whatever, I add that media to that section, that’s amazing. AW: So you’re updating it, you’re adding to your credibility. ANDREW JENKINS: I should jump back just briefly to the about section. We’ve talked a lot about what you write there that you can have media there, you can have you on YouTube, you can put a thumbnail, but the link is to a podcast, the way I describe it is that your LinkedIn profile could be the most media rich business card you could dream of having. AW: I love that! Roll more media into it. This is all stuff you can’t do with a resume. So is the media in the about section in addition to the featured section, which is usually below that…? ANDREW JENKINS: that’s where they’re bringing some of that to the forefront is into that featured section. AW: So you could do both right, you could put something in the about section and also in the featured section. ANDREW JENKINS: Okay. But for instance, if I write an article on LinkedIn, publish an article that gets featured in the featured section, okay, but it’s also listed in my activity, but not necessarily listed as media in my about section. The same principles apply for all the roles. It’s a chapter in your career, I would give emphasis to any of the roles that are for the last five years, and I saw a comment recently from someone else, a millennial who does a lot of work on LinkedIn, she made a comment about people saying “open for new opportunities” is their headline. And there’s a new setting on LinkedIn that says, you can say I’m available for new opportunities. The recommendation was not to blatantly put that as your headline, because I don’t want to say there’s an element of desperation. AW: But I think there is! ANDREW JENKINS: But again, it’s about being proud of who you are and what you’ve accomplished. And if people want to recruit you, they will because you can change that setting for recruiters. So it’s behind the scenes that you’re doing that anyway, put the emphasis on who you are, what you’ve accomplished, and that personal brand kind of thing. AW: I actually I have to say I agree, and I loved your previous point about the headline, it should announce what you’re proud of and why people should trust you and why they would want to talk to you, right? And they don’t they don’t want to talk to you because you’re looking for a job, right? They want to talk to you because of your experience and your expertise. So what about – so there’s like section one that lists your job experience, right? ANDREW JENKINS: So then you’re going to get into education, and volunteer and recommendations and endorsements. So again, those are other chapters, it’s not the appendix of your career like that people will make a connection with someone who’s an alumni of the same program. So don’t overlook your education, even if it was a while ago. And as well, if you’ve done any recent certifications, or professional development, AW: and sometimes some organizations, they cut their applicants, for example, they’ll say we’re not going to look at anyone that doesn’t have an MBA just because it’s probably an easy sort of objective, quantifiable measure that they can. ANDREW JENKINS: It’s a filter. Yeah. And then volunteering, you may make a connection. Like you and I met on a board. People outside of their work ,if they’re on the board of a non-profit, it may lead to a connection. And so don’t overlook that section. And the last two main sections: recommendations. When was the last recommendation that you got? Sometimes they can be gamed. I’ll write you a recommendation if you write me one or I’d love a recommendation, I know you’re busy. I took the liberty of writing it for you. So that’s my take on recommendations. AW: I’m sure many, many of them are legitimate, but also many of them are not. ANDREW JENKINS: right. So you have to be careful. You want them valid. And the other one that receives scrutiny is endorsements. Right? I just have to click a button to endorse you. The one thing I highlight about that is that the more you are endorsed for specific skills, the higher you rank and search for those skills. AW: Yeah. So if you are job searching, that may be critical, right? ANDREW JENKINS: Yeah. And the top three are the ones that get displayed. AW: Okay, it’s three that get displayed. I haven’t even looked at what mine are. ANDREW JENKINS: So then, that’s the thing is like, I tell people, go look at the three that are displayed. Are they the ones you want to be known for? Just like keywords in your summary section, you’re trying to help your discoverability. AW: Right. And then I guess the last thing is interests, right. You can follow organizations or people and then they show up as interest. Does that matter? ANDREW JENKINS: Well, sometimes you forget what you clicked on, right? Oh, yeah. I don’t want that there. So they were showing us some of their political affiliations. Yeah, that’s not good. There’s so far down your profile, like they’re not a priority. But I just flag it as just be mindful of what’s displayed there. That’s all. We’ve been hired to do social audits on executives that were being considered for senior roles. And in one instance, they were going to be a CFO, and we found nothing. And so we delivered the audit and they go, Well, there’s nothing here. I said, Well, that’s what you want. There’s nothing – there’s no red flags. They were clean. Think about every digital breadcrumb you leave. AW: Yeah. So the social audit is an interesting, interesting topic in and of itself, right. So I know a lot of senior executives who have no digital footprint, really, they may have, like you said, a placeholder on LinkedIn or a placeholder on Facebook. But that’s really it. Is that, is that a good thing? Is that better than nothing? Or? ANDREW JENKINS: Well, there’s two different audits. There’s the auditing of their own digital presence and digital breadcrumbs. And then there’s have they been talked about? Just because you don’t have a LinkedIn account, doesn’t mean you’re not being talked about online. Now, for many people. If it’s a small business fine, like you can fly below the radar for a very, very long time. AW: Okay, so I think that’s a great insight, right? You have a digital footprint, which may include your social media profiles, but it may include articles written by your firm or by journalists or whatever. So Google yourself, as you said,… ANDREW JENKINS: perhaps get someone else to Google you, because Google is so tied to our own search habits. Yeah, have someone else Google use because the search is not going to be tainted, like it would be for you, AW: or just don’t use Google? ANDREW JENKINS: Those or you have not watched the movie on Netflix, The Social Dilemma? AW: Yeah. ANDREW JENKINS: Someone who worked for Google, actually, at the end says, I use QWANT “ q, q, a, n, t”  to do search, right? Because it doesn’t track your history or keep it AW: fascinating. ANDREW JENKINS: you may not have a digital footprint whatsoever. And you might be quite content with that. That’s okay. But if it’s at all concerning how somebody search your name, and see what they come up with, AW: yeah, that’s fantastic advice. I guess the way to think about it is that social media is an opportunity to craft your personal brand online. Let’s shift gears then to etiquette and posting. Can you take us through some do’s and don’ts maybe what topics are off limits, particularly on LinkedIn? ANDREW JENKINS: Sure, I’ll touch on posting for a moment. People say, Well, I don’t have time, if you’re five minutes early for a meeting, fire up LinkedIn and just comment on a post or share a post. Instead of surfing Facebook, surf LinkedIn. See if someone’s with an article of interest, whatever, like just swap it out, and find these moments to engage. Use a Google Alert to find content around certain topics that you might want to build thought leadership about, and put the emphasis more on commenting on other people’s articles for visibility, you know, comment on someone else who has higher visibility, comment on something they’ve shared, and see who likes the comment that you made? And if whatever comment you made garners a reaction, that could inspire you to write a blog post. You can then go back to those seven people that liked it and say, oh, by the way, here’s a blog post or a podcast or another article. And suddenly, I’m building a relationship with these people. I haven’t sold them anything. I’m not trying to sell them anything. We’ve just made a connection over mutual interests. AW: Brilliant. ANDREW JENKINS: Yes, that’s a bit of effort. But as people become increasingly reliant on LinkedIn to make connections, be genuine, be human. Don’t use the default message from LinkedIn saying, I’d like to add you to my personal network on LinkedIn. I heard a great example from a friend of mine, someone in his network posted on Friday night at five o’clock, saying we’re all working from home now. My wife likes to put on Led Zeppelin when it’s five o’clock on Friday to celebrate the end of the week and the weekend is here. What have any music you played to signify the end of the week? AW: I love it. ANDREW JENKINS: It started this whole thread of comments. And this was on LinkedIn. Yeah, he was being human. There. It was tied to work. And on Monday morning: just isn’t it great that we can talk about Led Zeppelin on LinkedIn? Let’s stay connected. Yeah. And that was so genuine. So human. So real versus anything that felt scripted, right? That’s the sad state I’m seeing on LinkedIn. And if I had to summarize etiquette, just be yourself. It’ll go a long way. AW: Well put, well put. Let’s move on then to the five rapid fire questions. Yeah. Are you ready? ANDREW JENKINS: I’m ready. AW: Question number one. What are your pet peeves? ANDREW JENKINS: The person who ended up being my boss at Bell during an interview said you’re very even. You’re low key. What pisses you off? Oh, but like, I know that I can be somewhat hard to read. And so he said, like what pisses you off? I said, being made to look unprofessional. AW: Okay, well, I’m going to make you look great with this podcast, Andrew. Question number two, what type of learner are you? ANDREW JENKINS: I’m the stereotypical guy who doesn’t read the instructions, but I will watch a YouTube video and that taking me through how to do something, thank God for YouTube because it’s become this. It’s the number two search engine. Just type in the words how to into the search field. But I have found YouTube invaluable to watch a minute clip. I literally just how do I do x? And there’s a YouTube video that shows me how to do it. AW: So yeah, the poor repair man, he’s done. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? ANDREW JENKINS: Introvert, I think back to when I did my MBA, and the thought of standing up in front of my class would make me sick to my stomach. And now I can stand up in front of 400 and speak quite comfortably. AW: Yeah, I’ve seen you speak. Yeah. Question number four communication preference for personal conversation? ANDREW JENKINS: I can say that I don’t like talking on the phone. I find lengthy conversation on the phone – I don’t enjoy that. I rather prefer in person, or the virtual digital equivalent. Or I like Slack or texting just because it’s like the one thing I need to ask you. So I don’t have to have a five minute conversation to get to the point. AW: Right. Ok, got it. Last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most these days? ANDREW JENKINS: Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. They have a mixture, but they’re talking about a variety of things that are happening in the media space. So that’s my recommendation. AW: Okay. I’m gonna put a link to that in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to add about LinkedIn? ANDREW JENKINS: connect with me on LinkedIn! AW: Okay! I will make sure I put your coordinates in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, Andrew. ANDREW JENKINS: You’re very welcome. Thanks so much. Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING!     LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #62 HOW TO OPTIMIZE YOUR LINKEDIN PROFILE with Andrew Jenkins appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Crutch words, interrupting, filler comments, and more. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares 10 unique communication insights after hosting 60 Talk About Talk podcast episodes.    REFERENCES Resources & Recommendations “The Portfolio Career Podcast” with David Nebinski https://www.portfoliocareerpodcast.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidnebinski/ “Yogi MD” podcast” with Dr. Nadine Kelly https://yogimd.net/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadine-kelly-m-d-5a451946/ “Google Ads na Veia” podcast with André Carneiro https://www.googleadsnaveia.com.br/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/amarred/ Podcasting Workshop with Seth Godin and Alex DiPalma – https://podcastclub.link/ Talk About Talk Episodes Referenced #2 – USING YOUR VOICE with baritone opera singer Bradley Christensen #11 – STORYTELLING with Professor Jerry Zaltman #17 – POSSESSIONS with Professor Russell Belk #19 – SUPPORTING OUR GRIEVING FRIENDS with Andrea Warnick #23 – PROFANITY – TALKING TABOO with Professor Darin Flynn #20 – HOW TO TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR with Dr. Joshua Tepper #25 – BUILDING RESILIENCE & SELF TALK with Tosca Reno #28 – COMMUNICATING CHANGE with Professor Ellen Auster #36 – YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH with Nicole German #47 – COMPELLING PRESENTATIONS with Andrew Musselman Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   Thanks for listening.  And TALK SOON!   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #61 WHAT I LEARNED FROM PODCASTING: from crutch words to how to interrupt appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Storytelling is a superpower.  Influencer and speaker Bobby Umar shares how storytelling can elevate your personal brand and your identity as a thought leader. For marketers, storytelling is a powerful tool to facilitate consumers’ resonance with brands.   REFERENCES Bobby Umar Twitter:https://twitter.com/raehanbobby Facebook Business:https://www.facebook.com/raehanbobby/ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbyumar/ LinkedIn Company: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bobbyumar/ Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/raehanbobby/ YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/c/BobbyUmar Speaker Profile:https://www.nsb.com/speakers/bobby-umar/ Recommendations: Gary Vaynerchuk Pod Save America   Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Relevant podcast episodes: STORYTELLING with Jerry Zaltman ARCHETYPES with Andrea Wojnicki NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin – REIMAGINING YOUR PERSONAL BRAND with Michael Boydell Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much, Bobby, for joining us to talk about storytelling. Bobby Umar: I’m happy to be here Andrea. Thank you so much. AW: My first question is really general, what makes for a great story? Bobby Umar: Well, I think probably one of the best things you can do as a storyteller is to create an image in people’s mind to get them to feel and experience what is the you’re expressing, whether you express it in words, like on a page where they express it on words on a stage or on a video… But if you can get them as you envision it, and join you in that emotional journey, that to me is probably the most powerful way to know that your story is working. Because what you’re doing is you’re creating credibility and resonance, and you involve them. So I think that’s probably the best way to describe a really powerful story. AW: So how do you involve them in a story though? I mean, it’s one thing to say it but is there a how to? Bobby Umar: Well, there’s lots of things you can do. I mean, for example, you can take people on the hero’s journey, your journey of revolution, transformation and bringing them back that whole kind of cycle or that story arc . That works really well.  There is immersing the people in what’s going on in terms of drama and intrigue and suspense. There’s using certain words that heighten the tension of the story. There’s asking a question that probes you know, their insight and interest and piques their mind so they want to be part of what’s going on, or you just describe something that’s really kind of like jaw dropping. Like, you know, I was flying over the hills, and we were all about to die. Whoa, okay, now what? And things like that. So there are different ways to get them to be involved. So there’s the immersing the audience and their experience. There’s the drama, the intrigue, word choice, there’s vulnerability. There’s lots of things you can do to immerse your audience into your story. AW: You talked about the hero’s journey. And as I was preparing for this interview, I was thinking, is it possible that storytelling as a topic itself, might be possibly wearing itself out? It’s a really, really popular topic. I know that it’s one of the most searched terms that I have on my website. You know, everywhere we look, there’s master classes on storytelling by famous authors, fiction and nonfiction right? And when I was doing some research for archetypes, I came across the hero’s journey over and over again. And they talked about how it’s become almost formulaic with Disney. And do you have any comments on that? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I would say that to the first point, are stories getting old or tired? No, I don’t think so. I think that we’re evolving how we tell stories all the time. I mean, now you look at that 3D visualization, and V.R. There are so many different ways to tell stories. I think that that changes all the time. Some of the best movie-makers like you know, Steven Spielberg, for example, the first movie he did was different than what he’s doing now. I mean, you look at Jaws was like something, like Ready Player One is completely different. I think the issue really is when people focus on more of a formulaic approach as opposed to creating focus on the originality and on the content, on the characters. And when you end up with themes that only focus on those things. Yeah, then you’re gonna get a better job than just get a formulaic boy meets girl boy, girl dumps boy, boy gets girl again, that type of thing. So you know, formulaic? I like to call it a framework. Formulas are boring. But a framework is a structure that helps you create a compelling story as long as you can focus on the elements and do them in a very, very impactful way. And then the other thing I’ll say is that now people want to learn how to tell better stories with virtual meetings, because they’re working with remote teams, and they want to build tell better stories online because they’re trying to find a way to break through the clutter, break through the virtual stuff, break through the diminishing trust that we have, that’s out there. And so storytelling is a great way to do that. So I’m seeing that stories are constantly evolving across all different mediums in all different industries. And that’s why I think it never gets old. Like it’s the same thing, why there’s always gonna be someone to help you with networking. So there’ll be someone to help you with finding a date or, some of these things that people really care about storytelling, love, really connecting with people. These are things that are going to last forever, right? The thing about storytelling is it’s a framework and a foundation for connecting and relationship building and pitching in presentations. And all this kind of stuff. If you want to connect to people on the human level, no matter what the objective is – personal and professional, storytellers, right? So if I’m on a date, and I tell a story, like let’s say, when I met my wife, I told a story about how I ran a musical theater company. And he said, Oh, musical theater. I love musical theater. Okay. And next thing you know, there’s interest. Right? So storytelling is powerful in all different ways. AW: So you started to answer my next question then. And the truth remains that it’s not authors. It’s not writers that are inquiring about how to be better storytellers. Right? It’s managers, it’s leaders. It’s its students. It’s people that are going on dates. It’s, it’s all everybody wants to become a better storyteller. Why is it that stories are so engaging versus you know, I don’t know, a PowerPoint presentation with facts and figures and charts, which should appeal to us from a rational perspective, right? Bobby Umar: Well, a couple of things. Storytelling makes things more memorable, more impactful and longer lasting. At the same time, I think that stories are just a way to humanize people stories. They say more than what you’re actually saying versus just a number on the page. And so I think that’s another way the reason why stories are far more compelling to people. And that’s why people are using them all the time. AW: Yeah, I’ve heard over and over again that people remember emotions more than they remember facts. Bobby Umar: Absolutely. AW: Stories impart emotions, right? Bobby Umar: Yeah.  Stories make people feel a certain way. So they feel what you’re feeling, they feel the message more, and then they feel compelled to change. So you know, stories are a way to compel people to change their beliefs to change their actions, and to change their attitudes. And that’s why storytelling is very powerful. AW: And maybe change your opinion about someone right? Like you said, your wife was suddenly intrigued. Bobby Umar: Yeah, well, I mean, you take let’s say you have a stiff supervisor you know, that you don’t like but then three people know him or her tell the story about them being vulnerable or being silly or fun. All the sudden, it’s may start to shift the attitude around that person because you start to see it. That’s why vulnerability is so important when I work with clients So, being vulnerable is so helpful. So if we want to do that, it actually humanizes you and makes you more relatable. And I think, vulnerability, the data from Brené Browns research shows that vulnerability is a powerful connector to people. And so when you’re vulnerable people are more willing to be vulnerable with you. And so when you do that, for anybody, no matter how stiff they might seem, they started to become more human. AW: I agree, as you were saying that I was imagining we’re connecting with each other on so many dimensions, right? Like we kind of have an affect, we like each other, or we don’t like each other. It’s either positive or negative. But then there’s if the person has allowed themselves to be vulnerable, we feel like they’ve opened the door, it may be into their soul or into their true being, which relates to personal branding, which I know is one of your other areas of expertise. Can you talk a little bit about the connection between storytelling and personal branding? Bobby Umar: Well, simply put, your story is your brand, your brand is your story. So the way my personal brand has become the way Bobby is now, is from the very day I was born. So if you look back – Back in the day, he was a young child when I was six or 10 or 12 years old, I was a connector, I was a social butterfly, I would like to make people laugh. I like to make people smile. That thing has been part of my personal brand journey since I’ve been a little kid. And so that’s part of who I am. It’s a big part of why… Other people may have started with their analytical science experiments. And they did a lot of data analytics. And now they’re, you know, a scientist or something. It starts with that. The other thing that I’ve learned too, and more recently, is that you know, when it comes to telling stories, the people who struggle it’s because they don’t really know their personal brand. They don’t, they do the work, or know that the person brand is broken out several areas. One is self-awareness and self-analysis of who you are and what you’re about and what your strengths are. The second piece is knowing how people perceive you and how they relate to you connect to you. And when you know those things, then you can design a brand that’s targeted for that audience to know how they feel and create a story that’s far more aligned with your brand and it’s far more compelling. So when I tell stories, I think about the person that is part of my target audience and I create a far more compelling story. And so having a framework for a brand, and what that personal brand is, and having a framework for your story, both of them together is what you could use to craft the right story for that right person. AW: Okay, I have so many questions to ask based on that…So your personal brand is certainly not a blank slate. Right? You have your history. Bobby Umar: It already exists. That’s correct. AW: So two questions from that. One is, imagine your slate is as blank as it could be. So maybe you are a 23 year old recent graduate who’s starting a new job. You’re self-aware enough to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, and you know what your employer is looking for. What are some things that you can do strategically to manage your personal brand? Bobby Umar: Well, the first step to managing a person brand is to understand what it is. So doing the work. And here’s the thing, most people don’t want to do the work. Oftentimes because they’re afraid of it. But you know, it requires you to get feedback from your peer group and from people around you. Just basically ask them, tell me what you think of me. Tell me how I make you feel. Tell me what kind of experience I give you, because that’s what it is your brand is your reputation, how you’re perceived, the emotional experience that people feel from you. So do you want? Do you want to know that you’re kind of a jerk? Do you want to know that you’re always late? Do you want to know that? You know, you’re not reliable? I mean, you have to do the work to find that out because you got to be willing to take the strengths and the weaknesses. So that deep dive analysis is what you do. A lot of people don’t want to do that. But that’s the first step is actually dive into that support. AW: I understand why people might not want to do that, right. Because you as you said, you’re potentially learning something very negative about yourself. But imagine that you are compelled to truly understand or become more self-aware so that they can manage their personal brand optimally. What are the questions that you would ask people to get to that, you know, what is the maybe uniquely negative thing about me? Or what is the thing that that bugs people about me when we ask them to get to that? Bobby Umar: Well, that’s a good question. So normally when I do personal branding, I take people through kind of a signature methodology that I’ve created, where we go through personality traits, skills, interests, values, and things like that. So you can ask people about those things. What do you think are my top skills, my top values, things like that. But you can also ask things like, you know, what are my top three strengths? What are my top two weakness areas? Do I remind you of a character in a book or in a movie? And if so, why? And those types of questions are ones you can you can actually really extract a lot of information about how people perceive you, and what are some of the themes that come out. So when you do a lot of this work and do a really good deep dive across the board… Because there’s three ways to do the deep dive: one is do your own self-assessment, the other is to get the assessment of others, and the third is do online assessments. And when you do that broad range of assessments, you get like this voluminous amount of, you know, 10 pages of information. What are the threads and themes that stick out? What are the ones that are consistently shown across the board? When I did my own personal journey., the thing that came up, that screamed at me was: Bobby loves people, right? And so it told me that when I worked as an engineer in front of a computer for 10 hours a day and never talk to anybody, that’s why I was miserable. So I was no matter what I do moving forward, and better darn well have to do with people. And it’s very empowering, very validating. So you know, that that that to me was really powerful, too. AW: Yeah. And then I guess it allows you to focus in that area, so that you’re telling the story, right? in the way that is not only compelling to you, but compelling to everybody else. And it just makes sense. ‘Cause you’re going to be providing evidence of it all the time! Bobby Umar: Yeah, although the second, the second piece is, you know, once you’ve discovered your brand, and you focus on design, so this is where you look at your target audience what your objective is. So when it comes to a story, who was my target audience? What’s my objective? What do I want them to do? What I want them to feel? Where do I want them to believe? Then I tell those stories. So for example, you know, my main story, my website is about how I felt lost in my career, and how I want to help people not feel lost anymore and feel more fulfilled. That’s my journey of having four different careers. And so I tell that story because I want people to know I’ve been there, but I always want to help them get to where I am now. And so you can create a store that’s perfectly aligned for your target audience as long as you do the work. AW: Sounds like what – as you said – back to Steven Spielberg, it sounds like going back to what a movie director would do, right? You’re not you’re not creating a movie in a vacuum; you’re also thinking about what the audience is looking for. So that makes sense. The second question that I was gonna ask you related to your personal history is, is there a difference – And maybe it’s just semantics, that’s perfectly okay. But what’s the difference between your personal brand and your reputation? Bobby Umar: They’re very similar. I mean, your reputation is basically how people perceive you. Personal branding, it takes that to a higher level like it’s more about the emotional experience. It’s, it’s cumulative, it continues. It evolves, it goes on and on. Your reputation is more like a snapshot. Okay, well, right now in this moment in time, what’s my reputation? Okay, it’s this personal brand is far more complex because you can also manage your, your personal brand and you manage the reputation too, but your reputation is based on actions. So there are a lot of similarities but ultimately the personal brand is far more complex because based on your values, your beliefs, your actions, your history, the people around you, and how they perceive you. Reputation is more like taking a sample and then you know, 80% of people think you’re a jerk. Okay? 80% think you’re amazing. Okay, that’s, that’s reputation. Well, your brand’s more complex and more nuanced. AW: so one name keeps coming, popping into my mind as you’re describing all of this, and that’s Hillary Clinton. Bobby Umar: Okay, well, okay. AW: Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve done any thinking about that. But I’ve done some thinking and reading about her and her personal brand. And I’ve actually heard her say that she really struggled to come up with a story. She has a reputation and she knows that she’s smart, and she’s done the work. But her story like she lived a life of privilege, right. She didn’t live the hero’s journey. And it wouldn’t be authentic to pretend that she had any sort of hero’s journey because there really wasn’t any strife that she had to work through. Have you thought about that at all? Bobby Umar: Yeah. I mean, I think the challenge with People who particularly are older and have a very rich and complicated history is that they don’t know what story to focus on. Right. So I think that’s a challenge. I mean, if you watch the documentary about her life, you know, one of the things that, you know, maybe her story has been like, I really care about being an ally. Right? All my life, I’ve been an ally, and you show example, after example, after example. And maybe that could have been the story. Even when she was in college and university, she didn’t follow the norm. And she spoke up against things that most people wouldn’t. That could have been a brand that could have been the main story, but you know, I’ve always spoken up and rubbed people the wrong way. And that also strikes at the misogyny that happens in our system. Right. So I think there’s a lot there that could have been shared. But I think the other problem, of course, is that most people (and it’s happening now to like in, you know, whether with Joe Biden or other politicians) is that, you know, when you’re, when you’re 60 years old, you have an entire life and some people that people do people to find you when you’re 30 of the things you did when you were 30? or when you’re when you’re 40 I opened up because I said that I’ve done things in my 20s. And you know, if I go into politics and that came up, I’ll say, well, that that’s like, you know, one small dumb thing I did. But you know, the nuance of my entire story is that Bobby’s been a connector. He’s always been a connector. He always is friendly to people. He always listens. He has empathy. And that is, absolutely that’s been there since I was six. And you can’t doubt that. So then, you know, and all those small things, they start to fall by the wayside because they’re not as important. AW: Brilliantly put Bobby, I have to say, maybe Hillary should come and talk to Bobby. I’m serious, because I think that that was a big part… I think, when I think about it in the context of this interview, she has checkmarks in terms of her reputation, but she didn’t engage with people emotionally, because she really didn’t have a story, or she has a story to tell. But she wasn’t telling it. She wasn’t being proactive. Bobby Umar: Although I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t say that’s the only thing I mean, … a common systemic thing that happens that women have to check – women often feel they have to put their emotions in check because of misogyny in the world. Because that’s how they have to be in the boardroom or in the corporate space. Things are changing for the better. But we’re not there yet. So I think those there are a lot of things there too, that are kind of complicated. And that, you know, shouldn’t be ignored. AW: But you mentioned advocacy is one of the roles that she’s had. And she could say, she’s been advocating for women this entire time. And yeah, I just personally endured it all. Yeah, it works. Bobby Umar: Yeah. Part of the challenge is You say, Well, I’m, I’m here for everybody. The problem is sometimes people feel like, it gets lost. It’s like when you do what we need, when you target a story or for a brand you say, who’s your brand? Like for example, I run I run a personal branding course. Who’s the course for? Well, technically, it’s for everybody, but I can’t say that because then no one’s gonna want to take it. Right. I say I say focus on these two key demographics, then, you know, then we can just focus on stories just around those two things and really build a brand around that. Those two things. AW: Yeah, it makes sense. Okay, so this also all relates to marketing and brands. And as we were talking just before we pressed record, you and I both had some experience working in marketing at Kraft Foods. Could you tell the listeners a little bit about the significance of storytelling for brands? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, it’s kind of like when you create a customer avatar, and you want to market to those people, you have to understand their stories, and who they are and what they’re all about. The stories tell you about your values, your belief or culture, you know, your demographic, or psychographic. AW: Can I just interject? Do you remember what the avatar was at? Kraft? It was young busy moms. Bobby Umar: Oh, was it? Okay, AW: I remember young busy moms. Bobby Umar: Sure. AW: And they had an acronym them: YBM. Bobby Umar: Okay, yeah. So like, you know, thy need really quick, short, easy recipes to put together for dinner. Yeah. So you know, you think – so one is to focus on the stories of that customer avatar, that’s one thing. And the second thing is that when you create a commercial or an ad, you have to tell a story. Here’s a story of this young busy mom was struggling to take the kids to soccer practice and make dinner. But then she worked on her job and she coming home and oh my god, I only have you know, 20 minutes to make some dinner and what do I have in the fridge? Oh, there’s Kraft cheese and all that, you know, then next thing you know…,but that’s the story. And that story sells, because it’s relatable. it humanizes you. AW: So, is it that the brand is a prop in the story of the consumer? Bobby Umar: Hmm. That’s a good question. It depends on the brand. I mean, that’s kind of hard to say. I mean, some brands have a story behind them. Like, again, I used to work at Kraft on cheese. And so we looked at the JLKraft premium cheese that they had, there was a whole story around the craftsmanship, and the time it took to make that cheese and they had a whole history, the heritage around that. So they had that. Whereas, you know, KD might be a little different, where it’s like, okay, you know, like, it’s just cool and hip and young people do this, and you know. But there’s a story about the young people as well. So maybe that one seems more like a commodity in terms of telling the story about being a young hip cool person. But I think every – I think every brand has a story behind it. AW: Can you think of any brands that are in our marketplace right now that are doing a great job of using storytelling? Bobby Umar: There’s so many, but I think the person who comes to my mind is Nike. AW: always.  It’s always Nike. Bobby Umar: Yeah, I mean, look, we are now at a time of an elevated, heightened awareness of racial injustice. Five years ago, people – so many people mocked Colin Kaepernick. But now we have entire football teams not even showing up for the anthem, because they’re protesting and it’s becoming more and more acceptable for everyone to do that. And so that awareness has been huge. And Nike, you know, put some ads out where they base their message – it had nothing to do with selling sneakers, just saying, this is something we believe in, we support, here’s why it’s important. That’s it. And they’re all they’re doing is they’re selling their values. They’re selling their beliefs. That’s powerful. And, you know, the brands that are able to do that and stay ahead of the curve are the ones who think they’re going to come out ahead. AW: Mm hmm. Yeah. And back to my question about using the product as a prop in the story. I’ve heard that the Nike strategy is really focused on the idea of heroes. So celebrating heroes, heroes wearing Nike, again, as a prop. Right. So Colin Kaepernick has become a huge hero, and it’s just become even more reinforced recently. Right? Yeah. Bobby Umar: Yeah. And I think the whole point of storytelling is that people invest in people. People invest in stories; they invest in values and beliefs and cultures. And if a brand is associated with those things, then they’re more likely to buy those things. But ultimately, it’s about the people and the stories and the beliefs and the culture. AW: Okay, so I have one more question for you before we move on to the five rapid fire questions that is related to all of this. If there’s a brand manager out there, say it’s for a start-up and back to the blank slate, imagine your brand is a blank slate, because there’s no brand equity associated with it whatsoever. How would you I guess, in general terms, go about coming up with a story for the brand? Bobby Umar: Well, again, for the brand thing, I mean, the main thing keep in mind is that, you know, where do you want that brand to be? Right? So that’s an important piece. How is a brand currently perceived? Where do you want that brand to be? You know, people need to see a brand message over seven times before they started actually believing it and started to shift their mindset around it. That to me is important. But you have to talk to your customers, you have to talk to customers see how they perceive it? What would be ideal for you, what would you like to see this product, or this brand be in six months or two years, and see what they say? And then carve out a strategy that allows you to try to move things along that direction. AW: Right, right. And putting the lens on it to not, as we learned, not do everything that the consumer tells us right? Bobby Umar: Yeah, I mean, you also have to like, take that in consideration, right? I mean, part of our job as brand experts or brand managers is to also evolve the audience to where we think they should go. And Apple does a good job of, you know, looking to the future and saying, No, this is where we want to be. And eventually moving people that way. I’m the same way too when it comes to personal branding. Like I spend a lot of my time educating the audience, educating companies and employers about the importance of brand new thought leadership, about the importance of storytelling, because a lot of people just aren’t on board yet. They don’t get it. So we spend a lot of time educating and taking them to where they want to go. AW: Seems like a no brainer to me. Bobby Umar: Yeah, but you know, like that this because you you’re… AW: I drank the Kool-Aid! Bobby Umar:  Yah you drink the Kool Aid. Yeah, but a lot of people haven’t. That’s fine. It’s amazing that people have not. So there’s always powers and variables that play that, you know, hold people back: fear, doubt, you know, the pressure to be profitable and things like that. So it’s challenging for people. AW: Okay, so if you don’t mind we’re gonna move on to the five rapid fire questions now. Let’s dig into Bobby’s brain and learn about his story. Are you ready? First question: what are your pet peeves? Bobby Umar: My pet peeves are hypocrisy and ignorance. I find those things to be …. people just aren’t aware of those things. They don’t see how hypocritical or ignorant they are when they say or do things I find that really to be a huge, huge problem. AW: Hmm. Have you ever heard someone or read someone who was trying to use storytelling and they ended up sounding hypocritical? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I think it happens a lot. I mean, a perfect example is the racial, racial injustice – with people who are, you know, deemed to be, you know, racially insensitive, and they tell a story about how: Yeah, well, I had a friend who was, you know, a personal color. Well, that story just comes across as you know, meaningless or hypocritical because they don’t really get it. They’re not listening. AW: That’s a great example. It’s very timely, and also very common. Bobby Umar: Yeah. It happens all the time. AW: Okay, second, second. Rapid Fire. Question What type of learner are you? Bobby Umar: I’m a learn-by-doing or visual learner. Visually I learn. But I’m more – I like to get my hands in and to do it and learn-by-doing. I just do. Some people ask me, do you read a lot of books? and I actually don’t even read books and I don’t learn by reading at all. I’m not an academic learner. I learn by doing. Visual is also something that’s really powerful for me. But I’m also I’m also learned by listening. So I think I’ve learned a lot by thousands of conversations that I’ve had over the years with people to learn about stuff, so for me, that’s kind of how I learned. AW: Next question, you have answered implicitly probably 20 times in the last several minutes: Introvert or extrovert? Bobby Umar: oh, I’m an extrovert. AW: I’m shocked! Bobby Umar: yeah, my you know, I remember doing Myers Briggs and my extrovert was 100%. Like 100% completely. And you know, it’s funny nowadays in my old age, per se, I’m down to like, sometimes 95%. Yeah, so I’m getting on in my years, but still, it’s still 95 %. AW: Okay, next question. Communication preference. for personal communication? Bobby Umar: Hmm, usually I text them. Texts are fast. And the other thing too, like, I’ve turned off all my notifications from Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Messages and Tweets. If I go in, I’ll see them but otherwise I won’t see them. So the only way to really message me is text a phone call or WhatsApp. That’s it. So for me, text and WhatsApp are probably the quickest way to get my attention. AW: Got it. So I’m interested in your notifications, comment on how many times a day do you go in and check your social media? Bobby Umar: Oh, probably far too much. But, you know, sometimes on a good day, I’ll go in the morning, do my thing, and then I’ll leave and then I’ll check at lunchtime and I’ll check. Maybe on a good day, it’ll be maybe four to five times per day. On a bad day, it might be like 20, every half an hour every hour or whatever, like that type of thing. But, you know, I, I admit my challenges there. But turning off my notification has been a game changer. In terms of me getting my work done. I think that’s been really tremendous. AW: What I did, I did, you may have done this as well, but I turned off all my notifications and I put them all in one file. And I put the file on the second page on my phone. So when I turn my phone on, I don’t even see them. Bobby Umar: Oh, interesting, okay, AW: it’s consistent with the nudge theory, right? Like I’m nudging myself along in the direction that I want to go. Bobby Umar: Yeah. And again, the studies show that the notifications are designed scientifically to get your attention. And so by turning them off, that was a game changer. I did. I started that beginning of 2019, two years ago. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most lately? Bobby Umar: Well, I mean, I love listening to Gary Vaynerchuk. Every time he shares something on Instagram or I’m on his email newsletter, that’s a really good one. And then in terms of podcasts, my favorite one is Pod Save America. And I’m very political. So like, I love to say, I find this stuff to be extremely fascinating. AW: Great. I’ll put links to those in the show notes. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience about storytelling or? Bobby Umar: Well, I think ultimately they comes down to building up a thought-leadership brand for yourself.  If you want to become a thought leader in your field, no matter what it is, you have to work on your relationship building and networking, you have to work on your ideas and content generation, you have to work on your communication and speaking and writing skills. And so storytelling helps all those areas and they all help in relation building. Because if you want to become a thought leader, work on storytelling, work on relationship building, work on branding, and you’re gonna actually be able to take your thought leadership brand and take that to that next level. And so I think everyone should invest in those things to do so. And if people need help, I have programs and coaching stuff that I do. AW: I feel like your message there is that storytelling is the tactic that you can use, as you said, in your networking in the development of your personal brand in everything in your reputation management and everything that you’re doing. And so it’s actually not a tactic. It’s a strategy. Bobby Umar: and I’m seeing it now because before, my tactic was always power of connection. That’s my hashtag. I say power of connection is a way that you do everything better. But now I’m seeing the storytelling is one of the best tactics that actually helps with the power of connection to build all those things. I talked about entrepreneurship. So I’m using storytelling as my flagship tactic to help people do those things. AW: A tactic almost sounds like it’s trivial. It’s, it sounds like it’s worthy of being called a strategy but Bobby Umar: well, skill. I mean, you know, whatever it is, like, you know, if you want to build a superpower, storytelling is the one. And before used to be speaking, communication, empathy, those sorts of things, but storytelling can actually accomplish all those things. AW: If storytelling is your superpower, then you are a superhero. Yeah Bobby Umar: Yeah. AW: Brilliant. Thank you.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Good luck with your storytelling.  And talk soon! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #60 THE POWER OF STORYTELLING with influencer & speaker Bobby Umar appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Confidence Coaching – Communicate with CONFIDENCE – in the moment:  Learn the 5-step formula to communicate with confidence when you feel that nervous energy. The 5 steps include asking a question, breathing, acting confident, focusing with no distractions, and listening, using your ears.  This is confidence coaching in the moment – you got this! REFERENCES – Confidence in the moment Talk About Talk Episodes Referenced *** COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE Part 1: Mental Preparation *** https://talkabouttalk.com/58-communicate-with-confidence-mental-preparation BODY LANGUAGE with Cynthia Barlow https://talkabouttalk.com/1-body-language-with-executive-coach-cynthia-barlow/ BREATHING & POSTURE with Dr. Nadine Kelly https://talkabouttalk.com/43-posture-breathing-with-dr-nadine-kelly-yogimd/ COMMUNICATION SKILLS OF EFFECTIVE LEADERS with Heather Stark https://talkabouttalk.com/52-communication-skills-of-effective-leaders-with-heather-stark/ LISTENING with Norman Bacal https://talkabouttalk.com/41-listening-with-norman-bacal/ NETWORKING with Sharon Mah-Gin https://talkabouttalk.com/45-networking/ POSSESSIONS with Russell Belk https://talkabouttalk.com/17-what-our-possessions-say-with-russell-belk/ PRESENTING WITH CONFIDENCE with Andrew Musselman https://talkabouttalk.com/48-presenting-with-confidence-podcast/ STORYTELLING with Jerry Zaltman https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ USING YOUR VOICE with Bradley Christensen https://talkabouttalk.com/2-using-your-voice-with-baritone-opera-singer-bradley-christensen/   Books “The Self Confidence Workbook” (B. Markway & C. Ampel) “Confidence Gap Guide” (R. Harris)   Articles & Videos Amy Cuddy TEDTalk on Body Language and Acting Confident – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc&feature=youtu.be FASTCOMPANY – https://www.fastcompany.com/90370098/these-instant-confidence-boosters-can-help-you-overcome-your-nerves PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/changepower/201808/11-ways-project-confidence-and-be-taken-seriously PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/changepower/201808/11-ways-project-confidence-and-be-taken-seriously PSYCHOLOGY TODAY – https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hide-and-seek/201510/self-confidence-versus-self-esteem   THANKS for listening – and READING!   Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com             ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #59 COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE: Part 2 – Confidence Coaching appeared first on Talk About Talk.

  Communicate with confidence: There’s the mental preparation, then there’s confidence in the moment.  In this first of a two-part series, we focus on the 4P’s of mentally preparing to communicate with confidence: Practice, as in rehearsing; Proverb, as in adopting a mantra; Pep talk; and Pirate, as in copying that confident feeling.   THANKS for listening – and READING! Web:         https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com       ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #58 COMMUNICATE WITH CONFIDENCE: Part 1 – Mental Preparation appeared first on Talk About Talk.

