Queer Theology

We’re joined this week by Troy Weekes (@troyweekesmusic) from “Alphabet Soup” to talk about the show, his music, and faith. From Harlem New York, Troy has been singing since the age of three and performing since the age of fourteen. He is also a songwriter, actor, dancer, and MC/Event Host. He is currently working on his first EP project, under the new genre and style that he created called *Soul & B. He can sing gospel, neo-soul, and R&B, but he did not feel like one or the other is exactly where he fits in. When not working on his own project, Troy can be seen performing with his band, Ji-Groove. and hosting events all across America. “Alphabet Soup,” an unfiltered reality of queer dating in NYC, where raw emotions, intimate texts and authentic relationships unfold without scripts or filters is now airing on Peacock.   In this conversation, Troy shares his journey as a reality TV star on ‘Alphabet Soup,’ discussing the importance of vulnerability, navigating sexuality, and the role of faith in his life with Brian. He emphasizes self-love, authenticity, and the power of community, while also touching on his music career and aspirations for the future. Troy’s insights provide a powerful message of hope and resilience for the LGBTQ community and beyond.   Takeaways Troy emphasizes the importance of being vulnerable in reality TV. He discusses the challenges of navigating sexuality and relationships. Faith plays a significant role in Troy’s life and identity. Troy identifies as pansexual and shares his experiences in dating. He highlights the importance of self-love and authenticity. Troy’s music is a blend of R&B, neo-soul, and gospel. He aims to create a community for LGBTQ couples. Troy believes in the power of manifestation and positive thinking. He shares insights on overcoming personal challenges and societal pressures. Troy encourages others to embrace their true selves and pursue their passions.   Chapters (02:57) Reality Show Dynamics and Vulnerability (05:55) Navigating Sexuality and Relationships (08:41) Faith and Spirituality in Troy’s Life (11:42) Polyamory and LGBTQ+ Identity (14:37) Reactions to the Show and Personal Life (17:24) Troy’s Musical Journey and Live Experience (19:46) The Art of Performance: Blending Music and Comedy (21:03) Spirituality and Vulnerability in Art (22:58) Building Community: Love and Support for LGBTQIA Couples (25:02) Authenticity in Relationships and Reality TV (26:01) Messages of Self-Love and Personal Growth (29:09) Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Change (33:37) Creating a Legacy: Music, Fragrance, and Future Projects (35:58) Finding Joy in Living Authentically   Resources:.  Follow Troy on Instagram @troyweekesmusic  Learn more about Troy at https://www.mta.info/agency/arts-design/collection/troy-weekes-music  Watch “Alphabet Soup” on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/alphabet-soup/6837618235516302112  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today. We are joined by Troy Weeks from the New Reality TV show on Peacock and Amazon Prime Alphabet Soup to talk about the show, his music, and his faith From Harlem, New York. Troy has been singing since the age of three and performing since the age of fourteen. He’s also a songwriter, actor, dancer, and MC and Event Host. (52s): He is currently working on his first EP project under the new genre and style that he created Soul and Beat, which, which he talks about in this episode. He can sing Gospel, neo soul, and R and b, but he did not feel like one or the other is exactly where he fits in. Troy can be seen hosting and performing in events all across the country. This new show that Troy is in Alphabet Soup is an unfiltered reality of queer dating in NYC, where e emotions are raw, intimate texts and authentic relationships unfold without scripts or filters is now airing a peacock at Amazon Prime. In today’s conversation, Troy, she’s Journey as a reality TV star, discusses the importance of vulnerability, navigating sexuality in the role his faith plays in his life. (1m 33s): In this conversation we talk about all about self-love, authenticity, and the power of community, while also exploring his diverse music career. And he gives us some sneak peeks into his future. This is a powerful message of hope and resilience for everyone in the queer community and beyond. I had so much fun chatting with Troy And I think you’re really going to enjoy this episode. Let’s get into it. Troy, thank you so much for being here on the Queer Theology podcast today to talk about yourself and the show that you’re on Alphabet Soup. It’s been a really fun show to watch and I’m so excited to dive into more of it and also like your story because I think you’re like a really, I wanna say compelling character because it’s a TV show, but also you’re actual also actual a real person. So I’m shame person. (2m 15s): I’m glad you said that because that’s one of the most important things about Alphabet Soup is, And I want people to know, like it’s not, it’s not a a scripted show at all. It’s hundred percent a reality series. It’s a documentary, but in reality style. So everything that’s happening is in real life, real time and real life. It’s happening now. Yeah. And so the show, it’s kind of cool. It’s like it follows relationships and dating, but it’s like not a sort of like classic dating show with contestants and these sort of like pre-arranged pairings. Correct. And so, but like you are going on dates and being emotionally vulnerable in front of a camera. And so like what was it like to put yourself out there in in this way? (2m 58s): Well, to start it off, it was like during the pandemic, I think me and Shannon met originally during the Pandemic, he did an original series called Sex Love Misery, which is now out on Amazon. Okay. This is where it all started. Yeah. So put a ca he put a cast in. Now I was like, okay, you know what? I’ve always wanted to be a part of reality in general. Like this is like, I’ve been on a couple reality shows. I actually have another reality show out now and it’s, it’s called Complete Boss. It’s about being a Boston entrepreneur and having your own business. And I, I created my own unisex Fragrance, so Oh, okay. Cool. All those out there who wanna smell, smell amazing, you walk by it like, what is that? You got on? You gotta get you. So I can tell you about it later, But we’ll put all The links to all this in the description. Yes. You guys will have it. I’ll tell you all about it. Yeah. (3m 38s): I’ve been doing Fragrance for 10 years And I decided to do my own because everyone was like, you saw so good. So I was on the show for that, which is out now as well. So I’ve always wanted to do reality. I met Shannon, we did one show and sort of like we just like, Hey, we’ll see what happens with it. Nothing really came of it, but I was the only person that continued to work with him, so I was like, let’s keep the ball rolling, let’s keep the ball rolling. So boom, Alphabet Soup is born And I decided, okay, cool. This is a little bit different And I gotta be more vulnerable in a different way, so I’m gonna go ahead and go with it. And so for me it was a little, it was a little different at first ’cause I’m such a private person when my public life, like I’m a public person, but my life is private. Most people know me as Troy weeks music singer, artist, you know, musical creator, media, personality, interviews, podcasts, all that stuff. (4m 22s): So people know me for being on the camera. And so I’m used to being in front of the camera, but telling my business was a different thing. And so for me, I just felt like years ago I was on another show that was supposed to come out, didn’t come out. And while we’re filming, I was on that show And I was on a podcast, my first podcast, And I decided to come out as pansexual because I never talked about my sexuality. And everyone was always like, Hmm, but what is this? He’s gay. What is it? I’m like, so I got tired of people just asking. So I said, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna do you guys one favor, I’m gonna put it on my podcast and I’m on, and I’m, and the show I’m on so that you guys can watch the episode and go back anytime you have any questions because I don’t have to keep explaining. And I decided to come out as pansexual because I felt like it was hard to date being pansexual, especially when the words started first coming out because people didn’t understand. (5m 4s): And so a lot of women wouldn’t take me seriously because a lot of women didn’t wanna have sex with a man who had sex with another band. So it’s like Barry and then dealing 21 questions and I’m like, for me, I know who I’m, I know where I stand. I’m not gonna, I, I don’t have to deal with that. If you have an insecurity about who I’m in my situation, that’s a problem for you because pansexual man can be a great father, be boyfriend, be fiance, great husband. That doesn’t change anything. And so I, I felt decided to like about to be the face of it. I’ll be the face of it. So once I decided to put my sexuality out there and say, Hey, this is who I’m be the face of pansexuality, boom, I decided to just go on and do it. And then this being show, just, it just naturally led to that. And then even having Ray on my partner, it was a lot, he’s from Jamaica Refugee, he’s never been front the camera. (5m 44s): It’s not his thing at all. And so for him to be at vulnerable, it took months for us to convince him to do it, but he did it. And now he, he’s, he’s so happy that he did because it allowed him to tell his story. So it ain’t been easy y’all, but I’m glad that I was able to put it on a platform like this in, in a different way where we can make change in our community for it better. Yeah. One of the fun things is like, you don’t know upfront anyone’s sexual orientations or their gender identities or their gen gender journeys. It sort of like gets revealed to you as a viewer, you know, as if you were meeting a person in real time. So that’s, it’s kind of fun to sort of be like, wait, like who is this person? What are they into, like what’s their vibe? What are they looking for? And you kind of find out exactly, it gets in pieces. But let’s say you were at like a queer dinner party or queer cocktail party. (6m 25s): Like how might you introduce yourself and, and what are some of the identities that are important to you? You’ve already touched on a few of them. Of course. I definitely would say my pronouns, if you hear them, I would say pansexual, identify as pansexual, the same thing. Like, so always that’s always just fear when me and my partner meet someone because they’re always like, well, you guys together, so you’re two gay guys. My partner’s pansexual and I’m pansexual. I have an 8-year-old daughter, shout out to my baby girl. Genesis Olivia, I love you girl. And so we decided that we wanted to expand our family and like, what does that look like for us? So in talking about it, we both realized we wanted the same thing. We wanted to expand our family. We both wanted to have find a girlfriend or two girlfriends or have, have two girlfriends together. (7m 5s): They wanna be with us, who knows whatever it looks like. We decided that we’re gonna stand on whatever it looked like for us. So it’s usually, hi, I’m choice, my partner away. I’m pansexual, he’s pansexual. I have an 80-year-old daughter, we’re looking for a girlfriend. Boom. So it’s usually how it runs if someone’s like interested because I don’t know how else to put it. So, and then like for instance, my mom watched it. She, she couldn’t pass the first episode ’cause she was just over the fact that I was dating someone else other than Ray. And then the fact that I was, me and Ray were with the girl, we had sex with the girl. She was just like, ah, this is too much for me. Y’all doing too much. Y’all doing too much. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t watch. So, you know, it’s not easy for everyone to, to process in this day and time because it’s still something like that’s not spoken about or sort of taboo in the sense of like reality. (7m 48s): So it’s here, it’s happening and it’s real. And so, you know, I love my mom and like she, we have, we have two ferrets and she hates any kind of animals, any kind of fake animals, anything look like a animal, like creatures. And so she was hugging up on the ferret and we’re friends now. So I’m like, if you can make a relationship with my parent and you don’t even like animals you can fund in your heart to make a relationship with our girlfriend so I don’t get over it. Yeah. And so I know that you’re like a gospel singer and like consider yourself a person of faith. Can you talk a little bit about your like spiritual or religious background and like, you ready for that? Yeah. How that got where you today we’re ready, let’s do it. So I, I grew up in the church first and foremost, I, I found God at 13. (8m 32s): I grew up in an under neighborhood and in my neighborhood there was a community center that always like served food and you know, engaged in the community. And I just happened to go and didn’t know they had a church. And I started going to the church there And I got ready close with the pastor. And so that started my journey in faith and I’ve been a Christian since I was 13 and so on. And I kept going and always singing and always singing as an adult. I moved to New York, back to New York because I left New York for a little while And I got into church choirs here and that’s where I started being in the church here, singing in the church, choirs here. And eventually led me to being a minister of music. So I’ve been a minister of music for five, six years now. A different church. I started singing praise and worship first and then I became a praise and worship leader from praise and worship leader that was a minister of one church and then to another church. (9m 14s): And so the back and forth either praise on worship, leading or ministering. And I’m actually also a Christian Buddhist. Last year my partner And I became Buddhist as well. So we’re Christian Buddhists. So yeah. And I’m actually a licensed minister. I can perform about four weddings this far. So if you’re queer and you look to get married and you want 12 weeks music to be the minister, how you doing? Come On. I love that. And I feel like there’s lots of queer Christian Buddhist crossover. Wow, I didn’t know that. I mean maybe it’s just like my, like my friends, I definitely went through like a Buddhist phase and like I am reading lots of Buddhist books and getting into meditation and the practices. It’s been really a meaningful part of my journey as well. But so I, I know to be like an LGBT person in the church, like it feels, for some people it feels like, oh my God, it was hard enough just to be gay or lesbian, bisexual. (10m 1s): Hard enough To come out. No, I have to. Yeah. And now like when you add non-monogamy, you’re polyamory into the mix. Yeah. It’s like you had another thing. And so like how, what has that been like navigating polyamory as a person at Faith? I dunno if you, I’m like all up in that polyamory person at Faith. I, I’m also polyamorous and bisexual and a person At Faith. So someone understand each other in a way. Like for me it’s like I’m unapologetically who I am And I don’t have to explain who God created me to be. I woke up this man, I woke up me And I tell people all the time when I do my shows, I do a lot of experience. I have my own band, I worked with them 10 years. I just had a show last night and the night before that and night before that. So I’m always working. Music is my life, music is my ministry, nor created me to be a street creature. (10m 41s): And that’s why I’m saying that because all my ministry ties to being in this industry, in the public, being in the eye and being someone that people are looking at. So one being someone that people are always looking at looking up to admired by, like, it, it, it’s been a journey being able to understand and stand in my own truth and be comfortable with that. Because for a long time there’s a lot of things I wouldn’t say or do, but you know, when it comes to the church, you gotta be solid and stand on your own faith for your own self because God is not the church, God is in you. And so you have to be able to stand on that for yourself because you’re gonna go through a transition no matter who you’re, and now us being who we’re is gonna a double transition because now you know it’s a lot more. And so it’s like I’m already now coming out of a stage where I’m trying to find who I am And I’m said this is who I am standing on it. (11m 21s): And then now the one group of people who’s supposed to all lean on and I’m supposed to rely on for love, for confidence, for guidance is sort of giving resistance too. So where do I go? And this is why a lot of us ends up in all houses in in the ballroom scene or in different situations where we shouldn’t be in because we’re looking for love or looking for comfort, looking for guidance in all the wrong places. And because we don’t have that, it leads us down the wrong path a lot. We gotta go through a lot of things to get to a point where we really find ourselves and and understand who we’re, And I feel like, you know, don’t nobody, don’t nobody know how to struggle like a LGBTQ Christian. Okay. Because Amen. Especially if you’re black, I ain’t gonna hold it. But it, especially if you’re black or trans because those two, being black in our community and being and being on GT is a lot and especially just being trans in general is, is is you know, in any community could be a lot. (12m 8s): So it is just something that you know, you gotta realize and stand on. When I said yes to the call on God’s life for me, I said, it’s one thing I didn’t tell you what to do Lord, but I need to not be around the corner. I don’t wanna go, I don’t wanna be a preacher in the church around the corner because there’s a lot of people in these church houses playing church And I don’t have time for it. I wanna be like Jesus, I wanna go to the, I wanna go down to down the street, I the corner. I wanna be like Jesus. And so I said yes and the Lord showed me, boom. Yeah. Immediately right after that I was in a setting, I was hosting karaoke, didn’t never been. And I was hosting karaoke And I was in a lounge and the Lord used me to prophesy to people and minister to people like I was in a church. Now I wasn’t on the microphone of everyone, but it was in a, to them personally, you come here, lemme talk to you for a minute. (12m 51s): The Lord told me to tell you this, da da da. Go get, go get Sarah. Tell Sarah to come here. And I’ve never did that in a real church. Like I’ve never done that in a church house. So for the Lord to say, okay, this is what you’re doing, boom. I never had an experience like that again per se. It’s always impersonal, personal like person to person. But I don’t play with God. And I already knew that that was that and that was that on that. And so every time I do a show, my live experience I call it, I always give a message because a lot of things, everything I do ties to my ministry. That’s why I said I’m a street preacher with that. I’ve even created my own style of music. ’cause I sing RB, Neo soul and gospel music, but I didn’t fit into one style and genre alone. So I created soul and bead. So if you look up drawing so hard, my single and have a video for it, that’s the epitome of what soul and be is because everything I do has a message makes you think about something, makes you wanna change, makes you wanna get up and do something. (13m 34s): And I don’t say Jesus lord of Christ, but you feel the spirit, you feel it. And I say to me, that’s the most important thing. I don’t have to say anything about spirituality, but you gonna feel it no matter what, no matter who you are, no matter where I’m at. And so that’s why the Lord created me to be me And I stand on it. Amen. Can you talk a little bit more, I love that so much. I, my Shannon And I hear are Queer Theology. I think long time listening to the podcast we’ll be like yeah, yeah, yeah. Like purchase like a drag show or a ballroom or like brunch with your friends or just like late night like Kiki. Like it’s, it’s like that’s the spirit there too. Can you talk a bit more about how you’ve like found God sort of outside of church walls? So once I realized who God was and, And I said yes to the Lord, that was the beginning journey for me because growing up where I grew up in the neighborhood, it wasn’t a good neighborhood and there was nobody around me who was in church. (14m 21s): So it was me in my spirituality sort of against all of them and trying to, you know, convert them and change and help them understand better. And like, and I’m 1314, so I like, and this ain’t, That’s a lot of weight to put on a 13-year-old, right? It’s like, why me? Like, you know this like, it’s a lot for me to handle, but it allowed me to be the stance for my family to open the door. And at that time I didn’t understand, but now I understand who I’m and why that purpose was because of the, the authority that I have and how my, how my family and everyone else looks up to me. The Lord shows me for that particular thing. Because when I say things, people speak, things happen and people listen. And so I’ve been that living example and because I’ve been an example, I’ve been able to, you know, get my mom closer to guy and get my sister, like most of the people close to me, closer to guy, anybody that’s around me, I’m hugging on you, speaking into you. (15m 7s): So it’s like I realize that this is really who I am and that it’s important to like, even to tell people like as simple as I work with you today, like I’m proud of you And I I’m telling you this, like I’m proud of you after researching you and looking at what you’ve done, looking with you guys, how far you’ve come. I’m proud of you. And like you have to be able to tell those two people and let them know why they, why they, why they’re alive and let some other flowers now because that’s important. Yeah. We don’t have to know each other to big each other up, but I’m proud of you. Yeah, yeah. So like what’s the reaction been like to you and the show and the sort of like the, the non monogamy of it and the sort like bold, I mean like boldly talk about sex and like it’s, it’s like you go there. (15m 48s): Oh yeah, We don’t, we go there. Literally. What’s the, what’s the re like in your personal life or amongst like your your more like your, your queer friends who aren’t religious, your religious friends who like aren’t queer. Everyone’s just first of all shocked when I’m like, it’s on Peacock. They’re like That. I know it’s wild. You like, there’s like, you’re like, I that’s you, that’s me. It’s you and you’re on Peacock and like you’re talking about fetish and you’re talking, you got your, your your cap and the harnesses and like I’m really exposed. Like it’s beautiful, they’re very shocked. But this, that’s not prefacing when I tell the people that’s, I’m telling ’em watch it for the first time I’m talking to, I say, listen, it’s a little different than what you’re used to. (16m 31s): You know me but you don’t know me. You’re getting a little bit insight into my personal life and it’s gonna be some things that you don’t know about me that you’re gonna find out. But you know, go watch for yourself and find out we can talk about it later. And that’s how to preface it because I’m like, same with my mom. She’s like, ah, so some people can handle it and some people can’t. And I, it’s not a surprise. I’ve been telling people this for a while so it’s not like they just saw it and found out like, oh my god. So if they aren my immediate family, like we did a screening a couple times, like for my birthday two, two years ago we did a screening and my family came in frame my birthday family friends. So like they got a dose of it. I got to watch it in first hand in a room full of 35, 40 people like react to the first episode. So, so it was, it was interesting like people who like who’ve known me, seen me grow up as a kid, you know, they’ve never seen me intimate or ready before like that kissing and all that stuff. (17m 15s): So it was a eye opener. So, but it’s always been a great reaction like for the most part. And I, a lot of people that who know me, they’re like wow, it’s a lot. You know, I understand this is who you are now. I know. But it’s always been positive for the most part. I know that there’s been some negativity out in the world that’s out there now. I’ve seen some of the posts and some things people say, but like I said in a lot last podcast, I don’t really take it in a negative way. ’cause I’ve learned being on the side of media, being involved, like I don’t give in my energy because I’m not giving you my power. Yeah. So what I’ll do is say thank you for watching. Your view means a lot, but your opinion is your opinion. Have a good night. Yeah. Bam. I don’t have to feed into the negativity, but you still watch it. So regardless of what people say. And so for me, I’ve been trying to teach that to the youngsters, the new ones, the newbies in the game of reality TV or or being on camera that there’s gonna be that no matter what. (17m 57s): Especially with t lgbtq, there’s a lot probably polyamory is a lot of what y’all doing in here on what we’re doing. So I mean, me personally, I expect that, but to me the message is always bigger. At the end of the day. You’re always gonna have the naysay, but the message is always bigger and so methods focus on that. Yeah. I mean I just think it’s like so powerful the way it’s, you’re you and like the other members of the show are just like so boldly yourselves and like unafraid to go there and that like, I don’t know, like kids all over the country are gonna be able to like watch it on Peacock. It’s not like Peacock, Remember is Amazon Prime? Yeah. I remember having to like secretly like use Kada download like Queer Folk or Noah’s Ark. (18m 38s): Right, right. Watching it alone in my bedroom. Right. You just like log into peacock.com like it’s cool, it’s wild. It’s right there for you. Yeah, that was just a dream for too because that’s, it was such a process. That’s why it took so long to finally happen because Shannon was like, you know what? We worked so hard on this, it’s a great message. Like it’s something different. Let’s just go for a big push. And so he pushed for a while with, you know, different aggregators to get it pushed major networks out tv, you know, all these other networks was interested and just the process of the networking game is, is just numbers waiting and la la la la But at the end of the day it was all worth it because we ended up with Peacock and Amazon Prime. So it was amazing. You know, the sky’s the limit to where I can go right now ’cause it’s taking the wheels of its own and so we’re just blessed. (19m 21s): Yeah. So you’re also like in addition to this, you know, reality dating star, a musician in your own right. And then, so talk to me, talk to me about like music and how that’s like, been part of your, your life and your journey. Ladies and gentlemen, that’s how I stop my show. So just that’s give you a little peek. So I’m Troy Weeks music. I’ve been single since I was three in performance since 14. I actually just won McDonald’s Gospel Fest 2025 male soloist winner. So for those of you who don’t know now, you know yeah boy just won 2025 McDonald Gospel Fest winner. So I’ve been been single since three performance since 14. And I had just been on this journey of finding myself. And so that’s how at age 28, the Lord let me to find soul and being, create my own style and genre music. (20m 6s): And then from then it’s been going, I’ve had my own band now over 10 years. The four weeks I’ve experience, and it started from one gig became eight months and now 10 years. So you can find me look all over the place performing. I travel, we travel, I’m always somewhere hosting like on red carpets, interviewing people or doing my podcast. I started doing media, my podcast years ago I was with a podcast And I one podcast I was on a a talk show from a talk show to another podcast, to my own podcast, free Yourself for four weeks. Music Out, you can look it up. And I have got that advice for weeks music, but it Very Awesome is And who I am and that’s really who I’m Troy’s music. (20m 49s): Yeah. And we’ll, and we’ll pull links to all this in the show notes, but I think recaps at the end of the episode. But like for this live experience, it sounds like really rad. Like where can people, if I wanna like come experience Troy’s Troy Weeks’s music experience, like how do, like where is that happening? Yeah, so the best thing to do is just check my Instagram because my Instagram is like my, my main source of everything. Yeah. I have a show, like my stories, I put a lot in my personal business because that’s, you know, it’s half fun people, like they watch it. Yeah. Since I, especially since I won McDonald’s gospel spread, especially since I’m on Alphabet super on Peacock people watching. So I put a lot of things on my story. So if you go to my Instagram at Troy weeks music, W-E-E-K-E-S, Troy, weeks, music on everything. If you type in Google you’ll see my whole life. But on Instagram I put all my shows and usually in the city you can find me mostly in Harlem, at Savannah Shrine, Harlem Nights downtown at the Groove. (21m 37s): So I reside, have residencies throughout the city, but I’m always a little, I’m gonna, I’m gonna come, I’m gonna come sometimes Be your city, you know, I’m all over the place. So it’s like if you, you know, once you see me, you can’t unsee me. Yeah. Once you see the experience, you can’t unsee it. And that’s the most important thing. If you, if you don’t, you just gotta come see for yourself. I always say you, you gotta see it for yourself. And the reason why I say experience, because I always tell people from the jump after I say ladies and gentlemen and hold a note forever, forever, boom. And I got asthma, but I can still hold the notes. That’s all part of the joke. And I have glasses with no lenses, so I see everything, all of that is part of the show live experience. Right. I went to scuba theater. Yeah. Okay. So I gotta add it in there. Look how vibrant I look. Okay, you kid, you gotta have confidence to worship like this. So after that I took them on the journey And I tell ’em, snap, clap, sing, move, and give money, you know, you gotta give a little tip. (22m 26s): Now some of us got kids the Pampers and teeth, you know, so yeah, I do a little standup comedy hosting all of it together. So it’s a musical experience and so I always let them up from the beginning. What, what the, what the house was on. And the last thing I say is, oh, you ready for the show? Yeah. You ready? And we get moving. Yeah. I mean it sounds like transcendent, it’s essentially cool. Like how, what’s your process like of putting together, like you’re, you’re weaving together music and comedy and storytelling and fa and fashion and spirituality and faith. Like, like what, how do you, like what’s your process like? How do you tap into all of that and pull it together? That’s a good question. I think the most important thing is, is I always stay tapped into my face first because, yeah, I stay grounded because being, I’m, I’m a preacher and a street preacher, so for me it’s like being, like, it’s hard to tap into that and then untap out of it. (23m 17s): And that’s the process that people don’t understand. I’m, I’m, I’m making myself physically, spiritually vulnerable so that I can provide for what the people need. So opening up myself, opening up myself, open myself every single time. So one, I stay true to myself. I already asked for this and the Lord said yes. And I said yes. And the sense of where I’m going. So I always go with the flow. I always, it’s always an experience, always a message because I want people to understand what’s happening. So sometimes I’ll say things I won’t remember because I’m a prophet And I always tell you if I might never remember this because it’s not for me, it’s for you, God, save the Lord. So for me, balancing all these things together is just, it’s, it’s an experience because I, I, it’s easy to burn out, but this is really my passion in my life And I wake up every day excited to do this, excited to be me, excited to go on this next journey, next experience and tap in. (24m 9s): And because I have someone who loves and supports me, having a great support system is important. My partner, we’re about to make four years in August and it’s just been a journey in that itself. Watch off of that suit you go see, we go through real life situations, things that real couples go through. And I think it’s important that people see a great representation of love. And this is why my partner And I Ray, we’re working on a, our community, I would say a community collective called 4K, four couples only. It’s a collective for L-G-B-T-Q-A, couples and couples, straight couples or allies of us. But we do events where we have couples only in a space where we can enjoy each other’s time and each other’s company because there’s not a lot of couples in our community that I know, I other people how many gay couples, you know, how many couples, you know there a lot of people dunno out of couples who are in our community. (24m 53s): So something has to give. And if me and my man gotta be Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King too, if our community would love and some people love is more, is important to bring back the love, the how important love is. And we will. And so we do these events. So if you’re a couple out there, we have a Facebook four, just reach out to me on my Instagram and say I wanna be a part of it. There’s a Facebook group on call 4K, four couples only. But I think I have to invite you to the group. I’m still trying to figure that part out. I’m new to the Facebook part of it. But yeah, like we we’re created a community of love And I feel like you just have to do what you have to do. And if you have to be the pillar for it, you have to. But it’s time to make change. We need to know that love is there and if you love yourself, you can find the love you need. You can manifest the love you want. Stop being so negative, putting things out there. I’m never gonna find, I’m never gonna, you can have anything you want if you believe it because manifestation is real. (25m 33s): You just gotta believe it. Yeah. Amen. You mentioned your, like your partner Ray that you do a lot of work with, he’s your partner also. You were on the show together. What was it like, like not just putting yourself up there, but putting your, like being on this reality show and, and putting your relationship with Ray and that dynamic between the two of you out, like you talked about a little bit about earlier about being like vulnerable in your, in your show and as an artist, but also I’m sure like this is like that time d kind of Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was, it wasn’t easy because again, I’m a very public person, so my, my, my private life is private And I keep it private for a reason, but it just sort of aligned itself where it just was time for me to finally go out there and tell my story and tell the truth and put it out there what’s happening because it’s, it’s a lot of people who need to see what looks like them and representation of themselves and, and know that they’ll be okay and they’ll be comfortable with it. (26m 29s): And I felt like I wanted to be able to be that and to, for Ray to finally come around full circle and do that and then see himself back and realize he was happy with his decision. Like, oh my God, not like he regretted it. It felt good because we just did a podcast recently and they asked that question like, how, like, did you guys have a fight after the show film or did you guys regret doing anything, like saying anything or doing anything? We didn’t because we were authentically ourselves and you know, and, and real about how we felt. And we do that in our relationship at, at home. And so that comes out through the TV and so it’s important that you have some strong, you have to have a foundation to stand on. You gotta have a good foundation for your house. If you ain’t got a foundation for your house, when the women blow, it’s gonna fall down. So you gotta start have a strong foundation and that relationship is different and it’s not easy, but being able to go through that journey on this process played out is inspiring to me as well because it inspiring. (27m 18s): It’s gonna be an inspiring to other people. So I figured that the message is bigger. It was, it was bigger than us. Yeah. And what’s like, what’s one message or a few messages that you hope viewers of Alphabet Soup take away from it? Take away from watching it. One, I hope you, I hope you understand like in in the trailer, if you don’t love yourself, I’d have you gonna love somebody else. Start with that. So you gotta love you first friend because there’s no way you can live somebody else in like, and us being l lgbtq going through the journeys of transition of getting out the house to come out the closet in the church, it’s a lot. And so you really gotta understand that you could really be in a moment of time to find the person for you, but you don’t love yourself enough to be able to understand and realize what’s happening. You miss the window of opportunity. Sometimes you don’t get it again. (27m 59s): So it’s important to one, walk away with love yourself first so that you can be able to receive the love you want. Because dating out here ain’t easy. Two, be authentically yourself. You wake up, you, I tell people all the time I’m gonna do my shows are my live experience. You wake up, you, it don’t cost you no money to be you, it free. You just gotta believe anything you wanna do and put your mind to it. You can do it and you can achieve it. And so be your best self. Because I’ve been told no by the four American Idol, the Voice, America’s Got Talent, all these shows. 23 times I’ve been told no. But I’m so talented and so great. I’m still living my dreams. I got my own band. I’ve been for 10 years now. I’ve been putting other artists on. I’ve been doing amazing things because your talent not based on somebody else, it’s based on you, your faith and your trusting and believing in yourself. (28m 39s): ’cause God gave you the gift, not somebody else. And so walk in it and don’t be afraid. ’cause God gives you everything you need to make it happen. Don’t be afraid, walk in it, stand in it and walk in it. It ain’t gonna be easy. It wasn’t easy for Jesus to walk through the stand and then he wasn’t easy to come to hang himself on under the cross for, for us. But at the end of the day, there has to be, you have to stand for something or your fault for anything. Yeah. You gotta be able to say, this is what I’m doing, this is what I’m standing, like you’re standing in your faith and like you trust God and you stand, you gotta be able to stand up the same way. And I feel like that is what’s important. Take that away. And last but not least be able to have an open mind. Like the world is bigger than your two eyes right here and what you see in front of you. Like there’s so much money you can learn. And then like I learned the ignorance of that. We were taught, we were all taught ignorance. (29m 21s): I don’t care who you’re, where you’re from the world. We’re born being taught ignorance based on who we’re and where we’re from and who our family is. And so learn to unlearn all that negativity because at the end of the day, you only got one life to live and you’re not a cat, you ain’t got nine, you have one, it’s your life to live. And every day you get a to wake up And I, I could do today. And so, you know, age is nothing but a number. A lot of people say I’m too old, I’m too age is nothing but a number. Cheryl Lee Ralph said, if you can’t do it in your thirties, 20 through your thirties, you can’t do it in your thirties, do it in your forties. You can’t do it to your forties in your fifties. Can’t do it in your fifties. Do it your sixties. Like just do it like yeah, don’t ever stop doing it. Like your time is your time and if you believe this is what you’re supposed to be doing, just keep working. (30m 1s): That is why I’ve never given up because I know for a fact that the age has nothing to do with what my gift is gonna do for the world. Mm. And so I just stay focused on, on the prize looking forward. Because if you’re looking backwards in the past and on around you, on the side with the struggle, you can’t go forward. God’s trying to bless you. Look where you’re going. Listen, stay in tune and focus, you know? Yeah. Stop. Listen to everything else around you. Focus on what yourself meditate something. Yeah. I’m, I’m turning 40 in two weeks, so I’ve been reminding myself that a lot recently. Like, oh Wow, come on now I’m still be there, Have age just to number, not I’m still here. Like I got more life ahead of me. We got things to do. Keep on, keep on on. Yeah, Exactly. (30m 41s): I’m soon be 40, I’m 30, I turned 39 this year. So I understand like when he gets to those close age ranges, it’s like you start to question yourself. Like my, my biggest fear was being 30 and having the show for it. And my daughter was born a couple days before my 30th birthday. So it’s like I was with that fear for so long and look, I got the greatest gift of the world. Like the Lord trusts me enough to be a dad and for me to have a kit. So age is nothing but an ember. You can do anything you wanna do. If you really believe it, it’s just like, just don’t lose, just don’t lose faith in it. Just don’t lose the hope in it. You can do anything. You, as long as you still preach, you can do anything you want to do. The world in society and our family, everyone teaches us. Oh, with the weights on you, that’s look you supposed to overcome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (31m 22s): So it’s okay that you’re gonna go through these trends. You’re always in a transitional, you’re always transitioning, you’re always on a on on a rotating like circle. You know what I’m saying? And that’s the part that you have to understand. You, you, you, you’re never gonna be the same. You gonna always evolve. So as you evolve, you gotta check in with yourself. I like to say I’m getting ready before you got you evolving now in a different Yeah. Decade. So how do I check in with yourself? How do I, what, what does this look like for me? Where am I going and what do I didn’t do that I don’t need to do? Or are the waste of my time and what do I need to do now to focus on where I’m going? And like those little things will make a change. It’s not the negativity of age because they ain’t number because you be plus something. Yeah. So it yeah, yeah, yeah. Has nothing to do with ages more about you as a person and how you overcome those things being thrown at you. (32m 6s): You know, you’ve already, you made it about to make 40, so I know you Overcome it. You know how many queer men didn’t make it to 40? Like what a blessing. Like god damn. That is My whole point. Yeah. You’re overcome, you overcame it. Yeah. So now what’s the next thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Man, pressure. Pressure makes diamonds. I totally like some of the hardest parts. Like they sucked. I wouldn’t, I didn’t wanna go through them, but also like they formed me into to who I am. So I You wouldn’t be who you’re, You’re all you Exactly. That Pass the points one push. Yeah. You wouldn’t be able to stand here and be confident and strong enough to stand here on your own podcast. One of the longest one lgbtq, come on. You wouldn’t be able to do that if you did not stand and believe in that. So shout out to you. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I mean, not, not to make it about me, but like 12 years ago when we started this, like people were not happy that we were talking about sex and religion and queerness. (32m 51s): They were like, we wanna be just good. Well we’ll just be good gay Christians and like, don’t talk about polyamory, don’t talk about sex or like abolish the prisons. Like feed all the people have radical love, self-acceptance, like open relationships. It’s all like, and they’re like, you, You don’t even know how many people that you’ve, you’ve impacted though being able to be the voice because you too were the voice to be able to make change for a whole new world. Like, I’m even talking to you about this, it seems, I’m like, like I, It’s cool. Yeah. I’ve never been able to actually talk to someone who would understand and be able to go through it. So for me it’s like, that’s what I’m saying. Like I, I-I-I-I-I understand where you’re coming from, but somebody had to do it and you did it so that you could be where you’re, yeah. (33m 32s): I remember eight years ago were like on some like live webinar or something And I referenced being polyamorous. People were like, I’ve never heard another Christian out loud in public say that they were polyamorous. And I was like, hello. Hi to me. How you doing? You, you mentioned like a moment ago, like in one of your like three points was like the, the importance of loving yourself. Like how are some of the ways that you’ve learned to love yourself, like in worlds that are like stacked against us sometimes. Like what are some of the ways you’ve cultivated that, that, that self love For me, I realized that I can’t change things that I have no control over. So I, and knowing and learning that it changed my life. (34m 13s): And then ultimately the biggest change was becoming a addiction and abuse coach. Because I went through so much in my life that I had to deal with those. I was angry And I didn’t know, I was angry when I was angry. So I had to go through a lot to realize, you know what, this is what that is, this is what that is. And I came into a point where I realized things like emotional incest and the abuse I was really getting. I didn’t know it was abuse. And so I said, you know what? Now that I know this, I’m gonna take my power back. So I set boundaries, new boundaries for myself and moving forward with around. And so I said, okay, even with my mom, dad, boundaries, Boundaries, boundaries. So important. Yeah. And My mom’s only son and she has three kids. I have a 20 sibling. I’m my mom’s only son. And so she loves and adores me. (34m 54s): But I have to say, listen mom, I’m at a new place in my life, a new bond in my life where I’m tired of being your son and your boyfriend. I just wanna be your son. Just wanna be your son. I just need my mom. So I’m gonna let the boyfriend go. ’cause I need to need you to be my mom And I, we gonna have to figure out what that looks like, but let’s just do it because that’s what I need for, I have my own family, I have own relationship, I have my own things I need to focus on And I don’t wanna focus that energy that anymore. And the same thing with my dad. My dad, I love my dad. I, my dad’s oldest kid, And I keep saying oldest because I’m the oldest of my twin sister And I, but I’m the oldest all the kids. And so me, my dad are very close, so I’m my kids. He looks like he’s, he looks young, they have us young, so we look like brothers. And so I’m like, he was just here in town actually last week for the first time in a long time. And I was hosting karaoke and he gotta come sing with me. He don’t even sing. (35m 35s): It was interesting. It was dope. So it’s like, I tell my dad the same thing. I don’t wanna be your brother and your son anymore. I just want you to be my dad. Like, I need to separate this so that I can move on with my life because you’ve given me responsibility for too long And I don’t check on anymore. I got my own things to where about. So boom. So you have to come those realizations. So when I realized that And I became my whole self, now I’m able to operate and walk and move in a different way to let myself, in a way I can check in And I can know what the boundaries are for me. I know what, what doesn’t feel right. I know what, you know, what I need to do to change it. So taking more accountability, being more responsible. And so I, I use those things to one, live the be a living example to teach people how to be better. What a beautiful, what a beautiful message. So like Alphabet Soup, it’s out now on Peacock and Amazon Prime. (36m 17s): Troy works music on Instagram. Like where else can folks find you and like what else have you got coming up? Yeah, so basically again, all social media at Troy weeks music. So I have, I have a few shows coming up next month. Again, a live of experience coming up hosting karaoke again next month coming up. There’s a lot of activity, a lot of musical activities happening. So come and check it out. I also working on getting a full launch with my product, but uni it’s a unisex Fragrance that I created. I’ve been doing Fragrance for 10 years And I decided to finally do my own because it was like this muscle. Good. So not only is it in a spray form, it’s in an oil form, it’s in the body, shower, wash, body gel, lotion, body butter, massage oil. So full body, head to toe smelled good, smelled great uni, I wanna Check it out. (37m 0s): Yeah. And then also again, I run McDonald’s Gospel Fest. That was that. And so now I started working on the shows, working on getting uni off the ground. I’m working on my album soon. So I’m really, I have a full body of work. I’ve got, I’ve got tons of music out videos s with other people. Yeah. But it’s time that I’m finally working on my album, the Book of Life. It’s been 10 years in the making. And so babe, when that hit the ground, it’s gonna be on and popping. And y’all gonna be looking for me at your local town because when my album comes up, my goal is to go on tour to different towns, different states, different cities, and do the tour weeks live experience. And I always do, but add my own music in. Now people can hear my music, know my songs, and make it a real live experience and feature some artists from different towns. So get yourselves ready if you’re out there, if you’re an artist, check my music out. (37m 41s): If you’re s saying private vibe, I’m definitely looking forward to collaborative with artist. Y’all can, watching you on Peacock, Amazon. Now, I’m assuming y’all can watch me on the Complete Network Looking, complete Network. The show is called Complete Boss Bootcamp. That’s why I had uni had a billboard out in Atlanta for us. So if you’re in Atlanta, you might have seen my billboard out there from being on the show, still being a dad and loving it, loving my man and loving my life. I So check, check me out guys. Again, I love connecting with people. I’m not afraid to talk, ask questions. You can just, I’m, I’m touchable reachable, I answer my own dms and all that. I ain’t got nobody doing it for me. So let’s talk if you guys have any questions, and if you’re ever in New York City for the moment of time, come the two weeks. (38m 26s): Yeah, thank you for all that. We’ll put all that in the description of the episode and then we like to close out by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy these days? One thing that’s bringing me joy is knowing that me being, living in my truth, specifically with this moment in time, something like this is gonna really be able to make change. Like, I’ve tried so hard to be the change and now that I don’t, I, being myself is actually making the change. So I, I’m bringing joy doing, spreading the word every day with about Alphabet Soup because it’s bringing light and opening minds to people that they’ve never seen before. Especially when they see it to me, it’s like, oh, well Troy’s normal. I I know him if he’s, you know, do this. And maybe it’s something like I may be interested in too. I don’t know. So like, to be able to wake up every day and inspire people gives me so much joy. (39m 8s): So that’s what it is for me. Keeping it, I’m keeping it normal. Thank you for being here, Troy, and thank you for being a part of Alphabet Soup. It’s such a, like the show in general is such a beautiful show that like showcases queer life from so many different angles and, and like the love and the beauty of it and the joy, but also like that you keep it real in the show and like the drama and the difficulty Real, The the, the struggle of a dating scene sometimes. And like it’s just, it feels like so real but also like so beautiful and so hopeful and so I love it. And you’re such a great part in this, in the show. And so yeah, thanks for everything. Yes, Y’all go watch it. Please go watch it, go watch it, go watch it. You really enjoy it. And this season two is already done, so at some point that’ll be all. (39m 48s): But please engage, tell somebody else about it. I think it’s important that we spread the word so that people can know that we’re out here, we’re queer, we’re loud, and it’s this so let’s do it. Yeah, I’m hooked. It’s such, I’m like, every episode ends and I’m like, oop, I gotta, I gotta keep watching. Like it just, right. What’s that? There’s some good, there’s some good cliffhangers in there. It’s good. It’s a good show Suck. Food stamps. Yeah, from the Trailer. One of my favorites, so yeah. Awesome. Alright, well thanks again for being here and links to all of Troy’s stuff will be in the episode description and we’ll talk to you next week. Oh Yeah. See you guys. Thank you so much for having me. Just a reminder that we’re hosting another three week cohort, all about integrating queer sex and non-monogamous relationships with our values and our faith and our spirituality. (40m 32s): It’s called Poly Possibilities. And we’re starting later this month. We would love to have you join. It’s happening inside of our community and Learning hub. Learn more at Queer Theology dot com slash polyposis. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Finding God Outside the Walls of Church with Troy Weekes from Alphabet Soup appeared first on Queer Theology.

We get a lot of questions about hell, the rapture, and end times. So awhile back, we did a series on Scary Things. For this week, we have another throw back episode from this series. For this one, we’ll focus on the Rapture and the End of the World.  We’re talking all about end times, the rapture, and other “scary” things from the Bible. We are certain that no matter the religion or faith you were brought up in, you’ve probably heard something or another about the end of the world and in this episode, Brian and Fr. Shay talk about what they were taught, whether they believe in the rapture, and a hilarious (twisted?) rapture-themed practical joke from Shay’s childhood.   Resources:.  Listen to all the Scary Things episodes: https://www.queertheology.com/podcast/424/  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello, hello. Hello. As you can tell from the title of this episode, we are coming to you today with another Throwback episode. There’s just so many gems that we want to share some more of them with you. And this one in particular we picked because it touches upon some themes that we’ve been seeing a lot of inside of the sanctuary community and the discussions that folks have been having, the questions that they’ve been asking, the ways in which they’ve been responding to stuff that’s going on in the world and in their lives, as well as some of the comments we’ve gotten on our Instagram, some emails that we’ve received recently that this sort of like idea of hell or disappointing God or being punished because of something we’ve done wrong looms large over many of us. (1m 13s): And that is true for folks that even into intellectually don’t believe that there’s a hell or intellectually don’t believe that God is punishing them. Still, we are finding that sometimes there’s like some lingering fear going on, or just like not sure how to respond to people. If there’s a well-meaning parent or friend or uncle who is like really concerned about the fate of your eternal soul that can sort of like question of like, is God mad at me? Is God gonna punish me now or after I die? Is something that like looms large for folks? And so we wanted to highlight this series that we did a few years ago called like Scary Things that You may have Learned in Church. It’s a four part series. We’re going to air the first episode for you right now as a Throwback. (1m 54s): If you would like to listen to the remainder of that series, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Scary Things and we’ll have them all linked in one place for you. There. Also, inside of our Learning Community hub, we have an A place to discuss the podcast. I mean, these episodes also live in there. That’s in the free for all area. So if you would like to discuss this episode of the one other ones that you listen to with us, with other folks who are also listening to it, going over to my greati com and create a free account while you’re there, you can also sign up for Spiritual Study Hall and or Sanctuary Collective if you want to get access to the community or get access to sort of our like OnDemand library resources. It’s sort of like a masterclass for spiritual nerdery and sacred storytelling and things like that. (2m 36s): So, and it also obviously supports this work. So without further ado, here is the first episode in the Scary Things series. We are entering another special series and this is about Scary Things that you might have been taught in church. We’re gonna cover four parts over the next four episodes, the Rapture and End Times Satan Hell and Eternal Damnation. And it’s, yeah, it’s a little bit inspired by the format is gonna be a little bit inspired by the, you’re wrong about podcasts if you’ve ever heard that. And so for each episode, either Shea or I will be sort of like lead me the other through the various Scary Things we and you at home might have been taught at church. (3m 20s): And so today we’re gonna start with the rapture in the end times. Shay, this is your episode, so take it away. Oh, I’m so excited. I feel like anyone who has listened to this podcast for more than a hot second knows that I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about the rapture. And so, but I would love to hear from you, like I grew up in a very specific tradition. Brian, you grew up in a, an evangelical Presbyterian church, so a a bit of a more mainline tradition. And so I would love to know like what were you taught about the rapture? Like is, was that even a thing for your church growing up? Yeah, I don’t think that the rapture was super a thing that was taught from the pulpit or in Sunday school. (4m 4s): It definitely like wasn’t emphasized in like official church channels. Right? But I was also like, I was evangelical Presbyterian, so it was kind of this like, how are you both right? It was like double predestination, but also you have to go tell all of your friends about Jesus. And so, but the rapture was kind of like something that like generally was floating around in the ether. And at some like the end times or the left behind books or something that I never read, we definitely didn’t read as like a group, but that, that I had heard of, knew about people talked about. (4m 45s): And so a lot of the sort of my exposure to end times teaching was much more sort of like speculative amongst my peers rather than something that was drilled in from the church leadership. And I remember, but I must have internalized it because I remember talking to my parents who converted to evangelicalism as teenagers And I was like, listen, I just have a, I have a feeling on my heart, God has put it on my heart that Jesus is gonna come back before any of the four of us die. So we don’t have to worry about death and dying and being separated because like, I just know, I just really believe that Jesus is gonna come back and we’re all gonna get to go straight to heaven and skip the dying part. (5m 28s): And so, I dunno, like I think that I more so than being like magically suped up, I think I was maybe more along the lines of that like Jesus would come down first. Hmm. And like what, what if anything were you taught about either how the world would end, what would happen when Jesus came back? Like what was kind of in the, in the zeitgeist about that? Yeah, we didn’t talk about it that much. I mean, I think that like something about Jesus coming down, like I have like vivid imageries, like maybe he would be riding a horse or a chariot or I like a unicorn. (6m 12s): I do know that like when I was a kid, I used to see like when I would like, you know how sometimes like rays of light will sort of like poke through the clouds and like there’s enoughness that you can actually see the sun beam. I’d be like, oh, do you think? Like, do you think Jesus is about to come down over there? But I, so it wasn’t like volcanoes exploding or mass wart. It was like, oh, I think I’ll just sort of likes descend. And I, I do know that I think, I think it Christian, like this type of Christian talk often points to images from Revelation. I have this idea that that’s where a lot of this end times and or rapture imagery comes from. And so like there’s like something about the mark of the beast, something about 6, 6 6, like maybe something about like war, but it wasn’t like, I didn’t have like one specific cohesive narrative. (7m 6s): And then I also was like, they were like, there was, I think it was Carmen like Carmen song being the champion, like the is also sort of like part of that whole sort of like zeitgeist. We are gonna put a link to the champion music video in the show notes because if you did not grow up with Carmen, there is no adequate way for us to explain this man to you nor to explain his, and I’m using air quotes music to, to you. So I would just like go watch video. I would Have your mind, I would blast the champion And I would just kind of like, not dance, but just sort of like, you can’t see me. (7m 48s): I like, like I was a fighter, right? Like sort of like bouncing around the room, like imagining like Satan in the ring gonna get killed by Jesus the warrior. Yes. My church youth group of course led by me did a human video to the champion and many others of course. So, you know, I grew up very much in a rapture tradition, which is interesting and we will talk more about that in a moment. You know, I very much believe that the rapture was coming, that at some point the, so the idea was like at some point Jesus would like come partially back to earth and that anyone who was the right type of Christian would rise to meet Jesus in the air. (8m 35s): So Jesus would only, he would be like floating. Yes. Okay. Basically. And we would rise to meet him and that like whatever you were doing, you would just like be taken up. And so if you were driving a car, like a car would crash, if you were washing dishes, the sink would be on. And so I, I don’t know if this was a thing where you or Brian, but like there would, there were the, these bumper stickers that said in case of rapture, this car will be unmanned that were like super, super popular. Oh wow. People would put them on their cars. Right. And so like this is something, the thing that I remember so vividly as a kid is that I was taught that like whatever was earthly would be left behind. (9m 19s): So not only would we like meet Jesus in the air, But we would meet Jesus in the air naked, which was like terrifying to me as a small trans child who was like, yeah, super uncomfortable in my body. And like nervous about that is very specific. Yeah. I was like, I don’t think I, I, I don’t know if I want this, but I also remember as a kid, like this vivid fear of if I couldn’t find my mother because she was like, I don’t know, outside or like wandered off in the grocery store, I was like, oh shit, I’ve been left behind my family. Did I have to tell this story because it’s so my family and so fucked up. We decided one year my grandfather was like a super, super prankster. (10m 3s): He loved practical jokes. He took April Fools very, very seriously. And so one year the entire family decided to prank him and to make him think he’d been left behind. It was an elaborate prank. So I lived right next door to my grandparents. So we set it up. We knew that every Sunday night he would get home from church and then he would go out and feed the pets. And so we set it up the both of our houses we like dropped closed where they were left the fridge door open, left the sink running. We told everyone in his church and all of the family to not answer the phone if he called. Like this was an elaborate whoa like multi-family friend. (10m 43s): And looking back on it, I feel like it was a little shady like that. That’s like a pretty cruel prank. He didn’t, he like saw someone slipping onto the back porch and it was ruined. But aw. Anyway, you know rapture, rapture thinking was really huge. And along with that, the end times, so what’s the real truth about the rapture? Like there are several different views about when the rapture will happen. There’s this kind of pre tribulation idea that like Jesus will come back, then everything will go to shit. There’s a post tribulation view that says like everything will go to shit birth and then Jesus will come back. (11m 23s): Hmm. So my tradition very much grew up with this pre tribulation view. Jesus would come back, he would snatch up the real Christians, hell would like rain on earth for a bunch of years and we would just get to skip it. I’ve heard something about a thousand years Is that, is that this or where does this a thousand years factor in? There is a thousand years. I think that this is the, like the tribulation will will last for a thousand years. Okay. That some people can get saved during that time, but that they are like still stuck. So it’s like really important that you get saved before the rapture happens so that you get to avoid all of the bad stuff. (12m 5s): And so that was really like the left behind series, right? Was that it started with a bunch of people getting taken away, but then all of these people were left to deal with the rise of the antichrist and, and the people that got saved who then were like fighting the antichrist, like still had to live through the tribulation, I guess is punishment for like not getting their act together sooner. Which also feels like dickish sketchy to me. Yeah. Antithetical to, anyway, so there’s like two main verses other than the whole of revelation, but two main verses that led people to think that there was going to be a rapture. (12m 48s): First Thessalonians four 15 through 17, which says according to the Lord’s word we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord certainly will certainly not proceed. Those who have fallen asleep for the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first after that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. And then the other is from Matthew 24 37 through 40 and as were the days of Noah. So she’ll be the coming of the son of man for as in those days, which were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving a marriage until the day that Noah entered into the ark. (13m 33s): And they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. So shall be the coming of the son of man then shall two men be in the field. One is taken, one is left. So it iss kind of like, you know, end times judgment is coming. Yeah. But the reality is that the guy who first proposed and made really popular, the rapture, the pre tribulation rapture in particular didn’t come up with that until 1827. And this is why I get mad. It’s like this is not something that was handed down from Jesus. This is a very, a relatively new understanding. His name was John Nelson Darby. He was a part of the Plymouth Brethren in England, which is why my church was so hooked on this. (14m 18s): ’cause we were part of the, that Brethren movement we had broken off. But again, like ca coming from a tradition that didn’t actually teach me the history of my own tradition, I like didn’t know that this was a unique thing that the Plymouth brethren believed. I just thought it was like the truth. Right? Which is why I think it’s so important that we know our history and where we come from. This view was then kind of spread around even more. It became really popular through the Scofield reference Bible. I remember my grandfather having that Bible and and that’s really what, what pushed this view forward. Most mainline and Catholic traditions don’t have any view of the rapture either pre or post or mid right. (15m 6s): It’s just like not a thing for them. The all of the kind of tribulation rapture ideas are almost always evangelical traditions and, and Baptist traditions. And much of what we internalize about the rapture is really modern. And it comes more from pop culture, right. From that novel or that terrible film, A Thief in The Night, which I know many youth groups were forced to watch from how Lindsay’s late Great Planet Earth and of course from the left behind series. And I think that, like for me, the thing that like sticks out for me is that in many ways the rapture is really convenient, right? (15m 46s): Yeah. It’s this idea that like real Christians are in a secret club, they’re gonna be protected from all of the shit that goes down during the end times. And our sole mission is to get as many people saved as possible so that they get snatched up to, but also it pretty much lets them off the hook for having to do anything to care about the world. We don’t have to care about creation because it’s all gonna be destroyed anyway. Right? Like, so there’s this idea that we can do whatever we want as long as we get as many people saved because like God’s gonna come back. Jesus come back, take us. And that’s gonna be that. Yeah. And we’re gonna be protected. (16m 27s): It reminds me of billionaires trying to like build spaceships to get off the planet. Like Right. It’s exactly the same. Like Jesus is our billionaire spaceship. Yeah. Yeah. Some something that sticks out to me in these as in those passage us that you read, I can see how folks who support the rapture would like point to these passage us. But like when you actually read them, like they’re kind of a little wonky. Like I don’t really know what to do with them, but they don’t actually say what the Rapt people say. Like, and this one from First Thessalonians, it’s like, it’s not saying that like the Christians go up first and then the non-Christians get left behind. It’s like the dead people go up first and then the alive people go up after them. (17m 12s): Like Yeah. And there’s also, I mean I think that like there was all of these views both in the gospels and in Paul’s letters about the fact that like Jesus’s return was imminent. Yeah. They believed that he was gonna come back before any of them died. Yeah. And clearly that was incorrect. Yeah. And so I think that there’s also this sense of people trying to make sense of what they had been taught from Jesus, what they believed about, like what Jesus’ work was and what his resurrection accomplished. That was murky. And I think that in some cases we, they just got it wrong. (17m 54s): Yeah. Like Paul definitely thought, he like says explicitly in his letters that are in the Bible that like, he’s not gonna die. ’cause he says it’s gonna come back before Paul dies. And like he was just wrong. Right. And I think that like part of the impulse of evangelicals is that they can’t actually admit that, right? Yeah. Because then they would have to say, well, there are errors in the Bible and they can’t do that. So it becomes this like, we have to then create this other thing that makes sense of this thing that we’re reading and then it just like spirals out from There. Yeah. And I think that like there’s, there is though then this other sense of like, okay, well if the rapture isn’t real, like if that was made up or that was a misguided notion, yeah. (18m 38s): There is still this sense of like, but there are going to be the end times, right? Like there’s, God’s still gonna come back and judge everyone. The world is still gonna be destroyed. Like there’s still gonna be, I don’t know, you brought up Revelation, like, so Brian, what else were you taught about the end times or the book of Revelation? Yeah, I Guess like the, this whatever sort of like thousand years things was not necessarily like maybe, or maybe not what like was connected to the rapture, like could or cannot be, but it was sort of a, you could believe that separately that there was like something about like an antichrist I guess. Like, and it was, I guess like not clear was the antichrist like a demon that was going to like, that we would be able to like see as a demon, like look sort of non-human or would it be a politician like with Brooklyn, the Antichrist or Obama, the Antichrist, like, and like insert any, you know, liberal ish politician. (19m 41s): I also know that like in my church, this was probably like less in like the main service and more just sort of like in youth group stuff. Like where it was a little bit less, you know, controlled. They were like, there was like this whole thing about Hebrew and Hebrew letters corresponding to numbers and like looking for secret messages in the Bible. And if you like, put all of these numbers together, like, or these wor like secret, there’s like sort of like there was this something about like secret messages in the Hebrew Bible that would like tell us about the future. (20m 21s): And so like end times mark of the beast 6, 6, 6, we’re all sort of floating around. But I don’t think I had a specific vision of like the world would end or like what that would look like. I do know that at some point after I left that tradition, someone was telling me that like in their tradition it was about how Earth got like restored and, but Earth became paradise. And I was like, oh, that’s not, I didn’t, I didn’t learn that. I didn’t learn that. But I’m aware That that is something that some folks believe. Yeah. I re I remember that like ATM cards were yeah. People who were worried about ATM cards being the mark of the beast for a while, right? (21m 1s): ’cause you couldn’t, you couldn’t buy or sell. Right? Yeah. That was part of it that without the market of the beast, you couldn’t buy or sell. And people were anxious about ATM cards. Now everyone’s got the fricking a m cards. But now I think some people are like, oh, well the vaccine cards are the mark of the beast because unvaccinated people are being discriminated against, which is just ridiculous. Anyway. Yeah. So I I I mean, I think almost all of our views of the end times come from really poor readings of the book of Revelation. We have to understand that like the book of Revelation was written under Empire and under occupation by a person who had been exiled to an island and left on his own for already like, for sedition. (21m 43s): So of course he can’t come out and write a street against Rome and the Emperor without getting himself killed. And so of course he like writes about this vision that he has. And so everything in the book of Revelation is not this like wonky ridiculous prophecy of some future where there’s gonna be dragons and four horsemen and the horror of Babylon, right? Yeah. It’s all like coded language for what he was already experiencing, what they were already experiencing. And when you imagine being from an oppressed and marginalized community and you look around and you’re like, yeah, we’re like already in the end times. (22m 25s): Yeah. The world is already ending. I’ve been hearing a lot of like indigenous activists talking about like, the apocalypse has already come. Like we are in it. We’ve been living in it. And the ways that the, the world is being treated, creation is being treated is like part of the end times part of this narrative. And that makes a lot of sense to me. I too did not grow up with a tradition that said like the earth was gonna be restored. Like no, it was, it was the, the earth doesn’t matter. The earth is gonna burn. So like we can do whatever we want to it. We can pillage and destroy and carbon emissions, et cetera, because God’s gonna destroy the earth. (23m 8s): But what we actually see, if you really read Revelation, even if you do read it as more of a future thinking prophetic book, and in Paul’s letters too, we actually get this sense of restoration, right? That, that it’s not that earth is gonna be destroyed and that we’re gonna go to heaven. That actually the, the idea is that we’re going to get a new, potentially a new earth, but that like earth is still in existence. We don’t actually, our, our eternal dwelling is in this restored earth, not in some heaven far away. (23m 50s): Which was mind blowing to me when I learned that and read that as an adult. Hmm. I will say, I know people have a lot of feelings about NT Wright. I think that some of his scholarship is not great, but his book surprised my hope is actually really, really brilliantly beautiful. And I, I wanna share some things from that book because I, it, it has really impacted my view of what happens at the end. And so one of the things that he says is we need to remind ourselves that throughout the Bible, not least in the Psalms, God’s coming judgment is a good thing. It’s something to be celebrated and long for yearned over. It causes people to shout for joy and the trees at the field to clap their hands. (24m 32s): Because in a world of systemic injustice, bullying, violence, arrogance and oppression, the thought that there might come a day when the wicked are firmly put in their place and the poor and weak are given their due is the best news there can be faced with a world in rebellion, a world full of exploitation and wickedness. A good God must be a god of judgment. Hmm. And I’m like, ugh. Right. Yeah. Like this is, this is it. Right. And I think that again, this is a reminder that the Bible is written by oppressed and marginalized people living in context of oppression. And so when we’re talking about judgment, we are talking about those things. It’s, it’s not for like rich, white, politically powerful Republican evangelicals to be like, those gays are gonna get theirs. (25m 19s): It’s about no, actually the people that are like squandering the earth and are being oppressive are gonna get theirs. And like that’s a good thing. The other thing that, that NT Wright talks about a lot And I think is, is really evidenced in the writings of Paul, is that part of the, part of the responsibility of being a Christian, being a follower of Jesus, of believing in the restoration of all things, is that it puts a responsibility on us to be a part of that restoration and a part of that restoration as far as like climate change goes a part of that restoration as far as like art and beauty goes a part of that restoration as far as justice and political systems and, and making things right that like a responsibility isn’t to get a bunch of other people saved. (26m 15s): So we get taken away in the great snatch, it’s actually to like do the work of being a restorative person. And that when we do that work, like we should be the most art filled and beauty filled and joy filled. Because that’s, that’s the, that’s the work, right? That we’re making something beautiful and and amazing. And that, like, one of the things that he also says is like part of getting used to living in the post Easter world, part of getting used to letting Easter change your life, your attitudes, your thinking, your behavior is getting used to the cosmology that is now unveiled. Heaven and earth are made for each other and at certain points they intersect and interlock. (26m 60s): Jesus is the ultimate such point. We as Christians are meant to be such points derived from him. The spirit, the sacraments and the scriptures are given. So the double life of Jesus, both heavenly and earthly can become ours as well already in the present. His idea is that like heaven and earth now are already acting upon one another. They’re interlocked that the work is overlapping. That sometimes we can see it and sometimes we can’t, but like we’re already living in this end times because of Jesus’s resurrection. That to me is a really beautiful thing. I know that that’s maybe a little wooey for you, Brian. Yeah, But my jaw’s dropped. It’s so beautiful. (27m 40s): Like, I, it’s a little right, like, I don’t know. I don’t know. Like, I don’t know. But I, there is something really that speaks to me about that. And I think to me like this then makes the idea of the end times the rapture, God’s judgment. Like none of that is scary anymore. It’s actually beautiful and hopeful and empowering and impactful and like, helps me to navigate the world in a different way, in a, in a more joy-filled way, but also a, I think a more engaged way. And that to me is, is really, really exciting. I love It. I love it. So next week we’re gonna turn our attention to Satan and get ready y’all. (28m 21s): ’cause I have 14 pages of notes. We are gonna go on a journey. I can’t wait to do that with you. That is all for this week’s episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Remember, if you would like to listen to the whole series, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Scary Things and we’ll compile all those in one place. Also, a reminder that we can only do this show and the other work that we do at Queer Theology dot com because of support from folks just like you. So if you would be interested in supporting this work to help it be sustainable for us, we would cherish that support. We notice each and every dollar, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash community to join the community. That’s one way to support. (29m 1s): Or if you just wanna kick us some bucks, go to patreon.com/ Queer Theology. Thanks again and we will see you next week. So we’ll talk to you very soon. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Throwback: Scary Things appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re joined on the podcast this week by Adam MacLean (@adammacattack) who is the founder of PostShame.org and #PostShame, online tools designed to help people examine their past for things they worry might leak on the internet, and then proactively share those stories themselves. By doing so, they transform these stories into narratives of strength and leadership, offering support to others struggling with similar challenges. He is also the host of the podcast “Find Your Light with Adam MacLean”, where he navigates difficult conversations around shame, leadership, and self-acceptance. In these discussions, Adam integrates his expertise in holding space for others, helping listeners work through challenges related to the body, mind, and spirit—particularly within the realms of sacred intimacy. In this conversation, Brian and Adam delve into the complexities of shame, particularly within the LGBTQ community. They explore the concept of post-shame, the impact of the internet on personal narratives, and the distinction between guilt and shame. Adam shares his personal journey, including his experiences with spirituality and 12-step programs, and how these intersect with his queerness. The discussion also touches on the significance of rituals in creating meaning and community, culminating in reflections on marriage and personal transformations. In this conversation, Adam and Brian explore the complexities of shame, relationships, and the impact of online culture on personal identity. They discuss the PostShame process, which helps individuals confront their pasts and navigate the challenges of public scrutiny. The dialogue delves into the nuances of sexuality, consent, and the importance of context in conversations about intimacy. They also touch on the experiences of men in today’s society, the distinction between erotic and pornographic expressions, and the significance of gender affirmation in personal journeys. Takeaways Dissolving shame is essential for self-acceptance. The internet amplifies the experience of shame. Guilt is about actions, while shame is about self. Community plays a crucial role in healing from shame. Rituals can help create meaning in our lives. Personal narratives can be transformed through sharing. Spirituality can be redefined outside traditional structures. Queerness and theology can coexist harmoniously. Self-expression is a radical act of love. Marriage can mark a significant shift in relationships. We can only make commitments in our relationships. Online shaming is not evenly distributed. The PostShame process helps individuals reclaim their narratives. Navigating shame involves understanding context and consent. Sexuality and shame are often intertwined in complex ways. The distinction between erotic and pornographic is crucial. Healing can involve somatic practices and intimacy. Men often struggle with loneliness and connection. Trans experiences challenge traditional notions of gender. Dissolving shame is a shared mission for many.   Chapters 03:05 – The Birth of Post-Shame and Personal Journey 07:11 – Understanding Guilt vs. Shame 10:09 – The Role of the Internet in Shaming 11:45 – Revisiting 12-Step Programs and Spirituality 14:55 – The Intersection of Queerness and Theology 19:19 – Rituals and Their Significance in Community 21:57 – Personal Reflections on Marriage and Rituals 31:46 – Interrogating Language and Relationships 33:14 – Moving Beyond Shame 34:28 – The PostShame Process 36:46 – The Impact of Online Shaming 38:07 – Navigating Sexuality and Shame 39:40 – Context and Consent in Conversations 42:46 – The Distinction Between Erotic and Pornographic 47:34 – Sacred Intimacy and Healing 50:27 – Male Loneliness and Connection 56:12 – Trans Experiences and Gender Affirmation   Resources:. Learn more about Adam at https://www.postshame.org/adammaclean Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. You all are in for a treat. Today we have Adam McLean joining us for a conversation about lots of things. The big one, the center of it is shame and it’s inverse, or, well, I guess we’ll find out if it’s in the inverse pride. I know that as L-G-B-T-Q people, almost all of us probably struggle with shame in some way, shape or form. (56s): And I’m really excited to have this conversation with you, Adam, to bring sort of a new light to the various ways shame shows up in our lives and in particular in this new millennium. So you’re the founder of the hashtag PostShame, the Post Shame org website. You’ve also got a podcast, Find Your Light with Adam MacLean, where you have these difficult conversations around shame and leadership and self-acceptance. And I know from your work that a big part of that is developing tools to help people examine the things in their past that they might worry about, and then proactively share those stories themselves and, and doing so transform the stories and their narratives around those stories. And so like, wow, such important, I would even call it holy work that you’re doing. (1m 42s): I love, I love the idea of calling it holy work. My long journey around being okay with using words like secret and holy and divine. I’ve, I’ve arrived in my forties being like, those are okay. Words to say. So I’m really having that, that’s that, that you’re, that you’re doing the type of work you’re doing and, and you’re stitching together all these sometimes disparate subjects. But it turns out we’re all, we’re all going in the same direction. We’re all trying to focus on the same thing. And dissolving shame turns out to be, I think, the great work of our time. Yeah, it’s been so misapplied, it’s been so misutilized, and I think in a lot of sacred spaces, especially like churches, sometimes it can be so weaponized and how cool that you’re leading a movement of people who are kind of squaring their faith and their sexuality and making it make sense. (2m 40s): So thank you for the work that you’re doing. Well, You’re welcome. Thanks for being here. So you kind of keyed us into perhaps like a little bit of your backstory when you said you’re recently arriving to this place where it feels comfy to describe your work as as holy or sacred. And so can you share a little bit about your background that maybe made those words for a time being like not feel so safe or comfortable or accurate? Right. Well, I’ll start with The Birth of Post shame.org. I wanted to run for office. And in 2016, after the first time that Hillary won more votes than Trump, just a reminder, she won more votes, but she wasn’t allowed to become president. And I was like, the world’s on fire. (3m 20s): It’s time. I’m just gonna have to run for office. So I started to do opposition research on myself and assemble a team and like put things together. And I realized that I had all these naked images of me on the internet, some consensual, some non-consensual, and this was something I needed to deal with. And during the process of trying to figure out how to reconcile all that and make it so I could run for office, I realized that a bunch of millennials and Gen Z folks were kind of opting out of politics writ large because the internet is such a scary place and your whole past gets piled onto the internet. And then it’s just this scary place to kind of try to be a human. And yeah, I know. Yeah, the internet’s a scary place. (4m 1s): So I started in what I really thought was a very secular endeavor, you know, kind of coping with online shaming how who gets shamed for what and why online. And the, you know, the conversation essentially became what is shameful. And I was like, oh gosh, yeah. I don’t think being gay is shameful at all, but that’s because I’ve had this like, you know, evolving life where as a teenager, okay, quick, quick, quick story time. Go back to like, me as a teenager, I grew up Episcopalian in Buffalo, New York, and I was going to confirmation class because my Jewish friends all had bar and Bat Mitzvahs. (4m 48s): And I was like, that sounds like an amazing party. I don’t understand why I don’t get one of those. And then my friends at, at the Epi Episcopal Church were like, well, you can get confirmed. And I was like, do we get to have a Bar mitzvah? And they were like, not exactly, but you know, go get confirmed and you know, we can have a party. And so I start teaching the confirmation classes and the person teaching them was like, all right, go home and please get your baptismal certificate and bring it in. ’cause we need that, you know, paperwork to, to do the confirmation. So I go home And I say to my mom and dad, I need my baptismal certificate. And they were like, Ugh, about that. (5m 28s): And I was like, what do you mean? And they’re like, so, you know, they’re like, of course. And I remember this conversation vividly because it was the first time I was confronted with like God as paperwork. Like, I was like, what do you mean? And they said so about that, they said, of course you’re one of God’s children. Of course God loves you. And I was like, what is this preamble? And they’re like, but you weren’t like officially baptized. You know, we baptized you in the bathtub and like, if you need to get anointed with some oil, like we can totally ask, you know, father John at the Invisible Church to do that for you. But like, you weren’t like officially baptized. There wasn’t like a baptism. (6m 10s): And I was like, really? Okay. So I go back to the confirmation class and I’m like, I don’t have a baptismal certificate. And they were like, whoa, okay, so we’re gonna have to do all that. You’re gonna have to get baptized. And I was like, what has changed? Like what? Like, like what has changed? And they’re like, well, you just, you have to be baptized. I’m like, no, really what is different there? There’s no way that anything is actually materially different. And as my mom and dad who were like, I guess trying to be as caring as they could, and what they knew was about to be kind of a dramatic situation, they were like, God loves you. And I was like, yeah. So I’m set. Yeah, I’m good. Yeah. (6m 50s): I, I I’m, I’m already taking care of this, this ceremony isn’t going to change anything. Yeah. And now I’ve, and then I was like, I don’t think this confirmation’s gonna change much of anything either. And then I was like, huh. And that began my like searching. Yeah. So sorry, this was a lot of story time to say like, I feel very lucky that I had this early experience. We’re kind of poking holes in the power structure was like part of my upbringing. I felt really lucky to get to kind of ask the question, like, who gets to decide my spiritual journey? And it turns out it’s me. So back to shaming writ large, like what is shameful? (7m 34s): You know, morality’s important. People always ask, what could you not be Post Shame about? And I’m like, you could try to be Post Shame about pedophilia and murder. You could try. You’re not going to get anyone on your side. No one’s going to like join you. But when you have to come out, when you say, I’ve lived this life and my sexuality does not square with my religion. And then you finally say, but I can’t do this any other way, I’m gay. I have to come out. And then you realize, oh God, there was nothing to be ashamed of anyway. I have to teach the religious leaders of being gay is okay. And so Post Shame, any coming out story, which we’ll talk about more, but any coming out story is a way to tell the power structures. (8m 17s): No, no, no. I was always holy, I was always cared for, I was always held, And I’m gonna tell you how this is gonna go. Yeah. And I, And I may, I think there’s a difference, right between feeling like being ashamed of something and feeling regret or remorse or guilt, right? Like there are things that I’ve done that have been hurtful that I wish I didn’t do that I could bet I would take back. And the, the challenge in this not be like consumed by shame and but to be like, I can regret that I can make amends, I can apologize, I can improve, I do better in the future. But like, I don’t have to be captive to shame just because I like did something bad bad. So I think there’s also like, what can you not be Post Shame about? (8m 58s): It’s like, well, you can, there’s lots of things you can be Post Shame about just as long as, and that’s different from like sometimes the reconciliation or repair that might need to happen. Exactly. Well, you know, we, we all stand in the, in the light. I was about to say, we stand in the shadow, But we actually stand in the light of Brene Brown. Yeah, yeah. And Brene Brown has these, you know, amazing distinctions between guilt and shame. That shame is something we actually feel about ourselves. And guilt is something we feel about an action. So when you are unkind to someone, absolutely, you should feel guilty about it. When you break the rules that you knew you were breaking, you should feel guilty about it because like, like that’s something you’re gonna have to figure out. (9m 39s): Yeah. But when should shame be applied? You’re right. And the internet is the sharpest, double-edged sword humanity is ever invented because the swiftness with which we are able to publicly shame someone is something humans have never seen before and is like completely incomprehensible to our lizard brains. And just the internet writ large can feel very scary because of what so many people are describing as mob mentality and cancel culture. I really don’t think anyone actually gets canceled. I think the genesis of cancel culture comes from trying to hold people to account, which is something that the internet has actually helped and hastened in many ways, but then in other ways it’s just provided a platform for shamelessness and people to say, you know, middle fingers up, I don’t care what anyone thinks, I’m just gonna keep speaking my mind. (10m 29s): Which in some cases is really helpful, but it depends on who you’re making your enemy in that scenario. Yeah. More, more on That’s a larger distinction. Yeah, actually. And because also the way that power comes into function or like the, the, the most powerful people doing like the most harm, like sort of like rise above that, whereas like marginalized people, small platforms, individuals can like really have their lives up. I just like, I think about people who like JK Rowling like turns the ire of her, like masses on. And so like JK Rowling’s, like not getting canceled, but like, I wish she would, but like, but she like picks on like a random trans woman and like their lives get destroyed. Right? Like, and so that’s like for like for nothing, for like, for being a trans woman on the internet. (11m 12s): So it’s just, yeah. It’s a mess. Yeah. So post PostShame, I would say is really committed to examining who gets shamed for what and why. Yeah. And who, who is, you know, having a hard time on the internet. So I love that you brought up just very simply just saying marginalized people reminds me that like, and sorry, and back to your earlier question of like my journey of being okay with words, like holy and sacred and divine and all this stuff. Yeah. I remember going into 12 step rooms, I would say in like my late twenties searching, wondering, you know, and then them saying, you know, you’ve gotta surrender and you’re gonna have to, you know, reckon your relationship with God and everything. And I was like, why is God involved? (11m 53s): I just wanna to figure out if I should stop drinking. I just want to figure out how to deal with my money problems. Like, I was in those 12 step rooms feeling like I was trying to tackle something concrete. And they were like, well, God is here. And I was like, what? What are they doing? Anyway, the AA and the 12 step programs were invented around a kind of, and Holly Whitaker talks in this, about this in her book, quit Like a Woman, you know, these programs were invented to kind of bring a certain type of man to his knees. It really was for a kind of apex predator in a hierarchical society to kind finally submit and realize that he wasn’t in charge and he needed to, you know, for lack of a better imagery, you know, get down on his knees and be humble in front of God. (12m 38s): And, you know, surrender to God. And Holly Whitaker says like, what are you talking about? Queer folks, women, people of color. They’ve been on their knees in a lot of different contexts in this lifetime. They have been, felt like they’ve been pushed down so many times. She really wanted, Holly really wanted to, like, from what I understand, kind of like invert this kind of, I must be humble before God energy, you know? And instead say, no, I wanna be self-expressed. I wanna be fully myself. I mean, the reason I stopped drinking was because Holly Whitaker told me by drinking, I was letting the man kind of keep me down. I was letting this like capitalist spending weird. (13m 19s): Like, you know, I think alcohol’s gonna end up going the way of cigarettes. Like people will just be like, it’s bad for you. Yeah. Like, you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t do it. It’s really bad. And so it’s like, it’s like my, I’m not, I’m not textbook sober, but like, I don’t drink as a kind of radical act of self-love, not as a humble, humble, quite the opposite. I mean, I don’t drink kind of self righteously to be like, yeah, you know, who else doesn’t drink Brene Brown? You know, I want to be like Brene Brown. So like, that’s how I got myself together. So, yeah. Anyway, so now I kind of go into 12 step rooms with a different reverence being like, if you need to be brought to your knees, then go down to your knees. (14m 3s): And if you need to be lifted up, there’s this room of really nice people who are also kind of willing to lift you up. Yeah. So that’s how I kind of reckon all that. Yeah. One of my friends in, in sobriety says like, one of the sort of like catchphrases for God, for folks that are like, maybe don’t believe it, like in a traditional understanding of God is like a group of drunks since we’re like being, being like held by a group of drunks, being like accountable to a group of drunks, like at the end of the day. And I just sort of like, oh, like, that’s like a God I can believe in. Like, like, and just to see the ways which like my friends in 12 step programs, like show up for one another and care for one another and give one another. And like even the ones who are like, like selflessness sometimes, but not in a, like I am nothing sort of way, but sort of in a, like, we are all in this together sort of way is really beautiful. (14m 51s): Totally. And that’s also when, and I mean, just the title of this podcast, Queer Theology, you know, has been, it’s been, you know, popping around in my head for, for weeks and months now, because I’m literally just like, where am I in like stitching together my queerness and my, you know, willingness to interrogate theology. I’ve, I’m struggling with the word sin these days because I’m just like, Oh, I’ll sell you on sin. But I just, I’m like, I’m gonna use your God as a group of drunks analogy, which I’m realizing the joke there is the acronym group of drunks. (15m 32s): Yeah. Okay. Because I’m like, the drunks is, I’m like, drunks is so pejorative. Why, why, why is that what we’re talking about? But anyway, yeah, equipping a quippy of acronym always helps. And I’m just kind of like, well, it’s, it’s their sin that brought them together and their sin is what’s, what’s helping them see through this life and the fact that community is going to be the only way through it. I, I just can’t get on board with sin capital s and one God removes it. I just, I’m not there. It’s not my practice. It’s not my jam. Is there something you want to sell me on? Is there, is there, I mean, I love sin in the context of like BDSM and like, like investigating your shadow. (16m 17s): So like I’m all in on that, but you cannot, when I go to church with my boyfriend, he’s a, an onic episcopalian. And when I sit in that church, there are certain, some of the prayers that I can’t say because I’m Oh yeah, no, I’m not gonna tell you on that version of sin. Okay. I, because I, like, I went through it on my journey. I went through a period of time where I was like, there’s no sin, sins not real. And it was actually sort of like original sin that I came back around to first. And I was, but like not in the weird Christian way, right? That like, I was born like in a hospital in America that like using medical technology that uses like rare minerals that were harvested like on other continents that create war and strife and poverty. (17m 3s): Right? And so like, whoa, Trump, whoa. That is, that is such a butterfly effect that like the original sin is that rare earth mining was necessary for your birth. And that’s on you, bro. That’s so it Interesting. No, it’s, it’s Not, it’s not That’s a thing though. It’s like, it’s not on me. It is, it is a fact. Right? I like, I like grew up in America that is like the, the fortunes that we experience as American citizens, like is held up by the American military, by white supremacy. Like we’re both like white men. Like I actually like, And I, that doesn’t mean I did something wrong or that I’m shameful, but like, I actually cannot get away from like systemic injustices that happen in the world that I play a part of. (17m 45s): Like, there just like is no, you know, there’s no consumption under capitalism. Like that doesn’t mean that I’ve done something wrong necessarily. And it does definitely doesn’t mean that like a god up in the sky is going to like, erase it all and make it all better. But like there are in fact like ways in which like, we can’t help but hurt people or benefit from like harmful things despite our like best efforts and intentions. And like it does, it feels like until you And I, yeah, I don’t, I don’t don’t actually call it sin, right? Like I would just call it like systemic injustice. But like, I do think that there’s like concept of like, there actually are that there actually are like forces in the world that like act upon us and if we just pretend that they’re not there, we actually cannot dismantle them. (18m 32s): And so like being able to like name those in some way, And I like personally wouldn’t use the word sin because it’s like all wrapped up in like weird baggage. But like, I do think that like there’s an angle in which like yeah. Like sometimes like, do cause harm or are part of harmful systems. That’s really interesting. So, so help me out. This is like, for, for the listeners out there, this is when the guest is cheating, right? This is when the guest is like, goes in and is like, okay, well this is free therapy, this is opportunity. So, so I, okay, so I’m standing in the pew and all, all these prayers that have been cultivated over centuries, right? (19m 13s): Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s not like these are unthoughtful. So people who really thought they were onto something writing these books are really trying to like guide society, you know, like let’s, let’s assume best intentions for most of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Especially the Episcopalians because they are like so inoffensive. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m so, I’m so down with the early acceptance of gay marriage in the Episcopal church. Anyway, so I’m standing in the pew And I’m saying these prayers and it has to do with sin. So, so help me. So like I, I’m now like blanking on like, yeah, I literally was an acolyte. So like, how can I not remember these prayers? But like, you know, so then what am I saying when I’m like, God would take away the sins of the world. (19m 54s): I, I, yeah. I don’t know how to square energetically, how can I, how can I endure these prayers? Because really I stand there And I like purse my lips and sometimes it’s also like a recorded telecast in this very fancy St. Thomas Episcopal church. Yeah. Yeah. Which Is fabulous in, in Manhattan. I mean, I know that they are not using certain video clips because I’m like rolling my eyes in a way that are like, like it’s, it must be distracting sometimes. So, so gimme a recommendation. Yeah. How do I ride that out? It depends on how you define the word God, right? Like, if God is a like man in the sky, that is like waving his hand over the world and sort of like casting some magic spell to like excise the sin. (20m 39s): Like Yeah. Eye roll. You’re right. You’re turning me off. Yeah. Nonstop. Yeah. Yeah. Eye roll, eye roll, eye roll, Right? Like, and so like, and, and, but, and here’s the thing, like, I’m not really here to defend the Episcopal church. Like the, the problem with in my, in my, in my outsider is you a lot of like the mainline Christian denominations, like it’s really about tradition, right? And so like, they, they care a lot maybe about like the world, but like, I don’t know if it actually is like thoughtful as you’re giving them credit to. A lot of it is like, we’ve had these buildings for a long time and we sing these pretty hymns and we have this beautiful sounding organ, which your boyfriend plays beautifully. Like, and also like, we just like the way that it sounds and we like the community and like these words just sort of like give us like comfort because like our parents and our grandparents and their grandparents have been saying it. (21m 27s): And like, there’s actually I think like not a lot of self-reflection going on both, especially like amongst your everyday parishioner. It’s like, I think that could be the sense of your sort of like, I do we actually even believe these words, right? But there’s, I think there’s a word, a way in which you could reframe all of that, but like, also like if, if Episcopalianism like doesn’t do it for you, like go find your piece elsewhere. Oh, work. Okay. Well quick shout out to Colin, my fabulous boyfriend who, who came up with this idea that I, I should be on the podcast and, and, and really believed in the cross section of Queer Theology and Post Shame as like, you know, topics that, that really support and magnify one another. (22m 8s): And Colin is a fabulous, fabulous organist and very talented in that regard. And I have to say, the sermons lately, it’s like always some visiting fancy person from England have been great. So this is something I think is also different in my forties. And on quick, another story time. When I was a teenager, when I was in acolyte, my family was friends with the priest church family as well. I don’t feel like naming them, but like, anyway, we were friends with them. They had a deaf son who I was friends with. I felt really lucky to have like a deaf bestie when I was a kid. (22m 50s): There was so much, it was so relentlessly confronting. One of the things he used to do was if he was getting yelled at by his parents, he would cover his eyes. And I thought that was so funny that, that that, that they couldn’t sign to him. Anyway, so that’s just, that’s, this is just imagery is just so reminding me of my childhood. Anyway, they went away to something in Maine when I was like 13 and they invited me to go with them, and the priest was preaching like a guest preacher at a church. And I have no idea what the sermon was about, but after the service, I mean, I’m 13 in this story and Father John comes over to me and says, so what did, what did you think of the sermon? (23m 36s): And I was like, what do you mean? And he is like, well, what did you think about it? And I was like, I I mean, good job. Like what? And he was like, did I, did I do okay? And it was again, One of these wild thing for a pastor to say to a 13-year-old or anyone really, he Was nervous. Yeah, I know, I know he was nervous, but like, again, I felt really lucky that I had these like early experiences of like seeing the quote unquote man behind the curtain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I was like, oh, you’re just a man. Yeah, yeah. And you’re, and think about it, he’s writing this sermon in the nineties. I mean, he’s not getting help from little Clippy or Chachi pt, you know? Yeah. He has to like write this sermon on his own. (24m 16s): Yeah. Like find these ideas from within himself, try to, you know, explain this message. I feel like nowadays I, God, I could really work with cha bt on like an amazing Post Shame sermon. It would be like so spectacular. And I would love to be like stitched together my disdain of the word sin and the, the parsing out the difference between guilt and shame and like, how do we do this with the context of Episcopalianism, you know, St. Thomas Episcopal invite me to do a guest, a guest sermon one day anyway. So it just that that’s what’s on my mind. Yeah. I mean, so like, I, well I’ll plug a research really quickly and then, we’ll, I wanna get back to Post Shame because like, so I think that there is something really powerful about like rituals. (24m 58s): And so I think that for like many people, they like haven’t taken the time, and this is like not a judgment anyway, they haven’t taken the time to like create their own or to find their own or to find their own unique meaning in the ones they’ve inherited. And so they just sort of like go through the motions and it’s like there is something comfortable about like, singing the same Christmas songs every year, or like these prayers that we always say together. And like, even if you don’t necessarily believe in the content of it, there’s like something about like the process of doing it together with these people who you do care about that feels comforting in some way. Connective. And so like, what we really encourage people to do is like, like create your own rituals or like re like really understand this sort of like radical roots of Christian or Jewish rituals or like, like baptism and communion actually have these like really, really powerful radical roots that like kind of get lost in like two millennia later. (25m 48s): And so like find your, either find your own way in your own way into existing ones or create your own so that you have like way, a way to sort of like tap into and remind yourself of like your deepest values and to connect with like the people who you are in community with and your, your values or your higher power. And we have a whole workshop on that. I mean, you make, you make a really good point. And I, I want to say, I mean, I’m not like anti getting baptized, but the way that I would want to be baptized is like, I would invite every single person I know in New York, we would fill the whole church. It would be like wedding level invite list. Okay. Yeah. And like, I would stand at the front of this church and strip completely naked. (26m 31s): Yeah. And like walk, walk into a pool and be like, if, if I’m going to declare the way that I like, want to be involved in this communion of like, just the, I don’t know, like again, someone would have to help me stitch together the mission statement of this baptism. But like I describe this to my friends about what I would, what would be the bar for me to like agree to be baptized into the church. And they’re like, Adam, you’re describing a drag show. You’re describing your own drag performance. And like that is not exactly like, I don’t know if the Episcopal church is like eager to get the Adam McLean version of baptism. (27m 11s): Yeah. Like there’s other places like you And I should do that in a park. Yeah. Like, like we should have the, the Queer Theology, tm, Adam McLean being baptized for pride, like fully, fully nude, immersed with like the most beautiful prayers and like sacred. Do you see how animated Yeah. Yeah. I’m here for it. It’s like totally queer and radical who wants to be baptized, but just like the word baptism, it’s Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess if I really care I have to do a little bit more research. But you’re saying you have resources on this, are there like back episodes that are about baptism specific? Oh Yeah. We, we, we have a workshop called ri no not about baptism specifically, But we have, we have, we talk about baptism in it, but it’s, it’s a workshop called Rituals for Resistance and Resilience. (27m 56s): It’s that Queer Theology com slash rituals. Thank you for plugging that. Yeah, that’s awesome. Totally. When I, so I got both religiously and legally married like a little over a year ago on my 15th. Congratulations. You had your one year anniversary. Yeah, It was like a few months ago at this point. Congratulations. Congratulations. Which is wild. Congratulations. We got married on our 15th anniversary and so people keep asking me like about my one year and I’m like, it doesn’t, it feels like my 16th year, not my, my first year for sure. But, but so to get back to that, people were like in the lead up to it. Were like, are you so excited? It’s gonna, like everything’s gonna change. Or like in the, in the immediate aftermath of like, oh, like how’s married life? And I was like, I don’t know, like the same, we’ve been together for 15 years. (28m 39s): And so there was, I remember there was like this part of me that was like, nothing is like actually like ontologically different about me or our relationship. Kinda like your experience of like what with the baptism, specificate, like what has changed? And then I was like in couples therapy and also writing my book about non-monogamy and like writing about rituals. And I was like, we like, we like we did do it and like we could have not done it. And Like there’s like one way to look at it where like nothing is different. And then there’s like another way to look at it where like, I guess like actually something like is different And I can’t, And I hate this ’cause like before I was married I was like, oh, these married people are just like, they don’t understand. (29m 25s): I’ve been together for 14 years. It’s the same. And, And I don’t necessarily think that like you have to get married, but like there is like some way in which that like putting 200 of our friends and families and loved ones together in a room and like for us Humble wrack. Like It Was, it was taco, it was a taco buffet. So like, No, no, I don’t need the details. I’m just so happy for you. The 200 folks were like, hell yes. Yeah. So that’s great. And we like signed this katuba and like some rituals, right? And it was like, oh, like maybe like something magical did sort of happen and like, I don’t really, it’s like on the way, like in the logical part of my brain, like mostly atheist, part of my brain is like nothing happened. (30m 10s): Like it just was this, but, and then there’s like, so there is like some sort of woo that was like, I don’t know, I think we like actually did sort of like conjure some shift. And so I think whether it’s marriage or baptism or conversion or divorce, like there are these like moment moments that you can like mark with meaning, and you don’t, you, you could just sort of like coast through them, but like if you choose to, I think you can like call into something like bigger and deeper if you would, if you would like, I think that is probably the most adult most thoughtful way to even question this context entirely. Yeah. It’s like you don’t have to use the word god in your 12 step meeting. (30m 53s): You don’t have to say the prayers at the church, you can just like hang out, you know, during that part of the service. Yeah. But to, you’re, you’re literally offering people In this conversation the idea that you can check in with your own rituals and your own ceremonies and then Exactly. Things are exactly the same. But something also did shift because of declarations, because of language. What is more beautiful than signing the katuba. Yeah. Like it is so exciting to, to, I mean all that script, I, it just like, I mean I want one Colin, don’t listen, don’t listen to this part Also, we’re not Jewish, but Well Depends on how find it. (31m 35s): He’s I can have a good, That’s a whole other episode. That’s a whole other episode. But I, I think that is where I’m at with, I don’t wanna say with with the sacred, with the divine. I am so game to interrogate how our language and our thoughts shape the world we live in. And that all we can do is make commitments in our relationships. Like that’s like all we can do. Like yes, we can build things in the physical world, but they don’t actually do anything until the relationships were in interact with them. (32m 18s): Yeah. I don’t know, do I, do I believe that? Totally. Do I believe that statement? I’m kind of thinking about some crystals that I have on my altar at home right now And I’m like, no, those inanimate objects are lovely, but it’s because of who gave them to me or where I was when I got them, or like what they symbolize and are reminding me of. I dunno. Yeah, that’s a baptism. There’s magic, but like if crystals work better for you, like stick with the crystals. You, you Adam. And also like you listening, like I, we feel like we constantly say like, part of our work is to help people reclaim the religious traditions they come from. And part of them, part of our work is to help people be like, oh, actually this like no longer fits me. I don’t need this to them. Like, leave healthfully. (32m 59s): Okay, put a phone mute. But I, I appreciate that you keep turning the tables and becoming the interviewer. It’s clear that you have a podcast. This always happens when you get two podcasters together, they start interviewing one another. But, so I wanna, I wanna circle back to like Post Shame and like the actual work of like Moving Beyond Shame for folks. Like how do you like guide people through that? Great. So Post Shame dot org is an online tool to help people find something in their past that they worry would leak on the internet. They leak it on their own with context and they share a story of strength and leadership that shows they’re ready to help people deal with something similar. It’s a six step process. The company as it were, is really a consultancy where you get to work with me on what it is that you are afraid will leak on the internet. (33m 44s): These could be people preparing to run for office. These can be people in a large business organization that are trying to go from that SVP level to that CEO level. A very crude description of it that some people like in the business world is like training for how to make the internet like your bitch. Like how to make the internet work for you. Because when a board is considering who is going to be able to be in that kind of like hot seat that like relentless focus seat, they want someone who’s not only like internet savvy, but like already kind of mindd their past and looked in their closet, so to speak, to find the things that, you know might derail them being CEO. (34m 25s): My favorite part of PostShame is that it’s actually this amazing conversation starter and context to remember that online shaming is always gendered and racialized. Online shaming is not evenly distributed amongst, you know, what you look like or your social strata. And it’s like everyone’s favorite discussion entryway into declaring how dissatisfied they are with how the internet works. Like no one is enjoying cancel culture. It just isn’t, it just isn’t going well. And, and everyone it turns out has a story where they have more sympathy for someone who they don’t feel got a fair shake on the internet. (35m 7s): On Find Your Light. With Adam MacLean my podcast, we kind of look at a person like me and my guest in act two of the podcast, look at a person who’s had a public shaming or a downfall and kind of imagine what their life would be like if they had had access to Post Shame and utilize this tool instead of going through their scandal just like clumsily. And it turns out so many people are like, oh, there’s so much nuance to these stories. We wish this person would’ve just like, come clean sooner. Because it turns out it’s not that bad. And so many people have gone through this. This i I just, I it’s my favorite way of, of going through the world. It’s, it’s how I slow down the internet in my mind. (35m 48s): And it turns out when I offer offer it to people, either as a service or a context or just like a cocktail party conversation, they are calmer. Yeah. It is, it is a mechanism to say internet shaming is so fast. I’ve also, one of the ways I quote unquote help people is sometimes I see someone going through an internet shit storm. Either I know them or like I don’t agree with what, you know, the headline is of what they’ve gone through. But I still reach out to them and say, I’m sorry you’re going through an internet shit storm. They’re really scary, aren’t they? And people are like, thank you. You’re the only person Yeah. Who has checked in with how I’m doing. One person I’m thinking of in particular, I don’t wanna go into the details of it, but he was in the wrong Yeah. (36m 29s): And I was like, I’m really sorry you’re going through an online shit storm. And he was like, you’re the only one. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I was like, please don’t, please don’t do anything to hurt yourself. Like please know that there is a way through this and you know, keep staying in the conversation. Don’t get so like, I, you know, I’m gonna bring him up because everyone else always brings him up in this context. But Trump, like, he is not Post Shame. He is shamelessness personified. He is all elbows out. He he has no empathy, he has no contrition, he has no humanity. So go live your life as, as Donald Trump. It’s, let me know how it goes. (37m 10s): There’s no way it’s fun. Yeah. There’s no way it’s connected. Yeah. There’s no way it’s enriching. Yeah. Like look at that guy. He’s so, he obviously smells and is just like an arid rotting from the inside human being. Sure he is a massing power, but at what cost? Yeah. Like, and which is why I really worry about kiddos seeing people like that in unquote power because they’re like, well is that how you get through this life? Yeah. Is elbows out saying, no apologies to anyone and I’m over here Post Shame being like, no, no, no. Apologies to many. Yeah. But you don’t have to actually apologize to everyone. ’cause sometimes the thing that you think is shameful actually isn’t shameful. (37m 50s): Especially if when it comes to things like sexuality and recovery and evidence of, you know, sex tapes and nudes and everything. Yeah. Yeah. So did that, did that answer your question? Yeah. That that’s what I do with cliche a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s just like, wow. It’s like I, you don’t have to apologize for the sex tape, but like someone else should probably be apologizing for like the fucked up relationship that they, that they had. Right. We, and we like ways, we were talking about sort of things are like racialized and gendered and like queer people are stigmatizing in different ways than straight people. And it’s just sort of like the ways in which we’re told like, these things are bad. I remember like when I was living in West Hollywood, someone was like, some, some guy, some queer man was like running for I think city council and he was like, by the way, I have a dude’s nude. (38m 31s): Like here’s the account I, I Know. Yeah. I know this story. Like, yeah, he’s an, an early, I forgot his name. He’s an early, he’s an early example of Post Shame. There was also someone who was running for governor of Arizona and he, these, there were these early examples of like, well I guess it’s gonna leak, so why don’t I just come out about it anyway. Yeah. Which I think is an amazing first draft. Neither of those candidates was like, especially like politically agile. Yeah. And like, did they even get any like, support on their side? Like it’s interesting for the headline. Yeah. Which I also think is something people are very concerned about pursuing Post Shame is they’re like, well, I don’t wanna just come out about everything. (39m 14s): Like, the best part of being in interaction with other humans is that we remember that like context is important. Like things should be context dependent. It’s actually very inappropriate if I just walk into every business interaction I have and I’m like, Hey, I have naked photos of me on the internet. Like, it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Yeah. Like, that’s not what we need to talk about right now. Yeah. Do I feel it’s important for me to publicly discuss that I have naked photos on the internet because I want to de-stigmatize them and like come out relentlessly that revenge porn is abhorrent. And at the same time we can also continue a conversation that having naked photos of yourself on your phone or sending them to other romantic partners or people you’ve never met that you’re just simply chatting with is also allowed Yeah. (40m 2s): In a reasonable way for consenting adults to communicate. Yeah. So like my nudes are on the internet to fight revenge porn, but like, I can’t actually go into a conversation with someone who doesn’t want to talk about nudes at all and just be like, nudes, nudes, nudes. You, you have to, you have to stand up for stuff at the same time. There Was a while ago where someone that I knew back when I used to go to church, like at some point we became social media friends and like he would send me like flirty messages that I would like not particularly reciprocate. And at some point I started just getting like, like naked pictures of like explicit like dick pics and, and butt pics. And I was like, I don’t, like, this is not our vibe. (40m 45s): And I remember him being like, oh, sorry. I just like, I’d be like, I’ve had so much shame that I’m like really trying to like be like more sex positive And I like, don’t always know where the line is. And I was like, okay, well like sending like non-consensual naked photos is like not sex positive. Like, so I could send them to consenting people who wanna have it, but like I actually like don’t want to receive these anymore. So like please don’t send them to me. And then like he would stop for a while and like he’d be like, send of ’em again. I’d be like, we have talked about this. Like, And I was like, if you do this again, like I’m going to block you because like, this is not like this second or third time that we had this conversation. And like, and then I kept tapping And I was like, man, like this is not, this is also like not it, right? Like I’m glad that you’re feeling your oats, but like if you’ve got a clear, literally metaphorically, I guess if you’ve got like a clear signal that it’s not okay or not wanted like that, you gotta knock that off and it’d be one thing. (41m 34s): Or if it was like we were in a group snapshot and like that was sort of like the vibe and like the first time And I don’t know, like I’m kind of a like, you get one free pass sending me nudes and I’ll like tell you if I want more of not or not, but like, not everyone is like that. It just feels like if you’re gonna be talking about these topics or sending, like you were saying like the context is so, is important. Like talking about it is different than like showing them, talking about them in sort of this like the, the way that you talk about like your work and like the importance of it is like different than talking about them in sort of like a titillating way. That’s something that we inside of our online community are that we always like striking that balance of like, how do we open up spaces to talk about sex and queer sex and like not being ashamed about sex and like anonymous sex or sex parties without also like, and like being able to like name that and having a space to discuss that amongst other spiritual folks without it being sort of like inappropriate for people who like Yeah. (42m 26s): And so like that’s always like a balance and it like, like you were saying, it just looks like context. Context and can sound are both so important in this in these conversations. Yes. You’re reminding me of Audra Lorde has these beautiful, sometimes I go on like bell hooks and Audra Lorde and like, like these amazing Yeah. You know, YouTube like black holes where I just like, it’s like suddenly two in the morning and all I’m doing is watching Yeah. Watching all of this like amazing feminist content on YouTube. Anyway, she does this amazing clarification of the difference between the pornographic and the erotic. And I think you’re pointing out something important that like exactly like you have a book coming out that has to do with your non-monogamy and polyamory or sorry. (43m 13s): Yeah. I actually might be mis describing it. Is it polyamorous as well or is it Just Yeah, polyamory, monogamy. Yeah. All all things. Yeah. Great. So some people think those words are inherently pornographic, right? Yeah. They think immediately it’s like coming out as bisexual, right? Yeah. They think, oh my God, that means you are this greedy threesome having maniac. And it’s like, no, I was just describing my identity as Yeah. You know, as such, I’m, I’m an aspiring, budding bisexual. I’m actually get so much pushback and welcome. I’m a bisexual Too. That’s like a very, I’m a very faggy, very gay bisexual. Well, exactly. If anyone’s watching this on video, these two guys are like, so I’d like to go on a date with a woman. (43m 54s): And they’re like, did you see the snaps? You just gave? Like, you’re gay. Anyway, let’s, let’s leave that to the side. Let’s leave that to the side. But this, this, you know, we’re, we’re still talking about something fairly radical, right? Especially with all of this sexuality and like self-expression stuff. I am just very aware that many people perceive what I’m talking about as pornographic. And I very often try to ground it by saying I’m accessing my erotic all the time. These difficult conversations are part of my erotic, these talking about the intersections of shame and theology. I mean like, I don’t even know if 10 years ago me would even be able to have this conversation because I’d bring so much like agro upset energy to being like, so many people are mad church abuse scandals. (44m 44s): You know, just like, and now I’m just kind of like, what are the things that work for people? Ceremony is beautiful. Anyway. Yeah. So I just, I think there’s this key distinction between the erotic and the pornographic. And I think staying in the erotic is, is an appropriate loving way to have a conversation. And I just wanna point out that sometimes the nudes conversation on the plat, the different platforms that we’re all on, I think that it’s your experience of this person, like kind of sending you, you know, non-consensual nudes essentially is it’s in the platform. (45m 24s): Like the platform can be so deadened and the type of connection can be so deadened that this person is so desperate to connect that they’re like, here’s this whole, here’s this whole pick. I’m expressing myself, I’m sex positive. And you’re like, oh my God, this platform is so, so poorly designed that like, I’m open and Instagram and it’s just these like disappearing whole pic. And I was just like, okay, great. Like that’s not the energy I was in right now. Yeah. Like, I’m looking for grief resources. Yeah. I’m trying to, I’m trying to, to to do research on, you know, health and wellness. Yeah. It’s just like, it’s so messy. I had a, a client come to me recently who really wanted to come out about his inappropriate messaging behavior and we went through the whole like process of Post Shame And I kind of predicted where we were going to get to. (46m 18s): And when we got to the end of it, he realized he had like one apology to make and that what was really happening was that it was addictive behavior. And what he was doing was he wasn’t making his artwork because he was so caught up in what, like might even be described as like sex addict behavior. Kind of like a pathological behavior of like trying to get a rise out of people, get people’s attention and feel validated through this mechanism. Because of doing the PostShame process, he realized he had one apology to make and he needed to delete like Grindr from his phone. And I was like, that is a beautiful end of Post Shame. (46m 58s): You don’t have to like go on a press tour talking about all the messed up messages you sent. Like it, it can actually be tampered down. Yeah. And again, this is one of my favorite parts of Post Shame is like walking people through, you know, what do you feel ashamed about? I bet other people are also having a similar experience and how can you share your story to help other people feel less alone? And that’s what we’re doing right now on this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So with the pulse shame consultancy, it sounds like your clients tend to be like higher powered, like, or not high powered, but yeah. High, high powered and high or high level or aspiring to those levels like business executives, politicians, like things like that, people in the public spotlight, leaders of some sort or aspiring leaders. (47m 46s): Do you also, but also do any work with like, just sort of like everyday individuals? And if not, like, do you have any like, tips for like, just sort of like, I Mean, all my clients are badass, so Yeah. So some some are, some are more high profile than others. Sure. But I also have a sacred intimacy practice. Yeah. And I would describe sacred intimacy as a healing modality where you work with a PR practitioner who’s willing to help you kind of investigate your shadows and come up with somatic like embodied exercises to kind of metabolize those shadows, complete processes in your mind and body like Carl Jung style that like need to be completed. (48m 26s): And sometimes that can in and can include touch and intimate touch. So my Post Shame world has also kind of morphed into the sacred intimacy world where you’re asking like, is it, is it like everyday folks? I have a lot of straight male clients who are kind of meeting their body for the first time and are so scared and don’t know where to go for this type of like, coaching. And I have to say the touch elements with my straight clients are pretty, pretty low. Like, like low stress. Like none of my straight clients are coming in and like asking for like very explicit work. (49m 6s): They’re kind of like, I’ve been married for 10 years. I, sorry, how explicit am I allowed to? You could be As as close as you might be. Yeah. It’s just, I was just like, they’re like, you know, I’ve been married for 10 years, you know, I, I only, I can only come by jerking off. Like, I don’t like having sex with my wife. I gained all this weight. I wanna get off these antidepressants, or I wanna get off this Adderall and this is making me feel this way. And it’s just like, people are just like so squirreled up with like all these things about their body and sex and shame. And so we do, you know, embodiment exercises to kind of like help them meet their body again for the first time. For many of them, they haven’t had a male counterpart that they can talk to about these parts of their body. (49m 50s): And looping this back to like religious shame, so many of these men are afraid of being labeled as gay because they’re coming to this place for this type of help. And there’s nothing gay about a kind of like, again, ceremonial, ritualistic, like being with another man and talking through how their male anatomy works, how they experience their male body and healing that. And I know it sounds odd to say, but like it’s not gay. Yeah, no, It, it’s not gay. It’s, it’s kind of bro vibes. And I like use this imagery a lot. (50m 30s): I don’t know if it’s landing with people, but like, I really think about like men going like building a fire in the woods together and like talking about what matters to them and like discovering, like that’s their form of church, right. Like discovering their inner worlds sharing, being in relationship with one another. They’re not gonna make out, they’re not even gonna spoon in their tent. Yeah, yeah. But they need someone to talk to about this life, the, the mystery of their body, their sexuality in themselves. Yeah. And also like, as, as Gayness for lack of a better word, has gotten like more visibility. I feel like there’s, it’s not accepted fully. (51m 13s): So there’s like this like retraction away from types of touch kiss, physical affection that like straight men used to be more comfortable doing one another that now they’re so God afraid of doing, the fear of being perceived as gay. Like, I had this, I have this book called, oh I can See It, loving a Photographic History of Men In Love 1850s through 1950s. And it’s like these really cute and like I, I read it and like they all as like, it’s a photo book. So I look through it And I like, they all look like super queer to me and some way, but like I am aware also that like some percentage of these men are probably like not actually like gay in the way that we would describe it. It’s just that like you could be cutesy and hold hands or be silly together like in 1890s in a way that you like is like less accepted now because it gets like coded as gay. (52m 2s): Yeah. I do a lot of like breath work retreats, yoga retreats, plant medicine retreats, even in mixed gay and straight spaces, but they are usually male or male identified only. And when men are together, they’re goofy. They love like climbing on one another and like being like, it’s roughhousing. Yeah. And it’s like, it’s, it’s, I Don’t know, it’s we’re animals, man. Like, Like I know we are animals, But we’re like Animals. Like Yeah, I know. Also, like I’m six four and 200 pounds. Like I’m, I’m a great guy to wrestle with. Yeah. Like, you can climb me and like, yeah. (52m 44s): Again. Yeah. So that’s what I’m out here in the world doing and that’s how Post Shame has kind of like, has this like offshoot and sacred intimacy. And I am manifesting like a headline that is like the Straight Whisperer. Like I really feel like there is just, there’s all these headlines about male loneliness and like the crisis of men. And like people like Scott Galloway are doing their very best to like put this like magnifying glass on like, we really have to take care of these men because they are lonely and they are dopamine addicted and they are playing video games and they also have access to guns. Yeah. Like it can be very, very dark and scary. So I want to be out here being like, well, there’s a nice guy Adam, who like is willing to talk to you about whatever is the scariest, darkest part of yourself. (53m 30s): Yeah. And like, if you need a hug, I’m also came for a hug. Yeah. And it’s not gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta connect you with my creative partner here, Shannon, because his book is all about like masculinity and all that shit from his like perspective as a trans man. Right. Shannon is a trans man, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love, I love talking to trans men about their experience of the first time they take testosterone. And I hope I’m not stealing a joke from Shannon, but apparently it’s like you are horny and hungry. It is literally like, I want a sandwich And I want to fuck. And I just think that is so funny. I haven’t gone on like HGH or like testosterone journey for myself yet, but I’m sure when I get into my fifties and if that becomes part of my life, I’m just gonna be like, they were right. (54m 11s): I’m hungry and horny. Yeah. I remember like in my, in my twenties, like I, I had like my dad’s bald, my mom’s, my mom’s ad was bald. Like I have lots of balding in my family. I just like didn’t wanna go bald And I was considering going on Propecia to stop my hair loss. And I was like having all this angst about like spending money on this pill to my, just my body. And I was talking with one of my friends who happens to be a trans guy and he Was like, just wait till prep comes out and then you have to walk through that fire as well. I know. He was like, I don’t know man. Like I, if there’s like some medication that you can take that like makes you feel more at home in your body, like obviously I’m in support of that. And I was like, And I was like, well of course, like of course like you are allowed to do it, but it just like, somehow it felt like superf allowed superfluous like when I was doing it. (54m 54s): And he was like, you can let, like, you can let that go man. And so I like, I’m really appreciative for the ways in which like trans guys have also taught me how to be a man. God is trans. Yeah. God is trans because trans folk, this is, this is where I’m at And I know there’s no trans folks in the room right now. So if someone is like, you can’t talk about the trans folks if they’re not even there. I’m going to share this closely held personal view, which is trans folks by being themselves. It is like coming out, I’m about to say coming out on steroids. I mean, it is such a magnified experience of coming out by saying, I am all of these things you cannot tell me otherwise. Yeah. What is more beautiful than that? Also, the, the revelations that we’re having as a culture that so many things we do are gender affirming. (55m 40s): I I I would love to get rid of the gender binary, although some of us are at one end and others of us are at the other end. Yeah. I I don’t think we have to focus so much on the one side or the other, but if you need to go on that testosterone and grow that beard and get the surgeries, knock yourself out. Yeah, yeah. Like be gender affirmed. Yeah. Yeah. So if you And I, you And I will have a support group if we go on testosterone in a few years and we will, we will go back to each other and be like, we’re hungry and horny. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s gonna happen. So if folks are interested in connecting with you about your Post Shame consultancy work and or your like sacred intimacy work, what is the best way for folks to get ahold of you for that? (56m 21s): Post Shame dot org is the prettiest website on the internet. I’m on Instagram at, at, at a mac attack, And I recently have joined Blue Sky and am dipping my toe into what it’s like to commune with all of the folks who are sharing their nudes and kind of like living a kind of like much more out and proud life on Blue Sky. And that’s Alt Mac attack. Get the joke. It’s like an alt Twitter, but it’s Alt Mac attack and I’m having a little bit of fun over there. But I gotta say it’s scary because Yeah. Living out and proud is, and, and, and really walking the walk while you’re talking, the talk can be confronting. (57m 4s): So if you, if you see my nudes on Blue Sky, please be nice. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here, Adam, it was great to connect with you and thank you for this like, really delightful and insightful conversation. Thank You. And thank you for all the work you’re doing. And may we both keep shouting our missions loud and proud, because it turns out they’re all the same. All we’re doing is dissolve and shame all day long. Amen to that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, Fort Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. (57m 46s): We’ll see you next week. The post Post Shame & Sacred Intimacy with Adam MacLean appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re doing something that we haven’t done in awhile here which is to have a throwback episode for this week. We’re coming up on a huge milestone- 600 episodes!-  and there’s probably a lot of episodes that some of y’all have not heard and we think that revisiting the Bible has power because you learn new things. So for this episode, we’ll revisit Queerness as a Cornerstone.  This episode is filled with so much good stuff and we’re excited for you to dive in. We have a listener question from Bella about how to talk about your faith without making other people uncomfortable. How do we disconnect sharing our faith from some people’s ideas about evangelising people. We also queer this week’s passage from 1 Peter 2:2-10. We talk about what it means and feels like to be nourished by God’s word and how the experience of queerness and transness can be a touchpoint for the entire church. So stay tuned and enjoy this episode.   In this episode, we talk about: Brian talks about learning Danish and cooking  Fr. Shay talks about cooking monstastic soups  Shout out to a new Patreon supporter  A question from Bella about how to talk about your faith Fr. Shay talks about the pressure to evangelize that he grew up with  Brian shares about how progressive folks sometime move too far in the other direction Fr. Shay talks about disconnecting sharing from conversion  Invitation to Sanctuary Collective  We queer a text from 1 Peter 2:2-10  Brian talks about the joy of being nourished by God’s Word  Fr. Shay talks about what it means to taste that the Lord is good  Brian delves into the power of learning to trust your body  Fr. Shay talks about the power of those rejected to build something incredible    Resources:.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. It’s Brian. For right now, you’re getting just me. She’ll be tuning in in a way, in just a moment. We’re doing something that we haven’t done in a little while, which is we’re going to have a Throwback episode for you today. We’re coming up on 600 episodes of this podcast in I think just a few weeks, which is, this is a lot of episodes. (54s): And so unless you’ve been listening diligently every single week for the past, I dunno, 12 years, And I know that there are some folks who have been around all that time. So like, shout out to you and thank you for going on this journey with us. There’s probably a lot of episodes that you have not heard or that you heard a while ago and have since forgotten. And we think that there are some real gems in there, and in the same that we think that revisiting the Bible has power ’cause you like learn things new. And again, I think similarly hope that revisiting this podcast episode will speak to y’all in a new and a fresh way today. So that’s like the philosophical, nice sounding reason for why we’re doing it. The other reason is just a practical matter, Shannon And I have both had been having to work more at our other jobs as we’ve been having to work less at radiology because the funding is just not where it used to be. (1m 40s): And so if you would, so it’s just like hard to schedule times when we’re both available because we’ve more been working a lot outside of this. If you would like to help contribute to make our work here at the podcast and elsewhere on the internet more sustainable, we would, we would share your support. That is, you can do so@atpatreon.com slash Queer Theology, or you can join the community at Queer Theology do com slash community. You’ll also hear the start of this episode. I’m a listener q and a. And so if you have a question that you would like epi answer in a future episode of the podcast, send us an email to connect at Queer Theology dot com or just pop on over to Queer Theology com slash listen and you’ll be able to pop up in the bottom corner. You can record our voice note. We would love to hear your voice like we hear Bellas In this episode. So without further ado, here is Queerness Is A Cornerstone, our queer take on first Peter two, two through 10. (2m 29s): Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. So Brian, what’s going on in your world? Well, I am still on my Danish kick and I’ve, I’ve, I found my, my great aunt’s like Danish cookbook and so I’ve been tackling some recipes there, some that I grew up making. So I’ve been starting with those and I’ve, they’re got, there’s some ones in it that look really interesting, but I don’t think I’ll be doing like pickled herring anytime soon. So I, so I’m just sticking with like the simple stuff that I already know how to make lots of like baked goods and pastries. So that’s been fun to sort of like, since all the gays on Instagram are baking and everyone’s making like cookies and breads and pies, but I’m making like Danish pancake balls and other weird stuff. (3m 18s): So that’s been fun to sort of scratch that itch in addition to learning the language. What about you? Yeah, So I got a book for Christmas that’s called 12 Months of Monastic Soups, and it’s all soups made in monasteries or soups that monks would eat. And I’ve been working my way through that book. I’m still actually in January cooking my way through January, even though it is clearly not January anymore. But that’s been really fun and the soups are quite tasty. They’re super simple and fairly easy to make, but they’re really great. But it is also clear to me that the monks don’t like a lot of spice. (3m 58s): That’s been my one kind of beef with this of, of sometimes wanting to be like, y’all need some red pepper in this. I also got a pasta maker for Christmas, and so that might be my next experiment to make some, some pastas. I got a book called Mastering Pasta, so we might be trying that next, although I don’t know, that might be too much. That is next level. I, I make like zucchini pasta sometimes by just like spiralizing zucchini. But that, that’s as far as I on the pasta train that seems, We got one of those too. I, I once made pasta. I’ve made it one time and it took forever, just forever, forever, forever to make it without any of the equipment and for just one pot of spaghetti. (4m 46s): So I don’t know, but yeah, we’ll see. I’ve got it. So I might as well try it. Yeah, Yeah. Months ago, back when we were able to be in the same place as other people, my, one of our, I went over to a friend’s place for like a big group dinner and someone had brought like mostly pre-made like pasta dough that all we had to do was like knead it some more and then like run it through the machine. And so that was fun to sort of like do a little piece of Before we dive in, this podcast is brought to you by over 130 supporters on Patreon This week we want to give a shout out to James Alameda who joined four months ago. So thank you so much James. Thank you. And if you enjoy this show and you want to support it, you can do that for as little as $2 per month over@patreon.com slash Queer Theology. (5m 31s): You can learn more about why we need your support and you can check out all of the sweet perks. Again, that’s patreon.com/ Queer Theology. Okay, onto the show this week we’ve got a listener question from Bella who is a supporter on Patreon. She recorded an audio question for us, so we’re gonna go ahead and play that now. Hi guys. My name is Bella And I love your podcast. You guys have really helped me to fully accept myself and my sexuality as beautiful and something that God created. So for my question, I was wondering if you guys have any advice on sharing your faith? I grew up in a couple different conservative and non-denominational churches and evangelism and outreach to strangers was huge. (6m 18s): I always felt uncomfortable with it because it was always the turn or burn approach where they would manipulate people into thinking they’re bad and going to hell. And because of this, even though I have a strong relationship with God And I have a church that I love and that is very accepting, it’s still really hard for me to even just tell people that I’m a Christian. So do you guys have any advice on how to share my faith? Because I do wanna tell people about the amazing things that God has done in my life, but I just don’t want to make them uncomfortable or force anything on them. Thank you. Oh man, I really resonate with this question. I grew up in a tradition that said that you had to share your faith and that if you didn’t like people were gonna go to hell and it’s gonna be all your fault. (7m 6s): I once went on this mission trip, I think I’ve may have told the story before, but I called it the mission trip from hell because it was, And I remember they took us to a McDonald’s and they told us that we weren’t allowed to order lunch until we had witnessed to another person. And I just, I remember feeling like so awkward and annoyed and hungry as I’m trying to like find an unsuspecting McDonald’s patron to foist my faith on. And I just remember feeling that it was like super awkward. And so I, I resonate with this question of like wanting to find a way to talk about something that’s important to you in a way that isn’t awkward and uncomfortable. (7m 49s): So Brian, do you have any tips for Bella? Yeah, I think that, you know, lots of folks who grew up in a more conservative, you have to share your faith or sharing your faith is all about converting people so that they like don’t go to hell. I, you know, like I think progressive Christian folks like sometimes have like moved away from that and been like, well we, I don’t want to share my faith in that way because I don’t wanna like put pressure on people or, you know, we believe in sort of interfaith work or that it’s okay to be non-religious or, you know, all those, those things. And I think that’s important to respect people’s journey and where they are. (8m 34s): And you know, we often say like, it’s okay if you’re not Christian. Like that’s okay. And also something has happened like in our lives and we’ve found healing and transformation and grace and clarity in community and that like something really resonates with like the Christian story and with the work that we are doing and what we found. So obviously like we started a podcast and a website, like we believe that that like at its heart, like Christianity and queer Christianity is like, is like worth sharing. And so for me it’s less about when I approach these conversations about trying to like convince someone to do it my way or to believe the things that I believe. (9m 18s): And it’s more about saying like, here’s how I’ve like found life. Here’s how I found healing, here’s how I found wholeness. These are like the effects that have happened. And not just like the effects because like often Christianity is like presented as a sort of like miracle cure. Like I used to be sad and then I found Jesus and now everything’s great. And so it’s like, not about like the before and after, but like we really think that like the transformation happens like in the work that like the beauty and the divinity is found like in the, like in the process and in the muck and in the doing of it. And so I share like the meaning that I’m, that I found, but also that like I’m finding and making and why that’s resonating with me. (10m 1s): And I think that for some folks like Christianity is like the perfect vessel for that. And queer in Christianity, especially if you grew up Christian, like finding this sort of like liberating and transformative understanding of the gospel is gonna be huge. And for some people they might like learn from our process but apply that to their own lives in their own spiritual traditions that they come from or, or, you know, growing up atheist, but having like the baggage of of being like raised in a, you know, Christian supremacist culture, right? Like the process might be similar but but different for someone else. And so it’s, it’s less about trying to convert them to my version of Christianity and more of sharing the work that I have done I am doing and how it’s been meaningful to me Yes to all of that. (10m 48s): And I think it really helps if you can disconnect your sharing from this sense of evangelism, right? Like you are simply just talking about things that are important to you. And if you can disconnect it from this sense that you’re trying to convert or coerce someone to believe the way that you do, I think that it frees you up to just have a conversation with people and you, you can talk to your friends and be like, you know, this is what, this is what’s been going on in my life and like I call this god or theology or Christianity and like, this is why it’s important to you, to me. (11m 29s): And I think that like when you do it that way, it, it takes the pressure off of your friends to respond in a certain way and it it frees them up to be able to just listen and engage with you. And I think too, like if you do have a friend who’s like, you know, I really can’t hear about God or Christianity, like I have too much baggage or trauma around that, then it also lets you say, cool, like I don’t have to talk about that because I don’t have any pressure. I’m not under any pressure to convert you. And I think that that that really helps to, to make, to make sense of, of of how to talk about your faith in a way that feels freeing and good and right for everyone involved. (12m 17s): Absolutely. We wrestle with questions like this, how to integrate our faith into our lives in ways that are real and meaningful and also respectful constantly talking about, about issues of importance. And so if you’re looking to dive into questions like this and others of everything from coming out and families and dating and loss and mental health and coping and quarantine and so much more, and we would love to welcome you as part of Sanctuary Collective, you can learn more at Queer Theology dot com slash community. Okay, let’s open up our bibles and queer this text. (13m 0s): Our text today is first Peter two, two through 10. And I’m gonna go ahead and read that for us. This is from the common English Bible. Instead like a newborn baby, desire the pure milk of the word nourished by it. You will grow into salvation. Since you have tasted that the Lord is good, now you are coming to him as a as to a living stone. Even though this stone was rejected by humans from God’s perspective, it is chosen valuable. You yourselves are being built like stones into a spiritual temple. You’re being made into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Thus it is written in scripture. Look, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion chosen valuable. (13m 40s): The person who believes in him will never be shamed. So God honors those who believe, for those who refuse to believe though the stone, the builders tossed aside has become the capstone. This is a stone that makes people stumble and a rock that makes them fall because they refuse to believe in the word. They stumble indeed this is the end to which they were appointed. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people who are God’s own possession. You have become this people so that you may speak of the wonderful acts of the one who called you out of darkness into his amazing light once you weren’t a people, but now you are God’s people. Once you hadn’t received mercy, but now you have received mercy, A freaking men, Ooh, there is a lot to unpack in here. (14m 26s): There is so much in like every sentence and every word. I just right from the get go, I love that it starts with this idea of being like nourished by the milk of God’s word. And I think like that is a whole sermon right, right there that like, it’s supposed to be nourishing and you know what like nourishment and malnourishment feels like in your body. And so like is is this faith? Is this teaching, is this word that you’ve been taught and that you’re internalizing, is it actually nourishing you and and giving you life freedom, strength? (15m 9s): Or is it leading to depression harm, suicidal ideation? Like do you feel actually sick in your body? And just like learning to trust that is if we like didn’t even go into the rest of the passage, which is just like magnificent, but just this first, just these first two sentences about like being nourished I think is so important. Yeah. And Along with that, I think since you know that the Lord is good, this is such a huge point, right? If you know the Lord is good because you’ve tasted yes that the Lord is good. And so like if your conception is that God is a bully that is going to smite you for being gay, then like you aren’t tasting that the Lord is good. (15m 50s): And so, you know, we get so many emails for at Queer Theology emails over and over again asking like, how do I know it’s okay to be gay? How do I know that I’m not like damning myself? How do I know that God won’t smite me? And I think like this is the answer, right? Like if you are tasting that the Lord is good, then you can be assured that God won’t smite you because a good God won’t damn you or smite you just for being yourself. Yeah. And I know in the past we’ve talked about like learning to trust our bodies and we, we really go into depth in some of our courses inside a sanctuary collective. But like we’ve been sometimes been taught that like we, like can’t trust our bodies. (16m 34s): And I just love that the, the language used here is about like bodies and senses, right? It’s like nourishing and you can just like taste it and we have to, we can’t experience God without the sensations of our body. Oh, I just love this. Okay, so like, moving on to the other part, there’s then there’s this whole thing about, about the stone that has been rejected. And I just think this is such a beautiful metaphor for, for queer folks and our power shea. What would you say about that? I think this other idea, this idea of the rejected stone, the cornerstone, you know, we’ve, we’ve talked about this at Queer Theology a lot and not, not necessarily in these words, but this idea that like the faith of queer and trans people is so rich because we’ve, we haven’t been able to take anything for granted. (17m 23s): You know, everything that we believe, everything that we say, everything that we’ve done in the church has been something that we’ve really had to wrestle with and fight for and, and make space for ourselves in that. And I think that like, because we don’t take anything for granted because we’ve done such hard work, the faith that we have is so rich and so deep and so filled with life and goodness. And I think that like this faith that has come from our sense of rejection becomes then this cornerstone that not only queer and trans people can build on, but that like straight and cisgender people can build on as well. (18m 12s): Like it becomes this monument to a faith that is full and life-giving and leads towards wholeness. And that’s so incredibly beautiful and that because of the work that we’ve put in and the the ways that we’ve turned rejection around, we’ve created this cornerstone to this building that is our lives, that is this monument, this royal priesthood that is going to change the world. Yeah, And I think that there’s something important to note in here about how, you know, this is the stone that makes people stumble in a rock that makes them fall because they refuse to believe in the word they stumble. (18m 54s): And so like, if like people don’t recognize like your queer Christian glory, that’s on them. Like, you’re like transphobic pastor, you’re like homophobic parents, they’re like, you’re like weird uncle. Like they’re, they’re like missing out on something. They’re missing out on this royal priesthood, this holy nation, right? And you got something remarkable inside of you and that’s on, that’s on them if they’re missing out on that. Alright, that was today’s episode. I hope that y’all enjoyed this Throwback episode and reflection. I know that as I was listening back to it before recording this little intro and outro, I, I found something new gem that touched and inspired me. (19m 40s): And so I hope that is the same for you. You may have heard we referenced a few courses that were coming up at the time of the recording. Those have obviously passed since this episode was like from a few years ago. They live on demand inside of our learning and community hub. There’s courses and workshops on reading the Bible, purity, culture, sex and relationships. More generally, transgender like being a transgender person of faith, being a trans ally and spiritual practices lots more. So if you would like to get access to all those as well as an interactive community of queer spiritual seekers and people of faith from all around the world and help to support the work that we do here, you can do that at Queer Theology dot com slash community. We would love to have you inside. (20m 21s): Alright, talk to you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Throwback: Queerness Is A Cornerstone appeared first on Queer Theology.

Pride brings out many people trying to show their support for the LGBTQ+ community and an interesting conversation about how churches show up at Pride inspired this week’s episode. In this conversation, we explore the role of churches supporting and engaging with the LGBTQ community during Pride Month. We have some practical insight on how churches can show genuine involvement, service, and inclusivity, while showing up meaningfully at Pride events and beyond.   Takeaways Pride Month is celebrated globally, creating a sense of connection among queer individuals. Churches should actively participate in Pride events to show support for the LGBTQ community. Involvement should be led by queer and trans individuals within the church community. Churches must avoid centering themselves and instead focus on the needs of the queer community. Aesthetic presentation at Pride events matters; churches should invest in their displays. Service and support should be prioritized over recruitment at Pride events. Churches can provide tangible support, such as water stations for marchers. Engagement with the queer community should extend beyond Pride Month. Ongoing education and training are essential for creating inclusive church environments. Churches should explore diverse ways to incorporate queer culture into their programming.   Chapters (00:56) Churches and Their Role in Pride Events (04:00) Guiding Principles for Religious Groups at Pride (07:08) Tangible Support and Service to the Queer Community (10:02) Engaging with the Community Beyond Pride Month (12:59) Creating Inclusive Spaces Year-Round (15:56) Ongoing Education and Awareness for Inclusivity (19:10) Broader Engagement with Queer Culture (22:07) Building Lasting Relationships with the Community   Resources:.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and happy third week of Pride. It kind of feels like advent, where you’re like lighting the candles every, every Sunday of Advent, like marking, marking the weekends of, of pride. And I know in different parts of the country, not everyone or the world, not everyone celebrates Pride month in June, so people do it in August, September, October, but I, I know lots of people around the world are, are celebrating pride this month. (55s): And so it’s, it does feel kind of cool that like every weekend as it goes on, like somewhere in the world it is, it’s pride somewhere. It’s sort of like a, a pride is sort of rolling across the world. And so there’s, there’s something, I dunno, mystical, magical, but feeling connected to, to queer folks everywhere. And so keeping with a Pride month theme a few days ago inside of our online community Sanctuary Collective, one of the members posed a question. So the community that sparked some really interesting discussion in the comments there. And so we thought that we would sh bring that to y’all for today’s podcast episode. So Hannah, inside of Sanctuary Collective was asking about how churches can show up at Pride. Her church for the first time ever was going to be active in three different pride events they were doing, being a part of services and being the table, being in a table at the Pride in the Park celebration. (1m 44s): And so she was asking, what are people’s experiences with churches and pride activities and how do, how do each person’s, each member’s church do to help with pride? And how do you make it more than just a token or a show of support? And what would we like to see churches do that would better enrich pride as queer people in general and as as queer Christians in particular. So there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of fun discussions, the comments there. I know that Shay, you And I have both been involved in churches that have been in, been at, have, have had active, have had active presences at Pride. We’ve also been on like the receiving and we’ve just been at Pride and seen churches show up sometimes in better and worse ways. (2m 24s): And so like as you think about churches and religious groups in general at Pride, let’s like start with high guiding principles and then like maybe like work down into some like nitty gritty specific suggestions. So what are some like guiding principles for religious congregations or religious groups at LBT LGBTQ pride events or during Pride events? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a couple of, like, really, I, I have so many like tactical nitty and gritty thoughts, and so I’m trying to, trying to keep it really high level. You know, I, I think the first thing is to make sure that your church is there via invitation. (3m 7s): Meaning that whatever your presence is, that you are being led by queer and trans folks in your community. So like, if you have queer and trans folks in your congregation, make sure that you are showing up in a way that like is led by and feels good to those folks. And if you don’t have any queer and trans folks in your congregation, then I might ask you to consider why you are showing up at Pride and what that means and what that looks like. And you know, how you might, that, that probably might not be the best way for you to begin to engage with the queer and trans community that you might have some work to do before showing up at Pride. (3m 48s): The other thing that I would say really high level is like making sure that your presence is centering the queer and trans community and not centering you. So I, we have seen, I’m gonna say it again, I feel like I say it every year, but like, do not show up to pride and apologize on behalf of Christians. Like, it’s not helpful, it centers you and your feelings. It, it’s like, it may feel meaningful in the moment, but like, it’s not actually meaningful change or practice. So I, I just like, stop doing that. It’s, it’s gross and it’s icky. (4m 28s): And so I would say that like a message to, on a positive note, like to show up with is, you know, centering the fact that like queer and trans folks are beloved of God. Like, that is a message that you can center, you can talk about, you know, what your church is doing on behalf of, and queer and trans folks and how you are like fighting for queer and trans rights. Like, I think that’s another really great thing to do. I think lots and lots of folks tack and all are welcome here at our congregation logo on their sign or whatever. And I just, so I would encourage you to be like, how, how might we go even deeper into this practice? (5m 14s): Maybe you show up and you say like, what have we learned from queer and trans folks? How have queer and trans folks like deepened our our sense of ourselves and and impacted our community? Like, those are all things I think to highlight. And, and, and then the other, like, this is both a a little bit of a tactical thing, but also a big picture thing like show up looking your best. I just, I’ve seen a lot of churches come to pride and have just the crappiest display and church stands and like, this is the, this is the time to put a little bit of money. (5m 55s): And I put a little bit of thought and get some of the artists in your congregation involved and like do something that’s pretty, because like it’s pride and queer folks are, you know, not to dive into stereotypes, but lots of queer folks are very artistic. And when you show up with your wrinkly tablecloth that has bad coloring, it just makes you look bad. So yeah, show up, show up and show out for pride. Yeah, I think that there’s like the, the sort of emotional core of there also is that like, we don’t want to feel like an afterthought or that you sort of like threw something together. Right? Yeah. I think some high level suggestions for me is like, how can you lead with like service rather than, and support rather than like recruitment, right? (6m 45s): If you’re like, I would not say that you’re like going Tory to try to like recruit new LGBT members to come to your like, awesome church that’s like, so inclusive, like that, like might be true, but like lots of queer folks don’t wanna engage in religion at all. Or Christianity in particular. Like that’s not why they’re there. Some pe some folks are. And so like, it’s not that like the people who want to, who wanna come to your church will see you and and find you because of that, but like recruitment should not be your primary goal being of service and showing, showing support should be of your primary goal. So along though, like with that, are there like tangible things that you can do to support queer people or pride in general? (7m 25s): My, the church that I was a member of for many, many years in New York City, it was right along the, the parade or March route on Fifth Avenue. And so rather than marching the parade ourselves, we would set up water tables and hand out water to the marchers. It was like maybe halfway along the route, it gets hot in the summer. And so it was like this like very tangible act of service that we were doing for the marchers of giving out cups of water. Now, of course, like some people were like, oh my God, this is a church doing it. Like, that’s so cool. That’s so awesome. I love that there’s a church here. And some people I’m sure came to the church because of seeing us out there, but like that wasn’t the primary reason why we were there. And it, we also weren’t like out there with signs that say like, this church like loves you or like, we’re sorry or like, come to our awesome church, right? (8m 12s): It was just sort of like, we’re a church and we’re like led to do this. And so here we are. It was very sort of like, matter of fact, if you have services, like make sure that you’re like inviting queer and trans folks to speak at those services, to have a few organize like book talks or workshops, like plan to maybe hire a a queer trans speaker or two, and then also like use pride month to make plans for the rest of the year. You know, Shannon, you were saying earlier, like if you don’t have queer or trans people at your church to, to take the lead, like that might be a moment of introspection for why. And so like, it might be that you can sort of like use Pride month to sort of like as an assessment for where your shortcomings are and how you can do better all year round. (8m 60s): So those are some high level suggestions that I would share. Well, I also wanna add, you know, a as you think about being of service, you know, I I I also think, you know, there are always protestors at Pride and so like how might your congregants your straight and cis congregants show up and be a barrier, you know, helping to wall off protesters. You know, I, I think about the folks that that showed up for Matthew Shepherd’s funeral with, you know, the giant angel costumes and they, like, they didn’t engage with the protestors, they weren’t yelling back, they weren’t, they just blocked them from view and thereby, you know, rendered them ineffective. (9m 43s): And so that, that’s, that’s another thing that you could be doing that is like a tangible act of service to the community that like centers the experience of, of queer and trans folks. And I think that that’s something that could be really powerful. Yeah, And I would also add, like, as you’re thinking about service and support to like, remember that like the queer community and Christians aren’t like two separate groups that queer Christians exist, that the, that the divine is already moving amongst queer people, even queer people who don’t identify as Christian, right? And so it’s not like on behalf of all of Christian Christians, like, we have to do this like for queer people. And so like if you can also find places that sort of acknowledge the intersections that already exist and like in sort of a very queer and Christian way, sort of like blurring those boundaries right between these two groups and saying like, what does it look like if to sort of like, you know, act in solidarity if we’re, if for those of us who are straight cisgendered, like to act in solidarity and to not necessarily, like sometimes it isn’t important just to say that I’m a straight ally, but sometimes it’s important to just sort of like show up just to show up as a person or as a Christian and sort of, it doesn’t, you don’t have to necessarily like make a point that you’re straight and or a church and or Christian. (10m 58s): Yeah. Yeah. And I think along those lines, like there also might just be benefit for churches to show up at events around pride, right? Like maybe, maybe you’re not in a place where a table is what you should be doing. Like maybe what you should be doing is walking through the pride fairgrounds and like finding out about all of the organizations that are working in your community and asking them what they need and how your church can support and show up and help them. You know, maybe you are going around and making sure that you sign all of the petitions or donate to the organizations that are desperate for funding, right? Like there are lots of ways that you can center queer and trans folks and be useful and helpful without having your own table or just simply inviting people to, to your events and, and your congregation. (11m 53s): Oh my God, I love that idea. Like imagine like organizing and like organizing a group of people, like making, making a kind of like an official event that you plan, you like reach out to people and you plan like we’re gonna like get together in groups of four or five and sort of like roam around and say hello to people. Pick up information, like buy some cool stuff, like make some donations, sign petition and like maybe you’re, maybe you have a big enough church that you can have like multiple pods of people running around. I think that that could be like a really cool impact. Well, and that could be the launching point off to like plan for the rest of your year too, right? Of like, yeah, what are, what are the groups that we learned about at Pride that we want to highlight in our worship services or in our bulletin that we wanna make the, the recipients of our monthly community giving that we want to engage with more and like build a relationship with and, and make that ongoing, right? (12m 46s): Like this is, that can be the start of of building those connections and making sure that you’re actually actively involved in your community. Yeah. I’m thinking also, And I think you touched upon this of like there are probably groups out there that need places to meet for free or for very cheap. And so like, can you open up your building to like the transport group or to a local like, you know, queer arts organization that is, you know, struggling to stay out, stay, stay, stay active and, and making a plan for bringing in people year round. So it’s not just like, oh, we have like queer and trans people talk during pride month, but like, okay, cool, so make sure, you know, in June that like, oh, we should have someone talk in August or September or January. (13m 31s): Also, it’s not just only that you don’t limit it to to to pride month. Yeah. And then I think also like making sure, like it’s the, I think this is a good, i a good time of year, like to do sort of like, and you should really start this process sooner. So sorry that this episode didn’t come out in like April instead of June, right? But like, using, using Pride as sort of like a, a, an annual check-in sort of like self-accountability moment of like, is our church actually safe and welcoming and accessible and inclusive of LGBTQ people? And like, just because you check it off one year, like sometimes a like cultures shift or buildings change, the policies like just sort of also change or like the cultural around us changes and, and, and what used to be an accepted norm in the queer community and no longer is, and so you wanna just like make sure that you’re staying current. (14m 25s): And so doing an audit of things like language on your website, photos on your website, the types of programs that you have and what they’re named and how you talk about them. And especially like if you have gendered programs, do they need to be gendered? Why are they gendered? How do you talk about their gender to nature? So I talk about mentioned bathrooms, bathrooms, absolutely. Like if, if you have a, a welcoming And I and message somewhere, like on a sign or on a pamphlet or in the church bulletin or on your website, what does that say? How are people able to like, share and have their pronouns respected? Do you have greeters that have been trained in sensitivity around names and gender and directing people to bathrooms appropriately and not making assumptions about all that sort of stuff? (15m 12s): And, and some of these things, right? Like, like any person who controls the website can slap a pride flag on the bottom of the website, right? Or update the language. But some of this is gonna be or require some like systemic changes or some like ongoing work. Like if you have volunteer greeters, you’re going to constantly be needing to like train and update that training. And as you welcome new volunteer greeters to the team to make sure that they know about asking people for their names, not making assumptions about pronouns, being sensitive to language, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that like, because you could have a really welcoming church environment and then three new greeters come on six months later and, and suddenly the whole vibe is different when a queer person or a trans person walks in the door. (15m 58s): And so, and, and by no one’s like, and that’s not like an intentional action even that happens that’s just sort of like, this is a process that you kind of have to always be like vigilant about because it’s not, it’s not welcome. And inclusion is not a passive action. It’s an active choice. Yeah. And I also think about like looking at your youth programming and making sure that you’re, you’re making space for gender fluid and gender non-conforming toddlers and young people and kids. And also making sure that you are being aware that you might have poly parents and same gender parents and making sure that all of your signup forms actually have a place to acknowledges the reality of people’s families. (16m 45s): I I think that we often do inclusive work around adults and forget our families and forget our kids. And so making sure that that that is also part of the work is, is really, really important. And I loved what you said about an audit, right? I, I can’t tell you how many churches I’ve worked at and interacted with who are very proud of like, when they became LGBTQ plus affirming, like whenever they took the official vote, whatever it is in that denomination reconciling in Christ or more light or et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. But when you ask like, okay, and then when’s the last time that you’ve had a training for your congregation about language or issues facing the queer community? (17m 32s): And it’s like, not since they took that vote. It’s like, okay, yeah. Then you might, you might wanna rethink that and, and get that Yeah. You know, back on your calendar. I think it’s, ’cause like you said, things shift and it’s important that we’re staying up to date. Yeah. And I’m thinking about like how you, you can incorporate queerness in a way that isn’t about, like, that’s not always about talking just about like what it means to be queer or that someone is queer, right? So like, yes. Like sometimes these like sensitive training trainings are important. Like, and it can’t, it, I don’t think it should, should stop there. Like how can you have like film screenings not just about like before the Bible tells me so, or that like 19 whatever documentary about the translation about homosexuality in the Bible, but like a TV episode discussion of like the TV show pose or reading, reading romance or sci-fi or like speculative fiction or whatever that by queer authors having like going to a queer dance show. (18m 34s): Like it being sort of like broader than having queer people that are talking about not just like what the Bible says about homosexuality, but having queer people talk about liberation and good news and the gospel and the reconciliation of all things, or interfaith dialogue or like, it doesn’t always have to be like the queer person talks about defining queer terms, so, right. Because I think like we all have more to share than just that. And so the more that you incorporate it in sort of like really nuanced and organic ways all year long, but especially in pride month. So think, think multimedia lee and think multidisciplinary and think of sort of a di diversity of topics, not just sort of like LGBTQ and the Bible. (19m 16s): Yeah. And I think that really also fits in with what you said earlier about like examining the reasons that you’re going to pride in the first place to bring it back to pride of like, you know, yeah, this isn’t necessarily, or just about getting more people to come to your congregation. And it’s like, yeah, it’s really thinking about like, what does it look like for us to be a queer and trans affirming, welcoming, inclusive space? And like, why, why are we showing up at Pride? Like what, what are we hoping to get out of this experience? And also like, how are we hoping to engage with this, this experience? Yeah. I think that that is really, really important. And, and then to be really intentional about like, okay, this is back to some nitty gritty taxes of like, if you have a table at Pride, like what is your messaging? (20m 4s): How are you inviting the community to come talk to you? How are you training your volunteers that are sitting at the booth about like, how to interface well with the queer and trans community? What are you giving away? What is, you know, like what is on your postcards, et cetera, et cetera. And just really being intentional and thoughtful about that. I’ll also say like, this is again, just a really tactical thing, but the amount of churches that give swag away, but then like, don’t have anything, any contact information on that is like, just, just also be smart about the fact that you’re spending money to get stuff made. (20m 46s): So like, I don’t know, maybe have your website on it. And this is not just churches I’ve seen do this. There was a, a huge, it was a bank in Minneapolis that printed lip balms one year with their company logo, but not their company name or website. They spent thousands of dollars on this and like gave them away. And like, no one has any idea, you get home with a bag of swag, you don’t know where any of that stuff comes from. Yeah. So like, again, like I, I think the thought behind that was useful. Like, let’s use something different and do this kind of like, cool, it wasn’t like a chapstick it was like a, a round lip balm thing, like a really cool idea, but then yeah, no follow up. (21m 32s): And so yeah, thinking too about like your congregation too, of like, if you’re gonna give stuff away, what is your plan to follow up with people who might reach out? And, and also realizing that like pride is one touch that you have with your community and it might take multiple, multiple, multiple touches before people actually think of you and your congregation as a safe space. Or actually think of your, your church as a place that they might wanna show up. And so like yeah. Also don’t put all of your eggs in the Pride basket and be like, well, you know, we checked off, we checked off our pride table and like, I don’t know, gay people still aren’t coming to our church and so we must just not be cool enough or whatever. (22m 21s): Right? Like, be be, yeah. Also have a realistic view of what it looks like to build community, not just like Yeah. With queer and trans people, but like with your community. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So if you wanna have conversations about this and other topics, how to make your churches safe and inclusive for LGBTQ people, what that looks like on just like all the intersections of queerness and spirituality and faith. I’m coming to Sanctuary Collective. We would love to have you with the edge.com/community. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (23m 1s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Tips for Churches at Pride appeared first on Queer Theology.

Communities can be complex. We delve into the complexities of relationships, the nature of goodness, and the challenges of community dynamics. We explore the idea of labeling people as “good” or “bad,” and emphasize the importance of understanding inherent goodness and the health of individuals. We also touch on the necessity of boundaries within communities and the role of compassion in navigating difficult relationships. Ultimately, we are advocates for a nuanced approach to community building and self-reflection, and encourage y’all to embrace the complexities of human interactions.   Takeaways The distinction between good and bad people is not helpful. Everyone imagines themselves as the good person in their narrative. Understanding inherent goodness can help navigate complex relationships. Communities should create spaces for health and healing. Boundaries are essential for maintaining healthy relationships. It’s important to differentiate between beliefs and actions in community dynamics. Compassion for others can coexist with the need for boundaries. Self-reflection is crucial in understanding our impact on others. Navigating relationships with family can be particularly complex. Embracing the gray areas of life can lead to healthier communities.   Chapters (00:00) Exploring Relationships and Polarization (07:00) Understanding Goodness and Health (13:57) Navigating Community and Boundaries (20:51) Compassion and Complexity in Relationships   Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We’re excited to join you today for another conversation. In one of those kind of weird synchronicity moments, both Brian And I had similar notes of things that were on our mind that, that we wanted to talk about. And so we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk through this idea, and one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, I’ve been hanging out with a lot of folks who normally I wouldn’t hang out with and have been kind of thrown into a relationship with them, and it’s causing me to like really challenge a lot of my thinking And I, some of my own biases and, and preconceived notions about like, I don’t know, for lack of a, of a better term, like quote unquote good people and bad people. (1m 21s): And, And I think that, like, I, I don’t know, as I look at the world, I see like so much Polarization, right? And I think especially in online communities, but not just online communities, there’s a, there’s a lot of impulse to, to name people as good or bad or right or wrong, or like, these are my people and those are not my people. And, and I’ve just been in these, in these situations with people and forming relationships with people that are like complicating that notion of, of quote unquote good people and bad people or problematic people and whatever the opposite of problematic people is. (2m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. And then at the same time, I’ve been reading this book called Cherished Belonging by Father Gregory Boyle. He’s the founder of Homeboy Industries, which is the largest gang intervention program in the world. And it’s this book that’s all about seeing all people, including ourselves as like inherently good and as good just as we are. And so I, I’m gonna maybe start us off with a quote and then we’ll, we’ll launch into this Brian and see, see what resonates with you. So he has this, this quote where he says, he’s talking about like people holding negative views or, or views that we would consider negative. (2m 47s): He said they hold this belief not because they’re cruel, but because they are strangers to themselves. That is not a value judgment, but a health assessment for nothing can touch anyone’s goodness, not even holding such a view. Goodness and belonging remain intact no matter what unhealthy notion we find ourselves clinging to. And I read that quote and had to like, put the book down for a little bit and kind of grapple, grapple with my own feelings about it. And so I’m wondering how, how that, how that quote strikes you and, and what, what comes up for you in these, these ideas? Yeah. I mean, I have for a long time now felt like the distinction of good people versus bad people is like not a helpful one for like two reasons. (3m 36s): One is that like everyone imagines themselves to be the good people. And So just like practically speaking, it’s like not a useful paradigm because like there’s like not a universally agreed upon definition of good people and bad people. And so like we all, we’re all someone else’s bad person, right? But also, like, even for the people that I would consider like bad people or doing harmful things or people that frustrate me or that I disagree with or whatever, it might be problematic, like doing things that are problematic, I think. And I think this comes from sort of like a moral ethical, perhaps like a religious conviction that like we’re all good people and that, or maybe we’re just neutral people. (4m 21s): I don’t know, we’re all like, like we’re good or neutral and that like we can do things that harm, right? And so it’s actually more useful to be like, this thing that you are doing or they’re doing has this effect and that effect causes harm or like brings healing, right? Because I think like two things happen if it’s you. Like when you label someone as like a bad person or a good person, it’s like if they’re a bad person, then like they’re irredeemable and they’re, and if you’re a good person, I’ve just like seen it be used as like an excuse to excuse shitty behavior because it’s like, well, I’m a good person, so therefore like the harmful things that I’ve done don’t count or something. (5m 8s): But so that, so like I, that’s the sort of backdrop, and then when you, that particular quote, yeah, I mean, I think that I like intellectually agree with it. And also I also had a catch in Mia sort of like, well, it just Like, is it ex is there like, like is there an excusing happening, right? Where it’s like, because I I of, of this bad behavior or of this person who’s causing harm, like it’s not that they’re cruel, it’s that they’re, And I now, I forget the exact quote, but like, no, they’re, they’re there are stranger to themselves, right? And that like flies in the face of like, I think a, a meme that folks often, I, I’ve been seeing a lot like a, a verbal meme that I’ve even said that like the cruelty is the point, right? (5m 55s): That like, there’s a certain segment of, I’ll talk about us, the US population of the US political system and also the US like voters. But it seems to, they like seem to delight in the cruelty. Like I think I already include a light evangelical Christians who like, I’m going to have it and you’re going to hell. And I get to sort of like delight in the fact that like, I’m, I, you’re going there and I’m not. And so it, like, I do some, it does, it does strike me as like, no, some people are cruel. And also in the times where I’ve been subjected to like interpersonal cruelty as opposed to like systemic injustice, and I’ve been close enough to that person to really see the full picture, I’m like, And I hadn’t stopped to think about this until we started talking about, about this book and this quote. (6m 49s): I was like, oh, yeah. Like that person is like a stranger to themselves is like deeply uncomfortable. Is afraid. Yeah. And so, like if that’s true about the people that have like harmed me, that I am close enough to sort of like know them three dimensionally, like presumably it’s true about people that I don’t know that well, because it just seems like there’s a, the, the, the pattern here. And so like, how do you hold this tension of like, well, maybe that’s true, but also that doesn’t excuse it, and like, where do you go forward? So that’s sort of all the stuff that sort of bubbles up for me as I hear it, this particular passage. (7m 30s): Yeah. And I think, I think that obviously I gave you a quote and I’ve finished the book, and so like, you know, I think that, that he would agree with you and and also say that like, people who delight and cruelty are not healthy people, right? Like going back to like, it’s not a value judgment, it’s a health assessment. One of the things that, that he talks about a lot in this book is that like, then the job becomes like if people are strangers to themselves, if people are living in this state that is unhealthy, a that doesn’t mean that we can’t have boundaries, right? (8m 10s): He talks often about like that, that there are certain people that are not welcome or he wouldn’t say not welcome, that are, are invited to go get healthy before they come back to homeboy industries, right? Or they are, they’re invited to like go seek help for a while elsewhere before they come back because their behavior is such that they are harming the community. And like that can’t be allowed. And I think that that’s actually a healthier posture than a lot of churches that I’ve seen that are like, But we can’t tell this person that they can’t come because that wouldn’t be a nice thing to do to them. And then meanwhile, right, the person who’s unhealthy and homophobic, spews whatever they want all over the queer folks in the congregation, right? (9m 1s): Like we’ve, we’ve seen that happen over and over again. Yeah. And then the church doesn’t actually do anything to help the person who Right. Is just doing the spewing. Right? It’d be one thing if they were like actually intervening, but they’re like usually not and maybe like don’t have the resources or the bandwidth or the like, expertise to be doing that sort of intervention. Yeah. Yes. But I, but, but his larger point then is I, I think like all about like, what is our role as communities? And, and his big thing is like we as communities need to be creating communities of health and places where people can come back to health and, and Stop being strangers to themselves. (9m 44s): And I think that like, that is even more challenging to, to me than, than thinking about the first part of that quote. ’cause like I can intellectually ascend to everyone’s goodness. I struggle to ascend to the fact that I then need to be in community with them. And so, and, And I, And I think that there’s like, there’s nuance there, right? There’s tension there of like, I don’t think that we need to be in relationship with people who are actively harming us. Yeah. But I also don’t think necessarily that we get to like only be around people who think and believe the exact same way that we do. (10m 26s): Like I don’t think that that is, that leads to a healthy community either. And so like how do we, how do we make those calls of like, of, of how community forms? And I think that there is something for me about like, there are layers to that, right? Like there is a group of people that I allow in my inner most circle who maybe are people who think and believe the same way I do, and they’re the ones that like I’m gonna be most intimate with and most vulnerable, vulnerable with. And then there’s like another layer, right? And then it comes out and it’s like that outer layer might be folks that I am still in community with, and also they don’t get full access to all of my personhood because like, they can’t, they’re not healthy enough to handle it or, or we’re not in that kind of relationship. (11m 23s): I don’t know. That’s a initial thought. Yeah. Yeah. My first impulse went to sort of a similar thing And I was thinking less concentric circles and more just sort of like different contexts. But I think we’re actually saying the same thing. But like, I was thinking I went to Bobby, unsurprisingly, like organizing, right? Where it’s like, well, if we’re talking about like my deepest, most intimate friendships like that, I’m, I’m gonna have like one standard for that. But like, if we’re organizing around food insecurity, like I, it might behoove me to work with people who I don’t know, like maybe think I like queerness is a sin or like, are voting for Republicans or like whatever, like the thing might be that I don’t love as long as we’re able to sort of like come together around this particular common cause and, and sort of sort of being like, like ally, I don’t know if ies is the right word, sort of like partners in a particular thing as opposed to like deep intimate a bride or die align like allies right. (12m 24s): With one another. And I’m also thinking about, like, I think we, before we started recording, we were talking about like binary thinking, like yes, no. And so I also think that there’s an element of sort of querying, blurring the binaries around all of this and coupled with boundaries, right? And so like, like for people that I are in my personal life, maybe that some that, that fall somewhere between the people that I trust most intimately that were very aligned on one extreme and people who are actively harming me, like physically and trying to like literally murder me on the other extreme that like, how do I say like, well, I can do this, but like, not that, or I’m gonna like, as long as you behave like this, we can coexist. (13m 18s): But like, you don’t, if you’re, I know you don’t really affirm queerness, so like I can have surface level conversations with you, but we’re like, not gonna go deeper, but I’ll like stick around enough that if you wanna change your mind, I’m here. But like, you don’t get an invitation to the dinner party until you’ve like righted your right. Righted your ways. And, and yeah. So I think that there’s like, there’s something about different levels of access for different people. And this also gets back to like the rubric not being, are you a good person or are you a bad person? Or like, have you gone and gotten healed? Right? And then you, and then you can come back once you’re fully healed. (13m 58s): Or like, you can only come to my church if you’re like already a perfect ally. Like obviously no, but maybe you like, don’t get to preach at the church if you’re going to preach anti-gay things. Right? Right. Or like, maybe you’re like, you don’t get to be on the board of elders if you like, don’t think that women should be able to be in leadership, but like, if you can sit and listen and have cordial conversation, like Yeah, come on in. Right? Like that’s a different Yeah. Even if you don’t sort of believe the same ways, And I think it’s less about right. Belief, right? But sort of the impact of your actions, which sometimes flows from your beliefs, but sometimes is in contradiction to that. (14m 43s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a really helpful distinction and nuance. And especially when it comes to like the difference between beliefs and actions, especially in religious spaces, right? Where it’s so, because so often we have equated what it means to, I don’t know, I’ll speak from my church, like be a Christian with belief of like, do you believe the right things that kind of, I don’t know, putting it back on action of like, how are you behaving is, is I think sometimes a little bit helpful. And I know that like folks who grew up in conservatism get a little bit twitchy about that because that has also been used as a weapon. (15m 26s): But, but I think it is like in these moments, you know, thinking about how our, how we’re showing up in spaces and how our actions are impacting people can, can be really helpful. And I think that your point about organizing was also really helpful because I think that sometimes, and especially, I don’t know, I’ve seen this a lot in leftist spaces in particular of, of this idea of like, not only do you have to like believe all of the right things about the issue that you’re organizing on, like there’s an ideological purity, right? That almost comes with before you can organize on this thing, before you can be a part of our collective. (16m 9s): Like you have to ascent in the exact way that we need you to ascent. And I, I just don’t think that that is necessarily helpful and especially in like, the times that we’re living in where we’re desperately gonna need like broad coalitions working really, really hard to like, fix the massive problems we’re facing. Like figuring out what are deal breakers for each of us individually. Like who, who can we actually organize with and like, who can’t we organize with is gonna be, I think, important. I don’t know. And I’m, I guess I’m feeling particularly nudged to maybe be a little bit more expansive in who I’m able to and willing to work with in these times because things are so, so important, right? (16m 60s): The issues that we’re organizing on across a wide variety of things are just really, really vital. Yeah. Especially like for you when you’re in a, in a rural republican dominant state and a republic rural area of the state, like, yeah, listen, If I Guy, you’ve gotta like work with what you’ve got. Yeah. Yeah. If I, if I only worked with people that like I fully agreed with, I would literally be working by myself, like alone in my, in my house. Like there would literally be no one else. Yeah. For me, there’s also a balance between, on the flip side, when we’re talking about ourselves there, for me there’s a balance between self-reflection and self-judgment. (17m 44s): And how do I try to be self-reflexive of who I am and how I’m showing up in the world in general, in particular spaces, in particular relationships in any given moment, the actions that I’m like doing or not doing, the impact that I’m having while also being gentle with myself and like holding that judgment lightly while also not using that gentleness as like a get outta the jail card as, as an excuse to get away with shit. Right? Like, I, like, I can’t be like, well I am queer so therefore like I’m a good person, so therefore I can’t possibly be doing harm. (18m 28s): Or like, I read James Cone or I have a black friend, or like, I, like I I work with trans folks. Like therefore, like I can’t, I have like no room to grow, right? And sort of always sort of like being mindful of where my, where like my growing edges and where might I be like the annoying person in the room that someone is having to like, struggle to organize with. ’cause like, I think it’s like, it’s tempting. I know, I know we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, like especially as, as queer people who have had religion and the Bible used against us to then sort of like reverse that and see ourselves as oh, like we’re the oppressed ones and the Bible is good news for us. (19m 14s): Which the Bible is good news for queer people, right? And to see like, it only is a comforting word. And so how do we hold and tension this sort of being comforted, being challenged, like while also I’m, I am, I am all good, but also I can’t, that’s not good enough sometimes. And to like, I can’t let myself off the hook And I can be good And I can still cause like immense harm. And that can all still be true. And as I say that, probably the more harm you’ve caused, the more important it is for you to remember your goodness so that you don’t spiral into like, well I can’t ever do anything right And I might as well just give up. (19m 60s): I’m a terrible person. ’cause like you going to some sort of like pity spiral about an ouch you caused someone doesn’t hurt, help anyone. But sort of like being able to stand and be like, ah, yeah, I, I fucked that up. Whether it’s like in a moment or whether it’s sort of like, oh, like my whole worldview is being challenged And I, the way that I thought things worked aren’t, And I, I maybe I need to to shift a little bit on that. So yeah. That there’s, it feels like, yeah, I’m just challenged by like grace for others. Grace for yourself, grace in a way that isn’t weaponized to excuse, to make, to make like marginalized people, excuse sh shitty behavior grace that isn’t used to let yourself off the hook. (20m 48s): But also that is sort of like, sees that we are all made in the image of God. And so like then what, like what does that mean? I think about that a lot. ’cause I, I like some, I often not always, I often go through the morning morning prayers for in Judaism, and one of the things is like, like for like, for creating me the image of God. And so like every day I’m reminding myself like, I am created in the image of God. I’m created in the image of God, I’m created in the image of God. And then like, what does that, like, what does that, like what does that mean for me? And how do I show up as that? And it’s, I think it’s, it’s, it’s also true for everyone else. So like what does it mean that like, oh, not to get too personal, but like I have a in-law that is like a homophobe and it’s like, what do I do? (21m 40s): Like what does it mean that he’s created an image of God? Right? Like, I don’t wanna be besties with him. He was not invited to my wedding, but like I see him at our niece’s events sometimes and like, so like, how do I, because I don’t wanna not be there for my niece, right? Like, so how do you hold all that intention and like Yeah, yeah. Messy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is messy. And I think that like, I don’t know, I I think that part of me is, is helped by going back to Boyle’s comment about people not being healthy. And I think that this, you know, I think of a lot about my mom, right? (22m 22s): And, and like I, my relationship with her is, is strained. It is maybe a generous way of, of putting that. But like, I also have a ton of compassion for her because I know how deeply wounded she has been in her life. And I understand very intimately like that the, the construction she has done around her faith is such to keep herself safe from that wounding, right? (23m 2s): Like I, I can see it. And also just because I can see it And I can understand it And I have a lot of compassion for it, doesn’t mean that we are close. Right? And doesn’t mean that like she gets to be in that kind of inner circle. Yeah. It doesn’t make sense. But it has, it has really helped me, I think to have more compassion for her to like, and to, I don’t, I I don’t wanna say forgive, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know what the, what the word is, but like, to, to be able to, in some ways, like release some Yeah, I was gonna say. (23m 43s): Yeah, I was gonna say release. Yep. Yeah, Because it’s like, I, I can like, I understand it and that understanding has been helpful for me. And I, And I think that like what you’re saying too about it’s important that we, we, we understand our own inherent goodness too, right? Like, especially for those of us that grew up in traditions that like did not affirm our inherent goodness. Like that can be a helpful corrective while also holding that tension of like, And I still screw up and there is still more room to grow and there are places in which I am not charitable And I am not living in to full health And I amm not, you know, in touch with myself And I, and so it, not to like leave it on a murky note, but I do think that there is something here about like being, learning to be comfortable in or dealing with or living in the tension of it all, the nuance of it all, the gray of it, all the, you know, queerness of it all. (24m 47s): I, I think is the, is a move toward health, right? Like, and we’re, yeah. It feels like we need more people willing to live in that space in these days in particular. Yeah. You know, I am, I am to, to, as we wrap up, I, I was not at all thinking about this until just now, but I’m realizing that the, this conversation echoes like a number of conversations that we’ve been having inside of Sanctuary collective with people who are, have complicated relationships with their families that are starting to get back in contact with relatives that they haven’t talked to in a long time, that are starting to put up boundaries with relatives that they have been in, in, in close relationship with for a while that are moving and getting married and getting divorced and leaving communities, starting new communities, figuring out they want out communities, recognizing that the communities they’re part of are harmful and what’s like, what to do with that. (25m 43s): And like, so this is like, these are conversations that we’re like really having on a regular basis inside of Sanctuary Collective. And so if you’re like, I got a messy, I got a messy life sometimes or if things feel complicated, like we would absolutely love to like wrestle alongside of you, inside of Sanctuary Collective, you can find more enjoying at Queer Theology dot com slash community. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Complicated Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.

