The Pivot

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland “I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Anchor HymnsSally Lloyd-JonesNeil YoungUniversity of TennesseePam TillisJohn HiattNACA (National Association of Campus Activities)Michael W. SmithSteven Curtis ChapmanRich MullinsTwenty Feet From StardomC.S. Lewis *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ashley Cleveland’s InstagramAshley Cleveland’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew OsengaAnchor HymnsSandra McCrackenCharlie PeacockSamford University  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen “Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The New Respects bandBen Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine MullenBen Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine MullenAnchor HymnsBrooke FraserCarly Bannister“God of This City” by Chris TomlinTyler Perry *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jasmine Mullen’s websiteJasmine Mullen’s FacebookJasmine Mullen’s InstagramJasmine Mullen’s X  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Writer and speaker Liuan Huska joins this episode of The Pivot to share her studies on anthropology and her venture into journalism, as well as her book on reconciling chronic pain and illness with faith. Liuan shares about her family’s year-long travels through South America, her work with Christian conservation organization A Rocha, and reflects on how to find wholeness in the middle of life’s challenges. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I just got more and more concerned about environmental issues, just being a human in this world today and noticing things and being sad about pollution and the way that humans have impacted creation in a negative way.” - Liuan Huska“I had this image of God where He has to act in this certain way for me to maintain a relationship with Him. I had to let go of my images of who God is and what God does in the world.” - Liuan Huska“If we pray and it matters to God, but it doesn’t actually make the tangible difference we thought it was going to make, then what difference does it make to engage with God and continue this personal relationship where we expect God to respond?” - Liuan Huska “We have the ability to make a life for ourselves in different places and we can figure things out. You can go anywhere and really plug in and find community.” - Liuan Huska “It has sometimes just hurt my heart to see that caring for the earth sometimes seems to be treated like an enemy of the church politically sometimes. We are called so clearly in the Scripture to care for the world, to care for the earth. And you look around you and think, This is a gift from God, why would we not want to steward it well?” - Andrew Osenga  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Hurting Yet Whole by Liuan HuskaA Rocha InternationalLiuan Huska’s Substack, Becoming Whole University of ChicagoChristianity TodayU.S. Environmental Protection AgencyDisappointment with God by Philip YanceyParker PalmerMy South American Classroom by Liuan Huska Catherine McNielEugene Peterson Behold the Lamb of God 2025   *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Liuan Huska’s websiteLiuan Huska’s FacebookLiuan Huska’s Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Beth Felker Jones, writer and professor of theology at Northern Seminary, and the mastermind behind the Church Blogmatics Substack, where she explores theological themes through storytelling. Beth shares about her journey to becoming a professor, her approach to teaching topics like sexuality to her students and what she’s learned by listening to their stories, and her perspective on the personal nature of our relationship with God.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember quite early in my life wishing I had a cool, dramatic conversion story. I knew that was a thing Christians had and that they were beautiful to tell, and I didn’t have one. I think it took me a while to grow up in the truth, and that’s okay.” - Beth Felker Jones“While dramatic conversion stories are really beautiful, so is the way God draws us near in quiet and domestic settings. It doesn’t have to be fireworks for God to be at work. It’s the same God.” - Beth Felker Jones “Family is maybe the number one form of evangelism.” - Andrew Osenga“I love how stories draw us in, and I think that Scripture is primarily a story, a true story. God is at work in love for the world, and Scripture invites us to live in that story and to imagine our lives through that story.” - Beth Felker Jones“We learn from [stories]. We learn to consider the lives of others, and we learn about love and grace and the way sin works in the world.” - Beth Felker Jones“I think a lot of people walk out the door of the church because they’ve heard songs that tell them that God is one thing that He’s not, or that doesn’t give space for their suffering or doubt.” - Andrew Osenga “I learn from my students here. They tell me beautiful stories about falling to the bottom, about their lives falling apart, about a deep hurt that they never thought would come, and about how God has been with them and uses them to bear witness through those troubles.” - Beth Felker Jones“I suspect that every culture has its inherent beauties and its characteristic tendencies to sin. We can claim the beauties and fight the sin. But culture by itself isn’t just this big, bad thing. Often, it’s beautiful. God loves people and the world and art and thought and all the things that make up culture. God doesn’t throw those out, God redeems them.” - Beth Felker Jones “I don’t think it’s an accident that the Bible uses marriage, human marriage, as a metaphor for our relationship with God. It’s not the only metaphor, but there are some real ways in which we can learn about one from the other.” - Beth Felker Jones“I am not of the school which thinks the point of theology is to logically prove all things and line everything up in neat rows. I think theology is more like a poem in that we’re using a really beautiful thing, language, to point to something beyond God, who cannot be fully captured in our language, but who nonetheless has chosen words to communicate with us.” - Beth Felker Jones Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Why I Am Protestant by Beth Felker JonesChurch Blogmatics Substack (Check out Andrew’s guest appearance on Beth’s Substack in December!) Northern SeminaryKirk CameronC.S. LewisPsalmsG.K. ChestertonPope Gregory I (Gregory the Great) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Beth Felker Jones’ websiteBeth Felker Jones’ FacebookBeth Felker Jones’ XBeth Felker Jones’ Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Pastor and author Claude Atcho joins The Pivot to discuss the challenging transition from a large, established church to a smaller, new gathering. He explains how this move required him to shed the role of a seasoned veteran and embrace starting over as a newbie. Claude shares insights into the difficulties of driving significant change for one’s family, especially when the decision seems counterintuitive on paper, and offers advice on prioritizing learning and growth over the comfort of established competence. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember as a kid really enjoying going to the library, just enjoying the fact that people are creative and they’ve taken the time to capture stories, write them down, or tell somebody else’s story.” - Claude Atcho “Books mark different transitions in my life.” - Claude Atcho “Growing up, I loved sports, and came to the realization that most young boys have; Oh, being a pro athlete is probably not in the cards for me. And what does that mean? How do I experience that transition of my future, this taste of realism? How do I find my place in things?” - Claude Atcho “I wanted to write [my book] for Christians who wanted to think about both literature and how literature can form us and how story matters and can form us, particularly when we put stories in conversation with a story of the kingdom.” - Claude Atcho “There’s something unique about story and language and it can do something in us that sometimes other things can’t do.” - Claude Atcho“I think I can use competence as a shield to protect myself from feeling out of control or vulnerable. Starting as a learner, I had to be present to everything in a new way, and I think that was good for me. I’m still learning to do that.” - Claude Atcho “Major transitions happen in people’s lives all the time, I think I was just not aware of that. I feel like, Oh, I’ll do this forever. No I won’t. I hope to have a good long run wherever I go, but this is happening all the time.” - Claude Atcho“Rhythms of relationship with Jesus are a way to remind ourselves that this is not a place to be ultimately comfortable, but that we find comfort with Him.” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Reading Black Books by Claude Atcho Rhythms of Faith by Claude Atcho The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde Chicago BullsSeattle MarinersDr. Henry CloudD. Michael Lindsay*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Claude Atcho’s websiteClaude Atcho’s XClaude Atcho’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Andrew Torrance, Professor of Theology and Co-Director of the Logos Institute for Analytic and Exegetical Theology. Andrew shares about his work with the Scientists in Congregations program that opens up avenues for conversations between faith and scientific communities to learn how they can work together for a better understanding of the world and of our place in it.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Science] is not a threat to faith, but it’s something that can really be an important part of the life of the church.” - Andrew Torrance“There’s ways in which science actually exposes the many mysteries that confront the human understanding rather than resolving all of them.” - Andrew Torrance “What does it mean to be a human that’s been created in the image of God? What are the ways in which human beings are unique in the world?” - Andrew Torrance“I just love the outdoors. I think that’s what really attracted me towards science, just really trying to understand the natural world in which we find ourselves.” - Andrew Torrance “How do we think about the relationship between the brain and understanding? Are these two things distinct from one another? There are a lot of psychologists today that want to say we’re purely physical beings, and there’s some that want to recognize that our brain is accompanied by a mind. Human consciousness and our understanding isn’t reducible to the physical brain processes. There’s unique qualities that distinguish the two.” - Andrew Torrance Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:St. Andrews University Joe RoganScientists in Congregations Søren KierkegaardKarl Barth*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:Andrew’s St. Andrews University page Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this powerful episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with fellow Christian musician and songwriter Ross King. In this interview (recorded before he lost his wife Staci to cancer), Ross shares how significant traumas—including his father’s drowning and his wife’s cancer diagnosis—have profoundly changed his loyalties to his own mindset. He discusses the nuanced process of grief, not just for what is lost, but for “the life we wanted,” and the challenging honesty of songwriting through profound suffering. This candid discussion explores how unexpected challenges can lead to difficult but ultimately redemptive personal adjustments, fostering deeper relationships and a re-evaluation of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We are both married to cancer patients. Both of our wives have aggressive, advanced cancer. I don’t share a lot about that, we’ve needed to kind of keep it in our house, but it’s been encouraging for me to watch you wrestle with it publicly. Cancer changes everything.” - Andrew Osenga“Yeah, I think cancer is afraid of God. But right now, it doesn’t seem like that’s causing any difference in what we’re going through. For me, it was returning to; I really want to be close to God. That’s something I would have said as a kid, but then I probably got too cool to say that. And now I want to say it again, because I really kind of miss that guy.” - Ross King“I really want closeness to God, but I’m telling you, I’m way too weak and fragile and broken and scared to beg for that, whatever it takes.” - Ross King“I have this theory that heavily traumatizing things do one of two things to a person’s soul, spirit, psyche. And those two things are on a spectrum, they’re not black and white, but on the two ends of the spectrum are, I will never let that happen to me ever again. I’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen to me ever. And this is on the other side, for those who are listening and not seeing on the other end is, Oh, this is why people are so crazy and wounded. I have empathy.” - Ross King“We, in addition to grieving the actual thing that’s happening, we have to grieve the death of the life we wanted. Because it’s a real thing. And no one