Discourse in Magic

Jonah connects with magic consultant Blake Vogt. Together they walk through how to be creative, how to work with a team, and Blake shares some incredible stories from his time as a magic consultant. Dropping School To Work In Magic Blake loves telling the story of how he first came to learn about magic. It was at a Pizza Hut and there was a magician moving through the restaurant performing for the tables. In an instant all of Blake’s love for puzzles, performance, and problem solving crystallized into a single profession and he knew he’d never escape the magic world.  Blake shares with Jonah his incredible personal journey that started with him walking out on class and ending up working for David Copperfield as one of his “Tinker Boys” behind the scenes. From there he’s moved around the country to consult with some of the biggest names in show business. Embracing Bad Ideas From working with David Copperfield and David Blane to big name acts like Kanye and Pharell and even landing on the set of Ant Man, Blake has never promised anyone a good idea. But he has promised that they would get every single one of his bad ideas. It’s his embrace of the bad idea, and never shutting up, that he’s convinced has led to some of his greatest accomplishments and breakthroughs in magic consulting. While talking with Jonah, Blake will share with you his advice for how to break into the world of magic consulting, how to prepare to perform magic on TV, and how to be your best creative self. Wrap-Up Endless Chain Mark Kalin. “He is one of the most interesting human beings alive. If you talk to him for one hour, so much crazy will come out of his    mouth that I am excited to listen to that episode”!  What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? “I like how much stuff is available. Every week there is a new youtube video of a magician on tv… and I love being able to watch all that.” “But that is also what I don’t like, because now that there is so much stuff out it becomes very hard to sift through it all.”  Take home point “Bad Ideas. Just the value of them and learning to not be afraid of them… almost any good idea I’ve ever heard, came from them”. Plugs You can follow Blake on instagram at @blakevogt You can check out what Blake has on sale by visiting blakevogt.com

This week Jonah connects with Kevin Li. Kevin is a two-time contestant on Fool Us, and a prolific social media magician who expanded his business into virtual performances. Throughout this conversation he offers up tips on how to build your brand, your identity, and your magic from influences outside of the magical realm.  A Walking Marketer Kevin Li was lucky enough to get his start learning about magic from the Magic Castle itself but it wasn’t until College that he started to see magic as the legitimate and viable path for a career that it was. His parents took some convincing, of course, but there was no doubt in his mind that performing magic was the way forward for him. Because of that Kevin has learned early on that he needed to be a walking marketer. When you’re performing there’s never a guarantee of the next gig or the next contract so you’re always having to put yourself out there and telling everyone what you do because you never know when that next show is going to be.  Being Original Among Trends Kevin is a prolific social media magician with a successful following on both TikTok and Instagram. But that didn’t happen because he followed the trends and in his conversation with Jonah he emphasizes how important it was to be original and not to copy the other trends happening on social media, especially in the realm of magic.  In order to be the original performer he wanted to be, Kevin spends a lot of time consuming lots of non-magic media. He’s convinced that if you’re going to set out to produce a lot of content you need to be able to consume a lot of content and he offers tips and suggestions on how you can reach out and find your inspiration from other mediums and genres as well as advice on how to make trending videos of your own.  Wrap-Up Endless Chain I’m gonna recommend my good friend and consultant Micky Wong. Micky is an incredible magician based in Hong Kong and he’s done a lot of consulting work, tv work, and he’s helped me with both my magic and script writing. He’s just well rounded in everything magic wise.   What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? One thing I do like about modern magic is you’re able to experiment more. It’s not going to be too daunting to try out new things. I feel like the creativity there, people are more accepting of all kinds of ideas. Like, people are actually looking for new ideas all the time. They don’t wanna see the same stuff over and over again. That should make you more confident about trying new things. One thing I don’t like is carbon copies of social media magicians. It’s not just a TikTok trend that everyone gets to copy. In magic it’s not the same, don’t be a carbon copy of one another. Please be original.       Take home point Be original but don’t forget to have fun. Sometimes when you’re so hooked on a specific idea or method and you visit it too long you can start hating it.  Plugs Instagram – @KevinLiMagic YouTube – Kevin Li Magic TikTok – @magickevinli And for all things Supper Club visit the Rosalynn Magic Club