HOW TO ASK FOR HELP? Consider the 3Ms: Mindset, Motivations and Metaphors. Researcher Gretchen Barton of OZA shares her expertise, including insights from a recent Gates Foundation project on “Understanding Perceptions of Poverty” in America. Asking for help- be it expertise, time or money – isn’t easy, but you can learn to seek help with confidence.    REFERENCES & LINKS – How to Ask For Help Gretchen Barton of OZA Gretchen Barton & OZA LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/gretchen-barton-3690231/ Olson Zaltman & Associates (OZA) website – https://olsonzaltman.com/ “Storytelling” podcast episode with Harvard Professor Jerry Zaltman of OZA – https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation presentation “Understanding Perceptions of Poverty” – https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cRKnH_nUN529O_NkdJhDYIIVHmgMSG2rVGWw2_3UGD0/edit#slide=id.g87b0c90985_1_38 Ask for Help – BOOKS “Reinforcements: How to get people to help you” by Heidi Grant – https://amzn.to/2C1lsSq “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss – https://amzn.to/31hXMSl  Ask for Help – Articles Aknin, Lara B., Elizabeth W. Dunn, Gillian M. Sandstrom, and Michael I. Norton.”Does Social Connection Turn Good Deeds into Good Feelings? On the Value of Putting the ‘Social’ in Prosocial Spending.” International Journal of Happiness and Development 1, no. 2 (2013): 155–171. https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/11148070 Alison Wood Brooks, Francesca Gino, Maurice E. Schweitzer “Smart People Ask for (My) Advice: Seeking Advice Boosts Perceptions of Competence” – Management Science- https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/mnsc.2014.2054? Daniel A. Newark, Francis J. Flynn, Vanessa K. Bohns “Once Bitten, Twice Shy: The Effect of a Past Refusal on Expectations of Future Compliance,” Social Psychology * Personality Science –https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550613490967 Flynn, F. J., & Lake, V. K. B. (2008). If you need help, just ask: Underestimating compliance with direct requests for help. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 95(1), 128–143. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.95.1.128 HBR article “How to Get the Help You Need”- https://hbr.org/2018/05/how-to-get-the-help-you-need HBR article – “3 Myths That Stop People from Asking for Help at Work” Vanessa K. Bohns – https://hbr.org/2020/06/3-myths-that-stop-people-from-asking-for-help-at-work TIP JARS: https://www.ama.org/2020/07/10/how-to-boost-tips-and-donations-with-the-dueling-preference-approach/    Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT – HOW TO ASK FOR HELP with GRETCHEN BARTON Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you so much Gretchen for sharing your expertise on how to ask for help. Gretchen Barton: My pleasure. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. AW: Why don’t we start by you telling us about the Poverty in America project that you’ve been working on for the Gates Foundation. GB: This has been a really fulfilling experience, to work with the Gates Foundation over the past year. One of the initiatives that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has been looking to do is to understand what poverty is in America and how to fix it. They partnered with us in an exploration of the four major audiences in America that had been identified by some previous research. They’re called the Progressives, the Conflicted, the Strivers and the Bootstrappers. Basically that represents the prominent ways people think about poverty in America today. And they asked us to uncover their unconscious thinking about it. To figure out a way to speak to them – in a way that everyone could be sitting at a dinner table and everyone would understand what you were saying – and be willing to help. AW: This was the ultimate question. How do you ask for help in a way that resonates with various targets, target markets,… So you guys came up with a segmentation scheme? GB: Yeah, absolutely. That’s definitely a great way of putting it. I mean, we wanted to find a way of connecting deeply with people so that they would understand the problem, feel a sense of urgency about the problem, feel interested in doing something and give them a path forward to do it. So absolutely. It’s just really another way to ask for help, which is, I suppose is what good marketing really is, whether it’s like, “please buy my product”, or “please give me a raise boss,” or “please help me with this project.” It’s all really about reaching out into the ether and finding a way to connect deeply with somebody or please, in this case, please care about these people. And please do something about it. AW: So whether it’s volunteering or opening up your checkbook. Right? GB: right. Absolutely. I think it’s not easy, you know, and whenever you do a project like this, you reflect on your own experience with whatever the subject at hand is. So I was reflecting a little bit on taking my kids to daycare on my way to work. And having a double stroller. And being like, I’m gonna make it to work on time. And I’m going to get the kids to the daycare and everyone’s going to make it with all their limbs intact. And but I remember seeing this woman outside of McDonald’s and she was crying on the phone. I could tell from the conversation, or I surmised, that she was being evicted from her home. She was going through a really rough spot. I remember just going through this quick thinking of Oh, no, what do I do? I want to help. I want to help. How do I help? I’ve got two kids. I can’t help. What do I do? Give her money? I can’t. That’s not going to fix it. This is a bigger problem. Should I invite her to live in our house? That would be weird. My husband probably wouldn’t approve. I don’t know what to do. And then, I scurry on to daycare and feel terrible about it, you know. But I thought about her the rest of the day. And honestly, throughout the course of this project, I feel like in so many instances, we see a problem and we don’t know what to do. We feel deeply about it, but we just … our head explodes and we move on with our lives. AW: Yeah, so it sounds as if maybe part of the research was looking at providing citizens, no matter which of the of the segments, the target markets that you outlined there, providing them with, as you said, a pathway or a sequence of things to think about and to do. What about on the other side? So how can institutions, companies, charities, effectively engage those people? I’m not sure how much detail you can share what the results or the findings were from this research. First of all, are they public? GB: The Gates Foundation has a mission against gray data (which I didn’t know about before), which is like not having stuff just sit on the shelf, they really want to make sure that the research that they pay for, the work that they do, gets out and is used, and it’s very helpful. So we’re going to be sending that out probably in the next couple of months. You know, I think that corporations, NGOs, institutions all have a role to play. It’s funny that corporations have such an outsized influence on the way that we think about things that our life you know, whether it’s just like commercials or the products that we have or the programs they set in place or the influence that they have on how government works. They have fingerprints everywhere. For good and for bad. So engaging the corporate community is so important when thinking about how to tackle any kind of societal issue or social problem, right? It doesn’t just happen on an individual level. It happens on a systemic larger level through the programs that we have and also the words that we use. So it’s certainly something that we’re thinking about. I still remember the Nike Colin Kaepernick commercial that came out. The commercials certainly made me cry. And it was just like a wonderful statement for Black Lives Matter, which is so important. AW: So coincidentally, that commercial was released right before I interviewed Jerry Zaltman for a Talk About Talk podcast focused on storytelling and I asked him – not thinking about that commercial or Nike at all, which brands he thinks are getting it right. And he said, Nike has nailed the hero archetype and the hero storyline and Colin Kaepernick, no matter what your politics are, he personifies that. So that was brilliant for them. And here we are, I know I get the shivers. Fast forward. GB: That’s awesome. AW: You mentioned a few things there. And I’m wondering, related back to how we ask for help. So you talked about the significance of corporations for profit, and specifically NGOs, and the influence that they have positive and negative on our culture and our society and everything we say think and do probably. So my question is, is that part of what you’re finding was when a message is broadly shared by corporations and other institutions, then is it encouraging people to help more when other institutions are acknowledging the issue? GB: That’s a really good point. I mean, yes, more is more. I mean, I think that any kind of social issue requires help from everywhere. You know, as a kid, I think I used to think of things very much from a personal agency perspective. You know, it was like the starfish on the beach story. You know, the kid throwing the starfish back into the ocean and the guy coming up a little girl and being like, oh, what are you doing? She’s like, I’m gonna save this one here. I can’t save the world, I know, but this one I made a difference on. And like, that’s so great, right? Like our personal agency making a difference is so important. But my God, there are a lot of starfish out there on that beach, right? And we have to understand that society is a larger world, it can’t just be us. And it can’t just be our community. Those are all important. It’s also our institutions. It’s also our programs and our networks, right? AW:  as a marketer. I’m thinking well, therefore, if we can ask for help from our networks to then also asked as you say, you’re broadening the message and more is more. GB: Yeah, absolutely. None of us get anywhere alone. You know, you reflect on that when you’re eating dinner, right? There’s so many hands that touch that food that touch that table, the touch made sure that you have electricity and air conditioning and everything and the choices in your life, the education which led you to the job, which helps you pay for the food, which is why I just I feel so much gratitude. There’s so much help that is given to us on a daily basis that we don’t even ask for… AW: Very good point. You know what , when I was preparing for this interview. I hadn’t thought of that. I’m very grateful. Of course, I’m grateful. But I hadn’t thought about the fact that in the context of how to ask for help, I’m being helped all the time. And I’m not even aware of it. GB: Yeah, it really hits home, too. When you think about what’s happening in the world right now with the pandemic, AW: A friend of mine on social media shared that she was really proud that her daughter had secured her first job, and she was a cashier at a grocery store, guess what she’s getting paid minimum wage, and now she’s putting her life on the line so that people can cash out with their groceries. That’s crazy, right? GB: Yeah, it is crazy. AW: So when I asked you about the topline results from the Poverty in America Gates Foundation project, one of the things that you said – I re-coded it or renamed it – to broadly share it across your network. So that’s thinking about it at a macro perspective, but I think also at a micro perspective, you said the words you use are really important. GB: Yeah, yeah, they really are.  Words have such resonance with us. There’s the meaning that the person intends, but then there’s the meaning that a person co-creates based on their experience around that – based on the context of the emotion… For example, you can ask somebody to help and you can say, you know, I want you to go along on a journey with me, or let’s share some time together. Or I can say, hey, do me a favor, or Can I steal time from you? Right? Those are three different asks that imply very different relationships. And one of the things that’s been kind of shocking for me, as I’ve grown up, and then also, as I’ve raised kids, and as I’ve worked, is just you can just tweak the verb, the metaphor that you’re using, and create completely different meaning a completely different experience for somebody. So we do a lot of work at my firm in metaphors, and people describe how they feel in a profound deep level through metaphorical imagery in their conversations. And then we analyze it and we look at, okay, what are the verbs they’re using? How are they using it choosing the right words when we ask somebody for help? It’s really, really important. In this research, we ended up coming up with a story about navigation, right? Because it sort of spoke to all of the different understandings that people had about poverty. Progressive thinkers think a lot about the system the larger landscape or seascape as it were of poverty. People who are conflicted think about it in terms of like a fight-or-flight or freeze. They think about, oh god, this is happening. They see the system, but they also see their personal agency and then they don’t know what to do. People who are Strivers often look at it as a sense of connection and being disconnected from a larger thing. So they’re like a boat without a rudder, just floating aimlessly. And then Bootstrappers see it as like, if you just throw hard enough and kick hard enough out of the water, you’re going to make it and so it sort of paints this larger picture of a large ocean. Like think the Titanic, you know, where people are trying to get out of the water they’re trying to survive. It’s an existential threat poverty and you navigate it right? Life is a journey and you push through and you help each other through it. You don’t let people be consumed by the element. It’s just a different way of thinking about it. AW: You’ve painted a very, very vivid image. GB: It’s kind of a heartbreaking thing. When you think about it, the idea that people in poverty feel like they’re drowning. And there’s the sense of I’d like to help you, but I’m afraid that I do then I’m going to die drown myself, right? Just so much fear. AW: It’s really powerful. So what would you do with that output? You have this, you said, it’s like navigating a seascape when you have the natural elements you talked about in the water and the drowning and the vessel and the oars and the other sailors you’re meeting along the way, all of those elements, right, GB: right. AW: So what do you do with that? GB: We were talking about how the words that you use are really important, you know, when you think about stories. You want it to be a story that people can co-create off of, or they can vibe with, really, you want it to be a story where they can see themselves in it and go, aha, here I am, here’s where I fit. And you want to be a story of some urgency, right? You wanted to have some availability was like, Okay, here’s where I fit, and I can do something. And then you want to have them get the idea of advantage of how it will be good for them to do something. So in terms of how you use it, oftentimes, we’ll say use the images that people brought in use the words that they use to echo back that deep understanding of how they think about things and in profoundly deep way. And when you do that, you give people the tingles and move people along. So that’s one thing that our research partners are going to continue doing there. They’re going to look at the images that our participants brought in and they’re going to use that in the applications of messaging around poverty in the United States, and they’re going to use the words that participants use so that’s part of it, you know, they don’t need to dress up like sailors or, you know,… AW: Right. But the spirit of it. GB: Yeah, yes. AW: Is there anything else in terms of words? GB: I think just that there’s some words that can really activate action. And then there’s some words that implicitly say don’t do anything. I got this. Like, there’s a lot of talk in the United States about how the government has been hijacked. Let’s think about hijacking for a second, though, right? You’re in the plane, someone’s taken over the cockpit. What are your options? Right? You can go and jump in and like fly the plane yourself. But that’s like a life and death scenario. But there’s a lack of agency there that that idea presents. So what’s a better metaphor? Are we navigating through this? Let’s get our sailors together. We’re gonna steer the ship differently. AW: Just those subtle tweaks, right? GB: Yeah. It’s kind of a funny thing, being a mom now because I listen to the words that my kids say and they’re still learning the meaning of words. My daughter is just learning the word respect. What kind of meaning is she co-creating around that? What is she actually thinking? What does she want to communicate? It’s kind of a fun thing to do. AW: Just you wait. Just wait till she becomes a teenager… GB: Oh, God. It’s gonna be fun. Yeah. AW: As you were speaking before, though, I was thinking this really does apply to parenting. And I mean, back to the context of asking for help. It’s like, come on, help me here. We have all these things we need to do in the house. You’re sitting there playing video games, and you can choose different metaphors, different words. Yeah. So that actually leads me nicely into my next question. And you can answer this in the context of the Gates Foundation research or other research that you’ve done. What about how to ask for help directly? GB: One research project that we did with a non-profit had to do with financial security and insecurity. And one of the things that we found was that people who were economically insecure often had a great degree of shame. Right? AW: That was gonna be my next question. Why are we ashamed to ask for help? GB: I think we’re afraid of people seeing who we are. Maybe the vulnerability of it. You know, we talked about Jerry, Dr. Jerry Zaltman. I just love that man. And, and one of the reasons that I do is that he is so humble and great at asking questions, but I’ve been in a lot of meetings with Jerry, and you’ll hear him like, take a breath, and then he’ll go, I’m sorry, I may be daft or he’ll say something self-deprecating. But tell me about the meaning of the word. What does that mean to you? And he’ll slow the whole thing down. Then it’s like, well hang on a second. What are we actually talking about? It’s beautiful, because we’ve gotten the best insights out of just slowing down and examine examining our preconceived notions about what a thing is. And it really has taught me the lesson that like there is no shame and ever asking any question about anything of anyone. AW: The amazing thing you know, you and I both went towards shame and ashamed and those are reasons why we don’t ask questions, but then there’s this. There’s this unicorn named Jerry, who actually we both put on a pedestal. GB: Yeah. AW: He’s so generous and he does ask questions, and he may not be asking for help for himself directly, but on behalf of others, he wouldn’t he wouldn’t think twice of asking for help. Right? GB: And no, right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he’s freaking marvelous. And I think one of the things I also love about him, he always, always asked, How are you? No really, how are you? In our marketing firm, we were really hot into this idea of whole mind these days. And there’s this guy named Iain McGilchrist and he talks about how the brain works together and all the parts and it’s very interesting stuff. And it basically boils down to what is the experience a person has, how do you understand it? How do you connect to people, right? AW: So I’m gonna I’m gonna shift gears here a little bit, but I’m in preparation for this interview, I read an article just in in a business magazine about how to ask for a raise or how to ask for a promotion. And it was very much about interviews and the work environment, how to ask for help, how do you ask for help? Maybe if you are charged with managing or leading a task force and you know that you’re going to need extra bodies on your team? How do you ask people to give that of themselves? Was there any insights from the research that you’ve done that might help managers at work who need help? GB: In our research, we found time and time again, that people long for connection. I mean, it goes without saying, I suppose, but it’s validated. And when people have an opportunity to connect with others, and go alongside someone in their journey, you found that it’s a deeply meaningful experience. So I think for managers who are looking for help or are looking to get support, I think understanding that when you’re on that Trapeze and you’re swinging and you’re reaching out your hand and you’re hoping someone’s there, there are tons of people who are just waiting to be picked. People love to help if you can give them a path forward and say this is what I need. Specifically, people are willing to stand up and do the right thing, you know, it can be scary to put yourself out there. AW: But you know what, what you just said is actually very empowering. People love to help and we all have scarce resources. Time, whatever is being asked of us, is probably a scarce commodity. But I love also how you said if you can resonate somehow with the person’s motivations in terms of connection and meaning. So you could go a level up from what you’re asking and say, you know, I am asking for five hours a week. And here’s what you’re going to get in return. You’re going to get to know people in other departments which can only help you and you’re also going to understand whatever so you’re providing them with connection and meaning. GB: Yes, yes. And growth possibly too. Right. I mean, people have so many different motivations coming into work, you want to paycheck but you know, you also want to grow, you want to be a star, maybe, which I mean, those are all good things. I think as a good manager, you look for the people that you… they have emotional needs and you’re looking to understand, okay, what’s driving them? What do they really want? And maybe it’s all of the above, you know, I’ll take a gold sticker, and, a raise and be better ,and to be connected, you know all of those things. AW: Yeah. And even the people that you’re asking for money for a charity, right? This is the meaning. This is the impact that you’re providing. Right? And then they can learn and help contribute to society. GB: Absolutely. I think that’s a really good point, Andrea, too. I mean, the specificity is really key to sort of say like, this is exactly what this thing will do. Your energy input here will do this good thing and you can see it here and you can see the outcome of it. One of our directors– James Forr– he just posted this cool article about how people will give in tip jars. And there are certain ways that you can elicit more tips from people. There’s all sorts of behavioral tricks, you can look them up a lot. A lot of them come from Cornell University, and they’re very, very good. But people love to express who they are, you know, so if you have a tip jar, for example that says tip here, if you like this sports team versus that’s team, you know, something that like evokes emotion… It really is good finding like where people vibe emotionally, you know, can really spur people on… AW: that reminds me related to identity. So I moderated a brainstorming session at a hospital foundation where we were brainstorming the motivations for people to give money, and one of them that came up was identity. And so you know, a lot of people they want to see their name on an MRI machine or on a building right? or the entrance to the hospital. That’s fair game. They’re still helping, right? GB: So two things. One, there’s a company called Tip Jar. They do a lot of work in the nonprofit space. One of their things is they want people to get that immediate feedback loop of Yes, you tipped and make it easy reduce friction to tip. So they have this thing where you take your credit card and you dip it and then it goes boing and it lights up it flashes so everybody knows that you tipped. Yay! And also you don’t have any change? No problem. And it’s $1 or $20, or whatever they set it for. So you just you don’t have to think you make it very easy for people. I think it’s so, so smart. AW: So the recognition is the word there, right?So identity and recognition are a little bit different. You were talking about having different identities and do, you know, vote this way or this way? That’s identity, and then there’s recognition, public recognition. GB: That’s right. That’s right. Well, also reducing friction, I think is a really interesting thing. Yeah. AW: So if you don’t mind, I’m gonna shift gears before we get to the five rapid fire questions. But when you and I were talking offline, we said we’re both really interested in hostage negotiation. I’m wondering if there are any insights about hostage negotiations in terms of what you’ve learned in this research and how to ask for help? GB: Yeah, there’s this guy named Chris Voss, and I’m just absolutely obsessed. I think that his work is so fascinating. He was a very successful hostage negotiator. He talks a lot about negotiation and the idea is right, if you can save a person from a life and death scenario, then it’s a win. You know, when you negotiate with a hostage taker, you’re not going to the hostage taker and saying, “You’re a terrible person, let the person go.” Like no, what you do is you make friends with the hostage taker, you say, gosh, this is a messed up situation. How do we together partner in this messed up situation to figure out together how to make this thing better? What are our shared goals? What’s our vision together? Let’s craft this make a better world together. And I think about that a lot when it comes to how to ask for help. It’s about saying, like, however hot mess of a situation it is right? You can always go and say, this is a situation that we’re in, how can we make this thing better together? And when it comes to poverty, people have a lot of guilt and they have a lot of shame and they have a lot of blame, whether it’s appropriate or not to feel those things. So if we all just sort of step aside as a society and say, hey, let’s look at this thing together. Not worried about fingerpointing, that opens up the possibility for progress, we’re going to be able to figure something out together and I thought it was such a brilliant insight. AW: I didn’t I didn’t know where you were headed with that! But back to the vessel and the navigation metaphor. We’re in this boat together. How are we going to get to shore? There’s a storm. Let’s figure it out. GB: Yeah, absolutely. We all can we all can take care of each other and help each other out. AW: Again, the power of the metaphor. Okay, are you ready for the five rapid fire questions? GB: I hope so. AW: Okay, first question. What are your pet peeves? GB: Jargon? I hate the word utility. Is that bad? Utilize. I don’t tell people this. So here we are, but it drives me crazy. AW: Like what? GB: people will say oh, I’m going to utilize my pen to write my name. Like my God, why don’t you just say use?!?  please. AW: So I have to tell you this I I have called people on that for years and I gave up I stopped calling people on it. GB: Why make things more complicated than they are? Say it simply. Sai it clearly. AW: Yeah, question number two, what type of learner are you? GB: So I think that I am a little bit of everything. Visual. Yes, I picture things, but I often like will roll things around in my head and I will feel them. I sort of just have my own experience in my head of things and I really do believe in experiencing everything comprehensively. AW: Number three, introvert or extrovert? GB: I’m actually an introvert, but people don’t think that’s true at my workplace. I’ve just practice a lot. I don’t know. It’s just like skydiving. No, you jump up the hatch and you just don’t look back. AW: Okay, question number four. Communication preference for personal conversations? GB: Yeah, I love FaceTime. I think that I like being able to see someone. You can understand so much more than text messages or phone calls. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? GB: I have to tell you, we always have Fresh Air going from NPR all the time. I love the stories that Terry tells and the people that she has on. AW: and just her. GB: Just her. I mean, so good, so good. AW: And also genuinely intellectually curious. Right? GB: Yeah. Which I think is so important these days, especially. AW: Yeah, I don’t think you quite said this. But you almost said it. It’s now more than ever. I keep hearing that now more than ever. GB: Now more than ever. We understand. AW:  This has been great. Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise. Gretchen. Thanks for doing this… I know you’ve got a little one and Oh! GB: Hi, this is Andrea. Can you say Andrea? You never went to sleep … AW: Oh, well, that means you’re gonna go to bed early, right? Say yes.  🙂 Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com           ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #57 HOW TO ASK FOR HELP with researcher Gretchen Barton appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Learn how to choose a brand name. Are you naming a new product? A start-up? A new podcast? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki takes you through the 5 steps, from strategy to name generation, to evaluation, to searching availability and trademarking, to launching the brand! See the shownotes for a useful printable summary.   RESOURCES Brand Naming S. Patent & TM Office – https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics Canadian TM database – https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/home?lang=eng Chevy Nova naming story: (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chevrolet-nova-name-spanish/) ARCHETYPES podcast episode – com/54-archetypes/ ARCHETYPES blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/archetype-blog/ PERSONALITY blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/personality-blog/ Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #56 HOW TO CHOOSE A BRAND NAME appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Female pop stars: there’s the good girl, the temptress, the diva, the hot mess, the survivor… Professor Kristin Lieb shares her research on how pop stars influence and are influenced by culture, how a female pop star’s body is her core brand asset, and how female pop stars evolve through various archetypes over their lifecycle as an artist. Note this is the 2nd episode in a 2-part series on ARCHETYPES.   REFERENCES (See also the shownotes for episode “#54 – ARCHETYPES”) Kristin Lieb Web site: kristinjlieb.com Email: Kristin_lieb@emerson.edu Facebook: Kristin J. Lieb Twitter: @kristinjlieb LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristin-lieb-7849b915/ Kristin Lieb, “Gender, Branding, and the Modern Music Industry: The Social Construction of Female Popular Music Stars” Routledge 2018 – https://amzn.to/3eB2EGA TEDx Talk: “Pop culture is teaching the wrong “lessons” about gender & sexuality” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUN019leZUA Other Resources Professor Jerry Zaltman – “STORYTELLING” Talk About Talk podcast interview “Marketing Metaphoria: What Deep Metaphors Reveal About the Minds of Consumers” (2008) Professor Susan Fournier – https://www.bu.edu/questrom/profile/susan-fournier/ Fournier, Susan, (1998) “Consumers and their Brands, Developing Relationship Theory in Consumer Research” Journal of Consumer Research  Fournier, Susan & Yao, Julie L., (1997) “Reviving brand loyalty: A reconceptualization within the framework of consumer-brand relationships,” International Journal of Research in Marketing, vol.14, issue 5. Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki ARCHETYPES episode #54 – talkabouttalk.com/54-archetypes Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Subscribe to the Podcast – https://talkabouttalk.com/podcasts/#subscribe Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com     INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you very much, Kristin for joining us here today to talk about female popstars. Professor Kristin Lieb: You’re welcome. Thanks for inviting me. AW: Let’s start with the Grammys. Recently, Billie Eilish was the second artist and the first woman in history to sweep all four categories of the Grammys. Of course, I looked it up and previously in 1981, it was Christopher Cross who did the same thing. But here’s my question. Why is Billie Eilish resonating so deeply right now? KL: I think there are a number of reasons she’s resonating so deeply right now. First, she  represents the girl who isn’t like the others, right? So that’s a position that people like Pink had held before her, you know, where usually we have the girl next door, you know, you could look at someone like Britney Spears or Taylor Swift or you know, any of those types of stars who rose up through the ranks. Every once in a while you get a tomboy next door (that’s old person language. I’m not quite sure what we’d call that now!) But that’s what you have in Billie Eilish. Like, she’s very clear about not wanting to play the game of making her artistry about her clothing and things like that. Right? She’s very actively saying, I want to conceal my body in different ways, because I don’t necessarily want people to comment on it. AW: Right. KL: So this is something that is speaking back to a number of cultural tensions right now. So that  makes her different. The fact that she is talking about very taboo subjects, I think also makes her resonate. We could think about her big hit “Bad Guy.” Well, she was 17 when that album came out, so she’ wa presumably younger than that when the album was made, and she’s talking about having bruises on both her knees for you, and being a might seduce your dad type. Right? So this is going to set alarm bells off, you know, for some people. Is she playing a role? Is she trying to be provocative because she’s suggesting a sophistication about sex  when she’s not yet reached the age of consent? Or are we concerned that you know, maybe her collaboration with her older brother who’s  21 or 22 at the time? Is it his influence wanting to construct your image in this way for the delight of the male gaze or something like that? So there’s so much that’s so complicated, and you know, reasonable people can disagree about whether this is autobiography or a performance or perhaps a mixture of both. This is true for so many artists, but I think she’s pushing cultural buttons that make her very interesting. The other thing I should mention about her is if you watch her videos, right, if you watch her “Bury a friend” video, you know, there’s all kinds of imagery. I show this in my class. And my students take it to be like a horror film as you watch it. And they were commenting on all the images of gloved hands coming for her, syringes coming from her, images that evoke different thoughts. But then I asked, Did anybody listen to the lyrics? Because throughout that song, she’s saying, I want to end me, I want to end me, I want to end me. So if we pivot over to Demi Lovato for a minute, she performs at the Grammys. Same Grammys. That song called Anyone, and she’s literally crying as she performs. And she’s singing lines, like, you know, I told secrets till my, my throat was sore. And she keeps returning to this idea, but nobody’s listening to me and you dig back into that story and that was written right before or right after an overdose in 2018. Right. So what both of these artists are presenting to me is that we’ve culturally turned the corner from declaring young women who struggle with mental health or addiction problems in public as hot messes. And we’re now  constructing them as more triumphant survivors. But you know, there are questions we can ask ourselves about whether being so personally vulnerable in public is something that’s sustainable for a young star. AW: Wow, there’s so much to unpack there. I love your triumphant survivors comment, and it reminded me of a conversation that I had with Professor Jerry Zaltman. And he’s talking about the typical storyline of the hero’s journey, which is often associated with a male. Right? And here we are talking about female pop stars. So that’s interesting. And another one of my favorite things that you said was, is this autobiography or performance? I mean, wow, I definitely want to get into that. But before we do, let’s just back up – what is a pop star? KL: Probably that definition has changed radically in recent years. So I look at someone who is at the absolute top of the music industry game. And so historically, that meant you know, record sales and awards and notoriety and so on. And now obviously, record sales are far less important than they used to be. But certainly streaming has come along so many measures of pop star success look at both sales and streams now. But for female pop stars, music has been a tertiary concern for so long, and I hate saying that. But that’s where all of my research has led me. When I was first doing this work as a dissertation prior to writing the first edition of my book, I was  concluding through interviews with music industry professionals who make and popularize female pop stars that a dominant theme was that the popstars body was her core asset, right. And it was her body’s extendibility into all these different entertainment realms. So what I mean by that is, I think all these women are actually talented musicians. I think a lot of people like to take that away from them. But I think more than being a talented musician, you have to be talented across so many different entertainment realms in order to  hit the mark of being a pop star, as opposed to say, an indie star who makes music and is known for her music, right? So, you know, she is someone who has to be interesting enough for all kinds of  celebrity publications to want to cover her. She’s probably going to have some reality television show. She’s pretty probably going to have a fragrance line, she’s probably going to have a clothing line, if not multiple clothing lines, she’s probably going to be incredibly dominant and influential on social media, she might have her likeness, or her songs, included in games. She’s probably working with consumer brands, she’s probably working with music supervisors to some extent to get her songs into television programs and film. She’s probably talking with other stars about how to trade target markets for lack of a better way of saying it you know, let me let me court your fans while you court mine through this collaboration. Things like that, obviously, you know, sales and streaming are all part of it. But more than that, it’s cultural influence. At this point. AW: I