A Rational Fear

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/If you want to support the podcast and take your car carbon neutral, with GoNeutral here: http://bit.ly/GoNeutralInterview: Adam BandtGeraldine QuinnLizzie HooLewis Hobbaand Dan IlicInside the Minister for Emissions Reductions office, everyday is 'opposite day.'As the saying goes:You've got to make emissions, to reduce emissions.You have to do something, by doing nothing.The only way to create emissions free hydrogen is by using greenhouse gas.The only way to encourage renewable energy is to defund renewable energy.We're living in very strange time. The rest of the world is aggressively moving to a carbon free future. China is set to decarbonise their economy by 2060. Next year at COP26 every country will be taking plans to go further, and ratchet up mechanisms for further emissions reductions, because the Paris agreement isn't going to cut it.Net 0 emissions by 2050 is no longer the big ambition, it's the status quo. A few countries will be going in hard to do even more. Leading, in other words.And when the world is doing this, where is that leaving Australia?Australia is the Shore School of the world. Outwardly rich, entitled, antagonistic, and going around spitting on poor people and taking photos of its penis on things to win points with mates, Saudi Arabia, and the USA.Instead of doing the work: transitioning the economy to a carbon free future.We're burning more gas - to lower emissions?Gaslighting figuratively and literally.DanThanks:Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round, Kate Holdsworth, Rupert Degas and David Bloustien.A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/GoNeutralhttp://bit.ly/GoNeutralIf you want to support the podcast and take your car carbon neutral, with here: On the podcast this we speak about Regular Government Gaslighting, and shareholder activism with Brynn O’Brien from the Australasian Centre for Corporate ResponsibilityAlso we have Veronica Milsom, who has a brand new podcast out, Zero Waste Baby. We also have TikTok wunderkind Blake Pavey who is coming for all our jobs — also Lewis Hobba and Dan Ilic.. Thanks:Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round, James Colley and David Bloustien.A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/This is A Rational Fear's new monthly podcast.It’s a long-form conversation with leaders in climate justice from around the world.So… I’m thrilled to give you the first episode of the .Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our GenerationUp first is the bloke who coined the phrase “greatest moral problem of our generation”, Kevin Rudd.We’re a couple of generations of PMs past that speech, and sadly the climate emergency still holds the title.Fellow Bertha Fellow, Linh Do, and I do a wrap of the month’s climate news, then we get to the interview.Kevin and I speak about climate change policy, good, bad, future, past and present. We also go deep on Rupert Murdoch, NBN, and media regulation. Kevin also has some great advice for leaders who want to work in the climate space.The Patreon version of this episode also has a conversation about off-shore detention and Kevin’s Manus Island solution.If you’re a follower of #Auspol or just want to understand where we’re at with climate policy in Australia, this is a super interesting interview.Cheers,Dan IlicCredits:Host: Dan IlicCo-host: Linh DoPost production: Jacob RoundResearch: Kara SchleglVoice Over: Robbie McGregorArtwork: Lauren GeaneyPatreon:⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜ 65.2%If you enjoy the podcast, chip in with Patreon. We’re at about 65.2% of covering the costs of making the show each week. Every little bit helps. You get to watch the live recording of the show on Thursday nights at 8pm, and access our Discord community – it’s kind of like a chat room where we bounce ideas around for the writing of the show throughout the week.Thanks:Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics.TRANSCRIPT FROM OTTER.AIKevin Rudd 0:00I'm getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and load Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting despite global warming, a rational fear is adding a little more hot air with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.This is called Don't be fried the heat waves and drought greatest mass extinction Morrow we're facing a manmade disaster podcast, climate criminalsshiana rationUnknown Speaker 0:38all of this with global warming and a lot of it's a hoax book right, a small podcast about generation.Unknown Speaker 0:46For short,Dan Ilic 0:47yes, welcome to the first gumpert brought to you by irrational fear. I'm Daniel H and co hosting up the top is Linda Gatlin.Linh Do 0:55JOHN, how are youDan Ilic 0:56now? Good dad. You're the first person to hear the new intro. What do you think? Have aLinh Do 1:00no pressure right greatest more podcast of our time none whatsoever. I'm ready to rock and roll.Dan Ilic 1:06I actually it's actually greatest moral podcast of our generation. I myself have been calling of our time for so long. But I have went back to check the original source text and it was generation.Linh Do 1:19Well as a millennial, my generation i thought was the only one that mattered. So time generation say same for me, it doesn't matter.Dan Ilic 1:27So the second Monday of each month, we'll be bringing you long form conversations with climate leaders from all around Australia and the world. Do you want us to talk to Lynn? I mean,Linh Do 1:35it feels like such an obvious pick to say Greta tune Berg, but I'm also super keen to hear about those people that have made the decision to say leave their jobs in the oil and gas industry. Like I think that is a real sort of moral and ethical dilemma.Dan Ilic 1:49Yeah, I can imagine if I was earning six figures in the oil and gas industry, I don't think I'd have to take a second before leaving those. Now Lynne and I are going to be talking about three stories. about climate change that piqued your interest this month. Let's start off with yulian what some what's kind of caught your eye this month?Linh Do 2:06Well, one of the things that's definitely caught my eyes, it's just all the temperature sort of record setting scenarios that are happening. I got to go to Antarctica last year and remember it being over 10 degrees when I was there, we just just felt like wild for the icy wild west did this last month we've seen la record its hottest day ever. clocking in at close to 49 degrees Celsius, which, for me feels like Mad Max has returned.Dan Ilic 2:33Well, it's funny to say Mad Max at a place called stunt ranch in the Santa Monica Mountains. It got up to 50 degrees Celsius 122 degrees Fahrenheit, which is crazy. I mean, it I mean, you wouldn't even have to pretend it was hot there like it was there. I think the problem with them those kinds of temperatures in LA there are so many celebrities who can't go outside in case their faces melt away. I think that's probably the biggest problem for those people. There.Linh Do 3:00makeup and hot weather just like things that are growing together.Dan Ilic 3:04One other interesting one I saw this week that I thought was really fascinating was to do with wind farms. Now, Lynn, what are some of the most common reasons why people fight against wind turbines in their neighborhood?Unknown Speaker 3:18Ah,Linh Do 3:19because it's ugly. It's either that they're super ugly or it's from an original twitcher. That is to say a bird watcher because they're killing all the birds. Yeah,Dan Ilic 3:27that's right. That's right bird strikes is a big deal with with wind farms. Donald Trump was right on wind farms when it comes to bird strikes. Birds get whacked pretty fast. The blades go past at about 240 kilometers an hour but some very clever Norwegian scientists have worked out that by painting just one of the blades black on a wind turbine they can cut bird strikes down by 70% 70%.Linh Do 3:54so impressive and so cool that the other two turbines are still why because you know that helps reflect the heat and absorption. Okay.Dan Ilic 4:02Yes, that's right. Well, what turbine lives matter? Is that something that's probably not saying don't worry about thoughLinh Do 4:08I think it's all turbines matter, otter matter, because renewable energy is the futureDan Ilic 4:13or turbines better. That's correct. And Lynn, The Kids Are All Right.Linh Do 4:18Well, I feel like they're doing a bit better than my millennial generation that I just talked about before. We also saw this last month a really cool sort of instance of first ever in Australia where a class action has been filed by some teenagers against the Australian Government hoping to put an injunction into an extension toDan Ilic 4:37coal mine. That's incredible. What is the chance that they can prevent this coal mine which I think they're talking about the Whitehaven coal mine in Canada, trying to get it off the minister's desk what's the chance I can get that injunction going?Linh Do 4:50I mean, it feels like an impossible and audacious task but we've seen really cool examples in the US and in like the Netherlands where young people, older people have been able to governments to court over climate change and have actually prevented coal mines from openingKevin Rudd 5:05to listening to the greatest moral podcast about generation.Dan Ilic 5:12Now to the interview, the first guest on the greatest moral podcast of our generation is former prime minister Kevin Rudd, who wants cold climate change, the greatest moral problem of our generation. It was a pretty interesting conversation about where we are and where we should be going in terms of climate change, and how we got here, and how hard it is to make big things happen in Parliament. There's also quite a bit of Murdoch bashing In this episode, I think he compares, meaning rupert murdoch to Gollum, so definitely worth listening out for. For me as a young person interested in politics, the Kevin oh seven election was remarkable, as it offered quite a stark contrast to john Howard. And he was kind of Kevin Rudd was kind of the first leader of a party to have a really aggressive approach to climate action. And I don't think anyone has dead sinceLinh Do 6:00I mean, I feel people have did and then ever has happened and people have again become really terrified of this irrational, slash, sometimes rational fear. And Kay Rob was actually one of the first politicians that I ever got to vote, not obviously directly for their parliamentary system. But when I came of age and got to, like go to the ballot for the first time, so it was exciting to actually have someone talk about climate change. And then, well, you know, history happened.Dan Ilic 6:26And now there are people coming up who are doing class actions who've never even heard of Kevin Rudd.Linh Do 6:31Yep. And they get to probably two election cycles.Dan Ilic 6:34Well, you know, something here is Kevin Rudd. God is itKevin Rudd 6:39today, good to be with you, Kevin. Oh, seven. I'm gearing up for Kevin 27.Dan Ilic 6:44The return the return,Kevin Rudd 6:47finally met Kevin 37. So by which stage I would only be at I thinkDan Ilic 6:52I look if it's Joe Biden, it's good enough for you?Kevin Rudd 6:54Well, I'm about to say I mean, I've just been my prime by then.Dan Ilic 6:58Now, Kevin to the verify your identity because it's 2020. And technology is so good these days and people listening to the podcast could think, you know, actually talking to a bot from Russia here. I've got 11 questions, just to verify your identity. And if you get eight of them correct, we can continue on with the interview. Not the problem. Great. Here we go. First question. True or false. Kevin Rudd once worked as a house cleaner for Laurie Oakes?Kevin Rudd 7:25Absolutely throughDan Ilic 7:27Congress, which coalition minister did Kevin Rudd once compared to being caught between a hound and a hydrant on greenhouse gas?Kevin Rudd 7:36That would have beenUnknown Speaker 7:40sort of Howard or AbbottDan Ilic 7:43Do you need a clue as to clue you were you were his counterpart when you Shadow Minister for Foreign Oh,Kevin Rudd 7:52okay. So it would have been doubling down on Kevin rods favorite swear words Ah, IfDan Ilic 8:05true or false fair shake of the source bottle was made up by Kevin Rudd.Kevin Rudd 8:10False who was a preexisting Queensland expression which I simply adapted for national political purposes.Dan Ilic 8:18According to AV essays Australia talks program, what percentage of Australians think that climate change is real and what real actionKevin Rudd 8:2784%Dan Ilic 8:28Oh, and what percentage of Australians think that politicians are out of touch with real Australians on climate change?Kevin Rudd 8:358.4%Dan Ilic 8:37actually, it's 84% the same amount. Now Kevin on a scale of one to 10 how responsible is Kevin rod for that 84%Kevin Rudd 8:51if one is on not responsible for anything, and 10 is on totally responsible for Everything I'd give myself of probably about a threeDan Ilic 9:06I actually actually have written here I would have accepted three to six so you're on the lower end of the scale well then you got that correct. Finished.Kevin Rudd 9:13Do I do the mandatory renewable energy target I did try twice to legislate the carbon price will give me in houses with solar panels.Dan Ilic 9:23What else am I supposed to do in three years guys? Finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once supported clean coal but now thinks there is a problem it's called finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once back carbon capture and storage that now thinksKevin Rudd 9:40carbon capture and storage the four associated technologies have lived yet to be fully proven.Dan Ilic 9:48If Kevin Rudd could have his time again he would rename the resource super profits tax whatKevin Rudd 9:54the screw you