This week Jonah connects with Mark Desouza. Mark might be one of the most well connected magicians around with a deep curiosity of the art of magic and an even deeper collection of magic props. Magic Communities Mark Desouza has a reputation for knowing everyone and having a foot in both classic and modern worlds of magic. He opens up with Jonah about how he first connected with the community at his magic shop and shares his recollections on how he made his first contacts and found himself invited into the inner circles of top underground magicians.  The real secret he believes is that he had desire, not just curiosity. He didn’t just show up and ask these experts to show him a trick. He did the research, and worked on his craft, and by the time he approached a magician for the first time he already had informed questions to ask them. And everytime he’s asked people in that way, they’ve always responded positively.  Magic Collections Mark never considered himself a collector, yet if you ask around his collection is spoken about for miles. Mark never bought things just for the collection but found himself buying things that truly interested him. That might be why he owns 50 sets of chinese sticks.   Mark shares with Jonah some of his favorite items in his collection, his reasons for buying new props, and which items from his collection he uses in his acts.  Magic Competitions If you have any questions about magic competitions you should make sure you stick around to the later half of Mark’s chat with Jonah as he opens up to the realities of modern magic competitions. The competition has never been more fierce but the rewards aren’t as high as they used to be. Even winning the FISM Grand Prix doesn’t guarantee you’ll have work. There just simply aren’t enough venues that will book an act like that.  So why compete? Mark proposes that there are some very good reasons to compete and the best reason is for the critique you’ll receive from the judges.  Wrap-Up Endless Chain Eric DeCamps and Will Fern What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? Likes magicians doing long form. There are magicians doing one-man shows in a whole lot of different venues now. Does not like the internet not properly respecting magic and its creators. One of the biggest problems is you’re going to get creators not willing to share because they’re just going to get ripped off.   Take home point Research & diligence.  You need to begin to research your material. Where did it come from? Who has done it before? And what will make it good for you?  If you start on something, carry through with it. Don’t get sidetracked.  Plugs You can still find some of Mark’s videos from the early 80’s for sale on Meir Yedid’s mymagic.com. Mark also has a four hour lecture on stand-up magic available at Penguin Magic. And while Mark’s books are out of print they will soon be made available as e-books and if you’d like to receive a special deal from Mark then you should e-mail him at fkaps@aol.com.

This week Jonah breaks down the three biggest mistakes that magicians make when they’re testing our new material for their shows. If you’re trying to get a new trick better, if you’re performing on open mic nights or putting it in your show, or trying to test material in your stage show, how do you make it better? How do you make it work? And more importantly, how do you make it so that you try a trick out and over time it gets better and better and makes its way into your act instead of you losing confidence in it. Here are the three biggest mistakes that magicians are making in trying out new material.  Mistake #1: Not Memorizing A Script There are many ways that you can write a script but really what you need to do at the end of the day is, if you want your trick to get better, you need to have some things memorized. There is a certain type of magic that happens not when you write a script but when you’ve memorized a script and you’re out on stage. There’s a different level of confidence and rhythm to what you do because you are figuring out the pacing and the timing of what you’re saying. Many people sit and write a script but they don’t memorize it, and you need to know your script backwards and forwards. That is what’s going to give you confidence on stage and that is what is going to give you something to edit when things are not working the way you want it to. Mistake #2: Not Padding Your Tricks You need to do something on that stage to build rapport with the audience, and more importantly, build your rhythm with the audience. Don’t just go there and then try something brand new for the very first time. It’s going to feel strange. So if you can, if you have jokes or tricks or lines or sentences, or things that you say that you’ve said before, that you are confident in, then try to put a little bit of that into the new trick. Before you do this new trick, it makes a huge difference not to just run on stage and try something that you’ve never tried before. The rhythm is going to be very weird. You want to learn what the rhythm is with you talking back and forth with the audience. And the first time that you write a script, the first time you memorize it, you’re not going to know that rhythm. So put something earlier in the tricks that you can establish a little bit of your rhythm and build a little bit of that momentum with the new Trek and it’s going to help it be a lot smoother in your act. It’s going to make it feel a lot less new when you’re performing it for an audience, because you will have already built some rhythm with them. If you have a trick or a joke or some lines or a sentence that you are used to saying then start with that when you step out on the stage. Mistake #3: Not Recording Your Sets  If you’re trying to get better than you need to be able to watch your magic critically. And it has never been easier to just pop your phone on a $9 tripod and record the set. When you see standup comedians out at open mic shows, they are recording their sets. They want to watch it back. They want to get the rhythm and the timing right. You should be doing exactly the same. You need to be recording your sets and recording your performances. There’s nothing else to say about that. And then you have to watch them. You will be baffled by how much better you will get iIf you just commit to recording your sets and watching it afterwards. You’ll make just minor changes and by the time you’ve done it a half dozen times maybe you’ll be making minor changes at that point. Filming the set is the only way to get better. We think that we remember how everything went, but when we’re on stage our adrenaline is pumping and we don’t really accurately remember the situation the way we think we do. But the camera never lies. So record your sets. That is the way to get better at your material and hopefully get a new trick that you’re trying into your set and into your repertoire. Come See Jonah Live If you’re anywhere near Toronto, come see The Newest Trick In The Book. It’s free and there are eight magicians on the line up. It’s going to be epic and you should be there.

