Queer Theology

Fr. Shannon shares a sermon exploring the story of Doubting Thomas from the Gospel of John for this episode. He delves into themes of fear, doubt, and faith, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging doubt as a natural part of faith, particularly in the face of suffering and uncertainty. May we be a little more like Thomas in the sense that it feels like he was being reasonable. And may we embrace our doubts and continue to show up for our communities, promoting peace and justice despite challenges.   Takeaways Doubt is a natural part of faith. Thomas’s demand for proof is reasonable. Historical context is crucial for understanding scripture. Fear can lead to isolation and doubt. Jesus offers peace in times of fear. Community support is vital during struggles. Faith can coexist with questions and uncertainty. Showing up for others is an act of faith. We are loved despite our doubts. Our actions for justice matter, even when we doubt.   Chapters (03:46) Exploring Fear and Doubt   (06:32) Historical Context of the Gospel of John   (09:46) Thomas’s Reasonable Doubt   (12:36) Faith Amidst Suffering and Questions   (15:25) Benediction and Reflection on Doubt   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna do something a little bit different, and I’m gonna offer a sermon based on John 20 verses 19 through 31. You’ll recognize this. This is the passage famously known as the Doubting Thomas passage, and this is a new take on it. (50s): So let’s start by reading John 20. It was still the first day of the week. That evening while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, peace be with you. After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them, again, peace be with you as the Father sent me so I am sending you. Then he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven. Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the 12, wasn’t with the disciples. When Jesus came, the other disciples told him, we’ve seen the Lord, but he replied, unless I see the nail marks in his hands, but my finger in the wounds left by the nails and put my hand into his side. (1m 38s): I won’t believe after eight days, his disciples were again in the house and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe Thomas responded to Jesus, my Lord and my God. Jesus replied, do you believe because you see me happier? Those who don’t see and yet believe, then Jesus did. Many other miraculous signs in his disciples presence, signs that aren’t recorded in the scroll, but these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ God’s son, and that believing you will have life in his name. (2m 23s): I was kind of a nervous kid. Maybe it was growing up with a steady diet of people talking about the imminent return of Jesus or the threat of hell, or the ridiculousness of eighties satanic panic or growing up in a rural area where there were strange sounds at night and the darkness felt impenetrable, And I was a sensitive child attuned to the moods of everyone around me, which meant I was often afraid And I tried to overpower that fear with faith. If I could just do all of the right things, I would be okay. If I could just believe harder, believe all the right things, I’d be filled with favor. I remember distinctly hearing today’s story from the gospel of John growing up, every sermon focusing on Thomas’s doubt and saying how wrong he was. (3m 10s): Every sermon too, focusing on the line you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe, and the pastor would encourage us all that the writer was talking about us. We were the ones who hadn’t seen and yet believed, and so we better keep believing or else, okay. They didn’t say it quite like that, but that’s how it sounded to a nervous kid sitting in a pews. So what do we do with this story? What do we do with doubt and faith and poor old Thomas? Now, some of you might be looking around a sanctuary that you’re sitting in, which was really full on Easter and is well less full this week and patting yourself on the back because you showed up on the weeks after Easter. (3m 55s): You are obviously full of faith, but maybe even as you sit there in the pew or listen to this podcast, you are feeling these secret doubts nagging at you, wondering why things are so hard, wondering why you’re suffering the way you are. Wondering why it feels like there is silence from God. You look around at the world and you see the violence. You see the inequality, you see the suffering, and you wonder what good faith is and where is God in the midst of all of this struggling. But then you feel guilty for feeling those things, chastising yourself for your lack of faith, feeling like if you just believed harder or did more or prayed with more fervor, then God would show up for you. (4m 41s): You feel caught between your desire for faith and your very real doubt, and you worry that the Bible condemns you at every turn. So let’s look at the story from John 20. It can be easy sometimes when we know a story really well to gloss over the details. Yeah, yeah. We know this. We’ve heard this a million times before, but as we enter into a text that might be well known, let’s try to see it anew. The Easter story ends on a triumphant note. Jesus is risen, risen, hallelujah. But today’s story starts back in a place of fear. Jesus’. Friends and followers are huddled together, hiding in a locked room. (5m 22s): They haven’t yet received the good news of the resurrection in their minds, in their bodies and souls. They are in a place of despair and fear. Their friend, their leader has been killed and they’re afraid there. Next, it’s important for us to start there to sit with them for a moment in that place of fear. And just a note on some historical context before we go further, the gospel of John was the last of the gospels to be written about 20 to 30 years later than the other gospels. It’s drawing not only on a large body of oral history and testimony, but also on a theological base that was still evolving and changing. It was also written in a community that was separating further and further from the Jewish communities. (6m 7s): It had started out belonging to as these divides deepened and conflict grew, we see more and more blame cast on Jewish authorities in John whereas other earlier gospels more rightly blamed Rome. We have to center our understanding of this anti-Jewish sentiment in its context. These stories were written by folks and two folks still who still considered themselves Jewish, but who had probably been expelled from their Jewish communities. After the destruction of the temple by Rome, these Jewish people who were now devoted to Jesus were angry at what they felt was an unfair expulsion from their home communities. So they lashed out at the religious leaders. So on the one hand, this is an intercommunal argument written by a group that considered themselves still part of the Jewish faith. (6m 53s): On the other hand, at the time this was, this text was written, both of these communities, the Jewish communities and this new community of Jewish Jesus followers were both marginalized communities under the occupation of Rome. So we have to be really careful when we read and speak about these texts today in our context, which is very different, and where especially in the United States, the Christian Church is dominant and Jewish communities are still marginalized and oppressed. We also come to these texts with centuries of antisemitism, often done in the name of Christianity, and using these very texts as justification of that bias. The writer of the gospel of John is writing to a very specific community with very specific concerns, and sometimes those concerns get heard differently. (7m 41s): The further we get from their context, the further we get from their context. So we have to tread with care. So this specific community existing a generation after Jesus’ death and resurrection, trying to keep the faith as they are isolated and alienated from the communities they once called home are also afraid. They would’ve identified with those terrified disciples locked into that room wondering where it had all gone so wrong. And let’s note too that while the women were going to the garden to bear witness and to attend to Jesus’ body, these men were hiding away. The men were giving into their fear. They’re hiding away. (8m 21s): They’re in a locked room, and it’s in this place, in these circumstances that Jesus appears to them and his first words are peace be with you. These are people who needed to be offered peace. Jesus offers them peace and then reinstates their mission. As God has sent me, now I am sending you, he gives them the Holy Spirit by breathing on them. It’s as if he’s saying, get out of this room, get back to work. The mission isn’t over. Jesus is telling his friends that they are to carry on What he started. Started. Then we’re told that Thomas wasn’t with them when Jesus appeared, we don’t know why. (9m 1s): We don’t know where he was, but he comes back and the disciples tell him what he’s missed, and Thomas basically says, unless I see him for myself, I’m not going to believe I need to see that Jesus is alive. I need to see that he’s the same person by seeing the wounds in his hand and side, I need to see Thomas gets a lot of flack for this. Here we are over 2000 years later and we’re still calling the guy doubting Thomas, and it’s easy to focus on Thomas’s disbelief, his desire to see it for himself, his demand for physical proof. It’s easy too, because of how we’ve often been taught the story to blame Thomas to say he’s being unreasonable to say he should have trusted his friends in their story to say he should have trusted God. (9m 49s): It’s easy to blame Thomas for his doubt and say, we would’ve been different. But as I’m reading this text, again, there’s a part of me that wonders if Thomas is the only one who’s being reasonable. Thomas wasn’t willing to just believe because he’d been told to. Thomas wasn’t willing to get swept up in popular opinion. Thomas was looking around and saying, I need to actually see. I need some proof. And it makes me wonder too, where Thomas was while the others were hiding. It makes me wonder if he was out there trying to keep things going, if he was checking on other people, if he was continuing to spread the message. (10m 31s): It makes me wonder if while people were hiding, he was working, he was being brave. We don’t know of course, but I wonder, And I wonder if the writer of the story felt guilty and wanted to take Thomas down a notch or two, it wouldn’t be the first time. We’ve seen a dig like that in the Bible and even in the gospels as rival communities tried to tell the story that made their founders look the best. What if we consider Thomas as behaving reasonably? How does that change how we read the story? So now it’s eight days later, the disciples are again in a place with locked doors, pay attention to that Jesus has appeared to them, given them a mission, given them the Holy Spirit, and they’re still hiding. (11m 17s): They’re still behind locked doors, and we’re gonna say, Thomas is the one dropping the ball. Thomas is the one who’s doubting. These other guys have seen Jesus. They’ve heard him give the continued missing mission and they’re still hiding. So now Jesus enters again. He again offers peace, and he offers Thomas the proof he asked for, and here’s what I find striking Thomas said before, unless I put my finger in the wounds, I won’t believe Jesus says, here you go, touch away. And Thomas doesn’t. He simply says, my Lord and my God. Now, this too is important because calling someone Lord in the time of Rome meant something. (12m 2s): It was a treasonous slogan If you were calling Jesus Lord, it was because you were saying Caesar wasn’t. So, Thomas not only immediately believes, but also offers a statement of belief that is stronger than anyone else. I also find it striking that Jesus was willing to give Thomas what he needed in order to believe He didn’t tell him. He shouldn’t have asked Jesus’s statement, do you believe because you see me happier? Those who don’t see and yet believe, while some people read it as sarcastic, it could just as easily be a statement of fact or a later addition to provide comfort to a community, a generation after Jesus’s time on earth, people who definitely hadn’t seen, and yet were still believing sometimes in our rush to move past hard feelings. (12m 49s): We intentionally or not shame people for being reasonable. I don’t know about you, but sometimes when I look around at the world, it’s easy to feel despair. It’s easy to feel hopeless. It’s easy to feel doubt when we see wars and threats of wars, when we see children getting sick and dying, when we experience the death of people close to us, when we see attacks on the vulnerable, when we see people filled with hatred, it’s easy to look around and ask, where is God? Where is God in all of this? Where is the hope? Where is the promise? In fact, to look squarely at the pain of the world and simply shrug our shoulders is the antithesis of being reasonable. (13m 31s): And yet, that’s what so many want to ask us to do. Just keep going. Keep your chin up. Keep the faith. God is in control. What if the reasonable thing to do, the faithful thing to do is to ask for some proof or at the very least, to acknowledge the pain and the suffering? Thomas waited for eight more days to see Jesus eight more days without the proof. But you know what? He stayed. He didn’t leave. He didn’t run off. He didn’t abandon them. He stayed in the midst of not knowing. In the midst of waiting for proof, in the midst of the questions, in the agony, he stayed. And that to me feels like the most faithful act of all to stay when it’s hard to show up when you don’t know how it’s going to turn out to keep doing the work, even when it doesn’t seem to be making any difference, to love to do justice, to promote peace, even in the face of all that’s hard, and sometimes it’s going to seem unreasonable, and sometimes we’re going to want to ask for proof or encouragement or a sign, and that’s okay. (14m 38s): So no matter what you’re feeling today, no matter what doubts you carry, no matter what despair you feel, no matter what situations, feel hopeless, show up like Thomas, filled with doubt, filled with questions, and willing to be there with your community. Anyway, we are not condemned by our doubt or shamed for our questions. We are loved in the midst of them, and still we show up still. We follow in the way of justice still. We follow in the way of the justice of Jesus. Still, we are given peace and we offer that peace to others still. We believe that nothing we do for the benefit of others, no matter how hopeless or unreasonable it seems, goes unnoticed or undone, it all matters. (15m 25s): So let us show up in all of our messiness with all of our questions, with all of our frailty. Let us show up and do good as best we know how. Amen. I offer today as a benediction, a prayer for our wounds from the Reverend Mike abuse. Thomas gets a bad rap, holed up in that room, hiding from harm. Everyone knows you shouldn’t believe everything you hear. So why do we dismiss his doubt? Trust but verify worthwhile rumors. Don’t mind being investigated. Justifiable. Faith doesn’t mind being substantiated. Not everything deserves your, not everyone deserves your vulnerability, but you still deserve to be touched no matter the depth of your skepticism or the depth of your pain. (16m 17s): Don’t preach, reach out and in the story isn’t over for worse and better. Let it stretch you like the scar you are. Perhaps we don’t need a solid savior, but rather a salve that simply tells the truth about the trauma and leaves room for us to hear the healing happening in the heartbreak. Amen. May you go in the peace of God, the love of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (16m 59s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Maybe Doubting Thomas Was The Only Reasonable One appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re honored to have religious scholar, preacher, teacher, and activist, Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney on the pod this week. Rev. Dr. Gafney is a biblical scholar whose work focuses on translation of the scriptures for congregations and lay readers, womanist and feminist biblical interpretation and women who prophesied in ancient Israel and the ancient Afro-Asiatic world and their reception in rabbinic literature. She is the author and translator and wrote “Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to Women of the Torah and of the Throne” and its sequel, “Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to Women of Joshua Judges, Samuel and Kings.” She co-edited “The Peoples’ Bible” and “The Peoples’ Companion to the Bible.” Dr. Gafney is an Episcopal priest canonically resident in the Diocese of Pennsylvania and licensed in the Diocese of Texas and a former Army chaplain and congregational pastor in the AME Zion Church. Her lectures and sermons are widely sought after in academic and Jewish and Christian congregational spaces in the US and in the UK. In this conversation, Dr. Gaffney discusses the Womanist Midrash project, exploring the intersection of womanism and biblical interpretation. She emphasizes the importance of context in understanding scripture, the role of translation, and the significance of centering marginalized voices in religious narratives. Dr. Gaffney also introduces the Women’s Lectionary project, which aims to highlight women’s stories in the biblical text, and addresses the challenges of biblical illiteracy in contemporary faith communities.   Takeaways Midrash fills the spaces between the letters and gaps in the story. Womanism is invested in the wellbeing of the entire community. Biblical interpretation is not just about facts but about the stories that shape identity. Translation is inherently interpretative and should be approached with awareness. The Queen of Sheba’s story reveals the richness of shared religious traditions. Understanding context is crucial for interpreting biblical texts. The Women’s Lectionary project aims to center women’s voices in scripture. Marginalized voices enrich the understanding of biblical narratives. Biblical illiteracy can be addressed through guided reading programs. Engaging with scripture can be both devotional and academic.   Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Womanist Midrash (03:03) The Intersection of Womanism and Midrash (06:04) The Role of Translation in Biblical Interpretation (09:06) Exploring Biblical Stories: The Queen of Sheba (11:54) Understanding Context in Biblical Narratives (14:56) The Women’s Lectionary Project (17:56) The Impact of Centering Marginalized Voices (20:59) Navigating Biblical Illiteracy (23:56) Conclusion and Resources   Resources: Learn more about Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney at https://www.wilgafney.com/ Womanist Midrash Volume 2 by Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Okay. Full fanboy disclosure alert. Shannon And I have been wanting to get today’s guest on the podcast for many, many years, and today is finally the day. I’m so excited to share this conversation with you with Dr. Will Gaffney. We had a really powerful conversation about sacred stories and sacred communities and the intersections between those two. (56s): How to see ourselves in those stories and in the traditions, and to really look at the importance of going, looking for people that have always been there, but that perhaps the dominant powers straight, cis, white, male, European, have tried to silence or play down, or I ignore. They’re so, so, so, so, so many insights from this conversation. I think you’ll hear me say summary here, that we could keep on going for a, you know, a few more hours. There’s just so much to dig into. So after the episode, pop on over to our Instagram and leave a comment on this post for what was your most meaningful insight from today’s conversation, because I know there are just so many. (1m 36s): It is a jam packed conversation. Today we’re joined by the Reverend Dr. Will Gaffney, who is a biblical scholar whose work focuses on translation of the scriptures for congregations and lay readers, womanist and feminist biblical interpretation, and women who prophesied in ancient Israel and the ancient Afro Asiatic world and their reception in rabbinic literature. She’s the right Reverend Sam b Halsey, professor of Hebrew Bible at the Bright Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. She’s the author of a Woman’s Lectionary for the whole church years A, B, and C, and a novel year W, which is a standalone volume and translator of its biblical selections. (2m 17s): She’s also the author of a Womanist Midrash, A Reintroduction to Women of the Torah and of the Throne, and its sequel Womanist Midrash, A Reintroduction to Women of Joshua Judges, Samuel and Kings. She co-edited the People’s Bible and the People’s Companion to the Bible. Dr. Gafney is an Episcopal priest, canonically resident in the Diocese of Pennsylvania and licensed in the Diocese of Texas, and a former Army chaplain and congregational pastor in the AME Zion Church, a former member of the Dorsha Dera Reconstructionist Minion of Germantown Jewish Center in Philadelphia. She has co-taught courses with and for constructionist Rabbi Seminary pa. (2m 60s): Her lectures and sermons are widely sought after in academic and Jewish and Christian congregational spaces in the US and in the UK. She’s a public facing religious scholar, preacher, teacher activist, and an amateur watercolorist. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Dr. Gaffney, Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We’re so excited to talk about your work and introduce hopefully more people to it. So thanks for being here. My pleasure. I’d love to start by asking if you can just tell us a little bit about the Womanist Midrash Project. You know, how did that project come about? And maybe for folks in our audience who might not know what Mid Rush is, if you can give a brief description or definition of that. (3m 41s): Alright. Mid is a Jewish classical practice of biblical interpretation that continues into the present and it has delineated rules for rabbinic literature, and in the contemporary context, it has become much more wide open. One way to think about biblical interpretation in this context is to imagine a page of Torah if you’ve seen one or even a page of your own scriptures, and think about the letters and the spaces between them. (4m 24s): Midrash fills the spaces between the letters and gaps in the story, making stories more complete, rich and full. I did study rabbinic literature in my PhD program with Jewish faculty members, And I spent a decade as a member of a synagogue while I was teaching in Philadelphia, and I’m now a member of one here. And I say that to make it clear that this is not an opportunistic, but that I am not appropriating a Jewish practice, but rather in some contemporary modes of thought in Jewish scholarship and Jewish biblical interpretation, sermon writing, that anytime anyone expounds on the Hebrew scripture, they are doing midrash. (5m 24s): So that, that’s a brief overview of the origins and contemporary use of midrash. Womanism is black feminism, a feminism that is richer, deeper, thicker, and more complex, while classic white women’s feminism really centered on breaking through power structures, getting a place at the table, black women’s feminism womanism is much more comprehensive. It is invested in the wellbeing of the entire community and it centers black women’s thoughts and experiences because if a policy is not good for black women than it is not good for anyone, womanism will look at the complex array of identities, often focusing on two or three in a particular project while attentive to the intersectional harm that comes from the way the dominant culture wields its force against those identities. (6m 41s): That, by the way, is the proper definition of intersectional, the harms that accrue as a result of the different identities not having multiple identities. Yeah, yeah. So then, then you embarked on this bringing these two ideas and fears of, of knowledge together in the Womanist Midrash project. And I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about, you know, how that came to be and and what your hope is for that project. Really, they came together in me as a biblical interpreter because of my roots in the black church. (7m 24s): I was very familiar with the preaching practice known as the sanctified imagination. And when I began to study biblical interpretation as a scholar, I intuited that the sanctified imagination was an indigenous form of mid rash, if you will, that it was the way black folk interpreted scripture, particularly black preachers who were brought up in the black church, and they had a lot of similarities in their storytelling aspect. So it was natural for me to fuse my academic work with my religious life. (8m 8s): That’s a very common practice among black folk in the religious academy. We are more often than not, practitioners of a faith tradition, and even those who are now outside of a faith tradition tend to remain on good terms with it, and it informs their own work. So the way that I attend to biblical translation, which became something that I found that I loved and would become a hallmark of my own scholarship, focused on getting everybody on the page in the story with my first book, women Prophets, daughters of Miriam Women Prophets in Ancient Israel. (8m 56s): Because when we say the word prophets or the corresponding Hebrew word ne, it’s a collective. And so many of the biblical expressions have been translated in virtually 1960s English as mankind. Some old Bibles, you’ll see the Sons of Israel. Well, they didn’t leave the daughters behind. So I began translating in a way that made it clear. So for those expressions that were called masculine, plural, I, I renamed them as common plural because they were grammatically, the rules of grammar are you have to have at least two people, and only one of them has to be male. (9m 42s): But just as an English grammar, I could say to a bunch of women, you guys, let’s go biblical Hebrew does that, and Naomi uses masculine form for Ruth and Opa when there are no males among them. So I would translate something like the Children of Israel, which you would see in a lot of Bibles or the Israelites, but I found those to be unsatisfying, And I started writing The Women, children and men of Israel. So then I would need to explain in my writing why my translations of the scriptures look different from other people’s. (10m 22s): And that combination of translation and explanation, deep linguistic based exegesis, and then telling a story about the character, those became the key components of Womanist Midrash. Hmm. Yeah, this is a little bit of like a, it may be in the weeds, I’m Jewish, and it, it just like what you’re doing like reminds me of how I think like in Christianity there’s sort of like this focus on sort of like getting the translation like exactly right. And is arguing over translations. And if you read any sidor, there’s like the Hebrew and the English, and they’re like basically the same thing, but like sometimes they’re not exactly the same thing. (11m 5s): Sometimes they’re like wildly different. Like I think that, and, But we all, there’s for millennia we’ve called these translations because there’s a recognition that all translation inherently is interpretation. And so I just like love that what you’re doing, like you were saying, like adds more nuance and color and depth to the, to the text. But part of the baked in antisemitism of the Western Enlightment Biblical Guild is that they were scholars and scientists and not moved by religion, and that they could determine what the precise translation was, unlike the people before them who laid claim to the text. (11m 49s): And so there’s a lot of this, we know what we’re doing with your text and we’re right baked in. And my early academic career was sort of under the umbrella that translation should be without interpretation, which is yeah. You know, impossible and nonsensical. So it was brushing up against that. That’s also easier to understand in Judaism because you are very much aware that the text, and indeed half the liturgy depending on what kind of Jewish community you belong to is in another language. (12m 28s): It’s been a joke, but it’s also true that there are Christians who have not known that the scriptures they read have been translated from other languages. Yeah. You know, people who not only just say that, you know, the King James is, is perfect and itself revealed from heaven, but you know, think that Jesus spoke English and yeah, for that matter was a white person and all this, this kind of thing. So one of the lectures I give now regularly is called the Invisibility of Translation, where I introduce people to translation and how it affects the text that they read. (13m 9s): And it’s always an eye-opening experience and shock and some other things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would, I would love to listen to that lecture. I feel like that would be so good for so many people. Well, it, there’s probably, there’s probably a version of it on will gaffney.com. Okay. I tend to post my things after the event. Great, great. I’m curious, as you were doing this, this Midrash project, what maybe some of your favorite stories were to dive into or the ones that maybe revealed something new that you hadn’t noticed before? (13m 52s): Oh my goodness, so much. In so many, especially now that there are two volumes. So I’ll, I’ll say something about the second volume. I decided to do The Queen of Sheba, and she can only be done properly with, she appears a little bit in the Quran, but it’s the hadit where her, the big part of her story is. But even bigger than that, in the Ethiopian sacred tradition, there’s basically an entire sacred work that tells the story of her encounter with Solomon and their child and all of these things. (14m 39s): So I put all of that together, that Keppra Nagas from Ethiopia, the Haddi from Islam, the Hebrew Bible, and a little bit of New Testament, she’s named a couple of times in the gospels. And so that was a different project because I was working with a whole lot of source material. And some of it is quite humorous. The, there is a tradition in the Haddi that the world’s first depilatory hair removing cream was invented for her because Solomon was dismayed by the amount of hair on her legs, which became visible when someone did something sneaky and had her walk over a surface that was smooth, reflective water, and they saw up her dress a little bit. (15m 35s): So, you know, those kind of things are humorous, but it calls us to recognize that this is a shared religious tradition, and our scriptural version of the story is only one ancient version. And people at the point when all of this literature was extant at the same time, very likely entertained the multiple sources together. The way we entertain multiple gospels that can’t even get their story straight about the resurrection, which is kind of the thing, right? Yeah. How many angels, Mary, Peter, John, who was running, who was there, who she was there clinging onto him by himself, at what point did she leave? (16m 22s): Did Peter run then where did the other angel go? I mean, it’s like a car wreck where you’re trying to get the same story out of the witnesses, but people will tell you with sincerity in their eyes that there are no contradictions in scripture. Yeah. We’re always like, it starts with Genesis one and two. Like they, they have different orders of creation. Like, come on, come on. I remember studying theology in undergraduate and learning about, oh, like the Jesus seminar where they were sort of like trying to just like get at like what was the real Jesus, right. And what was later on. (17m 3s): And I think that feels connected to this sort of like, project of white academia. And I, And I, but I, I know that for many people in our audience, they’re like, well, what actually happened in the Bible? Or which version of the story is correct? And can you just like talk a little bit about like what happened when you held all these different versions of these stories together? Not with the goal of like, well, which, which version was right, but sort of like what happens in the synergy amongst all the different tellings. And, and you, you also kind of hinted that this happens with amongst the gospels also. Like how do you, like, how, what do you make of these different versions of the stories and what sort of bubbles up from there? (17m 44s): Well, there’s a saying that I use in class, A text without a context is a pretext. Ooh. In order to understand the text, you have to understand the context. Just as a person who hadn’t been exposed to the speech or the character would not know what we meant by four score and 20 years ago, right? You’re in part of the American context, either by your education or by living and being raised in it, so you know what to do with those words. But if you are not a part of ancient Afro culture, you’re not a part of ancient Israelite culture and religion, which is not Judaism. (18m 31s): Judaism derives from it. But there are different religions, different cultural practices to some degree, different languages. The differences between modern Hebrew and biblical Hebrew, our legion, a whole present tense was invented for modern Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew doesn’t have one. So in knowing that context, one of the things that you’ll know, and this does apply to the gospels, this applies to antiquity. They were not a fact-based era of, of being, people told the things that were important to them in a narrative to compel and convince you. (19m 22s): They were not interested in what would be a hallmark of the post-enlightenment, just the facts. So you see differences across gospels, between gospels and epistles. Paul just mixed stuff up. My favorite one was what? That Sarah bowed and called Abraham Lord. Well, that’s not in there. He took a story of a verse in Deuteronomy about the commandments. And because this commandment was referred to as this word, he goes, oh, that’s Jesus. (20m 9s): And when it’s clearly clear, it’s very clear that it’s at the end of Moses giving not just the commandments, but retelling all of Israel’s story in a way that doesn’t line up with the previous books of the Torah, by the way. Yep. And Moses is saying, keep all of this, this whole thing, this word, this word of God, that whole thing is not Jesus. There’s a relationship between them, but not the same. So the way that people who are earnestly and faithfully and sincerely telling the most amazing story and experience they’ve ever heard, and the ancestral stories that are important to pass down to the children is not even intended to be read as factual as we say today. (21m 5s): Certainly not literally. So people make straw houses out of the, the bricks of scripture by trying to read them in ways that they were not intended to be read missing. Thank you. Stephen Colbert, the truthiness, I use that word with my students. What is the truthiness of the Exodus story? If there is no archeological evidence and there isn’t that 2 million people stomp through the desert going that way. The truthiness is that this is a foundational narrative that shapes Israelite identity and subsequently provides a basis for faith, for African slaves in the us and subsequently becomes a paradigm for coming out of the closet for gay folk. (22m 1s): And subsequently becomes, it holds all these truths in it. The archeological piece is irrelevant. Ooh. Yeah. Amen to that. I think there’s also some arrogance to like, to think that we now get outta objective truth, and we don’t do that anymore. Like you turn on Fox News versus CNN versus NBC, right? Like we’re, even today news is propaganda history books are written by the victor. Like it’s just like we’re, we’re, we’re still doing that. We just maybe kind of like dress it up in the guise of objectivity, right? (22m 43s): Sure. But this notion of literal scripture and truth comes down from what we call plantation religion, that it’s important to have an irrefutable source and an irrefutable hierarchy. And so those kind of readings were used Not just to, to invade, invent the American’s slovo, but also to set up these colonizing empires that presaged it. So these were strategic readings that would confer Godlike power on monarchs. (23m 30s): Nevermind they weren’t in the Israelite Judean monarchy family history. But now all of a sudden, all the crown heads of Europe are divinely anointed heads of the church, et cetera, et cetera. Well, except back to the point where you had popes, but you get this divine authority that becomes unquestionable and particularly for the, the Western church and the Western powers gets fused with scripture. There’s a thing in, in British history, well, you know, the national song is O Jerusalem. (24m 13s): There aren’t, they aren’t anywhere near Jerusalem, right? Yeah. And there’s a thing that the European wave of painting biblical characters as Caucasian wasn’t just, every culture gets to see God and the holy people in their image. But there is a period that the faces of the monarchs were used for the faces of the saints and the biblical characters to make a, a claim on divinity themselves. And then that became a very powerful witness to people who were not literate. That’s what stained glass did. (24m 54s): It told us the story of the scriptures that people could see when they couldn’t read themselves. And so there’s this fusing of monarchial identity and biblical authority. This is all just making me think like we talk a lot as part of our project of that storytelling is the way to change people’s hearts and minds that, you know, people can debate facts, but they can’t debate your story. And it also brings in this thing of like, it’s so important that we pay attention to the stories that we’re telling about ourselves as both as individuals and as a people. (25m 35s): Because those stories really impact our ethics and how we live our lives. And you know, we’re seeing that kind of writ large in the United States right now. So, so thank you for, for bringing out this, this piece of stories. I think it’s so, so important. Can, can you tell us, you also have this, this women’s lectionary project, which is both the, the cycle of lectionary texts, but then also a, a standalone year. And we started this podcast to do a queer reading of the Lectionary every Sunday. And we did that for a couple times through, and then decided we were gonna take a break from the lectionary for a while. (26m 15s): Yeah. But I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about why that project and maybe what you felt was missing in kind of the quote unquote traditional lectionary that, that you wanted to create something different for folks Women. That’s the answer. Yeah. Well, you, you can restart with the lectionary because after we finish this year, your A will be up and you can start with a women’s lectionary. Yeah, yeah. I was preparing to preach, I don’t know what the RCL texts were, but they were wholly inadequate. (27m 5s): And I went on Facebook and Twitter and whined about them And I tweeted something like, what would it look like if someone built electionary around women’s stories? I have the exact wording somewhere. I have the tweet archived as an image. ’cause God knows what’s gonna happen with that site. Yeah. And everybody got in my mentions and responses, you do it, Dr. Gaffney, you do it. I was writing a grant for an extended sabbatical, and it was not going well because I found myself writing what I think they might want to hear to just give me the money so I can get this sabbatical, which is, you know, not a passion project that’s a failing and flailing desperation project. (28m 3s): So I just started scribbling it out and then I couldn’t stop writing. And that, and the timing was perfect, that that happened in 17. They did their considerations and made the awards in 18, And I had 2019 the entire 12 months to do the consultations, travel, get away to write, do all of that before I was locked in my house for three years. Yeah, yeah. The blessing is I didn’t lose that sabbatical year to covid. I had it. So that was 2019. (28m 43s): And in 2021 I published both the standalone and year a ’cause that’s all I was doing, you know, teaching class online of course. And then this is, so it was, and then B in the summer of 23 and see in the summer of 24. And what the lectionary does is it raises the whole thing to the ground as much as possible. I am an Episcopal priest And I wanted it to be particularly useful for those with the similar structure. So I didn’t wanna do a New Testament, an Old Testament, because that would limit it to who could use it. (29m 28s): So I had to have a first reading from the Hebrew Bible, a psalm or Canticle and epistle. Oh, I’m talking with my fingers And I can’t see them. This was, this was my trial during Covid because I talk with my hands And I learned to talk with my hands all the way up here. Yeah, yeah. All the way up here. Okay, three, Three, top up my face. So we’re up to the epistle and of course the gospel. And then, because I’m a Hebrew biblical scholar who specializes in translation, translation notes, so the preacher could, or the person reading devotional could immediately see why did that verse look like that? Oh wait, she says it right here. (30m 9s): Okay. You know, and then there are preaching prompts from people who’ve read a whole cycle and said, I never thought about these texts together. I’m still reeling over that translation. I don’t even know where to begin. I got you. The lectionary was characterized by being Hebrew Bible driven as much as possible. The asterisk with that are that we’re reading a for a Christian calendar sequence. And I really try to negotiate and hold a tension of how Hebrew Bible is used by the Christian Church. (30m 52s): And I wanted to demonstrate that it’s not a magic eight ball predicting Jesus. Right. So yeah, for example, I started with advent and instead of saying, what’s a Hebrew Bible text that works for advent, I thought about the story that we tell an advent and the annunciation is a huge part of it. Don’t get me started on why we tell the annunciation in December and not in March takes nine months to make a baby. But the Marian Annunciation in the New Testament is not a new thing. (31m 33s): This is something God did regularly in the Hebrew Bible. And so that notion that let me teach people Bible, let me see if, if I can take a chunk out of biblical illiteracy in the church, especially with the way they use the Hebrew Bible that can be super secessionist and co-opting and all of these things. So the four weeks of Advent had three Hebrew Bible annunciations, and then Mary’s annunciation building that pattern. So I wanted to translate in a way that people could hear everyone on the page. So the crowd surrounded Jesus, the crowd of women, children, and men. (32m 17s): And so then you find out that women are in all of these places. ’cause what’s a crowd? Everybody outdoors. So it has to have all kinds of people. Those translations, Joshua Annihilate, annihilated the Canaanites, women, children, and men reads very differently when you’re just saying, you know, Canaanites parasites hit tides, hitite, you know, all the ites. Then you start to come to account of the layers of genocidal violence in the text. So I picked hard pairings sometimes on Good Friday we read the Death of J’s daughter at the hands of her father, and we read the crucifixion story and we think about what it means to claim the death of a child as a religious necessity. (33m 22s): How horribly that can go wrong, how horribly that’s gone wrong in Christianity. So that’s the, the broad structure one, there are two other unique pieces with it. And that is I decided to use the female pronoun in the Psalms for people who have never heard God presented as themselves or as other than themselves. And because of the way that the title Lord functions as a slave holding title, I look to Jewish tradition, which does not say the divine name, it’s not knowable, it’s not pronounceable, but instead said Lord, not as God’s name, but as the thing you say, because you can’t say God’s name that got lost somewhere. (34m 16s): And that there are other things you can say like Hashem and Ham. Mako. And I developed a whole list of divine titles, some drawn from my experience from the black church, like the arc of safety, others drawn from the work of a Rabbi Rosenberg, things like wellspring of life. I made them explicitly feminine places, womb of creation. So all of those components characterize the lectionary, the women’s lectionary, a women’s lectionary for the whole church. (34m 58s): Yeah. So powerful. We, we had coherent Ro Shapiro on a few months ago and, and they also have a list of names for God. And I took a, an online course with them, and when I was reading through theirs, I was like, oh, just like thinking about all of the different ways to think about God, like womb of creation. Oh my God, that like really hit me. It’s just like so much richer than like, Lord God, you know, even like be universe. Right. Which sometimes in progressive spaces would be like creator. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So it, it’ll be interesting to see if where we’ve come up with some of the same names. (35m 38s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what changes for a congregation, for a people when voices that voices are centered that maybe they’re not used to having centered, you know, we talk a a lot about how queer and trans theology and readings of scripture aren’t just good for queer and trans folks. They’re good for cis and straight folks as well. I’m wondering if you can just reflect on that a little bit. Well, that was one of the basic underlying principles of the lectionary, that there are something like 111 named women in the Hebrew Bible and only 52 weeks a year. (36m 29s): So there was no reason for the RCL to be as male focused as it was. And so the of the texts I was putting together in these different ways were all texts with women, or that addressed women, or as close as I could get them. So they were, these congregations were then hearing the gospel through stories of women, many of whom they never knew existed. They’re hearing the First Testament told through other people. And under the principle that we as women and other folk who were not identified at the time were supposed to have gotten the gospel right by only listening to stories of men. (37m 14s): Well then surely it worked the other way around. And I did that with gender in the lectionary. But it’s also the case that as my theology professor Kelly Brown Douglas said that where you sit in the arena of life either gives you view to what’s happening on the center stage, or your view is obscured by a pillar. And if you think you already know what this text means and what it can mean and what it should mean, then you’re closing off layers of illumination. (37m 56s): I mean, it is part of what we see on television with all of the specials telling this person’s story, whether it’s a crime story or a human interest story, because that person and that producer want the viewing public to learn something, see something, hear something, and people come away from those programs saying, you know, I never knew it was like that. I had no idea this culture was like that. I didn’t know that this religion did that. That same discovery, when you share another person’s story, is true when the story is a biblical interpretation. (38m 39s): I was thinking about this question made me think about why I started going to synagogue in the first place. I had an encounter with seminarians of different religious traditions that was curated for seminarians. And, And I was very taken with the chanting of the Torah, the chanting of Psalms, which is what we heard then. And later I heard the chanting of the Torah, but the discussion in the synagogue that I would become a member of the discussion of the texts, the people were drawing from a whole different set of knowledge and authoritative books and authors and doing some of the best text grappling I had ever heard. (39m 26s): It was a well-educated congregation. It was seminary professors and seminarians, but still lay people well, good chunk of rabbis, but still people had who had not studied these texts academically. And the conversation was so much richer. But I wouldn’t have had that if I believe that Christians, whether my black church upbringing or the dominant white church I find myself in, now that we know what the Hebrew Bible says. Yeah. (40m 6s): I’m, I’m thinking about what you just shared now, and like the past few things, there’s been this like through line, right, of at, at some point you mentioned trying to sort of like weave in a corrective to people’s biblical illiteracy. And the enunciation was like one of many enunciations that happens in, in throughout Hebrew scriptures. And I’m thinking about, we hear both from pastors and also from lay folks, similar themes from pastors. We hear like, well, I can’t like teach the Bible while I’m preaching like that. Ha. Like, it’s just too much work to do all of this biblical education, like from the pulpit, I just have to preach a good message. And maybe they’ll come to Bible study later and then from lay folks will hear like, the, this all sounds like well and good, but like I just wanna like read the Bible and have it feel comforting to me. (40m 50s): I don’t wanna like do all of this homework to read the Bible. And I’m, I guess I’m like wondering, like, do you have any words of wisdom for like either like why that’s important to do this sort of work or how to get started if it feels like daunting or overwhelming? Like how, like how do you begin to peel back your own sort of like biblical illiteracy either in your congregation or within yourself? So I would say use the church fathers as a model. You know, they had a fourfold way of reading scripture. They read scripture differently depending on what they were doing with it. (41m 32s): So reading scripture devotional is fine. And I would encourage people to do that. And I would say what you, what you find or discover for yourself is meaningful read prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit, but understand that that meaning is not then what the text means for other people. What it has meant, what it means when you understand the language and the culture so that there are multiple levels. But I would certainly not say, well, you know, you can’t read the Bible unless you know, know all this context that I’m talking about. (42m 17s): But you need to understand what kind of reading that is that you’re doing. And the same with most Bible studies in church. We’re doing a church-based Bible study in this, and this is gonna be different from the way that you would study the Bible in university or in seminary and make the point that all of those are valid and like a layer cake. They add a lot when you read them together, which is why the church fathers would sometimes do all the readings at the same time. But we’ve lost that bit of our tradition to the people, to the literalists who say, and even the non literalists, the pastors who want the, the religious churchy meaning to be the only meaning. (43m 15s): Yeah. And in terms of you don’t have to have time to teach when you preach. I strongly disagree. Yeah, I think so. Do we? So I I do, I do both. I do both. And I’m not the only one who does both. But pastors are negotiating popularity contests in the pulpit and a whole host of other things you can and the constraints on their time and that that’s real. So pastors don’t always have time to do the kind of study on a text. (43m 58s): Yeah. That’s necessary. Yeah. That’s that’s different from I can’t do it in this one sermon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I I’m thinking of folks that like want to want to read the Bible expansively or are queer or are women or folks of color and they open up the Bible and because they haven’t studied in seminary or because they haven’t had a pastor do this sort of work for them, they open it up and they see, they read a passage and they think like, oh, here it says that like, because they just absorbed from the mainstream conservative Christian media, white media, like evangelical media. Like, oh, well here it says God as a man, or I’ve heard this passage say that sex is bad, or I can’t trust my desires. (44m 42s): And there’s not sort of like, maybe they don’t even want to believe that, but like, that’s just all they’ve ever heard. And I mean, obviously I’m gonna start telling people to, you know, go through The Women electionary as one starting point. But like, do you have a, like a, like what’s the, like the good word for people who when they open up the Bible, it like feels scary or they see condemnation or, or an angry God or an empire God in it. So those things are there, those things are real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s very much like going into a foreign country without a map. And that doesn’t always turn out well. You know, people begin these reading projects and they get to, sometimes it’s usually Leviticus Yeah. (45m 30s): That they, they fall apart. I had a Jewish men’s study group tell me that they made it all the way through. They go, they said, we go through the Torah, you know, during the year. So we decided, we decided, okay, we, we are doing all of this. I had a men’s bible study group in the synagogue say that because they go through the Torah during the three-year cycle, they wanted to read more. And so they started with Joshua because that was next after the Torah. They were so horrified by the violence and the calls for violence from God that they stopped. (46m 14s): And I had a talk with them about reading Joshua as a veteran, telling his stories. I was an army chaplain and we talked about the way that soldiers experience battle in the middle of it after it. And all the ways their stories differ from the official histories and how they are often the hero in their stories as a way of understanding the type of literature. Joshua, is to give them one way of looking at it. But it’s very difficult to just read without a guide. (46m 55s): Sometimes people have a very good experience of it, in part because of their prayer life or whatever is within them as an individual. But it is frightening and disappointing to other people and can be easy to be heard in prescriptive rather than descriptive terms. So what I would say is use one of the reading programs that does like a chapter of Hebrew Bible, a Psalm, and a chapter of New Testament a day. So you’re not just slogging through Leviticus For four weeks. (47m 41s): You’re encountering this difficult text along with a psalm that makes you, can make you feel better or more familiar territory. And something from the New Testament. I find that works fairly well. I love that suggestion. Thanks. I, I feel like we could keep talking forever, but I, I wanna be honoring of your time and so if, if folks wanna know more about you and and your work, where is the best place for them to connect with that? Will gaffney.com. Excellent. We’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you so, so much for the time that you’ve given us today. This is, this is gonna be really meaningful to a lot of folks, so we really appreciate it. (48m 23s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Putting Women Back In The Story with Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney appeared first on Queer Theology.

For this episode of the podcast, Fr. Shannon has a sermon for Easter to share with y’all as our sort of virtual community and congregation of sorts! And there isn’t a coffee hour after, but if you would like to join in discussions, come on into our community at Sanctuary Collective.  In this sermon, Fr. Shannon explores the significance of the resurrection of Jesus, emphasizing its relevance to our daily lives and the transformative power it holds for individuals and communities. This call is to revolution and to live out the principles of justice and love in the present. We encourage you all to actively participate in creating a better world, rooted in the hope and empowerment that the resurrection brings.   Takeaways Easter is often viewed as a future promise rather than a present reality. The resurrection of Jesus has implications for how we live today. Women played a crucial role in the resurrection story, becoming the first evangelists. The resurrection signifies a shift in community dynamics and relationships. The movement of Jesus continues to inspire hope and action against oppression. Living out the resurrection means engaging in justice and community service. The promise of resurrection is a message of hope for the marginalized. Fear should not prevent us from living fully and courageously. We are invited to participate in the work of creating a better world. Embracing our fears can lead to transformative action.   Chapters (03:44) Easter’s Impact on Daily Life (06:31) The Role of Women in the Resurrection (09:30) The Shift in Community Dynamics (12:25) Living Out the Resurrection Today (15:29) Embracing Fear and Living Fully   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Alright. Happy Easter y’all. So a little piece of Queer Theology podcast history is when we first started this podcast a million years ago, episodes used to come out, I think on like Tuesday or th on, I think it was on Tuesday, and we had this idea that like folks who were preaching that coming Sunday as we were going through the lectionary could sort of use it and be inspired by it and incorporate that into their sermons if they wanted to. (1m 2s): And what we quickly found was that some pastors were listening to it, but there are a lot of non pastors, a lot of just like regular Christians were listening to it in lieu of what were in addition to going to their church services that it became sort of a Sunday sermon for them that they listened to on Tuesday. I know some folks would say, I actually wait until Sunday to listen to it because it’s kind of become my queer church. That whether they don’t have a, maybe you don’t have a church in your area that feels inclusive and affirming or you that so you don’t go to one at all or you do go to one, but there’s just sort of like they’re affirming, but maybe it’s not like as queer forward as you would like, and so you would like a little extra queerness in it. And so sort of like in that style as an homage to that, Shannon has a sermon for Easter that he’s going to preach for you and share for you today as our sort of like virtual community and congregation of sorts. (1m 57s): And this is a podcast, so there isn’t a coffee hour unfortunately after this, after this. But if you would like to join in discussions, not just today, but all throughout the day and the week and and the years coming into our community at Sanctuary Collective and you go to queer thou.com/community to learn about that. And with that, I’ll turn the mic over to Shannon for today’s sermon. Our gospel reading today is from Matthew 28 verses one through 10. After the Sabbath at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the tomb. Look, there was a great earthquake for an angel from the Lord came down from heaven coming to the stone. He rolled it away and sat on it. Now his face was like lightning and his clothes as white as snow. (2m 41s): The guards were so terrified of him that they shook with fear and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, don’t be afraid. I know that you were looking for Jesus who was crucified. He isn’t here because he’s been raised from the dead justice. He said, come see the place where they laid him. Now hurry, go tell his disciples he’s been raised from the dead. He’s going on ahead of you to Galilee. You will see him there. I’ve given the message to you with great fear and excitement. They hurried away from the tomb and ran to tell his disciples, but Jesus met them and greeted them. They came and grabbed his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, don’t be afraid. (3m 21s): Go and tell my brothers that I’m going to Galilee. They will see me there. I grew up in a church where Easter was a big deal. We dressed up and had sunrise services and pulled out all of the stops. And yet at the same time, my church kind of sort of believed that the really important stuff theologically had happened on Friday with Jesus’ death. Sure, we believed in the resurrection and thought it mattered, but it mostly seemed to be about something that impacted what happened to us after we died. If we believed the right way, then we would get to go to heaven, but this idea of Easter of Jesus rising from the dead didn’t entirely have an impact on how we lived right here and now. (4m 7s): It was a future thing, so we celebrated but mostly about what would happen later. Well, I know the church that I grew up in was different than a lot of the churches you might have grown up in. I think for a lot of us, we carry the same kind of belief with us. The resurrection matters, but we’re not entirely sure why or it matters, but for the future, not for today, and before we can even get into that, it feels important to name that. I know Easter might bring up some disparate feelings for folks. For some of you, you absolutely believe in the resurrection of Jesus. No questions asked for others. (4m 48s): You might have some doubts or questions, some might not believe in it at all. Know that whatever you’re coming into the space with your questions, your doubts, your confusions are welcome here. And not only that, but centuries of scholars and theologians and pastors have had these conversations and don’t all agree. And yet we still have these stories that we keep on talking about and debating and telling year after year. Some of you might be hoping this sermon goes super fast that you can get back to music or to lunch still, others might feel like there is nothing new in this story. (5m 30s): You’ve heard it every year. You know the ending, And I hear you like Christmas. We know these stories. We think we have them all figured out, but I believe if we continue to grapple with them, we might still find ways to be surprised. So no matter how you’re entering this space today full of belief or full of doubt or just here to please your family, I hope we can go on a journey together to see what this story might have to say to us. Still in the newer testament, there are four stories of Jesus’ life and ministry called the gospels. Each of these stories tells about the resurrection of Jesus in a completely different way. (6m 11s): Each of the writers were trying to make sense of this story for their community and what they were going through. This story that we read today comes from the gospel according to Matthew. And we’re going to look at just this story and not try to cram all of the different stories together. Now in this account. Before we get to this moment in the garden, we need to pay attention to a few other things. Jesus’s disciples, the people who had been following him for years, the ones who left homes and families and businesses in order to join Jesus’s ministry and mission in this account in Matthew, the writer tells us that when Jesus is arrested, they all run away. (6m 54s): Peter Jesus’s right hand person is present during the trial, but he denies Jesus and then he too disappears. These men are now in hiding gone. They are not present at the cross. They don’t help to bury Jesus. They run away. And we can understand why Jesus’s ministry happens in the context of Roman occupation, the Roman government heavily taxes the people, earns money off of their labor and oppresses them at every turn. And when someone tries to fight back, they are killed. There are stories of lines of crosses. Lining the roads into towns is a symbol of what happens when you try to fight back. (7m 36s): Jesus comes onto the scene in this atmosphere picking up the mantle of many other prophets and activists and healers who say, we don’t have to live like this. We can live in a world where there is enough for everyone. We can live in a world where there isn’t oppression. We can live in a world where there is food and clean water and healthcare. We can look out for one another and well like many other prophets and activists and healers. This message doesn’t go over super well with the folks who are sitting at the top of the keep. The ones who are making money off of other people’s work, the ones who already have everything they need and worry. This call to help others means they’ll have less. (8m 19s): We’ve seen this story before. We see it still. And so Jesus is arrested. He’s tried as a criminal, as one who’s stirring up descent and his followers, his friends know that they might be next. And so they run and they hide. They’re heartbroken that their friend and leader is dead. They are terrified that they will be killed next. They feel like this movement that they have given everything to is a failure. They thought this time it was going to be different, but now here it is ending up like all of the other movements. Rome is still in power. They are still being crushed and now their friend is dead. (9m 1s): And so we can understand their desire to hide, to protect themselves. And yet after the Sabbath is over, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come to the tomb in this account. They don’t come to anoint Jesus’s body because that’s already been done by the woman with the perfume before Jesus’ death. In this version of the story, they come to sit vigil. They come to make sure that no one can steal the body of Jesus. They come to make sure Jesus is not disappeared like so many others, they come to make sure their friend’s body is left alone. They come to the tomb knowing there will be guards there knowing they will be at risk and they come there anyway. (9m 45s): And when they arrive, they’re met with an earthquake and an angel and the angel rolling the stone away. This is an echo of stories and prophecies and language from Daniel language that the community would’ve known and recognized. Not only is something incredible happening here, it’s happening as part of our tradition. The women are given the call to go and tell the brothers that Jesus has risen. This is really beautiful for a couple of reasons. First, Jesus calls the disciples, his brothers, even after they ran away, even after they left him, even after they didn’t show up and denied. Jesus is saying restoration is possible. Not only that, there is still work to be done. (10m 27s): The movement isn’t over. So Jesus restores these men to relationship. And second, it’s the women, the faithful ones, the ones who showed up who get to be the bearers of this good news. They’re given the role of evangelists and as they turn to go and fulfill their role, they see Jesus in the garden and become not only evangelists, but also the first witnesses to the resurrection. In a time when women’s word wasn’t allowed in the court of law, in a time when women were on the margins, they become the first ones to see Jesus. They become the ones given the message and told to share it with others. (11m 7s): Share. In this story we see that something new is happening, A new way of being community, a new way of showing up for one another, a new way of organizing ourselves that doesn’t fall into the old notions of power and hierarchy. It’s important to pay attention to how radical it is that we even have this story. The gospels written years after Jesus’ life and death could have covered this up. They could have realized that this story would’ve made their claim about Jesus less likely to be believed. And yet they left it in. The fact that we have this story tells us that something new is happening, something important, something beautiful. (11m 47s): As we’ll see over the next several weeks, if you keep reading the lectionary texts, that even though Jesus is alive, people are still afraid, they’re still doubting, they’re still in hiding. Jesus was resurrected, but the church didn’t spring up, ready to go. They’re still floundering and nervous. They still didn’t quite know what to do. They still couldn’t really absorb how the resurrection changed things. One thing was clear, though nothing would ever be the same because the empire, the kings, the rulers had killed a poor prophet and leader of a nonviolent movement. And in the past that would’ve been the end of things. The movement would’ve scattered or changed directions or found a new leader. (12m 27s): But this time the leader comes back to life, the powers that be tried to quell a movement. But God said, no, not this time. And in the moment it became about more than a movement. People started to realize that now everything was different. This inbreaking of God into the world in Jesus shifted it all before the powerful always won. The poor were always beaten down, the people who had the most weapons and soldiers and might always won. But now it’s the little guy, the marginalized, the poor, the women, the oppressed living in occupied land. Now there something to hope for because if the empire can’t kill you, there is nothing really to fear and a people who aren’t afraid of dying, a people who cannot be killed, these people are dangerous. (13m 21s): As that started to sink in, the whole movement of Jesus followers shifted. They started carrying themselves differently. They started speaking with more confidence. They started making noise and making changes. And one could say that they changed the world. And we are inheritors of that. We are part of that movement that when lived out is still shaking things up and is still striving to bring about the kingdom of God right here and right now. And that my friends is good news and that is also our invitation. Will we do what’s right for each other, for our communities, for the least of these, even when it’s hard, even when it’s scary, even when it’s dangerous? (14m 4s): And that is the message for us here and now. It’s not about some future reward, it’s not about heaven when we die. It’s right here in this moment, in your city, in your state, we are called to continue the work of Jesus, which he laid out for us in Matthew 25 to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to visit those in prison. A reminder that when we do things for the least of these, we do them for Jesus. And a promise that if you are one of the least of these, if you live on the margins, if you are oppressed or left out or beaten down, that God is on your side. The promise of resurrection is God’s yes to you and God’s no to the powers that oppress. (14m 48s): And so whatever you’re carrying today, grief or stress, doubt, fear, know that God is with you. There is a word of hope for you in this ancient story. And know that the invitation to create a better world, to participate in the kingdom of God is open to anyone who will do their part. You are invited to play a part in the new creation right where you are by planting a garden, by feeding your neighbors, by working for justice, by standing up for someone who’s being beaten down. Every little bit helps. Will you answer the invitation? Will you do your part where you are? Can you imagine what would happen if we really lived this way, if we really believed that we can make a difference if we really believed that none of us were too small or too unimportant or too afraid, and instead did whatever we could to bring about the kingdom of God here and now, that would indeed be good news. (15m 47s): This call of Easter is for all of us to believe that God invites us into the work to believe that we can carry on the mission of Jesus, to trust that we can do it scared or full of doubt, the mission is entrusted to us just as we are. So may you play your part. May you seek justice. May you be a witness to the good news you have seen and invite others to join you in the work. And may we bring about the kingdom of God right here, right now, right in our midst. Amen. And I offer as a benediction a prayer for a remembered death by the Reverend Mike Abusey. (16m 29s): I was hemming and hawing about my fears. Will my body be safe? Will my mind be safe? Will my heart and lungs be safe? Should I make this choice? Should I raise my voice? Should I put my privilege and my life on the line? And my sweet and my sweet sister smiled and said, I once met a woman who shared that when her fear for her own life started to pull her back from actually living, she stopped and said to herself, I am already dead. And my brain broke open. I am already dead. I am dust And I am stardust. A fragile collection of glitter crumbs, ages old already honed by countless supernovas who decided to come together and dance for a short sacred time as one magical me made shape. (17m 17s): My cells and my soul will move together until the moment they tear apart and drift off to become another star, another shape, another fear-filled already dead living thing. So live you are already dead. And every tiny shiny particle that makes up your parts knows how to dance a revolution because they’ve done it all, endured it all and danced it all before you are new and you are infinite and you are finite. And that is freedom. So move with the courage of the supernovas who continue to shape this world. You were born to die like the brave beings who have blazed before, who looked fear in the eye and said, I’m already dead, so I’m gonna go outlive in. (18m 4s): You are dust in your stardust. And to both will you return. So turn it out while you’re here. Feel the fear, but also feel the fire that is not only burning you alive, but burning you to life. Amen. Alright, thank you so much for that message, Shannon. And to everyone listening who is celebrating Easter today, I hope you have a very happy Easter. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. (18m 45s): We’ll see you next week. The post The Revolution Starts Here appeared first on Queer Theology.

Fr. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” is out April 15th and he can’t wait to share it with y’all! In this episode, we delve into the complexities of masculinity, particularly from a trans perspective, and discuss the societal expectations and pressures that men face. Shannon emphasizes the need for a new understanding of masculinity that is inclusive and healthy, addressing the crisis many men experience today. This discussion is especially important as we head into a new era of men defined by evangelical Christian beliefs.    Takeaways This book is about unlearning harmful masculinity. Trans perspectives can offer new insights on masculinity. Many men feel a sense of not being enough. There is a crisis in masculinity affecting men’s health. Healthy masculinity can improve relationships. Men often struggle with societal expectations. The book aims to provide practical steps for change. Courage is needed to redefine masculinity. Men’s closest relationships reflect their overall behavior. The conversation about masculinity is ongoing and necessary.   Chapters (02:08) Exploring Masculinity: A Trans Perspective (06:44) The Crisis in Masculinity (12:47) The Need for New Masculine Models (17:02) Identifying Male Suffering (19:25) Romance and Relationships in Masculinity   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  Grab your copy of No One Taught Me How To Be A Man at https://www.queertheology.com/books/   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. I am so excited for today’s episode of the Queer Theology Podcast because if you listen to this on the day comes out, it means that Shannon’s newest book, No One Taught Me How To Be A Man is coming out in just two days. We’re gonna share a bit of a sneak peek. I think this is an exclusive sneak peek the first time it’s been Anything from the book has been shared at length publicly, so you’re in for a treat and we’re gonna just like jam on masculinity and the book and more. (1m 2s): So I’m really excited about that. Shannon, before we dive into your book, your, your, your selection in just like a sentence or two. What is this book and who is it for and what do you hope to accomplish with it? Yeah, this is a book about masculinity mostly for cisgender men, but for trans and queer men of all stripes to think about what are the things that we might need to unlearn in order to be healthier men for ourselves and for all of the people around us. So it looks at like different models of masculinity and what they’ve taught us and what in those lessons might be good and what in those lessons might be bad. And so I’m really hopeful that it opens up a conversation for men who have been thinking that their masculinity or the way that they embody their masculinity might need, need to change, but they’re not quite sure how to navigate that. (1m 53s): I love it. And would you share a, like a selection from your book with us? Yeah, so this is, this is the introduction of the book, so it’s a, it’s a way to kind of let you know a little bit more about what I was thinking and who this book is for. When I posted online that I was writing a book about masculinity, someone commented, I’m sorry, you have nothing to add to this topic when you hear that I’m a transgender man, you might agree with that random internet commenter. As a trans man, my credentials might seem to some to be suspect, yet it’s this very identity that has helped me to see and understand masculinity in a new way. As a transgender man, No One Taught Me How To Be A man. I wasn’t raised as a man, nor was I indoctrinated into masculine spaces when I figured out my own maleness. (2m 38s): After a lifetime of wordless, not enoughness, I had to make a masculine space for myself. My sense from talking with many other men and extensively studying the research on masculinity is that even those who were raised as men feel they too had to figure it out on their own. The struggle to figure out what it means to be a man and how to feel like you’re enough gets more complex. As the world changes rapidly, we continue to look for models to help us sort out how to be in the world. As I tried to figure out what being a man meant to me, I went first to the various streams of conversations about men and masculinity, but in each of them I found something to be lacking. Some fundamental piece was missing. There were residences, but none of them fully explained my experience of the world. (3m 20s): Some were centered around body parts And I knew from experience that it wasn’t those parts that made me a man. Some were centered on healing relationships with other men, but I had close male friends and that wasn’t doing it either. Some were focused solely on how to get and maintain relationships with women, and that too felt like not the whole picture, something was missing. I did what many men tried to do. I experimented. I tried on lots of different ways to be a man from the hyper-masculine man to the fierce protector to the gentleman, until finding some kind of mix that felt authentic and didn’t do harm to the people around me. On that journey, I look to other men to media portrayals of masculinity, to feminist conversations about toxic masculinity. (4m 0s): And in each place I try to figure out where I fit and what was missing. I realized that my unique upbringing, my own journey and what I’ve experienced in moving through masculine spaces might help unlock something for men who have that same sense that something is missing but can’t quite figure out what. You might be wondering why we need another book about masculinity. Haven’t we spent enough time talking about men and men’s issues? On the surface, it certainly seems men have been centered in far too many conversations for far too long. And the spate of books about the various crises and masculinity seem designed to make that center hold. And yet, in the midst of all of these conversations, we seem to have found very few solutions talking about masculinity isn’t new. (4m 43s): While there haven’t been the same well-defined waves as there have been in the feminist movement, there have definitely been streams of conversation that overlap, argue with one another and try to solve the problem of masculinity. In this work, the question often becomes, is it masculinity that’s the problem, or is it men? Is it possible to separate the two? Is there a way to encourage healthy masculinity? And what happens if we disagree on what healthy masculinity means? People have posited all sorts of solutions to the issue. Some thinkers say, if we could just, if we could simply recover some kind of warrior ethos, we’ll be alright. Others say, we just need kinder and gentler men. Some have theorized that it’s about connecting with an absent father or healing your father wound. (5m 25s): Others want us to engage in initiation rights, often stolen from indigenous communities. There are some who believe the way forward is to eradicate gender entirely. Some say everything masculine is toxic, while others say toxic masculinity doesn’t exist, and people are just shaming men for being men. What’s often lost in the midst of these schools of thought is the average man just trying to get through the day. Men who feel like they’re floundering and don’t know where to turn for help. From my conversations with other men, many of us feel like something is missing, something isn’t right. We feel like there should be be more, But we have no idea how to get it. We continually feel like we’re not measuring up to what our partners want and are expecting to the other men in our lives. (6m 6s): To a society that seems to keep moving the goalposts, it feels like hyperbole. But when we look at the statistics, there is indeed a crisis in masculinity. This isn’t some far right talking point about how we need to man up, nor is it simply a liberal left viewpoint about eradicating all of gender. No, this is a real crisis that is threatening the health, relationships, and wellbeing of men. And because of the way many men have been raised and indoctrinated, when men are hurting, they tend to hurt the people around them. All you have to do to see that, that this threat is real is look at the data from men delaying going to the doctor, to men having few to no friends outside of their romantic partners to the high rates of suicide. (6m 46s): Not only that, but men are also struggling with how to parent, how to date and find partners and how to connect. These statistics affect not only men, but also everyone in those men’s lives. There are direct links between the ways men are suffering and the harm they do to other people. If we truly want a healthy society, we have to address this crisis. What we’ve been doing hasn’t been working. We need a new kind of thinking and intervention that will allow men to show up for themselves and others. This book is an examination of masculinity that isn’t centered on biology or body parts. It’s an exploration of what it might take to be a good man in this world that seems filled with toxic men. It’s about masculinity that centers women and other people of marginalized genders, but that also makes space for men to be themselves. (7m 30s): It’s a plea for a healthy masculinity, a wholehearted masculinity and a gentle masculinity. And it’s written by a man who had to figure out on his own what masculinity was. This book is for men. If you identify as a man, if you move through the world as a man, then you’re welcome here. We’re not going to define what makes a man in this book. I don’t care what body parts you do or don’t have. I don’t care who you’re attracted to or not attracted to. I’m not worried about your testosterone level or your chromosomes or your DNA if you’re a man. This book is for you. If you’re wondering if you’re man enough, you’re, if you’re wondering if I’m going to try to tell you to stop being a man, I’m not. If you’re wondering, if I’m going to prescribe a one size fits all version of masculinity, that once again leaves you out, then fear not. (8m 13s): And keep on reading this book, book won’t argue that there’s only one way to be a man and that trans men, queer men, and anyone who doesn’t fit the stereotype aren’t men. Nor will it say that masculinity is just fine. And the real problem is all the women getting so upset about things. I don’t think the way forward is to reclaim the past and bring back old notions of chivalry and manliness. So if you’re open to the conversation, then let’s have it. If you’re hungry to think about being a man in new ways, if you’re feeling lonely in your masculinity, if you’re feeling like there’s no room for you in the world anymore, this book is for you. If you’re feeling like all of the old ways are dying out and you just don’t understand why, then read on. If you’re wondering why it seems like so many men are dying by their own hands or struggling to form relationships or feeling isolated, then we’re in this together. (9m 0s): If you’re a trans man who’s trying to figure out how to inhabit your new id, if you’re a queer man who senses, you’ve got some unhealthy practices or coping skills to unlearn. If you’re still figuring out what masculinity means to you, you’ll find a place here. What we’re not going to do in this book is decide who gets to be a man and who doesn’t. That’s a losing game for all of us. It sets up walls. You might be surprised to find yourself on the outside of them for too long. This idea of one right way to be a man has left too many of us feeling like we’re not enough, we’re not tough enough or cool enough or strong enough. But on the other hand, there are men who feel like they’re not sensitive enough or quiet enough or gentle enough to fit in anymore. This book is for all of us as we try to figure out what it means to be men in our current world. (9m 43s): I’m not going to ask you to stop being a man. I’m not going to tell you that we need to abolish gender or get rid of the binary, but I am going to ask what we mean by masculinity. I’m going to invite a conversation about how we’re showing up as men, and if that’s actually serving us. I want us to open up the doors to the secret places where many of us are wrestling, but are afraid to say it out loud. Yes, we’ll talk about how to be better husbands and fathers, but in some ways that’s a side note. It’ll happen automatically if we learn to be healthier Men, if we learn to be healthier men, our relationships, all of them, friendships too will deepen. Our physical health will get better. Our mental and spiritual health will improve. We’ll see a shift in our relationship to ourselves and our communities. (10m 25s): Does that seem miraculous? I promise It’s possible if we show up, if we do the work, if we allow ourselves to ask the questions and really listen to the answers and change the ones that we don’t like. This book is inclusive of transgender men, obviously, as it’s written by one. And it’s inclusive of men who are gay or queer and of men who are straight and who have never questioned either their gender or their sexuality a day in their lives. Our experiences of masculinity will differ from each other based on our class, our race and ethnicity, and the ways we were raised. Instead of trying to flatten the experience of masculinity, we should open it up. We all have something to learn from one another. It’s no secret the world is changing and many of us are feeling left behind the jobs that were once highly coveted for, their security, longevity and high pay don’t exist anymore, and they’re not coming back. (11m 13s): The ways many of us were taught to be, to speak, to act, to treat others aren’t seen in the same light anymore. The ways we formed relationships in the past aren’t available to us. In a world of fast and easy connection, we are lonelier than ever. After years of struggling exploring and experimenting, I’ve come to an experience of masculinity that I dream of for all men. I want us to have ease in our bodies, to feel like we are enough to have solid partnerships, to feel capable and competent in our workplaces and our in our households. To have deep friendships, to be physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy and to be content. While this might sound like a far-fetched dream, I do believe it’s possible. (11m 53s): Make no mistake. It’ll take courage. Courage to go against the grain, courage to face our deepest selves. Courage to shift generational narratives. When we do these things, people will push back. It will be uncomfortable for us and others. We’ll have to learn new ways of being and speaking and hold tight to them even as it disrupts the those around us. Change is hard. It’s easier to just keep doing what we’ve been doing, even if it doesn’t work anymore. We need courage now more than ever. Courage to face what’s no longer working for us. Courage to shake off ways of being that are holding us back. Courage to lean into discomfort and take charge of our growth so we can be the people we wanna be. Here’s what I promise, it’ll be worth it. (12m 35s): Amen. That’s that’s, I mean, I read it and I’m still like big tingling from that. So I have, so a bunch of questions. One is you do a lot of different types of work and you have written and preached and taught on a bunch of different topics. Like how did you end up wanting to write a secular book about masculinity out of all the other books you could, you have written and might write and will write? I feel like this was a topic that just wouldn’t leave me alone. It, it’s one that I started thinking about like a while ago, but didn’t feel ready to write. (13m 21s): It’s, it’s funny how like sometimes that just happens, right? We, we have this idea, but then we have to kind of grow into the idea. And part of it was that, you know, when I started my transition, I started reading a ton of books about masculinity. Like I even did a, a self self-guided study on masculinity as like part of my seminary education, education. And from the very get go I was reading these books and being like, I don’t, something is missing here. Like even as I was still very new in my own masculine journey, I just, I was like, I, these, I feel like these men are just, they don’t, they can’t even see what they can’t see, right? (14m 8s): And that I am seeing something else like as a trans person reading these books. And so that kind of planted the idea in my head that it was like, I think that something about transness is opening up a new window. And then I read some, some more recent books that were like trying to help men be better partners, right? And these were books by women, cis women who were very much like in touch with wanting men to be healthy. And yet they too were making all of these assumptions that were really based on societal expectations and not reality. Right? Like Fair Play, which is a book about like yeah. (14m 50s): Household, which I love. I love it too. It was like a super, super help helpful book. And also there’s all sorts of stuff in that book that I was like, this is not, this is not gender. Like this isn’t gender that you are assuming. Yeah. Like you’re making all of these assumptions. And and then there was another book also by a cis woman also, not To, not to knock on fair play, but like my partner And I read it and we had to, we’re like, well, we have to do a lot of translating ’cause this is like very clearly Yes. Meant for a like man, cis straight man and a cis straight woman and their kids. Right. Also, like at the end of the book, she kind of concludes it with like, I don’t know, like if you can get your husband to like carry like a third of the weight, like that’s a win. (15m 35s): You should really sell it. Like that’s like, that’s as good as it’s ever gonna get. Yeah. What, there’s some wild stuff in that book. There was also like a whole chapter about like identifying what type of husband your husband is. And one of them I was like, well, that’s my wife And I am, I’m the, I’m the wife in this situation. Yeah. Right. And so it’s just like these things. And then there was this other book also written by a cis woman that was like, you know, about how to, how men could be healthier. And she had something that I found really striking of that there was a man in her life that was being vulnerable and it upset her. (16m 16s): And I was like, okay, the, so we have these like double standards, right? And we have these expectations that cis folks are bringing to the conversation that are just like not serving anyone. And it feels like there is a space now for a, a book that tries to get rid of some of those assumptions, or at least to to name the assumptions. ’cause I think that was the thing that was bothering me is that people were making assumptions, but they weren’t naming them as assumptions. They were just saying like, this is how it’s, And I was like, oh, trans folks bring something to the conversation because like, we don’t, we don’t get to just say, this is how it is. (16m 57s): Right. We had to figure out who we are from, from the jump. Yeah. In that passage you read, you said, I believe this is what you said that you, you mentioned like the secret places where many of us are suffering, but are afraid to say out loud. And can you like sort of name some of the ways in which you’ve been suffering or you’ve seen not to like make you like bleed for us? Or the ways that you’ve seen like men suffering that this book seeks to like shine a healing light on? Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think this sense of not enoughness is one that has been true for me. And I, I think is also true for other men as well. Like this sense of like, that you were somehow going to be found out, right? (17m 42s): Like for me it’s often like I am very deeply concerned in spaces with a lot of cis men of like being found out as trans and not putting me in danger. But I, but I think that there’s something else, right? Of like, people looking at me and, and, and judging me and saying like, oh, he’s not really a man or his masculinity is, is not authentic. And for me, again, it’s like, because of my transness, but I’ve seen in other men, like queer men who are worried that the ways that they’re carrying themselves are gonna reveal that they’re quote unquote not enough or too Effeminate. Yeah. All of the like no femme, like I Exactly. I want a real man. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, And I think that like even for cis straight men, there’s this sense of like, if I, if I am too emotional, if I am gentle, if I like, enjoy being with my kids, someone is gonna question my masculinity, my, so I think that that is a big one for a lot of folks. (18m 41s): And I think that there’s also, the other kind of big one that I’m seeing is like the world changing so fast and men, especially men of a certain generation, but not only like being unable to keep up, right? And that is both like technology and jobs, but it’s also like, what am I expected to do now? Am I expected to pay for the date or not? Am I expected to, I don’t be gentle or, or a protector? Am I like, what am I expected to do and how do I manage all of those expectations? (19m 21s): And I think that that’s a place that’s causing a lot of anxiety for men. Yeah. It’s, it sounds like a lot of that friction is happening in the context of like romantic relationships of what, and is that, is that like the true of this book? Or like how, like how is it about romance versus other spheres of life? Yeah, I I, it, there is a lot of, of like romance and partnership in the book, but I think that like, it, it’s because our, our re our closest relationships become a microcosm of how we act everywhere. Yeah. Right? So it’s like if you are someone who is not carrying your weight in your household, there’s a good chance you’re also not carrying your weight in your workplace, right? (20m 9s): So I think that whether you are partnered or not, this book like looks at the places where you might be feeling entitled to certain things because of your gender and how that might be playing out like in the, in all of the places you inhabit. So, you know, thinking about, there’s, I I tell a story in the book of my wife worked at a seminary and the seminary had like a shared kitchenette and she was like, it was only and always the men who would leave their dishes in the sink, in the kitchenette with the assumption, right? That like someone else would clean up after that in A progressive, a progressive seminary also, And this is a progressive seminary, right? (20m 52s): Like lots of queer and trans men working there. And she was like, it was striking to me that it was only the men that did that. And, but like that, and that was, but again, like, and so I can imagine that these men were also doing that at home, right? That there was this assumption that someone else would clean up for them. And I think that that assumption too of like, who in your workplace is in charge of remembering birthdays and getting the card and like bringing snacks for the whatever or organizing the annual potluck or whatever if, if we even do that at work anymore, but Right. Like, yeah. All of these ways that expectations are gendered and that I, I think we just need to be paying attention to the ways that those things are playing out. (21m 37s): Yeah. And you, you mentioned in, in the passage, like, we need a new kind of inspection, I think is what you said, or analysis. And you also like if we, if like we will do the work. And so like, I’m wondering, I mean I know that that’s like the book, but like, I guess like what, what is like new about this analysis and also, and like relatedly, I know that you’re not prescribing a like one size fits all approach, but like you said a few times, like something was, has been missing. And so like what is that missing piece and like what is the type of work that we, is it, is it like literal manual labor? (22m 18s): Is it like in our minds work? Like is it interper? Like what is, what is the work that we’re doing? Yeah, I mean, I, I think the work is like all of the above, right? There is, there is some unlearning we need to do about, or many of us need to do about like what it means to be a man and, and how we play that out. And so then as we do that unlearning work, some of it does become like manual labor to show up differently in our households and in our workplaces to like, you know, make sure that there is a fair distribution of labor or to learn for, for some of us who are not partnered it, it might be like to learn how to take care of the spaces that we live in, right? (23m 2s): Like, can you cook? You should be able to, right? Like whether you are living alone or with someone like you should be able to make some meals and do your own laundry and like pay attention when things are messy and, and not just assume again that that is like gendered labor. And so I think some of what is new is asking us to really examine, you know, what are the things that we are assuming about what it means to be a man and can we pay attention to those assumptions and, and hold them up. Some of, some of this is also like examining the different models of, of masculinity, which I think is not entirely new. (23m 50s): And also I think the way that I brought together like a bunch of different things is new right? There, there are folks that now that are starting to talk about like how growing up on sitcoms, right? Like taught men learned incompetence, right? And so like that is definitely part of this. But I think that there’s also, like, we got messages from our church and from evangelicalism about masculinity that like, whether you are in the church or even evangelical, that is now taking center stage in our country, right? Assumptions about what it means to be a man and how you interact with other people. (24m 32s): So I think putting all of that together and then, and then the other piece is that I’ve, I’ve tried to be really practical in this book of saying like, here are some next steps and here are some things to try and here are some things to like pay attention to and answer for yourself in a way that I hope it won’t just be like, great, now I’ve read this book And I don’t know what to do with it, but that it’ll actually like, give you some next steps and, and lead you into action. Ah, I love it. So it’s out tomorrow or it’s out in two days? If you’re listening to this, what is the exact date that it comes out? It comes Out Tuesday, April 15th. Fantastic. And so right now it’s already on sale. Obviously you can get it wherever books are sold. (25m 13s): We have some links to like the major retailers on our website at Queer Theology dot com slash books. But like you can go to your local bookstore and if they don’t have it in stock, every, all indie bookstores would be delighted to order it for you. And you can have it picked up there. Like it might be a few bucks more expensive than Amazon. Sometimes it’s the same price if you’re picking it up in, in store. So buy wherever books are sold, request from, from your library and stay tuned. I think we’ll be doing a book club about it at some point. So hop on our mailing list if you’re not already on there to get all of the details about that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (25m 54s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Exclusive First Look at “No One Taught Me How To Be A Man” appeared first on Queer Theology.

This week we are joined by Rev. Benjamin Perry on the podcast. Benjamin is author of “Cry, Baby: Why Our Tears Matter,” and an award-winning writer. His work focuses on the intersection of religion and politics. They hold a degree in psychology from SUNY Geneseo and a Masters of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary. He is married to Erin Mayer, they live in Maine with his brother and best friend. They are the editor of the Queer Faith photojournalism series, curator of an art exhibit by the same name, and a passionate advocate for building Church that lives into God’s blessed queerness. His two proudest achievements are skydiving with his grandmother and winning first prize in his seminary drag show. In this conversation, Benjamin discusses their journey as a queer minister and author, exploring the intersections of queerness, spirituality, and social justice. They share insights on the importance of emotional expression, particularly through crying, and the need for progressive voices in the face of rising Christian nationalism. The discussion also delves into Benjamin’s book, which examines the cultural stigma around crying and advocates for a world where emotional vulnerability is embraced. We explore the multifaceted nature of crying, discussing its physiological and social implications, the shame surrounding masculinity and emotional expression, and the intersection of queerness and vulnerability. Benjamin emphasizes the importance of grief and emotional balance in a world filled with anger and anxiety, advocating for a deeper understanding of our emotional lives and the connections they foster.   Takeaways I have to come out as queer and Christian. I joke that I professionally fight with evangelicals. Crying is a deeply human experience. We need more prophetic voices. The answer to hypocrisy can’t be silence. I didn’t cry for more than a decade. What would a world shaped by more open weeping look like? I made myself cry every day for months. I became a person who cried more easily. We need to create moral clarity. Crying serves as a physiological release and a social signal. Emotional tears contain higher concentrations of stress-related proteins. Crying can create unexpected connections between individuals. Public crying often invites empathy rather than judgment. Shame around crying is often rooted in societal norms and expectations. Men experience a double shame regarding their emotional expression. Crying can be a radical act of vulnerability and authenticity. Grief is a natural response to love and loss. Balancing grief and anger is essential for emotional health. Crying can be a deeply queer act, challenging societal norms.   Chapters (01:56) Introduction to Benjamin Perry (04:54) Spiritual Journey and Queerness   (15:10) Intersection of Religion and Politics   (27:15) Exploring the Book ‘Cry Baby’   (32:55) The Complexity of Crying   (36:00) Crying as a Connection Tool   (44:59) Crying and Queerness   (51:00) Grief, Rage, and Emotional Balance      Resources: Learn more about Rev. Benjamin Perry at https://www.benjaminjperry.com/  Cry, Baby: Why Our Tears Matter by Rev. Benjamin Perry  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hey there. Before we get into this week’s episode, just a reminder that Shannon’s new book, no one taught me How to Be a Man, what a Trans man’s experience reveals about masculinity is coming out very soon, on April 15th. Pre-orders are so important, and we would love for you to grab yourself a copy now, Shannon, in like a sentence or two, what is this book about and who is it for? (53s): This book is about my journey of figuring out what masculinity means to me and what that journey might open up for other people who consider themselves men or on the masculine spectrum as ways to embody and inhabit their gender in ways that feel good to them and are also healthy for people of other genders around them. So, really excited about this book. You can get that book wherever books are Sold. So if you’re an online shopper, you go to Bookshop, Barnes and Noble, or Amazon, we have links to all those three at Queer Theology dot com slash books, so you can get easy access to those. You can also go to your local bookstore, and if they don’t have it in stock, you can request it. Ask them to either like ship it directly to you or have it shipped to the store. (1m 33s): Putting in requests at your local bookstore will help booksellers know that this is a book that people are interested in, which really helps get the word out about this important book. Again, the title is No One Taught Me How to Be a Man. What a Trans Man’s Experience Review about Masculinity. It officially comes out on April 15th. If you pre-order, you might get it a few days early. So go ahead and do that now. All right, onto the episode. Welcome back to the Cariology Podcast. This week we have a special guest, Reverend Benjamin Perry, and you are really gonna enjoy this conversation. So here’s a little bit about Reverend Perry. Reverend is the Minister of Outreach and Media Strategy at Middle Church and author of Cry Baby, Why Our Tears Matter published by broadleaf books in May of 2023. (2m 18s): Benjamin is an award-winning writer. His work focuses on the intersection of religion and politics. The writing can be found in outlets like The Atlantic, the Washington Post slate, the Huffington Post, sojourners Bustle and motherboard. And he has appeared on SNBC Al Jazeera and New York one. They hold a degree in psychology and a Masters of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary. He’s married to Aaron Mayer. They live in Maine with his brother and best friend. They are the editor of the Queer Faith Photojournalism series, curator of an art exhibit by the same name, and a passionate advocate for building church that lives into God’s blessed queerness. His two proudest achievements are skydiving with his grandmother and winning first prize in his seminary drag show. (2m 57s): Welcome, Reverend Benjamin Perry. Welcome to the podcast. We are so excited for this conversation. Thank you so much for being here. It’s a delight to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So we love to start by asking, you know, we’ve heard your official bio, but if you were at a fancy queer cocktail party or a not fancy queer cocktail party, you know, how do you generally introduce yourself and your work? And in that, what are some identities that are important to you that you would like our listeners to know? What a loaded question. I feel like I, I, I always joke that I have to come out as queer and Christian spaces, And I come out as Christian and queer spaces like, like many a person. (3m 39s): And so I would say that usually I, I don’t lead with, I’m a minister because especially at a cocktail party that immediately launches into a whole bunch of, lots of throat clearing and other conversations that, like, especially at a cocktail party, I don’t necessarily wanna get into. Yeah. So I often, now that I’ve written a, a book I lead with, I’m an author, I write about crying and emotional intelligence, and then as we sort of get to know me a little bit better, then I will sort of peel the layers of the onion back and say, I’m actually, I’m also a minister. I do a lot of Queer Theology. I work a lot with how we can build religious communities that welcome and embrace all people, how we can use religion as a force for liberation and a collective flourishing as opposed to lot of the ways it is, it is currently being used by other shorthand way of saying that, particularly in, in a cocktail party setting is, I will joke that I I professionally fight with evangelicals, which sometimes is how my work fuels on the internet, even if it’s not the, the work of my spirit. (4m 40s): If you’ll Yeah. Yeah. O yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned that you, that you have written this book Cry Baby, Why Our Tears Matter, and we’re gonna get into that in a bit. But before we do, we would love to ask you just to share, you know, a little bit of your spiritual journey, what that’s been like for you and how queerness has intersected with that. Yeah, thanks so much for that question. I came out pretty late publicly. I was out to a lot of my friends by the time I was 18, 19, but I was still grappling with a lot of internalized homophobia and shame and moving through all that, all that good stuff. And then by the time I was in my early twenties and starting seminary, I had largely started to unravel a lot of that for me. (5m 29s): But then I started dating a woman and all of a sudden had all sorts of other feelings and, and fears and concerns like, oh, well maybe I don’t belong in the queer community and, you know, I, am I taking up space if I’m, you know, publicly identifying as queer, even if I’m in a hetero passing relationship. You know, went through a, a whole cycle of these new worries and doubts and fears. And so it wasn’t until I was, you know, 27 or so that I actually came out publicly and started doing Queer Theology from a more authentic and explicitly personal place. Prior to that, a lot of my work was around the Intersection of Religion and Politics. (6m 9s): Part of that actually ended up just being a, a function of a rather bizarre and unexpected series of, of life events. My third year of seminary I went to to school at Union Theological Seminary in New York City, and my third year there was the year of the Eric Garner non-decision. And so a lot of folks in my community and myself were involved in organizing and protest efforts. And one night, myself and another seminarian were out protesting, and we were on the FDR and the Riot Police showed up and, you know, charged with their shields and do what riot police do. And my friend And I were, you know, locked arm in arm. (6m 53s): And then we sort of got tackled and broken up and thrown into the pavement. And the officer who initially apprehended me whispered in my ear, like, get outta here. And I stood up And I turned, And I saw my friend who’s black in handcuffs, And I was like, well, like, see you later, Sean. Like, catch you in the morning. Have fun in jail. So I literally just stood around the FDR for another, you know, five, 10 minutes until another officer was like, what are you doing? And I was like, waiting, waiting for you to arrest me, I guess. And because this was so emblematic of exactly the same circumstances that we were in the street protesting in the first place, the story really caught on in a way that I was not expecting. (7m 35s): And so the New York Times ended up writing up a big story about it, and we were on Melissa Harris Perry’s show, And I was NBC in New York one and Al Jazeera and did the whole, you know, media circus, if you will. And this was right as I was applying for pastoral jobs. And all of a sudden all of these nice Presbyterian churches who I had been interviewing with mysteriously moved onto other candidates. And so I found myself graduating seminary without any, you know, fucking Yeah, that’s Presbyterians. That’s it. Maybe. So I was, you know, I literally, I graduated and was like, oh, I guess this past spring thing might not work out. (8m 16s): And because I had written some pieces around the same time that this was happening and that had gone fairly viral and it seemed like, you know, there was a place for me to write about this Intersection of Religion and Politics, I said, well, I guess I’ll do that. And so I worked as an editor at Time Inc for a couple years doing more editorial things. And I eventually, when Trump was elected, realized I couldn’t, you know, edit my Ford magazine and Caesar’s Total Rewards and these other, you know, magazines for time anymore. And so I, I approached Union and said, well, listen, you know, this ascendant Christian nationalism needs to have robust voices and engagement, people calling this out and saying, this is not Christian. (8m 57s): This is not faithful to the gospel. This is a perversion of everything about who Jesus was and what Jesus lived and died for. And I think that union could be the place, or a place that, you know, robustly amplifies this message in this presidency. And they were, I was fortunate enough that they, they took me on with that crazy idea, And I went and did public theology with them for a number of years where I, I was laughed when Trump would yell about paid protestors because that was, you know, largely a, a lie and a silly thing to say, but actually kind of accurately characterized a lot of my work for like the first three years of the Trump presidency as I would go around the country, you know, profiling the Poor People’s campaign and other popular, you know, religiously motivated uprisings against the, the violence of the Trump administration. (9m 49s): So that actually was a lot of the work that I, I did for a long time And I kept my own queerness. That was something I was sort of moving through personally, but it wasn’t explicitly a part of my public work. And then the United Methodist Church made their decision in 2019 to, you know, re entrench the homophobia that then was, you know, guiding their book of disciplines saying that queer folks couldn’t serve as ministers or be ordained. And we had a number of queer Methodist students in the ordination track at Union who were obviously very hurt and fearful and, you know, at, at a loss for exactly what to do with, you know, what this meant for their futures. (10m 35s): And I realized I, I needed to do something. I was, you know, in the communications office and we collectively needed to do something to respond to this. And I got, I’m so tired now and then of the same conversations about, you know, unpacking the glob or passages. And I just, It’s very funny when you invited me to this podcast, I was like, oh, I’m so grateful to both of you because oftentimes when I don’t wanna have that conversation, I point people to episodes that you have done. So I’m like, they do it so well, and then I don’t have to have this conversation with you. I can have a different conversation that is more life giving. But it took Us like five years before we, we were, ’cause we also were so over that. Yeah. We started this work to not have to do it and then like, so we just like ignored them for the first many, many years. (11m 19s): And then like, just everyone is obsessed with ’em. So I was like, we’re gonna record a handful of Things. Fuck, we might as well do it, Never do, never do them again, because like, that’s not where the life is. Yeah, exactly. And so, so I wanted some sort of response that would be, you know, affirmative of the place that I knew in my heart that queer people had in the church. And so I put together this photojournalism package called Queer Faith, where I had a, an incredible photographer, Mohamed Mia, who was an intern in, in our department at the time. And he took these gorgeous headshot of faculty, staff and students, all queer faculty, staff and students at Union coupled with testimonies about how we understood our own faith journeys and our queerness and how we saw those not as somehow contesting forces, but very much wrapped up in the same mission to live authentically and to nurture, thriving. (12m 15s): And I was reading all of these beautiful profiles and testimonies from students who had so much to lose by coming out. And I had so very little to lose that I, it it made my ongoing silence feel really intolerable. And so I, I came out publicly as part of that project and I’m so grateful that I did. In some ways I’m a little curious as why it took me that long because it then opened up this whole, you know, trajectory of my career since then that has become such a, a core part of the work that I do. That to that point I was sort of keeping locked up in inside of myself. And so I, I became a minister at Middle Church in New York, which is a very queer congregation. (12m 57s): I gotta do all kinds of incredible Queer Theology there. And, and now I’ve written this book about crying, but crying becomes this refraction point where I can actually talk about all of these other things that I’m so interested in discussing, like masculinity and queerness and power and race and, you know, whose tears are, are privileged and whose tears are cast aside. And how do we create a world where that kind of tenderness and softness that all people should enjoy is in fact the, you know, the water in which children grow up, the, the circumstances in which all of us experience life. Hmm. Love that. Yeah. I, oh man, I wanna just like jump right into that. (13m 37s): But I also, like a, a few minutes ago you touched upon the, like, intersections of religion and politics and it, it feels like perennially important, like when you were first coming up right? With Eric Gardner, I remember I like came out as queer right around the time of like the George Bush’s reelection campaign and all of the anti gay state constitutional amendments. Yep. And now we’re recording this before the election, but like Christian nationalism is alive and well it sure is. Like, it’s all just sort of like mixed up together. And so like, can you, And I know it’s complicated for, for progressive folks because on, we’ve seen the ways in which religion gets weaponized in public spaces by the, by the right. (14m 27s): And so I think there’s this like reluctance for some progressive folks to like, we, we don’t wanna like voice our religion on other people Right. But like religion and politics are mixed up together. And so can you talk about like why religious literacy is important for politics and maybe why political literacy is important for like religious folks and how those two are, are, are intertwined historically, but I also like what’s like, what’s the word in this moment? Yeah. And doing some time traveling. We we’re recording this before the election, but it will be coming out After election right. Days before Yes. Much trembling and trepidation. Yeah. You can like feel it in the air on the call. Yeah. (15m 8s): Yeah. I’ll say as a, as a Christian and a pastor, when we allow Christian nationalists to be the only people who are talking explicitly in public about religion and politics, we seed the moral center to people who are defining Christianity in a egregiously harmful and bigoted way. And as someone whose faith means an awful lot to me, I, I can’t personally sit and listen and not say something. So there’s just a personal part of myself that, that feels like I, I have, you know, Martin Luther here I stand, I can do no other, like, when I hear people talk in explicitly religious terms about how we need to deport millions of, you know, immigrant neighbors like that, that is a violation of some of the religious principles I hold most dear. (16m 7s): And so when I hear that, I feel the need to talk in explicitly religious language because otherwise people who do not have a lot of religious literacy will hear who might, you know, identify as Christians loosely and feel that that identity has some importance for who they are in the world. That they then may experience cognitive dissonance where they say, well, you know, on the one hand I don’t really want us to round up families and, you know, use military police to, to go after my neighbors. But if, if that’s the Christian thing, like, oh, I, well what, what am I to do? (16m 50s): And so I think creating a moral clarity where we actually accurately talk about like what is in the Bible, you know, pointing to passages where, you know, the Bible is very explicit about the command to welcome the stranger about that there shall be one set of laws to, to rule both the, the citizen and the, the non-citizen resident. You know, that these kinds of explicit commands are not somehow anti-biblical. They are the very substance that, you know, grounds our, our faith. Those kinds of things are really important also, when you have a, a movement of Christian nationalism that is using explicitly, you know, salvific terms to talk about Donald Trump again and again. (17m 42s): Yeah. And again, that kind of heresy, And I don’t use that word like freely or loosely, but like that is, that is what it is when you’re talking about any political leader, but particularly this political leader in these hagiographic terms as if, you know, he is in fact, Jesus, come again, if I as a minister do not say, I should probably just turn in my collar and and go do something else. Yeah, yeah. I I think that, you know, in this time we’re just, we’re in a space where We need more prophetic voices. (18m 23s): And, and when I, when I was, I was working at a, an an ELCA congregation in Minneapolis, and one of the things that I was finding is that my congregation was like super, super justice oriented, right? They cared deeply about their neighbors and the political sphere and they were working in all sorts of ways, but when it came to articulating that they were doing that work because of their faith. Yeah. Like that step was just missing for so many of them. And I think it was because of this reticence of like, we don’t wanna be like those other people that are in the public sphere that are talking about their faith so ridiculously, right? (19m 9s): Like, we don’t wanna be lumped in with evangelicals, we don’t wanna be lumped in with the Christian nationalists. And I think that there are a lot of people that are listening that are feeling that tension. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, of course I care about justice. Like of course I’m doing these things, but like, how do I make explicit that faith connection? And I’m wondering if you have advice for folks who are wondering like, how, how best can I have the conversation that is grounded in my faith? Yeah, Yeah. But to avoid being those other things. Yeah. Well I think it’s, it’s exactly what you were just, what you were just laying out that, you know, the answer to that hypocrisy can’t be silence and it can’t be a feeling of shame that somehow these justice commitments are made at odds with our faith that they are in fact expressions of our deepest values and beliefs. (20m 3s): I’ll share a little story from here in the woods of Maine where I live. There was a school district nearby that had really wonderful policies protecting trans kids. And I mean, basic common sense stuff. These are not radical policies that you, you know, teachers should use Children’s Pro the correct pronouns. Kids should be able to use the, the bathroom that is appropriate for their gender. I mean, you know, really, you know, don’t bully kids for being trans, like these kinds of policies. And a number of fundamentalist Christians ran for the school board and won school board seats and won a very narrow majority and decided to make it their first act as school board members to go after this policy and rescind it to replace it with nothing. (20m 60s): And so there was a, a big outcry from the queer community in the, in the area and a series of like seven hour hearings where we, I mean literally like, you know, a Parks and rec episode. We were there from 7:00 PM to like 2:00 AM and people, you know, open comment, everybody’s talking for three minutes and saying all kinds of things. And there were a lot of pastors who got up and spoke very explicitly about how Jesus condemns these children. And so, like in a context like that, it’s really important to talk about your own faith and not to do someone who say that, listen, everybody needs to believe what I believe or even that, like, my beliefs as a Christian should be, you know, addressing school board policy because they should not, you know, public schools are public schools. (21m 47s): Religion has no place in them. And when you have a open hearing where pastor after pastor is saying, oh, you know, God hates trans people and there are trans kids in that audience, it is really important to talk about your own faith. And I, I didn’t do it in a, when I testified at those hearings, I didn’t do it in the kind of way where I was at actually at all talking about what they were saying. ’cause I didn’t really care. I mean, I, I do care, but I, that’s not what I wanted the kids to hear. Didn didn’t want them to hear me talking about these toxic odious things that these other speakers had said. (22m 28s): I wanted them to hear that this is a community that cares about you, that God loves you, that this community is here for you. And hundreds and hundreds of people showed up to testify. And to say that this is, these are the values of our community by a, a measure of, I think it was like 80 or 90 people spoke against rescinding the policy to like 10 to 15 people who spoke for it. And those people were for all other parts of Maine. They had been Boston, they were not local to the community. And the, the school board heard all of this and they voted to get rid of the policy. Anyways, literally, children were coming up to the microphone begging them, please don’t take away this policy. (23m 12s): It’s what helps me feel safe in school. And these adults who listen to this after they heard teachers and social workers and pastors and all sorts of folks say, please, please keep this policy. They got rid of it. And what the kids in my community got to see next really speaks to what happens when we live into our values. Because there was an election the next Tuesday and there weren’t enough progressive candidates running. And there was very quickly a writing campaign organized, again, we’re talking small town Maine, it’s like 5,000 person towns A a writing campaign was organized. (23m 55s): And the, the can, the progressive candidate who everyone was encouraging folks to write in won by like 60 something votes. And kids got to watch adults in their community. So, you know what, we’re actually not going to sit and let these values that we cherish be trampled. Like that is the kind of pro proclamation of values that means something. And I don’t have to talk about Jesus to do it. I often do talk about Jesus, but it’s not essential. What is important is living into my own Christian values and explicitly articulating how my commitment to people, to kids is something that I’m willing to fight for and something that we collectively are not going to ignore. (24m 43s): What I think is so important about what you just said is, is that I, I think often people think that they have to combat or argue against the things that are being said by the other side, right? And that, and that part of the concern is why don’t, I don’t know how, like I don’t have the right argument. And I think what’s so vital about what you just said is like, it’s not about the argument, right? It’s in fact, we don’t even need to dignify their argument. Instead we speak from our own convictions and our own values. And I think that that, that also like gives people a sense of like, you don’t have to have all of the right answers, right? (25m 25s): Like, you can just share your story, you can share what, what matters and it’s important to you. And I think that’s really, that’s Important. Well, the other thing that happens when we feel like we need to have the right argument is we let the worst actors in our society dictate what all of the rest of us are talking about. And I’m really tired of that. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Amen. And, and not only do you like not have to have the like with the right argument or the right response that actually that, that is like a poor tactic. I remember before I did a lot of direct action activism. I like got Glad media training and they’re like, absolutely do not ever repeat back the opposition’s talking points. It like, just reinforces it in a public consciousness. (26m 6s): And I just like, I learned that in, I don’t know, 2007 And I feel like I’m still trying to teach people that ’cause it just like, you then say it. And now Twitter didn’t exist back then, but like every time you quote tweet something or you stitch a Instagram or a TikTok, you’re just amplifying the like, the garbage. And I like, I, I so appreciate it. You were talking about this school board meeting, you’re like, I don’t need to address these passwords. Like, that’s not what I want these kids to take away. I don’t want them, you, we need to like speak from the positive and like it’s more effective strategically. I also think that there’s like a, a faith-based and a pastoral reason to like not subject yourself to that, to not subject other people to that that, and, and also like, to your point, like lets the wor it lets the worst actors like define define the terms and define the parameters and define the assumptions of it. (27m 1s): And it’s just like I, I’m not willing or interested in like, seeding the moral framework to the assholes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for, thank you for bringing, bringing that up. We’d love to talk a little bit about your book Cry Be, And I’m wondering for folks who are hearing about it for the very first time, can you just give us a brief snippet of like, what is Cry Baby about and what inspired you to write this book? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for asking. So Cry Baby begins with my own journey being someone who didn’t cry for more than a decade, learning how to cry again, learning how to feel again. Then it goes into the physiology of crying, crying in literature, all to say, if crying is this deeply human experience, if it’s good for us, if it’s linked to transformation, why do so many people feel so much shame about crying? (27m 57s): And then the middle chunk of the book gets into all of these social forces that affect when and if we feel comfortable crying. And then the last third asks, if we could get rid of all of that, What would a world shaped by more open, weeping look like, inspired by the communities where that is already vibrantly present. And so the, the book came about in part because of an essay I wrote in the, the very beginning of the pandemic. I was living in Washington Heights at the time, and Columbia Presbyterian Hospital was two blocks away. And in the early days of the pandemic, they were parking more trucks in the street right in front of my window. (28m 42s): At the same moment that I was hearing all of these governors talking about, we need to get back to business, business as usual. And it was this perverse juxtaposition that sparked this recognition in my own spirit. I was like, oh, I, I know what that is. Like, that’s an inability to deal with Grief, an inability to, to really feel anything at all other than, you know, intellectually this desire for, for the thing that you are grappling with to no longer exist. And it reminded me viscerally of the time in my life that I didn’t cry. So between when I was, you know, 12 years old or so until I was beginning seminary, I didn’t cry at all. (29m 28s): A lot of that was, you know, my own internalized homophobia. The ways that I, I feared, you know, crying would expose parts of myself to other people that frankly I was not ready to deal with my own internalized transphobia and discomfort in my own gender. My, you know, all of this stuff had calcified into a point where feelings felt really threatening and dangerous. And so I, I didn’t do them for quite some time. And I then I learned, you know, I told this story in the, in the book that I had this experience at the beginning of seminary when I was in a Hebrew Bible class. And a professor asked us to share moments in our lives that we had wept in small groups. (30m 11s): And I listened as folks went around the circle and shared these beautiful experiences of crying. And as the, you know, proverbial baton was coming around to me, I realized that I had nothing. I I had vague memories of crying as a child, but nothing more recent. And it was this moment that crystallized for me that something inside of me was, was broken. And that if I was gonna provide effective and compassionate care to other people, I needed to figure out why I was so emotionally numb in the first place. And so I, I went back And I abused myself emotionally into crying that first day. (30m 51s): I had this euphoric experience of feeling something for the first time in a very long time in a, in a deep and real way. And it felt so good that I decided to engage in this odd spiritual experiment where I made myself cry every day for months. And this really interesting thing happened where over the course of, you know, days into weeks, my entire emotional baseline shifted And I just became a person who cried more easily. So whereas I, you know, went years and tears and years without crying, all of a sudden I would hear a beautiful piece of music and start to tear up. Or a friend would share a, a moving story And I would find myself in tears. (31m 33s): And so many days I didn’t have to go back and make myself cry at the end of the day. ’cause I had already cried at some other point. And so I, I wrote this article sharing this story of learning how to cry again as a microcosm for what I thought we needed to do culturally. And an editor approached me and asked, you know, would you be interested writing a whole book on crying? And I hadn’t thought about it at, you know, up until that moment. But the more I thought about crying, I realized how wrapped up tears are in all of these other social forces that I, I care a lot about writing about. You know, crying is rarely just about crying. And so it, it became this really beautiful opportunity to explore so much of what makes us human through this uniquely human act. (32m 17s): Hmm. Love that. I, I’m curious if you can, obviously people should just go read the book, but please do, if, if there is a, a a nugget of like, what, what is one thing that crying can or does do for us? I don’t, I don’t know if there’s like one thing that you could point to that would be A Yeah, it, it’s really interesting. In my, my chapter on physiology and crying, I talk about this sort of two camps in the psychological world. There’s, there, there’s folks who believe really strongly that crying is a physiological process that helps to release pent up neurotransmitters associated with stress. (33m 2s): There’s this scientist, William Fray, who in the, the eighties did this very famous experiment where he compared emotional tears to tears that you cry if you’re, you know, chopping an onion or you get dust in your eye. And he found that emotional tears have much higher concentrations of these various proteins. And so hypothesized that tears were actually detoxifying the body in, in literal ways. And then there’s folks on the social side of things exemplified by this Dutch psychologist Aho, who talk about crying as an interpersonal process. They’re evolutionary psychologists who talk about things like the fact that emotional, those that same elevated protein content makes emotional tears have a higher viscosity. (33m 51s): So it slows the rate at which they fall down our cheeks and makes it more likely that somebody else is gonna see that, that signal for a need of assistance. And research has repeatedly shown that when people see other folks who are crying, they feel more tender towards them, they’re more likely to offer help. That crying can be this invitation to connection even where it didn’t exist before. And in the book, I tell some stories about times in my own life where I cried with a stranger and all of a sudden felt tethered to that person who I did not know in ways that simply would not have happened from a, from a normal conversation that there seems to be something about the act of crying and particularly the act of crying with another person that builds these tender yet durable social interweaving. (34m 44s): That is something that I think is such a gift that we don’t talk about enough. I think so many of us have this shame and fear that if we cry openly in public, we are gonna be judged for it. That we’re gonna take up too much space in the room and not have a whole chapter devoted to times when that certainly is the case. I’m not saying that that’s never true, but more often than not, I think that when people cry in public, that’s actually not the reaction that other people have. That people are generally empathic. That we long for connection, particularly in this time of isolation and alienation and polarization that we yearn for interpersonal connections. (35m 24s): And so when we cry, it’s this invitation to a different kind of world that isn’t shaped by that kind of divisiveness, but is instead grounded in our common humanity. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I, I I think that you’re onto something there and that, that when people cry, that it, it triggers a, I dunno, like a natural sort of empathetic thing. And other people, and also like, I I think that we’re not people who are worried about being, I don’t know, a judged, for instance, or like, not entirely wrong, like, I don’t know if judge is the right word, but like, I’m thinking especially around like, tears around like Grief. Like one of my best friends died a few years ago. (36m 5s): My a family member’s family member died recently. And I’m just thinking in a way of like, people are like really, really, really uncomfortable with Grief. And so like, if you’re, like, once you’re crying, people can comfort you. But if you’re like, not crying, I, I found that people really want to like jump into like problem solving mode. Like make it, make it like kinda how you were saying like, I’m just gonna like not do the feelings, like make the feelings go away and fix it. And like, whether it’s like they’re in a better place, or at least they didn’t suffer, like whatever, like bullshit they used to try and shut it down. And so like, I do wonder if there’s like a communal response that it’s not just like you by yourself have to like, figure out how to cry more often, but like, how can we make space for like sadness without, and to sort of like really feel into that in a way that doesn’t try to solve it Well. (37m 0s): Yeah. ’cause Because if we can sit with that, like we, like you were saying, all of these really beautiful important things like come out of, come out of that space Yeah. And we learn so much about ourselves and one another. Yeah. And I think part of it, you’re, you’re not at all wrong. There is this collective aversion to, you know, going there, quote unquote. Yeah, yeah. In part because we don’t do it. And so people Like, it’s a muscle like anything else. And if you’re not, you know, well versed in accessing your emotions and being able to hold them, they can feel wildly unmanageable. And not to say that we should all have Yeah. You know, nicely controlled emotional lives, that’s not the point. (37m 42s): But the more that we are open with our own emotions, the more we become mindful of them, the more that we can, you know, have interactions that affirm what people are feeling without that reflexive need to fix. Yeah. In the book, i, I share one of my favorite little bits of, you know, things, practical things that you can do for the people in your life. This is a piece of advice that my clinical pastoral education supervisor shared with me. For folks who don’t know about CPE, this is something that pastors do as part of your training, oftentimes you’ll serve as a chaplain in a hospital. And I was working in the, the pediatric ICU and had lots of experie like moments where I was crying with other people. (38m 28s): And my supervisor pointed to this thing that so many of us do when someone else is crying, which is that we put, put our hand on their back and we rub in a circle. And this is not, you know, an evil act in and of itself. It’s not like I’m, I’m saying, oh, how, how dare you do that? You, you villain like this comes from a very emotional and empathic place of, oh, I see you hurting And I I want to take that away from you. I don’t want you to feel so much pain that you are clearly currently experiencing. But what that does is it communicates through this circular motion that like, I would like you to stop crying when in fact what we can really do to be there for someone is to instead sit with them in that feeling and say, you know what? (39m 16s): This is, this is okay. Like this is natural, this is normal. Of course you’re feeling this and I’m going to be here with you beside it. So what she encouraged to do instead is in, you know, still put your head on their back. But instead of rubbing in a circle, just hold it there. And what that communicates is, I am here for you as long as this takes and it changes the tenor of that interaction. And so I think there are little things like that and big things, but like, there’s so many little things that are just baked into the fabric of our own collective discomfort with, with Grief, with big emotions that we need to be really intentional about how do we create different kinds of interpersonal paradigms that don’t continue replicating these forces that I think all of us on some level know are damaging. (40m 3s): It’s really interesting. I have a whole chapter on masculinity and crying And I was talking with all these men who were sort of reporting these, these double shame that they had all of this shame about crying when they were growing up because it wasn’t manly, because it wasn’t, you know, associated with femininity. ’cause it was, you know, called gay what, what have you, they had all this this shame about the act of crying and now they are adults and they have all of this shame about not being able to access their emotions and not being able to cry. You know, see, you get it coming and you get it going. And, and part of what I’m trying to get across in this book is like all of that shame is not yours. Like this is something that has been handed to you by generations of patriarchy and white supremacy and all these other toxic forces that have taken something that is beautiful and human and loaded it with so many ambivalent at best feelings. (41m 0s): And just because it isn’t ours doesn’t mean that we don’t have a responsibility to do something about it. And so the question becomes how can we sift through all of that wreckage and excavate a more authentic relationship with our tears and with one another? I’m wondering if, for you, is there something inherently queer about crying? Yeah, it’s a really great question. I I would say queer in the sense of destabilizing supposedly fixed boundaries, boundaries and borders like that, that sort of academic queer theory definition of queerness. (41m 43s): Absolutely. One of the things that I love about crying is that it unearths things is quite literally, you know, moving through our bodies and dredging up all of the stuff that, that feels stuck. You can feel that experiential thing when you have that, that really good cry and all of a sudden you feel, you know, both drained but also in some ways almost like purified afterwards like that. I think there are, there are experiential ways in which that’s true, but it’s also true on a, you know, a, a more metaphysical level. I mean, that’s sort of going back to what I was talking about earlier. That’s what I was so scared of when I was a kid. (42m 23s): I had this sense that if I cried, other people would know this thing about me, that it would reveal parts of myself that I was not ready to tell them or tell me. And while that can be scary, it’s also this beautiful opportunity. And it’s interesting, I, I just finished, I got, I had the, the great fortune of getting to, to read Shea’s book before it, it is out in the world, but you should absolutely pre-order it this beautiful, beautiful book about masculinity. And it was so interesting reading the way that you talk about masculinity. ’cause it was bringing up so many of these forces. (43m 3s): For me it’s, you know, you frame the book as this journey of, you know, always knowing that you are a man and sort of finding your way into understanding masculinity for yourself and understanding what that means culturally. And I found myself reading it from this sort of opposite perspective of someone who has never felt at home in masculinity, who is, you know, a assigned male and is, you know, relatively masked in my presentation. And so it gets read by the world as, as male in a lot of ways, but it’s always been deeply uncomfortable in groups of men has never felt comfortable with, you know, I always joke with, you know, queer friends that I identify as a tomboy. And I think that’s about, as about as close as I can sort of, you know, put a label to it. (43m 47s): But it was this, it was this really interesting, like, there’s so many of these social forces that sort of like get stuck inside of ourselves that we don’t have great language for that, you know, oftentimes, you know, I’ve been wrestling with these feelings for 35 years And I still don’t have good words to put around them, but there’s something about crying and these emotional, these kinds of emotional authenticity that in some ways can help affirm who we are before we even have the language to, you know, put a name on it. Or even if we never have words that feel exactly right, we can still feel right in our bodies in ways that transcend language. Yeah. It’s so, it’s so fascinating as you were talking about, you know, crying and, and masculinity. (44m 30s): Like my experience was I wasn’t able to cry until I started a transition and then as soon as I started to get more comfortable in my body and be in touch with my masculinity, I became a crier. Right. Like Hallmark commercials, whatever films like I am just, I’m like, I cry all the time. Yeah. And so it’s so interesting that that piece for me, right, it’s so tied into my masculinity, like the, the ease of which I cry Yeah. For me is very much centered in my identity, but I think it’s more about like being comfortable in myself, right. And being able to be vulnerable because that is a, it is a sharing of vulnerability. (45m 10s): Well it’s so interesting you say that because one of the comments I’ve I’ve gotten from a lot of particularly trans men is that when I’m fit on tour and, and things is that they used to be big criers until they went on tee and then all of a sudden they found, they found themselves unable to, to cry. And so there does actually seem to be some sort of hormonal link between, you know, estrogen, testosterone and tears. Like it’s, it’s not very clear in the research. There isn’t really good studies because nobody funds crying research ’cause crying is effeminate and not linked to things we can use for the military. And like why, why would we fund research about it then? So there’s not a whole lot, you know, really crystal clear picture of what exactly is happening. But there seems to be some sort of link between, you know, elevated le levels of testosterone and you know, a reduction in, you know, the number of tears that people cry. (45m 59s): But I think that what you were talking about is so interesting because I also think at the same time that that is true. There is a, an a simultaneous truth that if we do not feel comfortable in our bodies, it does not matter what the hormonal balances are like. We are not going to feel comfortable enough to weep that in some ways crying is this experience of oneness with, with who we are physically. And so I think the more that we can sort of cultivate this authentic and tender relationship with our own bodies, we learn so much of our, about ourselves and who we are and we can create different ways of, of feeling and being embodied. Even if we go through periods where for any number of reasons, we end up not crying. (46m 39s): ’cause I also never want to, you know, hear people when I’m talking about crying, have people who have a hard time crying hear me saying like, oh, like shame on you. Like that’s terrible. Like I, I people get enough of that from the world. I, I don’t need to add on to it. And that’s actually not what I’m trying to say. You know, people will often ask like, oh, should everybody be crying more? And I’m like, I dunno, maybe. But like, that’s not actually not what I, what I really want, what I encourage people to do is sort of be curious about their relationship to tears. You know, when do you feel comfortable crying? Why, you know, think about times in your life where you cried, but more frequently or less frequently, how did that situate you within the world? How did the world respond to that? (47m 19s): What were the lessons you learned from those kinds of relationships? Like these kinds of things. I think crying dredges up. And so, so to go back to your earlier question, you know, is crying queer. Yeah. I think there is something radically unstable about crying in a way that, that is deeply queer. And I think that’s partly why, you know, I have a whole chapter in the, in the book on Crying and Queerness And I, I talk a lot about, you know, the ways that, for example, movements like Act Up used Public Grief as a way to galvanize political action, you know, to tie together a lot of the threats we’ve been talking about today. But, you know, there’s, you know, the, for folks who are, who are too young to, to, I mean, I, I was not alive so, or or barely alive, so I’m, I am counting myself in the, in folks too young to, to physically remember, you know, act Up was a, an organization in the eighties and that was founded in the eighties and nineties that was really marshaling around the Reagan administration and subsequent Bush administration’s lack of response to the AIDS crisis. (48m 22s): And one of the really public demonstrations that activists engaged in repeatedly were these public funerals where they would carry the bodies of their friends who had died through the streets. There was a very public action where folks from all over the country brought ashes of people who had died and scattered them on the White House lawn and wept. And I interview people who were there at that and they talk about that, that link between tears and action, but between crying over the way that the world is as a proclamation of the way that the world might be. And so there’s something deeply queer about that too. (49m 4s): Yeah. I, for folks who haven’t seen that, we actually have a clip of this on our website at Queer Theology dot com slash ashes. I think it’s so, it’s so powerful And I, I go off a whole tangent about how that was like, that was part of my Queer Theology journey in terms of like seeing faith and queerness And I was like, oh, like this is, this is a conversation another day, but I was like, this is like Palm Sunday, right? Like yeah, this is what it means to like put your, like your faith in action and oh God, it’s so powerful. Deeply liturgical. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. And I, this is, you’re leading me right into my next question, which is like, you know, we’re in, we’re in a world where there’s a lot happening where, you know, we’ve mentioned we’re recording this before the election, so there’s lots of anxiety around that. (49m 47s): Too Much happening, happening all over the Place. Yeah. Yeah. We’re in the midst of climate collapse. Right. And, And I think that often people’s response is to head right towards Rage and often like a very righteous Rage. Yeah. Right. But I think one of your points is that, that we need to also make room and space for Grief too. And I’m wondering if you can just share a little bit about why that is and, and how maybe Rage and Grief go together if there’s a way to balance them. And I guess like along with that, not to add too many things into one question, but like, is there, there, is there a risk of like getting stuck in a place of Grief, right? (50m 31s): Like, can there be too many tears? Yeah. These are, these are great questions. I dunno what you do with all of this. Yeah. I mean, one of the things, you know, to, to stick in that, that chapter where I’m interviewing folks from Act Up, one of the things I heard over and over again and Act Up was a place where there was all a, a whole lot of righteous anger on display. Yeah. Regularly. And it was interesting talking to some of the folks who I was interviewing saying like, yes. And that, like, that is in some ways a lot of the public recollection of Act Up. And that was absolutely there and an essential part of, of how folks were fighting for change, for dignity, for recognition, and also folks who share these beautiful stories of tenderness and Grief and the way that folks held each other in the midst of, yes, you just went to a protest, but you also just heard that another friend of yours had, you know, tested positive like that. (51m 30s): It couldn’t be one or the other. I think that, you know, as someone who’s been involved in, you know, organizing work in, in various capacities for, I I guess a while now, years, years creep up on you, staying in the anger place exclusively is unsustainable. That doesn’t mean that I don’t feel angry. Like who, boy do I feel angry? Who, boy do I feel angry right now? But I think part of what it means to be human is to access a full spectrum of emotional life. (52m 11s): And so Grief becomes also this way of, of, of naming loss. You know, it’s, it’s become a, a little cliche at this point, but I I don’t think it can ever be mentioned enough that Grief, the act of Grief is in some ways a proclamation of love that we grieve because we love something deeply. And so giving ourselves that space to grieve is a way of naming the magnitude of what is on the line and what we are losing. You know, think talking about the climate crisis, I’ve, I’ve done a few lectures now explicitly on climate Grief that folks have invited me to give. (52m 55s): And it’s a question I hear a lot because I, it’s something that I think is inside of a lot of people’s bodies that like, even if we do all of the things that we should be doing right now, which we are not doing, even even in the, the imaginary world where politicians actually start to do something now, we are still going to be moving through all kinds of unpreventable Grief and loss. And so if, if we ignore that or we refuse to sit with it, we’re actually not being honest about what we’re moving through collectively. And we don’t give ourselves the space to build those kinds of interconnected ties. (53m 40s): ’cause one of the other things that is, you know, anger is, is great and righteous and has its place, it’s also phrase social fabric in ways that sometime are really important. Sometimes things are ossified that need to be frayed or, or shattered or broken. And if we just are in this place of constantly breaking things down, we don’t actually get to a place where we can start to build new things. And I think the Grief becomes this really fertile place where we can talk about what we love, what we want to invest in, the kinds of things that, that nurture life. You know, that that literal metaphor of tears falling and watering something new feels really important and salient in this moment of how can we grieve in ways that move us closer to the kind of world that we deserve. (54m 38s): And what’s, you know, to sort of answer your last question there about, you know, is there ever a time where we get stuck in, in Grief or we get Yeah, yeah. Like we should not sit and just like cry every day, all day on, on the ground. Like that’s, you’re not particularly conducive to getting things done, you know? And that’s true of crying. I I think sometimes we don’t cry in part, especially for those of us who cry more frequently. ’cause you’re like, not today I have, have things I need to do. Like today is not, it’s not a crying day. Like, I need to stop weeping. I need to do, I have like a whole list of stuff that needs to happen and like, I can’t just this weekend. Yeah. Like I can’t just be crying for two hours right now. I got like stuff, but it needs to get done. (55m 19s): And so yeah, there’s a degree to which if we are always just perennially in this sort of solipsistic place of just weeping in a circular pattern that just, you know, ends up sort of being weeping about weeping. Yeah. That’s not great. And I think also sometimes people need to go through that season to get to a place where they can find balance between like their various emotions because the opposite isn’t great either. The sort of anger that feeds on itself and becomes more deeply entrenched. You know, I I think that there, you know, are, are lots of folks who very righteous anger over the, over the course of decades turns into a place where all of a sudden it sort of twists upon itself. (56m 1s): And then you end up with, you know, all kinds of unintended ramifications where people become kind of toxic as a product of having just stewed in that anger place for so long. And again, I don’t wanna, you know, I’m not trying to like demonize anybody. I think there’s so many different ways that, you know, folks can get stuck in that in ways beyond, you know, their own agency or volition. So many times that’s not a thing that somebody chooses, is just the way that, you know, their life exists in friction with the world. But, you know, as much as we are able to consciously and intentionally shape our own emotional lives, I think trying to find balance between these various forces and knowing that like there is, there is holiness and all of it. (56m 41s): And unless we are able to access the fullness of our humanity, you know, what we’d say in like the, you know, the Abrahamic traditions of, you know, that, that the mago de that, that being made in the image of God, you know, that image of God is wr large across all of these things. It’s not just one of them. And so, you know, that righteous anger is part of the image of God, but so too is that Grief. And if we want to be, be faithful, and if we wanna live sustainably, we need some sort of balance that allows us to hold all of these things in tension. (57m 23s): Amen and amen. Or we could, I, I could talk about this topic all day, every day. If people want to find you and your work, where is the best way for them to connect with you? Yeah, you can find me online@benjaminjperry.com. My book is Cry comma Baby. Why? Our Tears Matter. You can get it wherever books are sold. I narrated the audio book, if you’re an audio book person, it’s on Audible. And then you can find me at Faithfully BP on Twitter and Instagram, although I’m using social media less these days. So you, you go give me a follow, but know that I’m not always, I’m not always on there. (58m 5s): Awesome. And we love to close by asking what’s one thing that’s been bringing you joy lately? Last Sunday, I went to a folk song circle here in May, And I showed up at the, the Steam and Sail Power Museum of all places. And there were, I love it, you know, 15, 20 folks, mostly like in their sixties, seventies and eighties, some younger folks, but like all playing different instruments, banjo, guitar, fiddle, and singing old folk songs. And it was healing in ways that I did not even know I needed. (58m 46s): Just hearing these songs that were being passed, you know, a lot of the songs that these folks had heard as children that they are now singing and, and sharing with me that kind of enduring liturgy, that, that intergenerational thread that gets passed through music is a place where I find deep joy and tenderness. There’s, there’s something beautiful about music that helps us invite different ways of, again, being in our bodies, being in relationship with one another and proclaims the possibility of, of hope in a fractured world. Thank you so much for being here. I, I think folks are really gonna resonate with and appreciate this conversation, so thanks for having it. (59m 30s): My pleasure. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, Fort Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Cry it Out with Rev. Ben Perry appeared first on Queer Theology.

We delve into the complex interplay between church teachings, gender identity, and masculinity. As we explore the subtle (or not so subtle!) messages received in church environments regarding gender roles, we look at the impact of gender segregation and the challenges of navigating masculinity in a world filled with conflicting expectations. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” comes out April 15, so this conversation emphasizes the importance of redefining masculinity and gender identity. We are advocating for a more inclusive understanding of gender that allows for personal expression and self-discovery not confined, or defined, by Christian ideas of what are masculine or feminine.   Takeaways Messages about gender in church are often subtle and sneaky. Gender segregation in church settings reinforces patriarchal structures. Navigating masculinity involves conflicting societal expectations. The solution to masculinity isn’t to double down on traditional roles. Self-discovery in gender identity is a personal journey. Trans experiences can teach valuable lessons about masculinity. Gender expression should be intentional and authentic. It’s important to hold gender identities loosely and explore them. Conversations about gender should be inclusive and open-ended. The journey of understanding gender is ongoing and evolving.   Chapters (04:25) The Impact of Gender Segregation (10:38) Navigating Masculinity and Expectations   (18:24) Redefining Masculinity and Gender Identity   (26:41) The Journey of Self-Discovery and Gender Expression     Resources: Order Shannon’s new book, No One Taught Me How to Be a Man Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we are gonna be talking about church and theology and gender. So exciting, exciting things. We’re getting ready for the release of my new book. No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, but a trans man’s experience reveals about masculinity. (50s): It comes out in just two weeks from when we’re recording this on April 15th. So it, it’s available for pre-order now if you wanna get that. And so we thought it would be a good time to talk about church and gender and all of those fun things. So Brian, I’m curious for you, like when you think about church and gender, especially growing up, what kind of messages did you get? I, I, I feel like I know your ans my your answer to this of like, the messages that you got at home were very different from the messages that you got at church. Yeah. And so I wonder if you could just talk about that a little Bit. Well, I think the messages I got at church were subtle and sneaky. (1m 32s): It wasn’t until, I don’t know, when I was maybe like in high school or college that my mom pointed out to me. Oh yeah. Like they start segregating Sunday school by gender starting in fifth grade. And from that point on, boys are never taught by women. Like, and the, in the group, in the groups, in the combined group settings, like a man is always teaching. And then when you have like your breakouts, it’s like men lead the men’s, the boys groups and women lead the, the girls groups. And it had just like, not occurred to me that part of the reason for that was to keep women from teaching even like 13-year-old boys. (2m 19s): Yeah. I just as growing up thought like, oh, like, it’s like fun to be with the other boys, like boys and boys together and girls and girls together. Like, that’s just like how it is. Even though as like a closeted gay boy, I had close friendships with people who were girls. And so like, but I, I just like, I, I never questioned what function, like gender segregated classes or small groups might have, other than it being just sort of like a positive thing. And my mom was like, oh yeah, that’s like definitely part of fourth, this theology that like, women can’t teach men including teenage boys. And that just sort of like blew my mind. (3m 0s): And I think that like had she not pointed that out to me, I might not have ever stopped to even think about that. Right. And I know that, like, obviously I know that sexism is a thing, but like that particular way of like the ways in which small groups Sunday schools were like leveraged subtly in, in service of like the patriarchy just totally, totally slipped my, slipped my view. And so then I, I think that that, that was sort of like my church’s approach was like a very sort of like show don’t tell. They never outright said women can’t be trusted. They’re the lesser stacks, but they definitely like the ways in which they talked about men or women in terms of like nurturing and caring and the family and men being strong and leaders and protectors. (3m 55s): It was all this sort of like subtle reinforcement that like, definitely like wheeled its way into us, but without having to ever say like, men should be this way and, and women should be this way. And, and one is better than the other. But like the message that you walk away with is like, well, I never saw a woman preach before. Right. Like, but I, but I did, like, I, like Susan Tawa was like the, I don’t know what her title was, but like, she like helped with music and like, she would kind of talk like she was around and like, I had, like, I had relationships with female leaders, whether they were staff people or like college volunteers, but they were always like, upon reflection, like informal leader mentorship relationships, just ’cause I like gravitated towards those people. (4m 44s): They like didn’t actually have any authority over me and definitely weren’t in any sort of like decision making capacity in the organization. And so that’s just like a, a snapshot of the messages that I got from church. Yeah. And I imagine too that because there was so much gender segregated space, you’re also getting messages about gender simply by being segregated. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like yeah, like that, that is also the sneaky kind of influence too. And it, it, it feels all like, like it is true, right? That sexual orientation and gender and gender identity are like two separate things. (5m 27s): Like, and also they’re very much like wrapped up in one another that a lot of the ways in which my, like gayness or bisexuality is policed is around gendered expectations. Right. Like, I’m not like being a man in the correct way. And a lot of the ways in which that, like, that gets seen or things get processed is like via my gendered relationships with other genders. Right. Like I, I remember there was this, we took this, we rode our bikes from, from Maryland to North Carolina one summer, And I just like was friends with a lot of the girls. I would like ride ride my bike with a group of like four girls and one other guy maybe. And I remember I was at one point like sort of like lounging on a girl in the hotel, like on our last like few days in North Carolina. (6m 14s): And, And I don’t know if like the, the youth director said this to me or said this to someone about me or said it to my parents, but like, somehow it got back to me that like, someone had called me like a Casanova. ’cause I was like always with the girls And I was like, I’m just a gay boy. Like, like, but like the fact that I was like spending time with girls, like could, in this world you could only be read through like the lens of like, ladies man, which was just like fa fascinating. Yeah. I’m, I as you’re saying that, right? Like, I’m remembering my summer mission trip from hell that I talked about in, in at length and in the margins. (6m 56s): Right. And there was, I also got in trouble for hanging out primarily with the girls because I was violating gender expectations. Yeah. Right. Like, because I was visibly gender nonconforming. Something about me hanging out with the girls violated the norms of that community, even though technically I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Right. Like, I, I wasn’t hanging out with the boys, which was also frowned upon. Yeah. Right. So I, I I, And I share that because like, I, I think that this is why, this is why like gender and evangelical spaces is so fucked up, right. (7m 41s): Because it’s so, it’s almost impossible to do it. Right? Yes. I I I have a story about that also. Yeah. No matter who you are, right. Like the, you there is always these like bizarre rules that you find yourself violating without intending to because like the rules aren’t real. Yeah. Right. And they’re not, they’re, they’re like made up in some white cis man’s head Right. Of like what he thinks masculinity and femininity should look like. And so that then gets enforced on everyone else. Like, even though it’s not even real for cis folks. Yeah. And I think that that’s what’s so interesting And I it varies from person to person, right. (8m 26s): Like, like leader to leader. Because I remember in, in seventh through eighth grade, I had a girlfriend at church and we were like together a lot. I mean, we only ever, it was months before we made out. We had our first kiss at, at church camp. But like I was, I don’t know what that was doing. I was like, probably not all that into her, but like, we were at least like holding hands and had our arms around each other a lot. And I remember in like seventh or eighth grade, like once or twice, people making comments about sort of like us being like attached at the hip. And it, it was like, it was like said in kind of like a bad way. Like we were spending like too much time together or we were like too close or we were like too physically affectionate with one another and like, maybe that was like starting to border on like sinful or lustful or something. (9m 12s): But then like fast forward a few years, I’m on this bike trip and I’m like laying on a girl’s lap and that a different leader is telling is calling me like a Casanova in a positive way. And I, I I, in hindsight, I wonder if like in seventh or eighth grade, they hadn’t clocked that I was queer yet. And so being too sexual was like a bad thing. But by like 10th grade they were starting to wonder maybe I was queer. And so me being close with a woman, they wanted to sort of like Yeah. Contextualize that in sort of a like, oh, this must be romance. We’re gonna positively reward this behavior because we want, we want you to say like, oh, you can do it like you with these ladies. (9m 55s): And like Yeah. It’s just so, ugh. I was 14. Like, get off my back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I, I think like you, I grew up in a church that like talked about gender all the time without ever talking about gender. Right. And so it was also like super sneaky and super, you know, under the radar did lots and lots of things that were gender segregated. And like as a trans kid who didn’t have language for that, I just remember always feeling out of place. Right? Yeah. Because I was expected to be in certain spaces, but then I would get in those spaces and be like, I dunno what to do in this space. (10m 36s): Like, I’m deeply uncomfortable at the 17th baby shower of the year for, you know, 20 something year olds. Like, can I please go play foosball with the boys? But, and, and then, and you know, lots of things about like leadership. There were a lot of conversations about leadership, I think especially because I was a kid that was loud and upfront and very much gravitated toward the leadership role. And I do, like, I will give my youth pastor credit, like he gave me a lot of leeway and space to be myself And I think protected me from some folks who did not want me doing those things. Yeah. (11m 16s): But I definitely also got the sense of like, yes, you can do that because you are doing music or drama or whatever less. So when you’re doing other things though though, I, I do remember when I came, I did an internship at the church that I grew up in my late in my, maybe my sophomore year of college because I was studying youth ministry and in my youth ministry classes at college, I, so I’m getting a degree in youth ministry. And every single year in almost all of the classes, they would say to the people that they assumed were women in these classes. You can get this degree, but you can never be a youth pastor. (11m 57s): So you’re letting me get a degree in youth ministry while telling me I can never use second degree. Oh my god. I’m like, oh, so you’ll take my money. But anyway, so I had to do an internship and so I went back to the church that I grew up in And I remember they let me like lead, we went on a beach retreat and they like, let me lead all of the bible study sessions for kids of like all genders. But then I got back to college And I tried to tell my, my advisors like what I had done over my summer and a, they like ignored all of the stuff that I had done and then asked me what I wanted to do when I graduated. And I was telling them like, I’m feeling called to doing like theater and, and using whatever. (12m 43s): And they’re like, oh, you know, you should really work with children. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to work with children. And they were like, no, but like that’s really you, like you should work with kids. And I was like, I don’t think you’ve ever seen me work with kids. No one wants me working with children. It turns out that I did actually then work with children quite a bit Yeah. In my career. But, but it was this sense of like, I I, I remember really distinctly standing in front of them saying like, this is what I feel called to. And them just ignoring that because they had in their mind of like what women did quote unquote. Yeah. And again, it was like really sneaky. You know, I, I’m thinking about like, when I was, when I was doing research for my book, I read John Eldridges Wild at Heart, which now has had its 20th anniversary. (13m 34s): It has a fancy new updated edition with even more homophobia in trans great than the original. But you know what I was so struck by in this book, you know, which has sold like 20 million copies, right? So many churches have, have done book studies around this book is that I think there are some ways that Eldridge like really names the problem of that a lot of men experience of like being bored and angry and disconnected and not knowing why. And so I was reading that and I’m like, yeah, this is great. And then he’s, his solution is like, I don’t know, go camp a lot and buy a ceremonial braveheart sword and do more dude stuff. (14m 22s): Yeah. And like that will fix you. And I just, I, I remember, you know, reading that and thinking like, how depressing would it be if you were already struggling to read this book and feel seen? And then to have the solution be like, probably the thing that you’ve already tried to do that didn’t work. Right? Yeah. Like, you know, you’re, you’ve already tried to like be a better leader in your household. I’m using air quotes or like be more spiritual or like do more dude stuff. And like that hasn’t fixed it. And so now you’re reading this book that then says, because that hasn’t fixed it, you are like failing at masculinity and you’re probably sinning too. (15m 5s): Like, it’s just such a Yeah. It’s bad for men and it’s bad for like everyone that men interact with because then like no wonder they’re angry. Yeah. I, I’ve been thinking a lot because of your book and its title, No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, like, who taught me how to be a man. And like the message I received around masculinity growing up. And I remember being like, feeling very adrift. Like there were these messages that I was getting from pop culture that was like, you should be suave and you should be like sexually active and you should be macho. And then I was getting these messages from church that were like, you should be chased and you should be like a leader, but in sort of a like servant leader humble sort of way. (15m 52s): And I was like, which like, you should be like not having any sex. You should be having lots of sex. I’m like, which one is it? And, and, And I will pre pre preface this by saying like, my dad And I have like a great relationship now, but like growing up I like didn’t like, he had like a set of things that he liked to do probably that he did with his dad. Like he fished and he played football. And so like if I was like willing to do one of those things, like we could spend quality time together, but like he didn’t know how to talk to me about like my interests. He definitely didn’t know how to talk about either of our interior worlds. Like, I even remember being like, oh, I’m like starting to like grow facial hair. Like I don’t know what to do with this. Like, I think somebody just like started stealing my dad’s disposable razors and like shaving. (16m 35s): I mean, I, I have very fine facial hair, not very much of it. So I could get away with just sort of like shaving in the shower without any shaving lotion. And then at some point, my grandma bless her heart one year for Christmas, she gave every single grandkid a razor. So like my cousin who was like pre like, did not have any facial hair and like my other, my youngest cousin and then my oldest cousin, like, had been shaving for years and years and years and probably had his own razor. Like we all got razors. And so now I was like, oh, like now I have a razor. And so like maybe at that point I started like getting my own shaving cream, but there was like a long, like many years where I was just sort of like secretly shaving, which like feels like I don’t, like why was I doing that? Like why, like, did, did Noah notice? (17m 16s): Like, it was just like weird, you know? And in my dad’s defense, I don’t think he had a very great relationship with his dad. Like his dad was also just sort of like macho. And, and so it’s, it’s I And I, And I think in the nineties and two thousands, like the message was like, well that makes you gay. Like if you don’t have a good relationship with your dad, it makes you gay. But like, I know a lot of people in the nineties who didn’t have good relationships with their dads. But also like the, the thing that has like made my dad And I have like an incredible relationship now is like us being able to like, talk about things beyond the surface level and for him to like show up and support me in like, all areas of my life and for him to like grow a little and me to grow a little. (18m 1s): And like the funny thing is now like, because we have such a good relationship, like I, I like want to go fishing with him sometimes in a way that, like when I was a kid, I just absolutely hated it. But I mean also I’m a, you know, I’m maybe more more mature now, but it’s like, because we had this sort of like mutual relationship, like it, it allows us to sort of like see each other. And so like the, the solution to like the problems of like masculinity is not to like double down on all of the things that cause the problems. Like Yeah. Harshness of becoming an island onto yourself. Not like, not being vulnerable, not collaborating. Like we, that’s just like crazy. Like all the things that cause the problems that are being proposed as solutions. (18m 41s): And I’m not like any of those queer now, but I have like a great relationship with my dad and it’s not at all because like we got a sword or like went on a men’s retreat, you know, or like, he like taught me how to read the Bible, like disciples and whatever that that means. It’s like, ’cause we care about each other and we figured out how to talk about that and we like show up for each other. Yeah. Yeah. I I think that you’re right, like the thing that I’m really advocating for in the book is like not a one size fits all depiction of masculinity, but like an opening up of like what masculinity means and can look like, because I think that that’s what’s actually healthier for folks. Yeah. Right. (19m 21s): And I think too that like, I don’t know, as someone who very much identifies as a man, I also think the solution isn’t, And I know that this is controversial in some queer spaces, like the solution also isn’t to like abolish gender, right? Yeah. Like I, I personally believe that there are always gonna be people that identify within the binary somehow, and that that’s not a bad thing, right? That, but opening up like what that means and what that looks like and how we can embody and inhabit that while also paying attention to like how we show up for people of other genders. Like that’s where the real work is. And as someone who like very much had to fight for my masculinity and to claim my identity, like I, I get really like a little crabby when people are like, you shouldn’t exist. (20m 10s): Like, we should just get rid of gender entirely. And it’s like, no, actually, like my gender actually matters quite a bit to me. And I really had to work to figure out what it means to me and how to like carry it well and hopefully in a way that like doesn’t do harm to people of other genders. And I think that there’s a lot of people that at least feel, if not comfortable, they feel like, oh, like this is a word that does, describes me, right? That this is a word that I inhabit, whether that’s masculine or feminine or man or woman. And obviously of course there are also lots of people for whom those words don’t feel right. But yeah, I I I think it’s, it’s complicated to say like, what, what does this and what can this look Like? (20m 56s): Yeah. And I mean, I feel like I have bit of a broken record here, but I just feel like trans folks in general and like trans guys more specifically, and you even more specifically have like, taught me so much about like, I like what it means to be a man, but also like what it means to be a person. Like what it means to have a body, what it means to think like critically about open-heartedly about gender. Like I, I, one of my, my first roommate in New York and one of my best friends how we met, like came out as trans while we were living together. And like then like via him, I just ended up with tons of trans guy friends and going to the a trans health conference and really sort of like thinking critically about gender and my gender and my body and like what gender affirming care looks like for trans folks and what gender affirming care looks like for cis folks and like gender euphoria and like I is wearing a dress or painting my nails, like giving myself and like wearing makeup, like giving myself permission to experiment with those things. (21m 59s): But also like, not necessarily having those things necessarily mean that I am a woman or that those parts like have to are like inherently feminine, right? Like I can be a man who wears makeup, a man who with painted nails. Yeah. Like, I think that there’s a real gift there to sort of complicating our conversations around gender, you know, and, and you talked about sort of like, there are always gonna be, you think like some people who fit within the binary And I think even calling trans guys or trans women sort of like binary, binary trans folks, right? Like, I don’t know that even that feels a little reductive that like, like if gender is a spectrum, right? (22m 39s): Like people exist on all points of that spectrum and just because someone identifies as a man and not non-binary, just because someone wears in our culture traditionally masculine clothes, like also like, doesn’t necessarily even, you know, that person is like, believes that gender is a binary or in all aspects of your, their lives as like ascribed to the gender binary, right? Like I, you know, I think about you, you’re someone who is like definitely a man, right? And also, like, you’re kind and you’re thoughtful and you’re creative and like sometimes you’re grumpy, but also there’s like a real softness to you. And I think a, those are things that are like often not ascribed to like men in our patriarchal culture. (23m 24s): And also like why shouldn’t they be male traits? And there is like, yeah, it doesn’t make you, you less of a man or those traits less masculine, but it just is sort of like a whole big picture, right? And I wanna like, take all of it into consideration. And I, what I appreciate from you and many of the trans folks that I have learned from is like, we don’t have to seed compassion to femininity and we don’t have to seed leadership to masculinity. And perhaps like some folks, and sometimes I’ve wondered like, am I non-binary or am I a gender or gender queer? Like you can have a constellation of different traits and some like, those could maybe even be separate from how you like, identify inwardly. (24m 8s): And that like gender is like so much richer than like a checkbox. And like there’s like some real value in like thinking critically about your own gender. And I will say like, there’s, I’m so excited about your book because like as a cis person, our four cis people are for people who have like mostly thought of themselves as cis or like are unsure. There’s like some real power in like learning about gender or hearing about gender and generally masculinity specifically, like from a trans person that I like, I’m thinking about being at the Philly Trans Health Conference in like circa 2009 and being like out to dinner with like 12 people and being like the only cis guy there. (24m 52s): And just sort of like the different types of conversations that get had in a, in a room full of trans people and one in one cis person. Right. Or to, or there were times where we were like, I’m pretty sure people just like assumed that I was trans because there just like, that weren’t many cis guys at the trans health conference. And So just sort of like, what does it mean, like to have people assume that you’re trans and then to like figure out how to navigate that in a respectful way, like in an honest way, but also like not in a defensive way and like what does it mean to be trans? And like what would that mean? Most people can’t like transport themselves into a room of 12 trans folks and be the el cis person there. And so I think like your book is a great moment, like a great learning opportunity for folks to sort of like, see it through, like to see the world and to see gender and to see masculinity through this sort of specific lens that I think has a really universal application. (25m 46s): I know it’s been so meaning like the work of you and other trans folks has been so meaningful to me in my own sort of like gendered and embodied experience. Yeah. And I think that that’s like the biggest thing that I hope that this book does for folks is like, just offers the opportunity to reflect. Yeah. Right? Because I think that, I’ve said this before, but like one of the great gifts of of being trans is that you get to be intentional about how you inhabit and embody your gender. Like, because nothing is assumed and for me, like no one wants me to be a man. Yeah. And so I get to like be whatever kind of man I want because like, it doesn’t really matter, right? (26m 29s): Like, yeah, people don’t expect me to be in that space anyway, so like, I’m just gonna show up how I wanna show up. But I think that that’s been a real gift of, of saying like, oh, I can be this thing without having to like, to take on any of the things that other people say I have to take on And I can just like be myself. And, And I will say like, that has gotten significantly easier now that I primarily, you know, quote unquote pass as a, as a cis person, like that was definitely harder. It was harder to like inhabit myself in my fullness when I was still early in transition and constantly being mistaken for a gender I didn’t identify as, like, that was a lot harder. (27m 15s): But now that I’ve moved past that