At Sea with Justin McRoberts

A few years ago, I was invited to participate in this event. I don't remember what the event was, as a speaker, I was there to story tell, tell some stories and teach. And when the organizer introduced me, he said singer, songwriter, musician, Justin McRoberts. And I remember like, I wasn't mad, but I remember feeling like misnamed, or, like, I wasn't even offended, but like, it just didn't feel right. His context for me has had been music like he listened to a lot of my music growing up, and, and that's how he came to the knowledge of Me. And so even though I was there, to do something other than music, I didn't even have my guitar. He recognized me contextually, as a singer-songwriter. I wanted him to call me an author. I was like after my second book was published, I was like, I wanted him to call me an author, speaker. But he saw me differently. I think that discomfort is at least part of what happens at times in relationship to tools, like the INIA Graham, that there is a fear there's a discomfort, there's even like a distaste at times in relinquishing control over to someone else, or something else that might have a different context for us might see us differently, or might help us or guide us to see ourselves differently. Fewer years ago, when my daughter who's four, now almost five, was too she grew relatively obsessed with my phone. It's a phase, I'm told, it'll go away when she's a teenager. And when she wanted the phone, she didn't want to phone because she wanted to call anybody or she didn't even want to do music or game, she wanted to go to pictures. And she wanted to look for pictures of herself. And so she would say see Kaitlyn, and I would hand her phone, her phone ahead of the phone. And she would, she would open up to the Photos app, and then flip through really quickly. And then when she saw a picture of herself, that was just her, and there were plenty of them, she would stop and look at herself. But on the way to those pictures that were very clearly of her pictures she recognized herself in she would skip over lots and lots and lots of pictures that she was in with other people that she was contextualized in these other pictures. And because she was in a different context around other people, she didn't see herself, you can see where I'm going with this. And so I would try to take the phone back from her. And I don't know if you've had the experience of trying to take a phone or your phone away from like a toddler. It's not easy. But in order for her to learn to see herself in context, she had to relinquish control so that I could point her out in those pictures. It can be really unsafe sometimes to relinquish control over to unwise unloving, irresponsible parties that will name us things that we don't want to be named that we might not even be because they're doing it for their own benefit, they would like us to be something else, something other than we are in order that we might be more usable. And I totally understand that fear. And yet, if I want to learn to see myself completely in the world and the life in which I get to live, I have to learn to see myself in context. And I've actually come to the conclusion that I don't actually have the capacity in my own life, because I'm just too close to my own life. To see my whole life in context. It requires relinquishing control over to people around me, who might have useful tools like the INIA Graham, the Myers Briggs, etc. Yeah, it is a risk. Learning to see myself as a risk. Learning to see myself in context is an even bigger risk. But it is the risk of relationship. And perhaps the fullest way, the most complete way to see myself in the world is to see myself in context, in the context of people who are not like me, in the context of people who might not like me. Tools like the INIA Graham and the use of them are tricky, but I think they're worth the work to learn to do well because seeing ourselves clearly and well in the world is a way to see ourselves as Beloved. More than just useful. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Whether you are a kid or you have kids, or you like kids, or you were a kid, or whatever, I think you're gonna like this project and the songs on it and you can pick it up from us directly at www.thedudeandthebird.bandcamp.com or beginning February 22, you can listen to it and all your favorite streaming services. Check it out. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Oh, the enneagram. It is, like many tools, so often misused or misapplied. It feels to me that a lot of folks are stuck between some form of infatuation with the tools or their type and some form of annoying disdain with the whole thing.I’m not a fan of the enneagram. Not the way people are fans of the Boston Red Sox or Manchester United. I like what I see happen in the lives of people who Jim Gum is a certified teacher of the Narrative Enneagram. There are many approaches to the study and application of the tool and, having worked with Jim in a few settings, I really appreciate his take. Specifically, Jim introduced me to the idea that knowing myself by way of the enneagram is ultimately about knowing my type; it’s about transcending my type and knowing myself as a whole. We cover a lot of ground in this conversation. I think you’ll dig it. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Sometimes what looks like compromise is not compromise at all. Sometimes it’s the hard choice to be a constant and a light in a shady and unstable environment. And sometimes it means being the one willing to be humbled and be wrong and change and grow in a stuck and calcified culture. I remember, after a few years working within a religious institution and experiencing the disillusionment that often associated the end of an institutional season, I started to believe that the most courageous and just thing to do when corruption or institutional failure reared its ugly head, was to leave; to walk away from relationships and organizations and systems I felt were broken or wrong. And sometimes that’s true; sometimes saying “I can’t be here if things are going to be this way,” is the best and right and most fruitful move. But sometimes it’s not.I was deeply moved by artist Propaganda’s recent reflection about sitting at the table with institutional power and remaining in relationship to an organization rife with leadership issues and flaws and even injustices of its own. His reflection is called “I Did A Difficult Thing Yesterday” and you can read it on his website right now. There’s a lot to chew on in the piece but the thing that stood out to me was the complexity of his perspective given the complexity of the situation (that rather than simple emotions and an oversimplifying of the circumstances). The institutionalization of vision and mission is, I would suggest, inevitable. In order to find ways to sustain our patterns of care and justice, we create culture and set guidelines, organize efforts, and, over time, those all get wrapped up and we name it. Then things can get … tricky. In fact, they almost always do and when that happens, just as when a movement starts, people have different roles. Some will need to leave so that their critique and perspective are heard from the outside of the culture or institution. And some will need to stay because (in part) their most powerful position is still within the org and (in part) that’s where their heart is. And staying can mean feeling an impossible amount of pain and pressure. I remember Andrew Marin writing, in his 2009 book “Love is an Orientation,” that being a bridge means being walked on from both sides. How much more problematic it is to be a connection point between many opinions, agendas, and needs that come with institutional life. Yes, sometimes the right thing to do, is to resign one’s position and move on, voicing a loving and righteous response on the way out. And sometimes it’s being the person who stays in the busted up space, feeling the tension of the thousand directional pressures and unanswerable questions while hoping and working for what can seem like the impossible change to come; the person being asked to answer would be or wanna be radicals who want to burn down every impure thing and slow-movers who don’t know the difference between criticism and complaining. Many of my guests have been women and men who have been in and integral to their chosen cultures for years and even decades. For many of them, the hardest part of their vocational life has been the choice and effort to simply stay through “thick and thin” as it were. It doesn’t come with the electricity of the radical’s role or the badge of honor often awarded to the stalwart defender of a culture’s reputation.  Hopefully, it comes with a quieter assurance that they’re not just doing the right thing in the right place at the right time but they are the right person for that place.   Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Just as there are artists who work at the edges of a culture, pushing boundaries and breaking rules that need breaking, there are also artists doing essential work closer to the heart or center of a their chosen culture. For two decades, Mike Donehey has taken the sacred trust of folks at the heart of his culture and led, lovingly and faithfully. Mike and I click well, so my conversation with him started even before the recording did. You’ll pick it up in the middle of us talking about managing a diverse set of projects. Check it out.  Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Because I came into the practice of faith through a distinctly protestant doorway, I didn’t know, early on, what to make of the Catholic of veneration or even emphasis on Mary, the mother of Jesus. The way I’d heard the story told, Mary was almost a bystander to her own pregnancy; a tertiary figure watching the Spirit of God and a few angels conspire to bring Good News to the planet. Of course, like so many others, the older I’ve gotten and the more I’ve actually wrestled with God as a part of my faith experience, the more I’ve needed models and examples for what faith and faith practice look and feel like in raw human form. Mary’s “Yes” is a model and a guide to me. What would have happened  if, when I was presented with my ownreligious breakthrough moment,I said something more like Mary said.Because she didn’t leap directly into the story with enthusiasm and a smile.She paused, like Mary Magdalene at the threshold of Jesus’ tomb years later.What if I were to have said, “I don’t want this” or “I don’t think I’m capable.”And maybe that’s how faith works?Or maybe that’s faith, too? to pause and worry and question and even doubt.Maybe it’s like Jesus asking people to extend their hands or take up their mats or wash off their faces in a certain body of water. Maybe the acceptance of the gift actualizes the gift moment. Maybe receiving the gift in whatever posture it is received(because very few of those people “believed” in God the way the religiously minded mean today) means the gift becomes fully a gift.  Or Maybe I’m wrong. I don't know. What I do know is that Mary said “Yes,” that it cost her to do soand that I’m thankful she did.I’m also thankful she said “yes” after asking “How will that work?”I’m thankful faith can look like saying “That makes no sense to mebut I’m willing to try.”Because that’s what faith looks like for memost of the time; it looks like ”Ummm… sure… yes…?”and then sometimes long seasons of waiting to seewhat I said “yes” to come to life.  In Mary’s case, it was 30 years before the thing, she said “yes” to came to fruition in any way like the way it was promised.I said “yes” to this whole faith journey thing about 30 years ago years now and I’m still saying “How does this work?”I’m still saying “that makes no sense to me”and I’m still saying “I’m willing to try…May it be with me as you say.”I am still thankful, perhaps now more than ever, that, every Advent / Christmas season, I get to pause briefly and remember that the Story hinges at one point on the faith and courage of a young woman whose “Yes” sounds far less like the triumphant, big-chested declarations of heroes and mythical figures, and far more like mine.  Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

In recent years, I have noticed a kind of uptick in conversations and the pace of conversations and the intensity of conversations about mental health come the holidays. Some of that has to do with maybe the shorter days, some of that has to do with being around people who might be triggering, or just some difficult family dynamics, the pressure of spending a whole lot of money or not spending money. It's a kind of intense time and so it seemed an appropriate time to release this conversation with Andi colder. Andi is a licensed therapist, she is also an author, and she works at that wonderful dynamic intersection of mental health, spiritual practice, religion, and science. The place where we all live. I had a delightful conversation with her turns out we have a little bit of personal history. I've benefited from her work, and I've mostly benefited in recent years from paying attention to the way she talks about engages in, and guides other people through conversations about that really turbulent intersection. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. Check it out. Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

Near the heart of the Christmas / Advent Story is the expectation that God is going to offer a gift. The head-fake in this Bible story is that, when those waiting come upon and/or are given that gift, it’s just a baby. And I know folks have surrounded Jesus’ birth with all kinds of magic imagery, sparkles, and theme music since then. But for people who had been waiting for some kind of momentous, earth-shattering socio-cultural and political sign of change, that had to be at least somewhat confusing and disappointing. If this was the gift, it meant having to wait. again. In fact, according to the timeline in those same scriptures, the next time there is anything of significance to be made of the life of Jesus, it’s 30 years later. And then, after 3 years of work with a small community, Jesus is arrested and those following him have to wait. again. And then he is murdered by the State (at the behest of religious power) and those following him have to wait. again. Here’s the thing; I don’t think that process ever ends. I don’t think the waiting ever ends. And I’ve begun to think that’s the case because the primary fruit of waiting is my formation and becoming; not getting what I’m wanting.In fact, I think that waiting, as a practice in and of itself, changes me so that I want differently (and better). Sometimes, even if the thing I’ve waited for is exactly what I expected it to be, by the time I come upon it or possess it, I’ve changed.Over time, my hopes and desires have changed. I try not to expect particular results or gifts or moments. Instead, I hope that my will is refined and changed. That, through my waiting, I can want differently and want more and want better.I want differently. I want more. I want better.And I think that might be the point. The spiritual process/journey isn’t about grasping God or attaining personal greatness or holiness the way I’d grasp/attain an item at a Walmart; it’s about becoming. The tension and disappointment and patience necessary for waiting shapes me into someone who wants differently wants more and wants better; so that, in the pursuit of better things, I grow. again. That process is often measured by social, creative, or political works. Which can be very helpful but also very discouraging or even disorienting. The American Civil Rights movement, for the most part, took place in the 1960s. This means folks have been waiting for six full decades to see some of the truths spoken and celebrated then come to fruition - and many have yet to do so. Part of what that waiting does is, yes, help form those waiting into the kinds of people who can build and maintain a more just society. It also exposes that many among us are simply not ready. And that realization can be very sad. During one of the speeches that defined that civil rights era, Dr. Promised that “We shall overcome because the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice.” Many years later, writer and journalist Summer Brennan tweeted “The moral arc of the universe will only bend (toward justice) if enough people grab hold of it and pull as hard as they can.