Public Defenseless

Every minute of the full conversation with Andrea Lyon is available to listen to, but Hunter wanted to make sure everyone had an easy time accessing the last 30 minutes of the conversation where the discuss a potential Office of the Defender General at the Federal Level! Guests: Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School Resources: Andrea Lyon Website Follow Andrea on Twitter Check out Andrea's Book Office of Defender General Website Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Dubbed by the Chicago Tribune as "The Angel of Death Row", Andrea Lyon is one of the most successful Capital Case Public Defenders in the country, but she is so much more than that. As an author, educator, former law school dean, and advocate for criminal justice reform, there is next to nothing that Andrea has not done in her career. On today's episode, Hunter and Andrea discuss her experience as a Capital Public Defender, in Academia, and most importantly, her push to create the Office of the Defender General at the State Level. There are many reasons why it is essential to create the office, but none may be more important than the desperate for Public Defenders and the defense bar to play a larger role in policy decisions at the federal level. It is so important that Hunter pulled out that section of the conversation and released it as its own episode. If you want to hear Andrea's thoughts on the Office of the Defender General you can find it at the end of this one or on the other episode released today. However you go about it, it is essential to hear Andrea out and begin thinking seriously about pushing for deeper systemic changes to our legal system. Guests: Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School Key Topics and Takeaways: How did Andrea Start off in this Work [8:30] Things that Stood Out in Andrea's Career as a Capital Public Defender [10:45] Andrea's motivation for staying active in Capital Representation [20:47] The arguments that helped Andrea be a success in Capital Representation [24:45] How can Law school Improve the way it teaches the practice of law vs the theory of law [34:40] The need for the Defender General [51:21] How RICO is used and abused and how a Defender General could have stopped similar policies from being implemented [54:30] How the Defender General would Operate [1:01:00] Resources: Andrea Lyon Website Follow Andrea on Twitter Check out Andrea's Book Office of Defender General Website Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

In this episode, I speak with three inspiring individuals: Michelle Sages, a Lead Deputy State Public Defender of the Denver Trial Office, Travis Weiner, a Deputy State Public Defender of the Greeley Regional Office, and James Hardy, a Lead Deputy Public Defender in the Appellate Division of the Colorado State Public Defender. Together, they speak on The Defender's Union of Colorado and why it's essential to have a public service union. Then, they go into how they have been working with both state officials and the general public to gain support for their cause. They'll wipe away all misconceptions about public service unions and prove that despite the criticisms, a union is beneficial for everyone involved. Even though Colorado is in the top 5 states with the strongest public defense system, there is still a long way to go. Public service employees are still drastically underpaid and overworked, while clients are not receiving fair access to representation. Michelle, Travis, and James are actively advocating for a system that ensures public service employees can keep up with the requirements of their job while clients can get the help they desperately need. With their passion for transforming the system, Colorado public defense has a much brighter future. Key Topics and Takeaways: Michelle, Travis, and James explain how they got into public defense. [7:06] Why the defense union was created. [12:36] Reasons public service and a union are not in conflict. [28:45] Biggest goals of the union. [36:38] Problems with the leadership in public defense. [37:34] The legal & structural issues that the union faces. [56:06] How the union avoids becoming public defender centered. [1:10:57] Policy work that needs to be done. [1:17:11] The future of Colorado public defense. [1:27:32] Why the union is necessary. [1:33:43] Guests: Michelle Sages, Lead Deputy State Public Defender, Denver Trial Office Travis Weiner, Deputy State Public Defender, Greeley Regional Office James Hardy, Lead Deputy Public Defender, Appellate Division, Colorado State Public Defender Resources: Defender Union of Colorado Polis, Democratic lawmakers and local governments are all squaring off over public bargaining rights Colorado's Public Defender's Office workers announce a union effort, but state laws stand in their way Colorado's public defenders launch union drive for lawyers and support staff. But there's a catch. "Highly Overworked and Grossly Underpaid": Why Public Defenders Launched a Union Memorable Quotes: "If we can't do this work without all of us, we need to improve the conditions for all of us." (13:16, Travis) "I think a lot of people leave because they believe that the work is so important and they find themselves unable to do it in a satisfactory way within the system." (18:31, Michelle) "Our goal as a union is to provide the best client representation we possibly can and to ensure effective representation for all of our clients and where we feel like that our system is falling short is in retention and creating a sustainable