Discourse in Magic

Lloyd Barnes grandfather became a travelling magician shortly after the war. He developed many tricks over the years and passed those onto Lloyd. His focus was much more on sport as a teenager – especially boxing and gymnastics. His university career was less than successful – he was thrown out in his final year. But that ignited his interest in magic and soon he was selling tricks and illusions that he developed himself. He was broke and homeless for a time and slept on many friends and families couches over the next few years. Lloyd now works with Ellusionist. He scouts tricks from other performers and from submissions to the company. He helps to make them more practical and performable. When you send a trick to the company, he’s the guy that reads the email. The other part of his job is to shoot and edit the trailers for the new effects. Along with his own performing career that keeps him incredibly busy. Lloyd has to watch an enormous number of submitted tricks. As you can imagine, many of them are really bad.  But not only that. He gets people submitting tricks with very little research. He once had a young magician submit the double-lift to him as a new trick. He’s always impressed when he receives a trick that was recorded in front of a real audience. It shows that the magician worked out and thought about how the trick should be performed. When Lloyd is creating his own magic he takes a very strict approach. He doesn’t try to change a move just for the sake of changing it. There has to be a reason for doing it. It has to make the trick better. And there are some avenues to be explored within existing methods but they are pretty rare. Lloyd recently released an Instagram showing a bill melting through a card. It’s the perfect example of a visual trick. For him a visual trick isn’t just showing the audience something. It’s showing them the magic occur right in front of their eyes. Lloyd is passionate about creating visual magic. That passion was born from watching so many tricks that were identical. He wanted to create something different. He has tried hard to create tricks that were unique and unlike anything else out there. There is a big bone of contention between magicians about whether we are trying to trick people or to make them truly believe. Lloyd counts himself in the latter category. He wants to create CGI right in front of your face. Who should we have on the podcast Paul Harris What do you want to tell our audience? Don’t be afraid to perform with the audience. Don’t perform at them. Listen to them and work with them. Be authentic. What do you want to ask our audience? If there was one thing you’d want to see in the industry what would it be? What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the quantity of people submitting to Ellusionist and about the mistakes that are often made. Tyler liked hearing how Lloyd first got into magic and how that has shaped his career. Lloyd is looking forward to seeing if people accept the challenge of creating a new trick. Plugs Instagram

It’s episode 96 and time for another solo episode with Jonah and Tyler. We start the episode talking about what we should do to celebrate our upcoming 100th episode. We’ve had some pretty dumb ideas in the past – like listening to all 100 episodes in a row. We need your ideas on this one. Hit us up on Instagram! Tyler has an upcoming gig in February that he is really excited about. He is working at a bridal companies new facility in front of 800 people. Shout out to his brother-in-law for hooking that up! Jonah was at a summer camp convention which was super expensive. In the end not that many camps showed up to talk to him. On the brighter side Jonah connected with entrepreneur Noah Kagan. Noah wanted to learn magic and Jonah has been teaching him over Facetime. On top of being a magician to the rich and famous Jonah has also been performing a lot in and around Toronto. The Dream 100 is a list of your ideal clients that business gurus suggest you create. Jonah decided to create a list of the 100 guests he most wants on the show. It turned out that most of the people he came up with had already. But there were a few that haven’t. Tyler would love to have Neil Patrick Harris and Chris Pratt (because he did one trick one time). Jonah wants to get Juan Tamariz and Dani DaOrtiz and, of course, Penn and Teller. David Copperfield and Darwin Ortiz are also high up on that list. Jonah has been working on a trick that features a rotary phone. He calls himself from the future this made perfect sense at the time but now he wonders why a call from the future would be on a rotary phone. He is also in the middle of running a course called the Magicians Guide to Getting Gigs. He’s also working on another course that will help people to script their shows. MagiFest took place recently in Columbus, Ohio and Jonah was disappointed that he didn’t attend. David Williamson was in attendance and Jonah hopes that he was congratulated for his appearance on Discourse. The downloads for that episode were really high. Recently, we met up with a fan who came out to Toronto. We had some drinks, jammed a little and talked a lot about magic. We talked about making simple tricks play big and how to make a business out of the art. If you’re ever in Toronto be sure to look us up. We love meeting listeners of the podcast! Jonah asked Tyler what’s changed in the podcast over the last 96 episodes. Tyler thinks it’s become much more streamlined. The conversations feel a lot more comfortable and natural. The show is much more practical than it was at the start. Jonah agrees with that sentiment and adds that he loves hearing more about each of the guests lives. Jonah recently had an epiphany, recently, about his stage presence. He had been trying to take himself out of the magic while performing. But some prominent magicians told him that if it’s his show than he has to be part of the magic. As a wrap up question a viewer on Instagram asked if would ever want to start our own camp. Tyler said that he would rather die than attempt that.

