Discourse in Magic

You know him from his incredible Instagram presence – we’re super excited to have @JustJoshInMagic on the show this week. Josh became obsessed with magic as a teenager. It was an interest that started as a diversion from his rigorous training as a musician. But soon enough he had traded the saxophone for a deck of cards. As he entered college he could no longer afford buying magic and so began to create his own tricks – all of which were horrible. He would perform for kids at various daycares and preschools but realized he preferred the magic he did for his friends. He went to school at UCF which is the largest university in the United States. That enormous student body provided a great audience for his early efforts. Josh works as a professional animator and has balanced both of his passions in his life. He finds there is a lot of parallels between magic and animation. He has used Instagram to build a big audience. He started recording his tricks as a way to create magic that he had never seen before. The reaction was so strong that he was encouraged to create more and more. “It just started to evolve,” he says. “I’m just grateful that people have liked them.” Josh thinks that having a day job has been a huge benefit to his magic career. He has the luxury of creating magic just for the love of it. It has also allowed him to create authentic relationships in the magic community without worrying about the career aspect of it. Josh has a real obsession with money magic. Because it’s an everyday object that people are familiar with money magic tricks have a huge effect on an audience. The audience also thinks they know what a counterfeit bill would look like. The audience is sure that a real bill can’t be tampered with. That fact makes a money trick all the more amazing to audience. Using “real money” makes the magic all the more real. What do you want to tell the audience? Researching and crediting is so huge. Josh is working on a book about money magic and he has learned the importance of giving credit where credit is due. Learn your magical history What do you want to ask the audience? If you could do your favourite trick with a different medium what medium would you adapt it to? Who should we have on the podcast? Jeff Prace What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about how Josh was attracted to money as a medium for his magic. Tyler liked hearing about the crossover of magic and animation in Josh’s life. Josh liked the discussion about being true to yourself and doing things that you enjoy. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/justjoshinmagic/ http://www.justjoshinmagic.com/ http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/9420 https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/close-up-magic/just-joshin-book/

It’s episode 105 and time for another solo chat between Jonah and Tyler. It’s been a month since our heroes sat down for one of these. Jonah had a ton of show throughout March with the Toronto Magic Company. Newest Trick in the Book is now a weekly show every Tuesday which is something that Jonah is really happy about. He continues to work on his time machine phone bit and has an idea of incorporating a “magical” amulet in one of his routines. The Discourse in Magic T-shirt is now available. There are about 70 of them left and once they’re gone they’re gone for good. It’s the perfect attire for the upcoming Browser’s Magic Bash that starts April 21st. Browser’s is an incredible shop and an important part of the Discourse in Magic mythos. The boys are always legitimately amazed when they run into someone wearing the shirt. Ben Train recently lent the book Philosophy Bites to Jonah. Originally a podcast, the book features short words of wisdom from ancient and contemporary philosophers. It occurred to Jonah that something similar would be awesome for Discourse in Magic. There have been so many incredible magicians giving incredible lessons throughout the previous 105 episodes. Jonah is stoked about the idea so message him if you like the idea. Tyler has started scripting his new show. It’s all about where he is in his life and why he has chosen to create a show at this point. The end point reveals that its not about what you say you are. It’s about what you do. What you choose to put into the world. Tyler didn’t want magic to define him but it ended up doing just that because he devoted so much time to it over a decade. Jonah has booked some incredible magicians for the future episodes of the podcast. He has a list of people that he wants to get on the show before it ends. Several of them have agreed to appear on the show in the coming months! Listener Quinn Winters (amazing name) sent in a question for. He noticed that both Jonah and Tyler have math backgrounds, as have many of the guests on the podcast. Quinn wonders why there seems to be such a natural connection between math and magic. Jonah thinks it’s because of the close relationship between math proofs and magic tricks. They both use things that you know to prove things that you didn’t know. The formula is the same. The difference is that one of the things along that chain in magic isn’t actually true. Figuring out math problems and magic tricks are very similar, especially for a young kid. The boys end the episode with some final thoughts.  Tyler encourages everyone listening to visit there local magic shop this week.  Jonah issues a challenge to the audience to build a magic prop from scratch this week.  Will you accept it?

It’s taken more than two years and over 100 episodes but we’ve finally done it.  We managed to convince one the biggest names in magic to join us for a feature length interview. Teller tells us about his early years performing magic with Penn Jillette and how, together, the built one of the most durable brands in live performance.  He also reveals the secret to succeeding on his TV show Fool Us and why he believes Discourse in Magic is the best podcast he’s ever listened to.  We can’t think of a better way to usher in spring 2018 then with this interview!

