The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking. A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes. Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation. [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days. [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools. [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process. [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck. [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes. [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls. [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques. [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action. [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design. [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".

Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher and host of the Knowledge for Teachers podcast, champions evidence-informed pedagogy and engineered discovery learning. He discusses shifting from unguided projects to explicit instruction and the instructional hierarchy. Short fluency practice, scaffolded fading, and designing tasks backward from goals are highlighted as keys to enabling those aha moments.

John Sweller, emeritus professor and originator of Cognitive Load Theory, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, explore how working memory limits shape instruction. They discuss primary versus secondary knowledge, element interactivity, the power of diagrams to offload cognitive strain, when inquiry learning fails, and why deep knowledge underpins higher-order thinking.

Drew Perkins talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb and Drew Perkins explore why traditional edtech often creates a "gamified" version of reality that limits student growth. Brian explains how Swivl is pivoting toward tools that prioritize human reflection over screen time. They dive into the necessity of "decentering"—the cognitive ability to step outside one's own perspective—and how AI can be used to develop "uncomputable intelligence." The conversation also addresses the challenges of teacher preparation and how AI-supported feedback can help early-career teachers navigate the "messy reality" of the classroom. Timestamped Episode Timeline: [00:04:15] Brian's Background and the Founding of Swivl. [00:10:32] The Paradox of Edtech: Why more tech doesn't always equal more learning. [00:18:45] Gamification vs. Reality: The danger of reducing learning to "winning" a game. [00:25:12] Decentering: Why perspective-taking is a prerequisite for enlightenment. [00:32:50] Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed: Moving past rigid metrics in education. [00:41:05] Uncomputable Intelligence: The human skills AI cannot replicate. [00:52:18] Scaling Reflection: How Swivl's M2 tool supports teacher development. [00:58:40] Final Thoughts: The future of teacher-led, inquiry-based instruction.

Drew Perkins welcomes Emily Waugh and Gabriela Delgado de Fina, both Assistant Heads of School for the A+ World Academy. They discuss the academy's unique educational model: a 10-month voyage for 72 students aboard the Sorlandet, a fully rigged ship built in 1927. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of a "school at sea," where academics, communal living, and maritime training converge. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Emily and Gabriela detail the academy's core philosophy and five goals for global leadership, which integrates academics with global studies, communal living, maritime training, and reflective learning. They share how students are required to participate in maritime watches, cleaning, and galley duties, fostering a deep sense of responsibility and grit. A mandatory course, "Self Systems and Society," serves as the anchor for these experiences, providing a space for students to reflect on conflict resolution and the unique challenges of sharing a living space with 72 peers. The discussion dives into the academy's current transition toward a more Project-Based Learning (PBL) curriculum. Gabriela and Emily candidly discuss the hurdles of implementing inquiry-based research, such as "Port Quests," in an environment with limited internet and library resources. They highlight the ongoing internal debate about balancing traditional knowledge acquisition with progressive skill development, illustrating what Drew calls a "knowledge-rich inquiry" model. Finally, they touch upon the essential nature of memorization in maritime life—where knowing the names and functions of hundreds of lines is a matter of safety—and the rigorous admissions process that seeks out curious students who are ready for the sacrifice and adventure of life at sea. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:03:43] Introductions and Roles – Emily and Gabriela share their journeys from teaching on the ship to their current land-based leadership roles. [00:08:02] Diverse Educational Backgrounds – A look at the progressive and traditional schooling experiences that shaped the guests' pedagogical perspectives. [00:11:39] The "My Five" Philosophy – Breaking down the five pillars of global leadership at A+ World Academy. [00:13:56] Life on the Sorlandet – Logistics of the 10-month voyage, the "top of the eight" Atlantic loop, and the requirement for every student to help operate the ship. [00:18:32] Connectivity and Crew Rotations – Managing limited internet access and the recent shift to rotating academic teams for sustainability. [00:21:43] Shifting to Project-Based Learning – Why the academy is moving away from traditional AP structures toward more integrated port-based projects. [00:28:37] The Knowledge vs. Skills Debate – Navigating the balance between progressive education and the need for content mastery. [00:38:15] Measuring Success Beyond Academics – The difficulty of quantifying qualitative growth in areas like communal living and resilience. [00:48:15] The Power of Functional Memorization – Why students must memorize maritime terms and how the "need to know" creates deep learning. [00:54:30] Student Profile and Motivation – What the academy looks for in applicants and why students voluntarily give up their phones.

