Deviate

“The Lamalerans hunt in a way that is almost exactly the same as the way people hunted during Moby Dick’s time. Going on one of these hunts is analogous to what Ishmael or Queequeg was doing.” –Doug Bock Clark In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Doug talk about how he came to write about the Lamalerans, and how he aimed to evoke a sense for what it’s like to live in the isolated fishing communities of that part of the world (2:30); how and why the Lamalerans came to embrace a traditional hunting and barter lifestyle, and what indigenous groups are trying to live similar lifestyles (7:30); unique social rituals, spiritual systems, and ways of speaking carried out by Lamalerans (18:30); what aspects of modernity had been embraced by the tribespeople, and why, when Doug went to that part of the world (25:00); Doug’s personal experience of living on the island with the Lamalerans, and how he chose to tell the story of the islanders​ (33:00); how the influence of technology and the outside world, including tourism, is affecting the Lamalerans (41:00); and what encounters with cultures like this can teach us about who we are, who we were, and who we will be (53:00). Doug Bock Clark (@DougBockClark) is a GQ correspondent and a contributor for the website of The New Yorker. His first book, The Last Whalers, was a New York Times Notable Book for 2019. He also produced the feature documentary Assassins, which premiered at Sundance in January 2020 and was inspired by one of his investigations. Notable Links: Aboriginal whaling (traditional hunting method) Lembata (island in Indonesia) John Allen Chau (American missionary killed on North Sentinel Island) “The American Missionary and the Uncontacted Tribe” (article) Lashed-lug boat (ancient boat-building technique) Melanesians (indigenous peoples in the South Pacific) Moby-Dick, by Herman Melville (novel) 19th century American whaling (industry) Ishmael and Queequeg (Moby-Dick characters) Amish (traditionalist Christian sect) Rumspringa (Amish rite of passage) Bahasa Indonesian (language) Lamaholot (language) Siberut (largest the Mentawai Islands, near Sumatra) Human Planet (TV documentary series) This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Carryology, and many other industry outlets. This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. AirTreks has employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One reason why Gatsby is called a ‘Great American Novel’ is that it illuminates a conversation we haven’t stopped having in this country. We keep pretending to be people we’re not.” –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his old high school friends reflect on the role of Nick Carraway as the narrator of The Great Gatsby, how he deals with race and privilege, and whether or not his perspective is reliable (7:00); Fitzgerald’s use of language and juxtaposition in depicting characters and their relationships (22:00); the characters’ lack of moral grounding amid the opulence and wealth, and how it drives the story (28:00); how the youth and the age of the characters in Gatsby resonates differently depending your age when you read it (38:30); and how big questions like love, money, and life are addressed in the novel (49:00). [Easter Egg “Lightning Round” kicks in at 51:45.] Kaye Monk-Morgan is an Assistant Vice President for Academic Affairs at Wichita State University, where she facilitates leadership and professional development opportunities for low-income and first-generation students. Erin Perry O’Donnell operates Dovetail Community Workshop, which teaches woodworking classes in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Tom Davis teaches English at Sumner Academy of Arts & Science in Kansas City, Kansas. Notable Links: The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald (novel) Wichita North High (public school) Black buck (racial slur) Nouveau riche (class-specific term) Unreliable narrator (storytelling point-of-view) Bromance (close male relationship) Wall Street Crash of 1929 (stock market crash) 1918 Spanish flu pandemic (influenza outbreak) Poor Richard’s Almanack, by Benjamin Franklin (book) Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass (memoir) Immanuel Kant (German philosopher) Baby boomers (demographic cohort) “The Ivy Crown,” by William Carlos Williams (poem) Playboy Mansion (former home of Hugh Hefner) Kato Kaelin (pop-culture personality) Manic Pixie Dream Girl (stock character in films) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“You can’t ever really know what a museum will offer you until you get there.” – Kendra Green In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kendra discuss their own earliest fascination with museums (2:40); the appeal and particularities of Icelandic museums (10:00); museums as a form of national identity (24:00); the relationship of collecting to the creation of museums (35:00); and museums as a way of engaging with one’s imagination (46:00).  