He is Blue Crown Magic, he is Alex Pandrea. He first got into magic when he was five years old.  A clown came to his birthday party and did tricks like disappearing silk or sponge balls.  But his interest continued into young adulthood.  He grew up in New York City and it was through the local magic shops in Queens like Tannens that he discovered more magic.  He created some new effects as a teenager. That love of creation continued as he progressed to performing for and hanging out with other magicians.  His love of David Blaine was all encompassing – to the point that he brought his own version of the fire wall to school.  That trick got him suspended and a ton of detention.  When he got to college he married at 19 and that forced him to grow-up very quickly.  That led to him creating his own material and doing his own shows.  Alex believes that a magic career, like life, goes through stages. Alex started Blue Crown in 2011 when he was still in college.  He had literally one desk job in his life and he quickly decided he wanted to avoid a 9 to 5 at all costs.  Alex began to teach himself the skills he was going to need – from web design to photography.  He began producing his own videos after painstakingly teaching himself Final Cut Pro.  Alex thinks that he got in at exactly the right time.  When he started producing his own playing cards there were only a handful of companies doing the same thing.  His first deck design sold out in less than 20 minutes and that took Blue Crown to the next level. Alex has also built a sizable audience on YouTube.  All of his content is available for free.  He does that as a way to create a close relationship with his audience.  He believes the community will be much more willing to support new products from Blue Crown.  The most successful entrepreneurs are those who are not trying to monetize everything all the time.  Alex has applied that philosophy to Blue Crown. Alex divorced when he was just 27 years old.  He packed up his entire life into his career and decided to deliver a few lectures.  He had always wanted to get out of NYC and the lecture series started with five dates.  Over the last three years that number ballooned to 112 different cities.  This has been the third phase of his career.  Putting meaning into people’s lives by teaching them magic has been incredibly fulfilling for him. The internet is often a very unfriendly place.  From comment sections to Reddit there is an incredible amount of trash-talking.  But Alex feels that it can be a place to create community as well.  Having a positive group that helps each other to grow is his goal.  Every revolution has it’s good and bad parts. Alex is trying to steer this magical revolution towards more openness and inclusiveness. Who should we have on next? Peter Turner What do you want to tell our audience? Take it slower. A lot of people rush through learning, performing and life itself. Take a step back and think about things more clearly. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked learning about Alex’s experience learning how to create online content. Tyler enjoyed hearing about the process of getting good at creating good content. Alex wanted to emphasize the importance of never giving up and never letting up on that momentum. Plugs https://www.instagram.com/a.pandrea/?hl=en

We are here with a very special guest this week.  David Williamson is an incredible comedy magician and sleight-of-hand master.  David first fell in love with magic as a kid when he read a short story about Harry Houdini.  He learned the French Drop and his teacher said “maybe one day you’ll be a magician.”  He feels that he was bitten by the bug early and he had no other choice but to follow his passion. He was totally obsessed with it from a very early age.  Amateur Magicians Handbook was hugely important for David.  Harry Hay pointed out in that book that magic requires an audience to become real.  It’s an empty practice without someone else.  David was painfully shy.  But he forced himself to get up on open stages at bars at the age of 15. David’s stage style is very organic because he thinks he doesn’t really have an act.  It’s just attention seeking.  Get attention and keep their attention.  When someone looks at their watch in the audience it kills him.  He does a lot of corporate clients early on and he realized that focusing the attention on the people in the office was more important.  Eventually his act became more focused on the audience.  He doesn’t do a monologue.  He immediately starts audience interaction.  It’s play time. David thinks it’s very hard to give advice to up and coming magicians.  There are as many paths to success as there are magicians.  He once had an older magician tell him not to pursue his dream to be a professional.  But he totally ignored that advice.  When asked he tries to talk young people out of it.  If they don’t have the fortitude they will give up. Being overly picky about the audience isn’t necessary.  David just has one question: Are they human beings?  If so he can perform for them.  But he does have different styles for corporate clients or children.  David is known as being one of the funniest magicians performing.  But he insists that everyone has a sense of humour.  