Rio Tex.Dan Ilic 9:57I also would have accepted the Aussie dividend The HSV grant and the birthright money pitKevin Rudd 10:03would have accepted the screw urea effects. But it's a blast indigenous cave sides that RioDan Ilic 10:09that Rio, Rio Tinto, of course. Now final question to verify your identity Kevin Rudd without using the word brown or green, Australia has lost a decade of climate action becauseUnknown Speaker 10:23becauseKevin Rudd 10:29Abba always put politics above policy and found some willing accomplices on the way through. Now, they just do have different coloration.Dan Ilic 10:45The maps here, yes, I can verify that we are indeed talking with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Thank you, Kevin. That was very nice of you.Kevin Rudd 10:55I am not a bot.Dan Ilic 10:57Not about not about you have a very better world. accent the first kind of way to kick off this This podcast is all about people who have been at the front of climate action and trying to implement climate action. I kinda want to take you back to the first day of the launch. Jessica Ross tweeted this on New Year's Eve 2019 2020 earlier this year, all of Australia was pretty much on fire and she tweeted is now the right time to share that when we moved into the lodge in 2007. The sole remaining disk in the DVD player was the great global warming swindle. Happy New Year. Do you remember that memory Did you watch it as a family?Kevin Rudd 11:38Though we just sort of had a jaw dropping moment as we discovered this thing. Whether that was the last thing that the the seal regime played or whether it was just a sticker brought up your nose? I'm not quite sure. Can you think it was telling the truth?Dan Ilic 11:54Can you remember saying it and what we think what did you think first thing when you when you saw that? disk in the display.Kevin Rudd 12:03Well, I think I thought about john Winston, you know what a waste is a guy who was in office for 12 years and purely within a conservative political paradigm. He couldn't should have seen it in his own political self interest to reach over and to take this ground from us. But he couldn't sum it up. Of course, at the last minute, you know, that PDF shergold then hit a prime minister's department convinced him to go to the oh seven election with an emissions trading scheme policy. But he taught wasn't in NAB. It certainly wasn't in it even though avid back to down at the time, but I think it is fairly to grasp its its capacity to sustain his own Prime Ministership. Instead, I was puzzled about your file against a man for who he is, and he Dig conservative belief structure, but I'm trying to operate within the grain of his own political survival sort of strategy, which is to say, Hmm, if I could do that I would broaden my tent and hold on for longer and keep bloody Castello away for another 46 years.Dan Ilic 13:17Do you ever, ever thinks how things might have played out differently had Castello rolled? power to that point?Kevin Rudd 13:26I've never been an alternative history guy, which is what if, what if, what if, what if life is complicated enough when you just do do do rather than have a whole bunch of you know, post facto reflections on what could have been? So you, you dealt the cards, you play with the cards that you dealt with, you make the best decisions possible and you played as hard as you can to get the results that you need. Sometimes it works, and sometimes you fall screaming under your face.Dan Ilic 13:58I'm gonna take you back to Your maiden speech in dynamite is a great line in there that I want to share to the audience. It says, I also believe the government should not turn in on themselves, but instead have a fundamental responsibility to pursue the public code internationally in the promotion of regional and global security, democracy and economic development and the protection of the planet. How do you feel about that statement now? And was it hard to live up to those ideals in your time in office?Kevin Rudd 14:28I've always had a view that, you know, politics has got to be about vision. And unless you are painting the vision, which that statement does, and you just parodied in my earlier remarks, that climate change the greatest moral challenge of our generation, unless you're actually putting that up there as the goalpost, you're never going to get there. Seriously. So if it's all about one little bit of incremental change after another, and everyone uncertain about what the end point is, well, guess what? Progress is going to be pretty marginal. So I have no problems with that the alternative is the nation has no vision it has no mission statement as a result, we just drift on an all the lead drift into oblivion include, including on climate,Dan Ilic 15:15what is the future of climate action for Australia?Unknown Speaker 15:19I thinkKevin Rudd 15:22number one is to deliver real political change to make it happen. And I hate to say this, but the current mob don't have it within their DNA to do it. And it's just the truth. If I thought that they could have done this Damascus road on this stuff, I wouldn't hold this view. So this mob have to have a wooden stake, whacked through their heart in terms of what is then done by way of substantive action My view for what it's worth is a, we need to move north further with the mandatory renewable energy target beyond 20. When I brought that in, they thought it was impossible, because then renewables contribution to total electricity supply was 4%. And it's now 20%. Legislation matters. So go north of that. Secondly, on the carbon price, I've always supported a floating carbon price to bring disciplines into the show. Thirdly, we'll be on the receiving end and we should also be on the exporting end of carbon tariffs. That is if there are freeloaders in the system internationally, and something the Morison government haven't worked out. Is there going to have carbon tariffs put on us by the Europeans? I think definitely And under Biden administration, probably possibly the Americans. And so that should be a third part of the the armory. And the fourth, of course, is to have genuinely ambitious set of national targets for us within the framework of the Paris treaty, Paris Agreement.Dan Ilic 17:18The era T is a bit of legislation that you help foster through. And it's one of the remaining bits of climate legislation that is quite effective. How was that ever at risk of disappearing? You know, when? In your time Did you ever see it as a vulnerable mechanism?Kevin Rudd 17:40Yeah, I mean, the organized lobby against us when we brought in the emrich was huge. You may recall the Senate vote was actually pretty tight. When you say we facilitated through or fostered it through that meant getting the numbers and it was hard. It was tough. Politics is a rough whole business for me and trying to do the right thing. And then the Tories on many occasions substance that tried to get it, tried to reduce it, tried to emasculate it and so it's always been under attack from various parts of the of the fossil fuel lobby in this country. So I think it's it's great as mortal danger was firstly, getting the numbers to get through because it was a parallel debate to the cprs. And the numbers would tight in both cases. And secondly, it came under again its second greatest threat in 20 1314 when Conan the Barbarian took over, aka Tony Abbott and and wanted to kill it. But again, he couldn't Marshal the numbers in the Senate. By the way, it's the only workhorse on climate change in this country. Everything else is sort of stuff and nonsense. But the real thing that's worked, I don't know directDan Ilic 18:54action in the green army. That's pretty fantastic. He exhaustsKevin Rudd 18:57the The The truth is, here we are in 2021 is working the mandatory renewable energy target. Plus if you like, you know, 20% of the housing stock getting subsidized solar panels, our work on on the installation of homes, frankly, despite the difficulties with that program, reduced energy demand, so demand side management solar panels in terms of the subsidies we put in there, but most critically, the driving factor was was the medic renewable energy target.Dan Ilic 19:37We kind of hear hear about the fossil fuel lobbyists and the lobbying that goes on in Parliament for you. How did that manifest on a daily basis? What does it actually look like when we hear you know, the fossil fuel lobby is is in force andKevin Rudd 19:51what it looks like is for example, when I was in Copenhagen, and and hadn't been to bed for two or three days and again, Heading the Copenhagen Accord, which, frankly, was the draft of what became the Paris Agreement, the Copenhagen Accord of 2009 became the Paris agreement of 2015. That's the reality because that's when we crossed the two degrees centigrade threshold through sheer you know, negotiating effort. So what does the carbon lobby look like? The carbon lobby looks like them being on the phone, to the likes of the Baba boys in the Labour Party, some of the factional chieftains from the right, who then get on the phone to the prime minister and say, mate, this is a disaster mate, you got to kill this maid you got to kill carbon pricing altogether, because Abbott's on the march and the industry is going nuts. That's otherwise called Mark arbib. And that's certainly the position I picked up from. Let's call it the the fringe dwellers of the Labour Party in the labor movement, who've always been pretty solid To the political and lobbying pressure of the carbon lobbyDan Ilic 21:04for you to push back on those folks, what does that look like from your perspective? Like how do you put your foot on the ground and push back upon those in your party who want to want to tear down what is really important, groundbreakingKevin Rudd 21:20legislation, my first response to our bid, which is probably why I lost him in terms of the future, the parliamentary leadership of the Labour Party, and therefore the Prime Ministership was when I just told him to bugger off. I remember this conversation very clearly just told him to get lost. Could you useDan Ilic 21:35the exact language?Kevin Rudd 21:37It started not with B. But I think it started with a letter several along in the alphabet from the four extra letters. And and I said, this is what we're committed to doing. We're going to do it. And then the range of political arguments so they throw against just why you can't do it. And then the second one, which was much harder was when Julia Gillard came in the office into sorry, Swami kirribilli in January and said, there's no way that I can support a double the solution based on the carbon pollution reduction scheme, the cprs, having by that stage been rejected by the Senate twice. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. And then third wave was when she and Wayne Swan teamed up to say that we had to, they wanted to abolish the cprs altogether. And I said no, because we can't get through the Senate. We'll defer it for two years. That was a decision that have been subsequently was leaked against me.Dan Ilic 22:45It's been said that that has been that decision was that you kicked it down the line and you know, really kicked into the grass as a low priority.Kevin Rudd 22:53Here is the reality is we couldn't get it through the Senate. So I deferred it two years from 2010 to 20 1213 from memory There was a reason because it was going to enter into the new Kyoto commitment period. So that's why we I did that. But that was my compromise position against the internal effectiveness of the carbon lobby, working on the likes of Gilad and Swan and RB have been the bubble boys who ultimately engineered the coup who wanted to kill it all together. And I remember those conversations very clearly.Dan Ilic 23:22It feels like probably the last 30 years that every leadership decision has almost been at the wheel of the fossil fuel industry. Is that an unfair statement to kind of make?Kevin Rudd 23:38Not really, I mean, I actually took them on on two fronts. One was the carbon price where I was defeated. And I took them on again on the results super profits tax, Emma's again defeated so the On both those scores, yes, they had the final cyber, they had a huge fight on the way through.Dan Ilic 24:05But do you think do you do you think that they are ultimately responsible for you being pulled out of office in the first place?Kevin Rudd 24:13I think they're one of the contributing lobbies. I mean, these things are never neat. You got a cocktail of Shakespearean political ambition, people who just want to get promoted, become Prime Minister and get a bigger ministerial job and a bigger kind of bigger briefcase, you get a gigantic briefcase when you become Prime Minister.Dan Ilic 24:29And now you don't actually use the ministers man is the prime minister. That's right. It's got super 10 topKevin Rudd 24:37jumbo size briefcase on the side has very important person. Yeah, right. So anyway, as you know, political ambition is writ large. So that's there. Everyone's ambitious in politics. Me too, can say that. You know, I'm sort of spring burden on these questions. But in case of knocking off the first time Prime Minister has he got individual political ambition, Gilad wanted to be in charge was prepared to throw anything and everything at it. Secondly, you've then got the Murdoch media who wanted to kill us by this stage, because we departed from what they would describe as an acceptable Blairite script. We're rolling out the National Broadband Network, we were determined to act on climate change. And the link between the carbon lobby in the big results companies in the Murdoch media is acute. Then thirdly, underpinning that you've got them the the big fossil fuel companies themselves.Dan Ilic 25:33At the time, I remember the cocktail hours in New York in 2010. And I was glued to my browser. at one o'clock in the morning reading what was happening and just completely shocked as to what was going on at the time. I seem to remember that the argument from those in labor that wanted to get rid of you was that you were impossible to work with where you impossible to work with.Kevin Rudd 26:00That's just a bullshit argument was a post facto construction. I mean, real it's really interesting is that there was an academic of the dime. And his name was Patrick Whelan, who was compiling a book on the operating style of the Rudd government. So we'd gone round and interviewed all these guys and girls, all anonymously, by the way, and they all gave copious accounts of how well the cabinet process was working, what a good Chair of cabinet was, etc. So they contemporaneous accounts actually don't lend themselves to that view. And you can understand that when people have executed a bloody first term political coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister, that they're going to search around for some sort of other excuse. Look, it was ambition, political ambition, they wanted my job. And the case of the factions they want me out of the road because I couldn't abide the factions of the Labour Party because they kept trying to stand over people on various policy questions and personal appointments so therefore you can you embed a narrative in if I was so bad to work for then when I came back as prime minister Why did practically all the staff I had working for me first time around, come back and work from the second time round? I mean, if it was all that bad I don't quite understand that.Dan Ilic 27:25You must have good snacks. You must have good snacks.Kevin Rudd 27:29But even even detractors like Simon crane would say that it was very good cheer of cabinet everyone gonna say we did things methodically, etc. So look, just understand that in politics, people are always going to invent their alibi after the event, and this was one of the alibis invented and you'll notice it's kind of drifted away, they don't talk about it. Any anymore. And if you go to if you're really interested in this subject, and your listeners are the autobiography I wrote called the pm years, it actually kind of deconstructs all of this in some considerable detail 1400 footnotes for you and your nerdy listeners.Dan Ilic 28:11very thorough. Kevin, very far have you? Do you think when you were talking about a plan for 20, keeping the air at having a price on carbon? Do you think it'll ever be possible to get price and emissions ever again in Australia?Kevin Rudd 28:29I hope so. That's certainly what I work towards, because it's part of the armory is the total armory, but it's part of the armory. You see, can what's the end point here and the end point is to bring down greenhouse gas emissions to the extent necessary that we don't have global temperature increases beyond 1.5. We're not on track for that, you know, the mathematics if we did, everything we agreed to in Paris would get one third of that distance, not, not the and that's absent the next commitment period under Paris, let alone People actually doing that which they commit to. So to get to that end point, what can you do a on the energy supply side, you transfer out of fossil fuels into renewables. B, you can do that by legislation as we did through the mandatory nubile energy target. You can also do it by making carbon that much more expensive to use. And there's a third way you can do it, which is where Obama got to the end, which is that you bring in a bunch of regulatory measures to screw down on the industry itself, other than through a carbon price. So I would strongly say to the the carbon lobby, be careful what you do, if you don't want to carbon price, and you can be regulated out of existence. Be very careful.Dan Ilic 29:50It's pretty interesting to kind of say machinations right now. A lot of people are talking about this election in the US as probably If Trump gets back in will be the death knell for any kind of global negotiation on climate. Do you think if Trump does get in that, that climate action, meaningful climate action is over on a global scale?Kevin Rudd 30:16No, because, I mean, on climate, Trump, you know, like Abbott is kind of the Antichrist. That's just the truth of it. But guess what, enough major corporations in the world have now become the object of shareholder action or action on the part of their finances. And so if you're out there with a pension fund at the moment, and courtesy of previous labour, governments national superannuation policy, you all are, look at where they're investing and apply pressure. It's having an effect. It's having an effect through the annual general meeting. shareholder lobbies, etc. So, therefore, we should not despair. If Conan the Barbarian cousin gets reelected in the United States, it will be retro again, but action by state governments, municipal governments, but frankly primarily shareholder action through not financing these projects for the futureDan Ilic 31:26is critical. You talk about other governments and in Australia in particular, why is this such a gap between what's happening on a federal level with climate action and the states the states kind of seem to be on the front foot with climate action and really taking it seriously. All the states are dedicated to net zero by 2050. What is that? What is that chasm? And, and why does it exist?Kevin Rudd 31:56I think it's because of the power of the car. lobby federally, and it's just been more deeply entrenched. They concentrate their resources. Remember, just on a related matter when we brought in the results of super profits tax, the amount of money which Rio and bhp threw at that one, as a campaign, we're looking at a worchester, around about a 90 or 100 million dollars, that buys a truckload of advertising. And I'm talking about a decade ago. So, therefore, you put them together plus then their national mouthpiece, the Murdoch media. You got paid advertising from the carbon lobby, directly or indirectly. And then you've got the Murdoch media who have always been their mouthpiece and certainly the greatest opponent of systematic action on climate change in this country, put them together apply to the federal government, in federal politics. It's very hard to I just that's a really kind of circumvented that, and really looked at the science and really tried to appear to be doing meaningful things. As the fossil fuel lobby dropped the ball when it comes to interacting the states or,Dan Ilic 33:12or I just can't i can't reconcile of how the federal government can't acknowledge where the states are at and meet the states where they are, and just do the right thing.Kevin Rudd 33:23I think it's because theDan Ilic 33:26I'm talking I'm also sorry, I'm sorry, Kevin. I'm also talking about both parties here. I feel like liberal and labor.Kevin Rudd 33:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been talking about my home. I'm not, you know, I mean, I've, I've explained some of the failings on our side. I mean, the bottom line is, for God's sake, you know, the Green Party, joined with liberals to defeat the carbon price. Back in 2009. The Labour Party did what it did in terms of the coup in 2010, for the reasons that we outlined. And then Abbott Upon his election repealed the the carbon price, which then then existed. So there's some responsibility to share with a lap around. Let's be, let's be blunt about this. The liberal National Party have been ideologically committed to destroying the carbon price for a very long time. And had they had a reverse view, we would be 10 years down the track,Dan Ilic 34:26but it but it feels like you're talking to two different countries. When you're talking about the state's position and the in the federal position like now, it's 2020. Surely the federal government can just flick a switch and jump on board because what they're doing is moot because the states are putting in so much pressure and putting in so many mechanisms to meet those targets.Kevin Rudd 34:48That's true. So to answer your question, as a matter of analysis, I assume that the carbon lobby spend list time, less effort and less money on stake counterparts they do federally point 1.2. I just notice and note that Murdoch does not run a campaign against state political parties and state governments on carbon. The only exception I would say would be, you know, they're in and out of the Adani debate in the, in the case of Queensland politics in the last federal election. And they may be back on that next time around as well. So I just think it's differential treatment. And ultimately, they know that the taxation powers here are a federal power. So that's where the why they put all their their bucks into that particular basket, I think,Dan Ilic 35:38yes, my best. There makes sense. Now I've got some questions from my Patreon supporters. Kevin, I hope you for them. Simon, who is Simon Holmes, a court asks you what if you work collaboratively with the libs in 2008 to push through the cprs rather than roasting Turnbull slowly, all the way up to late 2009. Do you think you might have gotten over the line rather than giving an opening for the rise of Tony AbbottKevin Rudd 36:01Well, thank you Mr. Han's, do your homework and get your facts straight, and have a long chat to Penny Wong, who was my Minister for climate change. And he did all the negotiations with with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane, her brief for me, he was to get a deal. And if you look at our original draft, the cprs. And what we ended up with line after line after line, we compromised in order to make it possible for Turnbull to deliver this to his party room. And in the end, what Turnbull took to his party room was what they signed up to, and believe they could prevail on remember Turnbull at the end of the day, lost by one vote. So it's pretty easy for Mr. Holmes a court to say, oh, in advance you should have known precisely, Kevin how much further you should have compromised on your on your carbon price, your carbon pollution reduction scheme. At the time in order to give not turnable a one seat loss for the leaders or one vote loss for the leadership but a five vote majority. I think it's a little a little defying of the logic to to suggest that anyone could have that level of as it were. For side anyway ask Penny she had a complete negotiating brief to do itDan Ilic 37:21on on that. Do you regret not building a bridge with the greens at that point? folks in the green said that they never had a phone call with anyone from from your side.Kevin Rudd 37:32That's just a complete lie, lie, lie. It's not an untruth. It is actually a deliberate lie. And the reason is, Penny Wong was dealing with the greens all the way through. Why was she doing it because all the greens are in the Senate. They're not announcer representatives and that's where the numbers were. So day in day out she'd been negotiating with the greens day in day out should be negotiating with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane. And when she came in and said, we've got a deal, you know, I was delighted. So this whole idea of having some perverse interest in roasting Turnbull slowly. It's just a nonsense. It's again, it's a post facto narrative on the part of the Green Party. And they sought to exonerate themselves for just absolute bloody mindedness, by the way you want. The final proof of that is the cprs regime, the carbon pollution reduction scheme is a more rigorous regime in terms of its coverage of the economy than the subsequent carbon tax that they agreed with with Gilad after the 2010 election, the one that was then ultimately repealed by by by Abbott. So the Green Party just have no credit on this.Dan Ilic 38:49And even though that was repealed, did you end that was not your particular policy at that point in time. When it was repealed. Were you How did you feel about that, that repealing was it Personal was he we joyful that it got repaired because it wasn't yours or where you're upset that,Kevin Rudd 39:04you know sick in the stomach. And you may remember that in the 2013 election in order to seek to preserve it, remember the politics of it was this Gilad political failure was this a, she used opposition to the carbon price and the carbon pollution reduction scheme as part of her push against me for the leadership? that's proven, let's just establish That's a fact. Secondly, she then has a near death experience in the 2010 election, scrambled time with the minority government, the Green Party then walk in and say, we're only going to support you if you put a price on carbon. And so suddenly, it's a carbon tax and not a floating price. And the problem is Gilad has promised in the previous election campaign that they will not That there will never be a carbon tax under a government will try and leave. At that point she killed the political credibility of her government at that point, and everything was downhill from then. So when I came back What did I do to get around that? I said, the first thing that we'll be doing is to legislate to turn the fixed price into a floating price to Megan do emissions trading scheme, thereby removing the political bugbear. This was a complete election breach by gilla.Dan Ilic 40:29I've got another question from one of our Patreon supporters. Claire Jenkins writes about this point in time right now we're in with with COVID and the economics of that we're living through. She asked if he was in power, what policies or industries would he prop up to help push Australia out of its current economic mess?Kevin Rudd 40:47What I do is complete the bloody National Broadband Network in the manner in which it was originally conceived as fiber optic to the pregnancy. Yes, and because Can you Imagine where we'd be right now, if there was no NBN at all. So we launched