Kendra Greene is a writer, artist, and author of The Museum of Whales You Will Never See. She has worked at various museums, including the Museum of Contemporary Photography, and the Chicago History Museum. Karen is currently Associate Editor of prose at the Southwest Review and a Fellow at Harvard University’s Library Innovation Lab. For more about Kendra, check out http://akendragreene.com.   Notable Links: Chicago Museum of Science and Industry (museum) Field Museum of Natural History (Chicago museum) La Brea Tar Pits (Los Angeles attraction) Icelandic Phallological Museum (penis museum) Museum of Jurassic Technology (Los Angeles museum) Cabinets of curiosities (pre-museum collections) Jack London (author) John Steinbeck (author) Nábrók (Icelandic necropants) Egil’s Saga (Icelandic saga) The Tourist, by Dean MacCannell (book) Elgin Marbles (Greek sculptures) Petra’s Stone Collection (museum) Museum of Sorcery and Witchcraft (museum) This episode of Deviate is brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. Airtreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The Airtreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by Wirecutter, The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Business Insider, and many other industry outlets. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“He gave us five rules for jumping freight trains, and we broke every one of those rules once the adventure began.” –Brian H In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and his longtime friend Brian recall their old ambition to jump freight trains across the Pacific Northwest, and what factors inspired it (4:00); what kinds of research and preparation they did to make the train-jumping experience possible (16:30); the early hours of their attempt to reach Canada by catching a boxcar from the Vancouver, Washington rail yard, and the dangers of challenges that awaited them (28:30); their unanticipated detour through the Columbia Gorge to Pasco, and their experience of getting detained by railroad police in Spokane (35:00); making the decision to escape Spokane by retracing their route, and getting stuck in a “hobo jungle” in the town of Wishram (56:30); making sense of the adventure afterwards, and how train-jumping has (and has not) changed in the social-media age (1:15:30). Notable links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Jack Kerouac (American novelist) “Travel,” by Edna St. Vincent Millay (poem) The Autobiography of a Super-Tramp, W. H. Davies (1908 memoir) Chris McCandless (traveler, subject of Into the Wild) Hero’s journey (narrative template) Dr. Giggles (1992 horror movie Rolf appeared in as an extra) Emperor of the North Pole (1973 movie) Wishram, Washington (freight-depot town) Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison (1952 novel) Rainbow Family (counterculture group) Freight-jumping links: Freight jumping (train-travel method) Burlington Northern (railroad company) Freight Train Riders of America (criminal gang) Boxcar Killer (serial killer, a.k.a. Robert Joseph Silveria Jr.) Boxcar (type of freight car) Covered hopper (type of freight car) Flatcar (type of freight car) Gondola (type of freight car) Stobe the Hobo (YouTube playlist) Remembering Stobe the Hobo (Facebook group) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Travel is often one part geography and nine parts imagination.” –Kate Harris In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Kate discuss Kate’s early fixation with exploration and interest in Mars (3:00); science as a catalyst for exploration (10:30); the universality of the human experience and her trip through Asia (21:00); the concept of borders (32:00); nostalgia and the transformational effect of travel (43:00); the role of home in relation to travel (52:00); and letting adventure into your life (1:02:00). Kate Harris (@kateonmars) is an adventure writer, named by Condé Nast Traveler as one of the “world’s most adventurous women.” Her work has appeared in Outside, The Walrus, and Georgia Review. Her book, Lands of Lost Borders, is a national bestseller For more about Kate, check out www.kateharris.ca Notable Links: Rolf’s Q&A with Kate Harris (book foreword) Silk Road (network of trade routes) Mars Desert Research Station (Mars simulation in Utah) Morehead-Cain Scholarship (UNC program) Ernest Shackleton (explorer) Fridtjof Nansen (explorer) Annie Dillard (American author) Wind, Sand and Stars, by Antoine de Saint-Exupery (book) Henry David Thoreau (writer) My Journey to Lhasa, by Alexandra David-Neel (book) Aksai Chin (region administered by China) Marco Polo (historical figure) Tomas Tranströmer (poet) Atlin (community in British Columbia) This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Carryology, and many other industry outlets. This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. AirTreks has employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I had a great day in Cambodia, and I was like, ‘Oh my god I’m so happy right now.’ I had no idea what I was doing, or what I would discover, and I just trusted that I would be OK.” –Andrew McCarthy In this episode of Deviate Rolf and Andrew discuss his relationship with interviews and the origin of the Brat Pack (3:30); fear and journaling in the time of pandemic, and treasured possessions (12:30); regrets, and artistic truth (23:00); writing as a way of thinking, and what Andrew values in his friends (29:00); and happiness, quarantine-reading, The Great Gatsby, and coming to terms with ones youthful success (38:00). Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy), who rose to fame as a teen actor during the John Hughes 80’s era, is a television director and writer of such books as The Long Way Home and Just Fly Away.  Notable Links: Proust Questionnaire (set of interview questions) Confession album (19th century autograph book) Pretty in Pink (1986 film) St. Elmo’s Fire (1985 film) Camino de Santiago (pilgrimage route) Weekend at Bernie’s (1989 film) “Hollywood’s Brat Pack,” by David Blum (article) Brat Pack (group of young actors in the 1980s) Mannequin (1987 film) Emilio Estevez (actor) George Carlin on “stuff” (comedy routine) Off the Road, by Jack Hitt (travel book) Joan Didion (American author) The Art of Memoir, by Mary Karr (book) The Big Lebowski (1998 film) Stoner, by John Williams (book) The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald (book) This episode is brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. This episode is also brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories made with the traveler in mind. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The dualities of the ‘creative person’ and the ‘business person’ don’t need to exist any more, because one person can do all of it.” –Sachit Gupta In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Sachit discuss creativity versus business success, and the currency of social media (2:30); the diminishing returns of listening to advice, and the importance of action (16:00); interview and preparation techniques, and how how “bringing value” can apply to spiritual ideas as readily as business ideas (24:00); being creative in business, and how creative people are now expected to do their own marketing and promotion (36:00); thinking innovatively, and breaking with habit and tradition (44:00); how success can be compromised in the clickbait era, and creativity in the age of social media (59:00). Sachit Gupta (@sachitgupta) is the founder of Platforms Media, where he helps creators build, grow, and scale their online platforms to amplify their message and connect with brands. He is also the host of the Conscious Creators Show.  Notable Links: Tim Ferriss (entrepreneur / podcaster) Entourage (television show) The Mixed Reviews (podcast) Kanye West (rapper) Rick Rubin (record producer) Craig Ferguson (television host) Scrivener (application) Punk icon Ian MacKaye (Deviate episode) Why dinosaurs matter (Deviate episode) Fallibility, reflexivity, and the human uncertainty principle (article) Range, by David Epstein (book) Powerhouse, by James Andrew Miller (book) Understanding Media, by Marshall McLuhan (book) Rolf’s nephew Luke’s TikTok (social media feed) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Even the briefest trip into a tunnel or a cave can feel like an escape into a parallel reality, the way characters in children’s books vanish through portals into secret worlds.”  –Will Hunt In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Will talk about our imaginative relationship with underground places, and how it often starts in childhood (4:30); the concept of “urban exploration” in the industrial spaces underneath cities, and Will’s fascination with a NYC graffiti artist named REVS (11:00); the catacombs of Paris, how easy it is to get lost underground, and how hard it is to map underground passages (26:15); going underground as a form of time travel, the microbes that live underground, and the relics that can be found underground (40:00); the spiritual aspect of spending time underground in the dark zone of a cave (51:00); and how and why to get started exploring underground (59:00). Will Hunt’s (@willhunt__) writing, photography, and audio storytelling have appeared in The Economist, the Paris Review Daily, The Atavist, The Guardian, Discover, Audible Originals, and Outside, among other places. He is currently a visiting scholar at the NYU Institute for Public Knowledge. Underground is his first book. More about Will at: https://www.willhunt.net/ Notable Links: Salt Cathedral of Zipaquirá (underground church