Magicians just need to figure out how to enhance their innate sense of humour.  You just have to commit to the gag.  Don’t wink at the audience.  The only way to get the genuine laugh is to forget about being the cool guy and committing to the gag. Turning a trick into a performance isn’t easy.  But every trick has a narrative unto itself.  Ideally, you can include a twist at the end.  Combining two effects can sometimes achieve that surprise.  But you have to ask yourself: “Why should people care?”  What is the emotional hook that will draw the audience in?  If you can touch them emotionally you will truly connect with your audience. What do you want to ask the question? Where did Mayer Effetz’s finger end up? What do you want to tell our audience? Stop doing a double-undercut.  David hates that move. Who should we have on the podcast? Richard McDougall Noel Britton What did you like about the episode? Tyler liked hearing that you always have to be a student. Jonah liked hearing about how David fell out of love with magic for a while but eventually reconnected it. David loved all the praise. Plugs? Circus 1903 in Las Vegas DavidWilliamson.com

Our guest this week came across our Instagram feed and we knew we had to have him on the podcast.  His work as a cardist is truly awe-inspiring.  John first got into magic after his family got him a magic kit when he was 8 years old.  He learned the boomerang card throw at age eleven and from that point on cardistry became his obsession.  Finding tricks was difficult as he fell into the generation where magic stores started to close but online stores were not yet common.  That forced him to develop his own magic and his own style. There is a debate in the community about whether being skillful with cards takes away from the magic.  John disagrees with that assessment.  He feels strongly that card flourishes adds a lot of value to his magical performances.  He understands the old thinking which states that being obviously skillful with the cards detracts from their magical quality.  Nevertheless, modern audiences already know that a magician is going to be good with a deck of cards. We are in this golden age of cardistry with incredible content being posted online.  Magic is all about creating a series of moments to achieve an incredible experience for the audience.  You have to think about how all those moments add-up to a great show.  Being creative in magic is all about thinking of the final trick and then developing the show backwards from there.  When it comes to cardistry, his inspiration comes from allowing the cards dance themselves.  What do the cards want to do?  Once he figures that out he starts to develop his moves. Then we asked him about releasing what he does. Specifically why he charges to release magic tricks, but not cardistry moves? He feels that charging for cardistry doesn’t feel right because so many of his moves were developed from others.  But John does charge for magic.  He does that because of the differences in the communities.  Caridstry has a culture of sharing which is much different than the magic community.  He also charges for his magic tricks because of the level of work that he puts into developing his magic as opposed to his card moves. The John Stessel Instagram presence is incredible. Tyler and Jonah are baffled about how he achieves his shots.  John says that his DSLR mount is his greatest secret and he is not going to reveal it to anyone.  But beyond the shots John has focussed on creating a great brand.  He created some videos with a full film crew.  They were super high-quality but they did 20-30% less in views than his stupid little personal videos.  He realized his audience loved the personal content.  So, he decided to focus much more on that kind of content. He feels strongly that building an online brand is critical to young magician’s careers.  He got more people stopping him on the street after appearing o What do you want to ask the audience? Can you describe the kind of brand can you build around yourself? What do you want to tell the audience? Ignore everyone’s opinions and work hard! Who should we invite onto the podcast? Frank Sung B Smith What did you like about the episode? Tyler liked hearing about John’s process for developing new material. Jonah really loved hearing about how John developed his online brand. John wanted to reemphasize that everything he does is intentional What do you want to plug? https://www.instagram.com/johnstessel/

Welcome everyone to Episode 92 – our first episode of 2018! We both had a good New Year’s Eve. We relaxed with friends, some hors d’oeuvres and champagne. Last New Year’s we challenged ourselves to come up with some magical resolutions. Jonah resolved to work more on scripting his magic performances in 2017 – something he managed to achieve. Tyler, meanwhile, can’t remember what his resolution was. Though, he may have promised himself that he was going to perform more. This year Jonah resolved to perform at least one show that he is truly happy with. When he performs now he is usually only happy with 60% of the show. Tyler agrees with that assessment. When he walks off stage he is rarely happy with his performance. In that vein Tyler resolved to create a one hour show in 2018. He wants to craft something that his scripted and story-boarded. Tyler thinks a year should be more than enough time to accomplish that. Recently Jonah had some listeners introduce themselves as “those old magicians you make fun of on the podcast.” Jonah wants to clarify that your age has nothing to do with their criticisms. Specifically, we don’t like it when people think that magic is a private social club and not an art form to be shared. Please don’t accuse us of being ageist! 