At Sea with Justin McRoberts

Welcome to the At Sea podcast. I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. The emphasis I've placed so far this season on the practice of poetry actually positions us to have some conversations well to continue some conversations that I care a whole lot about. Really specifically beginning with this episode of Focus, concentrated focus on the intersection and overlap between psychotherapy and religious practice. As someone who's benefited both from therapy and spiritual direction, this intersection is a place I experienced a great deal of life while also coming to a great deal of very complex and really interesting questions about what it means to be me, what it means to be human, what it means to have relationship what it means to be a person of faith.One of my favorite people working in that intersection at that intersection is KJ Ramsay. KJ works at that intersection as a therapist and an author who talks profoundly about issues of faith. And it just so happens, has recently produced a volume of poems and prayers, which makes such a beautiful bridge into the heart of this conversation about what it means to be fully human. To value that which is beyond our understanding and to dig really deeply and thoughtfully into the things we can and should understand, like brain chemistry. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and I think you will as well. Check it out.Links for KJ RamseyWebsite - https://www.kjramsey.comLatest Book - The Book Of Common Courage Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Among the many gifts I got early in high school was an F I got on a paper from an English class, a paper that the teacher said was too poetic. What he didn't mean by that is that I had written great poetry in the wrong place. What he meant really, in large part, is that it was really poorly written poetry. A lot was going on for me at the moment. One was I really wasn't actually prepared to write the paper he suggested I write. I didn't actually do the assignment the way it was assigned. So there was that I was a bad student. Secondly, a lot of my literary influences weren't literary in the academic sense. They were. They were poems. They were Lyrics by Morrissey or Robert Smith of the cure any number of folks in the new wave kind of genre of music, and I was deeply influenced by their words because I felt their words. And the topic of the paper. I don't remember specifically, but I wanted to feel it when I wrote about it. It had to do with what you wanted to be when you grew up. And for me, at the time, I was a freshman. That was a feeling question. It wasn't an idea question. It wasn't a mathematical question. It wasn't a reasoning question. What I wanted to be when I grew up was a feeling question. It was something that was attached to my emotions. And the words that I would have normally used in an academic setting. It just really didn't do it for me. So I reached for poetry. I know this now, as a 49-year-old guy, I wouldn't have articulated quite like that as a freshman, but I'm pretty sure that was what was going on is, yeah, I'm supposed to write this paper about my feelings and dreams. It feels too boring to write it like an essay. I'm going to write it like a poem. That totally worked for me emotionally. It did not work for me at all. Academically, I got an F on the paper. I think I ended up with a D or a C. In the class. That anecdote, as silly and goofy and hopefully as funny as it might be to you, also reflects a tension I have often lived in, not just as a writer, but as a person when it comes to the particular uses of language for particular things. proper grammar, and getting the words right to speak correctly. I think it doesn't just have a place; I think it's vitally important. Learning the rules of grammar is important. Part of what makes learning the rules of grammar important is that I know intentionally when working outside of those rules, that that realm of poetry is at least as important as learning the rules of grammar and getting it right. One of the reasons I'm spending so much time talking with poets during the season. And referencing people's poetic work because I think the world of poetry and the practice of poetry might help to unlock a little bit of what's missing in our communication with one another. I've watched a conversation between two very like-minded persons about a topic that they, for the most part, really agree on devolve into vitriol and disgust and insults. Because a wrong word was chosen because of the wrong phrase or because of a word in the wrong place. And the emphasis on getting the right word, the correct word became more important than the person on the other side of the word that we stopped in those moments asking the question, what might this person mean by it? Which is a question about the person, and we instead get locked up on the fact that that would not be the word I would choose. They didn't say it or do it the way I would. We miss one another. When a relationship, in general, much less than a broad cultural scale, becomes about getting it right. Part of what poetry does is it invites us to move through conversations to more patiently, slowly, and attentively look at, listen to, examine, and take in the language in front of us, whether that's the language we're using or the language someone else is using in conversation with