#AmWriting

Producer Andrew Parrella Claims His Own Gothic WorldIn this follow-up session, Jennie Nash checks in with producer-turned-novelist Andrew Parrella, who returns to the “hot seat” with a major breakthrough. After a week of “staring at the screen and walking the dog,” Andrew realizes he has been “writing small” to keep the project manageable. By leaning too heavily on the existing framework of Bram Stoker’s Dracula, he was inadvertently stifling his own creativity. He decides to “embrace the big,” shifting the story from a cautious tribute into a standalone Historical Gothic Mystery. This evolution includes a high-stakes world-building choice: making vampires a known, though unaccepted, part of the public consciousness in 1920s London, adding a layer of modern resonance and social tension to the atmosphere of dread.The duo also digs into the “glaring holes” that surface when a writer decides to expand their narrative scope. Andrew identifies a need for deeper research into the Suffragette movement to ensure his protagonist’s familial history feels integrated rather than “tacked on.” By connecting the mystery of the protagonist’s mother to historical activism, Andrew finds a way to ground the supernatural elements in a more 3D reality. As they grapple with the structural puzzle of Point of View—weighing the benefits of including voices from the past versus staying close to the present—Jennie challenges Andrew to choose the perspective that best amplifies the protagonist’s transformation and the secrets hidden within a mysterious Gladstone bag.Visit Andrew on the web: https://www.andrewparrella.comListen to the first session with Andrew:#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time.Today I’m talking again with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who stepped out from behind the mic to work on his novel. He completed our winter blueprint challenge and is now working on blueprint revisions, which is such an important stage in the writing process, digging into what you really want the book to be, what you really wanna say.And Andrew’s told me he just had a revelation, which I’m dying to hear about. But um, before we get to that. Um, when we’re talking here today, the first episode where we did hot seat coaching launched out into the world, and I wanted to ask how [00:01:00] you’re feeling about that.Andrew: Um, it feels a little weird. Um, you know, I’m used to being behind the mic.I’m used to, um, helping obviously produce a lot of audio over the years and, and, and helped get a lot of podcast episodes out into the world. It’s strange to. Kind of be featured in a podcast episode. Um, that is a new experience for me. Um, uh, you know, when we recorded it, it was just you and I talking, but now it’s like out in the world and, uh, and, and people can listen, um, and, uh, and, and, and judge, um, which of course they’re welcome to do.Uh, but uh, but yeah, so it’s a little, it’s a little weird, but it’s fun. It’s fun.Jennie: Yeah, that’s, that’s you, you hit the nail on the head, the, the judge part. As soon as you put anything into the world, you put yourself up for judgment. And what we’re doing here in these sessions is, is really, in some ways so intimate because we’re getting to watch [00:02:00] somebody’s thinking as it’s unfolding, as it’s progressing before they know what they want it to be.And we’re watching someone hopefully, um. You know, hone in on their, their voice, their story, their point, their whole thing. And it’s, um, it’s really special to get to see it unfold, I think. Um, so thank you for. Putting yourself out there.Andrew: I’m, I’m happy to do it. This is, this has been a really value, this is a really valuable exercise for me personally.So, uh, happy to, happy to share that with folks.Jennie: So what happened last time was you left with some, uh, homework, which you did. Mm-hmm. And what was interesting from my point of view was when I. Looked at what you did. My first thought was, well, he didn’t do very much. And I, I sort of thought, uh, okay, that’s funny.Andrew: I kind of felt the same way.Jennie: Oh, that’s really funny. But then when I read it, it was like, oh no, you worked out a [00:03:00] lot of things that we had been circling around. And primarily the, um, I would say the. Personal familial history of abriana and her connection to this famous vampire hunter. So that all got really sorted.Um, but the, the one that really made me chuckle was you have this beautiful description of your ideal reader in the blueprint, and it, it’s probably. I don’t know, it might be 500 words. It’s, it’s like, you know, this ideal reader really well, and I can tell that you actually really love this ideal reader and want to I do, I do.Yeah. It’s really sort of beautiful, um, the specificity of, of who she is, but you added like three lines to the end of that. That was part of what you, what you did. And, um, [00:04:00] one of those lines was. In response to something we talked about, which was, does your ideal reader, are they familiar with Dracula? And you said, now, no.So that was really interesting to me. Do you wanna talk a little bit how you landed on that? Because I, I do think it might impact the genre.Andrew: Uh, yeah, I agree. And I, I saw your note about the genre too, which, which, um, I’m, I’d be eager to talk more about, but yeah, I mean, as, as I was thinking about this, I say I feel like I didn’t do much.I spend a lot of time staring at the screen, uh, over the last couple of weeks and like. Walking my dog and thinking about these questions that you were posing. I feel like I spent hours doing it and like it, like, and, and like the words on the page since we last spoke, don’t, I don’t know, have reflect like the number of, the number of new words on the page.Don’t reflect that. But I spent, I spent a lot of time thinking about, about that question and [00:05:00] some of the other questions that, that you posed. And I think for a long time I wanted to presume a familiarity with Stoker’s Dracula, um, because it made my job easier. And, and so I think I, I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that though it is a popular book, not everybody has read it.And while many people, because it’s a popular book, many people have some. Passing knowledge about the structure, about the plot, about some of the characters maybe, but they won’t know. They won’t know the level of detail that I do having read it many times. And so I need to create, I need to expand the world.I need to create my own world. I can’t just live in Stoker’s world. I need to create my own world. These characters, while they have the same names as the characters in in Stoker’s novel. They are, they become different characters in my world, the [00:06:00] world I’m creating. And so I need to, I need to kind of accept that.And so it doesn’t matter if you’ve read Dracula before you pick up this book, and these, these characters have a rich backstory that I will allude to. And if you’ve read Dracula, you might pick up on some extra, some extra bits, but this is still going to be a cohesive, discreet novel that you’ll be able to enjoy.Regardless of, uh, whether you’ve read the, the, the original or not.Jennie: Okay. That’s huge. Is that the revelation or is there something else?Andrew: No, that is notJennie: theAndrew: revelation.Jennie: Okay. So we’ll get, wow, okay. We’ll get to that in a minute. But that, the reason I said it impacts the genre is that you said your ideal right reader wouldn’t describe herself as a horror fan and that her.Most, she’s, she loves this, um, period of time. She loves London. Um, you know, there’s a lot of things that [00:07:00] connect her to this story, but not horror. And so my thought was, should, should it still be classified as horror? Uh, there are lots of other ways to classify it, you know, historic, um, a historic thriller, a historic mystery.You know, gothic could be in there, but what, what are your thoughts at this point about that?Andrew: Yeah, and I, I, I think we’ve, we’ve, we’ve used the term horror when we talk about it, but when I, when I, when I did the blueprint challenge, I think I did kind of identify more like historical gothic as the genre.And, and, and as, as you say in one of your notes, this is feeling more like a mystery, a murder mystery than it is horror. Like, I feel like the horror genre leans into the gore, and I don’t know that that’s where. My book lives, I think, I think the gothic kind of sense of imminent doom, pervading, you know, every page is definitely something I wanna lead into.So, so I think gothic is, is [00:08:00] relevant, historic, gothic, and ultimately it is a murder mystery. And so who, and so, and so solving that mystery is the protagonist’s kind of ultimate mission.Jennie: Right. So the, the sort of moodiness of the world and, and something, yeah. The dread, uh, that’s out there. Right. Um, which fits really nicely, uh, with what you’re doing.Okay. So what’s the revelation?Andrew: So it came from the question that you asked me last or two weeks ago now. Um, and one that I’ve been asking myself, which is. Are vampires part of the public consciousness in this world that I’m building. And for a long time I’ve been saying, no, no, no, no. They’re not part, they’re still, they’re still a secret society.They’re still a secret community. They’re still a secret species. They’re, they’re, and nobody knows about them. And, and anyone who talks about vampires is seen as being a [00:09:00] lunatic. Um. And I was realizing, and, and as you probably saw in the, in, in the, in the document, I was, I, I was trying to explore both, both possibilities.There’s a possibility where, where the public understands vampire exists and then there’s a, a, a possibility where that it doesn’t, where they don’t understand they exist. And I’ve been leaning towards maintaining the secrecy of vampires among the public. And I think the reason I’ve been doing that, it ties back, ties into what we were just talking about in that I was, I saw that creating like a whole vampire society that, uh, that human, that human society has been interacting with for a number of years, it felt like a distraction from the primary.From the primary plot, but I’ve been struggling because it does offer some really nice motivation for my murderer.Jennie: Yeah. [00:10:00]Andrew: SoJennie: you’ve been flip flopping back and forth in your mind.Andrew: I’ve been flip flopping back and forth in my mind until last night. And I was, I was reading, I was reading some of your comments, uh, on my document and I was like, why am I stuck on this?Why am I hung up on this? Why can’t I make a decision about this? Um, and it’s because. I was writing small, I was trying to keep it, you know, this is something I could manage. Like I was trying to keep it, I was trying to keep it like manageable. I was trying to keep it, I, I don’t know. I was trying to give my, I was trying to like pen myself in, I guess, and lean.More heavily on the work of Stoker. And it’s like he’s already done his work. He’s already So the, so the, the, the, the revelation I said he’s already done his work. He’s already created his book. Mine is a different book. Mine is, is, uh, a different [00:11:00] world and like. As we have been saying, I need to write big, so I need to embrace the big.And so that gonna, that’s gonna mean creating more characters. That’s going to mean creating, uh, more exposition. That’s going to mean creating, um, more interactions between these communities. Creating a lot more than I had initially been thinking about. I feel like my original idea was a nice idea. You know, I’m, and I’m using air quotes with a nice idea, but like, I feel like this is now.Becoming a novel by, by choosing to, by choosing to go big here.Jennie: Well, you’re, you make me like actually wanna cry because of happiness, because you’ve obviously been listening to the right. Big episodes and Yes. That whole um, thing and winter blueprint, um, listening to me hammer away at. Uh, [00:12:00] that this is all we have.This is all a writer has, is what is in their heart and mind mm-hmm. And comes from their experiences and interests. And it is so crazy how we shy away from that. We tamp it down, we hide from it, all the things because it’s, it’s terrifying in many ways. And for you to just get that and in both. The conversations we’ve had this morning already, like, like the, um, you were afraid.Yeah. Afraid of your own creation, which is actually very sort of, I guess that’s more, um, well, more Frankenstein, more Frankenstein than Dracula, but, but you know, it is like the monster of our own creation. Mm-hmm. You know, like, oh, I wanna write this book. There’s a kind of dread in just even saying that.Yeah. And then, oh, I [00:13:00] wanna write this book andRight.Jennie: And that question of am I up to it? Am I capable of, it lies at the heart of. So many problems that we make for ourselves because, you know, we tell ourselves, no, I couldn’t do that or that Yeah, that’s too, I just, I, you know, that’s for somebody else, or I, I’ll keep it small, I’ll keep it mm-hmm.Attached to this other, I’ll keep it easy. That was what mm-hmm. You know, and, and what you’re saying is, okay, now I’m gonna. I’m gonna write the book I wanna write.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Oh man, that’s so big. So that,Andrew: yeah, that was my, that was my big revelation last night as I was, ‘cause I still didn’t have an answer for you on that question as late as last night.And I was like, I don’t know what to say. And then I was like, why is this heart so hard for me? And so that was, that was, that was really nice to kind of make that, find that understanding and that gave me peace and like. I started, I started just throwing words on the page [00:14:00] last night about what that meant.Um, what that will mean for the story, what that will mean for the, for the characters. So,Jennie: well, I’m gonna write down this question ‘cause I wanna, I wanna explore that more. Why is this so hard for me? That’s such a good question because what I was doing last night after I wrote that note to you was I did a whole pro con thing.You know, pro, um, the vampires are here and present and known, or, you know, be, they’re not like, you know? Mm-hmm. Or even c nobody knows if they’re real or, you know, like I was trying to parse out what do I have to do to guide Andrew toward. A decision. So I was thinking more what’s gonna prompt your brain to decide, and your question, why is this so hard for [00:15:00] me is really what the right question is instead of the pro con list.So that is brilliant. Um, I’m, I’m writing down so good. Um.Andrew: Well, thank you for pushing me.Jennie: Oh, well that’s my job. So, um, it’s fun. I mean, it’s fun. And what’s interesting, particularly with this project is as we know, I don’t know Dracula, I don’t read a lot of horror. And so I’m, I am, I am reacting to you more than this story, you know?So that was, that was why, how am I gonna get Andrew to. Figure this out. I have absolutely no, you know, opinion or, or you know, um, any reason why we choose one or the other. Uh, sure. You know, it’s really what you want. So once you decide that, then does that help with. Other open questions? [00:16:00] Does it sort of have a domino effect in your mind on some of the other things?Andrew: I think it, yeah, it, yeah, I think it’s gonna affect, I mean, it’s gonna affect, so it’s gonna affect the whole tenor of the book. Um, I think it, it’s, it’s going to change the motivations of so many other characters. It’s going to change. The relationship between, um, uh, between all of the characters. Um, it’s going to change the politics of the moment inside this world.Um, and it’s going to kind of raise the stakes, uh, a little bit more. And I think in, in, in another way, it’s going to make it resonate more with a modern audience. Um,Jennie: Ooh. Say more. Why do you think that?Andrew: Well, I think, uh, I think. Just because the vampires are no longer a secret, uh, society, just because they are, um, part of the public zeitgeist, that doesn’t mean they are accepted by the public.Um, and so there’s going to be [00:17:00] misunderstanding and fear, um, and uh, and violence all around this, uh, group of individuals, which I think. Again, as I, as I said, resonates with, with, with modern, with a modern audience.Jennie: Wow. That’s, that’s awesome. Um, so I’m also curious, one of the questions I had, you did some work around a Brianna’s mother whomm-hmm.Jennie: Died in childbirth, giving birth to her. Mm-hmm. And, um. She was involved in this whole previous generation’s relationship to the vampire hunting andmm-hmm.Jennie: Um, all of that. And it, it’s been a little vague. Um, we’ve talked about it a little, but it sounds like that is becoming more of a connection for, for two things, both for a [00:18:00] Adrianna’s motivation, um.To, to solve these murders, but also her connection to the suffragette movement, which prior to this draft, I kept feeling a little bit like it was shoehorned in there, likemm-hmm.Jennie: Oh, there’s this vampire story and it’s London and it’s at this time, and there’s this young woman in suffragette. You know, and, and now that small change really locks the, the suffragette movement into Aub Brianna’s world and life.Um, so what do you now know about the mother that feels new or, um, that you’ve pinned down more because of these thoughts?Andrew: I’m still fleshing that out. But let me, let me say, one of the reasons I think that the suffragette movement element of the book feels a little tacked on is I have not [00:19:00] yet done my research there.And so it’s like, that’s a really, that’s a, that’s a glaring, that’s a glaring hole right now that I need to fill with more research. I’ve been doing a lot of vampire research now. Um, and, but I need to switch. I need to switch tax and start and start doing more, uh, suffrage, uh, research. Um, but that said, yeah, I think.A Brianna’s mother, Mina, um, was involved briefly in the suffrage movement because she dies or does she? And um, and, and I think she continues, she continues to play a role in the suffrage suffrage movement. What. What I’ve been grappling with now is how much of that does abriana know how much of that has her father told her?And I could see that being another point of contention between the two of them. If she discovers later that this was [00:20:00] another, another piece of information that was, that was hidden from her. And so,Jennie: Ooh, that’s so good. It’s so good. This, this young, yeah, this young woman. All these things stacked up against her that she, yeah.Sort of knows about or maybe suspects. Um, right. So you’re right. The work is, there’s always in any story who, the question of who knows what, when. Mm-hmm. I mean, particularly in a mystery or thriller, obviously.Andrew: Right.Jennie: Yeah. But who knows what, when, you know, can. Change who you choose to be your narrator. Who, who has right point of view, um, who gets point of view in the story.Uh, you know, do we go to a chapter in somebody’s point of view? You know, all of those, all of those questions hang on. This idea of who knows what went. So, you as the author, are the first person that has to know. Everything. Right. And [00:21:00] then choose to, you know, how like, like putting little breadcrumbs or, you know, planting little seeds, ummm-hmm.Jennie: That you have to manage that material. Um, so that’s a big question. And here’s a question. Do you think you need those answers before you can pin the whole story down, or do you feel like. You can pin the plot down and that that is, gives more texture, more, more to a Adriana’s motivation. Maybe it’ll move certain scenes about her discovery of certain things, but do you, what do you feel about that research?Andrew: About the suffrage research they needJennie: to do? Yeah, yeah,Andrew: yeah. I think it’s going to get, I think it’s gonna open avenues for me. To identify what Mina’s role was, what her mother, what, what breanna’s mother’s role was in the suffrage suffragette movement. [00:22:00] Who some of the players were, who some of the, some of the larger names, the, some of the larger, um, protesters and advocates for it were.Because the, you know, being a historical novel, I do want to incorporate some historical figures, which I, I think, um, is always a kind of a fun element of, of, of a novel. And so being able to incorporate some of that, I think will lay out a lot of avenues for a Brianna’s story arc.Jennie: So I just wanna point out for our listeners that what is happening here, um, is that every question we ask or we pose.Is work, right? So some of it is, you know, work of walking the dog and thinking and saying, well, I don’t know. Or Why don’t I now? Or why is this hard for me? Or, uh, or, you know, all of that. And then now we’re talking about. This question is work, um, figuring out research and, you know, at every turn it’s, [00:23:00] when you do the thing that you wanna do, when you really lean into that, it, it gets harder.I mean, you’re making it harder for yourself. So,yeah,Jennie: I just wanna point that out. ‘cause it, it’s so interesting here as this is unfolding, um, that, that, that is just a, a truth. And the other thing I wanna point out is. Where this story started is where every story starts, which is you have this idea, it’s a really cool idea.You have this sense of a plot. And, and in some ways, that very central idea of the plot is never gonna change. No matter what you do to this book, it’s, it’s a, mm-hmm. It’s a murder, you know, there’s murders and this young woman’s gonna solve it, so. Mm-hmm. Like, that plot’s not changing, but the, where it started was.These kind of card work cutout characters, kind of placeholder characters. And if you leave it at that, you can see where that would go, you know? Mm-hmm. It’s like, [00:24:00] oh, mother died in childbirth. Of course child’s motivated to, you know, something. Um, or Oh, distant and emotional dad, you know, you sort of start, start there.But now by understanding. The whole life that her mother lived and the whole role that she played, and is she even dead or not? You know, like huge, huge questions. Yeah. Make the mother a fully fleshed out 3D character. You know, that’s where you’re gonna go. And then you can see how that will make a Brianna.A more fully fleshed out 3D character. So instead of, instead of the tropes or the expected things, there’s gonna be these nuances to it andmm-hmm.Jennie: Um, specific things. And then your question of what, how much does she know and, and what does she find out? [00:25:00] Um, there’s gonna be plot points that come from that.Right. You know? Uh, do you have a sense. At this point, are there letters, are there diaries? Is there a friend who hasn’t spoken? Like is there some source of information in your mind that Abriana might encounter?Andrew: Yes. And I think, and, and I think there are a couple of different sources. I think, I think her mother Mina will have had diaries, um, and potentially letters.I think also Van Helsing will also certainly have papers. Um. And letters. Um, and, uh, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a prop. He, when he dies, he bequeaths to abriana his Gladstone bag. Um, and I think there’s going to be some sort of revelatory piece of information in the Gladstone bag, and I haven’t figured [00:26:00] out what that piece of information is.So,Jennie: is that black bag that doctors hadAndrew: that doctors carry around? Yeah. That the old time, that old, that old timey doctors carry?Jennie: Yeah. Why was it ca called that?Andrew: You know, that’s a good, that’s a good question. I don’t know where, uh, what the etymology for, for, for the Gladstone bag is. I don’t know why that is.Jennie: Interesting. So that’s like a toolbox basically. Yeah. It’s filled, filled with things and,Outro: yeah. Yeah.Jennie: Uh, that’s cool. That’s cool. Um, that, I love that. So this is a silly thing. I was so confused. And I know you told me this, um, but that there’s a character, John Seward, who’s a character from Dracula. Mm-hmm.And Abriana refers to him as her uncle, but he’s not her uncle. Correct. But the reason I continue to be confused is that her dad’s name is also JohnAndrew: Jonathan. Yeah.Jennie: Jonathan.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Does it have to [00:27:00] be or is that just like, oh, Jennie, come on. Surely the reader can handle a John and a Jonathan.Andrew: Well, I mean, no, that’s a legitimate question because, um, can they, um, especially if we’ve got two characters named Abraham and Abriana, right?And so like, and so now I, I, I’ve been struggling with that too. I think I’ve been, I’ve been trying to carry forward some of, some of the characters from Dracula. I think I like the character of Seward because he is a protege of Van Helsing, but perhaps the protege bit is important and not the actual name of the person.So maybe it’s another character that I’ve, that I’m introducing here who was a protege of Van Helsing.Jennie: Oh. But see, I think that’s where you get into. So your ideal reader you’ve established may not know Dracula right. Inside and out. Right. But you will have a lot [00:28:00] of readers who do.Yes.Jennie: And there is a world of people who really love this stuff and who really.Right. You know, and if you were to change an actual charactermm-hmm.Jennie: And give it, give him a different name or a different whatever, people will come after you.Yeah. People will be obsessed.Jennie: And that’s fine. Right. Butyeah.Jennie: Is, is that one of the things that could be in the book that those readers. That would delight those readers.Andrew: Right. I like, I feel like there are a lot of ways I can leave Easter eggs for Dracula fans.Jennie: Yeah.Andrew: Um, that aren’t, that aren’t germane to understanding the plot of the motivations of the characters, but that, like a Dracula fan will appreciate, oh, I see what you did there. That was a nice touch. Um,Jennie: and soAndrew: I,Jennie: oh, I think they, they’re gonna love that andAndrew: Yeah.Yeah.Jennie: You know, there’s also then. This is just where my brain goes in terms of marketing. There’s also then a whole [00:29:00] thing of, you know, a connection to a literary, uh, to literature readers, which could potentially be students and scholars and, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: So I don’t, I don’t think you should so quickly dismiss.John Stewart, but it’s a Adrianna’s father being named Jonathan, I was wondering about.Andrew: Mm-hmm. Okay.Jennie: And, and you do not have to care that Jennie can’t keep him straight. Uh, I’m, I’m 62. My brain doesn’t work the same way it used to, but I can’t tell you the number of times. I’m like, wait. Was that like I wasAndrew: right.Jennie: Really snagging on that. So, um, just a point of information.Andrew: Gotcha, gotcha. No, it’s worth thinking about though. It’s worth thinking about. But I, I had a, I had a question for you.Jennie: Yeah.Andrew: If now is an appropriate time to ask it.Jennie: Ask it. [00:30:00] Yeah.Andrew: I’ve been, I’ve been spending a lot of brain power on the question of POV.Jennie: Yeah,Andrew: and I’ve been go like, and going back and forth about whether this is going to be a single POV, uh, and Abriana is, Abriana is our narrator, or if it’s more third person omniscient, or maybe this is a dual POV. And I think most recently I’ve been thinking this is a dual POV between Abriana and her namesake Van Helsing, and like.Which is also create some time traveling, uh, mechanisms because we’ll be, we’ll be talk, he’ll be talking about his experiences, uh, before Abriana was born and as she, as she’s a child, and she’ll be talking about her experiences as a young woman. And so, but now as we’re talking about a Adrianna’s mother, I’m more, I’m wondering like, do I want the dual POV to between, between Abriana and her mother?Um. What question should I [00:31:00] be considering to help me make that decision?Jennie: Uh, well this is a huge question, Andrew. Um, there, I feel like you just named so many excellent structural ways forward, right? And the question of what do you ask yourself? You’re asking such good questions, like what do you ask yourself to make that decision?And. I’m gonna, my answer’s gonna be something really unsatisfying in many ways because it’s, you gotta go back to your why, why are you writing the story? Mm-hmm. Okay. Why does it matter to you? Mm-hmm. What is your point? Who do you, who do you want to speak to? Uh, those fundamental questions are going to inform the POV because if you, well, I know you originally had an idea about the brother.Um, her brother being a narrator, and you didn’t mention him this time, you mentioned No, [00:32:00] the mom. So a story in which the mom and daughter are narrating and the mom and they’re never going to meet.Mm-hmm.Jennie: Those two people in, I don’t think, well, no, that’s not true. Uh, uh, an unden person could meet a, a human walking the earth, um, right.Andrew: And that may be, that may be part of the climax.Jennie: Yeah. SoAndrew: of the novel. ButJennie: that, um, that a mother daughter who, who don’t think that they can, maybe the daughter doesn’t think that they will ever meet, you know, that’s a real particular. Kind of a story. Mm-hmm. So I do think, going back to your why, why do I care about this?Why, you know, I, I asked you in our, our initial conversation, you know, you’re, you’re a man. You’re writing about [00:33:00] suffragettes, you’re writing about a woman protagonist, a young woman, protagonist, and you talked a lot about your sister.Mm-hmm.Jennie: Understanding those motivations and interests and passions because that mother-daughter story will carry a certain kind of weight.The, if we think of the, the Van Haling being a narrator, that taps into what we were talking about before. How connected is your story to that lineage ofright,Jennie: of that one. ‘cause now you’re. Not only having Bram Stoker’s character, you’re giving that character a POV voice. Mm-hmm. Which is another level of connection to that mm-hmm.Literary lineage. Mm-hmm. Um, so that would take it in a different, you can see how that would take it in a really different direction. So POV is, [00:34:00] you know, in some stories it’s quite. Instant. Um, you just sort of know, um, in other stories it’s not, and this one, it, it is not. Um mm-hmm. I think it’s, it’s clear Abriana is your protagonist.It’s her our core following. Mm-hmm. It’s her. Transformation. We’re interested in her, uh, solving the murder, her understanding her legacy, her coming into her own power. Those are the things we want to see resolved. Um, so whether or not she is a POV though, because there’s a, then there’s, there’s third person.Mm-hmm. I mean, third person has different, you know, there’s different permutations of it. There’s third person close mm-hmm. Which is sort of functions in some ways, like first person, because in third person close, you don’t go into anybody else’s head. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I sometimes don’t understand why, [00:35:00] why that is even a choice.Then I read books that do it, that work beautifully, and it’s like, oh, okay. You know? So, uh, you know, everything can be a choice, but, um, you know, so we know that she’s at the center. So then the question I’m circling around to answering your question, how do you help yourself solve this? What other voices would amplify?Mm-hmm.Jennie: Her transformation, that’s really what it is, is it’s her story. You know, the, the mother, POV would take it in one direction. Van Helsing would take it in a different mm-hmm. Uh, third person where we’re,I don’t know, a third person narrator that goes back in time feels odd to me.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: I think if it’s, and I’m just talking out loud here. I think if it’s third person, it, it, we could go into all the heads of everybody. Walking the earth [00:36:00] right now. But I feel like if you go into someone you can see I’m betraying my not understanding Vampire vampires very well.They never die, right?Andrew: Yes. They’re undead.Jennie: They never die. So. Okay, so I think, ignore what I just said, A third person, omniscient narrator, could go into their heads as well. Um, right. And go back in time as well. But your time travel, like, like actually having that, that’s a really different story, so.Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, how you’re going to answer is you’re gonna sit with that question of what is gonna make a adrianna’s story resonate the most at that end, right? What, mm-hmm. What knowing is going to, to amplify that the most. And then the second thing to ask yourself, and you might need to do a little more work, uh, in order to answer [00:37:00] this once you get the inside outline done.Looking at the key scenes. Yeah, you may just see, oh, there is no way that this is gonna work in a certain POV, or I have to have this other POVI can’t convey. I can’t go to that scene. I have to go to that scene. Or alternatively a scene that you can’t go to. Then you think, alright, how will I get this?Into How do I convey this? I’m thinking of that. Um. You know, there’s so many, uh, there’s so many, uh, what’s the word I’m looking for? I’m thinking of JK Rowling and Harry Potter and all the things that she did, you know, the mirror Yeah. That shows Harry or his parents and the pen sea that, you know, gets the memories outta somebody’s head.Like all these, um mm-hmm. Mechanical ways Yeah. Of show, showing us what happened.Yeah. [00:38:00]Jennie: Back, back in the day. You know, that’s a particularly kind of story with particularly kind of magic. But there, there, you don’t know. You might have this, they’re devices.Yeah,Jennie: that’s the word I was looking for. Devices, yes.That you might have one or two scenes, it’s like, do I need a whole POV just to convey these scenes or is there another way I could get this information in? So it’s two parts, it’s both. Um, I would say heart a heart. A heart-centered thing. What, what do I want? What will amplify my why and my point the most?What, what I think would be interesting and fun to write the question of, um, then Helsing, do I want to embrace that? Mm-hmm. For some reason I’m thinking of that, um, novel, um, the Hillary Clinton alternative history novel. Um. Called Rodham, uh oh, by, [00:39:00] is it Curtis Sittenfeld, I think. Um, Rodham, but so courageous and daring.She, yeah, she imagines, um, what would have happened had, had Hillary not married Bill, and it follows the, their lives and their meeting and their love story and all this whole thing, which he just chooses not to marry him. And, you know, like. That’s a certain kind of bravery as an author to, to take that sort of a character.And you’d be, you’d be doing that. So do you, do I wanna do that? So it’s all those hard questions and then there’s plot questions, so Right. I’m gonna say that for the next, your next bit of homework. Mm-hmm. Um. Is to, I would go to the inside outline and start trying to pin this plot down and noodling around with it.And we know that it’s going to change based on your research. Mm-hmm. Based on the fact that it always changes. [00:40:00] Um, but just noodle around with it and try it from different POVs. See, see what happens. You know? Take, take the, um, this is the reason, by the way, listeners, why I insist that the insight outline at the beginning is only three pages because Andrew can do one that is a Briana’s, POV only.What does that look like? Uh, AA and her mom, what does that look like? Abriana and um. Van health sink, what does that look like? Uh, third person, what does that look like? You could do four, three page outlines and it’s not gonna kill you. Right. Right. You could just to sort of get a feel for it, and I promise you mm-hmm.That what’s gonna happen is one of ‘em is gonna feel more alive.Andrew: Right.Jennie: So that’s the sortAndrew: of, okay,Jennie: unsatisfying [00:41:00] answer is one of them is gonna feel more alive. So you’re gonna start with your why. Start with your point. Try to sit with that, then try those things on. One of them’s gonna feel more alive.Okay.Andrew: So you’re not just gonna tell me which POVs to use then?Jennie: No, it’sAndrew: not. That’s not how thisJennie: works. I know, it’s such a bummer. Um. I mean, it’s such a, such an important question and people often skim past it, butAndrew: mm-hmm.Jennie: You know, take, I think it’s the time, like dig, dig into the outline with the intention mm-hmm.Of landing on POV. How about, how about that for your homework?Andrew: Okay. That sounds good. That sounds good. I can do that.Jennie: Okay. Well, I can’t wait to hear how it goes. And for our listeners. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.Outro: The hashtag am [00:42:00] Writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

After ten years of the #amwriting podcast, KJ, Jess, and Sarina are marking a milestone—and a transition. In this episode, the longtime hosts reflect on what the writing world looked like when the show began and share their best advice for writers trying to do meaningful work. They also pass the microphone to Jennie, who will carry the podcast into its next chapter.Moving forward, Jennie will keep the show focused on helping writers do their best work and make smart decisions about their writing lives. Expect familiar features and new conversations, including Write Big solo episodes, Book Lab breakdowns of listener submissions, coaching sessions with writers across genres, and Margin Notes exploring the thinking behind creative choices. The mission remains the same: helping writers play big in their writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.KJ: Hey everyone. I’m kj and you are listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.So today is a big day. We’re we’reJess: big day.KJ: Yeah. We’re celebrating the 10th year of the hashtag am writing podcast, which I have to say is officially the longest I’ve been able to sustain any job-like thing. Um, and we’re announcing that we’re going in a new direction. So this is really cool. After a decade of talking to y’all, um, Jess and I and then [00:01:00] Sarina, who is at minus a decade. I don’t wanna, um, have decided to step back and hand over the reins to Jennie.Jess: YeahJennie: It is, it is such a big milestone and such a big deal. And before we. Actually say goodbye to the three of you. I mean, it’s not forever. You’re coming back as guests, all of you, all the time, hopefully.KJ: Oh, heck yes. Absolutely. You, you, you and I have already planned all the things, so don’t get too excited and, and weepy here folks, but things are just, things are gonna be. New and fresh and more interesting and, uh, more craft filled and more inspirational. When I need inspiration to write, I look for one of our episodes.That’s Jennie. So I think this is gonna be, this is gonna be great.Jennie: I think it’s gonna be great too. But before we actually say goodbye, I mean, 10. Is a long time and I thought it would be fun to ask you all what it was like 10 [00:02:00] years ago when you started, and Sarina 10 minus whatever the time is, but what was the writing landscape like as a whole maybe for you, and then all this wisdom, all these years that you’ve shared.What’s, what’s the thing that sticks in your head the most is what you would want to leave with, with the listeners, what is the your best piece of writing advice from all of this time? So. Jess, why don’t you start? You’re the og.Jess: Well, I, I definitely wanted to start. For those people who have not been around since the very beginning, you have to understand that it’s really horrifying when people say they go back and like start from the beginning because, um, and we’ll be posting pictures in the show notes.I have a ton of pictures throughout the years, but we originally, um, we, we would go into this little, I had a tiny, tiny house and we would go into the eve space off of my daughter’s room. And it was raw insulation with a light bulb, and we sat on the floor and it was [00:03:00] like. Maybe at the tallest point, maybe four feet high, so you had to kind of crawl in.And I have a picture of us, um, podcasting from inside there. And it was, and it was very hot in the summer. It would get very, very hot. My house did not have air conditioning and um. But it was delightful and it was this thing that we had talked about doing for such a long time, and I was so proud of us.And mainly it was kj. KJ was the one who said, we’re not gonna talk about this anymore, we’re just gonna do it. So she got us into gear and just brought her stuff over to my house in her basket and said, let’s go. Let’s do it. And we bought microphones and everything and it was. It was a big new adventure.And if you had said, then, how long do you think this is gonna last? I don’t know that I would’ve said 10 years. But there’s, you know, then Sarina came in and, and Sarina has, has been a part of this as a guest since the very beginning too. And a couple of things that I wanted to share were that one time Sarina and KJ and I, uh, were doing a [00:04:00] double, a double header episode and I forgot to hit record for both of them.And so. We did this incredibly fun, very long episode, broken into two pieces that, um, it went off into the ether and. I did learn from that. And then at the same time, by the time we were