This week Jonah connects with movie writer & director Kate Tsang to talk about her latest movie, Marvelous and the Black Hole. Marvelous and the Black Hole features stars such as Rhea Pearlman and is a story about a teenager who teams up with a magician and navigates her inner demons and her dysfunctional family by learning about sleight of hand magic.  The Magic of Stories Kate Tsang doesn’t have a background in magic, for her the magic in her life was the stories told to her while growing up. What she wanted to do was take the experience she had with the wonder of storytelling and use sleight of hand magic to tell that story. To do that she signed up for lessons at the Magic Castle and what started as a research project soon expanded as she found mentors and friends within the magic community.  Authentic Movie Magic Knowing she wanted to do magic right on the camera for the movie watching audience, Kate reached out to her newfound magic community and brought Kayla Drescher on board as the film’s magic consultant. Kayla taught the cast what they needed to do and remained on set behind the camera to make sure everything was performed as it should. The result is a marvelous movie that doesn’t just use magic to tell its story but also presents magic in an authentic way.  Watch Online Marvelous and the Black Hole will be available for On Demand & Digital starting Friday April 29th and you can pre-order your copy today on AppleTV by visiting apple.co/3OKNkKT  

This week Jonah speaks with Benjamin Barnes about the unique Chicago magic scene and what to look for when you want to build your own magic community. Benjamin Barnes is a staple of the Chicago magic community, with direct ties to Eugene Burger, a huge hand in the recurring show Chicago Magic, and now the Entertainment Director of the Chicago Magic Lounge. Ben Barnes not only exemplifies Chicago magic but has also seen it all.  More Than One Kind of Magic Benjamin might not have understood what was happening when he first saw magic performed in front of him while he was in pre-school but even then he knew that magic was for him. Later, as he grew up and developed his interest into magic he’d even eventually learn that there were a lot more ways to work in magic than just being a famous David Copperfield style of magician. For a long time he couldn’t imagine all the various ways one can work in magic, from corporate gigs, to performing in lounges, camps, schools, and on the street. So, thinking that the only kind of viable magic direction was through the big name stars, he looked up Jeff McBride’s private number in the Yellow Pages and called him at his home. He wasn’t home but Jeff’s wife gave him the phone number for the venue he was performing at, and amazingly he did get in touch with Jeff McBride who told him that if he lived in Chicago he should be getting lessons from Eugene Burger. Another set of phone numbers was shared and soon enough Benjamin was learning from Eugene and never looking back. Chicago Style Benjamin started in Chicago and his entire magic career has revolved around the chicago community. He shares with Jonah how that magic scene has evolved over the years, from small, funny, closeup magic tricks, to bigger theatrical performances, and how folks like Eugene Burger pushed the needle to change how magic was perceived and conceived in the windy city.  These days magic in Chicago is much more scripted and practical. Most importantly the community has zero competition and prides itself on how cooperative, collaborative, and welcoming it is.  Learning What The Audience Wants Running the Magic Lounge in Chicago has given Benjamin and unique insight into what lay people audiences are looking for in magic shows. And every magician should hear what Benjamin has to share with Jonah because the reality might shock them. Audiences don’t care about the method, or how big of a name you are in the magic community. They don’t go to shows to see stars or flashy unique overly complicated tricks. They’re expectations are much more simple than that, and it can be very easy to over complicate that relationship or think that you’re a much bigger deal than you really are.  People come to a magic show because there is magic. Most people rarely see live magic so many of them don’t even really know what magic means. They might have an impression, or seen a performance on tv on a show like America’s Got Talent, but they don’t really know what they’re in for when they go to a magic show. The magician’s job is not just to entertain the audience but also provide an experience that they will want to come back to.  Wrap-Up Endless Chain Rachel Wax What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? Benjamin likes that magic is becoming more and more democratic and more diverse. Benjamin does not like seeing attention for the sake of attention. He sees a lot of people asking what they can get from magic and not asking about what they can give to magic.  Take home point Look for ways to express who you are through your magic. If you do that you will stand out. Plugs You can follow Benjamin on Instagram @barnesmagic and check out barnesmagic.com to learn more about his upcoming performances.