us. And not to investigate that word, according to some scale of its rightness, but allow the possibilities, the word opens up to open up the possibilities in relationship. At one point in Jesus's work life, he was asked by one of his disciples, Why he spoke to people in parables. If you know the work of Jesus, you know that a lot of the time, he would tell a story about a field or a farmer about sowing seeds. Instead of telling the story straight or telling the truth straight, he would use analogies to use imagery. And one of these folks who spent a lot of time lives and why do you speak to be Put in parables. This is from the NIV, it says, he replied, This is Matthew 13, he replied, Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them, whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance, whoever does not have even what they have, will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables. And then quoting from the book of Isaiah, he says, Though seeing they do not see through hearing, they do not hear or understand it is fulfilled in them from the prophet Isaiah, you will be ever hearing but never understanding you will be ever seen but never perceiving. Now, I'm going to assume that you've had conversations like this in which you are speaking, and the person who is listening to you isn't actually listening. They might be looking at you, and they might like have an ear open to you, but they're not really listening. They've maybe decided what you're going to say. Or maybe they've decided how they're going to feel about what you're going to say in any number of options outside of actually attending to what it is you're saying, which is why I really love what Jesus says. He says, Listen, I speak to people in parables because I'm challenging them to listen. You are actually doing the work of listening. And because you're doing the work of listening, you'll continue to receive more of this, which is how relationship works. And by that, I mean all relationships, interpersonal relationships, corporate relationships, societal relationships, administrative relationships, and cultural relationships. It's all predicated on Listening, paying attention, and not just to the words used, but to the people using the words. Poetry asks us to slow down and attend to the words, not just themselves, but all the possibilities. Those words open up between us and those we are conversing with. Again, there I am at 15 years old, trying to find words that actually match what's going on in my guts. And absolutely, Mr. Griswold was correct that using an academic paper to work that out was not the right place. But it was the right thing for me to be doing. And the more time I've spent in areas in my life where the right words, academically, even societally, just don't actually match what's going on in me or around me or between me and other people. The more stretching, invitational practice of poetry has allowed me to create space in my own psychology and, yes, in between myself and other people. Which leads me to this. I honestly can't see the next season of life here where I live in the United States, becoming less nuanced, becoming less complicated, culturally, racially interpersonally. I think it's going to get weirder. And the weirder it gets, the harder it will be to connect with one another if we're expecting people to jump through all the right hoops in order to communicate with us. So how do we become better listeners at think reading some poetry on occasion, somewhat regularly, and maybe even getting into that practice of finding some space in our lives to maybe write some poetry to get outside of the language we're used to using in our academic, relational, religious spaces, and create a pattern in our own minds in which words don't kill relationship but open up the possibility of it Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

I don't remember the exact details surrounding my introduction to Gregory or his work. I do remember that upon my first reading, I was captured. In fact, one of my favorite live performance moments ever was sitting with my friend David dark, who's also been a guest on this podcast several times, at a reading of Gregory Orr's at Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Mass., and having one of those shared when I grew up, I would like to be like that moments. I could say quite a bit about his work in order to set this up. Instead, I would like to get you directly to the interview he reads from a most recent volume of his towards the tail end. And I'm so glad that he did. I think you will be too. Enjoy this. Links for Gregory OrrWebsite - http://gregoryorr.netLatest Book - Selected Books of the Beloved Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

On most Sundays, I get the privilege of gathering in my house with a group of preteens and reading through bits of the scripture and talking about them. And then praying together, it's a thing we call the good news Club, which borrows from a tradition we've gleaned from. One of my favorite parts of these gatherings is that we don't just read from one translation of the Bible. We actually crack open three or four different translations and interpretations of the Bible and read the same story, the same text, and the same bid, including the Jesus storybook Bible and the message we read from the NIV. We have an NRSV. We have like a bunch of different texts and translations. And it's been a kick to pay attention to the ways these sometimes first-time Bible readers will notice the difference between word usages, that in this version of Mark, this person uses this word. And over here, they use this word. It's the same story, the same moment, different words.The practice is less about developing a taste for or a particular preference for a specific translation. It's about language, and not only is it okay that there are different words used to describe the same thing, it's, in fact, necessary and important because the reality of God is bigger and broader than the language we use to describe it in the same way, that the language we use to describe and relate with one another, is smaller, and less nuanced, and less beautiful than the reality of one another. See, words don't define reality. They express and sometimes define our experiences of reality.Which is part of why I'm spending the time I'm spending to chase down books and interview poets this season. Poetry, as a practice reading and writing, has the power to help loosen my grip on language.And perhaps more importantly, it helps me loosen the grip I think I have through language on reality.It brings me to this. See, in the past, I would get hung up on the words we use and the ways I thought that those words missed reality. I couldn't capture all of what I meant by Christian with the Word Christian. I couldn't capture all of what I meant by God with the Word of God. I couldn't capture all of what I meant in a word. And so I wanted to stop using certain words like the ones I just used. I didn't want to use the Word Christian anymore because I didn't want to get tangled up in what you might think I might mean when I used the word, and then that just got exhausting. So my emotional posture shifted, and I decided I would redeem words that meant something to me. And that process and effort also got exhausting.So I've shifted again, and nowadays, I'm trying to be less of a word, cop, period, and just become a better poet.Poetry disorients and then reorients me to the language I use and the language around me. And the most important part of that process is actually that disorientation, the work of detachment and detangling, not just from the words themselves, or even the meanings I've attached to those words, but detangling and detaching myself from the control I think I have over reality, by way of my words, and by way of the meanings I've invested in them. Back control keeps me from seeing you as you are as opposed to seeing you the way I've decided you are. And it keeps me from encountering God as opposed to the way I wish or want God to be.And here, I think of a series of words that I found useful for detangling myself from words. God rid me of God, a prayer by Meister Eckhart.See, I don't want to try to abandon the words I've learned to use, or I don't want to try to entirely revamp my vocabulary to be more open unstead. I want to let go have the grip I think I have on reality through the words. I use poetry as a practice moves me towards that open posture, to be more receptive as a human so that I can receive you as you are so that I can receive God as God is and know that my limited words can only point in the direction of the nuanced, complex and abundantly beautiful reality of you.And if God,words don't become less powerful, by way of the poetic practice or less meaningful, by way of poetic practice, no instead, through poetry, I develop a far deeper respect for language, so much so that I simply refuse to use words like a tool of control.The poetic practice teaches me that words can be a way to saythere's more here than I could begin to even imagine pinning down what I'm about to say. But I hope that with these carefully chosen words, I might point you in the direction of the reality I've experienced, a reality well beyond my capability in word to control or even a name. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry, I could not travel them both and be one traveler, long I stood and looked down one as far as I could, to where it bent in the undergrowth, you might recognize that as the opening stanza to the Robert Frost poem, The Road Not Taken. It's the poem that ends, Two roads diverged in the wood, and I took the one less traveled by, and it has made all the difference. It's probably even more familiar. I remember being exposed to that poem. It was probably the first poem as a whole poem that I was actually taught or read really fully exposed to. I think I was a freshman in high school. And as I was exposed to and read and saw this poem, really for the first time, two things happened in me that I recall. One was a kind of, I guess, embarrassed response poetry, poems. They were written by and for hyper, emotive, weird people. And that if you were into poems and you liked poetry, then you must be a hyper-emotive and weird person. I was on the football team. I ran track. I was a guy.That was the one thing happening in my brain. The other thing happening in me was that I was really resonating, and I really liked the poem. And I really liked the rest of that section in our English class about poetry. Something about the very intentional use and shape and reframing of words actually resonated with my soul. That tension resolved itself over the years, till the beginning and even later in high school, as life got weirder and required more complex and deeper emotional responses. Poetry became an actual feature in my life as something I attempted to write. But definitely, I started reading more poetry all the way through college. And to be entirely honest, really, in the last decade or so, the more I've spent time, intentionally on, in my own inner universe, and done my best to come alongside people working in the arts and working in religious spaces where life is hard and complex and weird and strange.Poetry has not just become a useful tool or a powerful practice. It has become a really safe, generative, and transformative aspect of expression.It's a beautiful part of my life.I listened to Scott Cairns's read and lecture at the festival faith in writing. I believe it was in 2016. And not just not only was I struck by his writing and the way he read the things he wrote, but I was also really captured by the way he talked about his work. That's one of those. It's one of the aspects of art-making that oftentimes inspires me. So someone who's excellent in their craft and has the ability to talk about what they do, how they do it, and why they do it. I've been thinking about and hoping to catch Scott to talk about the power of poetry, the essence of poetry, and the necessity of poetry for a really long time. And so I'm really glad I got some time to sit down with him. I enjoy this conversation. I think you will as well.More info on Scott Cairns Hearts and Minds Bookstore Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Welcome to the At Sea Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McRoberts. I'm recording this on December 21, 2022. It is the winter solstice, the day where I live that features the least amount of light. The night is longest. And I'll be honest with you, I'm not feeling great. I don't know if I quite have the flu yet, but I might. Because my daughter does. And I found that out a few hours ago. It's been really since Sunday. She wasn't feeling well on Sunday. She was feeling not so great on Monday, so she didn't go to school, then she didn't go to school on Tuesday, and then today, Wednesday. She certainly did not go to school. She has been very sick. Last night, when she went to bed, it was mostly just cold symptoms. That was sniffles, and it was a little bit of a headache. And then she mentioned that one of her ears wasn't feeling great. Oh, I thought. And not too long ago, her being in bed by herself. She woke up and started vomiting. Her brother came downstairs to let us know that she had, in his words, puked everywhere. So we went ahead and cleaned up what we could clean up. And if you're a parent, you're probably not as grossed out as others would be because kid puke is different than other puke in some way. And then, as I was settling her back in and tucking her back, she asked me if I would stay because she was scared. Sure, absolutely. I got my pillow and a blanket. And I laid down on the floor, and I did not sleep really much at all. She woke up every 1015 minutes. She was uncomfortable. She was nauseous, and she threw up a few more times. And I'll be honest with you, it wasn't a pain in the butt to get my back hurt. And, like I said, it didn't sleep, and my shoulders hurt. And you know, I'm almost 50 sleeping on the floor is not my forte. But there was this gift that I was experiencing, especially in the darker, later, deeper hours of the night. I get to be there for her. I get to be the person in the room. When she doesn't feel well. And a scared. I wanted to be there. So it was a kind of a joy. Speak speaking of joy. In a few days, we, in the Christian tradition, celebrate Christmas, this magical and miraculous celebration of God becoming a person, and I do get it. There's that I'm aware of the sort of kerfuffle of sorts around Jesus not being actually born in December. I've heard it's June. I've heard other things. And that's fine. I'm not at all saying that that conversation is unimportant in the grander sense or in some grand sense. I will say, though, on a personal level, I'm not all that moved by it. See, what I don't really care about when I come to religious faith or religious practice are things like exactly where Jesus was born or what the exact date was. I am instead drawn to religion, religious faith, and religious practice. With questions more like when it is darkest when it's hardest, when it is coldest. Is God not just there? But willfully and joyfully? There when my life is not okay. When I am not okay. In my wife, is God with me? And IS GOD WITH ME joyfully? And happily and willfully. We've had a few conversations with Caitlin. Over the last few days, and certainly, today, as this sickness has gotten worse and keeps dragging on, she understands she's sick. It's just something that's part of being human. There are going to be days when you don't feel well. And sometimes those days run into other days and become weeks. There are just times in life when you don't feel well. And what she has wanted, honestly, more than medication is to just be around people. That's what she's wanted. Does she want the medication? Honestly, she doesn't like the medication cuz it tastes like crap. It really does. It's awful. I can't believe we haven't fixed that yet. But more than medication, she wants to know that people are going to be with her in her room overnight, on the couch next to her during the day, that if she's not going to feel well if that's part of what it means to be human, then will you live that with me and again, this is part of what makes so much poetic sense that we celebrate the incarnation of God. In a time when for a lot of us, things are coldest, and the nights are longest. Not just because we feel more comforted, but like good religion does, it points us forward that if we want to be loving and caring people, when it gets harder when it gets darker, and when it gets colder, what the people around us are really going to ask is, are you going to be there with me? Will you show up when it gets bad? Will you show up in a way in which you risk getting some of what makes me sick and bearing some of what brings me down. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

It's possible, if not likely, that if you are remotely pop culture aware and spend any time on social media platforms, you'll see news about or posts about the death, the passing of dancer, DJ, choreographer named tWitch.I was struck by the moment I heard about his passing. A fan of his, I've liked his work, I've liked him on TV. I've liked his posture online otherwise. I was saddened by the fact that h e's only 40 years old. And I felt the thing that I read that Jen Hatmaker wrote in her public post.She said this line that struck me and sort of set this thought in motion, she said he was suffering, and we didn't even know pain has never been easier to hide. Some of what you might have seen, which is what I have seen, is folks confessing or saying out loud, like, you know, he seems so happy. It's so shocking. And it's always shocking. When depression or anxiety, when mental health issues surface. A lot of the time, it's a surprise; we're shocked. We're even to some degree scandalized. We didn't know that that was going on in someone's head in someone's heart. And especially when it comes to light that someone has been thinking about ending their own lives, much less when someone tries to end their own life. It's surprising, it's shocking. And it shakes us, I would hope. It shakes us when someone chooses to end their own life.Shared some of his own thoughts along the same lines. This notion that he was suffering and we didn't know pain has never been easier to hide. On the one hand, that's so true. You don't really know what someone is up against. You don't really know what's going on in someone's head. And then Carlos adds this caveat to that. He says, Yeah, but you do know that it's just hard sometimes for anyone. We do know you don't know the particulars, but you do know or maybe should assume that everyone is facing something.See, in these moments, when we are publicly engaging with or talking about depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation, I hope we don't become more fearful of depression or anxiety. And the threat is to those around us and even to ourselves. I hope we don't become more afraid of the things that steal life. I do hope, instead, that we become more patient and kind, more long-suffering, more thankful for the raw gift it is to no people at all, including knowing their darker corners and the darker corners of their souls because that is one of the gifts of knowing someone knows that they are up against something, and valuing even their struggles. So what if instead of becoming more fearful of depression, and anxiety, and suicidal ideation, we actually change our posture towards one another. Because no, you don't get to know the specifics of what someone is going through in their lives. But we really should assume that they're going through something. And that it's hard. It is one thing to say I want to be someone who helps people carry their heavy things. It is another thing entirely to actually do the work of carrying those things for other people. It is an entirely different thing to become the kind of person who moves away from transactional relationships and begins to consider the gift is to be alive and to share in being alive with those around us, including those around us carrying heavy weights. We are, as of the day of this post, right about the middle of the Advent season, a season on the Christian calendar which we anticipate the birth of Jesus in the incarnation of God. And in a conversation with friends recently about the incarnation. We talked about the humanity of Jesus, we talked about what it looked like what it meant for God to be human. And one of the folks in the group pointed out this moment, and if you read the gospels, you know this moment. If you don't, I'll try to highlight it quickly that at some point in the life and ministry of Jesus, a lot of the people who were following Jesus stopped and just left. He had said some things publicly. So that I think we're confusing the pressure on him with from religious powers and political powers started scaring people off, and hordes of people who are following Jesus left, and he turns to the disciples, and the phrase in the scriptures is, are you going to leave me to? What about you? Are you going to leave too? And this person in the conversation said, you know, there are a couple of different ways to read that. And one is the way I grew up reading that it's it's a test like, Okay, well, everyone, everyone else left, what about you? Will you stay? Are you going to be faithful, like it's a test of the disciples? The other reading is that he doesn't want them to leave. Because they're his friends. And he kind of needs them emotionally. And instead of, are you going to leave me too. It's, what about you? Are you going to leave me to later on in the life of Jesus, right towards the tail end when things get hardest? He invites these two friends, these two disciples of his, to stay with him as he prays through the night, knowing that he's about to be arrested, he's about to be crucified. He knows this is the darkest moment in his life. And he invites these people. We call them the disciples. He invites these friends of his to stay with him as he prays to the night, and they keep falling asleep. And the way the writer of Matthew records this moment, he says that he awakened Jesus, Jesus awakened Peter, and said to him, could you not stay awake with me for even one hour? Again, is there a challenge to Peter to become a better person, bear, and more faithful friend, likely possibly? Is there also, though, the desire in Jesus for his friend to be with him when it's hardest and darkest? See that human reading of Jesus doesn't just normalize the need that you and I have for other people, and actually lifts that up and says, part of what it means to be a whole person is to need the people around you, especially when it's hardest and darkest. And if that's the kind of humanity that we are called to by the person of Christ, then maybe that's the kind of humanity we want to or ought to actually approach other people with, that the issues people are facing and the weights they are carrying, are not just obstacles to a more fulfilling experience of other people, but they are in fact, invitations to help the people around us carry their wounds and their shadows the way we would like the people around us to help us carry ours that it is, in fact, a gift to share in the struggles of those around us. So while it can be sometimes impossible to know the exact details and the exact nature of the details of someone else's struggle, we can assume that they are as human as we are. So may it be so of us that we don't become more nervous about or ashamed of or afraid of depression and anxiety. Instead, may we become more patient, more kind, more forgiving, more long-suffering, less transactional, and more purely thankful. For the raw gift is to no other people at all. May we live at a slower and less utilitarian pace in relationship to other people, and may we celebrate their full humanity, which includes their limitations and struggles and dark corners, the way we are taught in the Christian tradition to celebrate the humanity of Jesus. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

I'm recording this introduction a few days after Thanksgiving. And if you're listening to this when the episode comes out, it'll be roughly a week, maybe a week and a day or so after the Thanksgiving holiday, which is to say this is the holiday season. And between Thanksgiving and maybe some things that happen in between. And the Christmas holiday is a season during which we sit down at a table with neighbors, with friends, with family, with people who share different ideas hold different ideas about how the world works. Usually, what we mean by that is they hold different religious or different political perspectives. And the rule the cultural rule has become you don't talk about politics. You don't talk about religion. At the dinner table, and specifically during the holidays, I see story after story or anecdote after anecdote on most of my social media platforms about nightmare scenarios or nightmare fears, things happening during the holidays, around politics, and religion among family members and neighbors, etc. You don't talk about religion and politics during the holidays.And as much as I understand, and I really do, because I've certainly been in the scenarios in which a political or religious conversation was problematic relationallyjust really disappoints me, and it saddens me. In fact, I find it a little bit boring. And I long for conversations and places for conversation in which politics and religion are not just on the table, but welcomed, invited, where we can have real-life differences about real life, things that really do matter, which is why I was thrilled to sit down and talk with Keith Simon. Key Simon is the co-author of a book called Truth over tribe pledging allegiance to the lamb, not the donkey or the elephant. He is the pastor of a church. He's a thoughtful and caring individual. And he's someone who, like me, is aware of his own biases, is aware of his own history, and is aware of the unfortunate and massive gap between far too many people who don't feel the capacity, the ability, or the willingness to share in some of the ideas that actually drive their lives. I enjoyed our conversation. I think you will too. Check it out. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

In 2002, I wrote and recorded a song called love. And I've been waiting to write some kind of follow-up to that song pretty much since I released it. It was a song that meant a lot to me at the time because I was trying to publicly and personally redefine the word and my experience of the word love for myself. And for people that were interested in paying attention. To me, it was this hopeful attempt, I guess, to push back on the idea, or the constant suggestion that love was a feeling. And that just hadn't been my experience. Certainly, there have been feelings involved, as it were. But love, while it included feelings was just more complex, it was more difficult. It was harder, it was Messier. It was just bigger. And I wanted to write something that actually spoke to maybe the more difficult and messier and poetic slash practical elements and aspects of love. And so I wrote this song that is, as it's recorded, both Sung and screamed, which was part of my experience of love. Here's a clip of that song and how it comes off as it's recorded. Now, among my existing listeners, love as a song had some legs to it folks really resonated with the song. To some degree, I know they resonated with the energy of the song in this sort of like middle space between folk, and rock. But I think actually, no, my listeners really resonated with that particular expression of love. At what point shortly after the album, that that record was on was released, the song was covered by a rock band, like an actual rock band, and I think actually found a bit more of a home sonically, with this band, they were called Kids in the way. And the way they interpreted the song, it was definitely more full-throated, it was definitely more screaming. And there were electric guitars and drums and the whole mind, and it definitely felt more like that's the spirit of the song. But I've got to say that the peak moment of that songs life, and, and the place it found its home in at least in what I meant by it. When I recorded it came when I was asked to sing that song at a friend's wedding. Now, you just heard a clip of the song and how it comes off. Like I said, it's sort of screamed and sung at the same time. So imagine, if you will, sitting at the wedding of a friend of yours, and watching the ceremony proceed as it normally does. And then coming to the moment of communion, where the pastor or the preacher, whoever is facilitating the moment, invites the crowd to take a few moments of reflection, while the couple takes communions. Normally this very low-key, almost contemplative moment in the ceremony. But that was the moment that my friend asked me to step up to the mic and play that song. Now, I've got to be honest. And if you've been around me long enough, you know, I've definitely had some moments when what I was doing up front, musically just didn't go over with the crowd that I was in front of this was something entirely different because it wasn't just a matter of distaste, there was utter confusion among the attendees of this wedding. And then, during the reception, this friend of mine who had asked me to play that song, during his ceremony, got the chance multiple times to answer the question, because people came to him and said, Hey, was that song he was supposed to play? Did Justin just pick a random song and play it instead of something more appropriate to the moment and what he said was that that had been his experience of love. And he wanted there to be a moment in his wedding ceremony. That said, this is what love sounds like and feels like when it's been real. For me, that was a peak moment. And that songs life, it was also a peak moment in my understanding of the practice of the expression of in the experience of love. A few years ago, I was asked to lead songs and teach at a church community that I was actually somewhat unfamiliar with. It's a thing I don't do very much, but on the suggestion of and the request of a friend. I planned a few songs to lead and I planned a teaching around their requested topic, which was the love of God. Now, they had suggested and requested that I turn in my notes and my slides ahead of time because they were unfamiliar with me and they wanted to make sure they knew what I was going. So I turned in my notes well ahead of time, and I turned in the slides for the songs that I was doing, most of which were traditional. And again, if you've been around me at all in the last several years in See me song lead. I prefer to lead older traditional songs. And this one particular song that I had included in my setlist, they really wanted to do a different version of It's a song called Nothing but the blood of Jesus. It's a very traditional older him like song that's relatively familiar with folks who are part of the Christian tradition. What they said, though, was that they wanted to do their version of this song. And again, because this is a traditional song that's been sung, and led for many, many years by many, many people in many different contexts. It's a traditional classic song and wanting to do your version of a classic song is like saying, I'd like to do my version of Nikes. Yeah, that's called a knockoff. Well, when they sent me the lyrics back to the song, their version of this song, they had replaced the word blood with love, so that the song said nothing but the love of Jesus rather than Nothing but the blood of Jesus explaining that they did not like the violent imagery associated with blood. And at first glance, I understood Oh, yes, I get that that's a little bit gross to be singing about blood. But then I actually thought back to this moment, when, during my friend's wedding ceremony, at a point in which we were supposed to have a contemplative moment, during communion, to reflect on the love of God for them, they asked me to sing a song that actually shook the room a little bit about the nature of love. As they stood behind me eating the body, and drinking the blood of