Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

This week’s episode is an expansion to last week’s conversation with Dr. Noelle Santorelli about relational aggression, belonging vs. inclusion, and “mean mom groups.” The focus this week shifts from spotting unhealthy dynamics to the next (very hard) question: What should you do after you realize you’ve been excluded by the people you thought were your friends?Bestselling author Amy Weatherly returns with a mix of empathy and tough love, reminding us that adult friendship is rarely cut-and-dry. Sometimes the table truly only held four for that event. And sometimes, those people simply aren’t your people. Either way, Amy’s message is clear: you have more power than you think.Together, Amy and I unpack the gray areas of adult friendship and how popular online memes can be contradictory (“There's always room for everyone!” vs. “Protect your peace!”). We discuss why group-chasing usually backfires and how to build connection one brave invitation at a time.In this episode, we talk about:Why adult friendship isn’t “everyone gets invited” the way it is in childhoodThe difference between "a bad heart" and a bad momentHow labeling people as “mean” or “toxic” can keep you stuckWhy it’s usually better to look for a friend, not a groupHow confidence (and self-reflection) changes everythingThe difficult reality: rejection is part of making friendsBuilding your own “table” instead of trying to squeeze into someone else’sAmy: “The secret to being liked is to like other people.”Amy: “Friendship will favor those who are bold enough to be rejected.” Links Mentioned: Last week’s episode (#180) with Dr. Noelle Santorelli on relational aggression and navigating exclusionA version of the Ashley Tisdale story on Today.comNina’s prior episode (#86) featuring Amy + JessAmy's “go where the love is” friendship poem Nina referenced, which can be found on Amy and Jess's Facebook group, Sister I am With You.Dr. Janice McCabe in the NYT on "friendship markets"Meet Amy Weatherly:Amy Weatherly is the co-founder with Jess Johnston of the viral page all about friendship, Sister, I Am with You. They coauthored the new book, Here For It and the Wall Street Journal bestseller I’ll Be There (But I’ll Be Wearing Sweatpants) Find Sister I am With You on: Facebook, Instagram, and on their Website.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes!📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? **That’s probably here.**Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

This week I have a conversation with clinical psychologist Dr. Noelle Santorelli about belonging vs. (forced) inclusion, "mean mom" culture, and relational aggression. And guess what? I recorded this interview with Dr. Santorelli BEFORE the Ashley Tisdale “toxic mom group” article from The Cut was making its way around the internet.I had to re-record my intro to this episode because not addressing the article and the aftermath would have felt off considering our topic for this one. In our discussion, Dr. Noelle and I spoke about what’s really going on when adult friendships start to feel like middle school. We unpack the difference between actual cruelty versus simply not wanting to be friends anymore (those are not the same thing), and why covert behavior is so confusing and painful to experience.Dr. Noelle gives language to things many of us have felt but can’t quite name. She also offers some much-needed reminders to pause, regulate, and stop assuming every social slight has one clear explanation.We talk about:What relational aggression actually is and how it sometimes shows up quietlyBackhanded compliments, hot-and-cold behavior, gossip, exclusion, and “strategic withholding”The difference between being included and truly belonging (and why forced inclusion often backfires) Friendship love bombing and why we should slow down in new friendshipsOne line from this episode that really stuck with me:“Forced inclusion creates fragile belonging.”I also share a very real story about spiraling after getting no response in a group text—and how sometimes the answer isn’t “they’re being mean,” rather it's: “this wasn’t the right time, place, or audience.”My biggest takeaway: focus on patterns, not incidents, regulate before reacting, and ask yourself why you want into a group that might not actually feel safe or aligned.Links Mentioned:A version of the Ashley Tisdale story on Today.comDr. Santorelli's Mean Girl Mom Survival GuideJoin the Dear Nina Facebook GroupMeet Dr. Noelle Santorelli:If you’ve ever found yourself deep in the drama of Mean Girls or Mean Girls in Motherhood (aka Mean Girl Moms), you’ve probably come across Dr. Noelle Santorelli on Instagram. A licensed clinical psychologist, Dr. Santorelli has spent the past 14 years in private practice and holds a position of adjunct faculty at Emory School of Medicine in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences.In her practice, she specializes in working with high-achieving women who’ve experienced early trauma or grew up in dysfunctional, toxic family environments—often with emotionally immature or narcissistic parents. She also has deep expertise in relational aggression across the lifespan, helping women navigate covert bullying from friends, family, and even the workplace. She helps break down the complexities of relational aggression, Mean Girl culture, and how to protect your peace in a world full of social landmines. Find Dr. Santorelli on Instagram and TikTok at @drnoellesantorelliALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes!📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? **That’s probably here.**Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