sort of on our game enough to be able to really interview people, we went up to Maine to interview Richard Russo and we went to record at his daughter’s wonderful bookstore in Portland, Maine.And um, I had three modes of recording. I had, um. Two microphones and I had a handheld digital thing that I had on the table between us and, um, mode one failed and mode two failed. And so the only thing we had was, you know, our little digital handheld on the table in between us. So. There’s a lot of stuff like that.There was the moment I got to text KJ and tell her that we were getting David [00:05:00] Sedaris, there was the day she emailed me to tell me that we were getting Anna Quinlan. You know, and I just so many cool things that, um. It makes me so happy that we’ve produced something good out of all of that. And one last thing.The, the, the thing that I think I’ve learned the most is there is no one right way to do this. That every single time I hear about, like whether it’s the, you have to write, writer write every day, you have to write every day, or you have to write in a certain way, or you have to write in a certain place, or you have to write with the door closed, or you have to write with the door open, all of those things.Um, none of those are rules. None of them are rules. They’re things that people do and I’m really glad that I’ve had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people about all the different ways they do it.Jennie: That’s amazing. Um, kj, do you remember this, uh, light bulb and no insulation time? KJ: Oh yeah. I don’t remember the time you didn’t record particularly just ‘cause it happened more than once. And [00:06:00] the other thing I would throw in is that the more famous, the guest, the. Less interesting. They were, it was almostKJ: always true. Jess: It wasn them. It was, yeah. I think we got all jacked up about like, I don’t know. It just,Jess: I don’t know.Wasn David Sari’s advice to young writers was the worst.KJ: Yeah. It advice really wasJess: anyone has ever given, itKJ: was,Jess: yeah, a writer. He said, don’t submit your work. Don’t ask. Don’t try to get you, wait for people to read it. Wait for people to ask you if they can read it.KJ: Yeah,Jess: that’s which this, this is, KJ: this worked for him. He is an NF one and it will not work for you.Jess: Right. Yeah, I think thatKJ: my favorite, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna lay it out there. I’m not even gonna put any caveats on that. That won’t work.Jess It won’t work.KJ: No. I think it’s always been the most fun when we get in deep into the craft and anytime someone is too practiced with their answers or it’s the same answer they’ve given a million times.You’re [00:07:00] right. It was cold and it was, um, it just wasn’t good.Sarina: Yeah. So the more fun people were always the people who were really in it with us.KJ: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: So, Sarina, do you know when you came in, do you know what the, the n minus number is?Sarina: No, because I was a guest star even before we got out of the, the, um, kgs closet.It’s true. It’s true.KJ: One of those not recorded episodes was recorded in the eve space. That’s true. We had, we roped during fairly early.Jennie: Yeah. In that 10 years, you’ve probably written more. More than, well, how many books have you written in that time? Sarina, I mean,Sarina: um, 50. At 50 50 ish.Jennie: That’s crazy. That’s crazy. So what do you know now that you didn’t know then?Sarina: Oh, so much, so much that, like giving advice, you know, I, I [00:08:00] now feel like less qualified to give advice than I did then, you know how that goes. Like, the job gets harder, not easier. I have a, a good working vocabulary for why, but it doesn’t make me feel like anybody’s, you know, special savior.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. What do you remember about starting in and the, the, um, all these episodes? What sticks in your mind asSarina: you know? Um, I loved the opportunity to talk to people who I think are fantastic. I also learned that I am not a fantastic interviewer and that, and that, um. That isn’t a skill of mine that I, it’s, there’s so many things, like I’m so busy, I write so many books.I can’t learn to be the interviewer that you deserve. So I only. Did interviews selectively and sometimes they were just so fun. Like, [00:09:00] um, the, the person who broke broke the mold about the interview being interesting, the more famous they are was Emily Henry. ‘cause she was Oh yeah. She was fun to talk to.She was just right there with us and, and ready to have a good time and, and so wise and also so, so nice. And that, that’s really great when you can talk to somebody who’s killing it in your own genre and you know, they’re just so wonderful about it. Um, and then, you know, then we had the odd, very sweaty interview where nothing seems to go according to plan.And I won’t name the author because I do admire this person very much, but they were not. Willing to take any expertise onto themselves. So KJ and I just sweated all the way through this interview trying to get this person to, to tell us KJ: Say something. Say anything.Sarina: Yeah. Tell us how you feel, you know?KJ: Yeah.Sarina: And it could not be done.KJ: Nope.Sarina: So, you know, that one, I, [00:10:00] I will never re-listened to that one, but, um, but I really, what I got out of it, honestly, was spending time with all of you guys, and you teach me things every single day. And another thing about this job is that I find that I have to relearn the best lessons over and over again.And when you are compelled to speak lucidly about your job, you know, a couple of times a month, um, it forces a certain reckoning with your own skill and expertise. Like I might say that I, you know, don’t want to be anybody’s, um, masterclass, but I really do know a lot at this point and, um, every time I talk to you guys and we’d, and we gathered together like this, I always learn something.Jess: I love, I think Sarina is the most amazing explainer and teacher. And so getting to learn, um, especially, you know, in these [00:11:00] recent, uh, nerd Corner Publishing Nerd Corner episodes, it’s been so cool to just learn from her. It’s really, really fun. And, you know, if, if we take it all the way back, like the first, your first romance novels, you know.We’re just coming out when we just, when we started this thing. It’s just been such an incredible journey from there to where we are now. The other thing that’s been really cool is that this podcast has made me really accountable to my goals and to, you know, not that. You guys also do that for me. But saying things out loud in front of other people has always been my, the thing that has saved me, whether that’s about my recovery or, um, you know, whatever it is.Um, people talk to me all the time and say, you know, was it hard to come out publicly about, you know, being an alcoholic? I’m like, absolutely not. It’s what’s kept me sober. And I feel the same way about the writing, that when I talk to, um, the listeners that I, I feel like. Someone may [00:12:00] come along someday and ask how that, uh, that goal of mine is going. And, and I like that.Jennie: Yeah. That’s so good. Kj, what, what are your best memories and, um, best, best advice that you’ve gotten or, or given?KJ Well, you know, spend 10 years, so it is a long time ago, but I do remember the time Jess was riding her dinosaur to my house to record and got hit by a snowplow. Mm-hmm. Um, that was, that was good times.Jess: Yep.KJ: We have Snow Fred Dinosaurs up here. Yep. In New Hampshire. Um, the Sedaris thing that was, that was just funny and also really cool ‘cause I have such deep admiration for, for him, and I’m quite certain that if somehow he ever heard. I, he would not care. We think that was terrible advice.Jess: What’s also really was really funny about that one is this is an only David Sedera sort of situation where, oh Lord, he, he has said very specifically that he, during COVID, he refused.To get Zoom, any [00:13:00] kind of zoom sort of situation. So we had to, we went all the way to Concord to,KJ: this wasn’t Coco COVID, this was before that. No, no, no. I, I know, but I’m saying like, he has, this is not new information. He has said very publicly that he doesn’t do likeJess: Oh, yeah. So he wouldn’t even, even let us have somebody bring him a laptop to his apartment.Right. And set it up for us, which we were like, happy to do, butKJ: Yeah. Yeah. We had to go there.Jess: So he called and yeah, we went to NHPR in Concord and, uh, our, and our wonderful producer Andrew was. Able to get everything connected for us. Um, but it was one of those moments where, you know, we are constantly talking about how to like bend over backwards to get marketing and get people to listen to what we have to say.And yet, even though he puts obstacles in the path of people who want to hear what he has to say, they will gladly jump through those hoops, uh, for him.Jess: Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. I mean, you know, so kind of him to do it.KJ: Yes. Anyway, I mean, that was super funnyJess: and, and I am looking at my wall that [00:14:00] has the postcard, the thank you postcard that he sent us.So when he says he sends thank you notes to everyone, he sends thank you notes to everyone because we got one. And from what I understand, he sends them to every bookseller, every person who drives them everywhere. He sends thank you notes to everyone.Jennie: Wow. That’s what I think of when I think of you, Jess.mThat’s a thing you do too. You’re so good at that. Well, I, I have to say that I have been a listener for this whole time, and the thing that you all brought was. This authenticity, this sense of what it’s really like to do this work. And you all are writing such different things and so accomplished at those things, and your willingness to kind of just open, open it up and share what that looks like with no, you know, varnish over it or, or you know, polished.Just like, this is what it’s really like and this is who we are and this is how it happens, and [00:15:00] that the work gets done in such. Messy circumstances and, um, that lesson and, and that generosity of showing people that that’s true. Which kind of goes to what you were saying, Jess, like there is no way, but, but also just doing the work is the way and.That’s what you have all modeled and continue to model, and obviously,KJ well, that’s what I want people to take away from this. Mm-hmm. Is listen. Okay. We’re joking that 10 years is a long time and 10 years is a long time. It’s a long time to do anything. But also 10 years ago I had one book to my name. And you’ve never heard of it.It was called Reading with Babies, toddlers, and Twos, and it got me all my other jobs. Jess had no books to her name. Mm-hmm. 10 years ago, Sarina Couple not, you know, just, just, just barely getting started. Jennie actually had a ton of books to her name, but that’s, you know, that’s a different story. So here we were.10 years ago sat down and said, [00:16:00] we are gonna do these things. And we did not all, I mean, it wasn’t, nobody came and asked us for it. All of David Saris. Um, nobody had, none of us had instant success. You know, no one called up and said, Hey, can I do this? And like immediately got articles in the New Yorker or whatever.Uh, publishers were not banging down our doors. We. We were banging down theirs and we were all very determined to, um, to make this a professional endeavor. The, the podcast and the writing and the books and all of it. And so I guess what I’m saying is I don’t know where you are listener, but wherever you wanna be in 10 years.Uh, you know, maybe you won’t get exactly there. I wouldn’t say any of us has gotten exactly there ‘cause we’re not done. But still, we came a long way in 10 years and I would like to see other people, [00:17:00] um, sit down and actually do the thing so you can go to the place.Jess: That’s been one of the big joys, I think, also of this podcast is seeing other people’s work happen.Like hearing from listeners that, oh my gosh, I hadn’t started my book. I was trying to get motivated to start my book, and then I created this proposal and now the book is coming out, and that’s, I, I, I just, I can’t, I can hardly wrap my brain around that. Um, it’s been a really amazing progression and the, the group of people that have sort of coalesced around listening to this podcast and getting in, in touch, some of them have become friends and that’s been really amazing too.Sarina: I hope what some people will take away from this, um, is that very few people who do what we do are truly trained for it. You know, I don’t have an MFAI don’t KJ and just don’t have journalism degrees. They have law degrees instead. But, um, you can, you can [00:18:00] do this on the job training. That’s what we did.That’s what you listened to us do. And I’m reminded of that, um, quote by El Doctoral. You know, writing a book is like driving at night with the headlights on. You can. You can’t see the whole distance, um, but you can still get to your destination. And there was this Time when KJ and I were debating this quote on this podcast and KJ said, yeah, but the last time we went driving at night, we almost hit a bunny.And it was true. And I think that what might be the, one of the times I laughed the hardest on this podcast.Jess: You know, it’s also interesting, I was thinking that, um, you know how I said that there isn’t one way to do things, and even the way that we do things has evolved over time and like Sarina has learned how to, has become a coffee shop writer and has learned how to write in other places.And I’ve learned how to write in other places and I never used to be able to do that. Um, [00:19:00] so how we get the work done really has. Uh, evolved with the needs of what’s going on around us and what our career needs from us, and, and that’s been really pleasant. Pleasant to watch too.Jennie: Well, it’s been an honor to listen to you all and to be, uh, working alongside you.And I am, I’m thrilled to be carrying the show forward. I have lots of big ideas to bring to these episodes To continue to center the writer and the writing and getting the work done in authentic conversations about what it takes, both from a craft perspective and a mindset perspective. So I’ll be reaching out soon for submissions to book Lab because that’s gonna continue with a twist and I will be letting you know about what’s coming. Um, for sure. New episodes with our producer Andrew, who’s stepped out from behind the mic, um, as you heard last week. And I’ll be continuing to coach him forward, which will be really [00:20:00] fun. So lots of good stuff coming and I appreciate your ongoing support and I appreciate.Getting you to stand on the shoulders of these three incredible writers and entrepreneurs and thinkers and friends, and, um, thank you all.KJ Thank you. I’m just so glad. Thank you guys to see this, uh, keep going and to become a little bit more of a passenger. I have very much been the driver for the past few years.Um, Jess had her turn in the, in the driving seat and Sarina said from day one, no, no, I am buddy, humble guest. So, um, I’m so thrilled that you’re taking over and I am excited to listen when I am not part of it, and to also continue to be part of it. Yay. Thank you guys.Jennie: Thank you all so, so much.Hey, why don’t you, uh, why don’t you take us out?KJ No, no. Jess has to take us out. It’s cool. That’s the tradition.Jess: Alright. And actually coming up with our, this little bit of the show happened in the eve space, so [00:21:00] it’s a very. Yeah, that’s a sentimental phrase for me too. So until next week, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.Jess: The hashtag am writing podcast. Is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie Nash launches a brand-new Hot Seat Coaching series on the podcast—real, on-air coaching sessions where listeners get to hear a story develop in real time.In the first episode, Jennie brings #amwriting podcast producer Andrew Parrella out from behind the microphone as he begins work on his first novel. Fresh off completing the Blueprint challenge, Andrew shares his gothic horror premise: a Dracula-inspired story set in 1920s London, where Abriana Harker—the daughter of Mina Harker—faces a string of mysterious deaths unfolding against the backdrop of the suffrage movement.Jennie and Andrew pressure-test the blueprint together, refining the novel’s central point, exploring how Van Helsing’s legacy shapes the world of the story, and identifying ways to strengthen Abriana’s role so the plot is driven by her choices. Andrew leaves with clear next steps—and this is just the beginning: he’ll return in future episodes as Jennie continues coaching him through the process of developing the novel.You can connect with Andrew via his website AndrewParrella.com#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life. Love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. Hi, I’m Jenny Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast.This is something new. It’s a hot seat coaching episode where we’re gonna work through a real challenge in real time with a real writer. And today. I’m joined by a really special guest. His name is Andrew Perella, and he has been the producer of this podcast for many, many years and is stepping out from behind the microphone to write his first novel.Andrew participated in the Winter Blueprint challenge that we recently completed. Which is to say he answered all 14 of the blueprint questions during our challenge and, and produced a [00:01:00] finished blueprint. And so I wanted to get on with him and talk about what do we do next? How do we go from there to the next thing?And he agreed to do that to help show our listeners how it goes. And I’m so excited about it because. He just did incredible work and also has so much work to go, so hopefully we’re gonna get to, we’re gonna get to follow Andrew as he does this for a few episodes and bring you along on the journey. So welcome Andrew from Behind the Microphone.Andrew: So much work to go. Thank you, Jenny. I’m really excited to be here.Jennie: So Andrew is, has a long career in public radio and is a producer of podcast for many people and is a storytelling guy, you know, as well as a sound guy. So this is, this is a big move. I feel like this is a right big move for you for sure, for deciding.This is the time to embrace the fact that you wanna do this thing. Does it [00:02:00] feel like that to you?Andrew: It, it feels like a right big move for me that I’m kind of prioritizing now this writing project for me. I’m prioritizing my project, um, over, over, uh, the projects of others whom, whom I help with projects.Yeah. So this is a big, big a right big moment for me.Jennie: It is totally a riping moment and. You’re in the hot seat personal coaching, which I, I really appreciate you being willing to do So, um, where we stand today is, as I said, you, you finished the blueprint, you did all the work, you did the thing. So I’m just curious to sort of check in.How do you feel? Do you feel like that’s an accomplishment? Do you feel some momentum? Like, what, where are you feeling, what are you feeling? Um,Andrew: I, I feel like it is a, a really big accomplishment because as we were working through the blueprint, I was getting feedback, uh, from you and KJ Dium about, uh, about, uh, how I was, how I was creating my [00:03:00] blueprint.It got me, it forced me to think about the book in some very real terms, in ways that I hadn’t yet, and in ways that, you know, I had been kind of thinking about the book in more abstract notions. Um, and like this was putting pen to paper, uh, on so many things to think about, you know, beyond the, beyond the simple plot structure.Um, and I realized as I was going through this. How much I hadn’t yet considered, and I think this helped to show me where the holes in my story were. Um. And he, even, even as I’ve finished, quote unquote, finished the blueprint, it’s like I finished one inter iteration of it and like already the story has changed since I first started work on the blueprint.And so already I know I gotta go back and start reiterating on, on, on this, uh, uh, as we go along here.Jennie: Yeah. I mean, and that’s the point, right? Yeah. Is the whole point is this is a tool that reveals. [00:04:00] What’s working and what’s not working? Is this what I want? Does this reflect my vision? And you get to, to play with that wet clay of the idea.So that’s really what what we’re doing. But the reason that I thought you’d be such a good candidate for coaching live in this way is your story. It really hangs together in so many ways. It’s so great in so many ways and it, it would be easy to feel like, oh, I’m, I’m not that far. I got this. I could, I could start right?I can start writing. Yeah. But I hope, I hope what we’re gonna show is, is really pushing yourself to answer core questions is gonna just make it so much stronger.Andrew: Absolutely.Jennie: So, um, all that being said, do you. What do you think the best way to share what you’re writing with our listeners is? Do you think reading your book jacket copy feels good or do you wanna just say it out [00:05:00] loud?Andrew: Um, I feel like the book jacket copy, I. Um, that I, that I wrote doesn’t quite, doesn’t quite capture, I think in many ways what I think the book is going to be so Well,Jennie: and we’re gonna actually getAndrew: to that. So I, and we’re gonna get to that, I think. Yeah.Jennie: So why don’t you just, just share what, what it is.Andrew: So, uh, the premise of the book is this happens, uh.Uh, the, the novel, it happens 20 years after the events of, uh, Bram Stoker’s Dracula. Um, and so. It involves some of the same characters, and then it also involves the next generation of these characters. So these, those characters children. Um, the, uh, our protagonist is a Abriana Harker, who is the daughter of Mina Harker, who was, um, kind of the female, uh, lead in, in, in Dracula.And she was, she was bitten by Dracula in, in the original novel. [00:06:00] Um, and she is, uh, someone who is defended, um. Uh, by her, uh, by her friends and, and counterparts in, in that story, Abriana is her daughter. And Abriana is now facing a similar challenge. There are bodies that are turning up around her circle and uh, they appear to have similar injuries that Dracula’s victims had 20 years ago, and some people recognize that and are.Going to begin trying to unravel the mystery. And this is all set against the backdrop of the universal suffrage movement, which is also happening in, uh, you know, 1920s London, where, where the novel is, novel is set. And so in broad strokes, that is, that is the, the, the primary premise of the book.Jennie: So the genre is horror.Gothic and I, I did some, some digging. I’m not a big reader of horror, so I did some digging into the genre to make sure that that was right. Because there [00:07:00] there’s also thriller elements. There’s mystery elements. Mm-hmm. There’s, you know, there’s other elements and it is, I always liked to, to test. Is this right?Is this right? Could it be tweaked? Could it be better? And it feels, it feels like there’s really no question about the genre. Right. Do you feel thatAndrew: I, I feel that, I feel definitely, definitely feel that. And I think I, I, like gothic is, is, is a genre that I really enjoy and I want to develop some of those gothic themes in the story a little bit more than I have so far.But yes, I think gothic and, and horror is very much where, where this, where this book lives. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. And that is something I wanna talk about for sure when we get to the inside outline. But I wanna start with, um, the second question of the blueprint is what’s your point? And I know this is something you’ve struggled with a little bit.Yeah. Um, but so the current point that you have here is. I feel like maybe this came from me. So, [00:08:00] uh, I, it’s, you can’t change the world without upsetting people. The more you want to change, the more people you upset, and that’s fine, but it, but it doesn’t, it does, it doesn’t feel like it captures. There’s a real moral, philosophical debate at the center of your story.Right.Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the, the characters are certainly, uh, in the midst of a paradigm shift, you know, there’s the, there, the, the world order is changing as, uh, as suffrage is, is being opened to more and more people. Um, and times a world order like that changes. There are people who are for it and there are a lot of people who are against it.And so I think that’s. That’s an element in, in play here in the, in the novel. And that, and that’s something that I wanted to explore. And obviously there are parallels in current times as well for, uh, for this, for this sort of change. So I think that’s, I think that’s, that’s certainly, that’s certainly part of, uh, of, of [00:09:00] the story.Yeah.Jennie: So I was, when I, when I review a blueprint, and for anybody who’s, who’s got one all on the page and, and you, you like it and it feels pretty good. The step is to, to really pressure test everything. So I, I read through the whole thing. I love looking at a blueprint. A blueprint as a whole rather than piece by piece.And in this particular case, it’s like this. Yeah. This point feels bloodless, which is something we definitely don’t want in this story. So I went back to your why and your why is really powerful and really personal and really political. Um, it’s, it’s fiery, it’s articulate, like there’s so much about your why that I.You can see my comments on the page. Mm-hmm. Not the listener, but Andrew can Right where I was going. Great. Yes. Very powerful. Awesome. You know, it’s just, it’s excellent. And you had some lines in there [00:10:00] about the, the monster in this story is not the vampire, but a man who is refusing to change with the times basically.And. That felt to me, given everything else you’re saying about the parallels between this, the milieu of this story and the milieu we live in right now, the, the fraught. Climate, political climate. Cultural climate that felt more potent as a point. And I, I wondered what you thought about that.Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is as mu that is as much a part of the, the premise as I’ve conceived it, as, as anything else that I’ve, I’ve said, um, you know, the, the, the.Spoiler alert, the the murders aren’t being committed by, by the vampire, uh, or vampires. Uh, the murders are being committed by an old white dude who is not [00:11:00] happy with how the politics are shifting under his feet and how the world is changing around him, um, and is trying to, at all costs, prevent that from happening, even sacrificing a bit of his own humanity in, in the process.And so I think that is. Is is something that certainly resonates, but I think it yeah. Is, as you say, there’s a passion, there’s a blood there that in in, in the why that didn’t quite make it to my point. Um,Jennie: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would suggest for the next iteration mm-hmm. To, to really push that point and.It’s gonna keep changing, it’s gonna keep, um, you know, getting refined as you go. But I think it’s important to move it forward as you keep writing. So the, um, yeah, something that’s, that’s fiery and that’s, um, about, ‘cause that’s a, that’s a, you’re flipping an important trope in a. In a [00:12:00] classic novel, right?Mm-hmm. That it, it’s not the vampire. So like, why that? Why, why are we flipping out? What is that showing us? What is the point of, of doing that in the story? That, so I would really play with that. Um, does that make sense? Mm-hmm.Andrew: Yes, it does. Okay. Yes, it does.Jennie: Okay, so the next thing I wanna talk about is your super, your super simple story.Mm-hmm. And. What’s interesting about the super simple story is, I mean, I love everybody always. Here’s me say this, who’s listened to me for very long, but I love a constraint on in creativity. And this, trying to get this story in a really short space often reveals something. And what it, when it was revealing to me is, so you’ve got, you’ve got a abriana, she wants to, uh, become a doctor.Because of her mother’s, [00:13:00] her mother died in childbirth with her. Um, so that’s the, that’s the storyline. You’ve got the murders that are happening and, and then you’ve got the universal suffragette movement, this political debate that’s going on. So there’s these three threads and. Even in the super simple story, it was feeling a little bit like they’re disconnected.I don’t think they’re disconnected in your mind. I think they’re disconnected on the page.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: So I wanted to just ask you to articulate that a little bit more. ‘cause you hint in the um, book jacket copy later, AA has things in common with Finn halting who’s. Her uncle, the Vampire Hunter. Are you comfortable sharing what those are?Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: What those commonalities are?Andrew: Yeah, I think, I think, [00:14:00] um, uh, Abraham Von Helsing is, is a character from the original novel, um, and he helps guide the team to, uh, uh, find, track down and destroy Dracula. Um. In the world of my novel, his understanding of vampires changes as he’s, as he continues to do research on them.And so he’s discovered, he’s discovered more about them. That will spell out a little bit more in the, uh, in the novel, but. First and foremost, and one of the, one of the primary roles he plays in the, in, in the original novel is a, as a doctor. And that’s one thing that Abriana really admires about him. He becomes a bit of a, a, um, a surrogate.Parent to her with her mother dying and her, uh, her father’s grief, turning into a little bit of emotional distance from, uh, from Abriana. And so von uh, van Helsing kind of fills that gap and so she associates her. I think her desire [00:15:00] to become a doctor stems from both her birth, you know, ultimately killing her mother, but also because, and, and, and wanting to prevent that from happening to other women, but also because she’s seen, you know, van Helsing.Perform his, his service as a doctor. He, she’s seen it in action and what it can do and wants to, and wants to, wants to emulate that. And so, and, and I think one of the, one of the things that, that I get excited about is incorporating a little bit of like historic realism into, into the novel as well. And there was in, uh, the 1920s a, a medi, the London School of Medicine for women.Um, it had it, it had been. Open for a, a decade or so. It was still a fairly new school at the time. And so that there was an, uh, a real place that she would’ve been able to go and get an education is something that, uh, is something that I’m, I’m excited to have part of, part of the novel and like that school wouldn’t have been possible if it was not for the Women’s Liberation [00:16:00] Movement, which resulted obviously in the universal.In the universal suffrage movement. And so all of that I feel, kind of ties, ties together in a way that I haven’t explained very well in my super simple copy, super simple story explanation there.Jennie: So, so that’s what I’m trying to get at is Adrianna is not just some random young woman. No, I mean she’s, she’s very clearly descended from.A, a particular, uh, family who’s had a particular thing happen and you know, there several generations. So have you designed her as a protagonist using those elements of the family yet, or, or is it more kind of just convenient that she’s there? Does that make sense?Andrew: I think so, [00:17:00] and I think it’s probably somewhere in the middle.I think I like the idea of tying her into these characters that who have an existing history, and it then gives her a little bit of, a little bit of, uh, gravitas for the listener when they, when they start digging in that maybe they, maybe they, maybe they have read Dracula, are familiar with those characters and so, okay, this is the next, this is the next generation.But yeah, I mean, I think Abriana reflects. A lot of other things that, that aren’t in, that aren’t represented in the original novel. Um,Jennie: I guess what I, I guess what I’m saying is it feels, one of my concerns is it feels as if you could write this story about Adriana and not have her beat from this family.She could, she could be kind of. Anyone Gotcha. In this [00:18:00] situation? Gotcha. Does that, am I, am I missing, am I missing that? What would make, you know, let’s just, um, I know there’s, there’s several women in the novel who have, have important roles. So I’m gonna pick a name that’s not them. Let’s say that, uh, there’s a young woman, Catherine, you know, not connected to, um.Ben Helsing not connected to her mother, not connected to that whole thing. And same time period, same motivation. She wants to be a doctor. Maybe she had someone in her family die, and that’s her motivation. You know, like suffrages, like that whole story could still play out with Catherine. Uh, am I wrong? I want you to prove me wrong.Andrew: So like, yes, it could, I feel like, I feel like one of the things I like about tying in Van Helsing is it, it presents a red herring, um, in the sense that it’s like, oh, we all think. [00:19:00] That we’re gonna find out vampires are responsible for all of these deaths. Um, like, I don’t know, like, and I, and I can kind of slow burn the, you know, the reveal of vampires in general and, and, and how they end up not actually being the antagonists in this By, by which is So by borrowing, by borrowing his name and sharing his glory a little bit.Yeah.Jennie: Right. But back to Catherine, our, our mm-hmm. Mythical protagonist.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Same thing could happen there. Everybody thinks, oh, the vampires are back. Um, Catherine, you know, they, they keep happening around her. She’s gotta figure it out. You know what I mean? So,Andrew: well, so, soJennie: isAndrew: Yeah,Jennie: no, go ahead.Andrew: The question, the question I, I think that I’ve been grappling a bit with too is do we exist in a world where.Is, does the novel, does the world of the novel, a place where people [00:20:00] have recognized the efforts of Van Helsing and that vampires exist? Is that, is that common knowledge in this world, or is all of that still unknown to folks?Jennie: Okay, this. Is the piece that I’ve been missing.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: That’s exactly the piece that I’ve been missing.That’s totally it. That, so here, this is world building. If anybody’s writing anything with magic, fantasy, sci-fi, even just straight up history, and maybe it’s a retelling or a re um, imagining, you often know those, those questions for sure. And especially for where for. My understanding, I, I’m, like I said, I’m not a horror reader, but I do know a little bit about Dracula, but the, it was a, a sort of science versus, um, like science played a big role in that.What [00:21:00] can we know? Mm-hmm. What can we prove? What is, what is unknowable?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Those sorts of things. Absolutely. So that, you’ve gotta know that here. Mm-hmm. Has it been proved? Is it. Accepted knowledge. Is Van Helsing a hero who’s locked away in his lab continuing to, you know, with funding and whatever to research his thing?Or is he some. You know, recluse who was shamed in the public eye and people think he’s crazy, like that’s gonna color everything. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that’s gonna be, that’s gonna then be the answer I’m looking for. Like, why Adriana as our protagonist and not Catherine. Right. So she’s gonna have that, you imagine her going to medical school with.Those two different stories behind her, how different it’s [00:22:00] gonna be when she shows up in the classroom and people know, you know, or when they know who she is.Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: So there, there’s a real, the reveal to the reveal to the reader about her connection and who she is and then her, her reveal to the society she lives in about.Who she is and you know, the meaning she makes from all that you know, and did, no matter what you decide about Van Helsing, she then you have to all just also decide about her. Does she agree with the prevailing wisdom? If everybody thinks he’s a hero, does she think he, he is too? Or does she think he’s kind of whacked and then, um, learns otherwise or, you know, like the or, or the other wayAndrew: around?Jennie: Yeah. Or the other way around. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So yeah, this is the piece that’s missing is I feel like you have, and this is what I felt the second I heard you talk about your story. I’m like, oh, this could be so [00:23:00] good. Like, this is so potent, but you’re like, you’re missing it. You’re just, it’s like it’s, it’s like it’s not landing as as solid as it should, and I think this is why.Right. I had not been able to figure it out, but. And you have, so I gotta make sure I understand the character. So a Adriana’s dad is the brother of Van Helsing.Andrew: Uh, they’re not related in the original, in the original novel. They’re, they’re, uh, they’re just friends. Okay. Okay. But they’re, but they’re clo Okay.They’re, they’re close friends. And because Van Helsing ultimately saved both of their lives, uh, he is kind of a, a, a surrogate uncle. So, uncle, uncle in quotation marks. Yeah,Jennie: yeah, yeah. Uncle is Is an honorific.Andrew: An honorific, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yep.Jennie: That confused me. Okay. So I thought that there was a direct lineage there.Andrew: Right.Jennie: But there’s not No,Andrew: no genetic link. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:00]Jennie: But a link through. Her mother a link to Van Healthing Through the mother.Andrew: Yes.Jennie: Um, and, and what happened to her. So, okay. Yeah. We have to understand his role, who he is, what he’s doing in the world, what people think of him. Mm-hmm. Um, and also this is important for.Just the environment of your story, because we’ve got this division, political division around the suffragette movement. Is there, is there o, are there other, um, like, I wanna say mood, like what’s the mood of the place where she’s, this story’s taking place? Is it, you know, a creeping sense of doom on many levels?Uh, is the do the vampire, like, is the fact, oh, maybe the vampires are [00:25:00] back. Does that make sense for the times? Um, like you and I are talking right now in 2026, um, during very extreme political upheaval and also during the time when there’s this been this kidnapping of this prominent. Um, media personalities, family member that hasn’t been solved.And there’s this sense like, well of course this is happening now. Like this, you know, is there a weird, are we gonna have a, um, famous serial killer? Story unfolding in our time. Right. Like, that’s what I keep thinking, right? Like there’s a sense of, of course these things are going to start happening now ‘cause things are, feel so unstable and unsettled.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Is that what’s going on there? [00:26:00]Andrew: I mean, I think potentially yes. I, I’ve, because yeah, I feel like this, it, it, it, it was an unsettled moment politically. And also a little bit medically as they as like the medical establishment is transitioning from miasma theory to germ theory. And that was kind of late, late, uh, 19th century, early 20th century.But like there’s, there’s kind of been a, a paradigm shift there. So I think, I feel like yeah, there does wanna be, as you were saying, kind of like this constant, creepy. Creepy feeling. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like to lean into the gothic, like I thought, like, I really want that to pervade every, every chapter, every page.I want that kind of like creeping sensation that that doom is around the corner. Um, that, thatJennie: Right. And doom for many sources. Right. Because I think that that’s kind of one of your points.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Is well, what I’m going back to what [00:27:00] the point, point was. The point we’re kind of, um. Leaning toward is people who review, refuse to evolve.When the world demands, it can become monsters. So the world is evolving in many different ways and probably getting the opportunity for a lot of different people to have to evolve in a lot of different ways. It’s not just one way. It’s not just like, oh, get on this bus, or you’re missing. Get on, you know, what’s the metaphor?Like you’ll miss the boat if you don’t get on the boat. But it feels like there’s all kinds of boats one, one might miss here, right? Um, I think so. And so that’s that. Yeah. Okay, so, so in terms of what to do next, I think your, your homework here is you’ve gotta get to know Van Haling. Yeah. And the, and the world a little bit better.So I would do some character [00:28:00] development work on, on him and what the world thinks of him and what a Brianna’s stepping into the, the light by. Insisting on going to medical school does to Van Haling. Does it delight him? Does it challenge him? Does it, um, you know, what does he think of that? I think that’s important.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, to know too.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um,Andrew: a couple, a couple of things that are occurring to me. I think I had taken for granted the reader’s knowledge of the events of Dracula, and I don’t think I can do that. I think I need to. To develop these characters for my own, as you’re saying, I, I gotta, I have to develop Van Van Hels, the Van Helsing character.I have to develop him for, for my own purposes for this novel. Um, which makes a lot of sense.Jennie: Well, that’s actually a really good question. You defined your ideal reader in a way that I thought was. [00:29:00] Completely delightful. Like she was so fleshed out. She felt like a, a full on character and I was like, oh, I know that.I know that woman. I loved it. It was great. But an important piece you missed in that is you said that she enjoys books about. London, the city and maybe some horror and gothic, but what is her relationship to Dracula, your ideal reader? You need to know that.Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: My, you know, this is what’s funny sometimes about being a book coach is I always say that the, the writers, the god of their own story, I can’t possibly know everything that the writer knows about what they’re writing about, what they’ve read, what they’ve thought, how they’ve lived, any of it.And, and in this particular case, I don’t read. I don’t read horror. I, I, I could barely tell you the, the bear outlines of Dracula if, if press, [00:30:00] um, I mean, I know the, you know, cartoon, the cartoon version. I, I, I could tell you a little more about Frankenstein only because I, against my will, watched the recent, um.Retelling.Andrew: Oh yeah. I haven’t actually seen that yet.Jennie: So I say against my will because I was like, oh my gosh, this is too much for me. But um, you need to know if, so here’s a perfect, let me finish my sentence. You need to know if your reader is a fan, is a reader, is a immersed in the gothic world, is gonna know all these things.Know all the tropes and know all the connections or not. And the, um, perfect example of that is, remember that book, um, pride and Prejudice and Zombies?Andrew: Yes.Jennie: So that appeal to people who love Jane Austen.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like, you’re probably not gonna read that book if you’re not a Jane Austen [00:31:00] fan, but if you are a Jane Austen fan, you’re, you cannot wait to get your hands on that.And. Also probably if you’re a zombie horror fan, you know, you would delight in that even if you didn’t understand the depths of the Jane Austen piece. But that book spoke to such a very particular audience that turned out to be a massive audience. Right, right. So, yeah,Andrew: yeah, yeah.Jennie: You know, I think you need to make a decision.Are you writing for someone like me who’s, who’s like, I don’t know, like I think when I first read it, I was like. Who’s Ben Sing? And you’re like, he’s the famous guy from the thing, right? So are you writing for someone like me or does your, a avatar, your ideal reader hear, you know, does she watch the movie?Does she, does she read the books? Does she gobble that stuff up?Andrew: Right? Yeah.Jennie: What, what is your instinct right now?Andrew: Singling out one or the other is going to, is going to change [00:32:00] how I write the book. Um. What is my instinct? Uh, I dunno. When I think about the character that I, that the character of the reader that I fleshed out in the blueprint, um,Jennie: yeah,Andrew: I don’t think she necessarily would have read Dracula.She might be familiar with the story, but she might not have, um, uh, have read, uh, Dracula itself.Jennie: Okay. So yeah, let’s get to, let’s get really clear on that. Mm-hmm. Because it’s gonna really change. And for those listening. The ideal reader. Oftentimes people think it’s just a throwaway part of the blueprint because they kind of can just picture, you know, generally who their reader is.I mean, first of all, no part of the blueprint is the throwaway. Uh, something really important can come from any one of these. So really go back to your ideal reader. And think about them in relationship to their story. ‘cause this [00:33:00] conversation reveals how drastically you would change the writing of this book, depending on your ideal reader’s relationship to the, to Dracula.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: And, and there’s no right answer. Either answer’s. Great. Right. So, um, so that’s, I just put that on the list of, of things too, um, that you’re gonna be thinking about. Um. So once you get that, so yeah, the understanding of of Van Healthy’s re reputation in the universe right now is going to be the way that you bring your reader up to speed a little bit.Right? Like famous Vampire Hunter still doing his thing or, or. Famous vampire hunter, you know, shamed and, uh, not doing his thing. Um, that’s, those are gonna tie [00:34:00] together,Andrew: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jennie: And cement down the world that we’re coming into, um, more.Andrew: Absolutely. No, I can, I can see how that will change things.Yeah.Jennie: Okay. So, um. We’re not gonna have time to dig, to dig into this yet, but I just wanna touch on it so that, um, when you’re doing this work, you can be thinking about, um, thinking about this piece, but the, um, there’s a cause and effect trajectory that’s obviously what the inside outline is. And at some really key places in yours, you miss an opportunity to to tie in.So we always want our protagonist to have agency to be making the [00:35:00] decisions that cause things to get worse or cause them to be in a worse position or, um, and, and there’s several places in your inside outline where. Things just sort of happen, which is the plot, and then she sort of happens to be there.But if you understand better these parts of her and her connection to this, uh, the not her uncle now, uh, her, this guy, uh, and her connection to what’s happened with her mother and those things, then we wanna use that to push the story. To push the, so the plot has to serve the story. So the things that happen are gonna push your character in ways they don’t wanna be pushed to make decisions that are gonna then push them further and, and they’re gonna get deeper and deeper each time.And [00:36:00] you have a murder mystery. So each murder, we wanna feel more and more as if. She is boxing herself in by what she does. By what she thinks. By what she believes, by what she wants. And the, the CLO is gonna squeeze her to the point where she asks to make a, a big decision, you know, comes, that’s the climax, comes to that like, will I, in this case, um, confront.Uh, both the murderer and her father is kind of where it all ends, so,Andrew: yeah. Yeah.Jennie: You know, it’s not gonna be just like, and now we arrive at a place where she confronts the people. It’s gotta be like. Gut wrenching along the way. Right,Andrew: right.Jennie: So, um, there’s a lot to say there, and I made some comments on the outline, which, which you’ll see [00:37:00] sort of my thoughts and thinking there, but I actually think that this conversation we’ve had is gonna be the solution because the, the big question I had was, is it coincidental that Adriana is.These murders are sort of following her around and people think that it, she might be responsible. Is that coincidental or is there something real there? Yeah. Do you know the answer or not?Andrew: I, I, I’m, I’ve been thinking about that and I think there are ways that it’s not entirely coincidental. I mean, obviously she’s not causing the murders, but I think, I think yes, I think there are things that she does that prompts these.That prompts these women to become targets of the murderer.Jennie: That’s what I hoped you were gonna say. Yeah, because that’s what’s gonna, that’s like, it’s, I think this was on the page and maybe you didn’t realize it, but. [00:38:00] Being friends with Adriana is a little dangerous,right?Andrew: Yes. Yes. I think that could be, that could definitely be part of the part, part of the, part of the theme there. Yeah.Jennie: So that, that shouldn’t, that shouldn’t be coincidental. Well, and this is what’s so, so great about the blueprint and showing it to a critique partner or a writing group or an editor or a book coach, is.Somebody else can say, do you see that you’re doing this thing that’s actually really cool? Or do you, do you see that you’re not doing this? Like it’s things are just revealed. So,Andrew: yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.Jennie: So let’s just wrap this up. Your next iteration, you’re gonna work on sharpening your point. You’re gonna work on sharpening the super simple story so that the Dracula connection is clear.Dracula connection to your [00:39:00] protagonist is, is more clear and you’re gonna under in order to do that. You’re gonna understand then Helsing, the world that we live in and what his relationship of that world is 20 years after Dracula. What, what is happening with him? What is happening with the world? And and that’s gonna help inform the connection between your.Protagonist in these things. And then I think you already answered the ideal reader, but just make sure that you’re comfortable with that, that she’s not a super fan. This is not a insider. Um, folks who know and love and read Dracula, it’s, it’s more someone like me. He was a little clueless. And then if you have time to dig into.How that all plays out in the cause and effect of the inside outline. That’s, that’s where I would go. [00:40:00] So it’s, um, I had an agent, my first agent, way back in the day, used to say, run it through the typewriter one more time because we were actually writing on typewriter. Yeah. Right. Back in the day. And, uh, that’s kind of what I feel, you know, with these ideas in mind, like, run it all through one more time and let, let it all flow through One more time.Um, and we’ll see where it goes.Andrew: Excellent. No, this sounds good. This is, this is some good homework. I’m looking forward to, to digging into this now.Jennie: I know. I can’t wait to see too, and I hope our listeners have enjoyed, uh, going along on this conversation and gotten some inspiration for what, how to pressure test your own, uh, blueprint.And if you’re not doing the blueprint. Uh, also fine, but pressure test what you’re writing. Uh, this is just a tool for doing that, but there’s this kind of questioning and making sure that things are not [00:41:00] assumed. That’s, that’s the key, right? It’s that you, you sort of make these assumptions, but we have to articulate them and pin them down so that we can use them to make a much better story.Well, thank you Andrew. Really thank you for being willing to, uh, expose yourself in this way. Come out from behind the mic, uh, share your journey. It’s not easy to do that, and I appreciate it.Andrew: Well, it’s, it’s fun. Thank you for pushing me outside my comfort zone. Uh, I’ve really enjoyed this.Jennie: I have too. So, uh, for our list.Thanks for joining in. Now let’s get back to work.Outro: The hashtag am writing podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone [00:42:00] deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s very rare for me to demand that the readers of my #AmReading substack pre-order something. And the bar to be my “Just One Book” is high. But here we go: The book is The Fountain—debut speculative fiction from Casey Scieszka—and you’ll want to read it, but even more, you’ll want to hear us talk about what it took to pull this big, beautiful novel from her Tuck-Everlasting-loving soul. And here’s the question her agent asked her that is now stuck on a post-it on my computer and may be my next tattoo: How can you reveal these things in action?Casey is reading:Open Throat by Henry Hoke (“It’s funny and deeply tender and unlike anything I’ve ever read.”Follow Casey on Instagram and Substack: Spruceton Inn.Transcript Below!EPISODE TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell’AntoniaThis is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. I am KJ Dell’Antonia, and today we’re talking with Casey Scieszka. And I meant to ask Casey how to pronounce her last name before we started. How’d I do?Casey ScieszkaI think you did great. Especially over in Poland, we say “SHESH-kah” over here, but I’ve been corrected many times. I think it’s supposed to be more like what you said. So… bravo!KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay… SHESH-skah… SHESH-kah… all right, off we go. Y’all, you’re going to want to know how to spell it, because you’re going to want to order Casey’s debut novel, The Fountain, and it is spelled S-C-I-E-S-Z-K-A. But to carry on with my introduction, Casey is a ridiculously well-traveled innkeeper in upstate New York, and we are just going to let that fantasy sit there for a minute without talking about the amount of snow she’s going to be shoveling tomorrow, because we’re recording this in January and are talking about the fact that I can see her and she is wearing a full-on puffer. So… romance, Hallmark, innkeeper, debut novel—all the things—and also a puffer and snow shovels and pipes and, yeah. You will hear this episode just as Casey’s first book, The Fountain,, comes out, and that is what we’re here to talk about, because I happened to have gotten an advanced copy of it, and I happen to actually have read it—which does not always happen—and even more relevantly, loved it. Therefore, here we are. And Casey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting.Casey ScieszkaThank you so much. I am so thrilled. I’m like really just beyond that you enjoyed it so much.KJ Dell’AntoniaAh, I’m so—I’m, I really did. I will be encouraging everyone to pick it up. It’s mind-boggling that it’s not… and it is your debut. So I’m going to go ahead and—is it, is it really? Like, I mean, I know it’s your debut, but like, is it the first book you’ve written? Oh no, you’ve, you’ve got a kind of a memoirs situation out, right?Casey ScieszkaI wrote like a young adult travelogue with my now husband that he illustrated about when we lived like in China and West Africa and wound up literally out in Timbuktu. So I had some experience that way, but that was nonfiction and for a totally different audience. All that said, this novel is my first published one, but you better believe I have a bin in the drawer.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s what I meant.Casey ScieszkaDrawer. (laughing)KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. Yeah. So, The Fountain, is—just as briefly as possible—it’s the story of an immortal woman who really would like to die, for excellent reasons, because immortality is a weight that is really, really heavy, and you convey that beautifully and wonderfully in this book. And so I want to just start right off—I maybe should let you describe the book—and then I’ll just warn you that my next question is going to be, “Man, how did you have the guts to swing for the fences like this?”Casey ScieszkaWell, I think it probably began when I read Natalie Babbitt’s Tuck Everlasting as a fifth grader in English class, which is about a family that—or a little girl who comes across a magical spring that an immortal family is guarding, and then she has to decide, ultimately, throughout the book, what she’s going to do with this information and this knowledge while other people are hunting it down as well. And those questions just haunted and delighted me for decades, and I kept returning to them, and at some point I was working on a novel, had a whole manuscript going, was deeply frustrated, and I started a little something on the side where I was like, this will just be a short story. We’ll see where this goes. This is nothing, and I think, because… I don’t know, maybe you’ve experienced this before too, where if you’re not looking it directly in the eye, sometimes it can just take off, and it all of a sudden had a life of its own. Essentially, this grown-up version of Tuck Everlasting, where it’s about a woman who has come back to her small hometown in the Catskill Mountains, where she was born in the 1800s, 214 years later, to figure out what did this to her so she can reverse it and finally be released.KJ Dell’AntoniaWow, you really have the… the short pitch. What’s your book about? Down! Congratulations! That’s a tough one. Yeah, you, you nailed it. That is what it is about. And I will say that it took—one of the things that I loved about it, and that I like in a book—is that not only was I not sure at some points what the protagonist wanted for herself, I was not sure what I wanted for her. All I knew was that I wanted “something” for her. And that makes for a really interesting reading experience. Because normally, you know, you find yourself sitting there going, well, just, you know, just tell the person, or just, you know, kiss them or accept your reality, or you’d normally—you know what you want—like, take the ring, Frodo, or whatever. Or don’t take the ring, Frodo. And now there’s no book. But, and in this one, we didn’t. How hard was—was that for you to write—sort of, I don’t know… did you know what you wanted the protagonist—or what you wanted the reader to want for her? Or…?Casey ScieszkaYes and no.KJ Dell’AntoniaHow did you feel about that?Casey ScieszkaRight. Yes and no, and yes and no. I think when you’re writing, ultimately, later on in draft, you have to be very clear about what your character wants. But in the early process, I had no idea. The whole thing, like I said, began as a short story, and that’s really just the first chapter or two, and then I was essentially hunting with her. When I was writing that first draft, I was like, what are we looking for? What has happened in the past 200 years in your life that would make you feel one way or another? And then every time I had a different little angel or devil on my shoulder, whatever you will, who was the—well, what about this point of view? What if? Wouldn’t this type of—wouldn’t someone say, well, living forever would be amazing, because you could share that type of science with other people, and you could, you know, have these wonderful medical advances or, you know, things like that? I could then have other characters essentially embody those, those other points of view as well. Although, I’m really glad that you say that in your reading experience, you still weren’t quite sure what she wanted, because I definitely didn’t want, you know—I mean, no, no author wants characters to just be symbols for points of view.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, no, absolutely not. And I should say that I know that she wants to reverse this. That’s never in question. But this sort of—there—you’re always aware of the question of what does she really want? Because that’s kind of only part of it to want…Casey ScieszkaRight.KJ Dell’AntoniaAn end to this pain, but, but why and what other alternatives there are. And then, of course, I just—I did not know how you were going to end it. I could not imagine how you were going to land that plane. It must have been a tough one. Did you always know where you were going? We will not in any way spoil this.Casey ScieszkaRight. No spoilers.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo, no spoilers.Casey ScieszkaI’d say that about halfway through my first draft, I just saw the ending. I was like, “Oh, this is…”KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s amazing.Casey ScieszkaThis is like that very last moment. I was like, this is where I need to get. And those handful of chapters before the penultimate one, whoa, boy, those were the ones that are like I wrote, like seven different books, you know?KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah.Casey ScieszkaCompletely different versions to actually get there.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what was your… what’s your hope for the reader experience of this book? Besides, you know vast entertainment and pressing it into the hands of their friends.Casey ScieszkaRight. Naturally.