Public Defenseless

Kentucky is known to have a strong and well-structured public defender system, but it is held back by poor funding and an unresponsive legislative body. This week, Hunter speaks with Ernie Lewis, the former Public Advocate of Kentucky and former Executive Director of the National Association for Public Defense (NAPD). They discuss Ernie's work in public defense reform and the best ways to get needed changes. Ernie attempts to answer the ultimate question—what does it take to transform the system so it's responsive to the needs of those in it? Instrumental in the formation of the NAPD, he'll explain how it began and why the work of this organization is so important. He'll also explore how to balance the needs of public defenders with the needs of the individuals going through the system. Ernie brings to the show a refreshing, optimistic look at the public defense system and its future. Key Topics and Takeaways: Ernie's background in public defense and how he got started. [4:50] Why Ernie wanted to work in poverty law. [8:49] Ernie's three goals as public advocate. [15:23] Fines and fees. [17:38] Eligibility. [21:08] Ernie's work at the NAPD. [37:32] Caseloads. [48:40] Ethics in the legal profession. [52:14] Guest: Ernie Lewis, Former Public Advocate of Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the NAPD Resources: Final Report of the Blue Ribbon Group Public Advocacy Commission Justice Jeopardized Final Report NAPD NAPD Principles Department of Public Advocacy Department of Public Advocacy FY19 Annual Report Indigency Determination Statute KY Rev Stat § 31.211 (2021) Memorable Quotes: "I then wanted to go to law school and represent poor people to give justice to poor people." (10:35, Ernie) "Since 1998, we were able to reduce reliance upon fines and fees considerably. So that by the time I left, our budget was about 40 million and only about 3 million of that 40 million came from fines and fees." (17:45, Ernie) "This is a state obligation to provide enough resources so that each person charged with a crime who is eligible for a public defender, gets a well-trained, qualified attorney with support staff." (20:49, Ernie) "Probably the biggest problem in indigent defense is the vast gap between representation for felonies and representation for misdemeanors, especially in lower level courts." (28:11, Hunter) "Indigent defense has always been one of the last priorities of government." (43:58, Ernie) "My generation of public defenders has participated in mass incarceration. We have witnessed just since 1970, the destruction of people, families, neighborhoods, and we've become now the place with the highest percentages of incarceration in the world." (55:38, Ernie) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

This week, Hunter sat down with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris to discuss one of the pressing issues facing millions of Americans: Student Loans. As of today, there is roughly $1.75 trillion in student loans that remain outstanding. For many, these debts will carry with them until they hit retirement age. This is a debt that cannot be discharged via bankruptcy and the high interest rates make it extremely difficult for those in low paying public service jobs to ever pay off the principle. That is where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) comes into play. While it is far from a perfect program, PSLF has helped thousands of people serving the public. After 10 years of service and 10 years of payments, certain loans can be completely forgiven. Yet, the program, as many government programs are, is extremely cumbersome to navigate. Recognizing these difficulties and wanting to help, Jane and Kyle offer their expertise to guide people through the PSLF process to lift the burden of debt off of their shoulders! Key Topics and Takeaways: How much Debt Kyle and Jane Had [15:00] History of PSLF [24:00] The Problems with Loan Servicers [28:00] Specific Requirements for PSLF [32:00] Hurdles to PSLF [34:110] Future of PSLF and the Student Loan Industry [41:00] PSLF Is For More than Just Attorneys [47:38] The Politics of Student Loan Forgiveness [59:00] Guests: Jane Fox, Staff Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society Kyle Morris, Public Defender, Nashville Public Defender Office Memorable Quotes: "Jane and I often joke that talking to servicers is like our clients talking to the Police. It's usually not a good idea without an attorney present" – Kyle [28:45] Resources: Contact Kyle: kylemmorris@jisnashville.gov Contact Jane: Jfox@legal-aid.org For Help with PSLF Call DOE Ombudsman 877-557-2575 Public Service Loan Forgiveness Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com