started listing all of the jobs that female pop star does, and then when you said that they’re a collaborator with others, I thought this is exactly like the job of a podcaster – with the exception of dancing and singing. KL: Exactly, and you know, the dancing, it’s about being able to create a spectacle, right? Because that’s a huge part of it too, right? AW: Can you share with us how you conducted the research for your book? KL: I began with interviews with industry professionals who make and popularized pop stars, who make these people and I asked, what they think about as they make them and what are the, you know, consequences and outcomes and so on. And so I decided to identify and interview people who inhabited all different types of roles. So I was looking at journalists and publicists and artists, managers and people who worked at record labels and photographers and people like that, because I thought they all had something to do with the way we come to understand these figures. AW: That is a beautiful segue into the Cultural Diamond. Here is a critical framework that you use in your book. Can you describe it? KL: Sure. This is a framework created by a sociologist named Wendy Griswold and I thought it was incredibly useful and I think it is … in fact I use it every term in my classes as a starting point – as a way of understanding pop star influence and influences. And what I mean by that is at the top of the diamond, you have the social world. So if I look at – I’m just picking from random, but if I look at Christina Aguilera – so Christina Aguilera as a woman who lives in the United States culture in 2020, knows what she gets rewarded for and punished for, as a woman, right? So that’s without her being a pop star or anything that. Her just being a participant in the social world. So other points of the diamonds would be the producer or handler  points on the diamond. And these are all of the people who influenced Christina Aguilera. People who might weigh-in about how she’s singing or how she’s dancing or themes she’s talking about, or, you know, she was on The Voice. So how she wanted to represent herself there, whether she wants to do a collaboration. It could be anyone who has  any stake in her business or her brands. It could be influencers. Now obviously, these people are more influential when artists are younger and less established right? Once an artist gains her following, she’s able to call more of her shots. Then if you look at the other side of the diamonds, you have the audience and that’s us . We get trained to expect pop stars to look and act and sound a certain way. Which is why when you have Adele  breaking into the market,  she doesn’t look  a pop star. And, you know, other people have spoken about that saying, well, when did it become that every popstar is supposed to look like Britney Spears? And you have people like Aretha Franklin saying, Hey, I was at my best singing weight when I was 188 pounds, right? So we get these cultural images of what pop stardom looks like. And then you know, we’re confused when someone seems to  contradict that. So the audience also has some influence on what the cultural object, which is the fourth point on the diamond. That’s what the popstar ends up being. So as a cultural object, Christina Aguilera looks at all of these things that reinforce each other, but don’t cause each other. And she figures out what kind of popstar she’s going to be, right? Which gets to your question of agency a little bit that we talked about before. So, you know, what if a popstar wants to bring herself to market in a hyper-sexualized way? Do  people get upset about objectification in the same way, if this is something that’s coming from her? And I think the Cultural Diamond‘s answer to that would be, it’s hard to really know what a person wants from the inside. When all of these forces, these external forces are shaping, how do you even build your image from the beginning? Does that make sense? AW: Absolutely. So that was a beautiful depiction. And what I’m going to do is in the show notes, I’ll put a reference so that listeners who are interested can reference the cultural diamond. So we talked about the four points being the Social World, and then there’s the Creator, which is kind of the industry players, as you said. Then there’s the Receiver, which is the In this case, the music consumers, the listeners, the participants, I guess. And then the fourth point is the Cultural Object which is, in this case, the female artist, the female pop star herself. And you mentioned how as the female pop star becomes more established as they have more of a following, and I’m paraphrasing, I’m not using your exact words here, but you said, they may come to have some more power so that they can be more influential, I guess in their negotiations with the creators or the players. And it reminded me of we were talking before we press record here about your TEDx talk, which I will also leave a link to in the show notes. It’s a fantastic talk and you talk about power and objectification, it occurred to me that these are related. Those with less power may be objectified. Right, but then again, the artist may seek to be objectified, because maybe that’s how the players make them. So can you talk about a little bit about power and objectification? KL: It’s so hard. And you know, ultimately, I obviously want women artists to be able to present themselves to the world in the way that feels, you know, real and comfortable to them, right? I think where I started getting bothered by the patterns was, if there’s only way one way to  get to the top and succeed, then I think there’s a problem. And also, so many of these artists start so young. And I think what that makes me think about is the fact that you haven’t really established your own identity yet. And then you’re being coached toward these goals or toward these other types of artists positions, that may not be where you would have gotten yourself. If you had been given time to develop your identity on your own, you’re  shaped into a mold and these molds look a lot alike, in a lot of cases, and really around center the body and costumes and dancing and, you know, these kind of things – more than some of those artists might like, right? So you know, it’s tricky. You can’t ever really say, well, this artist wanted this or this person told this artist to do this. I don’t think it’s that simple. I think it’s all those surrounding factors in the cultural diamond influencing what you think your best choice or your best move or your best personal presentation might be. AW: so it’s like they’re mutually reinforcing they’re all the arrows are pointing in all directions to and from all of the points of the diamond. KL: Absolutely. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t mention things like early Britney Spears and Mandy Moore videos were directed by a literal porn director, Gregory Dark. So these influences – they’re not accidental. And so when that’s encoded in teenage popstar DNA, that matures in different ways, for lack of a better word. AW: So let’s get into the maturity. I guess the lifecycle of female pop stars, which is one of the main contributions of your book, which I absolutely devoured. Can you describe the female pop star lifecycle? KL: So I can tell you the intent of the lifecycle model for popular women music stars. The intent of it was to show that there were very enduring patterns of representation for women who were granted permission in various ways to be, or remain, at the top of the music industry, that there was a reason for me that most of my favorite artists never made it beyond the indie level,  the indie star level. So there are plenty of men who I would argue had been successful and flipped over to be very, very popular musicians. But I was realizing that this didn’t really happen with women. I was trying to figure out whether it was a marketing problem. I started to realize that part of it was that the way they were packaged, courted a certain type of audience and maybe put off another kind of audience. So this was just my way of trying to say, I think this is the way the game is, you know, and I would like to record that. And I would like to talk about how we could possibly change and expand this over time. I think it has started to change and expand over time which is good. I can tell you where those things happen. Normally you start in a phase that I call the good girl and that is, you know, the girl next door or the girl you know people want to bring home to mom. She’s not objectionable. She’s hetero-normatively pretty and nobody is really concerned about her behavior or her aggressive views or anything like that. Think about someone like Meghan Trainor, right? She might be a good example. Now though most of the top stars that have gone through this in some variety or other over time. Then you segue into becoming a temptress, right? And so the good girl to temptress is probably most visible when somebody starts as an artist, you know, who becomes prominent when they’re 15 and then they reach the age of consent, right? And then they become the temptress because now it’s safe. Billie Eilish challenges that a little bit. She’s a little bit under the age of consent. That’s another thing that I think makes her differently provocative. Once you hit temptress, it’s the songs and the content … It seems like all these things become more about  sexual availability and the body and sexual appeal and so on and so forth. Right? So you’re moving away from this unobjectionable girl next door into this sort of, you know, temptress type position, and then you get to the middle of the model. And obviously, you can’t remain either a good girl or a temptress forever. And that’s why you see a female popstars changing their images so often. You need to remain dynamic, but dynamic within the parameters of these different categories. AW: the example that comes to mind for me is Madonna. KL: Sure, right. People say Madonna completely reinvented herself every six months, but she had an overarching brand theme. Right? So you could say that her overarching brand theme was something like, you know, sexual playfulness and provocation or something like that. So the way that she communicated that changed many, many, many times. But I would say that the reason that we were able to track her brand was that she had a very meta level brand theme. Does that make sense? AW: Yes. I think it’s brilliant marketing, is what I’d say. KL: Absolutely. And we see that alive and well and beyond in plenty of other popstars as well. It’s a very successful strategy as long as you don’t sacrifice that overarching brand theme and confuse people, right? Or make people feel like you’ve betrayed the brand that they committed to, because these brands  feel like relationships as our friend Susan Fournier has pointed out very eloquently in her research. So then you get to the middle of the lifecycle model, and you have some people who are like, Okay, my ego needs have been met, I’m going to change my focus, I’m not going to be a pop star anymore. I’m going to do something else. So some people go into advocacy work, some people make lateral moves into television or film, but people are just like, maybe I don’t like the terms of this game. And I have the talent to do other things. So I’m going to do that . Somebody like Queen Latifah, right, who goes on goes and becomes a film star and then also becomes a television talk show host and a CoverGirl spokesperson and so on, would be an example of that. AW: So they’re going multimedia, basically. KL: Sure, I would say becoming more of a general purpose celebrity than someone who is known as a popstar. Right. So then we have the diva, which is one of the coveted categories, right? This is where the way that I’m operationalizing people might be different than the way others think of the term. But I’m just saying you’re a best in class singer or musician. And what this entitles you to is to be covered more for your singing or musicianship, then your body, your boyfriend, your accessories, and your dresses and so on. So this is one of the rare moments in the pop star life cycle where we actually talk about the thing that you’re essentially meant to be doing as a musician, right, which is depressing, but at least good that this category exists. All of these terms are things that came out of my research. So in interviews of people, they were referring to talent in this way. These are the terms used to talk about human talent in the music industry, and I thought – I have a choice. I can either sanitize that language as an academic or I can show the industry as it is. And as I said earlier, I really wanted to show the industry as it is. So these terms that I’m using are not my terms. These are terms that arose in these interviews. This is what I heard, and that’s why I retain them. So the next category is called the whore. And this  is operationalized in two different ways, again, coming out in the woods in the interviews. The first is that this person would do anything for money, and it  shows in her performance. And the other is just that we take the temptress a little too far. And so everything is about sex, right? Your entire image is about sex. There’s another category called “exotic” which is meant to be enclosed in finger quotes. And this  disgustingly means that we don’t quite know where you fit into our normal popstar template. And it often means that you’re not from the United States, it often means that you’re not white because we just don’t know what to do with you. So it’s like a catch-all category. Then we have the provocateur, and this is another coveted category because these are the people who just push our culture buttons, right? And then probably known more for that than for anything else. So certainly Beyoncé has done this. Certainly Miley Cyrus has done this at different points. They’re asking us to think about different things. They’re asking us to think about what it means to be a black woman in contemporary culture. It’s asking us to think about what it means to be pansexual and genderqueer at a time that people had no idea what those terms meant, right? So, you know, both of them obviously received a lot of attention, a lot of praise, and a lot of a lot of respect. AW: Everybody’s going to say, by definition, if you’re a provocateur, you are probably polarizing. And that would increase your PR. KL: Absolutely. And you know, but it becomes precarious in cancel-culture too, right? Because now, you know, we’re seeing all kinds of stars having things decontextualized and then cancelled. There’s not even a discussion around recovery. I’ve written about that elsewhere. Certainly, in the queer community. AW: I read that in one of the papers that you wrote, it was Yes, they were rejected for not being queer enough. Or not doing it properly. As you said, wow. KL: Yeah, and so if you’re going to be out there as a provocateur, there are a lot of forces  wanting to cancel you, you know, some of it probably deserved in different ways. And some of it probably not at all deserved and fueled by hatred. Then we have this category called the hot mess, which is, you know, probably the worst of the name categories. But you know, if you think about when I started doing this work that so my dissertation, I finished it in 2007. And this was a word that everyone was tossing around. And so the hot mess was a category that captured the star out of control who was being covered more for her counter normative behavior than anything else, right. So think about Amy Winehouse, or somebody  that. And I think we’ve become culturally a lot more sensitive to what women struggle with, in daily life now in 2020. But in 2007, we weren’t a savvy about that we didn’t have #MeToo, and #TimesUp and all these different things worked in this cultural conversation. So in 2007, it was still like, hey, why is this woman out of control? (Ha-ha) One of my respondents said I remember, when they act like clowns, people laugh. But you know, as I started to unpack that over time, I’m like, wow. But like, there’s a lot behind what’s making people act like that. And we have not yet reached the point where we could ask more empathetic questions about what might be driving that behavior. Is it a mental health issue? Is it an addiction problem? Is it somebody who’s experienced trauma? Is it all of these things maybe coming together and making somebody act out? Like, maybe we should be like, hey, let’s get her help. Let’s not laugh at her. So that has happened over time, right? So when the second edition of my book came out, I was able to write a lot about that. Because I think artists started owning these narratives and explaining what was going on. And then, you know, most reasonable human beings don’t want to laugh at someone when you’ve heard the backstory, right? And so people like Demi Lovato has  taken those struggles and explained her journey through them and emerges triumphant. And I think at this cultural moment, that is a really powerful position that I think resonates with a lot of people who feel that way themselves. AW: Yeah, and I just want to point out for the listeners, what you’re describing implicitly here goes back to the cultural diamond where at certain points in time there were certain templates, as you call them, or perhaps archetypes that would be fulfilled by these female pop stars. Sometimes there was no other terminology available for it, but then because of what they did, you could think about the influence that they then had on the social world or on society and maybe it’s probably because of them that some of these changes have happened. KL: That’s right. And so literally between the first edition in 2013, and the second edition, I added this category called Survivor. People started this conversation about like, hey, that’s not nice. I mean, it’s even back to the Leave Britney Alone video kind of thing that predated this. More people got on that bus saying, hey, there’s a human behind this popstar facade. They build brands to protect themselves in different ways, which is actually smart.  