For the first episode of 2026, I have my mom, Kathy Sackheim, in the studio for her 6th appearance on the podcast to help me answer a stack of listener questions straight from the Dear Nina inbox.We move quickly through a range of friendship dilemmas from listeners: milestone birthday expectationsuneven effortfriend group tensionan uncomfortable confrontationa group chat blowupreaching out after a long gap since the last hangoutand what to do when a friend’s choices leave you conflicted and/or burdened (We slightly disagreed about that last one!)My mom, at 80, brings decades of perspective and a refreshingly no-nonsense approach to friendship. We talk about being realistic without becoming resentful, staying nonjudgmental, knowing when to widen your circle instead of forcing a group dynamic to work, and why friends and romantic partners serve very different roles in our lives.This episode is thoughtful, candid, and practical—exactly what happens when I put a microphone in front of my mom and let her answer your questions honestly.PREVIOUS 5 EPISODES WITH MY MOM:Ep. #1. The Friend Who Will Only Text:Ep. #8. When Friends Ask Questions You Don’t Want to AnswerEp. #36. Widowhood and FriendshipEp. #50. How Friendships Change With Age, Overlooking Foibles, Dealing With Our Teens’ Friendships, and moreEp. #72. Grudges and Apologies in FriendshipsLINKED MENTIONED:Find the anonymous questions in the newsletter at dearnina.substack.comAsk an anonymous question The live episode in Chicago was Ep. #160Join the Dear Nina Facebook Group   ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes!📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? **That’s probably here.**Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

It’s the annual end-of-year wrap-up, and my assistant producer Rebekah Jacobs is back for a behind-the-scenes look at what landed with listeners in 2025 and why.The themes we keep coming back to on Dear Nina aren’t “college friends” or “mom friends” or “work friends.” It’s all of the above and more. The need to be chosen, to belong, to be wanted, and the sting when we don’t feel it—this is ageless and timeless.HIGHLIGHTS:We reveal the top 5 cities and top 5 counties where you’re listening to Dear Nina.The top 5 episodes of 2025 and why we think they resonated.We reflect on the hardest and easiest 2025 Friendship Challenges (which we’re officially retiring!)And we talk about our biggest moments of the year—including the Chicago live show—and what's coming up in 2026.LINKS MENTIONED:Episodes Highlighted as Top of 2025Ep. 143 — The Law of Rejection in Friendships (with Harlan Cohen)Ep. 146 — Tolerate Uncertainty & Stop the Overthinking Spiral (with Dr. Jackie Henry)Ep. 132 — The Four Types of Connection (with Dr. Adam Dorsay)Ep. 148 — Tricky Friendship Etiquette for the Modern Digital Age (with Daniel Post Senning of the Emily Post Institute)Ep. 151 — Myths Around Adult Friendships (with Jazzmyn Proctor of The Visibility Standard Podcast)Other Dear Nina Episodes MentionedEp. 160 — Live Show in Chicago (The final poem I read was from author Amy Weatherly of “Sister, I am With You.” It can be found on their Facebook page, here. You can also hear Amy and Jess on Dear Nina, episode #86.)Ep. 172 — What BEACHES Gets Right About FriendshipThe Dear Nina Friendship ChallengesThe 12 friendship challenges MEET REBEKAH JACOBS:Rebekah Jacobs is the assistant producer of Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship and a writing professor who lives in Bethesda, Maryland, with her husband and three kids.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina🎈 Celebrate your friend on the show by dedicating a week of episodes!📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? **That’s probably here.**Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