in Colombia) Mount of the Temptation (hill in the Judean Desert) Panoptikum (labyrinth in Budapest) Freedom Tunnel (railway tunnel in NYC) Urban exploration (exploration of abandoned places in cities) Revs (graffiti artist) Catacombs of Paris (tunnel network) Philibert Aspairt (man who died in the Paris catacombs in 1793) Cataphiles (urban explorers who illegally tour the Mines of Paris) Metro-2 (purported secret underground metro system in Moscow) How Getting Lost in a Cave Affects the Brain (article) Strataca (salt-mine museum in Kansas) Lakota Wind Cave (site in South Dakota) Homestake Mine (deep South Dakota gold mine) Gregory of Nyssa (Christian saint) This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by Wirecutter, The New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Business Insider, Carryology, and many other industry outlets. This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals.  AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“You need to create your own life, and gather memories while you still can. There are no guarantees that you will have a ‘next year’ or a ‘ten years from now’ or even a tomorrow.” –Maggie Downs In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Maggie discuss how she started traveling (3:00); “trying on” different versions of yourself during travel (17:00); and travel as a way to reflect on your life (37:00). Maggie Downs (@downsanddirty) is an award-winning writer whose work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, and Lonely Planet’s True Stories From the World’s Best Writers and Best Women’s Travel Writing. She is the author of Braver Than You Think. This episode is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I reached out to dozens of potential mentors. The two that that changed my life are the ones who didn’t give me advice upon first meeting me, but asked me questions..” –Alex Banayan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Cal, and Alex discuss how Alex realized he desperately he needed help in writing his book The Third Door, how Cal Fussman came to help him with the project, and why asking questions is as essential of a mentor as is giving advice (5:30); why the vulnerability and tension of good storytelling is more essential than conveying dry facts in writing a business book, and how Cal encouraged Alex to recount a humiliating story about sending a single shoe to Warren Buffet at the behest of a bad-faith mentor (23:00); what happens when a would-be mentor gives the mentee advice out of narcissism or bad faith, and how to know when not to heed the advice of a mentor (35:00); how to find and recount the most vulnerable and appealing part of your own life-narrative, and how Cal taught himself how to tell good stories (42:00); what Cal and Alex’s mentoring sessions looked like, in terms of what Cal was trying to get Alex to understand (51:00); what Cal learned from Alex as his mentor, how Alex’s insights improved his career, and what older people in general can learn from younger people (56:30); and what kinds of advice Cal and Alex have for people seeking to discover and fine-tune mentor-mentee relationships (1:02:00). Cal Fussman (@calfussman) is a journalist, author, and Writer at Large for Esquire Magazine, where he has interviewed the likes of Muhammad Ali, Mikhail Gorbachev, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, Robert DeNiro and hundreds of others who’ve shaped the last half-century. Alex Banayan (@AlexBanayan) was named to Forbes’ 30 Under 30, and Business Insider’s “Most Powerful People Under 30” lists. He is the author of the international bestseller The Third Door. For more about Cal and Alex, check out their websites, https://www.calfussman.com and https://thirddoorbook.com. Notable Links: Larry King (television host) Warren Buffett (American investor) Reid Hoffman (American internet entrepreneur) Nelson Mandela (former President of South Africa) Muhammad Ali (boxer) Gary Vaynerchuk (entrepreneur) Elliot Bisnow (entrepreneur) Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode) The Alchemist, by Paulo Coelho (book) Sonia Sotomayor (Supreme Court Justice) Charles Dickens (writer) Fyodor Dostoevsky (author) O. Henry (writer) Sugar Ray Leonard (boxer) Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (SNL sketch) @lukeoakvt (TikTok account) This episode of Deviate is brought to you by Tortuga Backpacks, which set the standard for the best, most durable, organized, and comfortable travel backpacks. Tortuga products also include daypacks, duffels, and other travel accessories, which are all made with the traveler in mind and have been featured by Wirecutter, the New York Times, Travel + Leisure, Business Insider, Carryology, and many other industry outlets. The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.  Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.