Sara Mayeux is a law professor at Vanderbilt University and the author of the book Free Justice, A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America. Sara discusses the progressive era, the 1950s and the development of public defense of modern America, and the supreme court's role throughout it all. The development of public defense has largely been dictated by the growth of the nation through urbanization, industrialization, and economic inequality. Sara and Hunter talk through how culture impacted the development of law as it stands today. This episode lays a foundational understanding of how our public defense came to be what it is today. A must-listen! Key Topics and Takeaways: The 3 topics of Sara's book: Free Justice [3:02] How quickly political concepts can switch their meaning and understanding based on the cultural context that people are raised in. [4:04] Background and experience of Sara Mayeux [6:10] The era of mass incarceration [7:03] What the progressive era looked like, and how this culture impacted the criminal courts and criminal system. [12:35] Defense law perspective versus the state [22:51] The disparity between east coast and west coast public defenders in the 1950s. [31:20] The impact of the cold war on public defense. [37:40] The OJ Trial and people getting off due to technicalities in the legal system. [49:58] The American Bar Association's approach [52:00] Guest: Sara Mayuex, Professor of Law and History, Vanderbilt University Memorable Quotes: "There's this broader cultural sense in which we think of American law as adversarial. Meaning that, especially in a criminal case, the defendant is up against the state and that's his adversary or enemy. And so of course, the defense lawyer and the prosecutor are going to see themselves as doing battle. And they're not going to see themselves as having any kind of shared goal or shared mission." - Sara Mayeux "The dominant standard understanding of what happens with respect to public policy debates during the Cold War is that anything that looks even remotely too much like communism or socialism is basically written out of the realm of possibility for American policymakers." - Sara Mayeux Get Sara Mayeux's Book: Free Justice: A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America https://uncpress.org/book/9781469661650/free-justice/ https://law.vanderbilt.edu/bio/sara-mayeux Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

The Massachusetts public defense system presents arguably the best example of how contract public defense could work, largely in part to today's guest—Anthony Benedetti, Chief Public Defender of Massachusetts. Their system is made up of approximately 80% contract attorneys, and in this episode, Anthony walks us through how he helps to oversee these attorneys and ensures a quality level of representation for all. He'll also break down the complicated funding of the system, and why $60 per hour just doesn't cut it. Anthony is working hard to create a future where more layers will want to go into public defense and is optimistic that the Massachusetts indigent defense system will continue to improve! Key Topics and Takeaways: Who Anthony is and what he does. [9:29] What Massachusetts public defense looks like and how it took its form. [13:25] Legislation advocacy done by Anthony's office. [18:24] Training and performance standards for Massachusetts contract attorneys. [20:17] Why the Massachusetts pay rates aren't enough. [31:00] Justifying the high attorney standards with the lack of pay. [41:37] How attorney shortages have affected Massachusetts. [49:37] Defining what a crime is. [1:05:50] Guest: Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel, Committee for Public Counsel Services Resources: CPCS Webpage @CPCSnews Twitter 2004 Report Assigned Counsel Manual Mass Bar Report on Attorney Pay Memorable Quotes: "It's one thing in theory to talk about public defender pay and how much people make and, and all these things. But at the end of the day, it's the working-class Americans who were represented by these people who pay the price." (6:08, Hunter) "I like to tell people that there are just so many injustices on a daily basis, that it is pretty easy to get re-pissed off and realize that you have to keep up the fight each and every day on behalf of our clients." (12:40, Hunter) "I think it's, there are a whole range of reasons why people choose to do this work, but at the end of the day, when they choose to do this work, they have to do it in a certain way." (23:05, Anthony) "It is really hard for us to get people out of law school who want to do this full-time or close to full-time." (42:56, Anthony) "The longer that you go without counsel, the more you are disadvantaged being able to present a defense." (51:32, Anthony) "I'm pretty confident that things are going to get better in Massachusetts." (1:08:35, Anthony) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Franny Forsman has been working in Nevada indigent defense for several decades, and today she brings her impressive breadth of experience to the show! Franny is a former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada who has worked long and hard to improve the system. Today, she speaks with us about how the ACLU lawsuit has brought drastic changes to the state of Nevada and why there are still so many weaknesses. She'll explain how the Nevada public defense system handles the massive amount of rural coverage and share her dream for the future of the state. Franny will reassure you that all together, Nevada's public defense system is heading in the right direction! Key Topics and Takeaways: A history lesson on Nevada public defense. [2:36] Franny's background and role in Nevada public defense. [12:49] What Franny took away from her time as a social worker. [14:33] The major pushback from the legislature around funding. [20:18] Pleading guilty. [35:16] What has changed since the ACLU lawsuit. [40:17] Why the new system will be different. [58:32] How rural counties are handled. [59:17] Guest: Franny Forsman, Former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada Resources: ACLU Law Suit State of Nevada v. Second Judicial District Court. 453 P2d 421. at 424 (Nevada 1969) 6AC Report Nevada NLADA Report Clark County DIDS Website Memorable Quotes: "It's David Carroll who said in his interview, a radical way to fix the system is to simply look at how many people are not actually getting attorneys. Look at how many cases are actually being carried. Look at how little work is being done in these cases." (6:51, Hunter) "There was never a consequence to the state to underfund the system." (20:41, Franny) "It's the state's responsibility to make sure that this gets right. It's the enforcement of all of the laws, including the sixth amendment that the state is responsible for." (34:07, Franny) "Wherever you live, find the nearest courtroom. Odds are if you walked in there and you see a public defender working and you asked them how many cases do you take a year, more likely than not, they are going to have absolutely no idea." (53:56, Hunter) "My feeling is that we will always have to have contract lawyers because of conflicts of interest." (1:01:55, Franny) Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

On the night of September 15, 1992, in the Nashville Tennessee area, teenager Christopher Luckett was shot and killed. Two days later, another teenager Cyrus Wilson was arrested for the crime. Even though there was only circumstantial evidence and many witnesses later admitted they were coerced into lying, Cyrus was found guilty and spent over 20 years in prison. Today, he is 48 years old and still fighting for his innocence while on parole. In this episode, Cyrus tells his story and how he is working to get the verdict overturned. Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative joins him to add her expert perspective. The fact is, thousands of innocent people are sitting in jail right now, powerless and without the resources they need. The question is, how can we get the system to listen and take action? Key Topics and Takeaways: A quick summary of the case. [0:18] Dawn talks about her public defense background. [16:58] Why Cyrus originally waived his right to an attorney and what his later attorney interactions looked like. [26:16] The appeals process. [45:20] Where accountability should be put in place. [52:13] Reasons attorneys and judges become complacent. [1:06:16] Lawyers and judges need to understand the power they have. [1:17:29] Cyrus's life on parole. [1:22:45] How Cyrus is still trying to prove his innocence. [1:29:34] Two things Cyrus wants people to understand. [1:36:40] Guests: Cyrus Wilson Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville, Founder and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative Resources: Choosing Justice Initiative Contact Cyrus Wilson Read about Cyrus' Case The Trials of Cyrus Wilson Cyrus Wilson Granted Parole, Set to Be Released Memorable Quotes: "Once the police hone in on their guy, it can be difficult to get them off that gut intuition that police are very often instructed to follow." (1:53, Hunter) "If we continue to believe that the only way victims can be made whole is by somebody going to jail, then we are gonna continue to end up in situations like this, where, who cares who goes to jail as long as somebody did." (12:48, Hunter) "I don't necessarily know that there were more problems in public defense 30 years ago than there are today. I think that things have been bad and they've been bad a very long time." (31:26, Dawn) "You can't give someone like 50 cases and understand that and think that they're realistically going to investigate cases appropriately." (51:32, Cyrus) "We need to recognize that lawyers and judges in positions of power perpetuate this system that oppresses people." (53:09, Dawn) "I've never committed a crime and I could be continually detained and incarcerated for something that I did not do that I'm still held accountable for right now in this moment. No matter what kind of life I create, it could be taken away at the drop of a hat simply because this situation has never been totally corrected." (1:24:02, Cyrus) "Innocent people and people who are not necessarily innocent should be treated justly and fairly without bias." (1:37:29, Cyrus) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

In this episode, I speak with Mark Stephens, the former chief public defender of Knoxville Tennessee. Tennessee public defense has been stuck in neutral, if not reverse for a long time. In fact, almost everything was established in the 90's and hasn't changed much since. Rutherford county incarcerated approximately 48% of children referred to juvenile court in 2014, and the statewide average for juvenile incarceration is 5%. Today, we talk about two alarming reports that have been released discussing the representation of juvenile offenders in the state. In Tennessee, public defenders are elected to 4 and 8-year terms. Mark also highlights how this unique system affects the levels of representation and the bottom line. Overall, Mark leaves us with his ideas for a better system and the hope that the Tennessee public defense system will change for good. Key Topics and Takeaways: Mark's position in Tennessee public defense and how he got there. [6:28] Elected public defenders. [10:48] Public defender workloads and caseloads. [15:16] One of the biggest issues facing Tennessee public defense today. [20:10] Community outreach. [26:29] Holistic representation and public defense. [37:19] The average people going through the Tennessee indigent system. [41:06] Resources at a county level. [46:03] Guest: Mark Stephens, Former Chief Defender of Knoxville Public Defense Resources: ProPublica Report 1999 Spangenberg Group Report Shelby County Juvenile System Report Knoxville Public Defender Nashville Public Defender Memorable Quotes: "Children, for the most part, we have an opportunity to rehabilitate them." (3:23, Hunter) "Public defenders are paid the same that assistant district attorneys and district attorneys are paid, which is the way I think it ought to be." (14:52, Mark) "People generally don't care about the adults that are in the criminal justice system, because we've got this idea that they're all bad people and that they're all guilty." (25:59, Mark) "This state of crisis or chaos that a criminal charge brings in a person's life is also an opportunity for that person and that public defender to bring about change." (38:12, Mark) "I think the legislature has been shortsighted in terms of fully understanding the potential within the public defender office." (47:32, Mark) "People would disagree with me, but I think every aspect of the system, as I know it ought to be scrapped and redesigned." (58:30, Mark) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, you'll hear about public defense from the judge's point of view. Tom Boyd is a former Michigan District Court Judge who currently works in the court administration office. At one point one of the weakest systems in the United States, his work to improve the indigent system has driven forward the future of Michigan public defense and has left a positive precedent for other states. The 6th amendment is the ultimate protection against government power that is designed to keep people safe from a government acting out of control. Many people believe that judges should be held accountable for protecting the constitution, so bettering the public defense system should be more of a priority. Sharing his unique perspective, your mindset around public defense will be challenged and you'll see that a lot more than you think goes into fair representation for all. Key Topics and Takeaways: Tom's background and his role in the Michigan indigent system. [6:01] A judge's function in the Michigan courtroom. [10:21] Some history on the Michigan indigent defense system. [16:01] What gets in the way of constitutionally adequate representation. [21:21] Prosecutors and public defense. [28:03] Ending the plea deal epidemic. [34:57] Tom's experience being on both sides of the bench. [45:42] Where Tom wants Michigan public defense to go. [49:39] Holding prosecutors accountable. [54:00] Guests: Tom Boyd, Former Michigan District Court Judge, Michigan State Court Administrator Resources: Michigan Indigent Defense Commission NLADA Report "Race to the Bottom" Memorable Quotes: "I want to talk to more than just public defenders. I want to talk to all range of people who are involved in the criminal justice system, because part of reform is going to require that all of the people in the system work together." (2:07, Hunter) "When you're the judge at the end of the conversation you win." (13:35, Tom) "If we can be crass about it, the judiciary is a service industry." (22:05, Tom) "I think that the Michigan indigent defense commission, which is still in its infancy, you know, six years, seven years, something like that. Has established itself as reliable and dedicated to advancement and done a good enough job that there are very few judges who fought the relinquishment of control." (25:56, Tom) "There are bad actors in the legal system who take advantage of individuals and they should be found, rooted out, and gotten out of the system." (48:29, Hunter) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, I speak with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand, two former Colorado public defenders and current members of the Aurora Public Defender Commission. The three of us dive deep into Public Defense Commissions, how they function, and the important work they do in advocating for public defenders. The commission side of public defense offers a unique insight into how policy is made and the types of negotiations that need to be made. The fact is, there's more that goes into it than you might think! If you are a public defender who wants to start a commission or someone who's not an attorney and wants to get involved, this is the perfect episode for you! Key Topics and Takeaways: Sara and David's background. [5:27] Sara's challenges of being in a remote area. [11:01] The progression of David's career. [14:16] Sara and David's work in public policy. [20:10] How the commission works with policymakers. [29:44] Why commissions are important. [33:10] Building institutional support. [37:38] Staying on the peoples' side. [50:31] Guests: David Kaplan, Former Colorado State Public Defender and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member Sara Hildebrand former Public Defender in Durango/Arpahoe County and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member Resources: Aurora Public Defender Commission Memorable Quotes: "You don't have to be a lawyer to make these changes, to be passionate about reform and taking efforts to change your community. That's a key goal. That's a key theme of this show is that you do not have to be an attorney to understand this and to make changes." (2:27, Hunter) "I think those of us who ended up being public defenders never lose the spirit of being a public defender." (9:55, David) "When you do policy work, you have to have a broader understanding. There has to be, I believe a greater amount of compromise." (24:32, David) "Our obligation as defenders, whether as a state defender or a municipal defender or a federal defender, is to zealously advocate for our clients. And like David was saying, that means that our clients should feel like they have the best lawyer in the courtroom." (28:21, Sara) "We represent the people and the community, right? And so in a democratic environment, that should mean something." (40:01, Sara) "I think a key part of our role is to humanize people that are accused in a system that's just expert at dehumanizing people." (56:27, Sara)

In 1994, Barry Jones was arrested for the rape and murder of his girlfriend's four-year-old daughter. Even though his innocence is obvious to all who would look, he sits on Arizona's death row, waiting to be executed for a crime he did not commit. Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards are the former federal public defender and Investigator who worked on the case and join us for this special two-hour episode to give all the details. They walk us through this horribly unjust trial and explain how the criminal justice system set Barry up for failure from the start. From junk science to bad witnesses, nothing about this trial was fair. To make it worse, the Supreme Court has reaffirmed that actual proof of innocence is not enough to overturn an execution. Syliva and Andrew's account of this story will change the entire way you view the criminal justice system. Key Topics and Takeaways: Sylvia and Andrew's background and how they got Barry's case. [10:13] The police perspective. [21:37] The lack of story in this case. [29:08] The evidence provided. [30:29] Junk science within the trial. [40:50] Barry's timeline on the day of the crime. [57:29] How to bring an innocence claim into federal court. [1:14:31] Dr. Howard's testimony. [1:24:43] What finality is and why it's there. [1:42:45] The conviction integrity unit. [1:49:27] Guests: Sylvia Lett, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona and Former Federal Public Defender Andrew Sowards, Former Federal Public Defender Investigator Resources: The Intercept Story of Barry Jones Shinn vs Ramirez Ryan vs Martinez Herrera vs Collins Ring vs Arizona Arizona Capital Representation Project Arizona Innocence Project After Speaking with Barry, Sylvia informed me that he welcomed letters from those with "authentic interest in the injustices in his case". He would welcome correspondence to speak about his case. While he says he has no time for sympathy, I can only imagine showing him that there are people who care, who see the injustice done to him, and who are fighting to lift up his story will help him maintain his fighting spirit. Please do not write to him simply for the novelty of writing to someone on death row and please mark all mail with "NON-LEGAL MAIL" His address is: Barry Lee Jones, ADOC #114690 ASPC Florence Browning Unit P.O. Box 8200 Florence, AZ 85132 Memorable Quotes: "A just system is not just one that protects the innocent. It also protects everybody involved in it because that is a merciful system." (8:10, Hunter) "Barry's case is kind of the poster case of failures all around, in many ways." (31:54, Sylvia) "So often we think justice is solving the crime, but justice also involves making sure that we are doing right by the accused." (47:47, Hunter) "If you don't know the person, if you don't live with them, don't be judging their emotion, their emotional response, because every single person is different." (51:36, Andrew) "If you are concerned or worried about state power and the threat of the state, I promise you that it is the work of federal public defenders, federal investigators, and public defenders around the country who will do more to protect you from the power of the state than a gun ever will." (1:48:49, Hunter) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com