Finding Your People in College Takes Longer Than You Think. At some schools its even a structural problem. As students come home between semesters, some parents might be worried about kids who haven't "found their people" yet. But it's so normal for friendships to take time to form! And even when it feels like "everyone else has a group," those groups often continue to change. I spoke to Dr. Janice McCabe an associate professor of sociology at Dartmouth College, the President of the Sociology of Education Association, and the author of two books: Making, Keeping, and Losing Friends: How Campuses Shape College Students Networks and Connecting in College: How Friendship Networks Matter for Academic and Social Success, about why friendship feels easy for some students and painfully hard for others. We dig into the idea of friendship markets—when they’re open, when they’re closed, and how to recognize the difference. We also talk about why clinging to the first friends you meet can actually make things harder and why the structures a school puts in place (the way dorms are organized or the types of orientation activities offered) can make a big difference in those early months. We also discussed the three common friendship network styles Dr. McCabe highlights in her research.More than anything, this episode is a reminder that friendship is a process and that there is always another opportunity ahead to meet new people, even when it feels like everyone is settled in their groups.Links mentioned:Making, Keeping, and Losing Friends: How Campuses Shape College Students Networks Connecting in College: How Friendship Networks Matter for Academic and Social Success Episode #112: Navigating Friendships During College Admissions with guest Kate ProgerEpisode #115: "Use the Freshmen Energy Trick to Make New Friends as an Adult" Meet Dr. Janice McCabe:Dr. Janice McCabe is an associate professor of sociology and women’s, gender, and sexuality studies and the Allen House Professor at Dartmouth College. She teaches courses on the sociology of gender, youth, education, social problems, and research methods at Dartmouth. Dr. McCabe is the President of the Sociology of Education Association (SEA). Her books, Making, Keeping, and Losing Friends: How Campuses Shape College Students Networks (University of Chicago Press, 2025) and Connecting in College: How Friendship Networks Matter for Academic and Social Success (University of Chicago Press, 2016), focus on friendship networks and identities during college and into young adulthood. She is interested in how gender, race/ethnicity, and social class operate as social identities and how they shape social networks. Her research has been covered, among other places, in the Washington Post, Time magazine; NPR, New York Magazine, and the Boston Globe. Connect with Dr. McCabe on LinkedIn.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

This week’s episode is a bonus! I’m sharing a conversation from when I was a guest on Dr. Adam Dorsay’s podcast, SuperPsyched. I don’t usually repost my own guest interviews, but I’m starting to sprinkle them in the feed because when I’m not the host, different things come out. Different angles. Different stories. Perhaps an even more direct way to discuss making and keeping friends. This interview was one of my favorites!Dr. Adam Dorsay is a licensed psychologist and executive coach in Silicon Valley, and he’s also the author of the book, SuperPsyched. You’ll hear pretty quickly why I loved talking with him.In this conversation, we get into the real-life, practical stuff!THE HIGHLIGHTS:How to make plansNot chasing friend groupsThe power of phone callsTo tease or not to tease?The middle path between "breaking up" and staying friendsAssuming the bestMismatched energy in friendshipsWhat “reciprocity” does (and does not) meanWhat to do when a friend never asks about youThe mindset shift that makes friendship feel less exhausting and more empoweringLINKS MENTIONED:Dr. Adam's episode on Dear Nina where HE was the guest: Ep. #132: "The Four Types of Connection"Dr. Adam's book!The SuperPsyched PodcastMORE ABOUT DR. ADAM DORSAYDr. Adam Dorsay is a licensed psychologist and executive coach in Silicon Valley where he serves high-achieving adults (including professionals, executives, entrepreneurs, and professional athletes). Adam is the host SuperPsyched, an award-winning podcast with over 200 episodes available on all platforms. He has given two highly regarded TEDx Talks: one about men and their emotions and the other about friendship in adulthood and his book on the topic of the four ways people connect is available on October 1, 2024.Beyond his private practice, Adam is a resiliency expert who co-created an international program for Facebook’s Online Safety employees for several years. He now serves as the resiliency consultant to DigitalOcean and has frequent requests from the media for interviews. He has provided keynotes and trainings to multiple corporations and organizations, including Microsoft, Linkedin, and the California Psychological Association.He is happily married, the father of young boys, and he has a hypoallergenic 33-pound Australian Labradoodle therapy dog named Raffi, who lives at his home and works at his office.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