Jesus, I sang a song that was a bit toothy-er, a bit messier, a bit more violent. In his epistle, John writes that this is how we know what love is that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. When John goes to redefine what love is, he actually references the violent moment of the cross. And I honest to goodness, think there is something really important about that definition of love. That certainly there are feelings involved, that certainly it can be a thing that feels good and brings light and joy and happiness. But that if love is to truly be love, it has to meet our humanity, in the whole of our humanity in both our high peak glowy fascinating, glittery, big-eyed, sparkly moments. And in the utter, destructive, terrible depths of our existence, our practice, it has to meet us in both our glory. And in our depraved violence, if that's the kind of love we're talking about, I'm in. And if it's not, if it's something more sentimental, that's fine. It just doesn't meet me as a whole human. If the love of God is to truly be the love of God, for all of humanity, must it not, in some way, speak to the violence that is also true about our nature, which is why I love the image of the cross as an expression of love. It's why I love the life of Jesus on the whole, including the cross, as an expression of love. Are there adorable, cute, big-eyed puppy-like moments? Certainly, there are. And there is also the cross in Oakland, California, just by itself. Last year, there were 125 murders. And that's a small chunk of the nearly 17,000 murders that took place across the country. And then earliest statistics from this year suggests that there are at least 16 gang-related violent crimes perpetuated in Oakland every single day. And that's part of what it looks like. To be human and to belong to the human race. So as I see it, if love is to truly be the kind of reality and power the human heart desires, and not only can't turn a blind eye, to our more violent nature, it has to look at that nature, square in the face and say I can handle that has to look at least in part, like the cross.So 20 years after the release of that first song called Love, I finally found some words and a melody to really communicate those thoughts in the song is called that's love. Not the most imaginative title, but it works. And I don't screen this time, but I think the energy is still there. It's still a thing I want to see. It's still a thing I want to be Leave about the love of God that is available to me and then helps me make sense of and make something good out of what it means to be human Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

I’ve long lived with Seth Godin’s suggestion that art is anything you make that forges a connection between people. Over time, and in that light, I’ve also come to recognize that the depth and sustainability of my professional art life has a lot to do with the particular people I am connected to in/through my work. Which brings me to my now 12yo son, Asa. Asa wrote a lot of the melody for the song “Graduation” and is the main vocalist on the finished track. It was the thought of connection with him on this project that really moved me to do it. Of course, there were many points of connection throughout the whole process (and definitely now, after is release). But what provided the project’s core energy was specifically sharing the writing and recording process with my son.So, on a personal level, the life in and behind this EP is rooted in the love I have for that remarkable young man, Asa. And, on a broader scale, I think being able to name/identity specific people is what makes it possible for an Artist (of any kind) to do what they want to do long-term.Ideas and artifacts can be thrilling. They just don’t give real life. Butregardless of how effective or well-received or profitable an idea or artifact might be, that experience simply pales in comparison to the deeply grounding experience of human connection. I risk a bit of overstepping here when I say that we’ve been in a season during which it seems like everything is on fire; that every “issue” and every conversation carries with it the utmost importance. And because of that urgency, not only you should not only know about all of it in detail, you also must see the right details from the correct angle and then (this is key) care about the right things to the correct degree and in the right way. It’s too much. So here’s the somewhat scandalous reality I’m living with now: If what I say I “care about” doesn’t have actual names of actual people attached to it, I’m either faking it or I’m at least a little bit wrong.Because the human heart doesn’t live on the energy of ideas or even the urgency of causes. The human heart runs on relationship and connection. Too much of what we mean by “Church” or “religion” became about ideas and artifacts. Too much of what we mean by “Politics” or “Justice” became about ideas and artifacts. And too much of our experience in all these areas has been very, very disappointing.SoMay my disappointment in myself and in others lead me to hope and work for change rather than to the desire to isolate or distance myself.And may that change mean a smaller and more personal experience of our own lives. For the sake of the very specific people around us and for our own, very specific souls.  Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble