The Leadership Podcast

Hasard Lee is an F-35 pilot in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, and has flown 82 combat missions. He has the distinction of being the only fighter pilot to employ two different types of jets in combat on the same day. Hasard is a content creator with one of the largest defense channels on YouTube - with over 54 million views and a reach of 290 million people. Hasard has a book coming out in May 2023, The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot's Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions. In this conversation, Hasard shares the rules for making tough decisions. https://bit.ly/TLP-329 Key Takeaways [2:44] Hasard joined the Reserves in 2020. He still flies once in a while. Most of his time is devoted to writing his upcoming book. Hasard's father was a physicist in the Department of Energy so they moved from Livermore, CA, to Los Alamos, NM, and Washington D.C. for his job. Hasard went to his first air show when he was five. He has pictures of himself in an F-15 with a helmet on. [3:59] Hasard got the flying bug when he was five. He memorized all the jets and was passionate about them. When he was 12, a friend of a friend of his father's took him up in a Cessna 152 and Hasard got a little bit of yoke time. After that, he was hooked and he knew he wanted to fly in the Air Force. He started taking steps in high school to make it happen. [6:11] The happy place for fighter pilots is in the cockpit, flying. But developing systems for training fighter pilots on the F-35 is one of the best things Hasard has ever done. The F-35 is the most expensive weapons system in history and will probably fly into the 2070s. The training tech included simulators on laptops, VR goggles, and high-end simulators, all setting pilots on the right path for the next decades. [9:03] Joining pilots of different jets into one program is like a merger. And most mergers fail! Hasard contrasts the competencies of A-10 pilots for close air support for troops on the ground with the F-16 pilots that do much of what the F-35 pilots do, and the F-22 and F-15C pilots. Part of Hasard's job was to create the syllabus, building from the lowest common denominator of what the pilots knew. [11:54] Hasard planned his book to be entertaining and to incorporate some of the principles he learned as a fighter pilot. Most chapters have a story from Hasard's time flying and a story from history or the business world. He breaks it down through ACE: Assess, Choose, and Execute. That's how fighter pilots make decisions. It's developed from John Boyd's OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. [12:44] Hasard explains assessing and prioritizing the information that comes before you using laws of power: exponential growth, diminishing returns, and knees in the curve; how to make decisions based on expected values; and execution. The number one thing is being prepared. Start with visualization, or "chair flying" from the beginning to the end in your mind, and plan how to handle contingencies. [18:07] How do you learn to evaluate the odds? With debriefs. A pilot will go fly for an hour and then debrief that flight for two to six hours and pick through everything that has gone right and wrong to sharpen their mental model and make it more in line with reality. Check your ego at the door. Call everything out. [19:55] This needs to be done better in the civilian world. Spend time with your team and write down lessons learned after every project in some sort of document that everybody can reference. After every flight, Hasard writes down in a little notebook three things he could have done better. Then, the next time he has a similar flight, he reads those notes to prepare. Leaders: are you doing this enough? [22:43] We're all leaders. When it comes down to being a good leader, you need four things: Competence in your job and a level of competence in jobs that report to you, Caring, Conviction in the vision of what you do, and in the boundaries you will not cross, and Clarity for solving problems. With these four characteristics, you can get a team to move quickly in a certain direction. [25:21] Everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better and make better decisions. It's hard for fighter pilots to get enough sleep because they fly at all hours. A noise machine in the bedroom helps. Sleep is an exponential benefit to what you do. It will help every aspect of your life from your relationships to how well you see the world to solve problems. At least eight hours is optimal. [28:25] Self-care, such as nutrition, sleep, hydration, physical therapy, and psychology are being emphasized now in pilot training. The evidence is getting out there. It just needs to be a priority. Generation Z is prepared for it by not smoking. [31:30] Being a fighter pilot is not a one v. one cage match or Top Gun with four aircraft. Pilots work with hundreds of aircraft operating together. They deal with the space domain, the cyberspace domain, people on the ground, and aircraft ISR (intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance). It's a force package of 100-plus assets working to create the best team possible. And the enemy is just as smart. [33:06] Advice for younger people who want to be fighter pilots: You don't need to have perfect vision anymore! You can have Lasik or fly with contact lenses or glasses. If you want to be a fighter pilot, apply! [33:44] Hasard has noticed that in the military, everyone has similar values, along a range. The business world is more of an open ocean and you have to be discerning to figure out where a person is coming from and their intentions, and how well they execute. When you hire someone, they haven't been through OCS or the Academy and pilot training. They don't think like the military. Hiring is a challenge. [36:35] Hasard has a "Never Again story." When he was a lieutenant learning to fly an F-16 he was doing high-aspect BFM with a colonel with 25 years of experience. Hasard wanted to impress the colonel. He pulled up to vertical at 245 knots — six knots too slow! He fell out of control. He was able to get the jet under control at 2,000 feet. He learned small changes in input can make very large changes in output. [42:06] Closing quote: Remember, "Clarity affords focus." — Thomas Leonard Quotable Quotes "There are three important power laws you have to know: Exponential Growth, … Diminishing Return, … and Knees in the Curve." — Hasard "If you can slow down to less than about 250 knots [before ejecting], you drastically increase your chance of survival because speed behaves exponentially." — Hasard "As soon as you put on your helmet, you lose 20 I.Q. points. And what that means is you don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation. … You have to be prepared … in a training environment even more difficult than combat." — Hasard "If I could talk about all the benefits of sleep without saying it was sleep and just saying it was a pill, I think I'd probably be a billionaire. Because everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better … you make better decisions." — Hasard "[Falling in an out-of-control jet] was a big eye-opening story for me that small changes in input can have exponentially large changes in the output." — Hasard Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Hasard Lee Hasard Lee's YouTube channel Hasard X F-35 F-16 High-aspect BFM The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot's Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions (Coming in May 2023) Cessna 152 King Air A-10 F-22 F-15 The Power of Clarity: Unleash the True Potential of Workplace Productivity, Confidence, and Empowerment, by Ann Latham Malcolm Gladwell The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right, by Atul Gawande John Boyd's OODA Loop LASIK OCS

Whitney Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of Disruption Advisors, a talent development company. Whitney is a globally-recognized thought leader. author, keynote speaker, executive coach, consultant, and a popular LinkedIn Learning instructor. In this conversation, Whitney discusses how musicality has lessons for the business world, and the wide applications of the S-Curve. https://bit.ly/TLP-328 Key Takeaways [2:35] At her daughter's prompting during the pandemic, Whitney and her family started watching Korean dramas. The family became obsessed with them. Whitney now studies Korean for two minutes a day on Duolingo. Whitney describes the characteristics of Korean dramas. [5:22] Whitney majored in music, studying classical piano and jazz. Because of her musical background, when she structures a keynote, a book, or a podcast, she looks for musicality and a musical structure to it. Musical structure and musicality inform the work she does. Also, as an experienced accompanist, she knows how to be second, allowing her to be a good interviewer, and as a coach, to listen well. [7:04] Brett Mitchell, the former conductor of the Colorado Symphony, said that music is what happens between the notes. Whitney discusses pauses relating to leadership and cites Clayton Christiansen, saying that partway through his career, Clayton Christiansen started a practice of praying before teaching a class. Once he started that practice, he started to have a significant impact on his students. [8:42] Whitney suggests that before you speak, have a meeting, or a coaching session, you pause and think about the person you're about to speak to, and how to convey to the person that they matter to you, that is an element of leadership. [10:33] Wayne Muller, author of Sabbath, pointed out the pauses in Martin Luther King's exclamation, "Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" [11:41] Gino Wickman, in The EOS Life, recommends entrepreneurs take sabbaticals. One of Jim's clients just took a sabbatical and reported that stepping back and taking a break allowed them to reflect and then grow. [12:20] Whitney has a LinkedIn Learning class, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders, and a book, Smart Growth. Whitney's view is that we are wired to grow. Virtuous growth is growing in such a way that everyone around you grows as well. She believes that human growth is unbounded. [13:23] Sociologist Everett Rogers applied the S-Curve to the study of how quickly innovation is adopted. Working with Clayton Christiansen, Whitney realized she could apply the S-Curve to individual change and growth. Growth comes in three stages: slow (launch), fast (sweet spot), and slow (master place). Every time you start a new role or a new job, you go through the curve. This is covered in Smart Growth. [14:45] Whitney's LinkedIn course focuses on how to create the conditions where people around you can grow, with the resources they need, and how they can feel connected to what they're doing and the people they're working with. Whitney also talks about building resilience and nurturing people. If you can do all those things, you're creating conditions wherein the people around you can grow. [16:59] Whitney makes the underlying assumption that if you will grow yourself then, by the contagion effect, the people around you will grow. Then, by default, your business will grow. [17:49] You can manage your organization as a portfolio of curves. The people at the curve's launch point will need the most support. They will also have a fresh perspective, opening the door to innovation. You want about 20% of the people in your organization to be new, 60% to be in the sweet spot, and 20% in master, ready for a new challenge. This is a good distribution for innovation. [20:10] De-prioritize the things you do really well that somebody else could do. Whitney gives an example from a client. If you stop doing the things you should delegate to others, you will have time to do the things only you can do, and you get out of the way for them to work on the steep part of the S-Curve. [23:06] Every organization needs to have, as part of their vision, growing human beings and helping them reach their potential. The vision starts with the founders, and as people join the organization, they begin to co-create the vision with the founders. Everyone helps each other grow. In the most fluid, powerful organizations, everyone contributes to the creation of the vision. [26:56] Whitney addresses growth pre-pandemic, in-pandemic, and post-pandemic. A lot of adaptation and resilience have been required. When people are under stress, they go to default stress behaviors. You need to make sure people work