The Voices of War

Today, my guest is LTCOL Dave Grossman. He requires very little introduction, as I’m sure most of my audience will be intimately familiar with his books, most notably the one that has revolutionised the way we think and talk about combat. The book is of course ‘On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society’, which was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize; has been translated into multiple languages; is on the US Marine Corps Commandant’s Required Reading List; and is required reading at the FBI academy and numerous other academies and colleges around the world. He is now the director of the ‘Killology Research Group’ and is on the road almost 300 days a year, training elite military and law enforcement organisations worldwide about the reality of combat. During our chat, we discussed a range of topics, including Non-firers in combat and how we made killing a conditioned response How anonymity can enable violence and the importance of non-verbal communication The logic behind the term ‘killology’ What LTCOL Grossman means by the phrase ‘no pity party, no macho man’ Sleep deprivation and its effects on our societies The issue with high doses of caffeine in energy drinks  The impact of sleep deprivation on ethical decision making in soldiers and first responders Social blind spots and how they impact our decision making The blind spot of creating a generation desensitised to violence and war How medical technology decreases murder and death rate, and thereby hides an increase in violence How otherwise good people come to do bad things, particularly in war ‘Killing enabling factors’ and how they can lead to atrocities ‘The virus of violent crime’ and its implications for our future The need to understand causes of violence, not means to carry it out The power and danger of information Since I’ve barely scratched the surface of LTCOL Grossman’s extensive biography, you can find an extended version here. You can find a list of other books he has written over the years, including the two mentioned in our chat—'On Combat' and 'Assassination Generation'—here.

Today, I’m speaking with Dr Mike Martin and Dr Christopher Ankersen. I have spoken with Mike at the beginning of this crisis (link here) as well as a few months back (link here). Suffice to say that he is considered an expert on Afghanistan and is the author of the book ‘An Intimate War’, considered by many as the most authoritative book on the political, social and economic dynamics of Afghanistan. Dr Christopher Ankersen is an Associate Professor at the Centre for Global Affairs at NYU. Prior to joining NYU, he enjoyed a colourful and eclectic career which includes being a security adviser for the UN, as well as serving in the Canadian Armed Forces for more than a decade. Throughout his career he has taught at the London School of Economics, the London Centre for International Relations, King’s College London, Carleton University, and the Royal Military College of Canada. He has also lectured at staff colleges in Canada, Australia, and Denmark. A link to his full bio is here. Mike and Christopher join me on Saturday the 28th of August, just before 0500h Kabul time, to discuss the ongoing situation in Afghanistan and its implications for the region and the world.  You can find Mike's and Christopher's article titled 'The Taliban, not the West, won Afghanistan's technological war', here.

Today, I once again spoke with Hizbullah, an Afghan security analyst and journalist, who remains in Kabul. We recorded our first discussion on 17th of August, only a day after the Taliban took control of Kabul where we discussed how we got to where we are now (you can access that episode here). Today, we spoke about the current situation and what the future might hold for the people of Afghanistan.

Today, I spoke with Ehsaan who came to Australia in December 2013 as a refugee from Afghanistan. He worked as an interpreter first for the Americans, then the Dutch and finally for Australian forces from 2009- 2013, He was ultimately resettled to Australia with his family due to an increasing threat to his life. He joins me today to discuss the reality faced by many of those who have worked with Australians and other coalition forces over the past 20 years. Ehsaan is someone who has personally experienced the fear and uncertainty that many are going through in Afghanistan today. During our chat, I use only his first name and do not talk about where he is from directly, as he still has family on the ground, whose safety remains uncertain.    

This morning I spoke with Hizbullah Khan, a journalist and political analyst, who has been writing about the war and terrorism in Afghanistan since 2014. He has reported for outlets like the BBC World, The Independent, The Diplomat, The Globe Post and many other global publications. He joins me on the morning of 17th of August from Kabul, where it’s a few hours past midnight, to discuss the unfolding situation.

*** Before reading the rest of the show notes, keep in mind that, as at 21st of Nov, Kay and her team have successfully assisted over 3500 Afghan-Australian visa holders from Afghanistan. Keep this amazing feat in the back of your mind while your read the notes and listen to the episode.*** My guest today is Dr Kay Danes, OAM. She is the recipient of the Medal of the Order of Australia for her service to the international and Australian community in human rights & social justice.  Kay has a PhD (Law & Justice) and her thesis explored the evolving professionalisation of the Australian Humanitarian sector. She also holds a Masters degree (Human Rights), and varying professional qualifications in Business Administration, Security and Law. Her 25-year security and humanitarian career has spanned across Australian and foreign government departments, humanitarian, and private sector organisations in armed conflicts, disasters, and other complex emergencies. Kay is also extensively connected to the ADF. She is the spouse of an SAS Veteran who has served 43 years in the ADF/SOCOMD and was Regimental Sergeant Major of two Special Operations Task Group rotations in Afghanistan. More recently, Kay’s work in Afghanistan has been recognised by Australian and Foreign Officials as an integral part of a national debate on Australia’s commitment to Afghanistan.  Today she advocates for the 196 Australian Embassy staff seeking protection and evacuation from Kabul. Given the current situation in Afghanistan, hers is an important voice representing those who helped the Australian effort over the past 20 years. 