Would you want to be a completely vulnerable human self in public when people are looking to criticize from every possible dimension? But those people who showed too much of their human selves got really punished for it. So this is interesting reclamation of now, if you’re sharing your human self, you’re going to be celebrated it for it. Right? But there’s a tension between – is that sustainable? Is that ultimately healthy for a human to be so personally exposed in public? And so I think that’s our next question to answer. How do we manage identity publicly? Right? And like, what parts of ourselves do we share with audiences  and what parts of ourselves should we keep private? AW: So that that’s related to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is how strategic are female pop stars, I guess and their handlers in terms of managing their way through the lifecycle. And this is  given that they are all managing their quote unquote, brand, are they actually thinking about a longer term lifecycle or are they thinking here’s what the brand is? KL: You know, I don’t even know that they’re thinking that’s what the brand is. AW: Really? KL: I think you have people managing these careers in all different kinds of ways, I mean, a lot of people – this was fascinating – during the interviews so many people said, I loved having the time to actually think about what I do.  I don’t think about what I do. I go on instinct. A lot of us are like that. You know, certainly many jobs don’t give us any time for introspection. You might look at past patterns of success to predict future patterns of success, which is flawed in many ways, right? But you do it. So you go like, Oh, this artist is kind of did this. So we’re going to bring her to market in this way. Right? So your instinct is around what succeeded before you. And I think you repeat those things unconsciously. So I really enjoyed the process of talking through that with these respondents. I selected them because I thought they were incredibly good at what they did. And also, I remember my dissertation advisor being like, My God, these people have like PhDs in the music industry, and that’s a great way to put it. They know the ins and outs of this, but they’re not academic and they’re not necessarily speaking in brand terms or communication terms or theoretical model terms. They’re doing their job. AW: That is fascinating. But I have to ask you, have you had any direct feedback from anyone? KL: Yeah, I’ve definitely had feedback from artists and artists’ managers in particular. Artists saying, My God, I knew something was f—-d up. But I didn’t realize it was this f—-d up, kind of thing. You know, thank you for writing that so that I can understand that it wasn’t just my experience. This is something that happens. And artists’ managers, I’ve had, say, I’m so happy to have your book because I don’t know how to explain this industry to  my young female artists. And now I can just  give your book to them. And that’s obviously amazing feedback. And I love it. AW: I love that. That’s the ultimate compliment, I think, that the handlers are giving the book to their female pop stars. And I mean, ultimately, it’s not just that you’re influencing them, but you’re actually telling them to be more strategic and thinking longer term and harder and in a different way about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. Right? KL: Yeah, you know, it’s really up to them how to use the information, how they read it. And being not so self-congratulatory, they could just as easily use it to say, I need to learn how to adhere to one of these types of succeed, right? And that isn’t my intent. But like, let’s say that somebody changes their image 10% so that they can approximate one of these things and have a much wider audience than they would have otherwise, I guess it would be successful for her. Right? AW: And/or if she was more authentic? It sounds like you’re advocating for authenticity. Is that true? KL: Interesting. It’s almost like managed authenticity. I think there are things that are true about all of us in multiple contexts, right? So I might be one way as a professor, I might be another way with my family. I might be another way when I’m out with my oldest friends. And I might be another way when I’m at an academic conference, right? But there are some things about me that are going to be the same in all those contexts. And I think that when we talk about brands, what we want is that over-arching brand theme that is true about us or them in all contexts, and that way, they’re not caught in hypocritical tangles. They’re really their authentic selves. And we’re not catching them in contradictions because they’re being their authentic selves, but they’re not being their complete, vulnerable, authentic selves. Because I think for female pop star sustainability, I want them to have healthy lives with degrees of privacy and people taking care of the, People thinking about their well-being and not how much money they can make off of them before the windows slams shut on their career kind of thing. Does that make sense? AW: Absolutely. As you’re saying that, I’m just thinking this is great advice for any of us. And your point about you being an academic and all the different circles that you navigate. I guess this is kind of the ultimate question in terms of communication and the way we represent ourselves. My question is, why do women seem to repeatedly get framed in the same way? I’m thinking about the temptress archetype in particular – again and again be it as you’ve very eloquently described with a female pop star or in our quote unquote real life. KL: What’s been interesting is the conversations I’ve had with other scholars over the years about this,  people whose work I really like. Yeah, they pointed out to me that your lifecycle model  has mythological origins, religious origins, these patterns that you’re seeing these types grow out of vast sociological dysfunction with regard to the way we see and process women, right. So I don’t think this is a music industry problem so much. I mean, that’s what I’ve chosen to focus on. But I think it’s just a representation of cultural dysfunction,  as it manifests in industry. AW: Wow. It’s depressing, isn’t it? KL: I mean, it is. And it’s so horrifying that I just wanted to tell other people what I found, because I want people to be horrified by it. And I want them to destroy my model so that I can never write another edition of my book. I really want this to change. And I think there are all kinds of indicators now that have changed – more I would argue in film and television than in popular music just yet, but there are definitely rays of hope. Even watching female pleasure as opposed to female performance for the sake of men. A move away from very strict  male gaze terms to more empathetically creating and viewing women as they pursue their desires. AW: Well, thank you for taking a topic that I think some people can dismiss, because it’s pop star, right? It’s  pop culture, it’s so easily dismissed, but it’s actually really, really important. It’s a really important node in the cultural diamond. So I want to thank you. Is there anything else you want to add before we move on to the five rapid fire questions? KL: One thing related to what you just said. I think you’re absolutely right. When a woman musician sells or streams or becomes culturally persuasive enough, we designate her a female pop star, right? Her genre disappears, right? This doesn’t happen to men. So one of the reasons culturally, she ends up a female pop star is that this disempowers her because it makes her sound frivolous or artificial or fleeting, right? Just what you said about pop culture. Like, we dismiss that, right? A rock star is different, but we don’t see many women rock stars at the top of the industry. AW: Oh, gosh, my blood is boiling. Alright, let’s move on to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Are you ready? KL: I think so. AW: Number one, what are your pet peeves? KL: My pet peeve is people who cut in line. I’m like, we’re all busy. We all have things to do. This cutting in line thing – that’s entitlement. It’s like, my time is more important than yours. I’m just going to get ahead of you. I hate that. AW: I’m with you on that. Okay, second question. What type of learner are you? KL: I think it depends on what I’m learning. I don’t know how to answer that question. I think I use all of this ways to learn. AW: Well, most of us do. Yeah. Okay. Question number three, introvert or extrovert? KL: Ambivert. I trained my introverted self to be an extrovert to do the things that I’ve wanted to do professionally, AW: then you’ve done very well. I saw you on stage. In your TEDx talk, KL: that was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. AW: You’d never know. And again, I’m going to leave a link for that. Okay, question number four – communication preference for personal conversations? KL: Depends on the context, right? Like, if I’m confirming a reservation? Text, we don’t need to talk about that. If we’re talking about something of substance, I would much rather see you or talk to you on the phone. AW: Okay, last question. Is there a podcast, a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending the most? KL: No.  It’s rapid fire, right? I just I consume so much. I don’t necessarily go back to the same things again and again. I think I consume just in a different and more organic way. AW: Got it. All right. Thank you so much for sharing all your research and your knowledge about female pop stars. KL: Yeah, well, I really appreciate your interest in this work too. Thank you so much.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com         ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #55 ARCHETYPES & FEMALE POP STARS with Professor Kristin Lieb appeared first on Talk About Talk.

ARCHETYPES are shared, universal patterns that help us understand characters and stories.  We employ archetypes in both our consumption (of stories, movies, music) and our communication – of ourselves, our experiences and our brands. Learn about the stages in the hero’s journey and 12 common archetypes, one of which may describe you and/or your brand. This is episode one of a two-part podcast series on ARCHETYPES.   REFERENCES BOOKS  “Collected Works of C.G. Jung, Volume 9 (Part 1): Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious” – https://amzn.to/3icyIns “The hero and the outlaw: Building extraordinary brands through the power of archetypes” Margaret Mark & & Carol Pearson –  https://amzn.to/38bkU7V “Awakening the Heroes Within” Carol Pearson – https://amzn.to/31sOpkg       ARCHETYPES *** 12 Common Archetypes Summary (one-pager PDF): https://talkabouttalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/ARCHETYPES-Summary.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes Joseph Campbell & The Hero’s Journey Summary – http://www.movieoutline.com/articles/the-hero-journey-mythic-structure-of-joseph-campbell-monomyth.html Star Wars – https://thescriptlab.com/features/screenwriting-101/12309-the-heros-journey-breakdown-star-wars/ Mothers in Disney movies –https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roles_of_mothers_in_Disney_media# 6 well-known stories – https://venngage.com/blog/heros-journey/ Ernest Dichter & brand archetypes – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Dichter Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki “Storytelling” with Harvard professor & author Jerry Zaltman – https://talkabouttalk.com/11-storytelling-with-harvard-professor-author-jerry-zaltman/ Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com   THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON!     Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com                               ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #54 ARCHETYPES with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you leading a virtual team? Learn how to lead a virtual team and excel in a crisis. During a crisis, everything is magnified, including leadership skills.  Executive coach Heather Stark shares her “5C’s of creating a virtual culture” framework to help leaders navigate and excel in the new normal. (This is part 2 of a two-part series on LEADERSHIP with Heather Stark. See also episode #52: “Communication Skills of Effective Leaders”)  REFERENCES & LINKS Heather Stark Heather Stark & Stark Coaching Email – heather@heatherstarkcoaching.com LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherestark/ Crisis Management Tylenol poisonings Crisis management – http://www.ou.edu/deptcomm/dodjcc/groups/02C2/Johnson%20&%20Johnson.htm Institute for P.R. – https://instituteforpr.org/crisis-management-and-communications/ HBR podcast – https://hbr.org/podcast/2020/04/managing-crises-in-the-short-and-long-term HBR – https://hbr.org/2020/03/are-you-leading-through-the-crisis-or-managing-the-response Forbes – https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2020/04/16/the-role-of-business-leadership-in-times-of-crisis/ Leading A Virtual Team Academy of Management Perspectives – http://public.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/faculty/malhotra/leadingvtsamp.pdf HBR – 5 Qs that newly virtual leaders should ask – https://hbr.org/2020/05/5-questions-that-newly-virtual-leaders-should-ask-themselves HBR: https://hbr.org/2013/06/making-virtual-teams-work-ten Talk About Talk & Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free Communication Coaching via the weekly Email Blog – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Website – https://talkabouttalk.com FB Group – https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Dr. Andrea Wojnicki: Thank you very much, Heather, for joining us to talk about leading in a crisis and managing a virtual team. Heather Stark: Thanks for having me, Andrea. I’m happy to be here today. AW:  So I’m really curious to hear your personal and professional experience that you had in the first few weeks of COVID and physical distancing. Can you share that with the listeners? HS: Yes. I remember especially what happened before the official directive came out to physically distance and close nonessential businesses – there was a lot of stress as leaders were trying to figure out what was the right thing to do for their organizations. Compounding this, Coronavirus hit the west coast before the east coast. Leaders were really struggling with, what do I do? Am I going to have to tell my employees that they’re staying home? Do I lay off employees? And so, for those first few weeks, my learning curve went way up. Because I was on the phone with clients that I would normally talk with once a week, up to three times a week, trying to help them figure out: How do I communicate this? What do I say to people? What’s the message that I’ve giving? Should I tell people that I’m worried? How much do I share?  This was a really strong example of leading without a playbook. Nobody knew. And we’ve all heard about ways that you’re supposed to manage during a crisis.  You learn as much as you can. You put together a task force and a communication strategy. In this case you get medical advice, you get all different types of advice to understand how to move forward. But everything was unfolding in such a surreal way, in many ways… AW:  and fast, right? HS: Fast, you know. Every day something was changing. And that processing speed that was needed, that agility that was needed, and the ability to be kind of vulnerable and be collaborative through this process – and importantly involving people in the organization at all different levels. One of the challenges when people started moving to  remote work was getting everybody up to speed and equipping people to work from home. Logistics around security, equipment –  A lot of people have laptops, a lot of people have devices to work remotely, but administrative staff didn’t. They had a fixed desk with a desktop often, and in some cases those are  people that are really needed to interface with clients – even if it’s remote. So getting them up to speed, getting them able to work remotely, figuring out: does somebody need to stay in the office? If they do, how do you protect them? How do you do that and what if they get sick…? How do you run your business with no one in the office? So all of the different pieces, the emotion that was going into decisions, was a very different way than people were used to leading. It wasn’t all strategic and there weren’t steps to follow. There wasn’t a playbook. And so making it up on the fly, being agile, listening to people, collaborating with people, and being willing to make some mistakes, and then go, Hey, you know what, I didn’t roll this part out quite right. Okay. But this is what we’re doing now.   I think it’s been very humbling for a lot of leaders. And there’s been a lot of growth over the last little while and I’ve been super proud to see how quickly they’ve done it. I know the clients that I work with, they’ve adopted things that would have taken months, years to get through their organization, in a couple of days, a couple of weeks. I’ve been very, very impressed with the agility of leaders. AW:  It sounds like a lot of the skills that are really important in successfully navigating through this crisis are very similar to the skills that we talked about in the previous episode about leadership and communication, right? It’s just that they’re amplified. It’s so intense. HS: Yes.  