together and not against each other. People want to grow but are not always sure how to do it. This goes back to Whitney's course, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders. [28:39] Whitney asks Jan and Jim for their thoughts on getting people to work together under stress. Jim states that when people are stressed they need time and space to solve their problems. People are pausing to figure out how to work together. People need time and space to get up to game speed. Executives are not paid to be busy. Pausing is a good way to grow by asking yourself tough questions. [31:35] Whitney has an assessment that she administers to clients. It includes seven accelerants of growth. The one that ranks the lowest is frequently "Step back to grow." People are not taking time to pause and reflect. Whitney quotes Tiffany Shlain who asks, "What if we thought of 'rest' as technology because the promise of technology is to make you more productive?" [34:17] Egon Zehnder surveyed 1,000 executives whether they strongly agreed that to transform your organization you need to transform yourself. Before the pandemic, 18% of executives agreed. After the pandemic, 805 of the executives agreed. The only way you have the moral authority to ask people to change is if you, yourself, are changing. The fundamental unit of change is the individual at every level. [37:52] Whitney lists some people that inspire her, and why: Rashika Tolshan, who wrote about the Queen of England passing away, Brené Brown, Musician Jacob Collier, author Richie Norton, and NFL QB Steve Young. Each of them inspired Whitney with their visions of growth. [41:35] When Whitney was making her list of influential people, her default was to go to all men. She had to make sure she included some women. She had to be very mindful and deliberate to determine who is actually influencing her and she wanted a diversity of perspectives. Jim highlights the leadership lesson of intentionality. [42:49] Whitney's audience homework: On the topic of pausing and resting, listen to these two episodes of Whitney's Step Back to Grow podcast: Episode 139 with filmmaker Tiffany Schlain and Episode 180. Don't avoid taking a pause to rest. [43:57] Closing quote: Remember, "It's all to do with the training: you can do a lot if you're properly trained." — Queen Elizabeth II Quotable Quotes "Because of being a musician, I think of things in a musical sort of way. When I'm structuring a keynote; … a book; … a podcast, there's always a sense of, 'Is there a musicality to it; is there a musical structure to it?'" — Whitney "I wrote a piece about the importance of taking a break, that you needed to rest because the ability to rest was going to allow you to recharge so that you could then move forward." — Whitney "For me, growth is our default setting. We're wired to grow." — Whitney "Every time we start something new, we're on a new S-Curve. There are three stages. There's the launch point that feels slow, there's the sweet spot, … where growth is fast, … and … the master place, where growth is … slow." — Whitney "People who are successful are intentional. It doesn't just fall in your lap. … Successful people are intentional people and [a high] level intentionality is something to be admired and something for people listening to this podcast to take away." — Jim Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Whitney Johnson Disruption Advisors Korean Dramas Duolingo Tiffany Shlain on Step Back to Grow, Episode 139 with Whitney Johnson Step Back to Grow, Episode 180 with Whitney Johnson Brett Mitchell Clayton Christiansen Sabbath: Finding Rest, Renewal, and Delight in Our Busy Lives, by Wayne Muller I Have a Dream Gino Wickman The EOS Life: How to Live Your Ideal Entrepreneurial Life Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders, with Whitney Johnson on LinkedIn Learning Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company, by Whitney Johnson Everett Rogers 24/6: The Power of Unplugging One Day a Week, by Tiffany Shlain Egon Zehnder Ruchika Tulshyan Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience, by Brené Brown Jacob Collier Anti-Time Management: Reclaim Your Time and Revolutionize Your Results with the Power of Time Tipping, by Richie Norton Steve Young

Audrey Darley Welch heads up the partner program for Darley Defense, W.S. Darley & Company's military distribution business and its largest division. Her team manages the company's partnerships with key suppliers of tactical and fire-fighting products and services. In this episode, Audrey shares lessons she learned from working in various industries and now at Darley. She tells how she adapts to working in a male-oriented field, how she applies sports metaphors to her team, and what she learned from bad assumptions. https://bit.ly/TLP-327 Key Takeaways [2:09] Audrey originally had intended to become a high school math teacher and volleyball coach. But she didn't realize you had to be a calculus whiz to teach algebra! She decided to go into finance, instead. She is still passionate about sports and coaching. [3:01] Darley, a family-owned business of four generations, has a family employment policy that requires family members to work outside the business for a period before joining Darley. Audrey had not planned to work at Darley. She started a banking career after college. After three years, she considered joining Darley. For a year she went to board meetings and shareholder meetings and researched Darley. [3:53] When Audrey decided she wanted to join Darley, she wrote an application essay. The open position was a dealer development person for Darley's legacy pump division. She got the job and spent a year working in that area but it was not the ideal position for her background in finance and relationship management. [4:28] Audrey was interested in getting exposure to different areas of the business. She found a position in supplier relationship management in the Defense Division. It was a job she was weel-qualified for and she has been working in the supplier relationship function for the last seven years. [5:40] Working at a large bank before coming to Darley allowed Audrey to see how big companies do things, their policies, and their structure. She was able to see what her strengths were at work. The largest thing she learned was the discipline and accountability of being part of a professional organization. [7:03] Audrey feared before joining Darley that she would have to follow her father's leadership style. He is an extrovert and Audrey is introverted. Audrey's advice to the next generation would be to be natural. She also advises the next generation to find out what fresh ideas the business needs to set it up for success, respecting the secret sauce, the family. Darley has had 300% growth in the last five years. [10:01] Audrey doesn't have a problem with being an offspring, the fourth generation, or being a woman in a male-dominated field. She works well with her male cousins and men in the industry. She goes on pheasant hunts, fishing, and to the Wisconsin supper clubs with the men, so being a woman didn't make a difference to her career. Audrey describes a Wisconsin supper club, for those unfamiliar. [12:34] Audrey talks about one's personal responsibility to pursue professional development. Especially in the family business environment, it's all about initiative. She doesn't expect her generation to be nurtured in the business. Each person needs to pave their own way. Audrey recommends a career map with a "From-To" statement and figuring out what kind of experiences you need to get there. [15:26] Does Audrey want to be President? At Darley, there is no job description for President; currently, the CEO, President, and Chairman are all the same person. So Audrey went ahead and developed a job description for the President as she sees it and as she thinks she would do well in that role, and where they can split off CEO responsibilities. She finds those types of exercises to be very refreshing. [17:25] Soon, the fourth generation will get together to talk about all the positions and get clarity on succession planning. Everybody at Darley has worn a lot of different hats, and it's time to separate their roles, especially of the senior leadership team. [18:51] In a mid-level role like Audrey's, leadership is tough. She has five direct reports and will soon have six. The company is trying to scale, with top-level goals, and every team is checking that their goals align with the company goals, but managers may not realize they do not align with cross-functional team goals. Audrey shares a misstep she had made with goals that impacted the Sales Team's goals. [22:11] Audrey presented to senior management in a virtual meeting the initiative she had developed. When she heard "crickets," she knew something was wrong. She started getting pushback from sales and business development. Her incorrect assumptions had damaged her trust level across departments. Sales reps started having friction with account managers. Get feedback! Silence is not compliance! [24:46] Audrey ties a lot of her leadership to sports and the volleyball she played in school. She was the setter in volleyball, setting her teammates up for success. The setter is usually named the captain of the team because they're running the plays. At work, she considers herself the captain of her team, and the coach. Audrey is concerned about perfecting the fundamentals. [25:46] Audrey's volleyball coach had her do 1,000 repetitions against the wall before coming out for a game to start setting people up in the warm-up. She uses repetition at Darley, focusing on strategies and core competencies. [27:30] Sports metaphors may not work for everybody. Audrey says something that applies to almost all sports is never to sacrifice form for speed. That's how you get injured. Slow down to speed up. [28:45] Government contract bids need to be submitted within 72 hours. Audrey says that cutting corners on supplier due diligence can cause problems. Darley's core value is integrity, and speed is not integrity. Never bypass your core values. [31:54] Audrey tells how she achieves work-life balance. She has her priorities straight. Even so, when she chooses personal over business or business over personal, sometimes there is some guilt felt. Her husband helps. Figure out work patterns with your partner or whoever is helping you with all this and get into a routine. [34:38] Audrey does not think remote work will go away. Audrey prefers hybrid to all-remote. About 60% of companies are offering remote work. It's not a fad. Audrey values in-person collaboration. She values in-person collaboration time in the office. That can be managed in two-to-three days. Remote doesn't work for every position. Audrey's quality of life has drastically improved through hybrid work. [37:08] Audrey comments on what veterans can do to have a successful transition to business life. Veterans at Darley are very aligned with and connected to the mission, which catapults their careers forward. The biggest challenge is understanding the business world. You need to be flexible and wear different hats. You may be uncomfortable. Getting an MBA before coming to Darley helps a lot. [40:21] Three points that will help anyone transitioning into the business world: 1. Be curious, 2. Be adaptable, and 3. Figure out ways to be confident without knowing everything about everything. [41:04] Audrey's closing thought for listeners: Build your sounding board early. Besides joining forums, having mentors, and tapping the knowledge of the board of directors, it is most important to participate in a peer group to help you get where you want to go. [42:37] Closing quote: Remember, "There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that is your own self." —Aldous Huxley Quotable Quotes "I found out that I'm very detail-oriented and I do like relationship management on the customer side." — Audrey "Are we setting up the future of the business for success with the way that we have it? Right now, we've had 300% growth over the last five years." — Audrey "When it comes to building trust and relationships, I'm out there doing the pheasant hunts, and the fishing, and the beer-drinking, and the supper clubs in Wisconsin up near our plant, and all that. So I don't think [being a woman] really did play a role." — Audrey "I ran through, 'This is what it means for the division, this is what it means for sales.' I was trying to highlight all the good things that would come from an initiative like this. … It was like 'crickets.' … Sometimes not hearing anything at all can be a message." — Audrey "[Sports] is where it all started. And I still do, I tie a lot of it back to sports, or even just fitness, in general. I was a setter in volleyball, very much the quarterback or the point guard equivalent. You're setting people up for success." — Audrey "You won't hear me say I don't value that in-person collaboration time." — Audrey "We're a distributor and we sell a lot of different types of products, we call on a lot of different types of customers. … They may not feel as comfortable. … Everybody's bought into the importance of the equipment we sell." — Audrey Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Audrey Darley Welch Pareto Principle

Dr. Marianne Lewis is renowned for her research on the paradoxes of leadership and is coauthor, with Wendy Smith, of Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Greatest Problems. The conversation covers how we can learn to think about paradoxes, and why tension is necessary for balance - and to achieve innovation. https://bit.ly/TLP-326 Key Takeaways [2:14] Marianne grew up with a father in academia. She was determined not to be a professor in academia. In her rebellion, she came to the Midwest to find her space. And she loves Cincinnati and is absolutely in academia, studying leaders. [3:51] Marianne addresses why "both/and" thinking is essential for emotional balance and rational behavior. [5:25] Marianne refers to James March's teachings about the complexity and messiness of the world we live in and bounded rationality, meaning there's just so much one can take in. We do what we need to do to get by in a busy, complicated, messy world that pushes us toward looking at our tensions and dilemmas as "either/or" trade-offs. [7:08] A few years ago, Marianne and her team built a psychological "instrument" they call a paradox mindset. They've studied thousands of people in multiple languages. From their observations, it appears that the way we think is learned. Your ability to manage tensions appears to do with how often you deal with tensions and how much you try to embrace and work through them. More study is to come. [9:45] Paradox thinking and systems thinking are related. A "both/and" thinker tends to think more in systems, looking for interactions and feedback loops. Systems thinking involves looking at complexity in context and in new ways. "Both/and" thinking adds to looking for the value in tensions as you work through the complexity to find more creative and more lasting solutions to your problems. [11:18] There are tensions between things and between systems, but the important tensions are between individuals. Marianne has worked in this field for 25 years, 20 of them with Wendy. They found three factors that intensify the experience of tensions: Change. Today is becoming tomorrow faster. Scarcity. As soon as you feel that you're slicing the pie thinner, you feel tension. Plurality. A multiplicity of stakeholders with pressures that differ. [12:13] We're in the perfect storm of change, scarcity, and plurality. We are living in tensions in our lives, organizations, and society. The tensions are interwoven across levels and facets. [13:48] Vicious cycles reinforce errors in our thinking. Marianne talks about three vicious cycles: Going down the rabbit hole, or deep ruts of behavior. Overcorrecting in the opposite direction. Polarization. Shouting, diminishing each other, and doing anything but listening. [15:47] Get out of the trench by asking, "What are they thinking? What are they seeing? Can we learn?" [16:43] Virtuous cycles are reinforcing tendencies that help us navigate tensions. Marianne sees two patterns of virtuous cycles. One is Creative Integration, taking the best of two extremes, such as radical innovation and efficiency, and putting them together creatively. Marianne compares this to a mule, stronger than a horse and smarter than a donkey. Creative integration is rare. [18:13] The second pattern of virtuous cycles, Dynamic Balancing, is more common. Marianne compares this to tightrope walking; looking to the horizon while dealing with the present tensions. Don't panic in tense moments; keep moving forward. You'll learn as you do it. [21:01] Help people understand why embracing tensions and creative friction fosters opportunities for creativity, learning, and older innovations, moving forward. Marianne tells of Paul Polman when he was CEO of Unilever, who said Unilever would double its profits by reducing its environmental footprint. On every issue he discussed, he wanted to have tension on the team. He was provocative and purposeful. [24:22] "Either/or" and "both/and" thinking are both about decision-making. Uncertainty is potentially paralyzing for "either/or" thinkers. You don't know what the right solution is and the right solution tomorrow may be different. But the point is to keep making decisions, having the confidence and the humility to know you can move forward, whatever the results are. Keep in mind your higher purpose. [26:06] The boundary around the tensions is what holds the elements together. Marianne is seeing an existential crisis in academia and business that strikes her as a lack of meaning. We need to be pushing harder on finding that boundary. [26:43] Is work a transaction of time for money, or does it have meaning and legacy? You serve other people and make their lives better. Leaders need to create an environment where people want to come and bring their best. If a company has a bunch of people in transaction mode, Jan puts it on the leaders. Marianne says it's key for that leader to tap into why they are there. Make the transactions matter. [29:02] Marianne addresses the role of leaders to help us out of the malaise in our society, even in this wonderful world. First, ask why we feel that malaise. Richard Farson wrote of the paradox of rising expectations. At the lowest state, there's no hope. As people realize the potential, as hope grows, the bar raises and people see what could be! The frustrations and protests rise. [30:20] The frustration should be encouraging to leaders. If your people are silent, either they don't care or they are so far below the water that they don't have time or energy to complain. The complaining is because people see that we could be ever better. The world is so polarized because we have very different views of how we get there. You get turf warfare between different sides with different ideas. [31:09] If we could agree that we all want a better world. There are lots of paths to get there. How do we listen and learn from each other? We need leaders, ourselves included, to make sure that raised bar says it's about wanting a better world. It's not about the how, it's about what we want. Let's have good debates and get the friction in the room and think about how we get there. [31:54] Sam Walker, author of The Captain Class, told about a study he did of the most successful sports teams in history. They had captains with unique characteristics that helped build the teams. They dealt with task conflicts and process conflicts but avoided personal conflicts at all costs. When people focus on the task or process, it is productive, not a personal attack. [33:20] Marianne discusses two sides of conflict: the destructive and the empowering. The difference is your focus: the person, feeling the emotion, or the task, the higher purpose, what you want to get done. When you focus on the person, things escalate in a way that is not productive. Some of us are going to have to model the way with different leadership styles. [34:31] Marianne is grateful every day to have a colleague like Wendy Smith. One of the reasons their partnership has been so productive is that they are really different. They have all sorts of differences but they found a lot of similarities. They want a better world, they believe in learning and innovation. While they were writing their book, they found themselves in many late-night deep discussions on challenges. [38:37] Marianne's challenge to listeners: Start paying more attention to the questions you are asking. Are you asking "either/or" questions? Those questions immediately limit your options. Start asking more "both/and" questions, such as, "How do we make this world more sustainable and more productive?" [39:35] Closing quote: Remember, "How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress!" — Niels Bohr Quotable Quotes "We tend to define things by what they're not. We think in terms of contrast. … You're either 'A' or 'Not-A.' So we think in terms of opposites, even if those opposites aren't actually direct contradictions. … The way we think … influences the way we feel." — Marianne "We're wired to have these heuristic shortcuts, these cognitive biases. … What we feel is completely logical but it might not be." — Jim "People who have a greater paradox mindset, especially when they're working or living in a world of tensions, … are more productive, more creative, and happier; more satisfied. … They see tensions as opportunities." — Marianne "We use the analogy of a mule, which is stronger than a horse and smarter than a donkey." — Marianne "I think about friction in two ways: 1. It can produce drag, or 2. It can produce traction." — Jan "One way to think about how you hold together your tensions is [to ask] 'What do you want this to be in the broader world?'" — Marianne "I'm sensing an existential crisis. I see it, whether in academia or business, and that strikes me as a sense of lack of meaning. We need to be pushing harder on 'What is that boundary?'" — Marianne "For all the rising expectations going on around us and the frustration, the lack of listening and compassion is painful to me." — Marianne "We wanted to write this book; we did not want this to be a purely business book. These same patterns and tools work at the individual level as a mother, as a friend, and we have seen powerful examples working at the societal level. " — Marianne "I don't want you to think what I think but I'd love us to be aligned with what we want in the end goal." — Marianne Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Marianne Lewis, Ph.D. Carl H. Lindner College of Business at the University of Cincinnati Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Greatest Problems HBR Press James March Systems Thinking Donnella Meadows Peter Senge Paul Polman Unilever Richard Farson Management of the Absurd: Paradoxes in Leadership, by Richard Farson The Captain Class: The Hidden Force That Creates the World's Greatest Teams, by Sam Walker

Dr. Ciela Hartanov runs Humcollective, a boutique strategy and innovation firm that helps companies, executives, and teams make sense of the forces shaping our future and prepare strategically. In this episode, Ciela discusses the shift that will be needed to turn teaching leadership skills into teaching a leadership mindset. She discusses how and why sensitivity (not emotionalism) is needed more than ever at work. Listen in for an impressive view of the future of work and how that will shape our communities. https://bit.ly/TLP-325 Key Takeaways [1:57] Ciela has a passion for the human experience inside of work. She believes it is important to put the human at the center of work. Ciela grew up with a father who was very interested in people and she traveled a lot with him. [3:29] The idea of work as a transaction comes from the Industrial Revolution and the assembly line. You work these hours, produce these widgets, and you get paid. Before the Industrial Revolution, you worked for yourself to build a life and had jobs inside the community, such as baker and candlestick maker, to build the community together. [5:37] Society is trying to break the transaction mindset. Because of the pandemic, there has been a reckoning and reconsideration of the employee/employer contract. Everyone's responsible and we are making agreements together about what that contract is. [6:52] Ciela says we've been sold the idea that purpose is an individual pursuit. We are social beings. Ciela has learned through sociology that we are ourselves because we are reflected through other people. An individual's purpose and meaning are within the context of society. Ciela is working to put us back within the context of our society. We don't operate as solo individuals. [8:01] Before the pandemic, Ciela was worried that loneliness was an epidemic. People were using work to relieve their loneliness. Employers encouraged employees to be more connected to their organization and to have a "best friend" at work. This idea was disrupted by remote work. Individuals need to have their social needs met outside the organization. It's not enough to just be on your own. [10:05] Ciela doesn't talk about transformation. She sees what is happening as a renewal of what it means to be alive as a human being. This is a new conversation in society. The Great Resignation is a philosophical conversation about what it means to be a human being and what it means to work. [11:54] Advances are happening that will impact human beings. But the human condition will always be evergreen. We are still discovering things about the human condition. Those things aren't new, we just didn't know them yet. The things that are new are technological advances and tools, like AI. [12:42] Ciela is studying Emergence and Emergent theory. It is a fundamental human condition that we don't like uncertainty. We will be experiencing more and more uncertainty. Ciela helps organizations figure out how to tie the thread between the growing uncertainty and our dislike of it. [15:12] People will learn that adapting to change is an essential skill. Companies can teach their employees how to adapt to new requirements of a job. It is essential to have emotional resilience for the triggers that come with change. When Ciela was at Google, they spent years teaching people how to meditate. Meditation is a tool to regulate emotion inside a complex and challenging environment. [17:15] Humans are naturally curious and interested. We have it as children. The industrial era has stripped that out of us because it's not efficient. You can't measure creativity in the same way as productivity. Celia is writing a book. In her book, she talks about moving from the idea of knowledge work to perceptual work. Perceptual work involves perceiving what is happening around us. [19:07] After perceiving comes interpreting. This is a human skill, not a machine skill. When we gain insight, our creative mind sees it and considers the way forward to make a move. In uncertainty, making a move is an experiment. This requires rethinking organizational practices and patterns. There's not a straight path from Point A to Point B anymore. [21:50] Ciela was on a team at Google that studied the future of leadership. She tells of the insight that led her to organize the study team. She held the position that we need to examine mindsets before we teach leadership skills. It's like our operating system. If you don't have the right operating system for the context, you're never going to be able to demonstrate the right behavior. [25:06] The team developed six mindsets that matter. Ciela shares three of them: 1.) I must know myself and get over myself to be in the service of other people., 2.) Believe that being in uncertain terrain is progress and progress needs tension., 3.) Know that power is responsibility, and take that seriously when you sit in a leadership seat. [27:30] Teaching leadership skills before teaching mindset worked in a time of more certainty. We are in a time of uncertainty that requires a shift, a different way of working with leadership. Now we need to teach mindsets. [28:11] To be an employer of choice, you could offer your employees the ability to gain transferable skills to be able to have a lattice career. Today's younger employees have more clarity about their values, purpose, and mindset. Ciela would like employers to bolster that and help them gain the skills that are not being taught in school. Organizations have to train skills that are lacking in the talent pool. [29:36] Ciela is writing a book, Reclaiming Sensitivity, due out in 2023. We generally misunderstand what sensitivity is. Sensitivity is the ability to perceive. Let's reclaim our innate human ability to perceive, both through our emotional attunement and our ability to plan and get curious — the original definition of sensitivity in its widest capacity. One chapter is devoted to making sense of uncertain terrain. [34:36] Jan asks if sensitivity will become the rule in Fortune 500 companies. Ciela replies "Yes, and," because we haven't evolved to the new era of work. There is a place for execution, and that's when you are not in a complex domain. But the level of complexity will start pushing further into the organization and we need to shift our mindset to be ready. We're not there yet. [38:16] Growing up, Ciela traveled the world with her father. She shares how travel shaped her views on perceiving. Her father taught her to travel like a local. She learned to go inside other peoples' experiences, versus being on the periphery. Someone in the gig economy must be first understood from an anthropological view before you can have insight and work with them. [41:07] Ciela talks about a study she did at Google about what makes someone able to shift, adjust and be a transformative leader. She found two things: 1.) They were able to find their stable ground — such as a daily workout, and 2.) They were incredibly good at perspective-taking and perceiving. They could transform because they could perceive but also had stable ground from which to move. [42:14] Ciela's closing thought: Leaders feel tired and burnt out. They "don't have time for innovation; it's too hard!" Ciela acknowledges there's a real tension around the pressures of being a leader right now. Don't let that blindside you from focusing on what matters, which is paving a path for the future. Open your eyes and start perceiving and thinking about the innovative way out of the uncertainty. [43:43] Closing quote: Remember, "Each person does see the world in a different way. There is not a single, unifying, objective truth. We're all limited by our perspective." — Siri Hustvedt Quotable Quotes "Once people came off of the farms and working for themselves to build a life, and moved into the assembly line and the factory, then it was an exchange. You work these hours, you work on this timeline, you produce this number of widgets; … and then you get money." — Ciela "If you look before the Industrial Revolution, a lot of what we understood about work was also related to community. So, we each had a job inside the community to build the community together." — Ciela "We had the baker, we had the candlestick maker; we had all the different functions, but the idea inside those functions was that you were building a society and a community together." — Ciela "We don't operate as solo individuals. Nothing gets done unless there's a collective effort and a collective meaning." — Ciela "Fresh perspectives are required to thrive in an ever-changing context." — Ciela "We are naturally wired to be curious and interested. We have this innate interest as human beings." — Ciela "I actually think we need a fundamental restructuring so that that new perspective, that fresh insight, can be part of the strategy process; they can be part of the systems and so that it gets encouraged and then rewarded." — Ciela "Unless you believe that tension is a good thing and is valuable, you're never going to be able to work with it." — Ciela "[Skills] are expiring so quickly and if you want to be an employer of choice you do have to offer the ability for people to gain skills — transferable skills — and be able to shift and to have more of a lattice career versus a ladder career." — Ciela "It's not a waste of time to bring people into a sense-making exercise because that is how you make progress. Because progress needs tension. And that is a whole different way of understanding how you interact and deal with a complex domain." — Ciela "At the center of all of work are human beings and the experience that we are having." — Ciela Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Ciela Hartanov, PsyD Humcollective Project Aristotle Reclaiming Sensitivity (scheduled to be published in 2023) Stephen Drotter Jack Welch

Jim and Jan discuss the latest crucible expeditions to hopefully inspire and uplift you! Jan has led 21 crucible expeditions to date, and through the diversity of executives and military veterans, they keep providing new insights. Participants come by invitation (or application), and are selected for selflessness, an adventurous spirit, and possessing heroic aspirations to make a difference in the lives of others. Jan's process is to design the experience, select the participants, get them together, and step back to let them learn and grow as a team, as the magic happens. Participants learn they have more in common than they have differences and strong bonds are formed. Listen in to learn how some of these lessons can apply to your organization. https://bit.ly/TLP-324 Key Takeaways [2:03] In this episode, Jan and Jim recap some learnings from two recent back-to-back crucible expeditions that Jan completed. A crucible expedition with Jan is a four-day, three-night wilderness expedition with executives who need a digital detox coupled with military veterans who are transitioning to the business world. The veterans are mostly from the Special Operations community. [3:02] Participants go rock-climbing and backpacking in the middle of nowhere. Really great people get together for some great conversations. Jan selects the executives and veterans on three criteria: they are people who are trying to be as selfless as possible for the greater good, are adventurous, and possess heroic aspirations to try and make the world a better place, in things beyond power and money. [3:57] By selecting those criteria, they get a bunch of strangers coming together as a team very quickly. Based on work Jan has done with surveys by PAIRIN, he believes that when people are out there with strangers, unlike with work colleagues, they have nothing to prove, protect, or promote. [4:24] Jim has been on the Patagonia and Moab crucibles and he attests that they are incredible experiences that move you in ways you would never expect. Jan has done 21 crucible expeditions so far. [5:34] Jan has found that his talent lies not in charismatic leadership but in designing the environment and culture for the team, stepping back, staying out of the way, and letting the magic happen. Jan shares his critique of an expedition Jim was on a few years ago. He says he should have stepped away more and guided things and discussions through questions. [7:30] Jan shares a crucible learning for your work. There is one person in charge, and the second person is the accountability partner. If the leader takes a wrong turn, the accountability partner lets them make the mistake and learn from it. We don't grow and develop without making and correcting mistakes. Let your people at work learn and develop from their mistakes. [10:09] On the crucibles, you've got executives that are making the time and space for their improvement. Jan just spoke to someone who loved the outdoor aspect of the crucible and feels like she needs more time off. Jan tells executives to find the sweet spot between sitting on the hill, figuring out what their team needs, and getting with the team, working with them, and coaching them, first-hand. [11:44] Executive coaches work to try to get people to move from being "here," doing "these things," to being "there," doing "those things." It takes self-discipline, sacrifice, focus, delegation, and trust to get there. That's where accountability partners come in, plus taking time to reflect. Jan tells about the three-hour solo challenge of silent alone-time, thinking for three hours, and reporting on it later. [13:30] The bedrock of the crucible is that people relate to each other as humans, that they're vulnerable. People are dealing with a lot on the homefront and the things they are struggling with come up in their first meeting. Often it is family stuff. The idea that it's OK not to be OK comes through. At work, senior leaders have to be strong and act in a certain way to get performance from other people. [14:49] On a crucible, people let their guard down. They might cry around the campfire or climbing a mountain, even though they never cry. In some ways, their crying and vulnerability bring the team together. It's a gift to show your real emotions. It's not a gift stoic people share at work. And everybody on the crucible is equal. [16:25] Jim summarizes that vulnerability is the resounding theme of a crucible. You are put in a situation where you are physically vulnerable. In the evening discussions, people became more mentally and emotionally vulnerable. Jan believes that whiskey helps. He has seen it. Jim is still close to people from both of his crucible trips in a different way