He’s an incredible magician, a close friend but most importantly he’s a listener to the podcast. Caleb Wiles is well known for his amazing stage performances and his appearance on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. As he started diving deeper into card magic he became totally obsessed. As his journey progressed he became known as the magic guy in his class and in his family. Soon enough he was performing on-stage. Caleb soon learned the importance of repetition. Doing a card trick 100 times will reveal new opportunities to change the trick. Imposing a structure on his magic is a key part of his creative process. Sometimes that structure can become the method itself, he says. He wants his moves to be absolutely perfect. He tries to create bullet-proof tricks. Caleb is a creator first and foremost. He doesn’t create magic for his audience. He only performs magic to prove that the methods he creates actually works. His magic is for himself. For many years he designed shows simply to fill the allotted time. A 45 minute set would be crammed with as many tricks as he could. He soon realized that performing a show like that was totally unfulfilling. He now tries to create magic that is awe-inspiring but still accessible to a general audience. After appearing on Penn and Teller in 2016 he recently detailed the experience in a magic lecture. He got on the show after submitting a trick called 26 factorial. He got a call back but the producers wanted him to perform another trick they saw online. What do you want to tell the audience? Define a target. It could change but you need to have a target to aim at. What do you want to ask the audience? Why do you do magic? (Keeping in mind that any answer is the correct answer) What do you like about modern magic? The Jerx blog is a personal favourite of Caleb’s. What do you hate? Magicians destroying relationships over a few thousand dollars. Who should we have on the podcast? Tiger Wilson Brent Braun What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler loved it when Caleb compared professional wrestling and magic. Jonah loved hearing about how Caleb truly loves creating magic. Caleb reemphasized that inspiration comes from creating on a regular basis. Plugs http://calebwiles.com/ https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magician/Caleb-Wiles/

Paul Vigil has burst out of his native Salt Lake City taking his magic to TV and the Las Vegas Stage. He has appeared on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us twice. He trained with Johnny Thompson and worked as a street performer for years – slowly honing his skills. In his early 20’s he was only interested in performing magic for himself. He grew to understand the importance of developing an act that appealed to audiences. Paul has designed some really impressive stage shows. His goal is to challenge his audience but also to leave them satisfied. He likes to start his shows as big as possible to prove to the audience that he can do what he says he can do. On top of that, he wants to instill a belief in the audience that they can examine anything they want on stage. Paul has a powerful interest in ethnopharmocology. He wondered where magic came from in primitive ancient societies. He came to believe in the theories of R. Gordon Wasson. He pointed out that ancient societies flourished in locations on the planet where there was access to psychoactive compounds. Those plants in turn gave rise to shamanism – an ancient form of magic. Those ancient ways of understanding the world didn’t survive in modern societies. Paul was one of the earliest magicians to appear on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us. He was asked to audition along with most of the magicians in Las Vegas for the shows pilot. He had to show his effects three times that day but made it onto program. What was your favourite part of the show? Tyler loved hearing about the role of psychoactive substances ion culture Jonah loved hearing about the impossibility of world around us. So happy that Discourse in Magic is out there spreading the love of the magic. Who should we have on the show? Mike Piciata Ed Kwan Plugs Classic Fantastic Book Instagram

We’re have a really special guest this week. He runs Ellusionist and made waves with his viral performance on Fool Us. Adam Wilber also produced the best selling trick pyro and we’re really excited to have him in the show. Wilber was six years old when he stole a prop from a friend for a trick. He mastered that trick, fooled his dad and never looked back.  Adam studied education in college and thought he was going to become a PE teacher.  He started supplementing his income as a walk-around magician but it took another decade before he managed to make a living at it. In his 30’s Adam decided to work with Ellusionist as a way to get a steady paycheck. He worked relentlessly with the company – up to 80 hours a week and was eventually appointed General Manager.  That includes overseeing the development of new effects and managing the day-to-day operation of the company. There has been a lot of debate about what effect YouTube and Instagram is having on the magic community. Adam thinks it’s all about who you’re learning from not where. Being taught good methods and good ethics are the cornerstones of good magic. It’s the same principals that guide his work at Ellusionist. You have to recognize that these technologies are not going anywhere. Question for the audience? What is the message that you want your audience to takeaway from your performance? What is your favourite thing about magic right now? The people. We have a unique and weird community along with some of the best people in the world. The good people in this community are some of the best Adam has ever met. What do you not like about magic right now? Adam always felt that his magic wasn’t being taken seriously enough. He wants to really affect peoples lives. Who should we have on the show? Bill Abbott Bill Malone What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah loved hating on the haters. There is no much positivity out there and it’s wrong to focus on the negative. Tyler loved hearing about the business model of Elluionist and about how you can learn from the greats simply by paying attention to their work. Adam’s wants everyone to remember one thing: Don’t be a dick! Plugs AdamWilber.com Ellusionist.com Instagram YouTube