I think that one of the things that I’ve learned, and I think a lot of leaders have learned is that if there are cracks, they are magnified now. So if there are challenges in your organization, this is a way for them to be magnified. And if there were people that were feeling a little disconnected – I talked before about how each individual has their individual culture. They bring that to the organization. If people are working on their own remotely, and the leader doesn’t watch and try to build a little bit of cohesion and adapt how they’re  connecting people together, there is the danger that the employees will become silos of individuals disconnected from the organization. It takes confidence. It takes a lot of courage to be able to lead in a time like this, because everything is really amplified. They’re learning new skills. For example, A lot of leaders started doing videos as a way of getting a message to their whole team. They may not be comfortable doing videos, but they’ve learned that skill. They’re learning things like the nuances of Zoom such as looking up into the camera as opposed to down and learning all these different ways of communicating. So I think it’s been a steep learning curve. And it’s been really challenging. But a lot of leaders, I think, have really risen to the occasion. AW:  to your point about rising to the occasion, as you’re as you’re going through this list of experiences and the challenges. I’m feeling stress, like empathetic stress for these people. Especially when they’re working in a virtual team. It’s just so intense. And I guess one of the things that I’ve heard over and over again, is how important it is to celebrate the wins, right? HS: Oh, definitely. And that’s a huge way of connecting with your team to individuals. It is so important to not just be focussed on the doom and gloom, but to really be focused on how you’re moving forward. How you’re having those meaningful human moments with each other. Those informal water cooler moments. Celebrating birthdays. Celebrating something that’s gone well with your clients. I’ve been doing workshops with a lot with teams during this time. During those sessions I’ve introduced what I call the five C’s of developing a virtual team culture. And CELEBRATING is one of those. AW:  So you mentioned your five C’s framework, and I’d love you to take us through those. So there’s celebrating and what else is there? HS: CLARITY, it’s very, very important to clarify so that you’re communicating in a way that people understand and there’s a clear purpose. CONNECTION, creating a connection with individuals to the organization. People that are connected to the organization are more likely to be motivated to work. Creating a virtual team connection can be very challenging and requires intention.  COMMITMENT, making people feel that they’re just not a cog in the wheel  that’s helping things move forward, but that you actually are committed to the health of the individual, that you think they’re important to you as well. It’s the people first, who create the mission of the organization… it’s all part of moving the organization forward. It’s people who are going to be able to move the organization forward. And COMMUNICATION. When you’re talking about culture, as soon as you start talking about culture, the place I go to is communication. Because it permeates everything that we do. It is so important. And it’s sometimes easier to talk about developing communication norms than developing the right culture of an organization. Because if you get the communication part, right, you actually are developing the culture of the organization. So I think that that is very important. AW:  So we’ve got clarity, connection, commitment, celebration, and then communication. HS: Yeah AW:  this is this is a really amazing framework that leaders are going to find very helpful, in your experience with your clients and your I guess your observations of what’s going on in business. Is there one that kind of rises up as being a particular challenge these days? HS: So I think  starting with clarity is really important. At the beginning, you were just giving as much information as you could and keeping people up to date. And now, at this point, being really clear, reminding people: what’s the mission of the organization? What are the values of the organization? How do you want to work together as an organization?   what’s the structure, you’re going to put around things to help with uncertainty? How are you going to make things clear for people so that they understand what their goals are, what their accountability is in this, so that they feel that they are not lost? You’re giving them those touch points so they can understand what’s beyond this horizon? What are we working towards and clarify what they’re working on. AW:  I can see how that one would be the most challenging, because it’s almost like an oxymoron. We’re dealing with this moment of uncertainty, then even the directives that we’re getting from the agencies and the governments are inconsistent, right? We see the mayor doing one thing and the premier doing something else and people violating protocol and people instituting or recommending different protocols and it’s very confusing and until consistent directives are communicated from these regulators. How’s the CEO or leader in an organization supposed to do that. But I love your point of clarifying then what we are certain about, we are certain about, for example, our corporate mission, we are certain about our structure, right. So identifying, I guess, in highlighting what we are certain about. HS: I think it’s very important. And this speaks to commitment as well. Engaged employees are more productive employees. A lot of people have been asking me, how do I motivate employees? Because you had that peak where you’re really in that mode of high urgency, and then sort of drifting along, and now we’re going into the re-entry for some organizations. And while some people are going to be working from home still for quite a while to come, others are going in because they’re essential to help your organization move forward. And so how do you get that commitment? How do you make people feel that they’re important? And so listening to the employees, making them feel like you’re committed to their well-being, setting some boundaries for your employees, helping them to have a structure even by just having a schedule, having predictability whenever possible is really important. And that’s an important commitment that you can make. AW:  So I have a really specific question related to that, that I’m curious about your take on. So structure and like a schedule, rituals that the organization is going to enable and reinforce, are, I guess, really important for us – both in terms of productivity, and even just in terms of our psychology and staying motivated, right?  However, that said, there are parents at home right now, particularly those with young kids who are basically their child’s teacher during the day. And if the organization is saying, you’re now expected to be available, between nine and five, they have to be on. So have you heard stories like this about it being particularly challenging to I guess engage your workforce where there’s diverse family situations and home situations going on? HS: Yeah, and I think that’s all about listening with empathy. There’s a lot of organizations that are doing these pulses, these anonymous pulses, to see how everybody’s coping. That’s great but When you do that you don’t actually find out what is happening at the individual level with people in your organization. And people might be afraid to speak up.  Say for example you have a Monday morning get-together where it’s a touch base, and people can kind of have a coffee chat with each other, or maybe do that on a Friday. It’s really important to have those touch points, but people probably aren’t going to be sharing in that large group that they’re struggling …  They may not feel comfortable saying right now, I actually have a two year old that’s sitting on my lap and I have to go change a diaper. Or I’ve got a 13 year old that’s having trouble following along with their zoom lesson in school and I have to go police that and make sure that they’re not watching videos instead of doing their schoolwork. It’s these kinds of challenges that can be really, really draining for people. And it’s happening, although both men and women are impacted, on the whole more women than men are taking on more this burden. I’ve had conversations with people, where a child was crawling all over someone, so this is something where empathy comes in. And that commitment to the people in the organization is super important when you’re dealing with a virtual team and mixed teams. It’s been announced that there won’t be summer camps either. So what are employees that are dealing with the children going to be doing while they’re working at home? They’re having a lot of difficulty with the boundaries between home and work. For some parents hours for productivity have changed, there’s a lot of working from 6am to 10am. That means that you’re not working during the ‘mainstream’ hours of the day, the main work hours  quote, unquote, of the day and then maybe  starting up again when your child’s gone to bed. And so that flexibility is really important. I actually have been doing a lot of work with organizations to help them develop a communication playbook so that they can actually learn, do a survey to understand what are people’s needs. For example,  If I need to talk to you about something that’s a little bit more personal, how would you like me to do that? Would you like me to pick up the phone? Or would you like it to be by zoom or by FaceTime?   How are we going to communicate what your hours are to other people, as we move into a hybrid situation, where we’re going to have people that are continuing to work remotely and others that are in the office.  Some people are going to leave the experience of working from home saying I was not effective working from home, I don’t know how anybody can be effective working from home. Others are going to be like, wow, I was so effective working from home, I want to do this forever. AW:  Right. HS: And so you’re going to be coming into the situation now where people are going into re-entry. Okay, how do you balance this? How do you do fairness? How do you build trust, when some people are remote, and some people are working in the office? How do these things work? So this is where I’m doing a lot of work with clients around developing a communication playbook, which  will act as a guide for how to best communicate as a team and how you deal with challenges that occur within the team. AW:  So I heard in your answer there, there’s almost a hierarchy of really understanding the preferences. And the capabilities given their home situation of your employees. So you can get anonymous feedback, right? That’s kind of the first tier. The second tier would be some sort of group meeting and checking in could be the Monday morning zoom call or the Friday afternoon call. And then at the top level, you need one-on-one input and understanding from each of your staff members, I suppose about what’s going to work for them in terms of timing in terms of communication medium, and all of the preferences. And I guess this is an opportunity for a lot of organizations and leaders to really get to know the people that they’re employing – all of the virtual team members. Right? and, and to engage them to be more fully productive than they’ve ever been. HS: Yeah, because people if they are able to work in the way that is the most productive for them, they will be more productive. I think at the beginning was really difficult to do this. But now that we’re seeing  a lot of organizations are saying we’re not going back till the end of the year. We’re only going to have a skeleton staff. We’re going to be completely virtual forever. So there’s different levels within organizations. I think for most organizations, there’s going to end up being a combination. I think that there’s going to be a fundamental shift. AW:  Yeah. So I’m actually really thrilled about that, to be honest. I worked directly with a CEO a couple years ago, who was very against people working from home. She was managing an organization where I understand people needed to be there on at least a semi regular basis, but there was really no reason they couldn’t institute virtual team work. And now she’s working at home, and she’s seeing that you can still be productive, and I’m so thrilled for her staff. HS: Yeah, but this is what it took. Because I think for a lot of people, in the past there was this feeling that ‘working from home’ was  like taking the day off or taking it easy. Now for people that enjoyed working from home, they are saying no, I can actually be productive and work effectively from home and actually, from what I’ve seen, I think a lot of people have worked harder through this time than they normally would have. AW:  I’ve heard that too. HS: Things have changed.  People that have been wanting to work from home for a long time and felt that may be more productive without the commute, without having to work during specific set hours, they’re going to be more productive. And so in some ways it’s a gift to organizations also, even from the perspective of office space, organizations may need less space.  But I think in person meetings are still going to be important at some level, for connecting and contact when we’re able to go back to them, but a lot of people will be able to do their day-to-day work very effectively and very productively remotely. And  you know what? For the people that feed on other people, those people that need that in-person interaction with people, having the opportunity for them to be able to go into the office and be in person in the office, that’s fantastic. Everybody learns differently. Everybody communicates differently. Everybody works differently. So this is a real opportunity to maximize productivity, maximize motivation, and really get the best possible workforce that you can have. AW:  As you’re describing that I’m feeling. I’m forecasting that there’s going to be a bit of a shake up, of course there is but one of the shakeups will be there will be organizing Along this continuum of we’re going to go back to being face to face, we have to because of this, and then the hybrid that you’re talking about, which will probably be quite common. And then the other organizations that we’ve heard about in the news that are going to be almost 100%, virtual. And then you have the individuals that have preferences for based on their personal situation, and based on their communication preferences, and their work preferences. And I think there’s going to be a shake up where people are going to be like, Okay, if I can’t do this with this firm, I’m going to go to another firm, where this is how they operate. I love this virtual team culture. And ultimately, hopefully, the firms and the individuals can all be more productive. HS: Exactly. And most of my clients developed some sort of questionnaire over the last couple of weeks where they got feedback from their organization. How has this experience worked for you? Would you prefer to continue to work from home if that’s possible? If so, how many days per week? And so even asking questions of your organization, what are things that we started doing during this time that we should continue doing as an organization? You’re getting that feedback. This is such a gift to be able to get feedback from your organization. AW:  So you’re describing a format of questionnaire that I really like using the start, continue stop, what should we start doing? What should we stop doing? And what should we continue doing? And now it’d be a great time to take a pulse with that. And that leads me I guess, to the last question, which is, how will these skills of crisis management on behalf of leaders and particularly what’s been going on for the last couple months with COVID help managers ongoing in the quote unquote, new normal that we’ve started to describe here? HS: I think continue with the learning and the openness.   The agility that we’ve seen is a really important piece. We’re seeing organizations innovate at a really fast pace and make changes that they weren’t able to make before. And I really firmly believe that as you’re rebuilding, maintaining or shifting your culture, understanding how you’re going to communicate as a group is going to be a cornerstone of success and a way to do this is by developing a team Communication playbook. So you, as a leader, know what’s important and how to communicate to your organization as an entirety and also with the individuals on your team. That there’s a way of managing conflict, that there are some shared norms around assuming the best in people, especially if there’s a mixture of people that are virtual and non-virtual. If you’re not in a situation where you can tap somebody on the shoulder, just kind of acknowledge that, Hey, I know we kind of had a little bit of a disagreement, but we can move forward. Sometimes, when you’re in person, you can navigate things a little differently than you can when there’s a bit of physical distance between people. So really assuming the best in people. How it’s going to be fair, how you’re going to help people that are in situations that are a little bit more challenging than others. And also tapping into that empathy and that vulnerability as a leader so that you can share that, that you understand or want to understand what is challenging for me to and to celebrate with your team and not forget about that with the connection to celebrating making People feel the commitment to them. These things are all important things and moving forward in a way that allows people to connect, as opposed to just see each other on a screen. It’s about being more intentional than you were before. What you’re saying how you’re saying it. So assuming the best in each other, helping each other, to celebrate the things that are going well, help buoy people up and listen beyond the words. AW:  Very very well put, Heather.  I feel like we’ve come full circle now. It’s back to some of the leadership qualities and skills that you talked about in the first interview, right? And it’s amplified, based on this incredibly intense experience that we’ve all had. And hopefully we can use that as a catalyst to not only reinforce, but to grow our communication and our leadership skills. Thank you very much Heather! HS: Thank you very much Andrea.  This was a real pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai    THANKS for listening – and READING! Stay safe. And TALK SOON! Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2512948625658629/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #53 CRISIS LEADERSHIP & VIRTUAL TEAMS with Heather Stark appeared first on Talk About Talk.