than his golfing buddies. [18:09] When you go out there as a business executive, having little to no experience with veterans, or the elite operators who go on these expeditions, you might think you have nothing in common with them. You come away with respect that goes both ways. You see the military in a different light. The folks in the military now see civilians in a different light. [18:56] Only one percent of the population in America has anything to do with the military. It has become a family business. Most of those families are from the South. The military is very insular. You're around people that think, act, and talk like you. Your world is filled with military acronyms. The military spends money. You're not in the generate revenue, create demand business. [20:03] A lot of the leadership and people challenges are very similar between the military and business. In the past two years, twice, a special operations commando who has carried a flag under his body armor on multiple missions decided to give that flag to executive participants from the crucible — they were flags that could have draped a body if the operator had not survived a mission. [21:37] A crucible changes people's lives. After the Patagonia crucible, Jim took a fork in the road that he might not have taken before the crucible. Jim says when you spend the time and get to know other people, you're much more similar than you think. That kind of experience is something to keep in mind when you look at our divisive society. Take the time to listen to people and gain their perspectives. [22:51] On one trip, sitting around the fire at the end, a leader said it was interesting that "none of us talked about politics or religion. I'm guessing, politically, we go from left to right and in-between. Look how great we got along. This is what Americans should be about." It was a powerful moment. Each participant was only in the category of human with heroic aspirations beyond power and money. [24:24] The crucible cannot scale. It cannot be done with big groups in wilderness areas and some people couldn't or wouldn't do it. So, Jan is writing a book about it with a co-author who is a past crucible participant and military veteran. [25:01] There was little diversity in the first expeditions. Jan credits Sheryl Tullis with helping him make the teams intentionally diverse and representative of the workforce. Jan believes that the men bring out the best in the women participants and vice versa. Jan marvels at the self-confidence of some of the recent diverse participants. They know who they are and what they bring to the table. [27:52] One reason a recent expedition was so good was that there was diversity of age, gender, geography, and company size. The veterans were thoughtful, deliberate, cerebral people, deeply curious about the business world they were going into. These trips are about what happens in the one-on-one discussions as you're walking down the trail, and in the evening discussions around the fire. [29:35] U.S. Navy SEAL Master Chief Stephen Drum has been on the podcast. He is writing a book and Jim is reading the preliminary manuscript for him. Stephen writes that when SEALS wash out, it is never about physical fitness. It's always about lacking strength of character, conviction, or values. Some of the strongest people on a crucible are strongest in character. [31:17] Jan mentions Don Yaeger, a Sports Illustrated writer and author of many books about great athletes. Don says all great athletes hate to lose more than they like to win. The reason Jan became a Green Beret is that he did not quit. He was 18 years old. More than he wanted to win, he did not want to fail. [32:32] In the business world, at some point things are going to be hard. There's always something nagging at you that says, "Quit." If what you are doing is aligned with your values, then you won't quit. If it's not aligned with your values, it doesn't serve you. [33:33] Steve Drotter, a previous guest of the podcast with old-school values, said, "A career is made from having hard jobs that suck and bosses that beat you up. That makes a career!" Today, it seems the job caters to the employee. There is a supply-and-demand issue. The workplace is not as tough as it used to be. [34:50] Jan is hearing from the Army and the Marines that young people entering the services have no outdoor experience; no woodcraft or fieldcraft. Jan wonders what's happening in the business world where people come in without knowing certain things! Jim observes that their writing is atrocious. But now we don't write long business reports, we write Powerpoints. Expectations have changed. [36:54] Job conditions wax and wane, and we may go back to a more tough work environment in a few years, where employers have the upper hand, instead of the employees. These are the leadership challenges we have. [37:38] Jan's last words: The crucibles are a passion and a privilege. The only way you're going to change your narrative is to step out of your comfort zone. Whether you go on a crucible or do something else, Jan and Jim encourage you to think about the things where you find purpose and meaning, where you can make a contribution to the greater good, and be bold and make things happen. [39:14] Closing quote: "Twice and thrice over, as they say, good is it to repeat and review what is good." — Plato. Quotable Quotes "We select the executives and the veterans based on three criteria: We're looking for people that are trying to be as selfless as possible, … We look for people that are adventurous, … and … people who possess heroic aspirations, trying to make the world a better place." — Jan "Most of the time I come back from a trip and I beat myself up. … I evaluate my own leadership, and participation performance, and think, 'Woulda, coulda, shoulda.' I do think one thing I've gotten better at is doing less." — Jan "What I have found, at least for me, is my talent isn't necessarily at being the charismatic leader; it's really being a pretty darn good designer. By that I mean if I design the environment, the culture, for the team, and I step back and stay out of the way, magic happens." — Jan "I will say, even at my advanced age, I'm still a work in progress." — Jan "The lesson won't be learned the same if you go, 'Wait, wait, I can fix this!'. I talked to somebody today that said, 'I do way too many Powerpoints. I should be delegating those and I do way too many because it's just easier and faster for me to do it.'" — Jan "Delegation is usually at the top three of things that people can work on to improve. … People never have the time to delegate. They never have the time and space to do it right or to think they even have the opportunity to do it. And it just is a self-fulfilling prophecy." — Jim "What we're very intentional about, and what always ends up being the big takeaway, is you've got to slow down to speed up. Especially for executives, you've got to figure out the sweet spot between going and sitting on the hill and figuring things out" — Jan "One of the things that we try to do on every crucible is give people three hours. We call it the solo challenge. In some ways, it's the hardest thing people do is go be by themselves, doing nothing for three hours except thinking." — Jan "Out there, people just let their guard down. People sometimes will cry around the campfire. Sometimes they'll cry going up the mountain and they'll say, 'I never cry. I — never — cry.' Did anybody care that you cried? No. … Crying and vulnerability brought the team together." — Jan "You can really build some warm and strong relationships with people you might think are so different from you that you could never, ever have anything in common with them." — Jim Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC PAIRIN U.S. Army Special Operations Sheryl Tullis Stephen Drum U.S. Navy Warrior Toughness Sports Illustrated Don Yaeger U.S. Army Special Forces — Green Beret Stephen Drotter Jan Rutherford, TEDx Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger

Joe McCormack is the author of "BRIEF: Make a Bigger Impact by Saying Less," and "Noise: Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus." He founded the Brief Lab in 2013 after years dedicated to developing and delivering a unique curriculum for US Army Special Operations. He actively counsels military leaders and senior executives on effective, efficient communication, and produces the podcast, "Just Saying." In this conversation, he shares the keys to thinking clearly to get to the root cause of a problem and explain the way forward, simply, concisely, and effectively. https://bit.ly/TLP-323 Key Takeaways [2:45] Joe is the sixth of nine children in his Irish Catholic family. His early career includes a period of aerospace marketing in the aviation field before he started a marketing agency. [4:28] Joe's executive message about communication is "Less is more." You don't need to say much but what you say needs to count. Leaders tend to overwhelm people with information. Be more careful and calculating to be concise. You want to say more but people can't hear it. [6:16] Joe explains why people say too much; a lack of time to prepare, the fear of not giving enough information, the fear of looking stupid, and the fear of failing to handle every contingency. It's never just one of these things; it's all of them. [6:45] People need to consider, "What does my audience need?" They don't need six paragraphs. They're craving brevity. They want two. Give the audience what they want: two well-written paragraphs. More paragraphs will dilute the message and diminish your impact. [7:54] When Joe wrote Brief he considered what was the most essential thing to say in the shortest time given. But don't be too brief. Say what is necessary. When you learn the skills, you can use brevity consistently. There's a payoff for people that have the skillset. [10:30] Joe asks people three questions about executive summaries: "Have you ever heard the term 'executive summary'?" "Have you ever had a developer deliver one?" "Has anybody ever taught you how to build one?" People's answers are normally, Yes, Yes, and No. If they say Yes to the third, Joe asks them how to build one. They don't get it right. [11:33] Three questions to answer that will make a great executive summary: "What are you talking about?" "Why are we talking about this right now?" "So what now; what next?" [13:26] Joe teaches people the habit of briefly summarizing their message. It's different than just knowing it. It's a habitual way of thinking, speaking, and stopping from talking. [15:09] Fortune 500 corporations and Special Operations are alike in some ways. They both have high standards and expectations and they need to deliver, either for ROI or mission success. In the military, there is a lot of training. Corporations are starting to adopt more training. Since COVID-19 businesses are looking to attract talent. Communication and collaboration are how businesses work. [16:59] Collaboration works in moderation. Microsoft came out with a recent study that shows what people want most from their workplace is autonomy. They want to be left alone to think, and then when they collaborate, it's better. If you don't give people time to think about a problem, they come up with an answer on the fly. Deep problems don't get solved on the fly, but only after thinking and then talking. [22:18] When planning a meeting, take 10 minutes of quiet. Then sit down and create an agenda of what you want to talk about; think about it, write it, and edit it. Then send it and follow it. It works. [23:09] There's a time for collaboration, talking, and doing, and there's a time for thinking. You have to figure out in your role, and what that time allotment is. Once you get that, you're not doing too much or too little, you're doing your job. Joe heard of a CEO who said, "I don't think at work; I'm in meetings all the time." The CEO needs time to think at work. [25:34] As leaders, you need to make a quiet appointment with yourselves for a set amount of time every day. During the appointment, write down things that you need to be thinking about; "How do I get feedback from my employees?" or "What's wrong with my current work situation?" Make the appointment and don't miss it. [28:42] Joe's 15-minute podcast, Just Saying, comes from the classes he teaches to Special Operations teams about concise communications that are effective. [30:15] Joe's book, Noise, is about the correlation between clear thinking and lowering noise levels. If you don't manage the noise, your thoughts are scattered. If your thoughts are scattered, your speech is scattered. Ineffective leaders are scattered because they haven't thought about what they are doing and why they are doing it. They start by talking. Clear thinking leads to concise communication. [31:56] When addressing a problem, ask yourself how much you think about it and how well you think about it. Do you dedicate enough time to thinking about your business? Are you constantly getting distracted in your thinking time? If you do 20 minutes of quiet every day, your thinking will be better. You won't excel at it at first, but make it a daily habit and you will get better at it and get focused. [34:49] Tips from Brief: You need Awareness: It's important to be clear and concise. Discipline: Talk and stop talking when needed. Decisiveness: Know when to act and then act. Jim calls these traits a virtuous circle and compares them to the skills of a running back in a football game. [39:37] People have different ways of thinking. Some people need to think about stuff more and some people are quick to answer. There are strengths and weaknesses to both types of people. Make sure the people around you know your processing style. [41:15] Joe shares a success story. A client was able to frame and reframe what he was doing, why he was doing it, what the value was to the organization, how he was doing it, and how he was measuring the impact in a presentation to the board. They didn't cut a dime from his budget. If you can't state your work in those clear terms, people will default to thinking it's not that important, and you will get cut. [44:05] Joe tells of a military client. The skill of being clear, concise, easy to understand, and easy to follow is valuable. In the middle of a briefing, a general asked Joe's client, who was presenting, "Where did you learn to brief like that?" If everyone else is terrible at it and you're good at it, all of a sudden, you're the tallest person in the room. It takes time to prepare for that. [46:21] When Joe presents to a group he focuses on the audience and how they are alike. The common denominator is they all want the shorter version! They may want to know more but they all crave a clear and concise answer. He provides a clear and concise answer. If they want more, he provides a clear and longer answer. Then, if they want more, he provides the clearest and longest explanation. [48:06] Jan and Jim spend a lot of time helping people to focus. A previous guest of the podcast, Brian Caulfield told them "Sell the problem, not the solution." No one has time and everyone is selling a solution. Joe's Brief method is a recipe for managing time and figuring out the root cause of a problem. [49:25] Joe's challenge: Take time and quiet to think about it. Schedule it. Use quiet to your advantage, however much you need. Then talk. Think before you speak. And then do something. Those are separate things. You think about it quietly. You lower the noise. You start to get a root cause. Then you can say the most important thing (not the things). Then watch people say, "I got it! Now I know what to do." [52:13] Closing quote: "Brevity is the soul of wit." — William Shakespeare. Quotable Quotes "To be an elite communicator is to embrace a different standard, which is 'Less is more. I don't need to say so much but what I say needs to count.'" "It's hard because you want to say more but people can't hear it." "There's a famous quote, which is, 'I would have written you a shorter letter if I had more time." "I wrote a 220-page book on brevity. That almost made me insane. Because you start to think about, what really is the most essential thing to say in the shortest amount of time given? That really takes some thought." "If you're pitching an investor, that investor has this aperture or window of interest and what you say needs to sit inside that window. And that takes a lot of consideration. What does that person care about? What's the most important thing? Why am I doing this?" "What I teach people is the habit of doing [a summary]. It's different from just knowing it." "There's quality collaboration and then there's terrible collaboration. [In a meeting] the collaboration is poor. They talk at each other, they don't prepare, it's disorganized, it's scattered, and people don't listen." "You ask people when do you prepare for meetings and how do you prepare for meetings and often the answer is, 'I can't because I'm in a meeting. I'm constantly collaborating, leaving me no time to prepare for the next meeting.'" "If you don't give people a chance to think about it, they're coming up with the answer on the fly. Deep problems don't get solved on the fly. They get solved when you actually have to slow down and think about it. And then you say something." "Great leaders have the humility to say 'I'm going to think about it. I'm going to have others think about it. I'm going to come up with a solution and then I'm going to explain it in the simplest terms possible and hope it works!'" Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Joe McCormack Brief: Make a Bigger Impact by Saying Less Noise: Living and Leading When Nobody Can Focus The BRIEF Lab U.S. Army Special Operations Just Saying podcast Michael Dowling, Northwell Health® Steve Justice Skunk Works Brian Caulfield Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger

Dr. Zoe Chance is a professor at the Yale School of Management, and is the author of Influence Is Your Superpower: The Science of Winning Hearts, Sparking Change, and Making Good Things Happen. Her framework for behavior change is the foundation for Google's global food policy. In this conversation, Zoe describes forms of influence and discusses how good relationships lead to good work. She challenges the people to use influence for the greater good, not just for individual purposes. https://bit.ly/TLP-322 Key Takeaways [2:11] Zoe, a sci-fi fan, named her daughter Ripley after Ellen Ripley from Aliens. [5:16] Almost all of us, even the most successful, have negative feelings about influence strategies or tactics, but almost all of us would also like to be more influential. Influence has a bad rap. We think of it as distasteful. With new science, Zoe is bringing back the idea of influence as a leadership trait. [7:06] People have different definitions of influence and manipulation. Zoe considers influence to be anything that shifts someone's thinking or behavior, including manipulation, persuasion, behavioral economics, coercion, military might, and incentives. Manipulation is someone trying to influence a person in an underhanded way with a motive that does not align with the well-being of the person. [8:13] Behavioral economics nudges are mostly imperceptible, but would not be upsetting to people being influenced for their best interest, such as attempts to get people to save more for retirement. [9:48] Over the past year, up to the rise of bad inflation, employees have had a lot of power, and companies were desperate to hire. There's been a crisis in the service industry. Now the power is shifting to employers. They want people to be there but, for the most part, they don't have good reasons for wanting people to be there. Humu's Laszlo Bock asks, "Why, to look over their shoulder?" [11:51] Jan, Zoe, and Jim discuss whether most companies need to have their employees in the office, and how the return to the office is being handled. [13:51] Jim finds that in-person meetings are much more effective than online meetings that are filled with side-text meetings within the meeting. Jim also observes the need to train new college graduates in the culture of the organization. A culture needs to be maintained and groomed like a garden and that happens better in person. [15:31] Zoe would like to see leaders be better able to create the culture that they want. Bringing people back to the office to experience a negative culture is a horrible plan. [17:19] Jim contrasts the freedom of travel and the restrictions of the cube farm he experienced early in his career. He didn't like working in a cube and it affected his career. Now, since the pandemic, everyone has enjoyed freedom, and once freedom has been enjoyed it's hard for it to be taken away. Zoe says taking freedoms and privileges away will cause a rebellion; she shares an example from a bank. [20:26] Zoe shares a story featuring the Magic Question "What would it take for that to never happen again?", and how to use it. It acknowledges that the people you are trying to influence know much more about their life than you do. It's not perceived as pressure to follow your advice and it can lead to a commitment to the positive outcome you want. [26:05] Zoe gives a shoutout to the veterans who come through the Yale School of Management. The professors love to have veterans in their classes because they are good listeners, and pay attention to the professors, their colleagues, and their classmates. They amplify other people's ideas and ask follow-up questions; they only speak when they feel they have something important to share. [28:16] Zoe tells about her TEDx talk, "How to Make a Behavior Addictive." She tells how a pedometer injured her body, her marriage, and her relationships. She is vulnerable to technology. Social media is addictive because it's designed carefully to keep your attention. There is evidence that social media does much more harm than good. Zoe has studied the psychology that makes people want to come back. [31:28] Zoe explains the manipulative and negative power of variable intermittent rewards. If someone is using variable intermittent rewards to manipulate you, it's an unhealthy relationship. Social media does that to us constantly. [35:38] Zoe shares advice for leaders on having difficult conversations involving challenging feedback. Have these conversations as soon as you realize that there's something amiss, ideally, that day. If you are giving criticism, the longer you wait, the more betrayed the person feels because you've been harboring resentment against them. Having the practice of bringing it up as soon as you can is life-changing. [39:35] How can you have more power within your organization? Internalize the idea that good work comes from good relationships. Reach out to get to know challenging people in other departments and ask questions. "How is this going for you? It's kind of been a struggle for me and I'd like to understand your perspective." It's hard for people not to like you when you reach out and connect with them. [41:42] Research shows men's social and professional networks overlap a lot while women's social and professional networks do not. If you are a woman, Zoe advises you to reach out to women and men at work, especially if you're not already friends with lots of people at work. You will find a friendly rapport and reciprocity that leads to things happening more easily. Men usually have better networks. [43:41] As Zoe was writing Influence Is Your Superpower, she asked a group of people about negotiations. Only 40% of men and 17% of women said they like or love negotiating. When she asked another group to describe their most recent negotiation, their adjectives were overwhelmingly positive. About 80% of them had had a good result and felt empowered! [47:54] Zoe discusses power in an organization. Influence works the same in leadership and relationships. The idea that a leader should never apologize because apologizing gives up power is wrong to Zoe. You build a lot of social capital by apologizing at the right time, in the right way, and by taking responsibility. That's powerful! [49:44] Zoe provides an anecdote that listeners can copy about a leader raising his status by sharing the spotlight. Jess Cain VP of Customer Service at Eversource has a 96% employee engagement rating by sharing a short weekly voicemail including a spotlight on two different team members. She has 1,500 members on her team. Jan notes also that people support what they help create. [53:27] Zoe's challenge to listeners: Challenge the frame of consumerism. Thinking of ourselves as consumers has caused the climate crisis. Think about using your influence in the grand scheme and not just for your benefit. Be a role model. Zoe is donating half the profits from her book to 350.org. [56:00] Closing quote: "Think twice before you speak because your words and influence will plant the seed of either success or failure in the mind of another." — Napoleon Hill. Quotable Quotes "Almost all of us, … have mixed feelings about influence. … If I ask people … what are three adjectives that come to mind when you think of influence tactics, [it's] yucky, greedy, manipulative. … When I ask … 'Would you like to be more influential?", all of them say, yes." "Employees have been more productive at home than they have been at work, … but it hasn't changed the fact that employers want employees to come back." "Employers that offer more flexibility are going to do much better in the long run, because they'll be able to recruit the best talent." "As most academics do, we collaborate with people that we never see and that's partly because we're introverted and so we're kind of happy to be in our little cave. But there's no problem with collaborating with people that you don't see." "If you want to onboard new people and help them make friends; to have informal conversations and collaborations, OK, that's great. We just don't need to all be at the office every single day, or even every single week, right?" "Plenty of surveys have shown that leaders are actually out of touch about the real culture of their company. … the actual reality is kind of a crappy culture. It's horrible to bring people back to the office to experience the crappy culture." "Bringing people back to the office or allowing people to work remotely has a differential impact on women and people of color and various groups. So there's more equality when we have more flexibility. That's another reason I'm generally in favor of giving people flexibility." "Every freedom, every privilege, should be so carefully and thoughtfully doled out with the expectation that what you're giving an employee is going to be in perpetuity, or there's going to be a rebellion." "When she's asking this {Magic Question], she's respectfully acknowledging 'Listen, you know all kinds of things that I don't know," which is always the case with the people we're trying to influence. They know all kinds of things about their life that we don't." "The most addictive piece [of social media] … is called 'variable intermittent rewards.'" "We also often don't really realize what our expectations are until they get violated." "Just internalize the idea that good work comes from good relationships." "There is a 'liking' gap of 12%, where people like you 12% more than you think that they do. And this very much includes people who you have some bit of conflict or strife with." "The majority … have this idea of negotiations that … comes from the movies. … We don't directly observe many negotiations and we're just not realizing that in our lives, most of the time when we're negotiating, it goes pretty well. … Negotiation is not as bad as we think." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Dr. Zoe Chance Dr. Zoe Chance on LinkedIn Yale School of Management Influence Is Your Superpower: The Science of Winning Hearts, Sparking Change, and Making Good Things Happen, by Zoe Chance Google "How Google Optimized Healthy Office Snacks," by Zoe Chance, Ravi Dhar, Michelle Hatzis, and Michiel Bakker Aliens Resident Alien Robert Cialdini Daniel Kahneman Laszlo Bock from Humu Gloria Steinem "How to Make a Behavior Addictive," Zoe Chance, TEDxMillRiver Jeffrey Pfeffer 7 Rules of Power: Surprising—but True—Advice on How to Get Things Done and Advance Your Career, by Jeffrey Pfeffer Eversource Energy Jessica Cain 350.org Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger

Donato J. Tramuto is an American healthcare executive, global health activist, author and former CEO of Tivity Health. Donato's first book was released in 2016, "Life's Bulldozer Moments: How Adversity Can Lead to Success in Life and Business." His latest book, "The Double Bottom Line," is an Amazon Best Seller. Donato is a recipient of the prestigious RFK Ripple of Hope and the RFK Embracing His Legacy Award, for his endless dedication to improving the lives of others. In this episode, Donato discusses the nuances of hardship, developing compassion, being yourself, understanding your associates, and using tenderness to establish trust before relying on tenacity. https://bit.ly/TLP-321 Key Takeaways [2:20] Donato lost most of his hearing at age eight, for ten years, and had a severe speech impediment until he was 17. The loss of his hearing created in him an enormous sense of compassion for people. [4:14] For his latest book, The Double Bottom Line, Donato, and his team interviewed 41 world leaders and surveyed 1,500 employees across the country. Their research revealed that compassionate leaders need to do more than understand others' pain. They need empathy in action to impact others.[6:24] The Double Bottom Line is not just a business book. Donato shares a life experience. In the book, he tells the reader, "Listen to understand, don't listen to react." Donato suggests that if we practice compassionate leadership in our daily lives, we'll take it into our business lives. [8:04] Jan recalls recent guest Michael Bungay Stanier speaking about being compassionate, generous, and kind every day. Jan stresses the difference between being compassionate and being nice. Donato says, "If you want to be liked in a company, you're probably better to go out and get 100 golden retrievers! Compassionate leadership is not just about being nice." [9:38] Donato advocates three Ts: approach your organization with Tenderness first, to get the Trust. Then you can use Tenacity. When making tough decisions, don't start with tenacity. You gain trust by taking the time to understand each person in your organization. [10:42] As the CEO of Healthways (Tivity), Donato avoided the CEO elevator to ride the regular elevator. He shares an event that unfolded from him asking an employee in the elevator how his day was going. Donato would not have known the employee needed help had he not asked the question. Ask questions to get answers beyond, "I'm OK." [11:52] Form deep relationships with your associates. Generation Z and Millennials will form 60‒65% of the workforce and they require compassionate leadership or they will leave. People are reflecting on their lives in ways we have never seen in our lifetime. [13:07] In Donato's last year as CEO of Tivity Health, he took a hard line with an executive in front of nine other executives just before a flight. He felt miserable about it. When his plane landed, he got off and called the executive to apologize to her. Because of that apology, their relationship blossomed. With compassionate leadership, you feel better, you don't take problems home, and you gain credibility! [15:42] Jim quotes Dale Carnegie, who said, "Be interested, not interesting." [16:36] Donato is thrilled to announce that the Boston University School of Public Health is going to convert The Double Bottom Line: How Compassionate Leaders Captivate Hearts and Deliver Results, into a curriculum to teach compassion. Many of the leaders Donato interviewed were not born with compassion. They learned it through someone in their family or a teacher. The book is a resource. [17:26] There is an opportunity to train our current and future leaders on how to lead from the heart. Donato's book has assignments at the end of each chapter to help individuals understand the key nuggets of using compassion. Donato's commitment for the next 20 years is to expand this movement beyond the book and to help leaders see the key ingredients to being compassionate. [20:22] Millennials and Generation Z are demanding a totally different approach to the work environment. Leaders will have to step up and embrace that change or they will be losing significant talent; they won't be as competitive or as effective. The success of The Double Bottom Line is a validation of compassionate leadership. Institutions are asking Donato for training. The time is right. [22:51] Donato proposes a Chief Compassionate Leader Officer for the C-Suite. Boards have got to be willing to ask these questions about culture and trust, to validate that the organization is moving in this direction, as opposed to always looking at a spreadsheet. [25:36] What is the right amount of empathy, vs. making hard decisions? Empathy overload means getting too deep into the situation, clouding your ability to make hard decisions. [27:06] When you ask to understand and have gotten to the issue, then you need to come to an agreement and consensus with "and," not "but." "I understand your issues, and how do we work together to make sure that your needs are met and the needs of the organization are met?" When Donato has taken that approach, they always got to an end result that worked for both parties. [30:24] Establishing trust comes before results. Donato asks permission to help. Once he had a board member, who was not behaving well, refuse to receive some constructive insight. She said, "No. You're not my coach." Trust was not established. The board member did not have a favorable outcome; she was later asked to leave the board. Ask for permission to provide constructive insight and most will agree. [32:40] When is it appropriate to address spirituality in the workplace? Donato believes our connection to a spiritual force influences how we behave. If you are a spiritual person, it's not something to be embarrassed by. The world is increasingly secular. People who do not focus on spirituality may otherwise have positive values that guide their behavior for good. Be who you are. [34:40] Until 2014, when he received the RFK recognitions, Donato had not shared with anyone that he was gay and had a partner. In front of 2,000 people, 500 of whom were his employees, he thanked his loving partner of 23 years. The audience stood to applaud. The more you are who you are, the more you develop an understanding in the workforce that you're like the other person in many ways. [37:07] Do people look favorably upon expressions of faith? If you emphasize too much one facet of who you are, then you make it an issue. Donato shares many facets of himself in case someone has one of those facets in common with him. [41:20] Start to look at what you and your associates have in common. You will begin to realize that there is very little that is different about you. Take the time to understand the other person. [43:20] Age discrimination is real. The average CEO is 59 years old. They hire their executive team from the same age group. Until we are willing to diversify the executive team, we will not integrate the values of the different generations to build an incredible team. Donato has just hired a terrific 23-year-old manager and he has learned a lot from her. Ten years ago, he would not have hired one of her age. [46:55] The organization's values should not be decided only by the executive team. Donato tells of changing a company's 10 hard-to-remember values established by executive leadership into five carefully organized and prioritized values developed with the participation of the associates. [47:34] Don't choose when to be compassionate. Show compassion to everyone. Be compassionate all the time, just as a pilot flies a plane in a safe manner all the time. [48:35] Donato's challenge to listeners: There are many issues affecting us today. Start every single day by asking a friend or family member, "Tell me what you're experiencing today." After you've listened and you've heard them, do something! Kindness and compassion are the new currency of the century. [50:40] Closing quote: "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." — Robert F. Kennedy. Quotable Quotes "The fluency you're hearing today was not there when I was 17. … I share that with you because I think that part of leadership is being … comfortable with your story. Too many people … don't really understand the steps that led to the successful position you might have." "You rent your title; you own your dignity." "If you want to be a compassionate leader, you must have empathy in action to have impact." "Listen to understand. Understand what the other person might be going through." "Everyone that you meet most likely is having a more difficult time than you." "You want deep relationships with your associates. And by the way, we are now faced with five generations in the workforce. Generation Z and the Millennials will soon dominate — 60‒65% of the workforce. If you're not changing as a leader, guess what, you're going to be losing out." "Part of compassionate leadership is doing some self-reflection. You're not always going to be right and when you are wrong and you admit to it you will gain an enormous amount of credibility." "My favorite philosopher Yogi Berra once said, 'You don't want to make the wrong mistake.'" "With five generations now in the workforce, and Millennials and the Gen Z-ers demanding a totally different approach to the work environment, I think that we're going to have to step up and begin to embrace that change or we're going to be losing some significant talent." "A significant portion of [the Great Resignation] is related to feeling good, and passionate, and putting a soul in your company. … If the leaders of today cannot embrace that, they're going to be gone." "We have to be willing to understand that it's not one facet that attracts people to you, it's the entire person who you are, and the more willing you are to share those multiple facets, you begin to develop relationships in different venues." "You have got to have the [company] values developed by everyone in the organization, otherwise, they are not going to stick. And that's what we did. We brought the 10 values down to five. And … we did prioritize them." "You show compassion to everyone and you're compassionate all the time! You don't pick and choose when you're compassionate. It's like asking the pilot 'When do you fly the plane in a safe manner?' You always fly the plane in a safe manner!" Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Donato Tramuto on LinkedIn The Double Bottom Line: How Compassionate Leaders Captivate Hearts and Deliver Results, by Donato Tramuto Tramuto Porter Foundation Health eVillages® Life's Bulldozer Moments: How Adversity Leads to Success in Life and Business, by Donato Tramuto Michael Bungay Stanier Tivity Health (Formerly Healthways) Yogi Berra Dale Carnegie

