#180 - Mean Mom Culture, Relational Aggression, and Belonging vs. Inclusion (with Dr. Noelle Santorelli)

This week I have a conversation with clinical psychologist Dr. Noelle Santorelli about belonging vs. (forced) inclusion, "mean mom" culture, and relational aggression. And guess what? I recorded this interview with Dr. Santorelli BEFORE the Ashley Tisdale “toxic mom group” article from The Cut was making its way around the internet.

I had to re-record my intro to this episode because not addressing the article and the aftermath would have felt off considering our topic for this one. 

In our discussion, Dr. Noelle and I spoke about what’s really going on when adult friendships start to feel like middle school. We unpack the difference between actual cruelty versus simply not wanting to be friends anymore (those are not the same thing), and why covert behavior is so confusing and painful to experience.

Dr. Noelle gives language to things many of us have felt but can’t quite name. She also offers some much-needed reminders to pause, regulate, and stop assuming every social slight has one clear explanation.

We talk about:

• What relational aggression actually is and how it sometimes shows up quietly
• Backhanded compliments, hot-and-cold behavior, gossip, exclusion, and “strategic withholding”
• The difference between being included and truly belonging (and why forced inclusion often backfires) 
• Friendship love bombing and why we should slow down in new friendships

One line from this episode that really stuck with me:

“Forced inclusion creates fragile belonging.”

I also share a very real story about spiraling after getting no response in a group text—and how sometimes the answer isn’t “they’re being mean,” rather it's: “this wasn’t the right time, place, or audience.”

My biggest takeaway: focus on patterns, not incidents, regulate before reacting, and ask yourself why you want into a group that might not actually feel safe or aligned.

Links Mentioned:

• A version of the Ashley Tisdale story on Today.com
• Dr. Santorelli's Mean Girl Mom Survival Guide
• Join the Dear Nina Facebook Group

Meet Dr. Noelle Santorelli:

If you’ve ever found yourself deep in the drama of Mean Girls or Mean Girls in Motherhood (aka Mean Girl Moms), you’ve probably come across Dr. Noelle Santorelli on Instagram. A licensed clinical psychologist, Dr. Santorelli has spent the past 14 years in private practice and holds a position of adjunct faculty at Emory School of Medicine in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences.

In her practice, she specializes in working with high-achieving women who’ve experienced early trauma or grew up in dysfunctional, toxic family environments—often with emotionally immature or narcissistic parents. She also has deep expertise in relational aggression across the lifespan, helping women navigate covert bullying from friends, family, and even the workplace. She helps break down the complexities of relational aggression, Mean Girl culture, and how to protect your peace in a world full of social landmines. 

Find Dr. Santorelli on Instagram and TikTok at @drnoellesantorelli

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Our sponsor this week is Esther Goldenberg, author of THE SONG OF THE BLUE BIRD, sold everywhere you love to buy books. Special thank you, as always, to my assistant producer, Rebekah Jacobs!