stage, it’s like I just don’t worry now, right? Like, I don’t worry if someone’s gonna think I’m effeminate or gay or whatever, like, that doesn’t bother me. But I wanna inhabit and embody my gender in a way that feels the most comfortable to me. And I, and that’s what I want for everyone, right? Like, I want everyone to be able to walk into a room and feel like they’re not policing their own gestures, that they’re not worrying about how they look or how they’re moving their hands or what their voice sounds like, right? Like that, that they can just show up and be seen as who they are and be welcomed in those spaces. And I think that what it takes to get there is for all of us to, to approach gender with more intention, and especially for men to approach gender with more intention. (28m 7s): Yeah. I’m, I think, I think there’s like something really wholly about the like reflecting and the like questioning and the, like, sitting in the uncertainty of it all. I mean, I, I know that like when I found the word queer, found the word bisexual, right? It like, I was like, oh, that’s like something that like makes sense to me. That’s just feels like it describes who I am. That is a way, like way by which I can find other people and like it, but even, even in that, right? Like, I don’t know, I’m like technically bisexual, but sometimes, like the word gay feels like more accurate. Sometimes the word queer feels more accurate, right? Like, so I kinda like hold all those labels loosely. (28m 49s): And I feel like with gender, like I, I I hold things even more loosely that like, am I cis? Am I, am I trans? Am I a gender? Am I gender queer? Am I non-binary? Like, for me at least feels like, like coming to a hard and fast like decision around like an ident like a gendered identity that is right for me feels less important to me as does sort of like holding it all kind of lightly and asking questions and experimenting and trying things on and seeing like, if I do this, how does that feel? How do, like, if I do that, how does that feel? How can I, what qualities in people in general do I admire? (29m 32s): What qualities in men do I admire? What qualities in women do I admire? What qualities in gender queer folks do I admire? What do I wanna sort of try on for myself? And sort of existing in sort of like a state of always becoming rather than feeling like I have arrived. And you know, there’s, there’s this, I know, I forget who said it, I think it was a Jewish, a queer Jewish per person was like, you know, we, we like say there’s a blessing in Judaism for, for bread, and it’s like, blessed are you, Adam And I are God sovereign of the universe who like brings forth bread from the earth. But like, obviously like bread doesn’t like literally come from the earth where it’s like wheat and flour and you have to, you have to like make the bread. (30m 17s): And there’s this, there’s this saying of like, it’s a reminder that like we join in the co-creation of creation like with God And I, And I know you’ve talked about like your transness being this sort of like, you take an active part in co-creating yourself and your gender and your body with God. And that is something that I have like taken on for myself in a less extreme way. I’m not like trans, I’m not on hormones, I’m on medication to keep my hair from falling out, which is like, you know, gender affirming care in its own way. But like, there’s something of this sort of like active ongoing process of like creating ourselves and creating ourselves a new, and the person that I am today is different than the person that I was a year ago and five years ago and 10 years ago. (31m 0s): And like, that’s like really cool and exciting And I don’t know who I will be in 10 years from now, but I want to get there with some intentionality. And I feel like the questions that you raise in this book are gonna help me, help, help me do that. I hope so, I, I hope that this book becomes an, an invitation to deeper conversation for folks, right? That it’s, it becomes a, that it’s a starting point, not a, not another manual of like ceremonial swords and parties that instead it’s like a, hey, how do we, how do we enter into these conversations? Yeah. So if folks wanna get this, it comes out officially April 15th, Amazon in particular, and some other booksellers in general sometimes send things out early. (31m 46s): So if you pre-order it, you might actually get it earlier. So hop on there now. You can get it anywhere books are sold. If you go to Queer Theology dot com slash books, it’ll be right at the top of that page. And there’s links to Bookshop and Barnes and Noble and Amazon to help you find those links quickly. But I know we’ve said this before, but pre-sales really help with authors in general. In particular, like new authors, newer authors, authors with marginalized identities to let the publisher know, to let potential booksellers know, like, this is a book that matters. These are stories that matter. These are types of authors that people are like interested in, in taking seriously. And like fortunately is a business, right? And so like, like, yeah, like queer authors get asked to write books because other queer authors sell books. (32m 30s): And so a think that this book is gonna be really exciting for everyone who is a man or is in love with a man, or knows a man who has had to work with a man. It would probably be more useful for, for men and masculine folks, but I think really for anyone. And also an added bonus of supporting you in particular and queer and trans authors in general. So Queer Theology dot com slash books to find all the links to No One Taught Me How to Be a Man, which comes out on April 15th. And if you happen to be in Minneapolis or thereabouts on April 14th, so the day before it officially releases, I’m gonna be having a launch party at Moon Palace books in Minneapolis. (33m 9s): You’ll be able to get the book a day early and I’ll be signing, there’s gonna be some special guests and some performances. It’s gonna be a really fun event. So if you wanna come to that Moon Palace books on April 14th and masks are still required at Moon Palace, so tuck a mask in your pocket and come on out. It’s gonna be really fun. Awesome. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Failing At Gender appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re joined by author Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew (@elizabethjarrettandrew) on the podcast this week. Elizabeth is the author of “Swinging on the Garden Gate: A Memoir of Bisexuality & Spirit” and the chapbook, “A Map to Mercy,” due out in 2025. She is also the author of three books on writing. She is a founding member of The Eye of the Heart Center for Creative Contemplation, where she teaches writing as a transformational practice and hosts an online writing community. In this engaging conversation, Elizabeth shares her journey as a queer contemplative Christian and how her spiritual path intertwines with her identity and creative work. She discusses the importance of spiritual direction in her personal growth, the practice of rewriting one’s narrative, and the role of creativity in spiritual exploration. Elizabeth emphasizes the value of community and rituals in tapping into creative energy, and offers insights on how anyone can approach writing as a spiritual practice, regardless of their perceived creative abilities. We totally agree with Elizabeth’s understanding that there is power in creativity and personal practices in fostering change in a complex world.   Takeaways Identifying as a queer contemplative Christian shapes my worldview. Coming out is a lifelong process of spiritual growth. Spiritual direction provides a safe space for exploration. Rewriting our narratives is essential for personal integrity. Creativity is a fundamental aspect of the spiritual journey. Rituals help connect with creative and spiritual energy. Writing can be a private, transformative practice. The process of writing is often more important than the product. Community support is vital for spiritual and creative growth. Sharing personal stories requires discernment and care. Be intentional about who you share your writing with. Writing is a process that requires multiple drafts. Our identities are multi-dimensional and complex. Revising our stories adds depth and richness. The journey of publishing can be challenging yet rewarding. Sexuality can be a sacred aspect of our identity. Faith and sexuality can coexist harmoniously. We are interconnected and part of a larger community. Creativity is essential in times of uncertainty. Personal practices can lead to meaningful change.   Chapters (03:18) Exploring Queerness and Spirituality (07:20) The Role of Spiritual Direction in Personal Growth (10:38) Rewriting Your Narrative: A Spiritual Practice (14:36) Creative Work as a Spiritual Journey (16:43) Rituals for Tapping into Creativity (19:27) Writing as a Spiritual Practice for Everyone (23:20) The Process of Sharing Your Story (30:42) Swinging on the Garden Gate: A Memoir of Identity (34:18) The Journey of Publishing and Reissuing a Memoir (39:08) Sexuality as a Seat of Sacred Knowing (42:06) Faith and Identity: Lessons from Bisexuality (45:00) The Next Horizons of Queerness and Faith (47:57) The Power of Creativity in Challenging Times   Resources: Learn more about Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew and her work at https://www.elizabethjarrettandrew.com/  https://www.spiritualmemoir.com/  Eye of the Heart Center for Creative Contemplation Elizabeth’s online writing community Be part of the workshop, The Politics of Jesus by joining the Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis Drug Revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Our guest today is Elizabeth Jarret. Andrew Elizabeth is the author of Swinging on the Garden Gate, A Memoir of Bisexuality and Spirit. Now, in its second edition, the novel, Hannah delivered a collection of personal essays on the threshold Home, hardwood and Holiness, the Chapbook, A Map to Mercy. (53s): Due out in 2025 and three books on writing, writing The Sacred Journey, the Art and Practice of Spiritual Memoir, living Revision, a Writer’s Craft, A Spiritual Practice Winner of the Silver Nautilus Award and the Release Finding Creativity and Freedom. After the writing is done, She is a founding member of The Eye of the Heart Center for Creative Contemplation, where she teaches writing as a transformational practice and hosts an online writing community. She’s a recipient of two Minnesota State Arts Board artists Fellowships, the Loft Career Initiative Grant, and is a Minnesota Book Awards finalist. She lives in Minneapolis with her wife, daughter, and two rambunctious cats. You can learn more about Elizabeth at Elizabeth jarret andrew.com and spiritual memoir.com. (1m 38s): You’re really gonna love this conversation, so let’s get to it. Welcome, Elizabeth. We are so happy to have you on the podcast today. Really looking forward to this conversation. I’m really grateful to be here. We love to start by asking, if you were at a queer cocktail party, how would you introduce yourself and your work? You know, we’ve already heard your kind of fancy official bio, but you know, how do you introduce yourself casually? Are there any other identities that are really important to you? Yeah, I would probably say that I’m a queer contemplative, queer contemplative Christian, identify as bi, but actually that kind of bisexual lens and my contemplative lens feel very much the same to me. (2m 31s): So it’s really about seeing the world non dually and practicing, you know, kind of, kind of this intentional practicing becoming, you know, like we come out, we come out in a big way as queer people, but I think of the contemplative practices coming out all lifelong and bringing out what’s within us. So yeah, I would say I am a queer contemplative Christian. We’re gonna talk a little bit more about in depth about your work and your books, but first I’m wondering if you’d be willing to share a little bit about your spiritual journey and how queerness has intersected with that. (3m 17s): Yeah, it’s been critical. So I was raised in a liberal United Methodist church by a loving family, and it was a dying congregation, so, you know, super small, racially diverse, financially strapped, and so every person who showed up on a Sunday morning was precious to them. In my late teens, early twenties, I began in college, I began exploring my sexual identity and really didn’t have words for it. (3m 58s): I knew that that something was not right with the story that I had told myself in my head about who I am, and it wasn’t matching up with the truth of my body and, and attractions. So I ended up doing two things, just kind of out of instinct. The first was putting myself into spiritual direction, because really I had the sense that I couldn’t grow in my spiritual dimension without addressing my sexuality. And, and so that safe listening space was really critical to my coming out. (4m 43s): And then the second thing that I did just instinctually was get myself to a reconciling United Methodist Church. Again, another really small congregation. I I had moved, I grew up in New York And I moved to Minneapolis. So the big irony of my coming out, or, or I should say the huge grace of my coming out was that one day after church, during adult ed at this, at this little United Methodist Church, they, they were already a reconciling congregation, so they were already overtly welcoming gays and lesbians, but they had a panel discussion to help them consider whether to also intentionally welcome trans and bi folks. (5m 27s): So after church, there was this panel of trans folks and a couple bisexual people who were speaking about their experiences and their faith. That was the first time that like the light bulb went off in my head, oh, I’m bisexual, so I am, I like one of the blessed people that church gave me language around my sexual identity. So from there, it was really a matter of I’m a writer, and so it was really a matter of rewriting my, my narrative. (6m 9s): You know, here’s this story that I told myself about who I was and the story that my parents assumed for me and my culture assumed for me, And I had to extract myself that from that and, and rewrite it. So I did a lot of that in spiritual direction. I did a lot of that in what became my first book, which is a memoir, but coming out. So I came out during joys and concerns at church, Love that. And, and coming out for me really was intricately connected to my, what I would then have called my, what I did call my relationship with God, that, that I had this sense of, you know, stepping into my own integrity and my own truth, aligned myself with the integrity and truth that I think really is the source of our life, a source of life and source of love. (7m 14s): And so, so coming out for me was the start of my spiritual journey. I’m, I’m so fascinated by the fact that you intuitively went to spiritual direction only because I, I feel like as a college student, I didn’t even know that that existed. So I’m, I’m, where was that in your kind of consciousness? Like how did you know to seek that out? Yeah. And and what did that do for you? How, how did that help unlock things for You? Yeah, I was actually outta college at that point. I think I was 22, 23, so still really young. And it was, again, through this church, this, this United Methodist church. (7m 55s): We were on retreat and this man by the name of Jim Dodge, who was a, oh, he was a retired United Methodist pastor in a, wh he’d been in a wheelchair his entire life. He was also trained as a spiritual director, and he had started a ministry doing spiritual direction with people on the streets. And so he was leading this retreat for us and offered to do, we brief one-on-ones with participants, and there was something about the words spiritual director, spiritual direction, or spiritual director. It just set my heart, like thumping, you know, I was just, I had never heard of anything like it before, but I think I, again, just intuited that I desperately needed direction, and I’ve since, you know, I’ve since kind of backed away from that term, because actually I think the spirit is the one directing and the, the person who sits with the spiritual directors had is really just kind of a, a mirror or a good question asker. (9m 1s): Yeah. But, you know, I think, so I’ve written my whole life, And I think what spiritual direction did for me was kind of create this human blank page where I could test my story, kind of write the rough draft of my story, and have loving open-ended questions be asked of me, such that I could listen more deeply. So, so in many ways, and, And I was very fortunate because I landed with a very good director right away, but in many ways, spiritual direction really functioned for me, like the blank page as a place to be messy and be heretical and cry a lot, and, you know, like, really question my beliefs about God and, and actually not believe, and, you know, like, it just was this permission giving space where, where I could grow. (10m 4s): Yeah. You, you’ve said a couple of times used the phrase like, rewriting your story or Rewriting Your Narrative, which I love. And we just did a, a journaling workshop literally called Rewrite Your Story, which is all about like how to do that. But I can imagine that there are some folks listening who are like, I don’t know what that even means. Like, how, what it, how do you do that? It, it sounds a little maybe wooey or, or, or fictitious, right? That you’re just like pretending to be something. And so I’m, I’m curious how you would, how you would talk about or explain this practice of rewriting your own narrative. (10m 48s): And I know that’s a really big question, but It’s a big question. But, you know, I think in some ways people who have done the hard work of coming out, or people who have done the hard work of, of being in recovery, we, we know what it means to rewrite your story because we’ve lived it, you know, it’s like there’s, there’s just one way of being in the world, and then you go through this really difficult process, but at the other end, you are living in the world in a different way. That that’s so, so, I, I think, I think to some extent, any of anyone who’s had major internal personal change knows the experience of rewriting your story, but, but the dimension that I think being a writer I can bring to that conversation is, and, and, and being a contemplative, is that we can be intentional about how about participating and how, how our stories get written. (11m 59s): So just to give you an example, I coach writers in book development, and lots of times when a writer puts a, puts down a first draft of their story, it’s kind of the story that they’ve told themselves. You know, it’s, it’s like, this is, this is who, you know, how I’ve understood my life. But over the course of writing it, all these insights come up, you know, like you realize all of these things that you didn’t know and all of these memories come up that you didn’t remember. And then you start seeing themes like, oh, this mirrors that. And, and there’s these patterns across my life that are really remarkable. (12m 41s): And then if you do the hard work of revising that story, you, you can take those themes and say, okay, well, I noticed that this theme cropped up here, here, and here, but it’s not here, but I know it should be, and so I can, I can add it here. So we then can like, find continuity and integrity in, in our stories simply by looking for it. That, that we didn’t know we held. Here’s, here’s another, here’s another good example. You know, lots of times when people are writing memoir, they just write a bunch of little fragments of, of memories, right? That, and that’s a great, that’s a great way to start. And then, then they’re like, well, how does this all fit together? (13m 24s): And at that point, we get to make choices, right? Like we can fit all those fragments together in a story that says, woe is me. I’ve been so neglected and hurt, and you know, I’ve had such a bad lot in life, and I’m gonna lick my wounds in this story. Or you can frame the story as, oh my goodness, look at all the, the people who came into my hard life to help me along. Or you could frame the story as how did I become who I am today, given where I started? You know? So there’s all these different ways that we can tell the same story, and as writers, we get to choose, right? (14m 7s): So, so then in the process of choosing one frame or another, we kind of live into the frame that we’ve chosen, which is just like miraculous. And it is kind of, but it’s a really beautiful process. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You know, so you’ve already started talking about the fact that you coach writers. You have several books out on writing and memoir, and specifically writing and even revising as A Spiritual Practice. And I’m wondering if you can just say a little bit more about specifically the intersections you find between creative work and spiritual practice. Yeah. (14m 48s): This is, this is the intersection that I just find infinitely mysterious and, and exciting. So I experience the spiritual dimension, the sacred dimension as, as creative. So, you know, I think that’s where with my coming out experience and kind of coming into myself, it essentially was this co-creative process where I was willing to, you know, with a lot of, having gone through a lot of anger and disappointment and, you know, loneliness, but willing to, to do that work, to be able to name who I am today, I was participating in what I understand to be kind of like this basic human spiritual thrust, which is to become more alive. (15m 54s): And so, so I think that the spiritual journey really is ultimately a creative journey that, that we get to participate in who we’re becoming, and we get to participate in who the, you know, what the world is becoming. And it’s relational, you know, it’s relationship relational with our bodies. It’s relational with our, our partners. And it’s definitely relational with the, the natural world. And, and with, with the sense of mystery or inspiration or, or life force or energy that’s kind of everywhere and kind of waiting for us to, to be open enough to to, to invited into our lives. (16m 43s): Do you have any particular ways that are rituals for you to tap into this creative or spiritual energy? Well, journaling, journaling’s a big one. I, you know, I usually start my morning with writing down my dreams. So that’s, that’s a direct way of listening to that mystery, because dreams are so peculiar and, and instructive and mysterious. And it’s not that I try to interpret my dreams necessarily, but just writing them down is a way of paying attention. And then also, you know, just checking in with myself in the morning. (17m 25s): I usually do a little bit of spiritual reading first thing in the morning, and then I do silent prayer practice. That’s, you know, it’s a lot like meditation. So those are, I light a lot of candles. And so, so that’s kind of the personal dimension, you know, as a, I’m also a very strong believer in community. I think that’s my, my Christian upbringing and that tiny dying church that kinda loved me into being, they has just really made me convicted, I guess, that, that we need each other in order to experience the spirits movement. (18m 13s): And so, you know, church is, has, is and has always been problematic for me. But, but I do attend church and, and my partner And I are raising our daughter and church, but honestly, it’s a circle of women, two other queer women, and a woman of color who’s straight, who we pray together weekly, and we’re working together, and we we’re sharing a vision for a creative community together. And that’s the place where I, I feel that that kind of bigger creative force where I’m part of a bigger movement. (18m 54s): So, so it’s that, you know, kind of gathering, listening, listening to the spirits movement and silent prayer, or sometimes we make art, sometimes we dance, and then also listening deeply to each other, you know, our personal stories and, and, you know, our longings. And it’s hard work. It’s, you know, it’s not, it’s not like it’s bliss, but community communicating. Oh, to me, that’s the word in church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, I’m, I know that there are some folks who are listening who are probably thinking, well, I’m not a writer, or, I don’t consider myself a creative person. (19m 38s): And so I’m wondering if you have any specific advice on like, how to start writing as A Spiritual Practice, especially for maybe someone who like doesn’t consider themselves already prone to writing or, or to being creative. Yeah. Well, I would first say that lots of times we have too narrow an idea of what creativity is. So cooking a good meal or, or, you know, initiating a great conversation or, or, you know, rearranging a room or, you know, there’s all sorts of ways to be creative starting a business. (20m 25s): So, so I think that creativity is really about kind of stepping forward and being willing to put your particular fingerprint on something beyond you. In terms of writing the, you know, we come to writing with so much baggage because it was a, a means of testing what we’ve learned in school, and we also assume that what goes down on the page is meant for an audience. And so, so it, we, I mean, I could go on and on about all of the incorrect assumptions that we have about writing. (21m 8s): You know, like we, we also have the incorrect assumption that like what we put down on the page, it has to be perfect somehow, or that, that it’s, that it’s somehow static when in fact, writing is fluid, it can always be changed. You know, we, it can always be kept private. I used to work with a writer who, a woman who really wanted to write, but was super stuck and, and just was terrified to put anything onto the page. And so we would sit together and write, and then we’d go out to the street and burn it, just because, because it’s like, you know, it is totally, the process is valuable. There’s another assumption we make about writing. (21m 48s): We assume that it’s all about product. And, and the process itself is infinitely valuable. It’s so transformational, so transformative. And so it, you know, yes, the product can do beautiful things in the world, and it’s really exciting to share, but the product does not have to be the point. The point can be the process. So even if you know, you, you can’t spell, and your handwriting stinks, and, and you’re, you know, like everything you put down on the page looks horrible. You know, even that, that practice of seeing our brokenness and, and loving it anyhow, and trusting that it’s valuable anyhow, is tremendous. (22m 33s): Like, that is spiritual practice, right? Is to, to see ourselves mirrored back in a, in a way that’s uncomfortable and to say, yeah, that’s still me. Yeah. Yeah. I Love that. So, so journaling, I’m a strong proponent of journaling or, or writing whatever, poetry or memoir, whatever, with no audience in mind, intention of no audience. So I also had a student one time who, like, she had her husband who was a welder, like weld all of her journals shut into a box. Oh, wow. Metal box, you know, so like, what, what does it take for you to feel safe on the beach? (23m 14s): Yeah. Yeah. And I, and we’re gonna talk about your memoir in, in just a second, but I, I wanted to ask like how the, kind of the flip side of that is that often I think folks are wondering when it’s time to share, right? Like, how do, how do I know that I’m ready to share the, either my memoir or this particular story? And so I’m wondering for you, you know, what, how did you deal with, with that question of like, am I ready to, to write this memoir? But then also, am I ready to share this? Yeah. Well, so I’m a little different because I have this compulsion to write, like I write, to find out what I think and what I believe. (24m 2s): And so, so it was, it, it’s never, it was never a question, you know, should I write this memoir or shouldn’t I, it was like I had to write it. The real question is, do I share it when and how? So, so the writing of it, so, so essentially I came out to myself by writing, and, and it was, it was in the journal, but it was also literally needing to write out my life story so that I could see it with new lenses, you know, like, okay, if I, if I am bisexual, what, you know, suddenly that childhood friendship I had with the girl in my art class who I was totally obsessed with, you know, like I see it in a new light, right? (24m 54s): Yeah. Yeah. And so in any case, I had to, I had to write it out in order to, in order to even arrive at the place where I could say the word bisexual out loud. And so, you know, when I came out to my parents, it was this, you know, I basically said, okay, I’ve thought about this a lot. I’ve been like struggling with this for years, And I think I’m bisexual, and here’s my book. Read it. And so, so really the two were like, the writing got me to the point where I could come out, and the coming out process to me was the same as sharing my writing, at least, at least in my intimate spaces. (25m 41s): Yeah. But, you know, just kind of in general, like that process, like when do you share it? It’s a, a discernment process, right? Because the privacy of the page is so precious, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s like the privacy of prayer and that there, you know, it’s, it’s ultimately permission giving and ultimately forgiving. And you, you don’t want to puncture that space too soon. You don’t want to, to, and you, and, and when puncture is kind of a harsh word, but I think of it as like a cloud or, or, you know, like this, I I call it like a cloud of privacy that I think is really important to write in. (26m 29s): And at some point I think you feel strong enough with the content of what you’re writing about that it’s like, oh, this, this can be shared. But, but it’s also super important to only share with people who are going to give you what you most need. And lots of times, family and friends are not, that the not the right people to share writing with. Lots of times it’s a writing group actually, you know, a bunch of strangers or, or a teacher or spiritual director or a pastor. You know, like lots of times it’s someone who can see through the, you know, whenever I would share my writing with my mom, she would always say, well, you weren’t, you’re exaggerating there, you know, she would kind of be nitpicky about these stupid details and totally disregarding kind of the heart what I was writing. (27m 22s): It’s like, I just didn’t need that. I mean, you know, she wasn’t disowning me, which is, you know, that’s also a possible reaction, right? But to, to be really intentional and careful and deliberate about who you share what with, when, and then, you know, so I, I write in this cloud of privacy, but then I, like Stephen King says, write with the door closed and rewrite with the door open. And I kind of gradually open the door. So, you know, at first I share it with my trusted writing group, you know, then I might share it with my partner, and then, you know, eventually I might choose some beta readers who are, you know, who understand my vision and, you know, go on down the line. (28m 10s): Yeah. I love that. I, I think that’s so important, right? Because I think often because of the internet, we, we think of sharing as, like, I write it in privacy, and then it’s for the whole world, right? And there’s no intermediary spaces. And so I, I love that kind of teasing out of there, there’s there gradations, right? Of, of how we share. I think that’s so important. Yeah. How we share and also gradations of how we write. You know, I, in some ways, I, I think of that as creative bypassing. So you write something and then it’s out there, right? And basically you’ve bypassed the whole revision process, that whole process of re-seeing and, you know, seeing a new, and seeing the different eyes. (28m 55s): And, you know, which to me is the, the, the bisexual lens. Okay, let’s, let’s look at this from many angles. Let’s embrace the many perspectives. There’s a, a really great Ted talk by, oh gosh, I’m hoping I remember her name. It’s Che is her last name, and it’s, she’s talking about how when she first came from, I think it’s Nigeria to the United States to go to college, her roommate had all of these assumptions about her. You know, like she was amazed that, that this woman could light, you know, use a stove. And, and so Adii says, okay, this, my roommate had a single story about me. (29m 40s): And, and prejudice is a, like a single story about a person. But actually what what we want is more than a single story. We wanna, you know, who we are is many, many stories, and we need that multidimensional multidimensionality of ourselves in order to really see ourselves as whole. And I think for writing, like when you write your first draft, that’s a single story. And the, the beautiful, hard, long, deep process of developing a book or, you know, any, any a poem or whatever, a longer work is about layering that first draft with many other drafts. (30m 30s): You know, like adding the multidimensionality to your story, not just, you know, it takes time, it takes commitment, but, but if, if you love writing, then like, that’s a fantastic journey. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about your book, Swinging on the Garden Gate, A Memoir of Bisexuality and Spirit. For those who haven’t read it, can you just say briefly what it’s about? Yeah, so I, when I was coming out, the biggest struggle for me was reconciling my sexual identity with my faith. Because even though I was raised in this very generous, loving, liberal Protestant congregation, I absorbed by osmosis all of the teachings that our culture somehow circulates. (31m 25s): That you can’t, you know, that it’s sinful to be sexually deviant or, you know, like the, and, and, and that, that somehow my attraction to women was wrong. No one ever told me that in, you know, from the pulpit, you know? So I, so I was really spared the direct teaching of that, but it did come through the culture. And so, and in fact, you know, I grew up with two men living in the house to the north of us and two women living in the house to the south of us. And I just thought they were two old ladies and two old men. (32m 7s): And, you know, never really meant anything to me. But one of my only memories of my mother talking about homosexuality was her standing at the kitchen sink peeling carrots and saying, oh, we’re surrounded by them. And, and So just, you know, just kind of like little, you know, microaggressions in, in the house that taught me that this was not okay. And I mean, it’s not to say, you know, like we always brought them Christmas kook in, so, you know, and they were good neighbors, but, but there’s just, you know, just that little sense of this is not right. And so, so in, in any case, the book is, is really about reconciling that kind of Christian indoctrination that I absorbed with my pure knowing of, of truth and, and energy and life. (33m 11s): And I was a really mystical child and had a very dynamic dream life and dynamic sense of, of the presence of something beyond me that eventually I called God. And so how, how to bring those two stories, you know, my, my embodied experience of the sacred and this taught doctrinal experience or, you know, lessons about God and morality and sacred scripture and all that, how, how to, how to reconcile the two of them. (33m 52s): So, so that’s, it’s kind of an intellectual perspective on what it is that it’s really my life story and, and how I was able to, to reclaim Christianity as true to my, it kind of rewrite the Christian language so that, so that it was mine and, and true to my experience. Yeah. So you, you wrote this book a, a while ago, it’s now in its second printing. I’m curious what your journey has been with the book, whether that is, you know, how you feel about it now, or what has changed since the book. (34m 32s): You know, it can be wild to like put something out in the world and that have, that be people’s only, you know, knowledge of you. And so I’m just curious, what, what’s that journey been like? Yeah, yeah. So I, it, it came out in the year 2000 when I was, how old was I? About 30. And it was really small, you know, finding a home for it was really difficult because, you know, most traditional publishers wouldn’t touch the Christian aspect of it, and most Christian publishers wouldn’t touch the bisexual aspect of it. I feel very fortunate that I found a home with the Unitarians, and they published, you know, like 500 copies. (35m 17s): It was a really small print run, but it served as this beautiful permission slip to me to go out into the world and speak. And so I spoke at so many unitarian fellowships and national reconciling conferences and my high school and, you know, so it was, it was an opportunity to be really at, not in a massive scale, but to be out in a, in a pretty big way for me, and almost entirely, it was a good experience. So I got to meet all kinds of people. I got to meet a lot of queer people, a lot of people really hurt by the church, and, and it felt really connective and good to be able to share my story. (36m 10s): Then, you know, the, they did a, they actually did a second print run, and so I think in the end it was maybe 1500 copies went out into the world, but it went on a print, And I had a bunch in my garage that I just, you know, sell a couple every year. And then, then, I don’t know, five years ago or so, a friend of mine asked me to do this tour through a bunch of two year colleges in Wisconsin speaking to, you know, the queer clubs and, you know, like little G-L-B-T-Q-A resource rooms, you know, that sort of thing. (36m 51s): So this was, this was, you know, 28 years after the book was published initially, And I just was heartbroken by the questions that people were asking me, you know, these, these young kids saying, wait a minute, are you saying it’s possible to be queer and spiritual? And you know, much less Wait, you mean you’re saying you can be queer and Christian? So just, just this, you know, this gulf between the life of faith and queer identity that just, it made me weep. (37m 31s): And I decided at that point that I was gonna just self-publish it the second time because it needed to be in the world, even if it was just, you know, a handful of people. And actually, you know, I wanna tell one other story from, from when it first came out. I was speaking on a panel at a local college, and this young woman came up to me with her copy of Swinging on the Garden Gate, and it was completely mutilated. Like she had underlined and highlighted and dogeared and, you know, like, it, it was, she had just used that book, and she asked me to sign it, And I was so moved by how, how she had used it. (38m 17s): And then that I ca got to know her eventually. And she, you know, she was raised Catholic, she came out lesbian, she left the Catholic church, became a Methodist, went to seminary, went into the ministry, you know, like she had this strong calling that she claims my book helped awaken in her. And so, so I, you know, I, I, going into the second printing, I, I knew that it didn’t need to reach massive numbers of people, it just needed to reach the right people. And so I decided I was gonna self-publish it. But before I did, I went back to scanner house And I said, you know, I’m gonna do this, and are you interested? (38m 59s): And they said, you know, I think that the time might be right now that maybe it was too early to publish it, and that the time’s right now, so they reissued it, which I’m really grateful for. You use this phrase in the preface to the second edition Sexuality as a Seat of Sacred Knowing. And I, I love that. And I, and I’m wondering if you can say a bit more about what you mean by that, or what that means. Yeah, I, I mean, I think one of the real gifts that gay lesbian by transgender, you know, non-binary, you know, that, that folks who have, who have had to claim identity in opposition to assumptions of the dominant culture, like one of the gifts that we bring to the world is this understanding of sexuality as a, an essential component of identity, right? (40m 2s): Like, and, and gender, you know, like this is an essential component of who I am and, and coming out forces us to be aware of it and be in relationship to it. And I think sexuality is just so basic to our life force that when we’re in loving relationship with it, it’s this really powerful sacred dimension of who we are. So, you know, we, I think this is also a, an unfortunate inheritance of, of our Christian, the Christian influence on our culture. (40m 43s): We’ve really kind of denigrated sexuality as not sacred, you know, we’ve separated it from the sacred. And so as you know, because of that, it’s, you know, it’s like everything else that we’ve separated from the sacred, it has kind of this, when I was studying liberation theology, it’s like, God, there’s this, God has a preference, preference for the poor, right? You know, like, like, and, and there’s something about the margins, those, those marginal places of our lives, of our culture where, where there’s real energy and creativity. (41m 25s): I mean, sexuality is also the source of our creativity, right? Like, and so to, to, I think think, I think when we heal that dichotomy, that division between sexuality and spirituality and reenter into kind of a loving, exploratory relationship with it, that it just has the potential to, to fuel us in, in a really powerful and healing way. You’ve talked a little bit about bisexuality and contemplative nature and how those two have, have gone together for you. (42m 6s): I’m wondering if you can say even more about what your sexuality and your identity has taught you specifically about your faith or how it has opened up your faith in, in different ways. One of the things that Christianity’s wisdom, tradition, you know, the, the legacy of the mystics and the, the desert mothers and fathers and, you know, kind of the, the, that, that current, that generally we don’t hear about in church, but that, that has preserved this, this teaching, which is that we can be in direct relationship with our source. (42m 47s): And so I believe that having to come out and having, having my embodied experience of attraction to people of many genders, and also having this embodied experience of, of sexual attraction to the world, you know, to to like, you know, that, that there’s a sexual dimension to like a, a, a beautiful sunset, you know? So, so to to, to live in this body teaches me direct relationship with the amazing embodied world in the embodied spirit of the world. (43m 39s): And, you know, in particular my wife and in particular my daughter and my cats. But, but, but you know, like there’s, there’s this way that being in our bodies is connects us to something beyond our bodies. I’m not being very articulate about this, I’m afraid, but it’s, it’s kind of, that’s okay. It’s so intimate, isn’t it? Like that, that place of, you know, I’m thinking about many of the saints who, who just, like, when they describe their relationship with God, or like St. John of the Cross is a great example. (44m 19s): Like, for St. John of the cross prayer is sneaking out of the house and going to the lover’s apartment and resting his head on his lover’s chest. You know, like, so, so there’s this, there’s this arena in Christianity where that is like, that’s devotion. That’s, that’s an alive faith. And of course it’s, you know, it’s scary to a lot of people. But to me that describes my, my experience of relating to my, you know, my partner and to the spirit. (45m 2s): I’m, I’m curious, you know, you’ve, you’ve been in this world of, of writing about the intersections between faith and identity for a long time. We have too, and I’m always curious, you know, where folks see the next horizons of the intersections of queerness and faith going. I’m wondering you I do. I’m so glad you asked that question. Yes. Because I think the next stage for us, And I think the queer community can be leaders in this arena, is really shifting how we perceive our identity as human. (45m 45s): We tend to understand ourselves as separate from one another, right? Like, my identity is a white, middle aged queer woman who’s a mom and a writer, you know? So that’s how I understand my identity. But I think ultimately we’re not separate people, you know, like I am my ancestors And I am my descendants, And I am my teachers, And I am in the people that I’ve taught. And, you know, it’s like, so, so we are vastly interconnected people, And I think if we could move, if we, you know, when we do move into really owning that sense of identity, that I, you know, a person is a person through other persons, that, that, that’s an evolutionary leap. (46m 44s): And the reason I think the queer community can and should be our spiritual leaders in that area is because we’ve already done, we, we already have practiced revising identity, you know, revising our sense of identity and participating in how we, how we name ourselves, and what we wanna be, how we wanna, who we wanna be in the world. And we could keep going, like, we don’t have to stop with whatever label we’ve given ourselves. Now we can continue to come out and to come into this much bigger sense of who we are. So, so that’s what I think about a lot actually, is how, how to encourage everyone, but queer folks in, in, in particular, not to kind of stop growing once, you know, to stop coming out once you’ve named yourself, but to keep exploring, you know, what more am I and what went, what might it mean if I kind of broke down some of the boxes, kind of the individuality boxes that, that I’ve assumed. (47m 56s): Yeah. Well, I love that, you know, we’re living in kind of a fraught time, and some folks might be wondering, why bother with things like writing or art making or, or being creative, right? Like, we have bigger things to worry about. And I’m wondering how, how you would answer those folks. The, you know, what do we really have power to change? And it’s ourselves, right? So what, so by, you know, what, what kind of, what kind of world do we want? You know, we want a world that is inclusive and uplifting and peaceful and, and connective and meaningful. (48m 40s): So where do you start? You start with yourself, you know, like you start with, you know, your interior, honestly, you know, like how is your heart? Is your heart connected and growing and peaceful? And the, in my experience, the practice, a creative practice or A Spiritual Practice, it seems self-centered. It seems small, but in fact, those practices connect us to the depths of who we are. And those depths feed us in ways that enable us to, and compel us to make change in the world. (49m 29s): So, so I would actually argue the opposite, that unless we’re doing these practices that connect us to our roots, anything we do in the world is gonna be ineffective. So, so it’s like tapping into what’s beyond us, you know, what’s bigger than us? We’re very small, kinda helpless. People don’t, you know, we’re pretty ineffective, right? But, But we can tap into the power of the natural world and the power of community, and the power of the spirit. The power of love. Like if you can, if you can root yourself in that, you’re just kind of, you can’t help but make, you know, bring that about, bring that into being around you. (50m 14s): So, so yeah, for me it’s like, you know, I, I love activists who are, who are doing really great work in the world, but I think nothing’s worse than an angry activist. And really what I mean, well, I should say, let me qualify that anger can be holy too, but you wanna root that anger and love. So it’s like, okay, where, where am I rooting myself? This conversation has been so lovely. I feel like we could keep going forever, but I’m conscious of time. If, if folks wanna know more about you and your work, where is the best place for them to connect with you? Yeah, Elizabeth jar andrew.com. (50m 55s): It’s Elizabeth with a z and Jarret, J-A-R-R-E-T-T, Andrew, without an s that’s my, my author website. And, and then I also have a website that’s spiritual memoir.com, that’s resources for writing and reading and publishing, spiritual memoir. So there’s all sorts of classes and an online writing community that, that I host for free. So yeah, there’s all sorts of ways to connect there. Amazing. We’ll link those in the show notes so that people can just scroll down and, and click. And we love to close by asking, what is one thing that’s been bringing you joy lately? (51m 37s): Baking. I amazing. I, after the election, spent the whole evening making all of my mother’s favorite brownies and blondies. And I think that that was my, you know, if I, if here’s what I can control in the world, I can make people smile by feeding them sweets. Love it. Well, thank you so, so much for taking the time to, to do this interview. I really appreciate it. Oh, Shannon, thank you so much for, for inviting me. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (52m 18s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post The Power to Change Our Story with Elizabeth Jarrett Andrew appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re getting into the hot topic of faith, politics, and the intersection of both in this episode! There has always been an intricate relationship between politics and faith. We discuss how our upbringing shaped some of our views on patriotism, activism, and the current political landscape, especially in relation to Christian nationalism. We also talk about how faith and activism go hand in hand and the challenges of reconciling our faith with activism. The conversation wouldn’t be complete without getting into how the legacy of Jesus is a source of inspiration for social justice work.   Takeaways Politics and faith are deeply intertwined in personal experiences. The church’s engagement with politics has evolved over time. Christian nationalism has influenced many church communities. Activism can reignite a sense of spirituality and purpose. The tension between faith and politics is a common struggle. Historical context is vital in understanding current political dynamics. The legacy of Jesus can inspire social justice efforts. Navigating moral implications of political actions is crucial. Community support is essential for those exploring faith and activism. Understanding the complexities of faith can lead to deeper connections with activism.   Chapters (05:34) Personal Experiences with Church and Politics   (10:38) The Shift from Faith to Activism   (15:46) Navigating the Tension Between Faith and Politics   (20:23) The Legacy of Jesus and Activism     Resources: Be part of the workshop, The Politics of Jesus by joining the Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology EPISODE TRANSCRIPT The post The Politics of Jesus appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re joined this week by Brian’s longtime friend, inspirational artist, and glitter enthusiast, Jamie Kushner Blicher. Jamie started creating mixed-media pieces in high school and continued to do so throughout her college years at New York City’s Fashion Institute of Technology. She creates abstract pieces by filling the same tool that brings many families hope and rainbow babies with ink (sterile IVF needles). Since 2016, Jamie has been using her art to help bring calm and happiness to others who have gone through, or are still going through, their infertility journeys. In this conversation, Jamie shares her journey through infertility and how it led her to create art as a form of therapy. She discusses the importance of community, the power of creativity, and how her experiences have shaped her artistic process. Jamie emphasizes the significance of sharing stories and supporting one another through difficult times.    Takeaways Art can serve as a powerful form of therapy. Creativity allows for personal expression and healing. Community support is essential during challenging times. Sharing stories can foster connection and understanding. Different experiences should be embraced, not stigmatized. Finding joy in small things can help navigate tough situations. Art can be a medium for honoring difficult journeys. It’s important to let those facing challenges lead the conversation. Creating art can be a meditative and freeing process. The future of art can focus on specific communities and needs.   Chapters (00:35) Who is Jamie Kushner Blicher?  (06:15) Art as Therapy: The IVF Journey   (09:40) The Power of Art and Community   (11:10) Navigating Parenthood and Art, and Channeling Stories Through Art   (14:40) Spirituality and Community Support   (20:45) The Artistic Process   (23:13) Sharing Art and Personal Stories   (27:40) Future Aspirations for Glitter Enthusiast   (32:22) Messages for Those Facing Fertility Challenges   (36:24) Connecting with Jamie and Closing Thoughts     Resources: Website: https://glitterenthusiast.com/  IG – @glitterenthusiast Join the Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   PODCAST TRANSCRIPT The post Turning Pain Into Glitter with Jamie Kushner Blicher appeared first on Queer Theology.

This week, we’re catching up on our personal lives and discussing some pretty significant milestones we’ve achieved. We also talk about our mental health journeys, and the importance of finding joy amidst the chaos of the world. Which can be really, really hard right now – we know! We’ve got an update on our upcoming book releases (exciting!) and how much we appreciate our community (ya’ll are so beautiful it makes us cry) and share some books and resources that are giving us inspiration and joy now.    Takeaways It’s important to find joy in our lives despite external chaos. Mental health is a journey that requires intentional care. Writing can be both a deeply personal and collaborative process. Polyamory offers insights that can enrich spirituality and relationships. Books can serve as a bridge for understanding complex topics. Community engagement is vital for supporting queer art and literature. The process of writing a book can evoke a range of emotions. Devotionals can be grounded in progressive theology and justice. Curiosity can transform our understanding of others. Sharing personal stories can create deeper connections in community.   Chapters (04:03) Finding Joy Amidst Chaos (06:47) The Journey of Writing: Books and Mental Health (12:13) Exploring Polyamory: Insights and Spirituality (15:43) The Process of Writing Together (17:53) Upcoming Releases: Books and Plays (22:40) Engaging with the Community: Mailing Lists and Support (25:39) Media Consumption: What We’re Reading and Watching   Resources: Join the Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   PODCAST EPISODE The post Roundup: Reading, Watching, Writing, Listening appeared first on Queer Theology.