The ThoughtStretchers Podcast

Barbara Oakley, distinguished engineering professor and co-instructor of the Learning How to Learn course, discusses why exposure to differing views matters for cognitive flexibility. She explores the neuroscience of emotional upset, the rise of safe-space culture and its consequences, tensions in K–12 education, and how inquiry paired with direct instruction can improve learning.

Jon Bassett, a veteran high school history teacher and co-founder of 4QM Teaching, and Gary Schiffman, a former political science professor turned secondary teacher and co-founder, discuss the Four Question Method. They unpack narration, interpretation, explanation, and judgment. They explain building a U.S. history curriculum, teaching civil disagreement, and why knowledge-rich, structured inquiry empowers ordinary teachers.

Aaron Astor, a 19th-century U.S. history professor and former AP grader; Jonathan Dallimore, a curriculum expert and author from New South Wales; and Lauren Brown, a seasoned history teacher and writer. They debate foundational knowledge versus inquiry. They discuss memory and retention, using periodization and maps, sequencing knowledge before deeper analysis, and protecting historical understanding in the age of AI and social media.

Drew Perkins is joined by guest co-host, fourth-grade teacher Melinda Karshner, for a critical conversation with Timothy Shanahan, Distinguished Professor Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago and former Director of Reading for Chicago Public Schools. They discuss the core arguments of his book, Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives, How Students' Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube Key Themes & Time-Stamped Highlights (00:10:31) The Flaw in Instructional Level Theory: Dr. Shanahan explains why the long-held notion of teaching kids at their "instructional level" is flawed, noting that research shows this practice often holds students back and reduces their opportunity to learn. (00:12:37) The Research: Studies show that students who receive "instructional level" treatment often do worse than those taught with grade-level materials. (00:14:04) The Problem of "Ghost Retention": The practice effectively retains students at lower curriculum levels without informing parents, leading to a disconnect between national assessment results and parental perception of their child's reading level. (00:16:11) Shanahan's Stance on Phonics: While "very pro phonics," Dr. Shanahan emphasizes following research, noting that a federal panel he served on supported phonics, fluency, vocabulary, and direct instruction in reading comprehension. (00:20:37) Challenging Text and Equity: Shanahan shares historical context and cites studies showing that ability-based reading groups actually penalized minority students, confirming that the practice of holding kids back is detrimental to equity. (00:25:28) The Power of Scaffolding: For most struggling readers (a one- to two-year gap), scaffolding grade-level materials is manageable and beneficial, especially from the beginning of second grade onward. (00:31:13) Optimizing Intervention Time: Dr. Shanahan suggests that for students with basic foundational skills, intervention time should limit decoding practice to about 15 minutes of a 45-minute session, using the remaining time for working on grade-level text fluency and comprehension. (00:33:44) Fluency & Practice: Having students read challenging text aloud a second time can reduce errors by 50%, making it immediately more accessible for comprehension. (00:40:31) Student Choice & Motivation: Teachers should involve students in choosing texts among grade-level options (e.g., voting on the next three stories) to dramatically increase engagement and motivation. (00:43:37) Cognitive Load & Productive Struggle: Dr. Shanahan resolves the tension with cognitive load theory, emphasizing that learning requires a degree of challenge (frustration) to be retained, and the goal is successful navigation of challenging material with support. (00:51:07) Reforming Teacher Education: Teacher preparation programs need to move away from focusing on matching kids to books and instead focus on training teachers to address texts that outstrip a student's current skills through targeted support and intervention. (01:00:06) The Four-Part Literacy Framework: Dr. Shanahan outlines a mandated framework for Language Arts instruction: (1) words/parts of words, (2) fluency, (3) reading comprehension, and (4) writing instruction, recommending a quarter of time for each, balanced over time. (01:03:15) Integrating Content: Integrating social studies or science content into the reading comprehension block provides a "double dose" of learning and exposure to varied text types.

Drew Perkins talks with Shane Leaning about his new book, Change Starts Here: What If Everything Your School Needed Was Right in Front of You? Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode Watch on YouTube

Drew Perkins talks with Heidi Boghosian about her book, Cyber Citizens: Saving Democracy with Digital Literacy. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with George Lilley, a veteran teacher from Australia, about his critiques of the work of John Hattie, and the Science of Learning. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with return guest, Ronn Nozoe, CEO of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP). Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Vladimir Kogan about his new book, No Adult Left Behind: How Politics Hijacks Education Policy and Hurts Kids. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Drew Perkins talks with Rod Naquin about balancing educational research with practice as he returns to the classroom after 7 years doing educational leadership work. Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode