Public Defenseless

Like most people, shows like CSI, Law and Order, or even Dexter, may have you convinced that the science used to convict people is airtight. Everything from bite marks, blood spatter, and even finger prints, must be scientifically valid...right? What if I told you, almost all of it is predicated on junk science and the failings of the legal system to catch it? Today's guest is on the show to highlight this and the infrastructure that has been created to support wrongful convictions. Chris Fabricant is the Director of Strategic Litigation at the Innocence Project and the author of Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System. In this episode, we will go over some of the findings in Chris' book that help us to understand how the legal system allowed bad science to become such a powerful tool to wrongfully convict thousands of Americans. Giving his solutions to the junk science problem, Chris will leave you with the hope that it will one day be no more. Key Topics and Takeaways: Hunter's definition of a wrongful conviction. [6:25] How junk science got into the criminal system. [13:37] The issue with pattern matching. [23:09] Society's strong desire to punish. [31:12] How the Supreme Court has played a role in wrongful convictions and mass incarceration. [37:06] The principle of finality. [38:03] Denialism around actual innocence. [47:17] Promoting scientific literacy among lawyers. [1:06:25] Guest: Chris Fabricant, Director of Strategic Litigation, Innocence Project Resources: 2009 National Academy of Sciences Report 2016 PCAST Forensic Science Report Buy Chris's Book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System Memorable Quotes: "I don't think people actually want to live in the type of society that our legal principles say we should be living in." (4:50, Hunter) "What we know about the law as compared to science is that the law is stable." (22:17, Chris) "In reality, crime usually happens. Police get together, form their suspect. And then, a lot of the analysis of the evidence is then with that suspect in mind." (27:39, Hunter) "Science should always be objective, it should be separated from the adversarial process." (29:40, Chris) "There's widespread scientific illiteracy in the bar." [50:59, Chris) "Once you're accused unless you can afford really, really good counsel, you're kind of fucked." (59:56, Hunter) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

In 1976, Ed Monahan was hired as a Kentucky assistant public defender. He would eventually go on to be the state's Public Advocate for an impressive 9 years. Although he no longer fills that position, today Ed comes on Public Defenseless to talk about the impactful work he did in that role and the advocacy he continues to do today. He'll also give you a good overview of the public defense system in Kentucky. While the state has a good foundation, it still desperately lacks funding. In a state that has one of the highest incarceration rates in the nation, Ed Monahan is turning around the system for the better. Key Topics and Takeaways: Ed's background and how he got to where he is today. [9:57] The evolution of Kentucky public defense. [12:01] Alternative sentencing. [26:36] Ed explains Marsy's Law. [38:04] Why many people don't believe in "innocent until proven guilty." [42:09] The greatest public defense victories in Kentucky. [45:23] The NAPD standard that gets the least attention and the most important one. [52:22] The importance of having a private place for legal communication. [56:58] Guest: Ed Monahan, Former Public Advocate for the Commonwealth Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defenders Fund for Justice, Active Contributor to National Association of Public Defenders' Policy Resources: FY19 Kentucky Department of the Public Advocate Annual Report Ed Monahan OpEd on Bad Statistics Driving Policy Ed Monahan & Nina Ginsberg on Marsy's Law Farewell Address from Ed Monahan NAPD Policy on Active Supervision NAPD Policy on Staffing NAPD Policy on Independence NAPD Policy on Proper Professional Space Memorable Quotes: "I came on without any training. I was just handed cases. And so I knew there was a better way." (17:54, Ed) "We have good training culture of active supervision, but what Kentucky has not had is adequate funding through all these years." (20:25, Ed) "There still are many public policy leaders in Kentucky who when faced with those facts of reduced crime rates still have this desire to incarcerate more people for longer periods of time. It's really a financially imprudent and counterproductive way for Kentucky to use its limited resources." (28:27, Ed) "I really believe as public defender leaders, we have to do a better job of communicating the public value of public defense." (34:54, Ed) "I do public defender work out of my deep held beliefs that poor people deserve to have the best representation that money could buy." (38:51, Ed) "Having realistic hope in what's possible in the future is the motivation to continue to apply the talents and skills any of us have to work for a better criminal justice system." (47:50, Ed) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Scott Hechinger is the founder and executive director of Zealous. Through his work, he is fighting hard to challenge injustice through the media and topple the imbalance of power within the criminal justice system. As a former public defender in the Bronx system, he comes on today's episode to talk all about New York Public Defense and his work to make it fairer for all. He explains how he collaborates with the media to change the narrative around public defense and break long-held stigmas. He also shares how he encourages all members of the public defense system to come together for positive change. Scott is an impressive example of one individual who is changing the public defense system for good! Key Topics and Takeaways: Who Scott is and his role in public defense. [8:53] How public defense in New York has changed. [11:17] Why fear hurts the public defense system. [18:54] What people are getting wrong about bail reform. [27:49] Reasons the media is biased. [34:07] Why police and prosecutors often lie to the media. [40:51] Defining justice. [51:48] Scott's goals moving forward. [57:33] Resources: Zealous Prince George County Court Watchers Follow Scott on Twitter Memorable Quotes: "When we see public defenders in the news, it's often saying no comment, we kind of model that behavior and assume that we're not supposed to talk." (16:24, Scott) "If we actually cared about public health and safety, we wouldn't be investing billions into costly and cruel and failed solutions." (19:19, Scott) "Here's what people need to know: the reality is that bail reform is consistent with greater public safety." (33:04, Scott) "I think people just need to realize that, to tell a whole story. You need every aspect of that story. You can't just listen to the same side because they're going to have the same biases." (41:35, Hunter) "I know that when folks are locked up and pushed away, not forced to confront the pain that they caused, it's actually not holding folks accountable. It's easier to put it out of sight out of mind". (56:35, Scott) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Jon Rapping is a former public defender dedicated to changing the system and advocating for true equality. The founder of Gideon's Promise, this nonprofit organization is on a mission to build a movement of public defenders that can drive transformative change within the criminal legal system. In this episode, Jon talks about the challenges of shaping the culture of a public defender office to one that is capable of providing client centered public defense. He explains why so many young public defenders come into this field passionate and ready to drive change, but end up burning out and going with the status quo. By mentoring these lawyers and building a community to support them, public defenders receive strategies to close the gap between themselves and their clients. The criminal justice and public defense systems might be dysfunctional, but this episode will give you hope that positive change is on the horizon. Key Topics and Takeaways: Who Jon is and what he does at Gideon's Promise. [0:21] Why Washington DC has such a strong public defense system. [2:55] The reasons that Americans have embraced the tough-on-crime movement. [12:39] Overcoming discrimination. [16:29] The power of storytelling. [27:11] Fixing law schools. [31:36] What client-centered really means. [43:58] Addiction and mental health issues. [46:56] Guest: Jon Rapping, Executive Director/Co-Founder of Gideon's Promise Resources: Gideon's Promise Gideon's Promise Podcast @gideonspromise @Gideons_Promise Memorable Quotes: "Systems that lack funding and lack independence very quickly develop a culture where public defenders are pushed to go along with the status quo to please judges and value efficiency over representing clients and valuing justice." (4:45, Jon) "No longer do we really believe in a criminal legal system like the founders envisioned. It is a system for perpetuating control of people." (10:45, Jon) "The public is fed a narrative that says marginalized communities, black and brown communities, are dangerous, they're a threat." (13:19, Jon) "Law schools are failing at the responsibility of producing lawyers who understand what justice is." (27:53, Jon) "Culture is a function of our values." (38:44, Jon) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Twitter Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

In a profession steeped in tradition, technological advances can come slowly to the legal world. Given the strapped for cash nature of Public Defense, it is essential that PDs break from the tech aversion prevalant in the legal world. That's where my guests for today's show come into play. Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel in Bexar County, Texas, and Paul Chambers, Public Defender at the Far West Texas Office, are on a mission to modernize the system. Public defenders almost notoriously never have enough time. But when Rocky and Paul discovered automation, they found a way to speed up the system while giving public defenders time to do more things aimed at client focused representation. In this episode, Rocky and Paul talk about how they've implemented automation within the Texas indigent system and the positive effects it's had for all parties involved. Their passion for creating a system that better helps their clients in cost effective ways could truly revolutionize the way many offices are doing buisness! Key Topics and Takeaways: Where Rocky and Paul fit into the Texas public defense system. [7:28] What public defenders don't have time to do. [16:36] How they implemented automation into their offices. [22:43] What could go wrong with computer automation. [34:42] Assigned council contract counsel and automation. [39:32] The evolution of automation. [48:20] Pushbacks to automation. [54:07] Guests: Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel, Legal Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County Texas Paul Chambers, Public Defender Far West Texas Office Resources: Far West Texas Regional Public Defender Memorable Quotes: "I think that's a very positive thing for people to hear criminal defense attorneys have souls." (10:16, Hunter) "I kind of started focusing my time on learning these domains, learning about data science, learning about process automation, robotic process automation, business, process automation, trying to kind of stamp my feet and say, hey, we gotta be paying attention to this. This is something that could really change the game." (16:03, Paul) "The things that we as attorneys need to be focused on is the thing that we have the least amount of time to do, which is why the system is exactly the way it is." (19:24, Paul) "You've got people doing things, these tedious processes that take hours, and they can be boiled down to a click of a button." (26:45, Rocky) "The future for public defenders, I think is pretty huge. I can see a world where as close to zero of repetitive data entry and non-legal work is happening on a case or in an office. And that means a lot." (43:09, Paul) "The point is you can't get somebody to create something for you. We're moving to a world where we create it for ourselves." (49:49, Rocky) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Ready to hear about a different type of law? So far, we've spoken to many public defenders who have done work on the trial level, but today I talk to someone who can take you into the nuances of appellate law. In this episode, I speak with Frances Brown: a former appellate public defender, former Chief Administrative Officer of the Colorado State Public Defender Office, and a current member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission. Frances brings a wealth of knowledge with her about what really goes into appellate law and the unique types of arguments that can be made. She is also a veteran of the legal industry, so she'll take you through what she has seen around the growth of women in the legal profession. Lastly, Frances shares key insight into what goes into the policies and practices of the Public Defender Commissions. Key Topics and Takeaways: Frances' career and how she got started. [0:36] How appellate representations are different from trial work. [18:38] The complexities of appeals. [27:41] Greatest policy victories in Colorado. [31:21] What Frances' current role looks like. [45:24] How Frances has moved forward public defense in Aurora. [50:15] How Women's rights have increased in the public defense system. [1:03:54] Guest: Frances Brown, Former Chief Administrative Officer of Colorado State Public Defender Office, Current Member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission Resources: Aurora Public Defender Office Memorable Quotes: "I love my job. And I always did. And I do feel very blessed for that." (18:26, Frances) "The main thing about appellate law is everything you do is based on the record." (19:49, Frances) "The biggest part of being a public defender is the ability to go to court." (40:19, Frances) "I felt very strongly for many, many years that the public defender system would benefit tremendously from having social workers." (41:44, Frances) "I am an expert in an area of law that nobody needs to be an expert in, which is conflict of interest in public defender offices." (49:07, Frances) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Aisha McWeay is a former public defender and the Executive Director of Still She Rises, the first holistic defense office in the country dedicated exclusively to the representation of mothers in both the criminal and civil legal systems. Today's episode brings to light the unique challenges that mothers face as they navigate the complicated legal world they face in the greater Tulsa community. Still She Rises stands out as an organization that seeks to use the skills of a broad team of attorneys, social workers, client advocates, and community resources specialists to get the needs of each of their clients met. While Aisha and her team take this holistic approach to reach the best possible outcomes for their clients, Aisha and I discussed the many shortfalls that Public Defense in Oklahoma faces because of decades of underfunding. Of all the takeaways from this episode, Aisha I think best lays out just what holistic defense looks like in practice, and acts as an example to those that think progress cannot happen in a place like Tulsa, Oklahoma. Note: This episode was recorded on March 17th 2022 Key Topics and Takeaways: How Aisha got into public defense and the role she is in now. [7:28] The legal world's perception of public defense. [14:50] The unique needs of women who go through the legal system. [20:53] What public defense looks like in Oklahoma. [25:48] What a holistic defense model looks like. [39:11] How Aisha helps her clients with children. [49:28] The art of storytelling. [53:00] Where Aisha wants public defense in Oklahoma to head. [58:37] Guest: Aisha McWeay, Executive Director of Still She Rises Resources: Still She Rises Tulsa Race Massacre George Kaiser Family Foundation OK Criminal Justice Reform Memorable Quotes: "That got me to be so interested in interning with the public defender's office, and quite frankly, I fell in love with the work. I fell in love with representing clients. I fell in love with trying to use my skills to help humanize and tell the client's story." (8:47, Aisha) "As a whole, particularly in America, public interest-driven law is the minority." (17:10), Aisha) "There's so many things that happen that aren't criminal, that are impacting the lives that then get people to criminal." (25:24, Hunter) "When someone is arrested, they should be able to have some say in who is representing them." (29:51, Aisha) "An attorney, despite what some of them say is not always the smartest person in the room, in every single topic." (44:49, Hunter) "Ultimately the call on whether someone can or can't do a thing is not up to us as their attorney. It is up to us to certainly give them as much information as possible to make really honest and informed decisions." (50:46, Aisha) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

In Philadelphia, a whopping 70% of people arrested are represented by public defenders. In this episode, I speak with Keisha Hudson, the Chief Defender of the Philadelphia Defender Association. She walks me through the ins and outs of the indigent defense system in Pennsylvania, and how she deals with the lack of funding and support from the legislature. Pennsylvania stands as one of the only states that provides 0 funding to Public Defenders at the trial level. This lack of funding often forces public defenders to fight the county governments for desperately needed funding. In our conversation, Keisha shares with us her fight for funding in Montgomery County. Despite the lack of funding, Keisha will show us how she is able to lead the Philadelphia Defender Association to be renowned as one of the best offices in the state despite the lack of support. With her expertise and passion, Keisha was a fantastic guest to discuss the challenging cases Public Defenders can face and how failing to fund Public Defense rested at the heart of the Kids for Cash Scandal in Luzerne County. Key Topics and Takeaways: Keisha's background and where she fits into the system. [0:32] How public defenders are using strategic advocacy. [9:27] Building relationships with media. [13:20] The role of restorative justice. [19:33] Why Philadelphia has such a strong public defense system. [41:45] What's going to bring change? [38:38] Where Keisha wants public defense to go. [48:24] Guest: Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender Philadelphia Defender Association Resources: Forward Justice Philly Defenders Pennsylvania Committee on racial and Gender and Bias in the Justice System Task Force and Advisory Committee on Services to Indigent Criminal Defendants Cash for Kids Scandal Lawsuit Against Luzerne County Memorable Quotes: "If you are looking to do public defense and you want to learn how to be an incredible trial lawyer, then come to Philadephia. We have earned and enjoyed a reputation for our zealous advocacy in and out of the courtroom." (1:58, Keisha) "We are appointed in every case where someone cannot afford counsel. And when you have an office that's not funded and resourced, it presents a significant constitutional challenge in meeting those requirements of zealous and effective advocacy." (5:29, Keisha) "You can find something redeeming about every human being." (18:02, Keisha) "I think if you balance the scales and if you have a well-funded, well-resourced public defender office who can push those issues and not fear political repercussions from county commissioners or from the bench, you are able to make a better impact." (36:54, Keisha) "If we truly prevent crime and lower crime rates and impact public safety, then we need to reinvest in solutions we know work and in a robust social safety net." (47:44, Keisha) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

In today's episode, I speak with Stephen Hanlon, who has been working for over 30 years to drive forward public interest law. With the depth of his experience to back him up, he'll explain how data is the key to pushing forward legislation and law suits that can help to reshape and empower public defense. When advocating for a change to any system, there has to be mutli-faceted approaches. Some people respond well to the emotional stories. For others, it is data they find the most compelling, and that is what Stephen brings to the table. Data to help bolster the compelling stories of defenders and their clients from around the country. Stephen Hanlon holds a tremendous amount of wisdom and his passion for bettering the system will inspire you to take action! Key Topics and Takeaways: How Stephen made his way into the public defense system. [9:37] Handling states that won't listen to data. [20:42] Case refusal. [25:31] Why the public defense system needs business plans. [27:14] Will we ever be in a place where public defenders only take the cases they can handle? [33:19] How contract-dependent states should be handled. [52:24] A message from Stephen to the future generations of attorneys. [58:57] Guest: Stephen Hanlon, a leader in Public Interest Law over the last 50 years Resources: Lawyer Hanlon Missouri Study Louisiana Study Oregon Study Colorado Study Rhode Island Study Indiana Study Texas Study New Mexico Study State of Louisiana v Covington State of Missouri V Waters Equal Defense Act of 2019 Memorable Quotes: "Are we willing to live in a society that reflects the principles that we say we value?" (5:56, Hunter) "I want a lever. I want to be the leveraging force to incentivize and indeed force change." (13:01, Stephen) "The whole problem with this thing is that there's no business plan for the criminal processing system. We should have never agreed to do this." (27:14, Stephen) "Without an adequate defense lawyer, a court is not properly constituted." (31:36, Stephen) "Implore your representatives to ask questions besides guns and abortions." (39:06, Hunter) "The federal is the floor, the states are the ceiling. Go for the ceiling!" (40:06, Stephen) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Twitter Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

In this special solo episode, I share some thoughts on the first 16 episodes, thoughts from my interactions with people who have reached out, and the direction the show will be going over the next few points I wanna first thank all the people who have gone through the system who have reached out for help/advice/or to share your story. This project is designed to correct the system so that it helps people like yourself, so thank you! In light of the nomination hearings for soon to be Justice Jackson, I was yet again struck by the fear of being soft on crime. As I discusss in this episode, the Constitution, the bedrock of the American legal system is incredibly soft on crime. I talk a lot about how we manage our desire for justice and the obligations to protect the rights of people. Lastly, I cover the danger I see in our legal system continuing to march away from jury trials and instead towards plea deals. Key Topics and Takeaways: Difficulties in building Trust between PDs and clients [1:43] Soft on crime policies. [9:55] Why jury trials are so important. [13:03] The issues with plea deals. [19:09] What Hunter has learned from each episode to date. [25:44] The importance of supervision. [33:45] The intersection of race and class. [45:32] Memorable Quotes: "The most consistent thing I hear from people who reach out to me is the mistrust in the indigent defense with public defenders." (1:49, Hunter) "If our founding fathers wanted to make a harsh on crime policy, a pro-police constitution, I'm going to tell you they couldn't have done a worse job of doing it." (9:55, Hunter) "The theme is so clear, ladies and gentleman, that we are no longer a system of trials. We are a system of plea deals, and I do not think that bet drives us in the correct direction." (21:29, Hunter) "If you want public defenders to be better, it's good to have supervision in a lot of cases and have supervising attorneys who have that guiding hand and the knowledge to help people make more informed decisions." (34:48, Hunter) "If you actually look at the living wage standard in most states and most communities, we don't come anywhere close to giving attorneys to all the people who cannot actually afford them." (46:41, Hunter) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Twitter Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com