2017 also marked a big milestone for us. Earlier in the year we tried to start the #DiscourseAt1000 hashtag which almost nobody used but us. Nevertheless, we managed to cross the 1000 followers mark on Instagram this year! Now we’re just hoping for the swipe up to listen to the episode function on Instagram. Next up: 10,000 followers! Five years ago Jonah wrote down a list of questions about the philosophy and practice of magic. On the last solo episode we talked about the first half of the list. Today we tackle the rest of the list. First off young Jonah asked himself the following: Does making a plot or purpose to magic add value to the effect or distract from the effect? Why would one happen and not the other? Tyler answers this by saying that the key is about the magicians intent. If you’re setting out to baffle your audience than a bare bones effect is the best way to accomplish that. But if you want to hit the audience on a more emotional level than a grand story might work better. Jonah agrees with that answer. Though, it might be more difficult to do magic without a big presentation. The next question asked: Are all impossible things equally impossible? Why are some more than others? Tyler answered quickly that all impossible things are equally impossible by definition. The amount of difficulty required in the audience members head is what’s important. Jonah thinks that there are levels of impossible. It’s more impossible to disappear a car then a coin. Tyler thinks that’s a logical impossibility. Next up: Does the audience’s prediction of the magical result before verifying it strengthen the effect or weaken it? Is surprising them a good idea? Tyler thinks that a surprise ending still has to make sense inside the logic of the story your trying to tell. Sometimes you want the audience to follow along the whole time. But there are other times when you want to throw a twist that the audience didn’t see coming. Jonah says that his favourite thing in magic is when the audience realizes whats about to happen moments before it occurs. Finally young Jonah asks: What is the claim of the magician? Are we claiming to have powers or just the ability to fool you? Tyler thinks that’s it’s often unclear about claims a magician is making. There isn’t always a claim being made. In his own magic he always makes it clear that magic isn’t real. Jonah says that he wants the audience to know that it’s not real but he wants it to feel real. He will use props like potions on stage to get the crowd into the illusion. He likes to find a way to show that the trick isn’t real without saying that it isn’t real. We have some big plans for 2018 including more big guests and some Discourse branded products. Thank you so much for being with us over the last year.

Felix Bodden has appeared on Fool Us and has created a really popular Instagram feed.  He first became interested in magic when he was eight years old in 2001 – the same year that the first Harry Potter movie came out.  But Felix became frustrated when he realized there was no such thing as real magic.  His Mom took pity on him and bought Felix his first magic kit.  When you’re a kid everything is magical. Felix has been one of the main proponents of the #Ihatecameratricks hashtag on Instagram.  He thinks there is a real problem of people using CGI effects and edits in online videos.  It’s hurting magic.  Posting illusions that are totally impossible to achieve in real life makes it very difficult for real magicians.  The hashtag is intended to let viewers know that the effects they are watching were not created using camera edits or animation. Felix started using Instagram in 2013 when the magic community on that platform was really small.  He got a lot of positive feedback from people like Jeremy Griffith which encouraged him to continue.  He likes to use Instagram as a catalogue of his tricks.  It helps him to visualize the material he has produced. After years in magic it’s hard to be fooled.  That true even with the huge influx of new magic on Instagram.  Felix searches hard for new tricks that stump him.  That recently occurred when he was given a sneak peek at a new card trick that left him baffled.  Felix believes that magic occurs when there is a real connection with the audience. There is a lot of debate right now about whether or not revealing secrets online is good or bad for the magical community.  Felix thinks there are good and bad things about that practice.  He says that revealing methods takes away from the awe of popular tricks.  That said, he likes when secrets are revealed in a tutorial, where the history of the trick is discussed along with the secret.  If you’re going to do it – do it right. Many of the people performing magic on social media are doing it wrong, in Felix’s opinion.  People look unprofessional with long or dirty nails, bad clothes and a lack of charisma.  