career path for folks, which long term hurts our clients' representation." (29:30, James) "One of the problems with the revolving door system is oftentimes for supervisor positions, it's not who's the most qualified or the best fit, it's who's up next, Is that the best way to train the next generation of public defenders? Is that the best way to select someone that brand new public defenders are gonna look to and model after? I don't think so." (37:52, James) "Everybody knows it is a totally open secret that it is a completely unconstitutional, dysfunctional system and people are not getting the representation that they deserve and need." (43:57, Travis) "The system does not work if every gear in it is not functioning properly." (1:06:26, Travis) "Having a system that's not functioning well does not benefit victims of these crimes either." (1:08:17, Michelle) Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

The Oregon Public Defender System is broken. Due to a shortage of attorneys willing to take on the cases, hundreds of people wait for months without ever having an attorney appointed to their case. During this wait, they are often required to return to court to mandate another hearing because attorneys are not available to take the case. With each passing day, evidence grows harder to find, the memories of potential witnesses fade away, and whatever trust the accused had in the legal system withers and dies. To help Hunter understand how this crisis consumed Oregon Public Defense, he spoke with Chris O'Connor, a Public Defender at the Metropolitan Public Defender in Multnomah County Oregon. After 20 years as a Public Defender, Chris is the perfect guest to help understand the history and decisions leading up to the crisis. As he reveals, report after report over the years have continuously showcased the many failings of the overly complex, contract based public defender system. Yet despite the issues being obvious, the legislature and the judiciary continued to allow the issue to fester. This episode is a must listen if you want to best understand the uphill battle the Public Defenders in Oregon are facing! Guests: Chris O'Connor, Public Defender, Metropolitan Public Defender Office, Multnomah County Oregon Key Topics and Takeaways: How did Chris start off as a PD [8:11] Structure and History of Oregon Public Defense [10:21] Findings and Impacts of the Sixth Amendment Center [14:30] Why does the contract model still persist in Oregon? [20:48] Can this system work? [25:15] Impacts of Drug Decriminalization [28:45] How this crisis has been framed by the media and the lack of accountability by the judiciary and the legislature [31:44] Why do people have to come to court 12 times just to have a case dismissed [38:55] The judicial cowardice problem [40:00] The impacts of the attorney shortage [42:00] The judicial coup that hit the PDSC [53:00] What can be done [1:02:00] Resources: Multnomah County Public Defender Follow Chris on Twitter Sixth Amendment Center Report Vice Investigative Reporting on Public Defender Crisis 'No sense of justice': Hundreds cycling through Oregon courts without public defenders Firing of Stephen Singer Oregon Public Defense Law Suit ABA Report on Oregon Public Defense Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

What is the true impact of fines and fees? In this episode, I speak with two inspiring individuals—Adam Danneman, the Chief Public Defender of Jefferson County, Alabama, and Leah Nelson, the Research Director of Alabama Appleseed. They bring with them two unique perspectives and a boatload of passion for public defense. Alabama does not have a universal indigent defense system and there is no obligation for any county in the state to operate a specific type of public defender system. Together, Adam and Leah talk about the specific challenges that this setup creates and how they work within this system. Overall, Adam and Leah give advice to people who don't live in the south on how to move past their preconceived notions. After this episode, you'll look at southerners in an entirely new way! Key Topics and Takeaways: Adam and Leah introduce themselves and explain their role in public defense. [9:02] An overview of the structure of Alabama's indigent defense system. [14:37] Witnesses and investigators. [20:15] Why there is a lack of treatment in prisons. [29:59] The top issues impacting public defense representation in Alabama. [32:45] Why a speedy trial isn't a guaranteed right under the Constitution. [35:52] Issues with fines and fees in Alabama public defense. [38:38] Alabama's indigency determination standard. [57:50] Guests: Adam Danneman, Chief Public Defender, Jefferson County, Alabama, Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed Resources: Alabama Appleseed Report New York Times Article Jefferson County Public Defender 1901 by Shake the Field with Felt Five Thompson is an impactful song about Alabama's white supremacist 1901 constitution. One of the rappers, Evan Milligan, is also the plaintiff in Milligan v Merrill, a case challenging Alabama's decision to pack Black voters into a single congressional district. This case will be argued at the U.S. Supreme Court on October 4th, 2022. Memorable Quotes: "Do not leave behind the south, do not leave behind Alabama because you think it is not worth helping." (7:15, Hunter) "Making sure that people have qualified counsel is a high priority for me and for Apple Seed, but it's not a high priority for our legislature." (16:30, Leah) "One fair negative stereotype about public defenders, not just in Alabama, but everywhere, is that we're overworked." (33:08, Adam) "Pretty much every crime in Alabama comes with some financial penalty on top of maybe jail or prison time." (39:11, Leah) "We really undermine public safety and we undermine the independent judiciary and independent prosecution system when we force prosecutors and the courts to generate revenue for the state." (53:46, Leah) "We spend more money in Alabama, probably everywhere to collect this debt than it actually brings in if we recovered all." (1:05:10, Adam) Contact Hunter Parnell:hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