Michael Bungay Stanier has written books that have sold about a million copies all told, including The Coaching Habit. He founded a training and development company, Box of Crayons, that has taught coaching skills to hundreds of thousands of people around the world. Listen in to see why Michael has been named the #1 Thought Leader in Coaching; and why his work has resonated with thousands… https://bit.ly/TLP-320 Key Takeaways [2:00] Jan and Jim met Michael Bungay Stanier through Bobby Herrera, the author of The Gift of Struggle. Michael is the author of the most successful book on coaching of this century, The Coaching Habit. Michael's latest book is How to Begin. [3:06] Little-known facts about Michael: he was banned from his high school graduation for a balloon prank, he was sued by one of his law school professors for defamation, and his first professional writing was The Male Delivery, a romance short story.[6:07] Michael recently wrote on LinkedIn about his mother's 50-year-old garden. It has a series of microclimates: a vegetable garden, a fern garden, a wisteria garden, and a Wollemi pine. Each area is looked after differently. He compares caring for a garden to caring for the microcultures in an organization's culture. [6:18] As a leader you see that things need to change. You're constantly looking to evolve and grow your organization or strategy. The way you think about engaging all the other people is how change happens in an organization. [8:36] In Australia, some trees need to be burned before they will germinate. Sometimes you need to burn some stuff down to allow the culture to germinate, refresh, and regrow. [10:01] Jan quotes a military mantra, "Selection's an ongoing process. Just because you got to come here and be in this organization doesn't mean you get to stay." Michael notes that our natural wiring is to add. One of the most powerful things to do to drive change is to remove. Michael tells of a study involving adding or removing Lego blocks to make the desired shape. Most people added blocks. [11:05] Most people, when thinking of change in an organization, ask what they need to add. Instead, they would get better changes by asking what 20% of what is happening, what practices, structures, systems, culture, or people, they need to remove! Michael learned of the study by reading Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, by Leidy Klotz. [12:15] We are also wired to give advice, even when it's better to ask a question. Michael counsels leaders to stay curious a little bit longer and move to action and advice-giving a little bit more slowly. Michael explains where we go wrong with giving advice. [14:29] One resistance to having coaching be part of your culture is asking who has time for it. Michael says if you can't coach somebody in 10 minutes or less, you do not have time to coach them. Being curious does not take a vast amount of time. Michael defines coaching as being curious just a little bit longer. Being curious allows you to figure out what the real challenge is. [15:28] In most organizations, people are working very hard to solve not the real challenge, but the first challenge. Because we get seduced into thinking that the first challenge is the thing we need to solve. If you build a reputation as the person who always seems to figure out what the real challenge is, you build a reputation as a strategic player. [16:00] Strategy is knowing what the real thing is and being bold enough to go and try to fix that. Organizations are filled with people who are good at coming up with fast, not very good ideas. If you're just one of them, you're not as valuable to your organization. If you're always the person who asks, "What's the real challenge we're trying to solve here?" you become invaluable. Get the diagnosis right. [16:33] Michael just had a free webinar that asked "What's the one question that unlocks everything?" The question is, "If I'm going to say 'yes' to this, what must I say 'no' to?" He quotes Michael Porter, who said, "Strategy is choice. It's having the courage to make the choice." Most of us are afraid of making the choice. [17:21] There are three levels of things you have to say "no" to 1.) Tasks. What are the tasks I need to stop doing? 2.) People. To whom do I need to say no? Whom do I need to disappoint? 3.) The old version of who you are, so you can say yes to the new version of who you are. [19:38] The book, How to Begin, asks if you understand the prizes and punishments of staying committed to the status quo. People often don't understand how much they get from the way things are right now, even though they're overwhelmed. You need to know what you value and hold dear. There is a tension between the work that has impact and work that has meaning. [21:28] You have to ask what has to be done in this organization for this thing to be a success. What is the work you do that unlocks the best of who you are and has the maximal impact within your organization? [23:15] What does it mean to set a worthy goal? How do you set the goals that matter to you? How do you set a goal that claims ambition for yourself and the world? Michael suggests there are three key elements 1.) Is it thrilling? Does it light you up? 2.) Is it important? 3.) Have you picked a worthy goal that is daunting to you? Will it take you to the edge of your sense of self? [25:14] If you have a goal that is thrilling, important, but not daunting, you have plateaued; you are no longer learning. Michael is now an old dog but he still wants to learn new tricks! Neuroplasticity is how you keep your brain alive and push yourself to the edge. [26:44] Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound (SMART) goals are goals of things for management to track. Leadership goals are harder to measure and track. [30:12] When Michael's father was dying, Michael shared with his father a book chapter he had just written about him, referring to Rilke's poem "The Man Watching," about Jacob wrestling with the angel. Michael saw his father as Jacob, a very good man wrestling something greater than himself and becoming the best of who he was. [33:37] Michael is writing a book and he is finding a lot of resistance in the writing. He feels he is losing a wrestle with an angel and feels the angel's thumbs pushing him down. He asks himself what is his worthy goal. Right now, it's to be with his mother in Australia, to help her with her grief and mourning, and to let go of his need to write his book or anything else. [36:05] Humility and confidence go hand-in-hand, as Michael explains. [37:48] Coaches must consider for whose sake they are talking. Is it helping the client or the coach? Is it for the coach to figure something out or is it for the client to figure something out? Is the coach's talking the best way to serve the client or is it giving the coach status, authority, gravitas, and added value? [39:09] When should coaches talk? Michael says the more he's been around, the more he says the best thing to do is allow the person to figure their stuff out so that they're creating new neural pathways and gaining competence, confidence, self-sufficiency, and autonomy. That's the better way to coach. [40:00] Are you asking questions in service of the client or in service of the problem? Michael says to test it out. Ask the person you are talking to, "Does this feel helpful? What feels useful here in all of this, if anything?" The client will know the answers to those questions better than you will. Figure it out between the two of you. Coaching is a relationship. Stop trying to figure it out all in your head. [42:41] Michael's closing thoughts: "If you can stay curious and you can stay kind and you can be generous, that just takes you a long way down the path of being a good human being. Curiosity, kindness, and generosity are a really powerful triumvirate." [48:19] Closing quote: "Coaching's not a job, it's a privilege." — Lee Corso. Quotable Quotes "Any dominant culture actually has subcultures and microclimates. And you're not just trying to build a culture, you're [asking], 'How do I build these microclimates that are all contributors, culture-adds, to the overall culture of my organization?'" "If you're a leader, one of the mantras you have is 'Stuff needs to change around here.' You're constantly looking to evolve and grow your organization or your strategy in some way. … The way you think about engaging all the other people is how change happens in an organization." "I'm trying to get people in organizations … to stay curious a little bit longer and rush to action and advice-giving a little bit more slowly because most of us are advice-giving maniacs." "There is a place for advice-giving. There is absolutely a place for advice-giving! It's an act of civilization to trade information. What kills us is when we have leaping to advice as our default response." "When you work in an organization, you've got a tension always between work that has impact and the work that has meaning. If you can be really clear on the stuff that matters to you, … then you also have to ask, 'What needs to be done in this organization for this to be a success?'" "If you're not working on the right thing, it doesn't matter if your goal is specific, measurable, attainable, timely, or whatever else. It's like you're not working on the thing that's going to have the most impact and bring out the best of who you are." "With a worthy goal, you can do work on one or two worthy goals, not more than that." "I'm trying to write a book at the moment, and I wrote my words today, but, man, I am finding resistance to this book; the dark force in this book is stronger than usual! … I know how to write a book, but this book, I went, 'What?! This is really hard!'" "I want people to say, 'Look, I know where I'm good, and I also know where I'm not good and I don't need to be grandiose about either of those things. That's what I'm working with. That's the reality that I'm playing with.' That, to me, has that kind of confidence and humility." "The longer I've been around, the more I see that my answers aren't as good as I think they are. And the more I've been around, the more I say the best thing to do is allow that person to figure their stuff out so that they're creating new neural pathways." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Michael Bungay Stanier on LinkedIn The Coaching Habit: Say Less, Ask More & Change the Way You Lead Forever How to Begin: Start Doing Something That Matters The Gift of Struggle: Life-Changing Lessons About Leading, by Bobby Herrera The Rhodes Scholarship Animal House Wollemi Pine UVA Study involving Legos Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, by Leidy Klotz Michael Porter SMART Goals Michael Bungay Stanier video: How To Achieve Your Worthy Goals Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society "The Man Watching," by Rainer Maria Rilke Harry Chapin Corporate Competitor Podcast, with Don Yaeger