knows how to help us with that, right?” - Ross King“If your marriage falls apart, there’s a divorce proceeding. If someone dies, there’s a funeral. If there’s a loss of a job, there is a severance package or unemployment. This particular loss, there is no system for it. And so you have to weep and learn to [deal with the notion];  I wanted my life to be different.” - Ross King Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Leonard, the Lonely Astronaut album by Andrew OsengaAl GoreMitt Romney*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ross King’s websiteRoss King’s YouTubeRoss King’s InstagramRoss King’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with Marty Solomon, president of Impact Campus Ministries and the co-creator, executive producer, and cohost of The BEMA Podcast. Marty discusses his passion for working with college students and how diverse academic perspectives helped him construct a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of the Bible that is true to its origins. He also explores what an unfiltered version of Christianity entails and emphasizes the importance of building personal theology around the principle of loving others. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you are a college kid or you’ve been in your early twenties, you know what it’s like to be in this place of, What am I going to do with my life? What am I going to do next? Who am I? And the truth is, I’m still asking those questions at forty-six. I’m asking them in a different way. I have a lot more responsibility.” - Andrew Osenga“One day I was just like, God, I just want to pursue this discipleship stuff. I need people who are old enough that they’re not at home, so their parents can’t tell them no. I want to do this without permission slips, but I also need somebody who doesn’t have a mortgage and a marriage and three children and a career. And I just realized, Oh man, there’s a window there, and it’s college students. That’s when I jumped into campus ministry.” - Marty Solomon“I’m a teacher by trade, I’m a teacher by giftedness. I’m going to approach ministry as a teacher/preacher.” - Marty Solomon“We’re looking at the Bible through a historically informed lens. I want to ask the question, ‘What did the author mean when they wrote this? What did the audience hear when they heard it?’ I believe that’s the inspired conversation. That’s where the good stuff is.” - Marty Solomon“We’re probably used to a Christianity that’s been pulled through about twenty different filters. Not that it’s changed it or bastardized it beyond recognition, but it has definitely colored it and shaped it and probably twisted it in ways you’ve found confusing, hurtful, convoluted, distasteful, uncompelling.” - Marty Solomon“We are wounded and we are wary and we want something more than these crazy, in depth, complex, classical systems we’ve been handed.” - Marty Solomon“We’re going to learn in 400 years how we were wrong about half of it. We’re doing the best job we can, stewarding what we’ve dug out of the dirt.” - Marty Solomon “God asks us to be known for our love and we are not. We think we are, but we know we’re not. The reason we’re not loving people is because our theology does not facilitate loving other people. We’ve got to go back to the source and go, Are we reading our Bible correctly? Because if we’re not, maybe we should have built a different theology.” - Marty Solomon  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The BEMA PodcastThe Pivot episode with Pete Enns Impact Campus Ministries Caedmon’s CallAndrew Peterson University of IdahoWashington State University Ray Vander LaanThe Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Marty Solomon’s websiteMarty Solomon’s FacebookMarty Solomon’s XMarty Solomon’s InstagramMarty Solomon’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this week’s episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with designer, author, and cohost of Fixer to Fabulous, Jenny Marrs. Jenny reflects on the unexpected path to her current career, emphasizing how learning through trial and error shaped her understanding that there’s no single right way to do things. She shares the importance of slowing down, acknowledging past experiences, and approaching life with an open-handed mindset. It’s about recognizing that every good thing, every opportunity, every phase, can shift, and we need to be okay with that, trusting that what comes next, even after challenges, can be truly remarkable. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Anybody who’s ever renovated or built a new home, you think you’ve got everything figured out and you move in and a month or two later, you’re like, Oh, I wish I would have done this. Everybody does that; we did that every two years. I got to learn what worked, how homes functioned best and still looked beautiful.” - Jenny Marrs“I think a front porch is so important to a home, the idea that fifty years ago, people would sit and wave to their neighbors and stop by and chat. That no longer really happens. We love our front porch, it’s the place where we start our day most often. You get outside for a minute and breathe and sit in the rocking chair. It’s that idea of connecting with being outside, connecting with people.” - Jenny Marrs “Look out the window right now. I have my windows open and the birds are chirping and you can’t help but slow down for a second when you’re walking past. Even those thirty seconds are so important for resetting our frazzled pace of life.” - Jenny Marrs“Technology has kind of taken us away from the act of lingering and abiding in the presence of God. I mean, you can open your phone and search anything and you get an instantaneous answer. We have to step away from the busy and the frazzled and the hurried lifestyle that we all lead and it’s really hard to do. Otherwise, you’re losing this connection to your soul and to God and to each other.” - Jenny Marrs“I have learned to be open-handed with everything, because there’s seasons when you have to close the door on things that are really important to you or you feel passionate about, and you can’t imagine closing the door. But if for some reason God said it’s over, I will mourn it and grieve it but I will know that on the other side is the beauty and the abundance of being obedient to God's calling.” - Jenny Marrs  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Newell BrandsWalmart The Berry FarmMarrs Mercantile  *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jenny Marrs’ websiteJenny Marrs’ FacebookJenny Marrs’ InstagramFixer to Fabulous YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.