Our guest this week is a brilliant mind in the magic community. He’s a magician, a priest and a raconteur – we’re really excited to have Jared Kopf. Every child is born with a sense of wonder that gradually dwindles. For Jared it never dwindled. He doesn’t remember a specific moment when he fell in love with the art form. But by the time he was a young kid he had become totally obsessed. By 14 he was making pretty good money doing walk-around magic in restaurants. By the time he returned to magic after university he was much more interested in the art of magic rather than just fooling people. Jared is deeply fascinated by how magic has informed human civilizations for millennia. One of his touchstones is the early work of sociology The Golden Bough which revealed how magic, religion and science were deeply intermingled in early human societies. Magic is a real phenomenon and he rejects the idea that it is reducible to simple deception. Not all magic is deception. Jared sees magic everywhere. It sounds crazy but he sees magic when he is paying for groceries with a debit card. That sense of wonderment permeates his work in film as well. He likes to achieve magical effects on camera but that doesn’t just mean using special effects. When you can make the viewer forget that they are watching a film – that’s a magic trick. Jared used to play comedy clubs quite a bit as a performer. But he’s not a comedian. There were only about three big laughs in his set. Eventually he stopped doing tricks and focused more on telling stories. It’s about putting the audience into a kind of trance. Magicians that are really popular can do that. All great artists are magicians but not all greats magicians are great artists. What do you want to tell our audience? Read as much as you possibly can about any subject that interests you. Be kind to people and know yourself. What do you want to ask our audience? Why do you want to fool people so badly? What do you like about magic right now? Jared enjoys seeing a performance by someone that is an expression of pure love like Teller’s Shadows. Who should we have on the show next? John Wilson What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the different parts of our world that are magical that don’t appear magical at first blush. Tyler enjoyed hearing that not all magicians are artists but all artists are magicians. Jared enjoyed talking about performing in a conversational style. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/jaredkopf/ https://www.facebook.com/jaredkopfmagic/

We made it! 100 episodes is a milestone we never expected to reach. Well, Jonah did. It’s why he started the numbering with 001. Even still, we’re super excited to have gotten this far. In this episode we reflect on how important the podcast has been on their own magic careers. “Everything that’s happened to me in magic over the last few years is because of the podcast,” Tyler says. One of the things that keeps this podcast is the constant feedback from people all over the world. It’s been incredibly satisfying to get messages from people that we would never expect to have found the show. Magic is booming right now and we’re honoured to be a small part of that boom. “There’s never been a better time to get into magic,” Jonah says. We’ve had some incredible episodes over the last 100 episodes. Jonah thinks that that Garrett Thomas episode is one of the stand episodes. It’s the one that he always recommends to first time listeners. There is so much in there that will make you totally rethink the way you do magic. Tyler loved having some of his close friends in the magic community on the podcast. Guys like Ben Train, Chris Mayhew, and Keith Brown have brought a lot to the show. At the risk of becoming sentimental we also have been reflecting on how the podcast has changed their status (somewhat) in the community. “I feel like I can actually offer help and advice now because I actually have something to draw from,” Jonah says. There have been a wide variety of personalities on this podcast but there have been some consistent themes have come up again and again. Magic doesn’t have to be everything is one of them. Tyler realized that he didn’t have to be the guy that worked constantly to make it. Magic will always be a part of his life but being a regular performer may not be the path that he takes. There have been plenty of ups and downs over the last two years. We’ve experienced nearly every possible technical hurdle including occasionally losing entire episodes. But we persevered largely because we enjoy doing this so much. Another big motivator has been the dream of interviewing some big guests. We may never get David Copperfield but we are going to keep at it until we get guests like Darwin Ortiz. In order to mark this occasion we’ve decided to offer some limited edition merchandise for fans of the podcast. There is definitely going to be a shirt and possibly a mug and (maybe) a pillow. We looked at a lot of different options and debated how much demand there is for this stuff. All the details  haven’t been confirmed yet but you can expect a full announcement in the coming weeks. We really appreciate all the support you’ve given us over the last 100 episodes. Thanks to everyone that has shared the podcast or talked about the podcast with other magicians. The show has seen incredible growth over the last few months and it’s all thanks to you!