I’m finally tackling a topic I’ve been wanting to cover for a long time: how divorce affects our friendships. Today's episode addresses both sides of this question--whether you’re the one going through a divorce or you’re watching a friend go through it. Either way, the social fallout can feel confusing, lonely, and awkward.I’m joined by Hope Lutz Firsel, a women’s life coach who specializes in divorce. Hope has seen every version of this experience up close. She’s guided countless women through the emotional, logistical, and social upheaval of ending a marriage, and she’s been through it herself. Hope understands how divorce doesn’t just end a partnership—it shakes up an entire social world.In our conversation, we talk about the surprising grief that comes with losing not just a spouse but the life you imagined, the routines you relied on, and the community that once felt automatic. Hope explains why some friendships tighten instantly while others slip away, and how to tell the difference between a situational friendship and the kind that’s meant to evolve with you. We also get honest about why friends sometimes pull back and how to communicate what you actually need.If you’re navigating a divorce, if someone you love is, or if you simply want to be a steadier friend during someone else’s big life change, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and a grounded understanding of what this shift really feels like.MEET HOPE: Hope Lutz Firsel is a women’s life coach and divorce specialist who draws on her expertise in organizational change to help women navigate the emotional, financial, and logistical complexities of divorce—and rebuild their lives afterward with resilience, confidence, and grace.Having faced infertility, cancer, and divorce after an 18-year marriage, Hope brings deep empathy, clarity, and powerful mindset tools such as Rapid Resolution Therapy to help women rediscover their authentic selves and create fulfilling lives beyond divorce.Through her one-on-one coaching, group programs, workshops, and collaborations with family law professionals, Hope fosters safe, supportive spaces where women can heal, grow, and regain a sense of purpose. She frequently partners with divorce attorneys to educate and empower clients through webinars and community events.Based in Boca Raton, Florida, Hope works with clients nationwide and has helped countless women transform adversity into strength and self-assurance. Find Hope on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

The final friendship challenge of the year is to write one friend a real letter. This was inspired by the novel I'm currently reading and loving--The Correspondent by Virginia Evans.Yes, it can be typed and even sent via email. But this NOT a text saying, “I hope you’re well" or "I miss you."Write an honest, thoughtful note saying:Here’s why you matter to me. . . OrI keep thinking about the time you . . . My year was better because you . . . I’m grateful for the way you. . . This memory still sticks with me because . . . It can be one paragraph, but it should be from the heart. If you’ve been following the challenges, this is the perfect finale. If you’re new, it’s a surprisingly easy way to deepen one friendship right now. This challenge doesn’t require making plans, arranging childcare, or leaving the house. This is all about a few sincere sentences that could make someone’s entire year.I also did a super-speed recap of all eleven previous challenges. So if you missed a few, you’ll catch up in minutes. And you’ll hear why I'm retiring the challenges for next year. (Not the podcast, just the challenges.)Make sure to visit me and fellow Dear Nina listeners in the Facebook Group or on my Substack newsletter to let us know you completed the task.Mentioned in this episode:Find all previous Dear Nina Friendship Challenges here.The Correspondent by Virginia EvansFind me at the Dear Nina Facebook group to report on what you did this month to bring some joy to a friend!ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Ben Rein, neuroscientist and author of Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection. We discuss what friendship does to your brain and why loneliness is SO damaging over time. We cover why introverts still need connection (just in smaller “doses”), why ghosting and quiet quitting in friendships can land so harshly, what’s really behind jealousy when friends succeed, (plus how to override it), and the science of that instant “friendship chemistry” when you click with someone new.Dr. Rein also shares simple, practical ways to make others feel seen and ideas for being more intentional about your social life. This all for the sake of your mental and physical health. Don't miss this one!HIGHLIGHTS:Why all human brains—including introvert brains—need some social interaction, and how to figure out your “right dose.”How digital communication dulls empathy and makes ghosting and quiet quitting easier.Why being ignored or canceled on hits so hard at the neurological level.The real reason jealousy shows up between friends and how to override it.What’s happening in the brain when you instantly “click” with someone.How small, consistent social habits protect long-term physical and mental health.Simple behaviors that make you more likable and help others feel seen.Why repairing strained friendships is good for your well-being, not just your social life. LINKS:Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection by Dr. Ben ReinI found one extroversion/introversion scale from Psychology Today. Ben’s introvert–extrovert self-assessment can be found as a pdf of the audiobook wherever you get your audiobooks or inside the book. You can also enter your email address here on his site and receive a copy.Find Ben on Instagram and TikTok @dr.benrein and at many other places, all linked on his website, benrein.com. MEET DR. BEN REIN:Ben Rein, PhD is an award-winning neuroscientist, author, and science communicator. He serves as the Chief Science Officer of the Mind Science Foundation, an Adjunct Lecturer at Stanford University, and a Clinical Assistant Professor at SUNY Buffalo. He has published over 20 peer-reviewed papers on the neuroscience of social behavior, and is the author of Why Brains Need Friends: The Neuroscience of Social Connection. Rein also shares educational neuroscience videos on social media to an audience of more than 1 million followers, and has been featured on Entertainment Tonight, Good Morning America and 75+ podcasts including StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. His science communication efforts have been recognized with awards from the National Academies of Science, the Society for Neuroscience, and elsewhere.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!