Drew Perkins talks with investigative reporter Chris Papst about his book, Failure Factory: How Baltimore City Public Schools Deprive Taxpayers and Students of a Future . Papst, a reporter for Project Baltimore, shares his deep-dive into why one of the most funded school systems in America remains one of the lowest performing . From systemic grade manipulation to the misuse of school funds, this conversation explores the "end stages" of a failing public education system and serves as a critical warning for the rest of the country . Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Papst details the findings of his multi-year investigation, which uncovered "the 50% rule"—a policy preventing students from receiving grades below 50%, regardless of attendance or performance—and instances where principals directly ordered teachers to change failing grades to passing. He argues that the focus has shifted from educating children to acquiring funding and growing the power of the school system. The discussion also touches on the role of teachers' unions, the transition of teaching from a "profession to a job," and the emergence of "diploma mills" that exploit old state laws. Despite the systemic issues, Papst highlights "shining examples" like Cecil Elementary, where leadership has achieved high proficiency rates despite facing the same challenges as neighboring schools. Finally, the conversation looks at the national implications of these findings and the critical need for accountability in public education. Papst emphasizes that while the situation is dire, it is correctable through transparency and a refocus on student learning rather than adult-centered bureaucracy. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:05:37] Introducing Chris Papst – Investigative reporter for Project Baltimore and author of Failure Factory. [00:07:34] The "Failure Factory" Premise – Why Baltimore City Schools are highly funded but chronically low-performing. [00:10:37] Systemic Grade Inflation – Examining policies that allow students to graduate without basic literacy or attendance. [00:14:17] The 50% Rule – How automatic minimum grades mask educational failure and drive "social promotion." [00:18:44] Grade Changing as Fraud – A look at internal investigations where principals ordered mass grade changes. [00:23:03] Obstruction and Legal Battles – The story of suing the school system for public records and the judge's "willful violation" ruling. [00:28:27] Misuse of Public Funds – $30,000 on basketball tickets and other examples of administrative financial abuse. [00:31:55] Unions and the Professional Shift – Dr. Alvin Hathaway's perspective on when teaching became an "assembly-line job." [00:37:07] Examples of Success – Profiling Cecil Elementary and why successful models are rarely replicated. [00:40:32] Diploma Mills & State Standards – How "church-exempt" schools and lowered graduation requirements are devaluing diplomas. [00:46:54] Federal Grant Mismanagement – The case of Northwood Community Academy and the lack of federal oversight. [00:51:24] National Reaction – How the reporting went viral and reached the highest levels of government. [00:54:38] Closing Remarks – Where to find the book and how to get involved in local school accountability. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review wherever you're listening.

Drew Perkins welcomes Carole Geneix, Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School, to the podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of Artificial Intelligence in education. As schools grapple with the "AI revolution," Geneix argues that instead of fearing these tools, educators must integrate them into content-rich, inquiry-based frameworks to deepen student thinking. Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email us at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Carole highlights that the "AI fear" often stems from a misunderstanding of what these tools do. Drawing from her extensive background in the International Baccalaureate (IB) and Project Zero thinking routines, she explains that AI shouldn't be viewed as a way to bypass thinking, but as a "material" and "process" for students to interact with. By shifting the focus from the final product to the cognitive journey, teachers can ensure that inquiry remains at the heart of the classroom. The conversation dives into the practicalities of implementation, from the nuances of "See, Think, Wonder" routines to the necessity of teaching students how to prompt and critique AI outputs. They also discuss the global differences in education systems, comparing the centralized French model to the localized, inquiry-driven approach of international schools, and why a "knowledge-rich" curriculum is the essential foundation for effective AI use. Finally, they explore the shifting nature of assessment. Carole shares how schools can move away from traditional grading toward "reflection boxes" and process-oriented evaluations that prioritize human agency, ethics, and critical analysis in a world where information is increasingly automated. Timestamped Episode Timeline [00:00] Introduction of Carole Geneix – Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School and global education expert. [08:15] Global Education Perspectives – Comparing French, Korean, and U.S. educational philosophies and the role of inquiry. [14:30] Defining Inquiry-Based Learning – Why inquiry is a mindset, not just a set of activities, and its roots in the IB framework. [19:45] Project Zero Thinking Routines – How routines like "See, Think, Wonder" foster equity and give every student a voice. [25:50] The "AI Roadmap" for Schools – Using the Map of Understanding to determine where AI fits into the learning process. [33:10] AI as Artifact, Process, and Material – Reconceptualizing AI as a tool for reflection and creation rather than just an answer-generator. [41:15] Policy and Implementation – Why banning AI is a mistake and how to use tools like Flint AI for safe, monitored student engagement. [52:40] The Future of Assessment – Shifting from "what you know" to "how you think" in the age of generative AI. [01:05:10] Professional Development – The long-term commitment required to shift school culture toward inquiry-driven AI integration. [01:14:00] Closing Remarks – Where to find Carole's work and stay updated on AI in pedagogy.

Natalie Wexler, education writer and author known for The Knowledge Gap and work on literacy, argues for moving past phonics-only approaches. She explores elaboration as the engine of long-term comprehension. Short takes cover Cognitive Load Theory, classroom examples from the UK and Australia, and using writing as a powerful tool to turn facts into deep knowledge.