It’s Pride month and we’re sharing some of our thoughts about it in this week’s episode. There are a lot of complexities with Pride Month and we especially want to explore the dual nature of celebration and resistance within the LGBTQ community. With recent funding cuts to arts organizations, the challenges of sustaining movements without corporate support, and the importance of balancing joy with activism, it can seem like there isn’t much to celebrate. But sometimes you have to mix that joy with the hard work and really lean into community engagement.   Takeaways Pride Month embodies both joy and exclusion. Funding cuts to arts organizations threaten queer activism. The nonprofit industrial complex complicates funding for movements. Local and small-scale initiatives are crucial for sustainability. Joy can be a form of resistance against oppression. Celebration and activism can coexist meaningfully. Spirituality provides grounding for activism and community. Historical context enriches our understanding of current movements. Art and community are essential for resilience. Collective joy fuels the fight for justice.   Highlights: (02:25) The Impact of Funding Cuts on Arts and Activism (05:41) The Complexity of Funding Movements (08:02) Balancing Joy and Resistance in Activism (12:45) The Dual Nature of Pride: Celebration vs. Resistance (16:18) Spirituality and Activism: Finding Balance   Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. All right, y’all. It is June 1st. It is the first day of L LGBTQ Pride Month, and there’s a lot going on in the world and with pride and in our little brains, and I’m sure in your brains and in your hearts, and we, as we were getting ready to record, we just we’re like noticing that there are like lots of truths that are all true at the same time. 00:00:54 That like, for many of us, pride month is a time of joy and Celebration and inclusion and sort of like festivities and partying. It’s also true that for many of us, pride is a place where we have felt excluded or unsafe or unseen for. It’s also true that like corporations have been sort of throwing money at Pride to sort of use the LGB, the LGBTQ community as consumers and to sort of get us to buy their business. And maybe there’s this sort of pinkwashing and corporate washing of pride that’s like not great. It’s also true that lots of corporations pulling out all their support from L-G-B-T-Q people and organizations is not a great sign. 00:01:38 It’s also true that Pride got its start over 50 years ago as a remembrance of the Stonewall Rebellion uprising. It’s a protest march. So there’s like this history of, of resistance that is part of pride. It’s also true that pride oftentimes features artists and musicians and creative types of all sorts that like come together to create beautiful political soothing, subversive, entertaining art. And that was all sort of like swirling around in our heads as we’re like getting ready to head into pride month and thinking about like, what does Pride Month mean now this year in 2025 with everything we’ve got going on in our local lives, in the USA globally with the arts, with the police, with the government, with immigration, like, it all just feels like so like ripe. 00:02:38 And so we’re, we don’t have an outline today. We’re just gonna dive in. And so, so sheiks we’re like, where’s your like, head out? Like what are you excited about? Worried about holding onto, like as we head into Pride month? Yeah, yeah. You know, as you were talking about artists, I, I was thinking a lot about all of the cancellation of the NEA grants, which happened, you know, yeah, a little, little close to a month ago as, as this is coming out, but which as we’re recording is very fresh. I’m on the board of an arts organization that lost their funding. 00:03:20 Another organization that has been a huge support to me in the past lost their funding two weeks before the conference that it was supposed to fund began. And it’s just like, you know, this is money that was promised to these organizations. So they planned their budgets around it and they’ve been doing their programming and now, you know, all of that is in question. And lots and lots of these organizations are, are supporting queer and trans folks. Some of them are specifically and explicitly queer and trans led. And so, you know, that’s, that’s really concerning. And, and there’s this kind of narrative, I think in some of these organizations of like, well, donors will step up and, and fill that gap. 00:04:09 And, and for many of these organizations, I do think that that is true. That, right? Like individual donors will step up and and close the gap. And also that’s complicated, right? Because what if you’re a scrappy queer tramp organization that doesn’t have donors that can step up and write thousands upon thousands of dollar checks, like, then what do you do? And I think that that is always the complicated nature of philanthropy. Yeah. And it’s also right, the complicated nature of grant making where we can see a granting organizations quote unquote priorities change in this case with a message that was clearly written by AI and is incomprehensible and coming from the government. 00:04:57 But, you know, we’ve seen this in, in other places in the, in the past even with corporate sponsorships where for a long time, target, for instance, really cared about education and then Target stopped caring about education and all of these organizations like went sideways. Anyway. So I thinking about all of that, but it, it, the thing that is underneath all of that is like, how do we fund the movements that allow us to do the things that a, make life worth living? Like I think that art and artists are what, what make life interesting, but also like how do we fund, for lack of a better word, the revolution, right? 00:05:37 And it’s, and it’s not, it, it’s not target, right? Target, target, the revolution will not be funded by Target and Bezos and et cetera, et cetera. So like thinking through, which Also feels like a very, sorry, which also feels like a very Christian early Christian question, right? Of like, yes, this like scrappy early church movement. I’m thinking about like doing sort of revolutionary subversive work and like how do, like how do they keep it going and fund the people who are sort of not working at fisherman because they’re working, doing, being community organizers. Yeah. Which, you know, as, and as you were talking about, right? I was also thinking about like the early Christian movement and how it did start as a protest movement and how that too, in, in many ways, like pride got commodified and became corporately funded and became organized in a way that Right, in some ways has been really helpful and useful and in other ways has really like taken, taken the wind out of the sails of the movement. 00:06:40 And I think that that is, that’s so complex and it’s so complicated, right? Because there, there are ways in which churches as organizations or as denominations have been able to do really cool things because they banded together and they funded really cool things, right? Like organizations that have built affordable housing or created food pantries or whatever. And also like that is complex as well. I, I’ve been thinking a lot. I, I read Dean Spade has this really great small book on mutual aid, and one of the things that I really appreciated in that book is that he talks a lot about how, he talks a lot about like how in some ways dangerous the nonprofit industrial complex is. 00:07:33 But his big takeaway is that it, we have to be thinking more small and more locally. And I think that that is one of the things that is, that is really on my mind and heart as we think about all of this, right? Like Ashley was saying the other day, like, yeah, we’re gonna need a lot more artists who can just like, create and make things where they are and it’ll be scrappy and it’ll be messy and it’ll be in found spaces. And and a friend of ours at the table was like, yeah, and, and no one’s gonna get paid for that. Like, we’re going backwards. And it’s like, yeah, you know what, probably yes. And that is also I think, yeah, organizing, right? 00:08:15 Like the, the professionalization of everything where we have to get paid to do, to show up is like, I think a problem. And one of the, the things that we’re really gonna have to like figure out moving forward. So those are some of my initial messy thoughts. Does that spark anything for you? Yeah, I think all of that sparks something in me, you know, And I I I think to get a little personal, like we feel that tension here at this work we do@cardiology.com, right? Where it’s like The time that we spend on this project is like time that we can’t be spending, like earning a living elsewhere, but also, like, we also can’t always count on or trust or expect to be able to earn like a full living from this work. 00:09:03 And so we’re constantly working multiple jobs in addition to the work that we do here to make ends meet. And so sort of like scrapping it together And I would like, I would love for this to be like my day job, right? Like that would be Yeah, fantastic. Like, and also it’s like not currently, And I, you can also see like the, the, the, the times in which we’re like more supported by the people who listen to the podcast or consume our resources or use our resources at their churches or buy our books or whatever. Like the more, the more like the more we’re able, the more time we’re then able to spend here doing this work. And in the times where for whatever reasons, like we get less support from the community that, that, that’s okay. 00:09:46 There’s like no judgment on that, but like it also then means we have to spend more time doing other types of work, which then like pulls us away from this work. And so there’s this sort of like, like, yes. And like, it’s like maybe like not a bad thing, quote unquote, like that not everything is professionalized. Like, and also it does mean there’s just like less time to do stuff and sometimes like less quality or to, to your point, like less reach. Like there is something about like an economy of scale that like bigger organizations or groups of people, collectives are able to accomplish more sometimes than because there’s just like less redundancies. It’s like, how do you That’s true. But also we, we don’t wanna dehumanize everything and make it like the most efficient thing possible Right. 00:10:28 And gonna be responsive to local needs. So I like, so that’s sort of like, yeah. So I’m just like, I, yeah, I feel all of that. And I, And I feel like that that is also like attention with clergy too, right? There there is, yeah. There was this push for a while of like, well, clergy shouldn’t be making their money from the church because if they are being paid by the church, A they like can’t be prophetic in the way that they can if like, like they weren’t relying on the church for their income or like b churches could do more if they weren’t having to pay insurance and retirement packages and full-time, you know, salaries for clergy. Yeah. But then the, the trade off of that is like, yes, but then if your pastor is working a nine to five and you have an emergency, they can’t just like leave their nine to five to come be at the hospital with you. 00:11:17 Right? Yeah. Or like if they have to work, you know, Sunday and prep a sermon and they also have to work 40 hours a week, like you’re gonna get the sermon that they can write in their evenings and weekends. Right? Like it’s just a different Yeah. Type of thing. And that I, I think for some people that works, for some communities that work, but I think also like to your point about scale, like that doesn’t work for everyone and it, and, and or the people whom it does work for, like have they, they have other privileges, right? Like it can’t probably work for the mom of three kids, especially not for a single mom of three kids, right? 00:12:03 It’s probably not gonna work for the trans person with no family support, right? Like it’s, we expect that there will be other things in place and that just gets really, really complicated. Yeah. It just, it gets to it like when art or ministry like isn’t funded, it just makes it so that rich people and people with like generational wealth are the ones that have the easiest time at doing those things. And so then, then also then like informs the art that gets created in the ministries that get started and like, you know, we see the terrible, terrible evangelicals are able to like run Super Bowl ads, right? 00:12:44 And yeah, and like the, the like trans lifeline is not because like of funding priorities, right? So that’s all. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I’m also just like sort of thinking about like the tension between like pride as like resistance and pride as Celebration. And I don’t think that they actually, like those two things are like necessarily opposites. Yeah. I think that especially for queer people, I think like queer, like one of the beauties of queerness right? Is that we sort of like, we turn like oppression into camp and we like dance and we like laugh at like as we organize and resist and like the Celebration sometimes Celebration I think like can also be a form of resistance in and of itself to say like, yeah, like life is hard. 00:13:40 Like, and also you’re like, not gonna steal my joy. And, And I, And I think like, so I think it comes down to like, a lot of it is like intentionality, right? Because like you can sort of have like a frivolous celebratory, let’s all just get drunk all month long go to brunches and this amazing, right? And like, it that’s like, not necessarily like resistible, but like if you can sort of like celebrate, keep your eyes wide open at, at, at the horrors that we’re sort of living through. Like, and also choose not to, not to turn away from that and hide from that, but just sort of like to dance in defiance of that feels important. And then also like how do you like organize such that like, it’s not just Celebration that you’re also like taking it into action outside of the dance floor. 00:14:29 I’m like thinking about like, right, right now the scene, I think it was in a movie, but like in the like eighties I presume, or like maybe the nineties, like a gay men health crisis would host like these like big fundraisers to like support people living with hiv aids like in the, like the gay clubs, the gay bars. And so places where like they used to just sort of like drink and dance and had night away they were still drinking and dancing the night away, but now they were raising money to get food or medication or they were like organizing information sessions outta these like same like dance halls and gay bars. And so like, it feels like, like I want it to be like a yes and of like, I don’t, it doesn’t, if we, if we like, if we stop, if we erase all of the joy from our lives, there’s like no point in living and they’ve already won. 00:15:17 Right. And also like if we, if we just sort of tune out and try and drown our sorrows and get drunk and only dance the night away, like things will just continue to get worse for us until we all die. And so like, we, like it can’t be either of those extremes. And so I’m, I’m thinking a lot about like, how do I cultivate joy while like that that turns into like resilience that like fuels the resistance as opposed to like either burning myself out with hardness and sadness or just sort of like sticking my head in the sand. And so like I’m, that’s sort of like the energy that I’m trying to bring into pride 2025 of like dance in the streets and like march in the streets and like throw dinner parties with your friends and also like host mutual aid, like groups with your friends and get to know your neighbors so that you can like bring them food when they need them. 00:16:11 And also like, so you can talk to ’em about local citywide elections, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s all, it feels all swirling together and sometimes like easier said than done. Yeah. It it that I feel like we also talked about those exact same things when we talked about worship and, and ritual, right? That like, it’s the same thing of like if you’re, if your worship and your engagement with spiritual practice is just about comfort and safety and warmth, then like you’re missing something really, really crucial. But also if it’s always about like ex extend yourself and go, go, go and resistance and resistance and resistance, like you, you, that’s not like not sustainable for the long term. 00:16:55 You need some fuel there. And so that there, there’s something in the, like in the mix of being able to find comfort and peace and safety and grounding in your spiritual practice. That is the thing that like connects you to the world and inspires you to go out and to do things and take, engage in justice work. And so like, you know, I think that these connections, like all of the connections that we talk about in queerness, like this is, I think this is also like why faith? Why this, this intersection between faith and queerness is like, yeah, so important and so special because like it gives us a grounding to talk about these things and, and it gives us an even an even deeper history to tap into right there, there is a history in both of, in both of these spaces, but like we might miss that history and tapping into that history if we’re just thinking about the here and now. 00:17:53 Yeah. And you know, I’m, I was also just struck right now about like, about whether it’s like joy or Celebration or partying, whether it’s pride or whether it’s worship. Like it’s not just like, so that we don’t burn out and are able to like keep doing their work. I think that there’s also like a spiritual element here that that, that you’re keying into, like Christians might call it like the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. Like Jews might call it like the world’s of come Ola Haba, right? Like that like there are these sort of like glimpses of what is like not yet fully here, but like in this moment we could see like how it could be and it like reminds us of like, oh yes, like another way is possible. Like we can do more of this. 00:18:34 Like, this is worth fighting to protect and nurture and kindle because like this little thing that we’re seeing here, whether it’s like, I don’t know, man, like I wish people could go back in time and go to the Philadelphia Transgender Health Conference in like 2011, right? Like, that felt like a vision of a world, of the world to come that was like worth like fighting and protecting, protecting or like a really like, like subversive inspiring like drag show that like makes you see the world in a new way or like a powerful sermon or just like that feeling of community that you feel and you’re like with your like queer chosen family, right? Like over a shared meal. There’s like these like moments where you’re like, oh, like this is, like, this was what, like makes worth life worth living And I want everyone to experience this and how can we sort of like fight for this specific thing and also continue to like, make it bigger and more widespread so that like everyone gets a taste of it. 00:19:28 Amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Celebration & Resistance: Let’s Talk About Pride Month! appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re exploring the multifaceted nature of prayer by reflecting on our personal journeys and our evolving understanding of spirituality. There are so many emotional complexities tied to prayer. It can be powerful and so connective to community when we really look at it. And when you are able to queer prayer, this can help break down boundaries and really let you reimagine what prayer can do.    Takeaways Shannon shares his evolving journey with prayer. Prayer can be a means of personal transformation. The emotional impact of prayer can linger long after beliefs change. Community plays a crucial role in spiritual practices. Collective prayer can create real-world change. The allure of traditional prayer can be comforting but also damaging. Engaging with diverse prayers can expand one’s spiritual practice. It’s important to reflect on the theologies we carry. Building community requires intentional action and vulnerability. It’s never too late to form meaningful connections.   Chapters (03:46) Revisiting Prayer and Theology   (06:35) The Emotional Landscape of Prayer   (09:44) Community and Collective Prayer   (12:36) The Allure and Challenges of Prayer   (15:24) Expanding Notions of Prayer   (18:36) The Power of Shared Experiences   (21:34) Building Community Through Prayer   (24:42) The Role of Action in Spirituality   (27:34) Invitation to Connection and Growth     Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We are excited to talk about Queering Prayer today. I feel like, I don’t know about you, Brian, but I have had a journey with prayer over the course of my life of different Yeah. Like ways that I believed prayer worked or didn’t work, or how it made me feel or didn’t make me feel. 00:00:56 And I’ve been, I’ve been working with, with some folks lately who have a very different view of prayer than I currently do, but it’s very similar to the view that I grew up with, which is making me like, I don’t know, revisit some, some thoughts on prayer. And so thought this would be interesting. So I, I, I’ll, I’ll start by sharing, you know, like I grew up in a tradition that really believed that prayer worked, and it was everything from like praying that God would make it sunny on the day of our, like church picnic to God would provide a parking spot to, like, prayer would make God forgive us our sins and, and get us into heaven. 00:01:40 And so it was very and Really quickly, like not to be too like pedantic, but like you, I already have questions. Like you said, we believe that prayer worked, right? Like, And I feel like a lot is hanging on and maybe, maybe I’ll get to that, but like I look a lot is hanging on the word worked. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was this sense of like, you, you prayed and you asked for things and God would do it, but that, and then even when it, like you didn’t get the answer that you wanted, God was still doing something right. It was this very like, twisted logic around. It was Like, God, the answer is he God always answers. It’s just like, yes, no, or not yet. Yeah, exactly. A line I Got and, but I, there was like a, there was both a safety in that right, of like, of feeling like you were heard and believing that God listened to every single prayer. 00:02:33 There was also a sense of like, I don’t know, sometimes whatever the solution was did feel like a miraculous intervention, right? Like I, I’ve heard so many stories of people being like, I needed exactly $500 And I prayed and like I ran into a stranger who offered me $500, right? It like God is, is actively working on our behalf. And so like I, I grew up with that and but also like baked underneath that for me was always the sense of fear that I wasn’t praying right? And not if I was praying too selfishly that God would not only not give me what I wanted but would gimme the opposite. 00:03:19 And like there were times when that happened And I felt like I was being punished because I was like selfish with my prayers, yada, yada, yada. Flash forward a bunch of years to where I was like, prayer doesn’t work like that. We shouldn’t be praying like that. That’s like a bad, that’s bad theology. It’s bad theology of prayer. Like prayer isn’t to get God to change, it’s to get us to change. And that’s, I, I’m, but now I find myself kind of somewhere in the middle, right? Of like, I, I don’t know, like I don’t know entirely what prayer does. I don’t think that like we have to try to like convince God to give us things by begging in prayer. 00:04:03 Like that is definitely not what I believe. But I do think that there’s something about like trying to tap into that which is bigger than us, that helps me like potentially reorient myself to what is already going on in the world. And, and sometimes I think it does like make me aware of things. It makes me pay attention in ways that I might otherwise miss. And then that sometimes feels like God is answering the prayer, right? Like I think that, you know, what’s that? There’s that old joke about a guy who’s like on a house and the yeah, the thing is flooding and a boat comes by and he doesn’t get in the boat and then whatever. 00:04:43 And he finally is like, God, why didn’t you save me? And God’s like, well, I sent you a boat. I sent you a helicopter, right? Like, I sent you all these things and you weren’t paying attention. And I think that there’s like that to me, there’s something to that in prayer. All of that to say that I also then think that like as I’ve, as I’ve gotten more settled in my theology and my thinking, I also see a lot of things as prayer, right? Like there, there like music can be prayer and poetry can be prayer and liturgy is prayer and extemporaneous praying, right? Like just having a conversation with whoever is out there is prayer and, and so is like swearing, right? 00:05:28 Like all of all of these different things, like all of this can be prayer. And so like that too, I, I think has, has led me to a more expansive, And I think that is where like queerness feels like it comes in of like, I can, I can pray and engage bodily in prayer and because I’m queer and trans like that automatically queers and trans is my right. Like all of all On prayer from me. Yeah. There’s like, like a blurring of boundaries and binary shown sort of like what is prayer? Yeah. It also reminds me of that like, you know, I wanna sing that’s, it’s that song. 00:06:08 It’s probably like Michael W. Smith or Jar of Clay. It’s like, like, like breathing out and breathing in before we start again. You know, that song in it’s let us Pray. There’s, if you’re listening and you know what song I’m trying to get at, it’s like pray without ceasing. And, and now when you get to the end, let, let us start again. Like, like it is a, a very conservative Christian song about prayer, but there’s also like, I like, I think that also if what you’re talking about feels like very queer and also it’s like, I do think that, like, I would imagine, I don’t know, I would imagine like Pope Francis also sort of feels like he prays in in times other than just when he’s like on his knees holding his hands talking to God, right? 00:07:01 That like, yeah, yeah. You like, you don’t, like, I think that queerness helps us to sort of like blur boundaries and break down binaries and forces us to reimagine this. Like, and also like, again, this is like what’s so beautiful Queer Theology, I think like everyone can, like everyone can sort of like queer prayer, reimagine prayer. I, I think like you, I’ve had a few phases of relating to prayer. I think like from childhood through, I don’t know, like somewhere around like 16, 18, I definitely had that sort of like there is a person that I call God, he dad, Abba, who is like listening can hear my thoughts. 00:07:41 I don’t even have to speak them out loud, who can like hear my thoughts and will like do or not do or give or not give the things to me, right? Like, I don’t know, sometimes I wanna like ice cream for desert dessert and my parents were like, we don’t have ice cream. Like have a cookie. Like I can have a cookie, but at least my parents for me, like at least there is someone, even if I don’t get what I want, there’s like someone listening. And because I’m a Christian and I’ve accepted Jesus, this person like in general has my back. Even if I like don’t always understand it in the moment. That was like my like v version one of Brian Praise. And then I think like around 16, 70, 18, certainly by the time I was 18 And I went to college as I was like realizing ’cause I was queer and realizing that that wasn’t going away and realizing that I didn’t want it to go away, I sort of like moved into this sort of like, and it coincided with my shift to my understanding of God is for like more agnostic. 00:08:34 Like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, I don’t know like if there like is quote unquote God in quotes. Like, I don’t know, like if there is a God, if God is listening, I don’t know if God is granting or not grant anything. I just sort of like, I don’t know. And so sometimes I like wouldn’t pray at all or sometimes I would pray and just kind of like hope, like very stereotypically like, God, are you there? It’s me. I’d really like this. Or like, I mean my, in my co like 18th or 22, it was probably a lot of like, I think that it’s okay to be gay and so like that’s why I’m like dating or having sex, but like, if it’s not like I am listening, so like please just let me know and like I’ll, I’ll if I need to. 00:09:14 But there was, I definitely spent a few years being like, I think I’m on the right track, but like, if you want me to stop being gay, like give me a sign, I guess. And then I think like you, I moved into this like version three, which was like there’s no one listening, no one’s granting us anything. It’s just about like, if you pray that God will solve poverty, like inspires you to like give away more of your money or feed the people in your neighborhood or organize for better policies. Like it’s like you alone, like you are praying to God ostensibly, but it’s about changing you individually. And I think now I don’t think that there’s like a conscious entity that is like listening to my words, like on a telephone, right? 00:10:04 And I do think a lot of the change is happening within me, but I also kind of like, you think that like there’s some sort of like tapping into something and like, I don’t know, I don’t really think that there’s like vibrations that I’m tapping into. And if you think that there’s like, like there’s vibes like tap into tap into your vibes, right? But like, so I, I don’t know, like if you were saying it’s just sort of like I’m paying more attention and so I like notice things that I might not not have otherwise noticed or I say yes to things that I might not have otherwise said yes to, or I say no to things that I might not have otherwise said, said no to. I don’t know if it’s a, it like when I go in places that fuel prayerful, whether that is like a religious congregation or whether that’s like a community board meeting or a drag show. 00:10:50 Like I’m surrounded by people who share values or worldviews and so like I’m more likely to then be able to be inspired by them or lean on them or be supported by them. But there does, like now I do feel like there’s something that changes within me, but there’s also something really powerful about praying together and I’m putting all that in quotes, right? Like that could be literally like at a church service or if you’re Christian or like in a minion if you’re Jewish, like saying a sort of traditional prayer. But like it could also be like, I don’t know, like sitting around our Josh’s hospital bed as he was dying and like looking through a scrapbook with our best friends and his parents and like reminiscing like and holding his hand and like that felt in some way prayerful or like, I’ve already used this example, but like being at like a drag show or a gay bar or having sex and like, is that worship or prayer or both? 00:11:51 But like that there’s like something about the other people, this of it all that feels important. I know we were talking about this last week also, but there’s like this sort of like communal element to it that feels important that I really feel like only in the past few years have I connected sort of like the importance of community and like prayerfulness in particular. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I keep thinking about, you know, going back to my old views of prayer where it’s like you’re asking for what you want and trusting God will give it to you and then, you know, rationalizing whatever answer you get. 00:12:32 Yeah. Like I, I think about both the comfort of that, right? There is a real sense that you’ve got someone on your side and that It’s powerful and that, you know, miracles will happen. But I also just remember the feelings of like, well why did, why did God give that person the $500 that they need and not my family? Or, you know, why did that person get cured of their cancer? Someone from my family didn’t. And like how that has the theological and emotional power to, to like really destroy people, right? 00:13:15 And a real sense of like, especially when it’s coupled with like, well maybe you didn’t pray hard enough or maybe you didn’t pray with the right attitude, or maybe God is trying to teach you a lesson or maybe you were living in sin and that’s why you didn’t get the things that, that you asked for. And I think that like, this is why it’s so, so, so important for us to like really examine the theologies that we carry with us and the beliefs and the ideas that we carry with us, right? Because like that emotional response to prayer lingered in me, in my body for a hell of a lot longer than like the intellectual belief about that type of prayer. 00:13:58 Yeah. And so like, I think that that’s, it’s, it was so important to like do that work and I’m just like, I’m struck by because I’m, I’m hearing people talking about, about prayer in that kind of way, like every day these days. And I’m, I’m just, I’m struck by how the allure is still there, right? Like the allure of that kind of, especially when in moments when like the world is feeling out of control and my life is feeling a little all over the place. Like there’s, there’s a, there can be an impulse to be like, oh, well if I was just back in that space, everything would be clear and safe again. 00:14:42 And I just have to keep reminding myself like, yes, and it’s so, so bad for you. So like, don’t, don’t do that. But, but I do think like, again, it becomes then an invitation to to also say like, what is it about that that was so attractive? And like where, where are the places in me that either I need to like continue to do work of healing so that I don’t need that and or where are the places in that I can like engage in that kind of like, in something that will meet that need or that emotional space in a way that is healthy and good and that like doesn’t take me down bad, terrible theological places that like do damage to my psyche. 00:15:27 And so, and so I think that like, again, this is a, this is a thing you And I have say all the time, like the work doesn’t end right? Like you don’t eventually arrive at healed and whole and yeah. Like there’s no more work to do. And so like I think that this, like, we, we keep coming back to the things and things keep coming up for us. And so it again, like this is an invitation I think for me to like really reflect on what do I mean when I say prayer? What do I think I’m tapping into? What is the practice that is good and life giving and healthy and does lead toward wholeness? And how can I like really engage in that? 00:16:10 And I think that this is why over the last couple of years, probably more like a decade, like I’ve really loved reading, written, written prayers by other people because there is something of, you know, when you talked about praying together, like whatever kind of air quotes we wanna put around that. But there is something about like, if we’re all using, if a bunch of people are like praying the liturgy, even though we’re not in the same room, we’re like still engaged in that practice together. And like we’re, we’re orienting ourselves, especially if we’re praying prayers of justice or for peace. I do think that that like does something in the world, right? 00:16:51 Like if a bunch of people are orienting themselves toward envisioning a more peaceful world, committing to nonviolence or committing to being more loving toward one another like that is gonna make a, an actual physical difference in the world. Yeah. Whether we’re engaged in that practice physically together or like individually on our own. And I think it’s also an invitation to like expand our notions of whose prayers we’re reading, right? Like book of common prayer is great, but I also think that like, there’s a deep power in reading Col Arthur Riley’s Yeah. 00:17:32 Black liturgy’s prayers or prayers from, I, I have this prayer book that was written by someone that I went to union with who like collects prayers and liturgies from all over the world. And like there’s something about reading prayers from like a poor community of people who fish for their, their livelihoods, right? Like from another country that me praying that prayer, even though I have a very different experience, like it orients me in a different way. And I think that there’s a real power in that. And like, this is a, this is a time when I wanna like tap into that more deeply. 00:18:13 Yeah. I keep, I keep thinking about what you said a little while ago about sort of like the emotional response to prayer, right? And like you are intellectually reoriented before maybe you like totally emotionally reoriented and, and so like, you like intellectually didn’t believe that God was like giving that person $500 instead of you while you’re still like, can’t make rent this month. But like emotionally it felt like, oh, did I like do something wrong? And so I just like, I just wanna like go, I don’t know like go back and underline that. ’cause I’m, I bet you a lot of people can resonate with that. Yeah. And then, because I definitely went through that experience and for me there’s also like a second phase of like emotionalness where like, like when, when, when Josh was dying, like, which it’s, it’s still kind of fresh ’cause it was like f four, four years ago, like a month ago, two months ago, I both didn’t intellectually believe that God was curing some people with cancer and not his. 00:19:11 And I also like emotionally did not feel that either, like he didn’t do anything wrong. And so, but like in the like two years before he died when it was like very clear that it was terminal and in the, like the six months after maybe like I was still, I had would have like an emotional reaction when people would talk about either before he died, like I’m praying for him, I’m praying for a miracle, like to hold out hope, like never give up. Like God can heal. I’d be like, you motherfucker, that’s not how it works. Because like body is withering away in real time. He has like three tubes coming up and it’s fucking terrible. Like how dare you? And then afterwards, like, don’t, you know, like, or when people would like, oh, like I prayed and like God cured my, my mom or me or my uncle. 00:20:00 And I’d be like, that is fucking terrible theology. Like no, God didn’t like, I’d be like righteously angry. Like no God didn’t like, do you know what that says about like everyone in general and also particularly Josh, like, and now that it’s been four years, I think I can hear people say that and not get so emotionally activated, but I just like wanna name that like, even if you don’t believe in any five of you being that God is doing it, like you can still be sort of like trigger triggered, like activated about other people’s sort of like stuff around theology in general on prayer in particular. And I felt like I was like, I probably text you every single time someone said something like that to me. 00:20:40 And I think like that was, that was like part of it, right? Was to like recognize sometimes I would like be a little bit short with people if they said it to me either in person or in real life. But I mostly when I try to like be like, you don’t mean it like that way. Like you don’t have any, anybody, these are the best tools that you have. Like I know that’s not how it works. Like that can be good enough. And I would just sort of be like, okay and move on and like send you a three paragraph text. But so like how, like, do you have places people who in your life who both are like on board with you emotionally, that you can be your whole vulnerable self with that you can like vent to your trust friends, so you’re not like taking it on a stranger. 00:21:21 And you are also, I’m still stuck in this emotions and you were talking about like, it does sometimes feel like now that you’re around these people who are imagining porn, this like, god, like that does feel lovely. Like what if there was someone looking out for me? Like I think that we don’t have to feel bad if we think that sometimes, right? Like we don’t have to beat ourselves up for that. There’s like nothing wrong with it. It’s, it’s very human that like in a hard world to want someone even bigger and even more loving and even more powerful to have our back. And so like wouldn’t it be like, I don’t know, like wouldn’t it be nice like I think we can say like, wouldn’t it be nice if I could pray to God and like I just like really knew that God would like make my rent payment happen. 00:22:05 Like maybe it will, but like maybe it won’t. Like, but I wish I had that certainty or, and I’m thinking also about just sort of like beyond prayer, like, like afterlife. Like I really don’t, I don’t think that I’m gonna ever get to like see Josh and talk to Josh again. Like, and sometimes it’s like nice to like, whether I say it to myself or to my journal or to my partner or to other friends who knew him, like, man, like fuck, like I wish he was here. Or like, I wish he was looking down. Like I don’t, I intellectually don’t think that he was looking down on me, but like, I wish he was, or like I was just listening to the podcast episode so that we recorded like a few weeks after he died. It was right around this time of year actually the, the, the lectionary text was on the like post-resurrection exper appearances I think. 00:22:48 Or we just, I just brought that up because I was like sitting in his old apartment and feeling like, oh, like he feels like he’s like here still. And like I know that he’s like, not here, but like to, it’s, it’s like, it’s okay to use metaphor or or poetic language or to like, imagine if like I, you know, I remember my, before he died, my therapist would be like, you know, maybe you just like now when he couldn’t travel anymore, like you could just like have an afternoon like talking about like, oh, like what if he would like went back. It was also the pandemic. Like what if feel like we went back to fire island. Like wouldn’t it be lovely to like go to the beach or go cruising for guys or what place would we want to see? Or like, you know, that trip that we never got to take to France, like what would we eat? And at this point he couldn’t eat. He had like got obvious nutrition intravenously. So it was like, oh yeah, like remember that like pot roast you made three years ago. 00:23:31 Like, like it is okay to sort of like indulge our emotions and tell stories and use poetic language and metaphor and imagine and wish and dream. Like there’s like something really beautiful and human about that. Even if you as you intellectually are like, yeah, like he, like he’s gone. And also like I sometimes I still talk to him like, and that’s like a yes. And, And I, it also, as you were talking about like the wouldn’t it be nice if, if God like if if someone was looking out for me, I think that too is like an invitation to me to think about like, how do we be that for each other? Yeah. Right. 00:24:11 That there is this sense of like, yeah, maybe, maybe God isn’t gonna miraculously drop 500 bucks for my rent in my lap, but like maybe a bunch of my friends will, or like, maybe I can do that for someone else. And that like, I don’t know that that doesn’t get to your point about grief and loss and that Yeah. But, but there is, I don’t know, even in that it’s a sense of like, when you and your friends get together and you talk about what you remember and what you experienced with Josh, like that is a, a way of calling him back and recalling him and keeping his, keeping him alive in, in the midst of your community. 00:24:53 And I know that you’ve talked a lot about how much he taught you all and how you continue to live out those values together. Yeah. And that, that too is like a way of, of carrying that forward. And so I think that there, there is like the thing that feels so appealing about that prayer of like, it a miracle is just gonna happen, but it, it always required people, right? Yeah. So I think that the, the like beauty of, I don’t know, maybe the beauty of progressive theology or the honesty of progressive theology is to say, well, it’s always been us, right? Yeah. It’s always been up to us to like make that happen and to show up and to be be the justice, be the community, be the whatever in the world. 00:25:42 And like, I don’t know, we can, we can still do that. Even, even when things are the way they are now. Shay that is, I, I’m such a fan boy, I can’t believe I’ve known you for so long. Like, that was so it’s al like if, yeah, ’cause I like it was never in my mind, it was never a man in the sky intervening, which then means like, it’s always been us, which is actually like, God, I could cry. That’s like really fucking beautiful and like, I, it just reminds me of like last week, right? Also we were talking about like community and community care and effort and like, I feel just like infinitely lucky that I, like I do feel held by these like five guys that like we went through hell with, right? 00:26:28 And I’m aware that like not everyone has that and like doesn’t feel as held by their like this like beautiful queer chosen family that I have. And also I’m aware that like 15 years ago I didn’t, I didn’t know Josh 15 years ago. Like, it, like, it is not something that I’ve always had. It’s something that like partly I lucked into partly we all put a lot of effort in. Like, I, like I tell a story in my book, love Beyond Monogamy. Like I absolutely, like Peter met Josh, we like first met through a, like a dating and hookup app. Like I would’ve vetoed him if I had that power and like got him outta my life because I was like jealous and uncomfortable and like, but I didn’t. And like we grew up And I became one of my best friends, right? That like, it was not without trial and error and turmoil and heartbreak and you know, hurt feelings along the way. 00:27:15 Like, and also like a decade later, like we emerged or something really beautiful and like it took, it took work and like I had many other iterations of friend groups over the years, right? Like that I’m still friends with many of those people just like in different ways. And so like, if you’re like, God, I like I that’s like well and good Brian, you’re not this beautiful queer family in New York. Like, like that. Like it might mean taking some actions to go either meet some people or like deepen the connections that you already have. I just shared a Instagram post today from a black woman educator who was talking about like communal care and friendship and it was like, you have to stop splitting your lunches on Venmo down to the penny. 00:28:01 Like that makes your relationship transactional. You have to like, you don’t Venmo your friend to dog your cat, like you dog sit their cat there, there a dog one weekend, like the house pick up your groceries the next weekend. Like you need to sort of like, there are some things, especially now with technology and social media and sort of like on demand everything. Like, it is really easy to sort of like isolate and we really have to like push against the sort of commodification of every single thing. And that means like sometimes like I buy a this round of drinks and you buy the second round or you buy the round next week or like you crash on my couch, like crouch on your couch. 00:28:41 Like I pick you up from the airport, you pick me up from the airport, I ask you how you’re feeling. It’s vulnerable, it feels scary. Like I bet you were to my house for dinner. Like, I mean, we could, that could be a whole series or a whole like immersive something or other, but there like, it does feel like you, it takes action and it’s never, it’s like never too late to start my mom not to get too personal and share her shit. She’ll be, would be so upset. But like my mom has made some like really beautiful friendships just over the past like five years that are like super, super meaningful to her and she’s pushing 70 now. So like, it’s never like, there’s always time to, to start forming the community around you. 00:29:22 Friends. Don’t forget that coming up in the first week of June, we’re doing the Queerness Everyday Challenge. It is a six day challenge where we encourage you to do something to infuse and integrate your queerness and your spirituality every single day. And you can do it five minutes a day or less and have a great community of people that come around and come together to, to do this challenge. It’s only $7. So we would love to have you as part of Sanctuary Collective to Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge. You can find out more by gonna Queer Theology com slash challenge and you can also sign up there, hope to see you inside of Sanctuary Collective. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 00:30:05 To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Queering Prayer appeared first on Queer Theology.

Besides just being BUSY at the moment, we’re both feeling the anxiety of the daily current news. And it is exhausting, y’all. So, yes, while we do need a good nap, we also get into the themes of rest, self-care, and community engagement amidst the challenges of modern life in this episode. There is a tension between the need for personal rest and the demands of activism, and as with most things in life, it is important to find balance. We also talk about the value of micro rituals in daily life, even if they are much more micro than you would like them to be. We’re holding another round of the Queerness Every Day Challenge and it’s a great opportunity for folks to participate in small, meaningful practices that connect queerness and spirituality, especially amidst the busyness!   Takeaways Both hosts express a shared feeling of being emotionally and spiritually drained. The conversation highlights the importance of self-care amidst life’s demands. There is a tension between the need to rest and the need to engage in activism. Marginalized individuals often have less ability to rest due to survival pressures. Quality engagement with community can be more rejuvenating than passive consumption. Micro rituals can help maintain connection to spirituality and self-care. The busier one is, the more they need to engage in self-care practices. Finding a minimum viable ritual can help maintain spiritual practices during busy times. Community connections are vital for emotional support and rejuvenation. The Queerness Every Day Challenge encourages small, meaningful daily practices.   Chapters (07:18) Balancing Self-Care and Activism (13:28) Quality Engagement vs. Passive Consumption (19:27) Micro Rituals for Daily Life (22:27) The Queerness Every Day Challenge     Resources:. Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tune In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back, Shannon. And I just, before we hit record right now, or I asked Shannon, what do you wanna talk about on the podcast today? And I wish we were already recording so I could have a screenshot of the face he made and he said, napping. 00:00:50 And, you know, God, that hit me. So that was, felt just like, felt so real And I was like, yeah, let’s talk about that. Like, and so we’re not gonna talk only about napping, but I think, and, and let us know if this resonates with you, that like, we’re both kind of like literally tired a lot of the time, emotionally tired, sometimes feeling like spiritually drained and despondent. I mean, I think like for all the obvious reasons that everyone is feeling. And then also we, we probably each have our own sort of like, particular versions of that in our own lives. You know, this is something that happens at all points throughout history and throughout our lives. And also like at this particular moment, it feels maybe it’s more acute for many of us. 00:01:34 And also, right, like I still gotta pay the bills And I still have like family and friends that I care about and who care about me. And I still want to like experience joy and connection and community. And I still wanna, like, I don’t wanna give up and just crawl into a hole. I want to continue to fight to make the world a better place. And so like, we wanna explore this sort of like tension between the very real need to sometimes take naps and to take care of ourselves, and also the importance of taking care of each other. And maybe how those two, like you actually can’t separate as much as maybe people want you to think you can separate and, and just sort of like, like how are we doing this in this moment? 00:02:16 We don’t have an outline. This is like very unscripted off the cuff. I was working on my other job like until like 9:00 PM last night. So we’re like, this is like, you’re like, you’re Shay’s been driving a bunch for work. Like you’re getting, this is real. So Shay like you said, I want talk about, or I don’t, if you see this, wanna talk about, I think you said what I wanna do is nap. Yes, yes. So like what’s, like, what’s going on for you? Yeah, yeah. It’s just been a really, really busy season. You know, as we’re recording this, we’re recording this a little bit ahead of, of when it’s gonna go out, but like, I just launched a book a couple of weeks ago. I started a new job about a month ago. 00:02:55 I’m like you said, I’ve been driving a ton. The, the work that I’m doing has me in, in a bunch of different places. A, a play that I have been working on for two years, like just had its premiere, right? So there’s just been a ton going on and we were both kind of joking, you know, I think there’s that meme that goes around that’s like adulthood is just saying things are gonna calm down after next week over and over again until you die. Yep. And that’s, I feel like the two of us have both been in that space of, like, I was just telling my wife today, I was like, yeah, now this play is open. Like the the last thing I have to do is like rewrite the Queer Theology book. And we were kind of like laughing and then I can take a break and it’s just like, you know, it’s just, It’s just a small little thing of rewriting a whole 65,000 a book, Not 60,000 pages, Lord, Sorry, 60,000 words. 00:03:49 Yes. Be like, what publishing. But I think that, you know, I, I think, I think that this feeling that both of us are laughing about is like not uncommon with a lot of people. And I think that like, in addition to all of the just logistical and whatever things, it’s also like we are living in a time of increasing whatever this is. And there’s a lot of, you know, anxiety and fear and uncertainty and just a lot of unknowns. And like that also takes a toll on your mental and emotional and spiritual health. And so like, I’m just, I’m carrying all of that. 00:04:31 Yeah. And I think, I know that there’s been a lot of conversation online about like, rest over the past. I don’t know, it, it feels like over the past couple of years there’s been kind of this rest discourse, some from the like Nat Ministry folks, but like that it’s, it’s a lot broader, more broad than, than just that. And I’ve, I’ve really struggled with that because I think that there is a tension between, yes, we have to take care of ourselves, we have to like actually sleep and eat and drink water and all of those things. And also like, the more marginalized you are, I think the less ability you have to rest. 00:05:14 Like, there’s just always something to do. And like often that’s something to do feels very tied to survival, right? It’s not just like, I don’t have the luxury to just like check out because people are trying to legislate trans people out of existence. Right? Like, I don’t have the luxury to just whatever. And It’s like not choosing between like, I’m only gonna go go to one brunch this weekend instead of two brunches this weekend. Exactly. Right. Exactly. And like, and sometimes it feels like, I dunno, this is maybe my bias showing, I mean, sometimes it feels like some of the folks using the rest idea, especially online, are people who are like white, white, able bodied, cis and like not actually doing anything anyway. 00:06:01 And so it like, so it’s like whatcha resting from Yeah. Like, because you’re like not out in the streets and you’re not defending trans people and you’re not like fighting for existence. And so all I’m saying, and you work Like, and you work at Google, like Yeah. Like, you’re, you’re, you’re fine. Yeah. Maybe, maybe what you need to do is like, rest less and yeah, work more so that the rest of us can rest Anyway. So I, so I, I’ve struggled with that tension, but I do think that there is a, there’s something here for marginalized folks at figuring out, like, what is that balance? Like how do we care for ourselves and invest in our communities and like center joy and celebration in the midst of also not checking out of the work and continuing to show up for justice causes. 00:06:54 And I don’t, I don’t clearly with how tired I’m today, like I have not achieved that balance. But I do think that it’s like, that’s an important thing to be thinking through and and wrestling through for all of us, especially in this moment. So those are, yeah, those are some of my initial thoughts. Yeah. Something that you said sparked in me, this totally unrelated idea that I use in my relationship coaching practice, but it, it feels like an apt analogy. And I, I wanna share that and then like, then I’ll share a little bit about my own shit. But like oftentimes, especially in long-term relationships where the partners live together, what will happen is they, because they live together and they’ve been together for a while, they’ll end up spending like most of their time together. 00:07:37 And so every day they like come home from work or they work all day at home anyways. ’cause they’re, they’re remote working and so they’ll sort of like be at home and like, maybe they’ll cook dinner and maybe they’ll order dinner in and they’ll like watch a TV show or like not, or sort of like be on their phones. And so they’re like spending a lot of like physical time together, but it’s like very like the same old, same old every single day and kind of monotonous and, or they’re like physically next to each other on the couch, but they’re scrolling on Instagram if they’re open or polyamorous, like they’re scrolling on Grindr or Tinder or they’re like Snapchatting with like strangers, right? Like, and so you’re like together, but you’re like not having quality reconnection time, nor are you actually having quality, like meeting new people time or stimulating your brain through hobbies or like resting. 00:08:31 And so this sort of like seemingly paradoxical coaching that I often give folks is like, you probably need to spend like more both like more time together and less time together, like less physical time together. Even if that’s just sort of like go into separate rooms and like read a book over there and like, you play your favorite video game over here, but like, don’t just like sit on the couch kind of doing nothing together. That is nice sometimes, but like, that shouldn’t be your every day. And, and then spend more time like, like cooking in the elaborate meal rather than just like reheating pizza or like making a picnic in the park or going for a walk around the block or like putting your phones away and sitting on the couch and like holding hands or using one of those like intimacy card decks by Best Self co like asking each other a few like sort of deep questions, like to actually get some quality connection. 00:09:16 And so I think that there’s a, an analogy here where sort of like, when I feel the least the when I sometimes, like when I feel the most in need of rest is like when I’m like not doing anything where it’s like I’ve like caught myself in a doom scroll and I’ve been like reading the news and reading all these, watching all these like reels about how terrible things are and wars and bombings and prisons and like feelings sort of like helpless and hopeless and disconnected and like, my eyes literally hurt, but I am not actually napping. And so like, like I think that, and I’m saying this just as much to myself as I am to you or anyone else is like, I probably need like both more naps and also more picnics and also more protests. 00:10:02 And also let’s spin another p like, and also like more pottery, right? Like, like I think that like what I, what like I think I like need to unhook from is this sort of like mediocre, there’s a Bible verse about this also, like, right, like, don’t be there, don’t be be be hot or cold. Don’t be lukewarm God lukewarm. Or like, I think that this like, sort of like lukewarm, I feel like I don’t have enough energy to go to the park, but I like, don’t wanna take a nap ’cause it feels like there’s too much to do. So then I kind of do like neither. And so I think like the, like how can I both rest and then also like rejuvenate and like those like might be two different things and Instagram reels and YouTube videos as much as I want them to be rejuvenating or not actually rejuvenating, right? 00:10:51 It’s like a talk with friends of like fresh sour of like watching the sunset, like whatever it might be. Like going to like a community meeting and meeting my neighbors, like getting outside of my house. I always, I hate sometimes leaving my house. And also 95% of the time if I’m leaving my house as long as I’m home by 8:45 PM like I I’m glad that I, I’m glad that I left the house. So there’s like something there about this sort of like, yes ending, it’s like not either or. And like the times that I feel like most in need of support, like going, whether it’s to a book club or services or just like meeting up with friends and offering a listening ear, like giving support also sometimes then allows me to get support and asking for what you need. 00:11:43 And like, like now more than ever, community connections just like feel super important and that does take like work, but it’s like a different type of work than like your day job work. You know what I mean? Yeah, that’s that’s what I was gonna say. Like I, it feels to me that sometimes the things that take energy, like showing up at a protest or a community meeting or, or even like engaging with friends while while those do take energy, it takes, it’s a different, it’s a more engaged energy, right? And the recovery from that is different. It feels a lot different than like doom scrolling or tweeting or getting in involved in like in raging conversations online. 00:12:30 Yeah. I in a way that like, that too can sometimes feel like you’re doing something like quote unquote doing something. Like you’re staying informed, you’re bringing a Awareness stand, speaking your voice. Yes. Yeah. Like all of those things. But like those take a different type of toll And I think that like lead I, I’ll, I’ll speak for myself, like often lead me to a feeling of, I don’t know, like blah is the best Blah god word For it. Right. I’m Just like, a lot of the time that’s like, Yeah. Where it’s just like I, I I get like, I guess I’m engaged, I guess what, but it doesn’t, like I’m not rejuvenated and I’m also like not spent in a way that feels right. 00:13:14 There is a way in which like when I’ve done a really good thing, I had a hard conversation with someone Yeah. That I do feel spent, but it it’s like a good kind of spent Yeah. That like, like after a really good workout, right? Like you, your body feels spent, but it also feels Yeah. Strong and engaged and you feel in it. And I think that like, that feels like an important distinction for me too. Yeah. You know, I, so I used to, there was a while a few years ago where I was like praying every day. I mean, and also like praying, I am not a talk to God prayer. I’m like a read a liturgy prayer. So I, but like, so it wass like the same liturgy every day or like for a while with poems. 00:13:54 Like, so when I say pray, like I really mean like spending like some amount of minutes in sort of structured mindfulness. And I was like doing like every day And I was like, really great. And I like have been doing it for a while and like, like a few weeks ago I like, I was like, oh, like maybe I should like, like dab in this morning. And I like did it And I was like, oh, that felt great. Like I wish I did this more. And then like I did it then like the next day maybe, And I was like, oh, this is awesome. I’m gonna keep doing this. And then like the third day I didn’t do it. Like, And like it does, like, you do have to sort of like keep your foot on the pedal a little bit and like, I don’t know, I like, I, that is something that speaks to me like reading, whether it’s like liturgical prayers or poetry, but like, it could be journaling or knitting or crafting or like hosting weekly meals with your roommates or your chosen family or just like your friends. 00:14:44 Like I know that we’re like a little broken record here, but like, what are the like practices that like support and sustain you and like you the like weird paradox, right? Is that like you do have to like exert some amount of effort on it. It’s just that like, kinda like you were saying like a workout, but it’s like a workout for your heart, like your, your, your soul that like, you exert a little bit of effort for your soul and then like the, the payoff is so much more than the effort. Like, we invited a few people over for dinner on a Friday night a few weeks ago, and it was like, oh, there was just five of us and like my husband made a crockpot chicken, like pulled chicken thing like that we put on store-bought rolls and it was like just, it was very simple and pretty cheap and like, but so like, so lovely, right? 00:15:41 And I was like, oh, I wanna do more of this. And like, then we had friends over for drinks before a bunch of ’em went over to out to their Kylie Mano concert. Like that night I didn’t, I stayed in, but like some of them went to that And I was like, oh, we should like, we should like move this thing like every Friday. Of course. Like I haven’t, so like for as much as I, as much as we like talk about rituals, we have like a whole workshop inside of spi, study hall, sanctuary collective about rituals and the power of them. Like even I sometimes need to sort of like go back to those checklists and worksheets and sort of like recommit to them. And so like, I think like, I guess I didn’t start out this conversation thinking that I was gonna like end here, but I was like, oh, like what are the, and whether it’s like spiritual rituals are just sort of like communal care. 00:16:26 Like what are the things that actually make me feel cared for, protected, safe, seen, supported part of something bigger and like how might I put in a little bit of effort to get those and then also like maybe say no to some stuff that like isn’t gonna actually fill me up and like go to bed early. Like, I’m so glad I didn’t go to the sky Le Monroe concert. Like if you feel like I went to bed like on a Friday night at like 9:00 PM it was fucking amazing, right? So like sometimes it’s saying like, that does sound like fun, but like, let’s do an afternoon thing this weekend instead of getting together at 9:30 PM for drinks. You know, like, and or maybe you’re a night owl at 9:30 PM works great for you and an afternoon thing wouldn’t be good for you. 00:17:08 But like figuring out like what, like how can you sometimes do rest but also not like resting without retreating I think is, I guess what I’m figuring out. And that also makes me think of like, I, I think often when I’m as stressed and as busy as I currently am, it can feel like, what do you mean you want me to have rituals on top of this? Like I don’t even have time to Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sleep I like and now I’ve gotta do this new thing. And one of the things that I’ve been working on and not always succeeding with but working on over the past couple of years is like to use a kind of businessy term is like what’s my minimum viable ritual, right? 00:17:50 Where it’s like in an ideal day, right, I would love to sit down before I go to work and write three pages longhand in my journal and while having a cup of coffee and then light a candle and read some prayers and read a poem and meditate and do like all of these different things. And it’s like, okay, that’s the perfect, so like what is, what is the like thing that I can keep in practice? And so it’s like, great, I can write three sentences in my journal and it might be at the end of the day, not in the morning, I can do five minutes of meditation instead of 10. I can read a super short poem or nothing. 00:18:32 Right? Like yeah. That there are ways for me to stay engaged in these practices even if it’s not ideal. And, but it, that is still like keeping me engaged in that, in that practice so that when I do have more time, you know, then I can do the full thing. There was also some meditation teacher that, that was, had this thing of like, anyone who said, I’m too busy to meditate. He’s like, you should meditate for 20 minutes a day and if you’re too busy to meditate for 20 minutes a day, you should meditate for two hours a day. Right? It was this sense of like, the busier you’re, the more that you actually need the thing. And I, I’m sure that that teacher was maybe being facetious, but Yeah. 00:19:14 But I think that there is something there of like, it’s in the times when we’re most stressed and the, and when we feel most, like I do not have time to go out with my friends. I do not have time to engage in spiritual practices. I do not have time to do X, y and Z. Yeah. But those are the times when we most desperately need to figure out how to do something, something to connect something to practice something to whatever. Yeah. And I don’t know if this is like an a DHD hyper fixation thing or if this is just like an everyone thing, but like, I often find myself like wanting to, like when I have like an idea of like wanting to like really go big, I wanna like watch 12 different YouTube videos about it. 00:19:55 I wanna like read some articles about it. I want some checklist. I wanna like make a spreadsheet or a plan or start a new project in my like to do app and like we’re like, go big, right? And it’s like, yeah, or, or like, could I just like do one thing? Like could I just like text it, right? Like I don’t actually have to have a whole system for like how I’m gonna send every single person I know a birthday card in an anniversary card And I just thinking of you card all year long, I could just send like one card to the next person whose birthday is right. Or like for my mornings like to sort of like pray the morning like prayer service and, and Judaism it like takes like about 15 minutes if you’re like by yourself and kind of going quickly. But like, if I like wanna get like my prayer show out, it’s like, it’s like at least 18 to 20 minute like endeavor, right? 00:20:36 Like, And I have to like find my per on then fold it back up afterwards. So I’m like, that’s like my ideal. But like, okay. But so I don’t, I don’t either, like I don’t have time for that or I’m just like, do all energy And I don’t feel like that, that feels like overwhelming wherever I am, like sitting or laying down. Can I just like use the timer on my watch for five minutes and just sort of like count my breath and then maybe say thema, which is like one sentence, two sentences before or after that and like call that a day. Which, which like leads me, I guess like, which like leads me into this thing that we have coming up The Queerness Every Day Challenge. One of the things that we talk about is like finding affirmations or like literally like micro rituals that you can sort of like remind yourself of ways in which your queerness and your faith are like already intertwined. 00:21:29 And like starting with something like super, super small as like a really powerful reminder of the, like that you’re good, that you’re holy, that you’re deserving of love and rest. That you’re like, your body is good. Like whatever is like fuels important for you. Like whatever, like the word is that you need to hear. Like how can you find these like tiny little practices that you can sort of like smush into your life that don’t feel like they’re add-ons that you can do laying down, that you can do on the bus, that you can do before bed that you can like do before tired, but you don’t have to do anything. All you have to do is like open your eyes and like look at the thing you already put out like three weeks ago. 00:22:09 Right. So that’s coming up soon. I Shay you wanna share a little bit more about this? Yeah. You know, one of the things that I love about The Queerness Every Day Challenge this is will be our what our third time doing it fourth. So yeah, third time. Is that like, it, it’s a good reminder to me about how about returning to the same practices? Like, and we, we switch it up a little bit each year, but, but the, the functional thing is kind of the same. So like, how do we do these small things that can infuse queerness and spirituality and the intersections between them into our daily lives in like five minutes a day or less? And what I love about this is like, it’s a reminder to me that a revisiting and returning to the same practices reveal something deeper every time to me. 00:23:00 And also like, because I have changed in the last year, even though I’m doing the same thing, like I’m gonna have a different experience of it because I’m different. And it’s a reminder that like even small things can, when when they add up, can make a really big difference in that. Like re-engaging in this work, reminding myself of these intersections and why they matter to me, like is deeply, deeply meaningful. And so whether you’ve done it with us in the past or whether you’re like brand new to it, really encourage you to, to join this queerness everyday challenge. It’s super fun. We have a community space collective, something, something small that you can do. 00:23:47 There’s some advanced player moves if you’ve done it before or you wanna take it even deeper. And we do it together every day for a week and, and come together and form community around that. And it’s, it’s really awesome. It’s a, it was a really special time every year and so we hope you’ll will join us for that. Yeah, and it’s the first week of June, so it’s a great way to kick off your pride month. It runs Sunday, June 1st to Friday, June 6th. It’s just $7 and you can do it from anywhere in the world. We have folks in the US and Canada and South Africa, and Denmark Australia, Germany, South Korea, like really, really from all over. And so we would love to have you be a part of that. 00:24:29 You can go to Queer Theology dot com slash challenge to learn more and sign Up. Yeah, we’d love to have you. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post We Need a Nap appeared first on Queer Theology.

We tackle a series of questions from listeners on this week’s episode! The questions focus on the intersection of faith, identity, and community for LGBTQ+ individuals. We discuss the challenges faced by transgender individuals in church settings, the misconceptions surrounding sin and sexuality, the experiences of agnostics in religious spaces, and the nuanced understanding of the Holy Spirit in the lives of queer individuals. We also get into grief, demons and the importance of personal agency and community in navigating these topics.   Takeaways No, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell. Conservative views often equate same-gender relationships with addiction. It’s important to find an affirming community. God didn’t make a mistake in creating trans individuals. We co-create our identities with God. Agnostics are welcome in many progressive churches. Defining God can vary greatly among individuals. Community and rituals can be meaningful without belief in God. The Holy Spirit’s role is often misunderstood in evangelicalism. The working of the spirit is a mystery, not a certainty. Activism can inspire students to take action and create change. Transcendence can be felt in everyday experiences, such as dance and community. The concept of demons and possession is often tied to mental health and societal issues. Rituals can provide comfort and connection in times of grief. Praying for the departed can be a personal and meaningful practice. Understanding the historical context of spiritual beliefs is crucial. Personal agency should not be undermined by the concept of demonic influence. Grief is a non-linear process that requires compassion and understanding. Community support is vital in navigating spiritual and emotional challenges. Rituals can help honor the memory of loved ones and facilitate healing.   Chapters (1:04) Agnostics and Their Place in Church (8:21) Navigating Church as a Transgender Individual (15:57) The Role of the Holy Spirit in LGBTQ+ Lives (26:05) Exploring the Concept of Demons and Possession (31:28) Praying for the Departed: Grief and Rituals   Resources: What’s the Deal with the Pigs? Want to submit a question? Go to queertheology.com/listen to submit your own.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we’ve got a q and a episode. You all have been sending in questions through our Google Voice number, and we’re super excited to tackle some of them today. We’ve got some really great and interesting questions, and we’re just gonna take ’em one by one. And if you would like to submit your question for a future episode of the podcast, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast and there will be instructions on that page with how to submit your question. (1m 4s): Our first question is an anonymous one from Tumblr. For anyone who is still on Tumblr, you can submit questions to us there. We, I think Tumblr is still in existence as of the recording of this episode. So this question is, can a agnostics go to church? I wrote a whole novel of a question with backstory and everything, but deleted it because that’s the crux of my question. I realized I was queer after I became agnostic. So that combo doesn’t hold much angst for me luckily. But every now and then I circle back around to religion and the thing that always stops me from engaging completely is that I am agnostic. And I don’t think that’s going to change at this point. I’ve done a lot of soul searching and a lot of research, and it doesn’t matter which religion, I just can’t believe things I don’t believe. (1m 48s): That wasn’t very eloquent, but I hope you know what I mean. But something’s obviously calling me back over and over. So yeah. Can agnostics go to church? I think that’s actually quite elegant, actually. Yes. I love this question. Yeah, yeah. Yes, definitely. I would say that in, in a, in many, most like progressive liberal mainline churches, the pastors and priests there were like, absolutely love for agnostics to come. It’s not just me saying this. I have talked to many Agnos and many pastors and priests at, at churches that are like, yeah, sure, come on. There’s like lots of reasons to come to church. (2m 28s): Like if you believe in the mission of Jesus, the work that we’re doing here at the community that we’re forming, the rituals speak to you. Like, come on in. You don’t Have to. And and honestly, a lot of those pastors and priests might also be agnostics. Yep. So that’s just know that, Yes. I would also, also also gonna say like a lot of pastors and priests are potentially agnostic, And I think this really gets down to like, how do you define God? And so like if God is a man in the sky that like used magic spells and conjured up miracles to create, to form the world in his hand and intervenes in the affairs of the world, then like many, many, many Christians, Jews, pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, like don’t believe in that God. (3m 21s): But many people still say that they believe in God. But it’s something else. I, for probably the entire time that we’ve done Queer Theology, I’ve been like, I don’t know if I believe in God. And so for a while there was like, can I still call myself a Christian? And, and Shannon, you’ve always been like, yeah, man, like you, like believe in the ministry of Jesus and like you’re down for a Christian community. And so like, come on. I’m like, good enough for me. Obviously at some point I converted to Judaism And I think like, actually like, like when I was still a Christian, it kind of felt important to be like, well, I don’t believe in the conservative Christian version of God, but there’s like a different version of God that I do believe in. (4m 5s): And it’s definitely not anything supernatural, but it’s like, I don’t know, when you like hold a baby in your arms and it cries like it’s just sound waves reverberating through the air and then into your eardrum. Like, and also that it’s like something more, right? When you like have a really like special meal with your like queer chosen family, there’s like something sort of like sizzling in the air. There. There are things that we have been told are impossible, and then a group of people who are willing to sacrifice everything for it come together believing in the impossible. And then somehow the what what seems to be impossible becomes impossible, right? (4m 49s): And so like that sort of like whatever that is, I like people call that, some people call that God. And so like, I think like you get to define what God is and you can still be agnostic or even an atheist and believe in the power of community or unpacking and diving into religion or seeing what you can learn or the rituals or what whatever it might be for you. And like you don’t, you don’t have to believe in God to do that. And also a lot of the people who say they believe in God, like there’s so many different definitions of God that is important to ask. Like, well, what does that, what does God mean to you? Because you might be closer in belief to a lot of the people at these churches than you realize. (5m 33s): Yeah. I, I echo all of that. I, I think that too, like just also, you know, kind of being clear with folks about who you are, which doesn’t mean you need to like walk in announcing you and agnostic, right. And I believe that. Yeah. But like, you know, being clear about with folks there about like what is it that you are invested in and, and how you want to engage and why you’re, why you’re there. And I think I would also add that finding the right community is gonna be really important too, because like if you’re in a community that is really, really big on proselytization, like you are just gonna be miserable, right? (6m 15s): Yeah. And they’re gonna be, yeah, they’re gonna see you as a project and they’re gonna try and save you. So like, you’re gonna wanna be in a, in a congregation that like allows for a diversity of belief and that is about the practice of creating community. So I just encourage you to, to kind of look for that as you’re joining a place or, or even attending, because that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna make a difference between whether you have a good experience or a bad experience. But I, I think that there’s something in your question too about like, I’m feeling drawn to this. Just listen to that, right? Like, and, and again, like whatever that thing is that’s drawing you, whether that is community, whether it’s ritual, whether it’s justice, whether it’s whatever, there’s something there. (7m 4s): And so listening to that and finding out the places that you can live that out are, are gonna be important. And you might find that it’s actually not a church that you’re looking for, that you are looking for, I don’t know, a queer game night or a food not bombs community, right? But, but you might find that out by spending some time in churches and figuring out where to plug in and and how to connect with people. Yeah. And I would just offer at most churches the pastor is, would be like down for, maybe, I shouldn’t say most, but at many churches, probably most the pastor or a pastor at the church would be like down for having, setting up a meeting at some point, like for 30 minutes or a coffee or something. (7m 48s): So like if that doesn’t intimidate you, if that would feel good, like just to sort of like talk it out and be like sort of, here’s where I am, this is what I’m looking for. Like if it’s a smaller church, they’re probably like hungry for new members and so they would be like, excited to have you. And if they’re a bigger church, there’s a good chance that they have like multiple pastors or staff to like, do just this. And so like at any size church, you’ll probably be able to find someone to like talk to about this, to sort of get a sense of like what do they feel about your agnosticism. So our next question is from Darby. I am a transgender male who went back to church after my wife’s sister died back last March. (8m 28s): I believe in God and heaven and felt really good going to church until the beginning of this month when one of the pastors stated We need to help and save our family members and friends, those who are addicted to alcohol, pornography, and same sex relationships. It really made me uncomfortable. I didn’t even listen to the rest of the service and haven’t been back to church but want to go. I feel people judging who I am is definitely a sin to, and why can people be ugly toward us when all we do is love for love? Is being gay or trans a sin? Will I not go to heaven for being me? When people say God made you in his image and didn’t make a mistake making me, it really confuses me and he response to help me. I would appreciate it. Absolutely. Darby, we feel you. (9m 8s): Yeah. This is a hard one, right? Like it’s, it’s so hard when you’re in a space where you’re hearing aff affirming messages. So first of all, no, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell. So that’s, you can just take that off the plate. Yep, yep, yep. Right off the bat. And, and you know, I think that anytime someone is talking about being addicted to pornography, I always, that always raises red flags for me. I I really think that conservative folks are like obsessed with this idea of being addicted to everything and like clarifying very natural and normal sexual expression as addiction. (9m 52s): And so like that, that in your question raises red flags to me for sure. And of course like equating same gender relationships with other addictions is also like this person is, has some bad theology and would really encourage you to like seek out a, a new church. Yeah. There’s, there’s multiple questions sort of all wrapped up in this question, right? There’s this one question of I wanna go to church, but this church like says that it’s a sin to be gay and trans. Like, so I have been back, but I want to go back what, like what I do about that there’s like the question that then that church is bringing up in, in Darby, which is like, is it a sin to be queer? (10m 38s): And then there’s also this question of like, isn’t it a sin for you to judge people? Like what’s, like, what’s the deal with them judging me? And then also this other, this final question which is like related to the sin question, but feels different, which is like, did God make a mistake when making trans people? And I know that that’s a question that you’ve addressed multiple times, but so like it feels maybe like worth it to, to tease apart those Yeah, I mean when it comes to the, is it a sin question, right? Like I I I echo yha, no definitively no, this is a question that has been asked and answered for decades. And so like, I would encourage you, there’s a, there’s a lot of great scholarship out there if you are still really wrestling with that, that’s been written about this. (11m 21s): And also one of the things that I have found is that getting into this sort of like back and forth arguing about the academics and the translations and this word and the theology and the hermeneutics and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like can be really difficult and unsatisfying. Not because there’s anything wrong with queerness or our arguments or our positions, but just that like conservative Christianity has like so warped the conversation around not just this issue but like, like the bible in general and theology in general, that like they’ve kind of rigged the rules to the game and then are asking you to play this like rigged version of the game with them. (12m 3s): And so trying to like answer the question dead on of like, is it a sin by looking at their arguments on their terms is gonna be like crazy making. And so I would encourage you if you are a person who like cares about church community, the Bible, faith, et cetera, that it’s really important to find an affirming community, not so that they’ll tell you what you want to hear, but because like they have different tools for reading the Bible and different ideas about theology and who God is and how God acts in the world. And it’s really like a holistic thing that you need to sort of like unpack. It’s not just like, you can’t just sort of like trade one answer for another answer. (12m 45s): It’s about reading the Bible with fresh eyes and re-imagining theology outside of this sort of like vindictive, punitive, small-minded, judgmental god. And so like that takes a bit of work, that’s work that we do inside of sanctuary collective and spiritual study hall. So like if you’re interested in coming alongside some LGBTQ folks from across the country, we love to have you Queer Theology dot com slash community, but there’s also lots of books and resources written about that. We have some, a few listed on our website. You can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Is it okay? And there are be some, some resources there for you. And then what about this? Like, is it a, like did God make a mistake, Shay if that feels like an important question to, to Tackle? (13m 27s): Yeah. I, this is such a complicated question, right? Because I I, my initial response is like, no, God didn’t make a mistake. And also I know for some folks their transness doesn’t necessarily feel like something that they are excited or happy about or that it’s a gift, right? Like I, I now have come to feel that my trans identity is a real gift that, like me being trans was God’s design and intention. And that I learned a lot through that process. And like that is really beautiful and helpful for me. But I know for other folks who have experienced right, a lot of dysphoria who really struggle with their trans identity, it, it feels like saying that God made them that way is like some kind of punitive or punishing thing and right. (14m 17s): So like I wanna tread carefully in that space. And so like if, if that’s how you’re feeling about your trans identity, like it can be really tricky to hear that like God intended you for, for you to be trans, right? But I do think that there is something for me in like, I learned a lot through the process of transitioning about myself, about what it means to be a good man about what it means to be a good human in ways that I don’t think I would have learned if I were cis and, and had been born a cis guy. Like I, I’ve often shared that had I been born a cis dude, like I would be an asshole even more than I already am because like I was born in a, in a tradition, right? (15m 2s): That trained cis guys in a different way and like without having to kind of question my own masculinity, like I, I had those giftings that would have led me down that path of, of being kind of an asshole. And so like, I’m grateful for my trans experience, but I, so all of that to say that like, I think that this is a really complex and complicated question and where I land on it is that like we get to have a say in co-creating our identities with God. And I think lots of folks have have talked about that over the years and like have experienced that. And so it, it is you, you transitioning or choosing to transition whenever that looks like for you is not you going against God des God’s design. (15m 54s): And I think that for me is the bottom line. Amen. Our next question is from Tam and Tam asked, hi, I would like to know if you all believe in The Holy Spirit. If so, how does he work in the life of someone who identifies as an LGBTQ plus person? Yeah, It’s, it’s so interesting because we get lots of messages from lots of different types of people. And so when messages are like super short like this, it’s always hard to like parse out like who the, who the asker is and what sort of assumptions they might be bringing to the question and what they’re getting at. And are there any sort of unasked questions or like agendas. (16m 39s): And so like for instance, with this question, it could be asked from someone who is a conservative anti LGBT person who is trying to like look for a gotcha moment for us to trap us into saying something wrong about The Holy Spirit. Or it could be someone who is queer and like is wanting to know how The Holy Spirit could function in their life, or it could be from some other thing. And so given the lack of information, we’re just gonna take this at face value as a good faith question. If this was you or if you have a similar question, you can always like write in, in with more details, but we’re gonna just sort of do the best that we can with the limited information that we have. So Shay what would you, how would you answer this? (17m 20s): Yeah, it, so growing up, right, The Holy Spirit was a big deal, right? It was very much a, a part of my evangelical world and, and worldview and like The Holy Spirit was God’s indwelling in each believer to base honestly often mostly to convict us of sin, right? I think The Holy Spirit was supposed to do a little bit more than that, but like in our conception it Was stick back. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And so, and so I don’t believe in The Holy Spirit in that way anymore. (17m 60s): So I’ll say that to start, I do think that there is, you know, back to back to the last question of like, it depends on how you define God, right? For me, there is a spirit in the world, something bigger than me. I, I believe in that And I do believe that that spirit is working in the world in ways that I might not be able to understand or see. And I also believe that like part of what we often call The Holy Spirit or what, especially in evangelicalism we call The Holy Spirit, right? (18m 40s): Which was like conviction of sin or nudges to do certain things are also like our own intuition and the the ways that God has wired us to like seek community and to want justice in the world. And so when I think about like how God works, where the spirit works in queer and trans folks, like, part of that for me was like, this spirit helped me understand that I was trans and have the courage to pursue, pursue transition. Like the spirit calls me toward community and toward justice and toward working for the least of these, the spirit, you know, sometimes does let me know that I’m being a jerk and that I should maybe apologize to someone and like show up in a different way in community. (19m 32s): And so I, I do believe in that, but I don’t necessarily believe that it’s like a unique to Christians or BI don’t know, like the cartoon of the little like angel on your shoulder right. Telling you things, right? And, and so I, so I think that this question has a lot of nuance And I think there’s also to me of like, part of what I think evangelicalism does wrong is it creates a sense of certainty around things that are actually supposed to be quite mysterious. And I, and for me, like the working of the spirit and what the spirit is, is absolutely a mystery. (20m 16s): And like I’m not afraid of that And I don’t feel the need necessarily to define it while also like living in it. I don’t know that, I don’t know if that, that doesn’t feel very eloquent, but that’s kind of like my thoughts on The Holy Spirit at this moment. Yeah, I think for me, similar to our first question, it’s like, well it depends on how you define all of these terms. And I like, similar to you, I think that I used to have this idea of The Holy Spirit as like both a voice, I guess like in my head, mind, spirit, soul, that like, since I had accepted Jesus, like was talking to me in some way to like convict me of my sin or tell me what job I should take or this is the girl that you should date or whatever. (21m 3s): And then like, maybe also somehow there was this sort of like war like, like supernatural war between like The Holy Spirit and like Demons. So like maybe somehow like The Holy Spirit was like, I don’t know, moving and making things happen out in the world also. And so like I like don’t believe in that. And so then I for a while was like, okay, I’m like, I don’t believe in any of that. And then I did this activism where I was traveling across the country doing direct act, non-violent, direct action activism at schools that discriminated against queer people. We were stopping in Ellendale, North Dakota at, it was an Assemblies of God school, I think it was, it doesn’t matter, yellow doesn’t matter. (21m 48s): This school, this Assemblies of God school in North Dakota and like the day before we got there, the police chief of this like small town like came to our hotel and was like, we gotta talk like the towns folk have heard you’re coming. And we got wind of a plan that some guys are gonna like bring their farm combines and literally run you off the road with their combines. So we need to make a plan. So that’s like the city erected these like concrete barriers kind of like blocking off the road where we were gonna be so that the combines couldn’t get to us so we could still be like protesting outside of the school. And then we heard that there was this Christian knitting group in South Dakota called Hook and for Jesus, and they also heard we were coming. (22m 37s): And so for like months leading up to our visit, they were like knitting prayer shawls each in a different color of the original pride rainbow. And as they were knitting them, they like prayed over them and thought about us and wished us well and infused all of their good vibes into it. And then they drove up from South La Dakota, North Dakota, and they gave us all these, these like six or seven prayer shawls. And so different people took them. One of them was like a Jewish guy, one of them was a, an atheist person. And we sort of like wrapped ourselves in these prayer shawls and stood at the chicken wire fence that the school had erected to sort of like demarcate the property line. (23m 19s): And like a, a van full of guys did end up coming and they got to the barrier, they realized they couldn’t get through. They like, they ended up leaving. And I, I remember like some just being like, oh, something is sort of like moving here and three women in our group three because like, this is a, a sacred number on the trinity. And they, they took these prayer shawls and that like, it’s important to be women because the Assemblies of God is, is like deeply sexist. And so they like brought these prayer shawls onto the campus and laid them out on the center lawn and then got arrested because they weren’t supposed to be there. And like you, I was like, oh, I can like see The Holy Spirit descending onto this campus and like, I couldn’t actually see it, right? (24m 6s): But like there was this like thing that was happening and the administrators and the students watching and the police and like the protestors and like months later we heard from students and parents of like various different schools along the way that were like, I saw what happened to you all. I transferred schools. I, like, I started talking to my administration, we started an underground gsa, like it stirred something up. And I remember thinking like, oh, maybe when the writers of the Bible said like The Holy Spirit dis descended upon Jesus like a dove there like wasn’t actually a Casper the ghost thing that you could see with your eyes that like literally floated down from heaven and at got onto Jesus, right? (24m 54s): Maybe the writers of the Bible had a same experience as me where like something big and epic happened that like seemed to be larger than the sum of its parts. And they like were grasping at language to describe what was happening. And the only thing that they could do was sort of like rise to this metaphor in the same way that it was like the flames of Pentecost were on this campus or this, or The Holy Spirit had come down upon us that I felt like I could see it, right? But I couldn’t actually see it. And so like, I think there’s a, like that whatever, like that thing is, I see it on the dance floor at queer clubs when I’m like on the sidelines getting a drink of water, like looking out at my friends dancing and kissing and hugging and making out and grinding. (25m 38s): It’s like something is moving here that is transcendent and sacred. And so like I think people throughout the ages have heard have called that still small voice that like nus like nudging of the conscious that sort of like energy in a room or a space or a protest or a revolution like that is The Holy Spirit moving. And so like hell yeah, I believe in that. Amen. Okay, so our next question is from Destiny. And Destiny recorded an audio, so we’re gonna listen to that now. Okay, so I remember one of you in previous episodes giving a new context for hell and hell isn’t what we think of it as today. (26m 24s): But my question is what then do you do with that, with the concept of Demons? I’m talking about like the whole possession knowledge. I dunno, I’m just curious what your thoughts are around that. Thanks. Okay, so question about Demons and possession. So I full caveat, I am obsessed with exorcism movies. My, one of my favorite book series is the Merely Watkins series, which is by Phil Rickman, which is about a episcopal priest in Wales who is also the diocesan exorcist. (27m 8s): Like I love this shit. And also I don’t actually believe in any of it. And so it feels like, it feels like an important distinction of like, you can enjoy paranormal shows, exorcism movies, like scary creepy things. Like if that’s your jam, like I don’t think that there’s anything necessarily wrong with that. And also I, I think that the idea of of Demons and possession is just really complicated and that probably like when, when it comes to talking about scripture, right? That I think probably in almost every passage that we have about Demons, there are like two things happening. (27m 53s): One is either someone is having a mental health crisis in a time when like mental health crises weren’t a thing or like we didn’t know how to categorize them or talk about them or write about them. And so I think think that that is like one thing or the idea of possession is being used as an analogy, an allegory for something political. Che Meyers in his book Binding the Strong Man talks about this a lot. We talked about it a lot when we did our, our our long series on the gospel of Mark. (28m 34s): So if you wanna like dive really deeply into some of the things about possession, we, we talked about it in that series, but like it often folks are talking about possession as living under empire, right? And they’re using that language as a way to talk about it subversively. And so I, I think that that is is important. That’s s episode, that’s episode 4 28 and it’s titled What’s the Deal with the Pigs Mark Week two if you’re looking for it right. Put a link in the show notes to this episode. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I I think that like there are things in the world that we can’t explain and that people sometimes have experiences that, that feel bigger than than them. (29m 22s): And like I, so I don’t wanna necessarily discount all of that out of hand, but I think like we have to be really careful when we’re talking about things like this because I think that like the idea of people, people being demon possessed is just really, really dicey and has been used to like, cause a lot of harm to people, especially marginalized people. And so like I think we just gotta be, we gotta be careful on that front. Yeah, I would, everything that you said so eloquently, I don’t have much to add other than to echo to, to sort of be mindful that you’re, that you’re not using or that other people aren’t using Demons and demon possession to dehumanize other people to remove their agency, to remove your agency. (30m 12s): It think it can also be like a way that folks let themselves off the hook, right? Like the devil got to me, right? It wasn’t me, it was the devil or a demon. And so like, it’s important that you take personal responsibility for whatever the things are that you did or that if like people are being mean to you, they, and that they try to use Demons or being possessed or the devil got to them as an excuse or justification for it. Like that’s, I don’t know if that feels like BS to me. And So just to to to be mindful of like your own, the importance of your own agency in the midst of all of this. But if it, it’s if those like, so like all of that, like, and also, I don’t know, given everything that’s going on in the world right now with like the Trump administration and Elon Musk and all that, like it does, it does sort of feel like there’s this sort of like battle of like powers and principalities playing out right now. (31m 5s): And so like if that sort of like language is like meaningful to you, cool, tap into that. But just like make sure that you like know how it’s being used and how you’re defining all the terms and that it’s, that it’s like moving you somewhere and not sort of like disconnecting you from your intuition, from your agency, from your wisdom. Alright, and we’ve got one more question. This is another one from Destiny and also we’re gonna listen to it now. What do you all think about the Divine Mercy prayer for context? I pray the Chapel of Divine Mercy. It what first used to me to pray for my dad because I was afraid he wouldn’t be in heaven. (31m 45s): And it was like my granny way of consoling me, but now it just kind of fell into a thing I do to commemorate a day when I’m grieving someone. My dad dealt with an opioid addiction And I was back in a lot more scared for his soul than I am now. All right, so Brian, what do you, what do you think about this divine mercy prayer and praying for praying in Grief and praying for people who have departed? I love it. The first thing that comes to me is just like, it’s really lovely that you found something that is like meaningful for you to help you move through your Grief. (32m 32s): And so like, if that’s working for you, like yes, pay attention to that. Shannon And I are both big proponents of virtual for all sorts of aspects of our lives. And like this is an example of a ritual. We have more information about virtuals and how you can build your own inside of spiritual study hall. Again, that’s Queer Theology dot com slash community to find out more information. But I, and also I’m just sort of struck that like, this is a thing that lots of traditions have like figured out that like Grief, like death is enormous and Grief is hard and having some things to help move you through that, it is powerful. (33m 14s): It reminds me of Judaism, we say the mourner’s Scottish for a year after a person dies traditionally every single day for a year after a person dies, and then every year on the anniversary of their death. And like, I think that probably thousands of years ago, and maybe still today amongst like some orthodox and super super, super religious Jews, there’s this sense that like, you ha it’s, it’s an the obligation of their survivors to pray the mors Kaddish on behalf of the deceased person so as to like ensure that they get to heaven. Jews, most Jews these days like don’t really believe in heaven in this, in that sort of like way anymore. (33m 56s): And certainly don’t believe that. Like if no one prays for you, you’re not gonna get to, to get into heaven. I, And I think like many Jews now recognize that like it’s mostly for us, like we, we do this thing to help us move through this process and also as a way to honor these people and to keep their memory alive. And so like you’re also like not alone in like being like afraid of the, the FTA that your dad’s soul, right? And wanting to do something, to pray a prayer on this side of death to help your dad out. That’s a beautiful impulse. I think the message that I would give is that like your dad is like, okay, and you don’t have to worry that your prayers will get him into heaven or that your prayers will keep him out of heaven or that like he didn’t get into heaven because it’s something that he did. (34m 47s): I just really don’t think that that’s the way, like heaven and hell works. And also like if this is something that is like honoring of your father and meaningful to you, then like that’s a beau I think it’s a beautiful practice. And I say mourner’s, Kaddish for my, my best friend who is sort of like the heart of our chosen family. I, I view him as a sibling. It’s like every year in the anniversary of his death, I say kadish for him because like, ’cause like, we need, we need tools like this. And so like, absolutely. It’s beautiful. Yeah, I I fully agree with all of that. I, I remember, I think it was Marcus Bork who said something like, you know, I, I don’t know what happens after we die, but I trust that the love that held us in life continues to hold us after, after death. (35m 28s): Mm. And and that to me, I, I used to really think that like you couldn’t pray for those who departed. But there, there was also Madeline Engel, I think had had this quote where she was talked about, she’s like, I don’t stop loving someone after they die. So like, of course I’m going to continue to pray for them because like I continue to still love them. And I think that was really helpful for me in, in realizing that, again, like, it, it feels like it’s mostly for me, right? Like it’s, I am, I am I am praying for this person that I love who isn’t here any longer And I don’t necessarily know that it’s doing anything for them, but I definitely know that it’s doing something for me and it’s connecting me and reminding me of them and the love that I had for them and the love that they had for me when they were still alive. (36m 20s): And like, I think that that’s a really beautiful thing. And I think whatever helps us to move through Grief is really important, right? Grief is a tricky, tricky beast and it, it’s not linear and it’s not clean and it’s not any of those things. And so like rituals can help ground us in that. And like Brian said, you know, I, I think that, I think that we don’t have to do it out of a sense of anxiety that if we do it wrong or we don’t pray it enough or we whatever, that this person won’t be cared for. Like, I think that we have to let, we have to let go of that kind of pressure and anxiety. (37m 1s): But this sense of using prayer as a connective tool, as a way to move through Grief as a, a reminder of love and connection, I think that that’s a beautiful and healthy and really powerful thing. And for you, destiny, if you’re worried that your dad is in hell, or if any, to anyone listening your life, if, if you’re worried that someone who has died has like maybe gone to hell or that you might go to hell, or that if they were to die, they would go to hell. That is a really terrifying thought and like, understandably, understandably, super worrisome. And so we have an episode as part of our scary Things you might have learned in Church series all about like, will you end up in hell? And so it might be helpful to sort of revisit that topic. That’s episode number 4 26 and the title is Scary Things. (37m 42s): Will You End Up in Hell if you wanna sort of tackle this topic of hell and people ending up there, head on On. All right. And just as a reminder, if you have a question that you want us to answer on the podcast, go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast. There are a couple of different ways that you can submit questions, you can submit them in writing or through a a voice note. We would love to tackle your question on an upcoming episode. And until then, we will see you next time. See you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (38m 23s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Grief, Demons, Agnostics at Church: Listener Q&A appeared first on Queer Theology.