But beyond appearance and comportment, people are making technical mistakes too.  Using unlicensed music that will get your video pulled or not incorporating real people are rookie mistakes. Felix recently appeared on Penn and Teller’s Fool Us and really enjoyed himself.  From the production crew to Penn and Teller themselves, everyone treated him with a lot of kindness.  The reaction to the piece that he performed was really positive.  He focussed more on the presentation that the trick itself.  Felix wanted to make sure that he overcame the language barrier.  But he made a small mistake while on stage but he was still quite happy with how it came out.  His purpose was not fool them.  It was to reach as wild an audience as possible. Felix lives and works in the Dominican Republic which, he says, is a difficult place to access good magic.  There are maybe ten good magicians in the whole country.  There are no magic shops and there is no way to learn magic without the internet.  Adding to the problem is the fact that the Dominican Republic is very religious.  And that sometimes means many people confuse magic with Satanism. What question do you want to ask our audience? Why is visual magic so important right now? What do you want to tell our audience? Just be happy.  If you don’t love what you are doing than you’re wasting your time. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about Felix using Instagram to document his own work for his own use. Tyler loved Felix’s introduction to magic story as a young kid who first saw Harry Potter. Felix really enjoyed meeting Jonah and Tyler Who should we have on the show next? Shin Lim What do you want to plug? Instagram Cortana trick In a flash

We’ve been trying to get Tony Chang on the podcast for a long time and it’s finally happened!  Jonah and Tony spent some time together and NYC recently.  But this is the first time we have had the chance to talk to him about his history.  Tony first fell in love with magic when he saw a clown magician as a kid.  He got curious and he went to the public library in Idaho, where he grew up, and found some books.  They were incredibly discouraging.  So he turned to some magic rooms on IRC in the early days of the internet.  He ordered a Hank Lee book and read it repeatedly.  His goal with magic is to create something incredible with imperfect means.  You can create an illusion using blunt mechanics to achieve something impossible. Tony has always worked at his magic to make it look perfect.  He once spent nine months trying to figure out the push-off double lift.  But he thinks that too many people work on improving on a popular move.  That is far to limiting.  You should always look at moves to learn the maneuver – so you know it’s possible.  That’s the only thing you should be learning from someone else. There was a point in Tony’s career when he would try to change a trick.  Trying to brute-force his way to a trick.  He had a very engineering perspective on learning new moves.  Now, he tries to focus on coming up with a unique approach to his tricks.  Achieving a really surreal effect is much more interesting to him. There is a huge glut of new magic on the market.  It’s really difficult to wade through the garbage.  But Tony says you learn more about magic by picking out what is wrong.  And it’s also about being a worker.  You always want to be a student and you always want to keep working.  That may be why magicians are so gullible for the latest and greatest trick. Tony work’s as an editor of TV commercials and he thinks that job and magic have a lot in common.  In ads you have to tell a story in 15 or 30 seconds.  It relies on editing to achieve its effect. What question do you want to ask our audience? Why are there so many versions of the double-lift? Who should we invite on the podcast? Noel Stanko What do you want to tell our audience? Stop learning magic by buying the latest trick.  Think about your magic seriously. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked the emphasis on making a trick as simple as possible. Tyler enjoyed hearing that Tony started by learning to palm because he didn’t know it was hard. Tony re-emphasized that it’s really important to continue learning. Plugs Be Kind Change with Theory 11 Cherry Control with Ricky Smith

Geraint Clark runs one of the most popular magic blogs on the web and we’re super excited to have him on the show this week.  His entrée into the magical was a unique one.  He was early for a job interview one day and wandered into a local bookshop.  The night before he had watched the British magician Dynamo on TV.  It just so happened that Nicholas Einhorn’s book The Practical Encyclopedia of Magic was being sold at the shop for a mere $8.  He bought it and learned an easy trick which he parlayed into impressing the boss at the job interview. Geraint completed a multimedia degree at University and learned the basics of web design and Photoshop.  He landed a job as  a marketer but continued doing magic at night.  Then he started doing some residencies and weddings but eventually grew to hate those kinds of gigs.  Chasing payments and working as a glorified babysitter soured him on that kind of magic.  