“ I think both things are true. This means, that along with continuing to do the kind of work Dominique Dubois Gillard is doing, we also keep waiting.  Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

During the first season of the podcast, I got to talk with Dominique Dubois Gillard about his book “Rethinking Incarceration.” One of the things we talked about was the difficulty and opportunity to steer the ship, even slightly, in institutional spaces already (and often blindly) dominated by whiteness and privilege. His most recent book dives directly into that very conversation. Subversive Witness coaches and encourages readers towards a leveraging of one’s privilege rather than simply being another critique of the problems that come with having it. I loved the book and, as always, loved talking with Dominique. Check it out Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble

This will take on a bit of a confessional tone. A few years ago, Dr. Christena Cleveland talked on my podcast about the need for black leaders to steer away from trying to influence white spaces so often. The effort, she clarified, to change white minds about whiteness, should be executed by white hands. Not because of a hatred or distain among black leaders for the people in white-centered cultures, but as a matter of workload, exhaustion and, in a sense, effectiveness. The translation and code switching needed in order to establish not just trust but a baseline of knowledge just wasn’t worth it for a lot of black leaders, who could be spending their time organizing and inspiring in black spaces where agreements about life experience are already made. For example, more often than not, a room of non-white persons doesn’t need convincing that the black experience of the legal system is profoundly different than it is for white persons. As she is so keen at doing, Dr. Cleveland delivered that truth with a fair mix between “stay in your lane” and “know your power.” And that’s a very important distinction for me to make. Absolutely, I have needed to learn how to stay in my lane. I have a tendency to overreach because I want to do so much. That can lead to not just taking on more than I can handle well but even taking on roles FAR better filled by other people with different training, history and socio-cultural positioning. Meanwhile, i’m functionally stealing energy from efforts I can be making in roles more my cup of tea; places I can have a more lasting and deeper impact. I don’t think I can be a leader among people of color in religious spaces.But I can witness their courage and work and can translate those efforts and victories for folks more like me. I don’t think will be a leader among those building faith communities in the next season of Western religious life. But I can coach and champion and motivate and help those who are. That old author’s dilemma of knowing your audience translates into a lot of life, including areas of leadership. And just as it can be true of authors, so it is for leaders, that learning where and with whom your work really lands can be as surprising as it is freeing. For both my recent guests, Alan Smyth and David Zach, their entrance into the fight against human slavery has meant learning which parts of that enormous, messy and interconnected world they are most effective in. For both, they’ve recognized that moving the hearts and minds of folks more like themselves is an area of power for them. Alan, a long-time leader of men, wrote a book on the connection between manhood and the vulnerability of children. A long time musician, David Zach career behind the mic of a band making music for the religiously inclined has meant taking stories from some very dark corners of the world into places that would never otherwise hear them. There are victories I thought I’d have at this point in my life and goals I thought I’d have achieved that I simply had to let go of because they don’t fall within the wise and loving parameters of my limited life. Meanwhile, within those limits, there are depths of connection and difference I didn’t know were available to me until I traded in breadth of influence for that depth. It’s a trade I’m happy to have made.   Links For Justin:Read Justin's SubstackOrder In The Low - NEW Book with Scott EricksonCoaching with JustinOrder In Rest - New Book of PoemsOrder Sacred StridesJustinMcRoberts.comSupport this podcastNEW Single - Let GoNEW Music - Sliver of HopeNEW Music - The Dood and The BirdThe Book - It Is What You Make itHearts and Minds Amazon Barnes and Noble