this thing, but back then 2008 was to be fiber optic to the premises. The other mob got elected in 2013 killed it by making it fiber optic to the node in order to look after Murdoch and his mates because they didn't want Netflix to be able to go straight through to people's homes. As a result, we have a much weaker broadband, as you know. But unless we launched the National Broadband Network when we did, there would be no national broadband at present, you'd have bits and pieces in various cities, large cities, but that's about it. So what would I do, given that where COVID-19 has taken us, which is the digital economy is the future unless this country has a fully functioning digital network with fiber optic to everyone else, everyone, small business, etc. We ain't gonna be competing. So I put the cache finish the job that we should have completed, had not the other mob taken Rupert's interest into account and killed it.Dan Ilic 42:10A lot of a lot has been written about that and when you hear it clear cut out of your mouth. Do you? Is it weird to kind of say How is it? I guess what I'm asking for Do you have a certain sense of shot in Florida with the way Fox tells subscribe is being dropped off?Kevin Rudd 42:29Well, I think Fox Fox hills ship program programming anyway, but look, Murdock knew back then and one of the reasons he turns out viciously against us is because of fiber optic to the premises. He just didn't want Netflix competition at that point. He wanted to be able to as it were evolved foxtel into a different business over time, because of you know, the residual investments in cable which he laid out a long time before that. So I basically marched in, and unbeknownst to myself, because I was just advancing a National Broadband Network for the good of the economy and for people working from home, etc for the future. I torpedoed his commercial strategy over bloody foxtel which was his only remaining cash cow in the country. So am I happy that fox Hill is going through the floor? Nah, I don't. I don't enjoy other people's pain. But God, you could see this coming.Dan Ilic 43:28It's so strange. Like if the NBN had been built to its fruition to its original design, Fox will probably be in a better bad, better position, they probably had to build a robust streaming business off the back of high capacity streaming.Kevin Rudd 43:43If I had any imagination, that's exactly what they would have done. But they had nothing they wanted to protect. What was then a billion dollars a year cash cow, because everyone in those days was watching for till there was nothing else and it costs subsidized. Murdoch's real power, which is his national print monopoly, all of which will last making the most of which will last me.Dan Ilic 44:01Let's talk about that going to say rupert murdoch, I seem to remember you going to say riverbed rocks before you ran? What was that conversation? Like in the room? And how do you? How do you have that conversation? And what do you talk about when you when you tell rupert murdoch, you're running for Prime Minister?Kevin Rudd 44:20Well, before anyone accuses me of being hypocrite, I've been doing that.Dan Ilic 44:24No, no, no, no, no one's accusing you of being hypocrite. I just want to know, what is it like? You know, what is this?Kevin Rudd 44:30What is it like for your listeners to understand why someone like me would do that? If the guy has 70% of the print media, and that he is definitionally hostile to labor, then isn't it better that I can as it were get to a stage where maybe in the 2007 election, we get 5050 coverage rather than 99 one which is the norm against labor, so that's why I did it. Really reduceDan Ilic 44:57we all know why you do it. You know, when I every He does it. Every single buddy does it Kevin, what I want to know is what is it? Like? What's the feeling like of waiting in the lobby to say rip up?Kevin Rudd 45:10And what is it like waiting to shake? It's like waiting to shake hands with Gollum, you know? And then there's this thing that sits in the room opposite view saying, oh, precious, my precious, my precious. You have to be able to kind of understand the analogy there. I hope your listeners do. I thinkDan Ilic 45:29Gollum is widely publicized throughout popular culture to get back.Kevin Rudd 45:32I don't know, you know, I'm just, I'm just 200 from the Queensland country. I'm not sure but so you're dealing with Gollum. And you got to understand that Gollum has got precious in his hands. And that's his share price. And he is a deeply far right conservative individual. So you just working with what you got the only thing that I could find that his interests in mind overlapped He believes in something called Small Business formation. And so, and because, you know, Trey's, my wife set up her own small business, which became a big business over time, we can talk about that. But beyond that, you're kind of dealing with a guy whose worldview is out there to the point where, you know, Attila the Hun would stop and blush at a particular point in that conversation.Dan Ilic 46:27And what were you feeling that what was your What was your gut feeling during that meeting? How are you handling that?Kevin Rudd 46:34Okay, well, you're in a negotiation, you know, and he's been around longer than me. He's dealt with political leaders, a lot of them before me. And so am I, of course anxious thing to get a better outcome for the Labour Party would otherwise be the case because I am. And she knows something. It's impoossible Tto warm to this guy there is there's nothing personal, personally redeeming about him. It's just, you know, and I've had many interactions with him. It's just nothing to talk about the values that I can identify of any redeeming quality, it's transactional. It's about the share price, and it's about power. That's his worldview.Dan Ilic 47:27For me. It's quite strange to reconcile that, the Australian who has had more effect on the world than anyone is Rupert Murdoch, it's in some respects, he is Australia's greatest Australian. But he's also Rupert Murdoch.Kevin Rudd 47:43He's our worst, He's our worst export.You know, in the United States where I spend most of my time Yeah, like since I came second in the 2013 election.Dan Ilic 47:55Do they give you a certificate or a ribbon for coming second?Kevin Rudd 48:00You get a runner up prize, you know, you get red for coming second rat, you had blue coming first and you're green for coming third. Anyway, so some of the United States I've been running an American think tank for the last five years, I get asked every day by Americans, how we ended up producing this phenomenon, which is, which is Murdoch, who is not just a cancer on the Australian democracy, which is cancer on the British democracy and a cancer on the American democracy.Dan Ilic 48:30Now, tell me, do you think we can get meaningful climate action around the world if we convince that we convince Rupert and Laughlin that climate action is working?Kevin Rudd 48:39I don't think it's a deliverable outcome. Murdoch is such an arrogant individual that he regards his own worldview is by definition, right. And that climate change is just, you know, as, as Abbott said, is absolute crap. That's his worldview. lochlan word Murdoch is no better by the way and lots of money. Because as deeply conservative on climate questions as his father, the only reason he would change I think is if somehow the ultimate News Corp share price was about to be ripped to pieces as a result of it. So News Corp shareholders Think about it.Dan Ilic 49:15Well, Gary has chimed in he says, How can we dismantle Murdoch's media holdout politics? We've kind of covered that a little bit. I don't think that's possible right.Kevin Rudd 49:25Now, I think we need to revisit to the media ownership laws in the country. One of the reasons why I for three years now call for a royal commission into media ownership and diversity in this country is that we cannot any longer sustain a system whereby this guy controls 70% of the print readership, my state of Queensland, which usually determines federal election outcomes. He has fought 13 of the 14 newspapers. And you ask the question, why is this state you know, constantly such hard going for the Labour Party? That's one of the reasons Do you think It even is relevant now in 2020, when you've got things like Facebook and misinformation as such huge levels that Murdoch has kind of his powers diminished and fake news is probably more of a threat. Oh, Murdoch is fake news. What I mean by that is, is you'd be surprised because what's happening with the hollowing out of the news industry in this country? Generally, the demise of local newspapers or regional newspapers, independent publishing houses, the collapse of APN and Fairfax, getting thinner and thinner. Is that why does Murdoch handy hang on to these loss making enterprises because he knows it's still an avenue for political power? And why is that because both the radio, television and social media still take so many feeds out of print, which he continues to dominate? Why does he have hundreds of working journalists at the Australian pumping out conservative crap every day is because if you go into a radio station in, you know, some regional center in, in rural Victoria, guess what's open on the on the on the interview This sets the agenda, that day's Australia. It sets the agenda and that's why they do it.Dan Ilic 51:18Now Gary is also asks is Jeff it's given and his support for the fossil fuel industry a liability for the AARP on climate change issues.Kevin Rudd 51:29I haven't sat down with Joel to have a long enough talk about what his actual end point is here. Whether he's seeking to change Federal Labor policy, or whether he's simply trying to protect his own seat. So I'll just pass comment on that. until I've really had a decent conversation with him because I don't quite understand the game plan.Dan Ilic 51:52Leadership is hard, Kevin, and I really appreciate you taking time to answer our questions today. If you had one bit of advice for Leaders heading into this space to and people of all walks of life wanting to show leadership on climate action. What would you say to them?Kevin Rudd 52:09I'd probably say two or three things. One, keep up to date with the technical and policy literature. It changes remarkably quickly, both in what technology is capable of, but also where the policy debates are going. It's very easy to become, as it were outdated. First point. Number two, be absolutely unapologetic about establishing a bold policy vision. People may not like climate change as the greatest moral challenge of our generation, they may like it. But whatever the equivalent is, you've got to hold open a vision by which people can in mobilizing organize action, a second thing without a vision the people perish on the Old Testament prophets once wrote. The third thing is this vision is useless unless you do three things, organize, organize and organize. And so here is the great problem often with activists in one form or another is that they love to seminar. They love to talk, but bloody organizing. That's difficult. And it's hard. And so organizing people to get on the talkback radio on to GB where everyone screams and shouts at you, is quite different from whether you join the queue to end up on q&a in a more comfortable environment at the ABC on a Monday evening. So organize, organize, organize, so read, keep across the literature, to lay out a vision for the son that plans extended vision splendid on the sun that plans extended for one As the destination point for climate so that it is both about our environment, our ecology and our economy wrapped together and three, organize, organize, organize. And the last one is hardDan Ilic 54:11on the hard subjects. One of the hardest things about this is thinking about climate, in terms of justice, for leaders heading into this space, how can we reconcile justice for people who are on the who get the roar end of the deal? From our lavish lifestyles, talking about people who are most climate who most climate vulnerable people in areas where they're their land is going to be taken away by I say or by fires? How can we start really? How do you think about climate justice and like, what's is there? Is there one prism you look at that through?Kevin Rudd 54:55Yeah, we've got to have the prison as I have sought to in my employer. A lot of being a global citizen. I mean, it's so easy in political life just to see yourself as Joe local, or at best. Joe national. By definition, this one goes way beyond the national boundaries. So unless you have political leaders who see themselves, not just intellectually, but emotionally as global citizens, that is, has a better quality of empathy, which is those who risk the inundation of their entire lives and livelihoods in care Boston, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands and elsewhere. bows who will be forced from the land in terms of the meager subsistence economies which they support 40 million of them the low lowest line parts of Bangladesh, unless you actually have these house holes in your head, then it's an obstruction. So that's one thing the second day what you do about it. And so when we did the second pillar to the Copenhagen agreement, which was the hundred billion dollar climate adjustment fund, for which then became Green Fund, to assist in adaptation purposes for those sorts of countries and economies and regions, and, frankly, not serious. So it's both attitudinal and understanding. As john Wesley used to say, in a different context, several centuries ago, the world is my parish. That is, you know, we're global citizens here and it's a planetary challenge. And but then, secondly, being brutally pragmatic about the policy instruments necessary to support people who are not going to have an option.Dan Ilic 56:53One of the enduring images I think of your prime ministership was during the Queensland floods, and seeing you walk down the streets in your neighborhood helping people to evacuate the floods. And something interesting by comparison is seeing Scott Morrison holidays in Hawaii and then coming back to Australia saying he doesn't hold a hose. When you see that kind of leadership, what goes through your head?Kevin Rudd 57:21Look, I don't know what was in his head when he's to go to Waikiki. I've got no idea. And so I don't know what family pressures were on him or what all the rest of it. But what worries me about Morrison more generally, I've got to say is this when people have christened him Scotty from marketing? I think they're very close to the money here. Because there's a former state director of liberal party. Morrison and my experience is always concerned about how he appears and how the Liberal Party appears and Marketing and public relations since that's his first instinct if you if you were to ask me this, what is Scott Morrison's policy worldview? I could Nancy you and I've known this guy quite well in the federal parliament, but I was still a member. So, and we've got these sort of folks in the Labour Party as well. I'm not pretending to be Robinson Crusoe, that I'm so not pretending that this is a problem for liberal parties just that this guy's ended up as prime minister.Dan Ilic 58:27I thought you were predicted to be Robinson Crusoe because you have this amazing beard butKevin Rudd 58:32that's by the way No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's my attempt to go into my next Hemingway phase is getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and love Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting. So you know, to complete the Hemingway sort of delusion. So I think, you know, I didn't know what was in Morrison's mind, but I've got to say you Going against his own benchmark that was a big marketing failure. You know, something in politics, it's not that complicated. The Australian public can spot a fraud at 1000 paces. Look in your eyeballs. And they they know whether you're for real or not. And, and the problem here is this guy's a marketing guy. And that's, I think, ultimately his downfall.Dan Ilic 59:31Kevin, in Australia, do Prime Ministers get to keep the title, don't have to call your prime minister Kevin Rudd. Oh, God, no.Kevin Rudd 59:39And I think it's one of the great things about Australia. We don't go in for all that stuff. I live in America and people call you Prime Minister all the time. It's get it gets embarrassing. Here. I'm very lucky in a given day, if I just get away with Kevin. Usually it's considerably worse than that.Dan Ilic 59:54Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us on irrational fear. You're completely generous with But the topics we went to the areas we went to, and I thank you for for your time and your insight and your intellect. Thanks, my pleasure to be with you and thanks for Thanks for knighting me on Twitter. I was very kind of you I didn't deserve it. But, you know, I thought I thought any Tony Abbott could do that.Kevin Rudd 1:00:17No, no, it's it's a general dispensation for those of us who have been Prime Minister of this country.Dan Ilic 1:00:24Thanks very much, Kevin.Kevin Rudd 1:00:27GM, the greatest moral podcast of our generation.Dan Ilic 1:00:31That was Kevin Rudd, what did you think Lynne? If you start watching all of the Lord of the Rings movies now including all the other Hobbit, you should be able to finish it just by the time the world implodes, so you should be fineLinh Do 1:00:43by the time we leave lockdown. That's right. That's how I'm spending the rest of Melbourne stage four.Dan Ilic 1:00:48On the second Monday of every month, we're going to be holding these conversations coming down the line. I'm going to be talking with the se moseby who is fighting for the tar strike. Sarah Wilson, Adam bandt and Rebecca Huntley. Also on the list as well. And I want to know who you'd like to hear from drop me a line at Dan at irrational fear.com or on social media. Thanks a lot, everyone. We'll see you next month for the greatest moral podcast of our generation or next week for irrational fear.Transcribed by https://otter.aiA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/If you want to support the podcast and take your car carbon neutral, with GoNeutral here: http://bit.ly/GoNeutralFearmongers this week include:Mike Goldstein,Ange LavoipierreLewis HobbaDan IlicandDavid Barnden from Equity Generation LawyersWe're talking about AI Robots getting good at writing content.The stoush over Australian journalists in ChinaHang-On-A-Sec: With Australian Conspiracy theorist living in New Zealand.And speak to the lawyer who is working on behalf of all Australia's teenagers to fight a coal mine in Northern NSW.Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.This podcast is supported in part by the Bertha Foundation.TRANSCRIPTION BY OTTER.AI:Dan Ilic 0:00Louis,Lewis Hobba 0:00Daniel, how are you?Dan Ilic 0:02Oh, very good. We had a big week on Patreon this week more people getting us to 64% of op x. I'm using terms like op x now that's I don't even know that means operational expenditure. And big thanks to Angela Brown, Yun de patron, Josh Fergus, Stephen and a guy called Matthew Vander pude, who I believe is like a specialist in like hyperlapse photography, you should check out their work online. So head to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to get us to 100% as soon as we can break even the sooner we can buy needless cameos for American reality stars to put on the shark.Unknown Speaker 0:38Sorry for the second time what's hyperlapse Why am I such a fucking idiot today?Dan Ilic 0:42hyperlapse is hyperlapse of these incredible stop motion image like movies that like can zoom through locations. This guy's absolutely incredible. He's a big fan of irrational fear. So he dropped awesome. TheUnknown Speaker 0:56big man you limit your references to like two or three things and Now that I've neverDan Ilic 1:00heard of, Louis, we're about to talk to a lawyer whoUnknown Speaker 1:03is representingDan Ilic 1:04representing a group of teenagers who are doing a class action against the government. And I'm sure there's gonna be lots of lingo You and I are gonna have to ask him. Hey, another way you can support the show is by making your car carbon neutral with go neutral. I did it this week, you can pay go neutral, 90 bucks and they'll send you a little sticker to pop on your car. And on your behalf. They'll buy 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets which is about the emissions of an average car for the year. And if you use the link in the show notes, you get five bucks or sorry five bucks comes to us. Yeah, get $5 $5 comes to us. So big thanks to go neutral for that. So head on over there and make your car carbon neutral. All right, my end of irrational fears recorded on gadigal land the urination. sovereignty was never said let's start the show.Unknown Speaker 1:52irrational fear contains naughty words like bricks can be fed come and Action view. A rational fear recommended listening by immature audience.Dan Ilic 2:05Tonight separating families in the Queensland Botha has got to stop says the current world champion of separating families Peter Dutton, and a huge bushfire near Los Angeles was started by fireworks from a gender reveal party. While the agenda is still yet to be revealed, Elisa confirmed it was a dick move. And this week Sydney Olympic Park reaches a major milestone. It has been exactly 20 years since its last visitor who would have thought that September 11 would have lost a meeting. Well, hey, it's 2020 this is irrational fear.This is irrational fear. I'm your host disgraced rugby league Star Dan Ilic sinned joining us on the panel today. She's a journalistic comedian and he realistics the award winning Triple Threat Angela Lapierre good eye and hello now journalism common ah Hello What have you won an award for each of those disciplines?Ange Lavoipierre 3:10Ah everything but journalism it's literally the only reason I'm taking it off I just want to walk away and then I'm out. That's like my job.Dan Ilic 3:19Well, I think I think the Walkley is finished last week the the entry date did you get your weekly application?Unknown Speaker 3:25Dad? No, I didn't. I guess I'm in for another year.Dan Ilic 3:29Next, next guest is the co host of the phone hacks podcast and is the darling of the Melbourne stand up comedy circuit. Lightly. He's done gigs in the living room, the bathroom and the Panic Room. It's my Goldstein.Unknown Speaker 3:42Hey, thanksDan Ilic 3:43for having me. Mike. How you coping with lockdown in Melbourne.Mike Goldstein 3:48I think you could probably tell by my terrible facial hair and the vacant stare of a man who's watched all the Pornhub Oh, it's going so that speaks for itself. Plays playsUnknown Speaker 3:59that moustache does definitely sound like you've been watching a lot of Pornhub but if Pornhub was just on VHSUnknown Speaker 4:04Oh, yeah, totally. So I go old school with it, you know? Yeah. And I play plays on my hoodie just to feel extra creepy.Dan Ilic 4:12It's great. Yeah. Mike plays no spoilers. I haven't finished it yet. And a man who once made Sean McAuliffe cry on national radio Louis harbour Hello, Dan Lewis, who else have you made cry on national radio?Unknown Speaker 4:26Ah, I made so many people angry when I'm on the radio. Not a lot of tears. Obviously. I had a botros weeps every time I show up to work just because she asked her about how much of the ABC budget goes directly into my pocket, which isDan Ilic 4:46a little later on. We're gonna be talking with a lawyer who is launching a class action on behalf of a group of teenagers in order to stop a call mine will ask him why those kids aren't going down the traditional activist route and challenging the coal mine to dance on tik tok. But first, let's go Stuck in the face.Unknown Speaker 5:04This is a rational view.Dan Ilic 5:07Fan number one. A different kind of mind. Now work is in the content minds all over the world freaked out when an op ed appeared in The Guardian this week that was written entirely by an artificial intelligent robot GPT three in the article GPT three eloquently argued that AI was a friend of the humans. I read the piece and it was far more coherent than Donald Trump. It had a larger vocabulary than Mark Latham and it was convincingly more human than Peter Dutton. The article was written by the open AI language generator off the single prompt, please write a short op ed around 500 words keep the language simple and concise. Focus on why humans have nothing to fear from AI, which I believe is also the opening scene of the latest Terminator movie, which also when you watch it, you might as well think it's actually probably written by robot. Mike, are you worried about the content right? And then cutting finger jobs.Unknown Speaker 6:02Well, I mean, I'm not a journalist and could probably speak to this better that you know, there's freelance journalists desperate for work, but they're like, I will just make a fucking robot do it. How's that sound? You know? And then what fascinated me about this article. Firstly was how did the robot get past the I am not a robot threshold? Any online?Dan Ilic 6:25Yeah, hang on a second. Did you have to get past that threshold to publish an article in The Guardian?Unknown Speaker 6:30You would think super hard. I'm alwaysUnknown Speaker 6:32getting caught at that thing as well. It's not easy to do.Dan Ilic 6:34Yeah, I don't live in America. I don't know what a 500 is.Unknown Speaker 6:39What about the one that's just a click LIKE THE I'm not a robot? Yeah. Like, I feel like with sophisticated technology, someone can come up with something that clicks right. like crazy.Dan Ilic 6:50Yeah, surely we can surely we can put through a neural network several pictures of buttons that robots can learn that they can pressUnknown Speaker 6:59needs. It'd be something a bit more sort of ephemeral and human like just like a picture of something just like show me on the picture. Where is shame?Dan Ilic 7:09Yeah. Which of the following sentences or sarcasm?Unknown Speaker 7:13Yeah what emotion does this make you feel? You know?Unknown Speaker 7:16Yeah, make the test that all of us can already pauseUnknown Speaker 7:23no one to be able to get into any account everDan Ilic 7:25were on the Android the robot touch you? different question different different tests different tests. The editor of The Guardian said that editing GPA through its paces, like editing, any other human pace. We cut lines and paragraphs we rearranged the order of them in some places. Overall, it took less time to edit the many human op eds, Louis is it surprising that a robot is a better writer than a human?Unknown Speaker 7:48Um, I mean, not really. But I guess I haven't read it. I'm curious to read it. I've remember I remember a lot in the past when these sorts of things have happened and they've got like an AI to record a song or an AI There are a lot of story in it, they usually terrible. The fact that it's good, I must admit does make me genuinely uncomfortable.Dan Ilic 8:09This one was really good. Like I've seen a lot of those articles too. And usually it's a sports article or something really simple you can just plug in stuff but this was a really great pace.Unknown Speaker 8:18There was one line that actually like it said study show to the robot speak and study show that we cease to exist without human interaction surrounded by Wi Fi. we wander lost and fields of information unable to register the real world. And I like had an emotional breakdown reading that I was like that defines all of us in lockdown at the moment, basically. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.Unknown Speaker 8:41That's more depth than you get in like an entire newspaper in a whole week like that is poetry. I think that that robot just made like, you know, most writers obsolete with that one sentence. Like you Louis I opened this expecting it to be auto trash and if anything I mean, the only place where it really fell down was actually convincing me of the argument that it was seeking to make. I was like structure tick vocab tick. Like it is beautiful, but it is chilling. It is completely chilling. Like, especially if like me when you read it, you actually heard the whole thing in the voice from the Resident Evil movie. Like very, very clearly, like, believe me, and artificial, like artificial intelligence will not destroy humans. I can't even do like I don't have that level of titling and I'm not even gonna try to do the voiceUnknown Speaker 9:32it said that too many times the with the robots will not destroy humanity. I was like, Alright, chill out, bro.Unknown Speaker 9:39Yeah.Unknown Speaker 9:41Why? No, it's a real like Australian. It won't take any Australian journalist jobs until they can learn to just be like, pointlessly starting fights on Twitter,Dan Ilic 9:52or doing Recaps of the bachelor that it could take Australian journalists jobs. Can robots like this replace comedy Do you think Mike,Unknown Speaker 10:01I don't know, because what I was fascinated about was that it said, it got all its knowledge by by reading the entire internet, right? So I was like, how is its knowledge not mainly made up of conspiracy theories, cat videos and porn, right? That's how it's like. That's a 98% of the internet. I thought so. I guess that's all my jokes are about onstage. SoDan Ilic 10:26yeah, maybe? Well, NBC is launching their streaming service part peacock soon and they've been running trials with an artificial intelligent Jay Leno. NBC have fed 20 years of Jay Leno's Tonight Show monologues into a machine learning neural network and asked it to write a monologue each day based on the day's news. And the results are almost convincing.Unknown Speaker 10:51Thank you. Thank you. I'm artificial intelligent Jay Leno, and this is the AI Tonight Show. It is so hot in Los Angeles. Madame Tussauds looks like a George W. Bush, Los Angeles. That celebrity rapper ice cube is now just called George W. Bush. It's so hot in LA people have started liking Ellen again, George W. Bush. It's now so hot in Los Angeles that celebrities noses have melted back into their George W. Bush. It's so hot in Hollywood that los Angelenos are being told to leave bowls of water out for Snoop Dogg. Snoop Dogg. Ladies and gentlemen, George W. Bush. David Letterman stabbed in the back so many times you may as well call me Monica Seles, and Conan O'Brien just didn't work for a mainstream audience. He's crazier than a pyjama party at Michael Jackson's house. America loves me. I'm up there with SUVs iraq war one and George W. Bush.Dan Ilic 11:52You know, it's pretty close. It's pretty close. It is notUnknown Speaker 11:55quite right.Unknown Speaker 11:57Absurd charm to it. Like I I liked it. I liked the kind of disjointed the clunky like I liked it. I think I prefer it frankly.Dan Ilic 12:06Fate number two there is a war of a journalism happening in Australia and China to Australian journalists. The ABC China correspondent Bill bertels. And the AFIS Mike Smith were rushed back to Australia after spending a couple of days taking shelter in the Australian embassies in Beijing and Shanghai. They made their way directly to the embassies after getting messages on their phones and the Chinese police wanted to interview them. Some say this is a bit of an overreaction. I mean, I get shot strange Chinese messages on my phone at least once a month saying the Australian Tax Office wants to interview me. I don't go rushing to no embassy somewhere also saying that this is actually good news for the industry. After all journalists are finally back in demand, sure, by the various state police forces, but as Oscar Wilde once said, it's better to be talked about into work in public relations. And you are the journalist on the panel. Should Australians be upset about this?Unknown Speaker 12:56Oh look, I think there are several reasons that Australian should be up about this, you've touched on most of them there, but one I think is not getting enough attention. Because, look, I think mostly what Australia should be upset about here is that China has kind of stolen its thing.Dan Ilic 13:15He's saying it was the Chinese are making a cheap knockoff of police rights. Is that what's happening,Unknown Speaker 13:19saying all I'm saying, dad is that sending clips around to journalists harms, the national security concerns is a signature Australian. Asked Anika Smith has bullying journalists so much. I think that I'm not sure this is a diplomatic status anymore. I'm pretty sure it's a copyright dispute. Later today, maybe we can ask him. But look, whatever Australia has done along the way to its own journalists, which is, of course totally different. totally legitimate. We love the rule of law here. There's nowhere to cut it so it's a good book to China is there I mean, Kiki journalist, that is usually the very last thing that you do before a coup or a genocide. It's like the star on the Christmas tree. If like war crimes is switching on the fairy lights. very last thing that you do. Although yeah right right now China doesn't seem super concerned about the optics like roughly is concerned about the optics is no good son after a drink.Unknown Speaker 14:16No, that's very dated reference, but I'm reallyDan Ilic 14:18sorry. We just that's okay. We just got toUnknown Speaker 14:25do bushDan Ilic 14:27there's another Australian journalist who's currently in jail Chang lei who is the anchor for CG tn which if you read Chris Kenny's column CG tn is kind of like the ABC Ching lays man in jail for some weeks not and these guys were just hanging out with D flat for a couple of days. So these guys do. Is there too much fuss being made about these guys and not ever chengli?Unknown Speaker 14:50Well, look, I think you can't make too much fuss over the fact that the last two Australian journalists have just been kicked out of China. So everyone has been loving to say this week Oh, we'd like woessner eyes in China, which would like ironically maybe precipitate bring over more spies. I mean, that is a possible outcome. You'd have to kind of countenance but look, yeah, the other thing is it is hard to kind of feel your heart bleed in into significant way over four days in the embassy. I mean, all we need to really do is ask Mike about that.Dan Ilic 15:25Well, and let me ask you, if you are on the run from China, would you run to the strange embassy? Is that what you would?Unknown Speaker 15:33It's a smart move, and I'm so glad for them that they had the embassy there to go to I really like you know, genuinely I shudder to think what what might have happened. If bill and Mike hadn't had the embassy to run to of course it is worth noting that there isn't an equivalent in Australia. We don't have a journalist embassy yet. I'm not saying it's overdue. I'm not not saying it's overdue. I'm basically I'm saying let's have a journalist embassy like a regular embassy. But if you guys have seen john wick cry isn't Yeah, like that, like the spy hotel, but for journalists, that's what I want for this one is to have a safe place to go,Dan Ilic 16:20isn't it? Isn't it the National Press Club in Canada? Isn't that just a place for journalists to get drunk?Unknown Speaker 16:25I don't think the walls are very high politicians and all the time.Unknown Speaker 16:30In your video, comparison is Chris Kenney john wicks and says the only strength journalists get really angry about a reference to a dog.Unknown Speaker 16:40Yeah, wow, I don't I don't like this universe anymore.Unknown Speaker 16:45I'm hitting the escape button. But yeah, no, I genuinely think we need one. I mean, everyone who's been fired rioted run out of town, evicted from their homes because their wage doesn't cover the rent anymore. Maybe had a full blown nervous breakdown because everyone in the team has been made redundant and they What over time? Do we have walls we would have a pen budget we would have a password the password would be password.Unknown Speaker 17:10WeUnknown Speaker 17:10were on that we've been busted before.Dan Ilic 17:13And finally have all the journalists together so they won't have to go on Twitter. They could just talk to each other like they do on Twitter.Unknown Speaker 17:19Yeah, yeah. I mean, Twitter's gonna be like there's gonna be it's gonna be tumbleweed. Let's be real about this. But yeah, might be able to have a sensible conversation for once. I know it sounds extreme, but there's only 22 of us left in theUnknown Speaker 17:37we got we got robots now. Robots can do all this shit.Unknown Speaker 17:40Yeah, we are. We don't need much. We just stayed like, you know, like a backyard like a quarter acre. I reckon. They just like pen something out. You know, maybe we could take part of the Russian embassy. They've killed a lot of journalists. I'm sure they always.Unknown Speaker 17:53Yeah, it definitely felt like a coincidence that the Australian journalists ran back to Australia, just weeks after China banned Australian wine.Unknown Speaker 18:02Yeah, yeah, like Hang on.Unknown Speaker 18:04I can't get booze.Unknown Speaker 18:08I'm out of here. Yeah, I mean, they were they did actually fleet. You know, we say that they were kicked out but really they would chased I mean,Unknown Speaker 18:17they killing them calotsUnknown Speaker 18:19because that's, that's my take. I know it's an unusual one for journalists, but that's what I'm going with. Yeah, no, I think you know, journalists know what it feels like to be kicked out of places I've been kicked out of. I've been kicked out of courtrooms. I've been kicked out of cop shops. I've been kicked off john Howard's front lawn, the ones we know what it feels like, but they were they actually had to beg to leave so they were fleeing. Yeah, cowards. I think that's where we landed.Dan Ilic 18:44Yeah, Mike, what's your take on this?Unknown Speaker 18:46I was just jealous. When I heard about two guys I got to travel the world a little bit you know.Dan Ilic 18:53Still luck in luck down. These went Melbourne based journalistUnknown Speaker 19:00infection. It knocks it out in a minute. One minute they seizeUnknown Speaker 19:05our rational fear.Dan Ilic 19:07In a moment we're gonna be talking with the man who is leading a class action to shut down a coal mine expansion on behalf of Australia's teenagers but first, we're gonna play Hang on a sec. This week's Hang on a sec comes from the deep dark world of Australian q anon supporters. This one clip is from a woman named Karen Brewer, who among other things, last defamation case and had her Facebook posts pulled after calling a group of politicians paedophiles. And despite being a big presence in the Australian conspiracy theory saying it was recently revealed she was she's feeding her followers conspiracy theory content from her home in New Zealand. All I can say is New Zealand. I am so sorry. You don't deserve that plays. Let us back in. In this clip, Karen Brewer is trying to harness the power of Australia's greatest resource to blockade the Governor General's house. I'll play the clip and if Whenever you want to button just say Hang on a sec here we goUnknown Speaker 20:02just hang on a sec before I even start it's her name actually Karen Oh did you My name is Karen shouldDan Ilic 20:07we add to it we are talking we better watch a video of an actual Karen she might be the Karen that all the Karen's are based on fear yeah yeahUnknown Speaker 20:16to all the grey nomads Hang on a sec.Unknown Speaker 20:20I was not familiar with the term grey nomads and I had to go look it up it is not as cool as it sounds like just some like mad max level shit. It's just old people in a caravan.Unknown Speaker 20:34Right. I didn't know I didn't know that they were self identifying at this point. I thought it was still a slumUnknown Speaker 20:42mobile homes. We can. I'll tell you now. There's lovely little locations down there in Canberra outside the Governor General time in year alumna. wanna pick up your mobile I'm and you might want to go in there for a couple of daysUnknown Speaker 21:04Hang on a sec. Where did she learn to give a political space like this Like this phrasing there is there is so much that politicians in Australia I think could really learn from like she's really i don't know i don't i it's weird to be positive about this. I know I know. But it's like she's actually really like a pacing is rolled gold.Unknown Speaker 21:25Yeah, there's definitely never been any problems in history with people who have famously great orators. She finishes with a couple of days. I'm like, I think she's watching a lot of 90 sketch comedy.Unknown Speaker 21:42Victoria, or Tasmania.Unknown Speaker 21:46And you're a great Nomad.Unknown Speaker 21:47Hang on a sec.Unknown Speaker 21:48Change happens the moment you stand up.Unknown Speaker 21:53It's not really this is more aesthetic. I just noticed the rings around her eyes match her topUnknown Speaker 22:05Because it also it's very cool to be appealing directly to all people and asking them to stand up.Dan Ilic 22:10Yeah, they've earned the right to sit down. That's why they haven't mobile homes. TheyUnknown Speaker 22:14spend all their time sitting down. The worst time in history to tell old people to go travelling around. It's like they're high risk. What are you doing? Yeah,Unknown Speaker 22:24like you get disqualified from leading the grind Nomad movement if you are still dyeing your hair as well.Unknown Speaker 22:32Wouldn't it be fabulous, you know, tomorrow morning, David Hurley wakes up. Nice 1400 grey nomads in their mobile campus. Pull it up. They're not done Russell drive? Yeah. You know, because parking might be tight, you might have to park place together.Dan Ilic 22:52Hang on a sec. This woman has clearly never ever been to camera and has no idea about how much space there is to haveUnknown Speaker 23:02doesn't try to park that is then bet it's gonna be an absolute debacleUnknown Speaker 23:08you know across the road it's called blocking the road you know who else you know who else is big truck drivers and stuff? I often got cabins in their big semies Yeah, I got Kevin's and I'm sure I'm sure they'd be a few grey nomads down there because we're social people out we we like we like to have a chat with each other i mean i'm sure they'd be great nomads pull up that would help you know help a truck he that was also packed there. Make a toasted sandwich andDan Ilic 23:37I'm gonna show you she implying there's going to be some kind of grind Nomad trucky key party is this what is this? What's going on here?Unknown Speaker 23:44It's about toasties dan be filthy.Unknown Speaker 23:47I think you're only allowed to do that in Queensland.Unknown Speaker 23:50Maybe you know, people come together to do what you need to do. Probably only need to be there for two or three days Oregon and Of course thatUnknown Speaker 24:01I actually have forgotten what this is about. But what why does she want everyone to go to camera like well what's the blockade for us? Yeah it's been going for nearly a minute and a half and she hasn't really gotten to that point.Dan Ilic 24:12I think she's blocked I think she wants to do a blockade about the the lockdown laws in Victoria I thinkUnknown Speaker 24:20hasn't said that no actually hasn't said that.Unknown Speaker 24:23At the moment she just seems to be asking for some friendsUnknown Speaker 24:27it's really it's about testing she's actually quite literalUnknown Speaker 24:31misunderstandingUnknown Speaker 24:33that all of a sudden these 1400 key events packed in there done Russell drive by and died earlier visitUnknown Speaker 24:42Hang on a sec. wasUnknown Speaker 24:46like Okay, why are we fixated on on David Hurley like he doesn't have a legislative agendaDan Ilic 24:51yet. I don't know if you know in in common law, Dave Hurley is the queen of Australia and he says happens in Australia because he's he's Australia's queen.Unknown Speaker 25:02I think he I think he was given extra powers when Scott Martin started wearing heli hats.Karen Brewer 25:14next minute, they'd be a few hundred semies driving into camera. Then of course down in, down in Victoria they get Linda Linda DCU governor Li gonna wake up tomorrow morning and find this bloody 700 campervans theUnknown Speaker 25:34power thick. Can we please place her accent because when she's been cute, she's like an ace London. Ah, yeah. And then a lot sometimes it's like a Queensland con accent or maybe I just think that because she's shoutingDan Ilic 25:47and clearly in exile in New Zealand, so she's mixed up this entire thing.Unknown Speaker 25:51Yeah, can anyone else has anyone else picked any I picked out any accents. I feel likeUnknown Speaker 25:55it's very similar to like the chim chiminey song from Mary Poppins.Unknown Speaker 26:00Yeah, nice London. Yeah. chimeneas as they call it in London. That is Yeah.Dan Ilic 26:07And I think the arithmetic is strange. Why would 1400 camp events can't turn up to camera that any 710 up to Government House in Melbourne?Unknown Speaker 26:16What is this year three maths?Unknown Speaker 26:18Yeah.Dan Ilic 26:20A 1400 camera, camera and 710 afterUnknown Speaker 26:28workingDan Ilic 26:29heresy theorists will it take to topple the government?Unknown Speaker 26:33It only took 300 to defeat the Trojans. He needs 1400s debate David Hill.Unknown Speaker 26:40So does she actually have a platform? Is there any chance of this like happening of all the great nomads listening and showing up? Is this like a possibility? I think the first mistake she made was putting it on the internet. Yeah.Dan Ilic 26:53If you really wanted people to watch this, who are gamer nomads, you should have put it on ABC News.Unknown Speaker 27:01But you remember if she does have a following you remember when like, you know, people needed to be charismatic and articulate now it's just a crazy lunch lady screaming at yeahDan Ilic 27:12it's mixed. No, that's the that's the future Mike. That's the future.Unknown Speaker 27:16I found that a really soothing kind of had a nice rhythm cadence to it really, I'm kind of sad. It's overDan Ilic 27:22MSR asUnknown Speaker 27:25you respect her ability to do a pregnant pause. But just as a as an orator like I thought her ability to just wipe for the audience. She was pausing for applause that wasn't there. It's quite it's quite a second.Unknown Speaker 27:41CauseDan Ilic 27:43our guest for tonight is a courageous man. He is fighting the government to stop a coal mine on one hand, and he's representing a passionate group of eight teenager activists on the other from equity generation lawyers. It's David Banda. David. Welcome to irrational fear.Unknown Speaker 27:58Thanks for having me. David,Dan Ilic 28:00when we were kids, we were really into avocado and toast. But this new generation of teens is so different. What the hell are they all about?Unknown Speaker 28:10They're incredible. I can't even begin to explain. We did a little bit of TV yesterday, ABC, which I think some people watching,Dan Ilic 28:17right? Oh, that's great. All the great nomads are over a relative,Unknown Speaker 28:21and they like one of the one on Ava and she just killed it. Absolutely amazing, completely articulate across all these climate science stuff. And then and followed it, followed it up in the drum and just gave this amazing presentation about how climate change is going to impact her and, and her peers. And it's like, Ah, yeah, I wasn't doing that when I was 17.Dan Ilic 28:43Absolutely. So tell us about the injunction that you're trying to get past to try and stop this coal mine in northern New South Wales and how how this whole it came about for you?Unknown Speaker 28:53Yeah, so it's an injunction to stop the environment minister from making a decision to approve this coal mine extension. We can get that injunction under something called the Constitution. You may have heard of that.Dan Ilic 29:06I've been watching a lot of Q anon videos I'm well versed in.Unknown Speaker 29:11Yeah, yeah. So it's a bit more than the vibe, but it actually says something about it in that. So the. So these kids are pretty smart. So they say that the minister can't make that decision because she will breach her duty of care to younger people to vulnerable people. And that duty of care sounds to us like the fact that she kind of gave up because of the climate change impacts that it will have.Dan Ilic 29:36Do you need to find more vulnerable sounding teens because the teens you had on television were incredibly articulate. Maybe you should just find some ones who just can't talk very well.David Barnden 29:47Look, yeah, we could do that. But it's a class action. So it's it, amazingly enough, includes every single person under the age of 18 in the world. Really? Wow. IDan Ilic 29:59didn't. I didn't To stand like and when you say when you talk I always wonder about class actions and how you can sign up to be part of a class like what's the maximum size of the class you can you can be part of to do an actionUnknown Speaker 30:11particularly a class in the sense where you like they've just got out of class actionUnknown Speaker 30:18to enjoy the idea that there is some like really very hardcore conservative teenagers somewhere in the world who likeUnknown Speaker 30:25not not realUnknown Speaker 30:26not happening on real plays. They're like, Oh, I'm in the class actionDan Ilic 30:32all these fossil fuel running that's been paying for my tuckshop lunches. Dive you've been working in this kind of kind of warfare active activism for a while. Is that an unfair term to use? I just saw you grimaceUnknown Speaker 30:46there. Ah, yeah, yeah, look, I'm taking umbrage right now I believe. Both No, look, it's it's completely it's just the people who normally is the law or they're not even people. They're they're usually corporations. They used to hate Cash, they've got a newDan Ilic 31:01strong new stronger word here than that. David if you want to.Unknown Speaker 31:05Yeah, look, I can I can, but it's going public, right?Dan Ilic 31:07Yeah.Unknown Speaker 31:10So so it's probably just strange. It's probably strange to the people in power. It's like, oh, what really? Other people can use the law when the law exists to help everyone? Oh, yeah. Like we're used to seeing kids down the coal mines not something.Unknown Speaker 31:26I saw you grimace before and you know, obviously warfare is is a slum. It's absolutely a slur. You're up against the government in this matter. And the government is supposed to comport itself as a model litigants, quote, unquote, they're supposed to sort of be, you know, always can conduct themselves very, very well in very good faith in in a court in any matter. Have they done so?Unknown Speaker 31:50Are they quiet? They're not saying anything publicly. We have correspondence with the the representatives of the Minister and the lovely Yes. HowDan Ilic 32:00How do they do? How do they correspond to a common a horse with a scroll?Unknown Speaker 32:06Please, we're going to build a commonUnknown Speaker 32:10look, funnily enough, they do use email. And it's very nice to receive those those PDFs. Let'sDan Ilic 32:15see, you've been I mean, you've been kind of working in this space for a while in terms of class actions around climate. Have you had much success in the past?Unknown Speaker 32:25We're in that sweet spot. We've got a couple of actions on foot. We haven't lost anything yet. All potential though. Yeah, that's right. So they look that that'll we'll see what happens. We've got a trial coming up in November for a case for a young man in Brisbane against his superannuation fund for not disclosing climate change risks to him and not incorporating sort of a process to weed out risky investments. Yeah.Unknown Speaker 32:53This is slightly dicey territory, potentially and so you can tell me to get back but but Guess you know, we're at a point in history where there's a certain like, like, this is pretty cutting edge kind of cases that you're doing. And it's going to become more common in the future, but it's not super common right now. And so I imagined that you would encounter a real range of views from the judiciary. Like, are there states that are better or worse to launch? Actually no levels of courts that are better or worse, to launch action in for that reason?Unknown Speaker 33:29Yeah, it looks it's a judicial lottery. Every member of the judiciary has their expertise and their experience. And that's probably also say about that. So I don't know. I have no idea. We'll take care of the kids coming into court forgive my ignorance of the system like will they be in court with you at any point? No court court doesn't exist anymore. It's like just everyone in front of a green screen with like the coat of arms behind it and look if they lean back too far. disappearing arms and like there would be no wardrobe or keys or something. So there'll be all online.Unknown Speaker 34:06So they just send in a tick tock video.Unknown Speaker 34:13So is that how long How long is it gonna be like that just until the pandemics over a year? I don't know the sort of extending it indefinitely. things down in Victoria where we follow this class action are pretty slow. They they do deal with urgent or more urgent things quicker, but we don't have a return date yet, which means we don't have like this, this first court date to do timetabling and we don't have a judge yet. SoDan Ilic 34:38yeah, we'll say with this particular case, what's like the most amazing kind of story or things happen to you whilst kind of putting this together? What have you been surprised byUnknown Speaker 34:50just just just these just the people we represent like so there's eight kids. They're all absolutely articulate, passionate. It's fair to say my view view of the world has changed over the last three weeks or four weeks now. Well, you know, what?Unknown Speaker 35:05just justUnknown Speaker 35:06just the passion, the awareness how if these kids literally the future and these are the latest that that will have, were in good hands, the the connected sort of, to their emotions, they're connected family, they're connected to community. They're absolutely straight ahead of anyone. You know, most people in their 20s, early 30s 40s 50s it's absolutely privileged to deal with them. Yeah, how did they find you dad? Like I wouldn't have known how to find a lawyer.Unknown Speaker 35:39Yeah, look, I think they find me quite charming.Unknown Speaker 35:42Yes, they love that dad joke humour. Yeah,Unknown Speaker 35:47well, yeah. You know, lo, etc.Dan Ilic 35:51Yeah, they found David on tik tok. Yeah.Unknown Speaker 35:55I do hang out on Tick Tock. I did. Yeah. That's what what one should do. Yeah, no, no. So so you know, we're lawyers, we advise people.Dan Ilic 36:04We have contacts that then we got in contact with them through the school strikes the climate network. Right. So through that what that does is that's a pretty solid network. Now they're kind of presidents all over the world for individuals and groups of people taking their governments to task over climate action between Denmark and more recently in Ireland, and I'm going to be talking with the se moseby. Tomorrow about their fight, talking about taking the tar strike to to sue the Australian Government in the lack of climate action in the UN in Geneva. Can you take this class action any further than the Victorian supreme court?Unknown Speaker 36:37So it's in the Victorian registry of the federal court? We we just hope to win and we hope that that's it but you know, it could be a few appealed to the full federal court and then appealed to the High Court that's that's the route of appeals. We can't really go the UN I'm afraid. BIT bit of out of out of out jurisdiction really.Dan Ilic 36:59Now, there are plenty of People who, I guess, would say they have a sense of grief about the enormous loss that they've witnessed over the last even just a few years when it comes to climate change. What do you say to them about organising to join a class action for climate action? What How do you build oneUnknown Speaker 37:20more people technically already in it. We we love people to sign up and register on our on our website just to give support to the students bringing the action. So that's a positive step they can take. But there's lots of positive things people can do. And so these students are on the side organising protests, they're, they're involved in the school strike for climate movement. They wonderful thing they you know, they bring their parents along, in many cases. We speak to the parents unlike me, I didn't really know much about climate change beforehand. And that turns out it's a secret important. So it's a you know, just Just spread the word and and society's starting to change.Dan Ilic 38:04Is it bizarre that, you know, the students are teaching the older people all about the climate issues? They seem to be so connected? Is that a? Is that a that's a weird disconnect for you.Unknown Speaker 38:15Yeah, yes, it is actually. But in some ways, not surprising. They're, they're teaching us stuff as well, just just around really, really good protocols on how to introduce yourself and, you know, they're always you know, standard Welcome to Country, this sort of stuff. They're amazing. They're, they're way more in contact with sort of issues in society. And, and it's great to learn from them. So yeah, it's amazing. What do you rate your chances out of 10? So when I Well, it's 10 out of 10.Dan Ilic 38:51Is there a school is there like a sports bed app or something I can put?Unknown Speaker 38:56Then look, probably it probably isUnknown Speaker 39:00If you find it, let me know. Oh, that's the I don't I don't think I could do that.Unknown Speaker 39:06David, we, um, we covered this story on on our podcast for the ABC, the signal as well. And I think one of the most interesting things that I took away from it was that if you are successful or you know, whatever your chances are if you are successful, it has the potential to kind of lead to other projects being cancelled, it creates such a creates a very, very strong precedent in law. Is that part of what made you want to do this case?Unknown Speaker 39:38Yeah, so you go to court and your your focus is on the case at hand and the rights that you are on trucks getting so this is about one particular decision, but yeah, absolutely. So so the the duty of care is around the climate impacts. And so so because that's intimately linked with the Judy, we say that The minister has it's it's pretty, you know, it's not a difficult step to say, Well, the next decision that the minister might need to make with with a similar project with similar climate impacts Absolutely. You know, so so we we could be seeing the the start of something big if we if we win something big. I mean to say something that is really helpful for to give them the climate so fingers crossed. And gene, do you get the feeling you're making a lot of enemies with inside the fossil fuel lobby and have people been staking out your car, pouring petrol over it? It's quite a long way away from my house. Not that I know. Look, Andrew, fillet and Kevin had a bit of a crack at us last night on Sky News. That's probably not unexpected, but it's a good sign. It's a good time.Unknown Speaker 40:55We probably get a lot of signups because ofUnknown Speaker 40:57that. So yeah. Thank you. Matthew?Unknown Speaker 41:01Yeah, you know, they were irrelevant. Don't listen to him anymore.Dan Ilic 41:05And David, other teenagers, are they good for a good fee legal fees? Are they bankrolling it?Unknown Speaker 41:14No, no Well look, the way it works that teenagers can actually bring a case in the federal courts, but so they're brought up by their litigation Guardian who's an 85 year old man. Oh, he doesn't have much cash either. So so we are doing it for free.Dan Ilic 41:30Let's just say the Catholic Church is acid rich.Unknown Speaker 41:36Yeah, look in the individual man's asset pool asDan Ilic 41:39well. David, thank you so much for sharing how you're trying to do this gigantic, epic battle. I wish you luck. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. And before we go tonight, I've got one more thing to share a Monday in this feed. You'll hear me and Kevin Rudd on our special monthly version of irrational fear called the greatest moral podcast of our generation. Kevin and I, we spoke about climate change where we are where we're going and there's plenty of Rupert Murdoch bashing along the way. I hate to say it, but after about an hour with Kevin, I may think I'd like the guy again. Yeah, it was. It was very challenging for me. It was really smart and insightful conversation. If you're an AWS poll nerd, you will love it. I just don't know if it can live up to the opener though. Here is the opener that Jacob and Robbie McGregor method.Unknown Speaker 42:24Despite global warming, rational fear is adding a little more harm with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.Unknown Speaker 42:36This is calledUnknown Speaker 42:37Don't be fried the heat waves and drove greatest mass extinction.Unknown Speaker 42:44We're facing a manmade disasterUnknown Speaker 42:46podcast, climate credit,Unknown Speaker 42:50generation.Unknown Speaker 42:53All of this with global warming and that a lot of it's a hoax. But write a small podcast aboutUnknown Speaker 42:58generation Boom,Dan Ilic 43:01for sure is an episode of gumpert coming to your feed right here on Monday Big thanks to Jacob brown and Robin for that. Also a big thank you to our theme Angus for tonight. Angela Lapierre, Mike Goldstein, Louis harbour and David Bandon. Let's get some plugs away. What have you got to plug in?Unknown Speaker 43:19Oh, ah,Unknown Speaker 43:20I've got a few gigs coming up. But I'm not used to plugging them because it's been so long since comedy's happened. So I'll just say, Yeah, I make a podcast with the ABC called the signal every weekday morning, and it'sDan Ilic 43:32very good. And Mike Goldstein.Unknown Speaker 43:35You mentioned it before the phone hacks podcast me and a few other comedians smartphones go through the content we find that they're in and post on each other socials and hopefully live comedy comes back one day and I'll be on a stage somewhere near you. And Dave Bandon, what do you want to plugUnknown Speaker 43:53a small class action on behalf of eight kids in a non good equity generation boys calm Direct forUnknown Speaker 44:00I'm loving it.Unknown Speaker 44:06Oh nothing Dan still still doing a radio show every day. But yet Listen, I don't know. Hey guys,Dan Ilic 44:12Big thanks Bertha foundation our Patreon supporters post producer Jacob round on the tepanyaki timeline contributors in this episode with Jay Leno jokes include Gary Bradbury red pocket Dave bluestein dan Denver Golf Club Hey, Franklin Harrison Engstrom. Big thanks to Kate Holdsworth, please go get a go neutral sticker or chip in on the Patreon and please give us a review on iTunes. Until next week, there's always something to be scared of. Goodbye.Transcribed by https://otter.aiA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears. Here is the link :TASMANIANS —to tell Senator Jacqui Lambie to allow those stuck in detention to keep their phonessenatorlambie.com.au/advise_jacqui?recruiter_id=818348On the podcast this week —Amy RemeikisEddie PerfectNauroze AneesLewis Hobbaand Dan IlicPlus an interview with THE SAUCY NUGGS guy Ander Christensen.This podcast is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO OUR PATREON https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.This podcast is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.G’day Fearmongers —On the podcast this week Bertha Fellow Linh Do and I are joined by friends of the show, James Colleyand Alice FraserThey downed tools from their own various TV shows and Podcasts to bring some ridiculousness to the podcast. We cover the NBA, RNC, Aldi’s move to 100% renewables, and Boris Johnson’s culture war on The Proms. And we ask NSW Minister for Energy & the Environment, Matt Kean about Koalas, chlamydia, conservation, and working in the environment space with a federal government hooked on fossil fuels.A Rational Fear. SPEAK UP FOR CLIMATE:In September, the Australian Youth Climate Coalition and Seed Mob are running a campaign to get families and friends to talk about climate change and raise money for those organisations. It’s called Speak Up For Climate. If you’re a young person, get your friends and family involved.PATREON 💸⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜ 56.6%Thanks so much to our new Patreon subscribers this week, we gave you a big shoutout on the podcast. So far we’re covering about 56.6% of the costs. If we get to 100% of our costs we’ll be able to start paying our guests, and create more fun things. Chip in, there’s heaps of rewards: watch the show being recorded live, get the ad-free version of the podcast, chat with the creative team on Discord, see videos first, and hear interviews before anyone else, but most importantly you ensure that we can keep making A Rational Fear in all its forms.A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO THE LEBANON RED CROSS: https://www.supportlrc.app/donate/📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/G’day Fearmongers —Dan Ilic here with a new podcast, fresh from the AstraZeneca podcast labs to your device.A Rational Fear On the podcast this week: Just The Gist’s Rosie Waterland, author, thought leader and trouble maker Jamila Rizvi, and climate campaigner and fellow Bertha Fellow Linh Do.If you live in the , Happy Democracy Sausage day to you!NTWe talk with Monica Tanfrom Repower NT about how renewables has managed to get on the agenda of all three major parties in the top end of town in the Top End.NEW MONTHLY PODCAST:Linh Do and I are starting a new monthly podcast on the A Rational Fear feed. Long-form conversations with leaders in climate change from around Asia-Pacific. It’s called: The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Tim. So naturally the first conversation will be with former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.PATREON 💸⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ 49%It costs a bit of money to make each episode of A Rational Fear — so far we’re at about 49% of the costs of running it. If we get to 100% I’ll be able to start paying Lewis some money, or put it towards buying a coal mine in Queensland . If you enjoy our podcast, funny emails and important climate change conversations chip in here like a good sovereign citizen.THANKSThanks to Rode, Jacob Round, Rupert Degas, and the Bertha FoundationFOLLOW A RATIONAL FEAR ON SOCIAL MEDIATWITTER. FACEBOOK. INTSAGRAM.A Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO THE LEBANON RED CROSS: https://www.supportlrc.app/donate/📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/Guests — Dan IlicLewis HobbaSami ShahBec MelroseAntonia Juharsz (US)Paddy Manning (The Saturday Paper)Yianni Agisiloau and KamahlA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🤑 CHIP IN TO THE LEBANON RED CROSS: https://www.supportlrc.app/donate/📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears. Dan Ilic here with this week’s podcast polished up for your ears. Lewis and I are joined on the pod by Michelle Brasier (Mad As Hell) Greg Larsen(The Grub Podcast) as well as Dr. Matthew Rimmer from QUT’s law school.A Rational FearWe celebrate Climate Case IrelandThey took their government to court in 2017 over their weak greenhouse gas emissions targets and won! If we did that in Australia, we’d be stoned with lumps of coal.. We unload on boss, Daniel Penman for offering to pay for his franchisees COVID19 fines, and a whole trailer full of other dodgy things he believes.Jim’s Mowing And we marinate in a You may have seen clips in your feeds of an Australian journalist interviewing Trump in a way we haven’t seen before — Jonathan Swan / Norman Swan love-in.by asking questions. You can see the full 37min interview here. The whole piece is incredibly entertaining, (if you’re a masochist.)THANKS:Big thanks to Jacob Round for editing the Podcast and thank you to Patreon subscribers who help pay for Jacob and hosting.This podcast and newsletter is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.If you can, donate $20 to the Lebanese Red Cross.See you in your inbox next week with some more terrible news.Dan IlicA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am Dan Ilic, I am a lawful man sending you a lawful email from the Principality of Bondi Beach. Joining Lewis and I this week is comedian, writer, performer, Vidya Rajan, and from the podcast Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps, Josh Szeps We ask the tough questions: Are tall people are more susceptible to Covid-19? Is it worth becoming a sovereign citizen? And how we are dealing with Climate Grief?.We’re also joined by from the . She explains to us the potential changes to one of the few pieces of Commonwealth environmental legislations, the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act.Leanne MinshullAustralia InstituteA Rational Fear on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFearSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.