Today, I spoke with Dr Mike Martin about the current situation in Afghanistan. As there is a lot of international interest in the unfolding crisis, I am releasing the episode slightly ahead of my regular publishing cycle and only two hours since recording. You can hear Dr Mike’s full bio in our previous episode linked below as well as through his own website, which is also linked below. In short, Dr Mike has spent years studying Afghanistan, served there as a British Army Officer, did his PhD on British involvement in Helmand, is a fluent Pashto speaker and is the author of the book ‘An Intimate War’, considered by many Afghanistan experts as the most-authoritative book on the dynamics and true nature of conflict in this part of the world. You can listen to our previous episode here, find out more about Mike’s work here and follow his Twitter feed @ThreshedThought.    

My guest today is David Livingstone Smith, who is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of New England. He has authored nine books with his more recent titles focusing on dehumanisation, race, and propaganda. His 2011 ‘Less Than Human: Why We Demean, Enslave and Exterminate Others’ won the 2012 Anisfield-Wolf award for nonfiction. David’s most recent book ‘On Inhumanity: Dehumanization and How to Resist It’ was published by Oxford University Press in 2020, and his tenth book, ‘Making Monsters: The Uncanny Power of Dehumanization’ will be published by Harvard University Press later this year. David is an interdisciplinary scholar, whose publications are cited not only by other philosophers, but also by historians, legal scholars, psychologists, and anthropologists. He has been featured in prime-time television documentaries, is often interviewed and cited in the national and international media and was a guest at the G20 economic summit in 2012. As many listeners will know, David is a leading thinker in this field, and has influenced much of our understanding of dehumanisation. We had a wide-ranging discussion and covered topics such as: David’s motivation behind his research focus Race as a cultural construct The view one is ‘marinated’ in, is what one perceives as ‘real’ Different races vs. human variation Race vs. Ethnicity Assigning values to lives and the psychological cost of it Overcoming the resistance to killing in war Racilising and Dehumanisation as a protective mechanism in war The cost of desensitisation to killing Definition of dehumanisation Psychological, political and social dimensions of dehumanisation Why we’re all vulnerable to the process of dehumanisation Dehumanisation is not a choice, but something that happens to us The power of the environment and social forces The need to assist soldiers ‘cleanse’ after killing on battlefields The need to understand why atrocities in war occur The ‘Essence’ of being human ‘Making Monsters’ The need to face our ‘past’ to understand our ‘today’ If you've enjoyed this episode, I would appreciate it if you could share it and tag @thevoicesofwar so that I can say hello.

Shannon E French, Professor of Ethics, discusses the concept of the warrior code across cultures, collective responsibility toward warriors, war crimes, supreme emergency, sacrificing civilians, using technology to combat evil, and the physiology of snapping.

My guests today are Will Yates and Joe McCleary. Will is a freelance writer, documentary producer and investigative researcher for television, film and radio with more than 18 years’ experience producing factual programming for outlets such as The National Geographic, BBC and the History Channel. Throughout his career, he has spent many years investigating the war in Iraq and recently published his first book titled ‘War Trials: Investigation of a Soldier and the Trauma of Iraq’. The book is a true account of Joe’s time serving in Iraq as a British soldier in 2003 and his role in the tragic death of a 15-year-old Iraqi boy, which lead to multiple war crimes court cases of which he was ultimately cleared. Throughout the ordeal, Joe battled with severe mental health issues and has tried to take his own life numerous times. This book is the first time that a British soldier accused of war crimes in Iraq has opened up in an unguarded and in-depth manner. As a result, the book is a deeply moving account of the true nature of war and explores themes of military conduct and responsibilities of those serving in war zones. Will and Joe join me today to discuss the book as well as to dive deeper into some of the issues Joe’s war experience has brought to light. Some of the topics we covered are: How and why the book came about Details of the tragic incident Reality of soldiering in Basra during the first days of the invasion The importance of shedding light on soldiers’ experience in war Gradual desensitisation to human suffering Looting in Basra and second order effects of adaptability and initiative Life as an accused ‘war criminal’ and ensuing mental health challenges Investigations and the trial Life after the Army As you will hear, Joe’s descriptions of soldiering as well as mental health challenges he faced are very emotional and visceral. Hence, this episode may be quite disturbing to some listeners. Lastly, for my Australian audience, military and otherwise, if you or someone you know are suffering, there is help available. Below are some of the many agencies offering support. For my audience around the world, please look for help. Even if there are no services in your area, the internet has opened up many previously unavailable avenues. As Joe says in the episode, you are important, so please take the necessary first step and look out for yourself and each other.   All-hours Support Line (1800 628 036 / +612 9425 3878 if O/S)   1800 IMSICK (1800 624 608)   Defence Community Organisation (DCO) Defence Family Helpline 1800 624 608 http://www.defence.gov.au/dco/   Open Arms (VVCS) 1800 011 046 https://www.openarms.gov.au/   Lifeline 13 11 14 https://www.lifeline.org.au   Suicide Call back service 1300 659 467 https://www.suicidecallbackservice.org.au