This week Jonah offers up three tips to consider when making your promo video. Your promo video is the most valuable asset that you have to get yourself booked as a magician. The biggest difference in your magic business as to whether or not people choose to book you or not. If you have been trying to book yourself out as a magician for any amount of time, you’ll realize that very soon, you need proof that you can do what you say you can do. And the form of proof that you possibly could have would be a promo video, a video demo of what you do with audiences, people, reacting, clips, and different things like that. The Wrong Promo What happens if you get this wrong? Well, the first thing that happens if you get this wrong is you don’t have a promo video and you have to dodge that question when it comes up. If you don’t have a promo video it’s very difficult to convince new potential clients that you’re going to be perfect. The second thing that happens if you get this wrong is maybe you do have a video, but it is a video of you performing for the wrong audience. So maybe it’s you performing for kids when you’re trying to get corporate gigs. Maybe it’s you performing outdoor street magic when really you’re trying to do private events and you’re trying to do events for companies. There’s lots of different ways that you can have the wrong footage. Your video could convince people that you are great but not the right person for the job.  The third thing that happens if you get this wrong is you could have an amateur looking video, a video that basically convinces them that you are not good enough for the part. So we want to make sure that we do not do any of those things.  The Right Promo Here’s what starts to happen if you get a great promo video, if you have one that really works for you. The first thing that happens is you’re going to start booking bookings right away. People are going to call you and say you’re perfect for the job. You don’t have any convincing to do, you don’t fight on price because they see proof that you can actually do this.  The second thing that happens if you get this right is your conversion rate goes up. Let’s say before one in every three people who inquired with you actually ended up booking you. Now it may end up being something like 50% or 60% of people, maybe even more because you have the one thing they’re looking for, which is they want proof that this is actually going to be good.  And thing number three that happens if you get this right is you start to get authority in your market. If you do a good enough job of showing people a promo video, with lots of people in your market in that video, then it becomes unequivocally true that you are the expert in that market because you do loads of shows for just that market. How To Get The Best Promo Now let’s talk about three things you can do to actually make your promo video better or put together a really good promo video. First, show them themselves. There’s a lot of different things we can put in promo videos. We can put closeups of us doing card tricks. We can do footage of us on stage. We can do footage of lots of different things. The real thing that we want is we want promo footage of us performing an event. When the viewer looks at that, they realize that this is my people. This is my venue. So if you perform at comedy clubs then your promo video should have lots of comedy clubs. If you perform at summer camps, it should have summer camps. If you perform at corporate events, it should have corporate events. Or at the very least it should look like people are at corporate events. Too many magicians who get their promo video spend thousands of dollars on getting somebody to go into a studio with them and take fancy videos that nobody really needs. It’s not the video in the studio that’s helpful. It’s the video footage that comes from the actual events of other clients just like them. Second, the next time you have a booking, for a market that you do lots of shows for, bring a videographer to it. Paid for quality. There’s a few things in our business that we can do. You can print business cards on your own. One that Jonah doesn’t recommend that you do on your own is making a promo video. This is the number one deciding factor on the planet that’s going to help convince people that you are the right person for the job. Jonah recommends that you hire somebody to make the video. It is obvious when a video has been edited or put together by a pro versus an amateur.  Getting Promo Video Help If you need help putting together a promo video and marketing your services, please send Jonah an email to magic@torontomagiccompany.com. You can chat about potentially working together and see if he can help. Jonah has a new gigs program starting next month, and that might be for you. So please send him an email. Additionally, there is a Discourse in Magic Facebook group where different listeners of this podcast get together and chat about magic and podcasts and all things like that. So if that might be for you, then check out the page at facebook.com/discourseinmagic

This week Jonah is joined by Jonathan Bayme, CEO of theory11, to talk about his work applying magic minded thinking to his business and the products he creates. Jonathan was five years old when he watched a performance of David Copperfield, and by thirteen he was headlining events to sold out audiences. Soon he’d finish highschool early to begin producing and consulting for some of the biggest names in magic and in 2007 he founded theory11 and has taken his keen ability for magic minded thinking into other businesses and environments beyond the performance stage. Learning To Perform, Not Just Present Jonathan shares with Jonah the story of his early years. From knowing at a very young age that he would be spending his life performing as or working with magicians. He learned the difference between performing magic and presenting magic and shares stories of the lessons he learned and people he met, and tried to meet, that directed the course of his early magic career.  Going With The Wind Jonathan is quick to remind you that he has never gone in with a long master plan and is always open to change. It’s that flexibility that allowed him to put himself into moments of opportunity that put him in the same room as JJ Abram, pitching a plan to sell a mystery box with his name on it, or working with other high profile clients creating playing cards for their brands. From founding theory11, to producing The Magician at New York’s NoMad with Dan White, to having to pivot that show into the virtual performance of The Magician Online, Jonathan has been moving the wind and accepted the changes to his trajectory all along. Is this where he thought he’d end up? No. Would he rather be anywhere else? Not a chance. Sending The Second Email Jonathan also offers up a lot of advice for budding magicians who want to make this artform their career. He shares with Jonah his background on working with The Illusionists, to founding his company, and how he pitched the idea of a one player game to Target and how Neil Patrick Harris ended up attached to the project.  Ultimately, many times, it has come down to knowing the value of your product and returning time after time even after you get rejected. Sending the second e-mail. Or the third. Or the tenth. Never giving up until your vision is realized.  Wrap-Up Endless Chain Blake Voght What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? One thing I love going on in magic right now is how much the internet has become even more of a vehicle for magicians connecting than it ever has been.Whether that’s YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, message boards, anything… you have the ability to connect with other musicians in 15 different forms. There’s a very specific genre of magic that I like. I like pushing magic being seen as a sophisticated upscale intellectual art form. I like elevating the art form. So the things that I liked the most, or the magicians that do that. Anything that’s the opposite of that is probably what I liked the least. Take home point Being very willing to go where your passion leads you and you don’t have to have a goal. People ask, “what’s your five-year plan”? Like, I don’t have a five day plan let alone a five-year plan. If you don’t have a plan it means that you’re going a little bit more with the wind. It means potentially more insecurity. And your career path, not knowing exactly what you’re doing. You have to be totally set on what you’re doing at the moment, but I’m just saying, be willing to deviate from your original plan. You can change your story and you can become something completely different or you could not be a professional magician and you could go work at something else and magic is your hobby and that’s totally fine. It doesn’t make you less of a magician because you don’t perform. I just want to open people’s eyes to how many options and opportunities there are in magic and ways that you can have a life in magic that don’t necessarily have to involve becoming a famous magician. Plugs Theory11’s website is theory11.com. If you haven’t seen the Magician Online, you can go do themagicianonline.com.  Box One is the game that we made with Neil Patrick Harris, go to boxonegame.com

Jonah returns with all new interviews and discussions coming your way. Looking Back It’s been almost two years since the pandemic and what a journey it’s been. And we remember that in March or April of 2020 saying that when this whole pandemic thing wraps up, when it ends, when you go back to normal, you’re going to miss the time that you had. And you’re going to wish that you would have spent a couple more hours or days working on this, or a couple more hours or days working on that. And Jonah is here to tell you that he’s wishing that he had more time and that he did more and that he took more advantage of the downtime in the world and downtime in the business because things are getting back to normal. In-Person Magic Is Back Jonah is back and also in-person magic is back. All of the magic venues are sort of back putting on shows. All your favorite magicians are touring around and performing and you get to see them live. And, as well, gigs are back to in-person gigs. A lot of us were doing exclusively virtual and some people still are doing exclusively virtual while some people are doing both, but in-person gigs are back and they are happening. It’s time to take all of those ideas that have been bouncing around in your head for the last two years and put them into the world. If you have nerves about returning to the stage and returning to performing then Jonah’s advice is to just pick the trick that you’re going to do in advance. One that you know and that you know you are going to do that way. That way you don’t have to worry about it in the moment. You know exactly what trick to show them. And you can even pick the trick based on the environment that you’re going to be in. It gives you a lot of advantage because you know exactly what you’re going to be doing. You can rehearse it and you can picture it in your mind. Instead of you practicing every trick, you’re just practicing one trick. Don’t go out there and wing it. The more prepared you are the better and just know exactly what you’re going to do. Don’t stress yourself out about trying to do a million different things. Decide what trick is going to go with what format and make it happen.  Gigging Is Back And while in person magic is back, so is gigging. It’s happening slowly because we’re not in a corporate season right now but in camps, schools, resorts, fairs, festivals, company events, and restaurants… all of these places are getting ready to launch or relaunch or get things back to normal. And now is your chance to go and get a spot, a residency, something! Go reach out to some of these places. This is a really wonderful time.  When the pandemic started, it was a really good time to put on a company’s first virtual event and do something for them virtually to help them better understand the medium. And now a lot of companies are struggling to figure out how to make their event more fun. And you may have the answers to that. So send emails to every place that you know that is reopening because they’re transitioning back to in-person. Those are great places to be reaching out to about your services. And a lot of the magicians that used to do this probably retired over the course of the pandemic so maybe there’s some room for you! Jonah Has Your Back If you need help getting bookings and getting gigs then send Jonah an email. The email address is magic@torontomagiccompany.com. And he has another group starting in a couple of weeks to help magicians grow their business and book some gigs.So if you need some help with that, then send Jonah an email.  Welcome Back Finally, if you live anywhere near Toronto, Jonah and Ben are back putting on live shows. They have a live show happening at Yuk Yuk’s this coming week called Hocus Jokus! It’s a comedy magic show and it is a ton of fun. So if you want to see a Jonah performance, and you live anywhere near Toronto, this is a wonderful chance and he would love to see you there.

This week Jonah is joined by prolific magician and prop maker, Bizzaro. Bizzaro has been a staple in the magic world, both as a performer and as a prop maker. In this episode he and Jonah discuss building a workshop, creativity, and problem solving.  Build It Yourself Bizzaro has always been best when left alone to his own devices, from a kid who would always check out the same books every week from the library to the adult who makes his visions come to life by making it himself.  Bizzaro opens up about his early days making props for friends in the magic club and discovering early on that he had a zeal for performing and just heading out and doing it.  Each Trick Has A Story From a glue bottle that you can drink from to a refilling oreo cookie, Bizzaro’s inventions are wonderfully weird and unique. So how does he come up with them? According to Bizzaro they all come from different places and every trick has a story. Most of the time the inception of the idea comes from the question, “wouldn’t it be fun if”?  He shares with Jonah stories about the creations of some of his most popular tricks and offers advice on how to find that creative inspiration in your own surroundings.  Propping Up Magicians Along with creating escape rooms, Bizzaro is also a prolific prop maker. He offers up advice on building your own workshop and what software he’s found most useful to help design his creations.  Wrap-Up Endless Chain Rudy Coby & The Shocker What do you like about modern magic? What do you not like? Both likes and dislikes social media magic. On one hand it’s sometimes unimaginative, too short, and not very well presented. On the other hand, it means that when the public actually gets out to see a real live magic show they are blown away because social media magic has lowered their expectations!   Take home point When you have an idea just make it, don’t be lazy just do it. Plugs Bizzaro’s main website is bizzaro.ninja  His prop making site is bizzarobydesign.com And if you need some escape room work done you can visit Test Subjects at testsubjects.com And if you want more tips on creativity, you can email Bizzaro, or find him on social media. Let him know you heard him on this podcast and he’ll send you a link to his creativity notes.