The Real Work Behind Lifelong FriendshipThis week I’m joined by two women who accidentally went viral on social media, but they've been doing the real work of close friendship for over four decades. I'm a BIG fan and begged them to let me examine their friendship on the show. Meet Jenn Sherman (who you might know from Peloton) and Pam “Sunny” Sunshine who are the best friends behind the popular @sunnyandjenn accounts on TikTok and Instagram.Jenn and Pam's story is fun (truly wild TikTok origin included), but the real gold is how they’ve stayed close through many stages of life—college, moves, careers, parenting, vacations, losses, and now a shared business.If you’ve ever wondered why some friendships last and others quietly fade, this episode is packed with answers you can use with old friends and new friends alike.HIGHLIGHTS FROM OUR CONVERSATION:Why “luck” isn’t enough for close friendship — The role of effort, showing up, and consistency.Proximity matters — How living close (or “close enough”) keeps friendships alive. When making NEW friends, keep this in mind! Scheduling is everything — Coffee dates, beach days, girls’ trips: it's all about the calendar.The 200-hour rule — How friendships actually deepen over accumulated time.Cheering, not competing — Celebrating your friends' wins without jealousy.Handling conflict early — Sunny’s “lumpy rug” rule and why resentment ruins trust. Plus some other great "Sunnyisms."New friends later in life — Why it’s never too late for a deep connection.The viral TikTok moment — How a random street interview changed everything and a business was born.LINKS MENTIONED:Follow @sunnyandjenn on TikTok and Instagram Jenn on Peloton (if you’re a rider, you already know)Lindsay Pinchuk's Dear FoundHer community Sunny & Jenn's live show! Tickets for the December show in Aventura, Florida are here. The Beaches episode of Dear Nina where two psychology professors join me and producer, Rebekah Jacobs, to analyze CC Bloom and Hillary Whitney's friendship.MEET JENN SHERMAN AND PAM SUNSHINE:Sunny and Jenn are lifelong best friends turned content creators, sharing their journey with audiences on Instagram and TikTok. Friends for more than 40 years, they bring humor, honesty, and heart to everything they do — from wellness and midlife shifts to the everyday moments of friendship. Their platforms celebrate living authentically, laughing often, and reminding people that the best parts of life are meant to be shared.ALL THE DEAR NINA LINKS + CONTACT INFO📢 How to promote your service, business, or book on Dear Nina📱 Subscribe to my newsletter “Conversations About Friendship” on Substack❤️ Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, & the Dear Nina Facebook group📪 Ask an anonymous friendship question🔎 Want to work with me on your podcast, your friendships, or need another link? That’s probably here.Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!