Drew Perkins welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Horvath doesn't mince words, arguing that the majority of student-facing, internet-connected devices should be removed from schools. He reveals that over 60 years of consistent data supports his claim that the integration of digital tools is fundamentally detrimental to effective learning. This isn't a Luddite's complaint; it's a detailed exploration of the Neuroscience of Learning. The harm is explained through three primary biological mechanisms, which Horvath asserts are unfixable with software. First, screens train students to multitask, leading to a constant, detrimental battle for attention in a learning environment. Second, the use of devices inhibits the essential human-to-human interaction necessary for empathetic synchrony—the mirroring and mimicking critical for deep cognitive and social development. Finally, we discuss the profound problem of Transfer of Learning. Horvath explains that by learning skills in an "easy" digital context, the ability to transfer that knowledge to a more complex, real-life (analog) task is significantly diminished, making the learning "slower, worse, and less deep." The data suggests tech only works in highly narrow contexts, primarily for surface-level "drill and kill" facts or basic remediation, often through intelligent tutors. The conversation then shifts to the persistent educational conflicts, notably the ongoing tension between Explicit Instruction vs Inquiry and Project-Based Learning (PBL). Horvath connects the rigidity of entrenched positions to a "sunk cost" phenomenon, where individuals find it too "costly" to change their public stance, even when facing opposing evidence. We delve into the complexities of teaching, noting that both traditional and progressive approaches are valid at different points in a student's journey, but both are fundamentally flawed when they adhere rigidly to a single philosophy. Furthermore, we explore the nature of Critical Thinking Skills and creativity. Horvath clarifies that while the mechanism for critical thinking is innate across all ages, its output is heavily constrained by the individual's available domain-specific knowledge. The science of learning, he argues, has nothing to say about specific pedagogy (such as direct instruction versus exploratory learning); it only describes the biological constraints of how the brain learns. Therefore, neuroscience should serve as a powerful tool to inform and improve any existing pedagogical approach, not dictate a single one. Horvath offers a vision for the ideal classroom, suggesting elementary spaces should be "basically outdoor," focused on play and minimal tech. For older students, he advocates for a high level of control, confining computer use to specialized lab settings—much like woodshop or physical education. This perspective provides an essential counter-narrative for any K-12 educator or administrator struggling to balance modern tools with effective, long-term student success. To continue exploring innovative, evidence-based strategies, subscribe to the ThoughtStretchers Podcast on your favorite podcast player! Timestamped Episode Timeline Time Segment/Topic [00:00] Introduction of Jared Cooney Horvath – Teacher-turned-neuroscientist, focus on "human learning" and applying neuroscience to educational practices. [01:28] Jared's Educational Background and Views on Pedagogy – Describing his K-12 experience as a "mishmash" that didn't adhere rigidly to "traditional" or "progressive" labels. [03:45] The Digital Delusion Book & EdTech Critique – Introducing the book and its core argument: edtech fundamentally harms learning, advocating for reducing/eliminating non-essential computer use in classrooms. [07:18] EdTech and Learning Outcomes/The Swedish Example – Advocating for removing student-facing, internet-connected devices; citing Sweden's ban on general tech use in schools (confining computers to a lab). [08:09] Exceptions for Technology Use – Tech only works effectively in narrow contexts: self-adaptive "intelligent tutors" for surface-level (drill and kill) learning and remediation. [09:46] Mechanisms of EdTech Harm (Biological) – Outlining the three primary ways screens harm learning: Attention, Empathetic Synchrony, and Transfer. [12:29] Transfer and Complexity in Learning – Discussion on how learning in an easy digital context makes skill transfer to a harder, real-life analog context almost impossible. [15:54] AI, Pedagogy, and Creating Learning Tools – Drew's example of using AI for quizzes; Jared's counter that learning is "slower, worse, and less deep" than if the student created the tools themselves. [18:07] The Ideal Classroom – Jared's vision for elementary (outdoor, play-focused, minimal tech) and middle/high school (human-element focus, highly controlled tech use in a lab). [20:17] Critical Thinking and Metacognition – Discussion on the definition of critical thinking, with Jared suggesting metacognition is a more accurate term for the process. [23:02] The Role of Knowledge in Critical Thinking – The mechanism is universal, but the outcome of critical thinking without knowledge is "very very narrow or pointless." [27:43] Creativity and Questioning – Defining creativity as "rearranging of your current memory structures." The role of knowledge and safety/context in the ability to ask good questions. [35:47] Tension Between Traditional and Progressive Education – Observing the acute conflict in Australia/UK; asserting both approaches are correct at different points but wrong when they are too rigid. [40:34] Science of Learning and Pedagogy – Stressing that the science of learning only concerns biological mechanisms and should inform teaching, not dictate a specific pedagogy. [43:08] AI Model Training and Pedagogical Parallels – Drew's question on parallels between AI's "symbolism" vs. "connectivism" and educational philosophies. [44:15] Critique of AI and Cognitive Models – Jared's view that AI conceptualization has mistakenly influenced brain understanding and that current AI models may be at a peak without a new theoretical framework. [46:02] Book and Contact Information – Sharing website (www.lmegglobal.net), new book (The Digital Delusion), and YouTube channel. [46:47] Closing Remarks – Final thoughts on recognizing the "gray zone" in complex educational issues.

Barbara Oakley, distinguished engineering professor and co-instructor of the Learning How to Learn course, discusses why exposure to differing views matters for cognitive flexibility. She explores the neuroscience of emotional upset, the rise of safe-space culture and its consequences, tensions in K–12 education, and how inquiry paired with direct instruction can improve learning.