When people discuss the criminal legal system, you may often hear someone say, "the system is not broken. It is acting exactly was it was designed." On today's episode, Hunter and guest Ray Keith discuss the ways in which the legal system in Texas is designed to kill people. As the head of the Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases in Texas, Ray is intimately familiar with the statutory language and process that directs the jury towards a death penalty over life. While this is a highly technical episode, it is important to dig down into the weeds to examine the insidious ways the legal system is operating exactly as it was intended. Hopefully, this episode will also spark a curiosity in you to understand the complex legal technicalities in your own state may drive harsher punishments. While Texas is the focus of this episode, we know they are not alone in designing a system with the goal of producing the harshest possible outcomes for those being processed through it Guests: Ray Keith, Chief Public Defender, Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases, Texas Key Topics and Takeaways: What the RPDO does and how Ray got there [7:40] Difficulties of being a Criminal Defense Attorney in Texas [13:20] The Texas Capital Statute [15:36] How a Capital Jury is Selected [20:00] The Questions you Can't ask a Jury [27:00] The Punishment Phase of a Capital Case [30:46] Why Doesn't Texas Explain "Reasonable Doubt" to Jurors [32:30] The Questions Jurors need to Answer to Give the Death Penalty [34:70] The "Evidence" Used to Prove Future Threat [40:00] Why Rehabilitation is disregarded in Texas Capital Cases [45:00] The Second Question Jurors Consider [48:00] How the State Proves Someone Should be Killed [50:00] The Way Jury Instructions Lead to Death Sentences [58:00] Why Is this So Hard to Fix and What Can be Done [1:03:00] Resources: Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases Website Texas Indigent Defense Commission Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter sat down with Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA), to discuss their recent report, "At What Cost? Findings from an Examination into the Imposition of Public Defense System Fees. If you ask the average person what the word "free" means, they will likely tell you it means whatever is considered "free" does not have any cost associated with it. So, when people hear, "If you cannot afford counsel, one will be appointed to you at no cost to yourself", people would likely assume that this attorney is "free". Anyone who is familiar with our legal system, however, will inform you that you will likely have to pay for your Public Defender. In fact, in many states, the first time you appear before a judge, that judge will make clear to you that your counsel will cost you. From a top-down look at all 50 states, to deep dives into the Public Defender fees in Oklahoma, Iowa, and New Hampshire, Marea and Hunter discuss the various ways these fees trap people in never ending cycles of debt that can lead to future incarceration, loss of driving privileges, and work to perpetuate a broken, predatory legal system Guests: Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA), Key Topics and Takeaways: How Marea got into this work [8:00] What is the NLADA [9:30] What do you mean my "free attorney" isn't free [10:30] Difference Between Fines and Fees [14:20] Methodology of the Study [17:50] The Issues with Indigency Determination [21:00] Findings from Oklahoma [26:13] Findings in Iowa [39:40] Findings in New Hampshire [53:00] Solutions to the Issue [57:00] Resources: NLADA Report NY Times Report on Alabama Fees and Fines Alabama Appleseed Report Fuller v Oregon (SCOTUS found there is a legitimate interest in states recovering the cost of representation) Bearden v Georgia Follow NLADA on Twitter Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Today Hunter had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean, two public defenders from the Arizona. Of all the episodes, this may be the one that makes you the most pissed off. From the outset, Katie and Nate drop story after story that reveals the deeply regressive and reactionary structure sustaining the status quo of mass incarceration in Arizona. From the powerful money interests in the DOC, to the work of a single, motivated individual, Arizona can easily be described as one of the most pro carceral states in America. Constantly ranking at the top leader boards in state spending on incarceration, Arizona is this way by design. Despite all of the issues laid out (and there are a lot of them), Hunter hopes you walk away with hope that change in a place like this is possible because of the dedication and determination of fighters like Nate and Katie!! Guests: Nate Wade, Public Defender, Pinal County, Arizona Katie Gipson-McLean, Public Defender, Maricopa County, Arizona Key Topics and Takeaways: How Nate and Katie got into Public Defense [8:06] Inconsistencies from county to county in Arizona Public Defense and Criminal Justice [12:00] Understanding the Politics of Arizona [21:29] How a single person shapes Arizona criminal justice policies [32:33] Can punishment have a deterrent effect? [36:45] The corruption and power influencing Arizona reforms [39:10] Why it is so difficult for defense attorneys to have their voices heard in Arizona [50:30] Katie describes the broken plea bargaining in Maricopa County [57:00] The impacts of the Victim's Bill of Rights on public defense [1:03:34] Hope for change in Arizona [1:14:00] Resources: Maricopa County Public Defender Maricopa County Know Your Rights Podcast Pinal County Public Defender Office Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director says Mass Liberation The Invisible Hand of Steve Twist How an Arizona man who's never held elected office has shaped one of America's most punitive criminal justice systems. Arizona Criminal Justice Commission Check out there board and the lack of defense counsel!! Living United for Change in Arizona (LUCHA) Follow Katie on Twitter Follow Nate on Twitter Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter revisited Public Defense in the state of Missouri with a conversation with Mary Fox. Mary is the Director of the Missouri State Public Defender system, and this conversation picks up where Hunter's conversation with ACLU attorney, Anthony Rothert left off. Back in March, Hunter and Anthony discussed the history of Public Defense in Missouri and why the ACLU brought sued the state for its failure to provide counsel to all who could not afford it. While Hunter highly recommends checking out that episode, it stopped short of talking about the ways in which the Missouri Public Defender's responded to the lawsuits. That's where Mary steps in. Since the second lawsuit was filed, Mary and the Public Defenders of Missouri have fought and won several key victories for more funding and more staffing. The doom and gloom of the previous episode is no where to be found, as Mary highlights the hope that now fills Missouri Public Defender System! Guests: Mary Fox, Director, Missouri State Public Defender Key Topics and Takeaways: Mary's Background and journey to being the Director [7:13] What Mary walked into when she took over in 2020 [13:47] How Mary was able to win the fight [16:00] Maintaing the Momentum in Missouri [22:00] Recruiting new attorneys to come to Missouri [24:45] How the Death Penalty works in Missouri [29:45] Tackling the issues around Sexual Violent Offenders [37:59] Indigency Determination in the State of Missouri [41:50] Concerns around Municipal Courts in Missouri [49:10] Fees paid to Contract Attorneys in Missouri [55:20] Mary's goals for public defense in the future [1:00:28] Resources: Missouri Public Defender 2021 Missouri Public Defender Annual Report Missouri lawmakers recognized for legislation supporting court automation, public defenders The ACLU of Missouri applauds the Missouri Legislature for its work in allocating $3.6 million in funding to the Missouri Public Defender System in this year's budget. Messenger: New fellowship could ease public defender shortage in rural Missouri Missouri public defenders set to hire 53 attorneys with extra funds in state budget NO MORE WAITING LIST FOR MISSOURI PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM SERVICES With fresh state funding, understaffed public defender system looks to hire Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com

Today, Hunter sat down with Nick Barber, author of a recent piece in the magazine In These Times called "In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt". In his investigation and writing, Nick uncovered a corrupt private probation system that keeps people under control of the state for years in what appears to be an effort to generate revenue for Clayton, Georgia and for the company. As is so often the case, Nick highlights the story of two poor people who lives were upended by this abusive system of debt, and it is clear throughout the work that at no point in time did the city ask, "Does this actually improve public safety?" From this episode, Hunter hopes you are able to walk away with a better understanding of the insidious ways in which we have forced small towns around the country have trapped countless Americans in a cycle of poverty through the crushing force of the criminal legal system. Guests: Nick Barber, Journalist and Former Investigator for the Southern Center for Human Rights Key Topics and Takeaways: Nick's work with the Southern Center for Human Rights and finding this story [7:15] Nick's advice to those who want to get into Court Watching [11:00] Background on Clayton, Georgia and Municipal Courts [13:50] The Impacts of Private Probation on Ms. Lynn Davis [18:10] Where is the Public Defender in Clayton, Georiga? [27:00] The Impacts of Judge Sneed on revenue generated through fines and fees [31:38] How the system trapped a 72 year old woman in years of debt [35:30] How Georgia tried to address Private Probation [37:30] How Clayton Georgia worked around the State's remedy [40:00] Private Probation and Predatory Municipal Finance [44:50] The impacts of smaller federal spending on small town America [50:00] Has the private probation system improved [54:30] Will things change in the state? [58:00] Resources: In These Times Article The Bonds of Inequality Conditions in a New Mexico Jail Follow Nick on Twitter Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram Twitter www.publicdefenseless.com