We’ve been trying to get Michael Close on the show for a long time. You know him from his Workers project, his book Paradigm Shift and his work as a consulting producer on Fool Us. Michael was raised in Fort Wayne, Indiana and in that small town there was a magic shop. A guy named Dick Stoner ran that shop for many years. When Michael was about five years old he got a Sneaky Pete Magic Set. Eventually he realized that buying magic books was much more affordable than buying individual tricks. Michael says that Dick Stoner was a huge influence on his performance style and remains so to this day. Michael continued working as an amateur magician but it was while attending music school that everything changed. He heard from a friend that legendary magician Harry Riser had recently moved from Chicago to Indiana. Michael went to visit him and he his life was forever changed. “We hung out for years.” Michael says. “He became my mentor.” Michael worked as performing musician for several years. But he returned to magic in the early 1990’s. He started to work at a small magic club in a suburb of Indianapolis. His time at that club generated much of the material that later found it’s way into the Workers books which he released between 1990 and 1996. Later in the at decade he moved to Las Vegas and worked at Houdini’s Lounge where he performed magic and played the piano. He started working the lecture circuit and performed for many years. Michael thinks that many magicians will perform a trick without having any idea what the effect is. That’s because they too often jam several effects together into an incomprehensible mish-mash.  While working as a consulting producer on Fool Us he has seen dozens of submitted tricks that lack any coherence. Magicians need to script out their performance in his view. The first thing the Fool Us teams asks prospective magicians is for their script. If you want to try and get on to Fool Us Michael has some simple advice. First, you need an interesting effect. Second, you need an interesting presentation. You should ask yourself what is the five seconds of my effect that could be used as a promo? What will make people really sit up and take notice? A live audience is a captive audience. It’s difficult for them to get up and leave. But that’s not the case with a TV audience. They can leave in an instant. If you’re act is front loaded with patter or procedure you have to jettison that. Get to the effect right away. An interesting look or persona will help you to grab attention as well. Michael has just released two new e-books called The Paradigm Shift. The books are named after a move he developed that is detailed in the book. A pass is usually accomplished using you fingers. But in the Paradigm Shift everything is done using other body parts. The book combines text, pictures and video that you can download in a PDF format. What do you want to tell our audience? The magicians of the world need to realize that when they see a trick on TV it’s not yours. If it’s not for sale it’s not for you. Who should we have on the podcast? John Carney What do you want to ask our audience? Ask yourself why should anyone care? If you can’t answer that questions you need to rethink your act. What was your favourite part of the episode? Tyler liked hearing about how a trick needs to have a clear beginning middle or end. Jonah enjoyed Michael’s direction of how to create an act using scripting. Michael says the most important thing to understand what your definition of magic is. Connect https://www.michaelclose.com/

Mario Lopez was just a kid when a friend put a lit cigarette into his fist and made it disappear. He learned how it was done and from that moment on he was in love with magic. Mario moved to Granada in his native Spain when he was 18 where he trained with one of the countries top magicians. He was taught the art of performance and how to create the magical moment. But he didn’t teach young Luis any tricks specifically. It was all about how to perform on-stage. Mario is incredibly dramatic on-stage which he says is a product of his environment. Clowns, actors and musicians are everywhere in Granada and they have all had an impact on his magic. Mario says his magic allows him to share with his audience. It’s a form of communication. Magic is all about sharing his emotions with an audience. Mario loved Loonie Tunes cartoons growing up. Those cartoon are all about creating impossible moments on-screen which is something Mario tried to emulate. Other performers that inspire Mario included Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton. Mario believes that the magician is more important than the magic. Who are you really? If you let your true self shine through it will dictate your success. But too often people lack character and that’s why they are not engaging with an audience. When he first started he was very shy on stage. He was told repeatedly to talk louder and to look at his audience. Mario realized in the end that they were wrong. He became the shy g uy on stage. Play into your weaknesses. Mario’s Instagram presence is very unique. Unlike many other magicians he rarely uses cards. He shies away from card magic because he thinks it very difficult to be unique using that style of magic. He thinks its much more important to go to different places. Mining the same old material rarely creates something interesting. That said, Mario has still learned a tremendous amount watching other magicians on Instagram. There are many creative moments in a day, according to Mario. He allows himself to open to ideas at any time. Mario has a ton of weird objects on his table at home from chains to coins to cards. He is constantly playing with those objects. From that new ideas are constantly born. What do you want to tell the audience? Enjoy the process. Enjoy everything that has to do with magic. What do you want to ask the audience? Are you doing the magic that you love or not? What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about how Mario uses his face so expressively. Mario liked discussing the importance of using his eyes and face to communicate with the audience. Plugs Instagram