Eventually, his work gravitated online and he started developing marketing plans and illusions for magicians. Geraint’s advice for a magician who wants to begin to sell illusions depends on what you want to accomplish.  Some people just want to make as much as possible.  But others want to be known and respected for creating quality magic.  Networking with the magic community to create something of value is hugely important.  But, he advises that once you conceive of a trick you should sit on it for a while.  Geraint has created tricks that he perfected over years before bringing to market. Geraint thinks that there is a problem with the flood of magic on the market.  You have to test these illusions in front of a real audience.  A lot of people damage their reputations by rushing a product out that isn’t ready.  People tend to get into magic they become obsessed with it and buy everything they can.  But as they get older they become much more discerning.  If you want to create a best-seller work out all the kinks for a long time before trying to sell it. What was your favourite part of the episode? Jonah liked hearing about the finer details about how something gets accepted on illusionist. Tyler loved the words of encouragement for young people to start performing the magic they know.  Don’t worry about buying the latest new thing Geraint liked hearing the Jonah and Tyler are putting value into their audience before they try and monetize the podcast. Who should be have on the podcast? Lloyd Barnes Gary Jones What do you want to ask our audience? Can you name your five core values? What do you want to tell our audience? Stop performing Omnideck.  The deck does not vanish! Plugs Instagram Blog

We are long overdue for a catch-up episode!  Tyler has been jamming a lot by himself over the last two months.  His landlord has been giving him nothing but grief and that’s been taking away from his magical mind.   He successfully performed at the Fern Resort and has continues to collect a Noah’s Ark of pets.  Jonah, meanwhile, has been getting a lot of shows for the Christmas season.  He is going to be doing several table shows, which he always enjoys.  Toronto Magic Company continues apace.  That has allowed Jonah to workshop several new effects.  He loves performing and has loved the recent episodes of the podcast, especially the Xavior Spade and Garrett Thomas episodes. Recently we asked our listeners to submit questions for us to answer.  One person asked us: Can magic exist without sleight-of-hand?  Tyler answered emphatically  ‘yes’ because not all tricks require sleights.  Jonah agreed with that answer.  It’s a reminder that there are many methods including mathematical and psychological.  If you’re struggling with technical moves you should remember that there are many other things you can pursue. We had another question from Joel Greenwich who recently released Catalyst, an amazing card colour change.  Joel asked: If magic is an art form and art is intended to inspire and challenge, what does magic challenge the audience to do?  We loved this question.  Tyler thinks that the focus of magic is to make people questions things.  What you want the audience to question is up to you.  Magic is a subjective thing and you can make people question whatever you want.  Jonah thinks that art is meant to make you reflect on the world.  It should affect the way the audience thinks about the world. About five years ago Jonah created a list of questions about magic that were puzzling him.  The first, in a rather lengthy list, was the following:  What is the base requirement to make and effect magical?  Jonah and Tyler struggled to come up with a proper formula for this.  Tyler thinks the audience should have an understanding of what should happen but the proof will be the opposite.  Jonah think it has to do with the confidence in the improbability.  It has to be impossible or highly improbable. The next questions Jonah asked himself all those years ago goes like this:  If everyone knows that it’s the magician causing the magic, is the magician restricted to openly saying he is the puppet master?  Why would people think otherwise?  Jonah and Tyler think the magician has to be the person responsible for the effect.  You can’t fool an audience into thinking this is just happening outside of the magician’s control. Next Jonah asks this question:  If everyone knows that the magician is causing the magic than why should people not feel deceived?  Tyler thinks that people can feel deceived but will not necessarily be made to feel stupid.  If the magician does it right they should feel enlightened and entertained not humiliated and deceived.  Jonah still struggles with this question.  He worries that there is always something inherently deceptive in magic.  It’s really hard to not make people feel stupid. Finally, young Jonah wanted an answer to the following: How is a magician different than a programmer?  Both are doing something that would have been impossible otherwise.  Tyler thinks that they aren’t different.  Both have structure and rules that are pliable.  The general public doesn’t understand it but they accept it.  Jonah thinks that a programmer isn’t trying to deceive.  The magician is intentionally trying to bewilder the audience. We love getting your questions so keep them coming for future episodes!