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah…Casey ScieszkaBeyond that…KJ Dell’AntoniaWe love that.Casey ScieszkaUm, I mean, I love books that essentially look at what it means to be human and what makes a life worth living. And those are the type of questions that I hope someone would then linger on in their own life after putting down the book. Even in between chapters, you know? That you would be able to reflect on the choices that each character is making and think, like, oh, I would do this. I wouldn’t do that. Or, you know, to kind of just bring that back into your own life that way. Because… I don’t know. Time is perspective, like ever—what is—what does it mean to live forever? What is a long life? Is it? You know, when you’re when you’re little, a summer lasts an eternity. I guess what I’m saying is like our perspective of time is always bendy, and that was an interesting challenge in trying to write a 214 year old woman, where it was very tempting to just turn her into a superhero, where I’d be like, “Oh, well, she’d know 10 language.”KJ Dell’AntoniaShe’d know things, yeah.Casey ScieszkaAnd she’d be like, amazing at all these things. And I had to be like, Casey, you have a lot of time on your hands as well. Like, you’re, you know, you’re 40 years old. And do you know 10 languages? Do you know five languages? Like, what are, like what are we talking about here?KJ Dell’AntoniaOn that ratio you should at least know two. (laughing) Uh, maybe three. If we’re going to say 200 is 10… you know you got, yeah, you should have at least two.Casey ScieszkaExactly. So just kind of examining, like, why would I—why would I have expectation, different expectations for someone simply because they’ve lived longer, and, you know, those types of things?KJ Dell’AntoniaSo you mentioned that you had a bunch of books in a drawer. So what’s bigger about this project than maybe the thing that you put aside to focus on it? Is it bigger?Casey ScieszkaI don’t know if it’s bigger. I think I just had, I had better tools in my toolbox at this point. Like I might return to that other one, but I didn’t have the full heart of the question I was getting at there. I think I had more of a premise, or something like that. Whereas this one, when I was writing, I felt like the problem was I had own—like in the writing was like I had too much meat, I had so many questions, I had so much I was wrestling with. And then it also really helped that, I mean, it’s, its set in a small town in the Catskills, and, spoiler alert, that’s the type of place that I now live.KJ Dell’AntoniaRight.Casey ScieszkaAnd knew. People always tell you like, write what you know. I am, I am not, secretly, 214 years old. I know you can’t see me on camera, guys.Multiple Speakers(both laughing)Casey ScieszkaMy skin’s not that great for a… you know? But, but I do know what small-town life is in the Catskills. I do—there are some characters who are opening up a business. I know what it’s like to open a business. Like, it was really fun for me. I felt like I had this endless well of inspiration to keep pulling from that way. And that was something I couldn’t have written 10 years before. You know?KJ Dell’AntoniaYou also handled the depth of the questions that you’re dealing with remarkably tightly. Did you have to clear away a lot of like… asking for a friend…(laughing). Did you have to clear away a lot of mulling over these questions by people or? I guess what I’m getting at is these are really deep and big questions, like you said, but I don’t feel—you did not Atlas Shrugged these. You know, there’s not like a 20-page dissertation by John Galt in the middle of it. How hard was it to keep that from happening? Or did it come a little more easily for you?Casey ScieszkaI think, nothing, nothing, none of it comes easily. We know this.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Casey ScieszkaI mean, sometimes you reach the flow state, you know? And it is funny to even think back on these things, because I have a, like, a willful blindness, almost in the same way that, like, I have given birth to two children, and, like, I can’t believe I did it a second time, you know? But it’s by, you know, it’s by design, some—perhaps similar with writing. Once you know how the sausage is made, sometimes it can be hard to do again. But anyway, all of this is to go back and actually answer your question. I was very wary of doing the… this is how I feel about something info dump. And one of the things that my agent as an editor has been helpful with from early drafts was, how can you reveal these things in action? So anytime I was tempted to just start explaining things, I was like, Casey, is this happening in action? Like, is this a character actually finding something out? Like from another character in a natural way. So that…KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s a great question.Casey ScieszkaRight. That really, that really helped me. And then also sometimes with the writing I did, just let myself write a whole bunch, you know, because sometimes, especially if you know it’s the beginning of your writing day, maybe it’s, it’s that equivalent of the throat clearing—you’re just or the dog who’s doing circles before they sit down, like you’re, you’re getting around to the thing that you actually want to say. And then when you re read it, you’re like, “Oh, well, those first four paragraphs can go, and here’s where I actually start to say…”KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, here’s what i meant to say.Casey ScieszkaYeah. Yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaTake this. Put it up at the front— delayed all this. Yeah. No. I get it. So how long did this take you?Casey ScieszkaWell, I started the short story in 2021 and then it comes out now. I will say we had, like; everything was in the can, if you will, at least, like a year and a half ago, just kind of waiting for this springtime pub date. But, yeah, it’s a journey. That’s a—I feel, you know, like another thing you don’t want to hear when you’re like, 25 and are like, I’m going to write a book, and you hear an interview with someone who’s like, it took me 10 years, and I was like, my god. And I’m like, well, girl.KJ Dell’AntoniaI can do it faster than that.Casey ScieszkaThis one is five years. But…KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah, no, it takes, it takes a long time, and it’s hard, and it takes a lot of painful thinking, and yeah, all of those things are true. So now, now that you can look back at this project with hopefully a little bit of distance, and you’re about to be talking about it a lot, I suspect. What do you love most about it?Casey ScieszkaOoh. I love most that these characters feel so real to me still that I sometimes catch myself wondering, like, what they’re doing. You know?KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s amazing.Casey ScieszkaLike I lived with them, and I just, I’m so excited that I actually, like made—was able to make that for, you know, not just myself, though, that I surely entertained myself in the process. But it is such a humbling dream that this story is now existing in other people’s brains, that these are characters who have felt real to other people as well.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhat, as you look back, what would you say was the hardest part of the process?Casey ScieszkaAside from all of the waiting?!KJ Dell’AntoniaAll of it! Aside from all of it.Casey ScieszkaWhich felt like…KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah I was going to say aside from…Casey ScieszkaIt felt eternal.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. Yeah.Multiple Speakers(both laughing)Casey ScieszkaI think the very hardest part is early on, when you don’t know—well, the earliest, earliest is delightful, because you’re in just your little creative cocoon, and you’re having these wonderful ideas, and you don’t have to solve any of the plot problems yet, or things like that. You know, you’re just like being your own little creative genius for yourself. But then it’s I feel like that, that first real revision phase when you don’t know fully if this is actually going to become a book where you’re—and time, you know, to talk about time again, is precious, like I, you know, I run this other hotel. It’s open half the year. But when I began it, it was open seven days a week, all year long; I had two children under the age of four at the time. Like, time was precious. I was writing during nap time, like things were being sacrificed in order for me to do this. And it is. It just feels audacious and possibly insane to be doing it when you’re in it, and when you’re on the other side, you’re like, oh, but the road was always pointing here, and you just, you just don’t know that when you’re in it.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo.Casey ScieszkaYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou could easily have, really think, you know, you could easily still be sitting on this going, well, I’m going to finish this…Casey ScieszkaExactly. And, you know…KJ Dell’AntoniaWhen the kids are… you know… or whatever.Casey ScieszkaYeah, exactly I have these other, you know, unfinished or manuscripts that haven’t seen the light of day. But, at this point, I tell myself, and I 99.9999% believe it that those were necessary to write in order to write this.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I sure hope so.Multiple Speakers(both laughing)Casey ScieszkaThere’s just that other point 0.0001 that’s like—KJ Dell’AntoniaWhat?!Casey ScieszkaYeah, it’s like, no, no, it really was necessary.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, you have to. You have to do it. Well, I hate to be, you know, not trying to raise the bar here, but, but what is next after, you know, a topic like this and a big book like, like this? Do you know yet? Are you, are you thinking about it? Where are you in your process?Casey ScieszkaI have been working on something else which is fun. And I definitely have, like, you know, while as much as I know how, how wild it is with how the sausage is made and what I’m, you know, the many revisions and things I’m looking down the barrel at, I also have another level of excitement, because I know, like, wow, I have an agent this time who’s actually excited to read it, and I have a working relationship with an editor. Like, I’m trying to appreciate that…KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, because it’s what you wanted before.Casey ScieszkaAnd it can be so easy to just, you know, slip back into the like; you know, I don’t know, the chaos feelings. But, I will say, I’m not going to say much about the project, other than historically, for everything I’ve ever been drawn to, and including stuff I love to read. I always love when character, when there’s a character who knows like way too much or way too little, like in their situation.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s a very like tempting pitch without having anything you’d like to put your fingers in.Casey ScieszkaWithout…KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s good. That’s good, that’s clever.Casey ScieszkaI told you nothing.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou told me nothing, and yet I’m like, ooh yeah, that does sound… that does sound interesting. Well, I as I’ve as I’ve said I wholeheartedly enjoyed this. It was twisty. You had me thinking things that were not what was so at many, many points of the book.Casey ScieszkaI love to hear this. Love to hear.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah and when we are off, off recording, I’ll tell you some of them, because that is always kind of fun. I really feel like this book is such an achievement. For someone who’s just getting started, it’s great. I can’t wait to see what you do next. And I guess, on that note, what’s something you have read recently where you also felt like the writer was, was really big, really playing big. Is there anything that you would like to press on into people’s hands the way I want to press The Fountain, into their hands?Casey ScieszkaI’ve loved this. Thank you again. One book I keep pressing into many people’s hands is Open Throat by Henry Hoke.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay.Casey ScieszkaIt’s very slim. You can read it in like a day, although I recommend taking a little bit longer, because you’ll want to enjoy it. It is told from the point of view of a mountain lion who lives under the Hollywood sign.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, I—I think I’ve heard the description, even if I don’t remember the—okay.Casey ScieszkaIt’s so funny and so deeply tender, like and just unlike anything I’ve read recently, and I just really felt like, like he was swinging for the fences with this, like it’s from the point of view of an animal, which should be ridiculous, but after…KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd not just an animal, but an animal that lives under the Hollywood sign.Casey ScieszkaYeah, like that’s a mountain lion who’s—it open up or he’s overhearing like you know hikers discussing therapist, you know? It’s just, it’s so silly, but it’s also so deep and kind of truly experimental, but still so accessible and I just feel like it’s the type of thing that I don’t know. Maybe when he sat down to write it, he was like, this, someone’s going to tell me, I’m nuts, but I just connected with it so much.KJ Dell’AntoniaI…yeah. Alright I love that then, and that is a great response to the question, because that really is somebody else swinging for the fences, and that’s what we’re just trying to talk about here for everyone. So where? Well, listeners can find you, obviously they can, they can buy The Fountain,, and they should. You’re inn is called?Casey ScieszkaThe Spruceton Inn, a Catskills Bed & Bar. We’re a little nine-room hotel.KJ Dell’Antonia(laughing) Bed and bar. That’s awesome.Casey ScieszkaYeah. I mean, I don’t, I don’t really mess with breakfast. I mean, you get very nice coffee and some pop tarts. I love a good highbrow, lowbrow, and we are five miles down a seven mile dead end road in the middle of the mountains.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay, I love this for everyone. And is there any particular social media where you are fun and joyful?Casey ScieszkaYeah, you can find us on Instagram at sprucetoninn. That’s also like some writing stuff and same with Substack. Only other thing I’ll say about the inn is we also run an artist residency program, an annual one. So every August we open it up to folks, writers, 2D artists. Basically, if you can make it in a motel room without disturbing your neighbors, come on and make it with us, and you get, you get, like, a week-long stay. No cost, in the month of November.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat is so fun and so cool. And I bet you’re going to get a lot more applications than you can handle this time around. Alright, well, thank you so much for spending this time with me.Casey ScieszkaThank you so much for chatting.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd amazing best of luck with the book, which I loved. All right, kids, I’m signing this off with our new sign off. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Write Big episode, Jennie Nash is joined by AJ Harper, author of Write a Must-Read: Craft a Book That Changes Lives—Including Your Own, to talk about a more meaningful way to define success as a writer. AJ shares her concept of writing a “Top Three” book—one that becomes a reader’s personal favorite, the kind they keep forever, recommend constantly, and return to again and again. Together they explore why chasing external metrics like speed, bestseller lists, or book deals can distract from what really matters, and how focusing on writing something truly beloved often leads to those wins anyway. Links from the Pod:Ep 416: The Art of Helping Writers Do Their Best Work, with AJ HarperWrite a Must-Read, AJ Harper Love Medicine, Louise ErdrichThe War of Art, Steven Pressfield This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hello and welcome to Nerd Corner with Sarina and Jess! I love these episodes because I will never, ever know as much about the publishing industry as Sarina Bowen, and I learn so much from her. This week, she answers a question she got from a listener, paraphrased thusly:Dear Sarina, I want to support you and your work, so which format of your books do you profit from most? The fact that we live in a world where any reader is interested in the answer to this question soothes my troubled soul. So let’s break it down: hardcover, paperback, audio, ebook? What about borrowing from the library? What about subscription services such as Kindle Unlimited?Here are a few helpful links that expand on the topics we discuss in this episode:The Top Five Reasons Pre-Orders Matter This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this Write Big session, Jennie Nash talks with podcast co-host Sarina Bowen about what it really feels like to finish a book—especially the anxiety and pressure that can come with “finishing energy.” Sarina shares a powerful mindset shift: there is no summit in a writing career. You may reach the end of a draft (or even launch day), but the work doesn’t magically get easier—there’s always another book. The key, she says, is learning to love the hike itself and stay connected to your curiosity so you can keep showing up. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Our Goals for 2026: Jess is gonna finish a novel.Sarina is going to figure out what she wants a long haul writer career to looks like.KJ is going to write this book as hard as she can and for as long as it takes.Jennie is going to claim her authority in the writing space.Our Words of the Year are …Meanwhile: Fan of Heated Rivalry? You’ll want to read these books by Sarina Bowen!Ready to talk about your own goals and words? COME ON IN. We are here for that!Hey - if you’ve been curious about becoming a book coach, Jennie’d like to invite you to a live training she’s doing on February 4th, at 5pm PST / 8pm EST. She’s going to be talking about how to become the kind of book coach writers love to pay. You can sign up at bookcoaches.com/liveWOTYs … in the episode! If you want to know what was so funny, you’ll have to listen.Transcript Below!If you love us enough that you got this far…SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, it’s Jennie Nash, and if you’ve been curious about becoming a book coach, I’d like to invite you to a live training I’m going to be doing on February 4th, at 5pm PST, which is 8pm EST, and I’m going to be talking about how to become the kind of book coach writers love to pay. You can sign up for that at bookcoaches.com/live. That’s bookcoaches.com/live. (bookcoaches.com/live) I’d love to see you there.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTJennie NashHey everyone, it’s Jennie, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. All four of us are here today to talk about our Word of the Year for 2026 and our goals. This is one of our favorite episodes to do, and we’ve all been kicking our words around, and we’re ready to share them with you. So Sarina, do you want to go first?Sarina BowenOkay!Jennie NashI just know you are kind of ready.KJ Dell’AntoniaRight off the diving board. No throat clearing, no chit chat. Yeah, we’re just alrighty.Sarina BowenAll right, so I’m Sarina, and I write novels, and pretty much that is all I write. So my goals tend to look kind of the same from year to year, but my, but how I feel about them, changes. So in 2026 I plan to write two to three books, and when I do, I will be rolling off of two contracts with two different publishers. So that means that the other part of my 2026 is really asking myself what I want to do next. Because, you know, finishing energy is a really hard thing, but I’ll be like extra super finishing energy here, because I’m finishing a commitment. And, you know, I used to have goals, like, I’m going to write more books. I’m going to write all the books. And I don’t anymore, because there were, there was a while there where I only wrote books, and then last year, I did a really nice job of meeting my goals that I would also go and have more fun and take more vacations. And it worked. I did that. It turns out that planning fun takes a lot of energy and time. Oh my goodness, it was I, you know, I so I was either off having a wild time, or I was like, you know, nailed to my desk, and, yeah, so I need to do a slightly better job of that this year. Although looking at the schedule, it’s a little hard to see how, because I’m spending a big chunk of March and part of April in Australia and Hong Kong, and then...Jennie NashWait you can’t just throw that in and not say why. [laughing]Sarina BowenOh, well, I’m, I’m visiting. I’m doing four reader events in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.Jennie NashIt’s so exciting, so exciting.Sarina BowenAnd you know, time will tell if accepting this invitation was, in fact, a good idea. When I get home, I will be—it’ll be June, and I will be launching my second book of 2026, which is a romance and so, but, but then, you know, I will have turned in half of what I’m turning in this year, and I will be able to have big thoughts about what I do next. And that is the thing that is going to be hard about this year, not turning in files, but, you know, deciding what does it mean to me? And also a thing that I realized last year, while balancing my busy life is that in this job, there is no summit. It’s not like you climb that big hill and then you stand there and you hear an angel choir, and then you know that the only thing that greets you after writing a big novel is that you will pretty soon, eventually write another one. So you have to enjoy the hike itself. And I am really working on that.Jess LaheyI actually have just—I have just to address what you just mentioned Sarina, I have put in my calendar in June. Since we love to—I happen to love the mid-year check-ins on goals. I put a little note to self, to future Jess to revisit Sarina’s goals at mid-year so that we can talk about maybe what that second half of the year, what comes next, stuff is going to look like. So, expect that to come back around.Sarina BowenOkay, I hope there’s some clarity by then, so I’ll get right on that.Jess LaheyWell, and I would also like to mention that you mentioned, you know, all the work you’re doing and doing fun and stuff like that. You also went back to skating this year, and you, I have loved watching you learn, relearn something fairly new, and gain skills and get determined to like, be able to do that. What’s it called, when you change the side of the blade you’re on? When you turn?Sarina BowenYeah, all that edge work...Jess LaheyIt’s very exciting.Sarina BowenAnd those three turns. Yeah. So that is part of my leave the house and have fun plan, and that has worked out really well. It—when you do something that’s so outside of your usual, like, we could just stipulate by now that I’m pretty good at writing a novel, because I have turned in a number of them and sold a number of them, but I am really not good at skating. So when you take yourself so far out of your element, and you do something that is so foreign to you, you learn, relearn all those weird little tricks about how you learned anything, and the fact that last year I could not do a three turn to save my life, which is where you turn around on one foot. And I tried and I tried and I tried and I tried to trick myself into it. And I’m like, okay, I’ll take off on two feet, but land on one. I just every single thing didn’t work. And then this year, now I can do it. And also, I woke up at four in the morning once and thought I could do a waltz jump tomorrow, and then the next day I did, in fact, just do a waltz jump. And I hadn’t even been thinking about it. It wasn’t even on my list of things I was going to try that week. So learning something really, really new is really just great for your brain and your attitude. And I don’t know what the next thing that I do like that will be, but, yeah, I’m a fan.Jennie NashBut I must reflect back to you that a few years ago, you were, I think the goals had to you were working so hard and just, you know, book to book to book to book and, like, look at you now .You’re going on all these trips, and you’re learning to ice skate, and I know you and KJ are learning Mahjong.KJ Dell’AntoniaMahjong, yes.Jennie NashAnd you write in coffee shops like, you’ve kind of really changed that, that vibe. It’s cool.Sarina BowenI have! I did it right? Like I said, I’m going to have more fun. I’m going to learn to write out of the house. Like I sat in a room and said to you that this was going to happen. And I did, right? But the, but then, but then, writing the actual books, it magically did not get easier. So I am having more fun, but it’s still hard, and that’s how I’m coming to this new realization that, like you know, I need to stop being surprised that the actual job is hard, but it’s just like a piece of the fun that I’m having, and if and I can only write books that I’m probably going to enjoy, because it’s still hard and it still takes a lot of hours.Jennie NashThat’s amazing. I feel compelled to ask you, what are you most enjoying about what you’re writing right now?Sarina BowenWell we are at maximum finishing energy, because I am finishing a revision, which is scary, right? Because then you’re sending it off into the world of telling yourself that it’s done. And I have to say, I have not enjoyed it all that much. This has been one of the more one of the more stressful weeks. But, yeah, I—but there are moments as I look through this manuscript, because I’ve just reached that point where you hate every living word of it, right? Where I read a line and I laugh, and then that’s just a good sign.Jennie NashLike I’m so clever, look at me.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jess LaheyI actually just, just for fun. I just dropped—I got to go—I traveled an hour and a half to go so that I could go sit in a coffee shop and work with these guys, because I miss them so much. And I took two pictures of Sarina while she was working there, and in one, she had this look on her face... I just dropped it in our group text just now, where she’s got this look on her face like this is the hardest, worst thing I’ve ever done. And then I also took one of her smiling and looking like her usual happy self. But it was—I love having those two pictures together on my phone, because it’s so representative of the slog. How there are these moments of really having fun and engaging with the book and loving it, and then there’s those moments of editing where you’re trying to just finish it and get all the words in the right order.Sarina BowenYep, it’s, it’s, you know that the push and pull and the trick to liking this job is that when you’re in that trench of I have to be finished with this. I have to love it, and I have to set it free. You have to remember that the other side is out there. That like the drafting happy, I haven’t made any big mistakes yet, I haven’t sealed off all the x’s yet, like that’s waiting for you on the other side of it. You know, if you get too deep in one place or the other, so that you can’t remember, the other one is out there for you. Then, then that’s a trap. It makes the job harder.Jennie NashWell, thank you for that. Jess, do you want to go next?Jess LaheySure! Yeah, so last year, last year was weird. Last year, my, my, I’m going a little bit into what my word was last year; it was ‘amplified’ because it led, it sort of guided a lot of my goals last year, which had to do with just reaching more people, but during the year, during the course of the year, reaching and educating more people on the topics that I feel really strongly about, like mental health wellness, the specifically substance use prevention, as it relates to things like self-efficacy in kids and feelings of competence in kids. I realized sort of part way through the year how much more I was enjoying and feeling engaged when I was talking to the kids, and how much more impactful I felt when I was talking to the kids, and that shouldn’t be surprising. But, if you’re not a speaker, and if you don’t spend your time speaking to adults and kids and especially teens, you should know it takes, you know, maybe three to four times as much energy to talk to the kids as it does to the adults. In fact, yesterday, I was trying to explain to someone why a virtual event to a lot of kids, doesn’t work. I can’t project that much energy through a screen to captivate a big room of kids. It’s just it’s really hard to do. And anyway, so I realized about halfway through the year that I really wanted when I when I thought about the word amplify and expanding on the number of kids that I reach per year, and the depth to which I am able to reach some kids in particular, it comes it comes down to not just people, but just kids specifically. So I talked with my agents, and we’ve agreed that I’m going to try to incorporate more kids this year. That even if it’s more exhausting for me, it’s more fulfilling, and so that’s one of my big goals for this year, is to figure out how—yes, I still have to talk to adults, and I have to help them understand how to talk to their kids about substance use and mental health and how to see, know, love, support the kids you have, and not the kids you wish you had and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, I have to figure out ways to get in the room with kids more and...KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re a kid-travert!Jess Lahey[laughing] Apparently.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhich some people get their energy from being with people, and some people get, you know, it takes—that’s extroverts and introverts. So you’re a kid-travert, you get your energy from talking to kids. That’s delightful!Jess LaheyIt’s in the moment. In the moment, it’s much more exhausting. But there was a—I spoke at a school in Los Angeles. It was one of the best days I had in front of kids. And the number of emails I got afterwards explaining why it was meaningful to them. You know, I love when the kids, anytime a kid reaches out, it’s this huge honor, because, you know, I’m, who am I? I’m some adult that comes into their school because their teachers say that, and now their teachers say they have to listen to this bozo. They don’t know who this person is. But over time, I’ve figured out ways to help them trust me a little bit more, even before I get there. Like creating these videos where I introduce myself ahead of time. So I’m trying to figure out all the ways in to getting being a trusted adult, becoming a trusted adult to more and more kids, is something that’s incredibly important to me, because that’s where the great education stuff lies. So that amplify word changed for me over last year, and it’s reflected in this year’s goals as well, which is, get in front of more kids. I track those numbers really carefully. Last year, I was in front of just shy of 10,000 people generally, and a couple of 1000 kids. And I just want to change that ratio a little bit so that it’s have more heavily in the kid direction and less heavily in the adult direction. Just because it’s fun and really interesting and challenging. That’s the other thing is, when you’ve been doing something for a long time, there are some talks I can do in my sleep, because I’ve done them so many times, and I don’t want to do that, like, why would you want to come and spend time with someone who’s asleep in front of you? But you know, they look good and it sounds good, but they’re not totally invested. And I think everybody can feel that. So I’ve had to find ways to change things up, to reevaluate my content from other angles, so that I’m not getting sick of myself, and so that I can be fresh and new and useful to people. So, and then, like, I have small goals, you know, Sarina was just talking about her skating and looking, you know, trying to do something completely new that makes you a little nervous. You know, the beekeeping thing still makes me super nervous. And as I mentioned in another episode, I think Tim saw me emotionally preparing to do something I needed to do with the bees and he said I have never seen you so nervous and so doubting yourself about your ability to do something, and I realized how good that is for me. And so we will see at the end of this winter if my bees actually made it through the winter, and if they did, I’ll have a hive of bees to deal with, and if they don’t, I’ll have to get a new hive. But that’s been really, really good for me. Sarina, did you want to add something?Sarina BowenI have a question.Jess LaheyYes, ma’am.Sarina BowenDo we have a writing goal for this year?Jess LaheyYes, we do. And that’s actually at the bottom of my list, because it’s new. So I’ve been attending this weekly, really interesting virtual Blueprint for a Book Fast Track. What is it? Jumpstart you guys? With Jennie Nash, this really great book coach and founder of Author Accelerator, and KJ Dell’Antonia and I have been actually writing—working on this novel that I’ve been working on for ages and ages and ages and thinking about at a minimum once a week, and I’m going to finish it this year. 100% I’m going to finish it this year. And I’m really grateful to Jennie and KJ, because being in that, in—being in there, is forcing me to ask me all kinds of questions about, why am I even bothering to stick with this thing that has stymied me for over a decade? Like, why bother if it’s been that hard and I haven’t ever gotten it done, why am I even doing it? And I love asking myself those questions. It’s been really fun. Plus, there’s like 100 other people in that virtual session asking themselves the same questions and coming up with really cool answers for why they’re even writing something in the first place. And it gets at all these fundamental questions of why we do what we do. So yes, I will be, I’m researching a nonfiction thing still. I have a—I’m looking at a stack of books behind me, and but I’m going to finish this YA novel this year period, full stop, it’s going to happen..Multiple Speakers[Unintelligible] [several speaking at once]Jennie NashWell what’s cool is, is, I mean, YA is not children, but it’s young people. So that’s kind of cool. It goes with your other thing.KJ Dell’AntoniaThere’s a trend there.Jess LaheyYeah. And it was funny, because when you were asking the why the other night, and one of my things was, oh, because these characters speak to me, blah, blah, blah. And KJ mentioned, oh, I do know what Jess is talking about. And maybe it’s, you know, she wants to write a coming of age story, and that’s 100% it. I think I have, I have. I very much love that coming of age space and the struggles that middle school and high school kids go through in that coming of age space. And I think I have an interesting insight into it, and an ability to, an ability to make it come alive on the page. And I, for me, really want to do that. I really want to see it on the page, and I’m really excited about it.Jennie NashYou do have such a compassion for that age and what people are going through and how hard it is and it’s...Jess LaheyAnd I love these characters. And I said I love these characters, and I want to do right by them. And that’s true too. I do love these characters, and I can’t stop thinking about them.Sarina BowenThat is the best reason to finish any piece of fiction. You know?Jess LaheyYeah, no, I really it’s like they’re stuck until I help them get to the other side. And I would hate to leave them there. I would it would make me feel really bad.Jennie NashI love it. Well you know, committing to something that you’ve been working on for that long, that’s a that’s a big deal.Jess LaheyYeah, it’s also one of those. I know it’s going to feel really, really good when I finish it. It’ll be like, oh my gosh, I’ve been harping on that for whatever it is now 12 or 13 years, and I finally finished it. So I know it’s going to be one of those. I’m going to be very, very glad I did it when it’s done. And is it super hard? Yes, I’ve, you know, bitched and moaned about this in the past, that fiction is really hard for me and dialog is so hard for me, but that’s what I’m writing right now.Jennie NashThat’s another, another learning edge, right?Jess LaheyYep. Yep.Jennie NashAwesome. KJ, what about you?KJ Dell’AntoniaMy only goal this year with respect to writing is to write this book as hard as I can for as long as it takes. That’s all I got. I got a couple other goals. I’d like to get my Christmas tree down at some point during the year. It seems like a plan. I was pretty excited about the Valentine’s Day concept a few years ago, but I don’t know, people have been really negging on it. Easter also, apparently not tree material. I mean, come on the fourth? I’m seeing it. No one else is. So there’s that. No, my and my big life goal is to leave more white space for myself in my day and in my calendar, to do things, to not do things, and for the unexpected things, both good and bad things. I have a real tendency to be like from 11:30 to one I’m doing this, and from 1:30 to 2:30 there’s this, and hey, at three there’s this. And that is, in fact, an excellent description of my day. And sometimes I like it, but I just do it to myself constantly, and I need to stop.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jennie NashThat’s all? Okay. Mic drop. I’m just thinking about that white space. What? What happens when you have white space?Sarina BowenYou know what happens to me when I have white space, because I’m actually pretty good at keeping it in my calendar, is that I get an email that’s like, and today, we will be choosing among these eight narrator auditions. And then you will decide who is the narrator for this book that you haven’t been thinking about for four months since you last did the copy edits, and then my whole day just explodes in a little puff of admin, like trying to get out of my own inbox is killing me. So, yeah, I don’t, I don’t. It’s not even that I planned it. Other people are making this my, my problem, and I wish I had a 2026, goal for how to fix it.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, there’s that. I mean, to some extent, I think that’s my point. Is that I would like to stop doing it to myself, because I mean it through exactly the thing it is was not my was not my idea, nor was the thing, the unexpected event at eight o’clock this this morning, or the one when I walked in from the expected thing from nine to 10. I need to do a little less of it for myself, to allow for the fact that the other things in my life, I think, and I did this to some extent last year too. My final kids have actually all left for college this year, which is great, but there’s still a lot of trouble. And also I have a lot of pets, and also just, there’s a lot going on. So I sort of thought, and I really made this mistake in the Fall pretty hard. I thought, oh, I should probably fill like I should put some things on the calendar because I might feel sad. A, I still felt sad, and that was okay. And B, I put way too much on the calendar, given the number, amount of time I had to spend on... I’m just yeah, and here I am thinking I didn’t do it in the spring, and I didn’t, but I sort of am doing it on a daily basis, like, oh, look. And some of that is just that this was, what am I wrong? Was this the longest holiday season ever in the history of holiday season? Like it was still Christmas on January 17, I swear to God. And so a lot of it, I think, is I’m feeling a little dejected, because my days are really packed, because I had the sense not to put everything in the week of January 6, but I put a lot of things this week and last week. So hopefully I’ll, but, but having done that, and now feeling it, I think, I hope, will inspire me to block off more time that, no doubt, will get filled with things. But that’s better than it getting filled with things and my having already filled it.Jennie NashYep.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s not going so great.Jennie NashI get that. Okay, so, so for me, I made some really big moves in my business in 2025 and they worked, and that was great. And I made a decision toward the end of the year to make even bigger moves, and did some thinking about, I wouldn’t say, an exit strategy or a succession plan, but I’m 62 this year, and I’m working really, really, really hard in my business day to day, running, you know, pretty big small business, and I really want more time to create. To create curriculum, to, I just like making things. You know, to work on the podcast, to work on my own book, and I’ll talk about that in a minute. And so I made a training plan to teach my team to take over the things that they are fully capable of taking over, if I just get it out of my head and onto a page to teach them how to do it. So it’s a really big move for me, and kind of a terrifying move. It means trusting people. It means handing over some things. It means there’s some ego-y things involved in that, the idea that nobody can do it as well as I can. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s big. It’s big mindset. It’s big actual shifting of duties. It’s, it’s kind of the white space idea writ large. What, what would it look like for me to have more white space? And it is, it is not retiring, it’s not stopping. It’s just, can I do more of what I want to do and less of the—of the day to day of this business? I am constantly surprised by the thing I have made. Author Accelerator has more than 375 certified book coaches now, and it’s this huge community, and they’re having a huge impact. And a lot of my coaches are becoming huge their own selves and doing really well, and just we’re becoming known. And all of that takes time to manage, like the, I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it the brand, it’s, it’s the community. It just takes a lot of time to manage and the kinds of inquiries that we get and that sort of thing. And I, it’s a thing that needs care, and I’m the one to give it that care. So just meeting the moment, I guess, is what my goal is for the year, and as part of that, the Write Big Sessions that I’ve been doing here at the podcast are my stepping into that space of thought leadership and creation, content creation in a different way. And haven’t talked about this a lot, but I am writing a Write Big book, and I went out and found myself a brand new agent. I did my search from scratch. I did it cold. I tried to find the perfect agent for this book, rather than somebody that I knew, because I know a lot of agents, and I don’t want to, I don’t want to talk about a lot of specifics at the moment about who that person is, or what’s happening really, but I will say that it’s taken a little minute to get it together, because that’s how it happens sometimes. But the book is out on submission, even as we speak, and I was telling KJ, this agent does something that I’ve never heard of and never seen, and I love it so much, which is that she shares a spreadsheet of the submissions and puts the responses right in there so I can log in, you know, 10, 12, 25 times a day and...Multiple Speakers[all laughing]KJ Dell’AntoniaJust normal, healthy behavior, right?Jennie NashWhich is so fantastic. Rather than, like, why isn’t she telling me, or how come we haven’t heard or whatever? But it’s very, very early days, and so all that’s coming in are the no’s, because that’s, that’s what happens. But the no’s are so great. I love them so much. They’re totally boosting me up. Because, like, people know me. They know my work. They like my work. Like I, I don’t know. I’m just so delighted by the nature and quality of the no’s, which is just a funny place to be, but that is, that is where I am so...Sarina BowenJennie, it’s a fantastic place to be. Like I have never heard another author say the no’s make me happy. Like that is not a sentence I have heard in my life. And I know a lot of authors, so the fact that you know that that’s, I just have good, good feelings and good thoughts about this project, and you are amazing.Jennie NashWell, thank you. And that is not by accident. That’s what Writing Big means, right? It’s like I own this idea. I’m not waiting to be picked; I’m not waiting to be anointed. I’m not waiting for somebody to say, you know, good job. But, when they do, and you know, these no’s are just indications, like I self-published the Blueprint Books and I sort of think of them as this little thing that I made. I made them for my coaches to use in their coaching, and I made them to, it’s a model that I teach. I didn’t ever think of it as a thing, but I’ve sold more than 20,000 copies of the Blueprint Books my own self, and, but I just didn’t think like editors would know what they are. They would use them with their own authors. They would know my company. They would know my coaches, and that’s what all the no’s are showing me. And that I’m just, I’m just like, when do you get a mirror into your impact? It feels like the no’s a mirror into my impact, and I feel, I feel like there’s no doubt that something great is going to happen with this book. I have no doubt. So bring on the no’s and have them be awesome, because I know good things, great things are coming, and whether, who knows what path that is going to be, but that, that is where I am, and that sharing of the spreadsheet that this agent has done is just feeding right into, I mean, for other people, it might be the biggest disaster in the world, but for me, I’m like, this is so fun. I love it. My goal is for the year to lean into this bigger vision of what I can be.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s a good goal.Jennie NashThank you. Well, I’m going to share my word first, because it just goes so well with what I’ve just been saying, and it’s so obvious, and it’s so great. And my word of the year is ‘play big’. Play big.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s two words.Jess LaheyThat’s two words.Sarina BowenI get two words.KJ Dell’AntoniaShe’s allowed to have two words because she’s playing big.Multiple Speakers[all laughing]Jennie NashAll right, we have to go in reverse order then so KJ, what’s your, what’s your word?KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, my word of the year is, is ‘alive’.Jess LaheyOh, dear. Okay, that’s a... quite a goal you got there missy.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s a good word... laughingJennie NashCan you explain?!Sarina BowenShe can’t, because she’s laughing really hard right now.KJ Dell’AntoniaUm, it was going to be enthusiast, because I wanted to be sort of a welcoming both the challenges and the excitements of my life. But I really just feel like, and then it was going to be relish, but, but that’s pickles, and I hate them. And then I’m just, I just feel really good about just letting it all come and, and being a part of it.Jennie NashOkay, good word.Jess LaheyOh, Sarina?Sarina BowenI’ve used a lot of the words.Jess LaheyOh, not yet. Sorry.KJ Dell’AntoniaShe said, reverse order.Jennie NashI’m laughing so hard that I’m crying.Jess LaheyOh, she said, reverse order. That’s right.Sarina BowenWe have done this so many times, and we have never laughed all the way through it. Okay, okay.Jess LaheyKJ is right though we have used all of the words, I actually considered reusing one of my words this year, but then I thought maybe that was a cop out. So I did come up with a new word.Sarina BowenI considered it, and then I was too lazy to go look them up.Jess LaheyThat’s quite a statement there, Bowen.Sarina BowenI know!Multiple Speakers[all laughing uncontrollably]KJ Dell’AntoniaI know I had savor before, that was kind of where I was going, but...Jennie NashI can’t stop laughing.KJ Dell’AntoniaI don’t know I feel very gritty about my... [unintelligible]Jennie NashI’m like snort laughing over here at the idea of I’m never going to not hear relish and pickles. [laughing uncontrollably]Jess LaheyI know, I know, I like it so much. I love it.Sarina BowenWell, she really doesn’t like pickles. KJ is that friend where if she is served a pickle with her lunch, you can take it.Jess LaheyYeah. Absolutely.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd the bit of bread that it touched.Sarina BowenOkay Jess? Jess, I don’t know how you’re going to follow this, but do you have a word?Jess LaheyI do have a word, and I’m really excited about this word, because years ago, when I did a really cool conference in Abu Dhabi, I met this woman that I was shocked I hadn’t met before. But her name is Elke Govertsen, Elke, and she has a Substack. Her Substack is just, it’s @ Elke, is her. She managed to snag @ Elke. She has a newsletter. She has something called Open Nesting. She’s got older kids. Anyway, I subscribed to her Substack. I love it. She’s one of those people that when she walked down on stage to give her talk, she just glowed from inside, like she was one of those people that you just, I felt really drawn to. So I started following her and her year, her word for this year I really liked, although I thought about it in a different way than she did. Her word for the year is ‘allow’—a, l, l, o, w—and so that is my word for the year, to allow myself to do some things. For example, finishing this book, and just realizing, allowing myself to be really bad at it and hoping that I can pull it off, allowing myself to look really dumb doing stuff like the beekeeping, allowing myself some grace about the fact that I’m probably killed my bees this winter because they’re not insulated enough, all of the things. But I just really liked her word allow. So that’s where I am. That’s my word. I was going to redo evaluate, because I really did like that one, because that the emphasis there was, like, figure out what’s valuable to you, but whatever, I’ve used that one before, so I’m going to give credit out to Elke and go with allow.Jennie NashOkay, Sarina, what about you?Sarina BowenWell, you know, I picked a word, and I usually really struggle with this, and I never feel quite comfortable with it, but I pick something, or it just picked me one day, and that word is ‘esteem’. And my little job, my little job is having a strange little moment of esteem, because there’s this show that’s at the tippy top of HBO right now called Heated Rivalry. And Heated Rivalry is a book that is a queer hockey romance, which is something that I have also written since 2014, and it has; strangely, some of my best performing books ever over the last decade fall into what I thought was a niche. So I write this niche thing, and people read it and they love it, but you know, it has always stayed in its corner until now. And Rachel Reid is the author of the book called Heated Rivalry, from which this TV show was made very faithfully. And Heated Rivalry is a fantastic novel, by the way. Fantastic conflict, and an interesting story structure. So it has been quite a revelation to watch her book and story reach an audience that I did not feel it was capable of. And there is something about that, that really spoke to all the parts about my, of my business, where, for example, sometimes I have to do research. And early on, I almost felt apologetic about asking an orthopedic surgeon to talk to me about something for a romance novel, because I just assumed that they would roll their eyes. I did it anyway. Thank you, Mark, Dr. Mark, for explaining knee surgery to me. But um, so esteem is a couple of different things. It is choosing projects that I esteem and that I care about, not because I think they’ll sell, but because I love them, and also just realizing that the esteem that comes to various things that we do is not always predictable or measurable or something to rely upon. So I have to esteem it all on my own before I commit the time to do that. And that is how I ended up picking this word that I that I really like. It’s kind of a quiet word. It doesn’t, it isn’t sexy, I guess is, is a word I would describe it, not really, but, um, but it is a, it’s like asks you to pause and measure how we feel about something before we commit. And that is how I ended up there.Jess LaheyI love that meaning to the word. I love it.Jennie NashSomething that also occurs to me is you spoke with such esteem about this other author and the work that that she’s done, and that’s something that you often do, and you lift up all the writers in lots of different ways. And that esteem you have for the process of writing and the publishing business and the hard work of it comes across as well. So I like that meaning too.Sarina BowenWell thank you. I had an interesting conversation with my 22 year old son, who is quite a reader. Right now he’s trying to get to the end of Crime and Punishment before his semester really kicks in. And he asked me over drinks, on a trip to Boston that I was making time for, so go me, if I could write like anyone, like if I could suddenly have the skills of any author, dead or alive, who would I pick? And I instantly gave him a couple of names in contemporary fiction that he has never read and never will, because there are people who write books that are not for 22 year old nerds. And, um, and he, he sort of blanked and he’s like, no mama, like you could have, you could be Tolstoy, you know, like you could pick anything. And I’m like, no, I’m serious. I have esteem for the things these people are doing in contemporary fiction. And it’s like that, um, that George Michael quote, like, when are you going to make some serious music? And he says, you don’t understand, I’m very serious about pop music. And you know, it’s my right to esteem whatever I choose. And I really do choose this. It’s not; it’s not a runner up thing for me. This is my interest, and I’m going to value it.Jess LaheyHell yeah,Sarina BowenYeah. Woohoo!Jennie NashI feel like we should end on that.Jess LaheyYeah. I think that’s a good place to stop.Jennie NashThat was some power, power language there. We would love our listeners to share in the chat your goals for the year, your words for the year, how you feel about pickles and their touching a bread. [laughing] We would love to hear all the things from you, and until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled, Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for the This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Anyone who ever listened to Jenna Blum do interviews on the A Mighty Blaze podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing but most specifically writing BIG—which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction—a departure that’s totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her agent said, her earlier work was elegant and restrained (although still powerful) but in this one Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I know you’ll have a great time listening. #AmReadingThe Plot and The Sequel, Jean Hanff Korelitz Last Seen, Christopher CastellaniYou, Caroline KepnesJoin Jenna on tour—she’s absolutely a joy to listen to on writing and probably any other topic! Dates HERE. And do grab Murder Your Darlings—who doesn’t love a tell-all thriller set in this ridiculous industry we all love so much?Hey—if you’re reading this in January 2026, it’s not too late to join our Blueprint Sprint and get in on a rapid-fire roadmap to writing the book you want to write this year (instead of writing 100K words in search of it… ask me how I know!) First Blueprint post below—upgrade your subscription to get started. Episode Transcript Below! SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie. Happy New Year! If you’re a subscriber to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, you can join us in our Blueprint Challenge, which is starting on January 12. We’re going to be working on new book ideas, books where we’re stuck, and books that we’re revising, and using the Blueprint framework to help us get unstuck, get clarity, get confidence, and move forward. KJ is leading the charge this time with some write-alongs, some Ask Me Anything sessions, and all kinds of good stuff to help you on your way. I’ll be jumping in as well, and I’ll be cheering you as you get your books into shape and get ready to write forward in 2026. Details are in the show notes, and we’d love to have you join us.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, writers, KJ here. I just interviewed Jenna Blum, and any of you who have listened to her when she does the interviews on the A Mighty Blaze Podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing, but most specifically, writing big, which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction, a departure that is totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her own agent said, Jenna’s earlier work was elegant and restrained, although absolutely still powerful, as you know if you’ve read it, but in this one, in Murder Your Darlings, Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I think you’re going to have a really good time listening. Jenna, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us for the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Jenna BlumYou’re so welcome. I am the one who’s honored to be here. Thanks for having me.KJ Dell’AntoniaI am really excited. So, listeners, as you probably heard in the intro, which I haven’t recorded yet, I asked Jenna to join us because she’s doing a big thing. She’s making a jump into a new genre for her, and I can totally relate, and I suspect many of you can too. Her new book, which is out approximately now, as you hear this, is kill your dollar, Kill your darlings. [intended title: Murder Your Darlings] And it is one of those, like, if somebody wrote a book just for me, it would be this kind of book, or this possibly exact book, which is such a thrill. It’s, you know, that combination of the thing that makes me my buy now list, which is, isn’t a thing like that thing where you’re like, if you tell me the book is about such and such, I’m like, yes, yeah, just, just take my money. So it’s that, plus that really great, commercial, friendly, accessible, like the voice I want to read. It’s not—I mean, I don’t know if any of those adjectives thrilled you—but easy reading is hard writing, and nobody knows that more than me, and you do that very well.Jenna BlumThat is so kind of you, KJ. Thank you. So I’m going to rudely start out by issuing a small correction, but the...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh no.Jenna BlumActually, no, no, it’s fine. It’s Murder Your Darlings. And they’re...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, okay, sorry.Jenna BlumPopular phrase. And one of the reasons I call the book Murder Your Darlings, as opposed to kill your darlings, which people tend to gravitate to, is that the book is really about writerly appropriation in the biggest way, about story thievery in the biggest possible go big or go home kind of way. And the phrase kill your darlings is itself an appropriation, which I didn’t know until I started writing this. But the original phrase is Murder Your Darlings. It was coined by a gentleman called Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch in 1914, and he was giving a lecture on good writing, and he said, whenever you think you’ve done something exceptionally clever in your manuscript, by all means, put it in, and then go in and take it out: murder your darlings. And then William Faulkner ran with it, and Stephen King ran with it, and it became really popularized. And I thought, how cool to go back to the original in a book about appropriation. So it’s Murder Your Darlings.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s also—that’s better. I can’t believe I got it wrong, because it has this great cover with the quill and the blood. And I—it that’s, that’s better. It’s just it, I don’t know, kill your darlings has also become a very glib phrase. So to switch it to Murder Your Darlings kind of makes—kind of gives you that record scratch moment of like, oh, oh wait. Oh! Right? So I like it.Jenna BlumI appreciate that. Thank you. I mean, I myself was thinking, kill your darling, so I love to, sort of like, care what of that phrase, that Murder Your Darlings had a sort of a weightier sound to it. And despite, like, the joy that I had in writing about writing, and I hope all your listeners just like me, I’m—my must order now books are all about writers, about writers about writing, especially fiction about writing. I had so much joy in that, but the book also has some pretty weighty subjects at its heart as well. So I feel like that weightier murder is somehow indicative of...KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that brings us really well to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is, what was your intention around this? This is definitely, you—now I think probably we step out with every book, but this is you stepping out and playing big, which is, you know, is a new theme that we’re talking about around here. So what was your intention for Murder Your Darlings? What did you want it to be?Jenna BlumI love that you’re doing the go big or go home theme. I always think that way. I’m not a quiet writer, not probably, not a quiet person.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re not really, no, not—that’s not what I would say. Oh, Jenna, she’s so shy and retiring...yeah. Yeah.Jenna BlumSo I had so much joy and so much fun writing Murder Your Darlings, because all I had to do was unpack my life. She’s such a wallflower. My sister saw a photo of me with a megaphone at a—as an activist at a rally, and she’s like, nobody here is surprised. This is what I’ve been living with for all the years. Anyway. So my intent with this was really just to have some fun, honestly. I have been working on historical fiction, and I’m known primarily for historical fiction, and I was working on historical fiction when the idea for Murder Your Darlings came to me, and I felt like I had two books trying to elbow their way through a doorway at the same time. And because I am more known for historical fiction, and my editor had already green lighted that idea, I was very dutifully working along on it—and it was a terrific idea, I have to say, like on paper. It was an idea on paper that should have been good, but it really wasn’t. There was no juice to it. So I kept writing, and then thinking, right, what was the motivation? What did the character actually want in that scene? And then I would realize I had no idea and didn’t care. And so I was thinking about Murder Your Darlings, which is about a female writer—mid career, female writer who falls in love with a stratospherically successful and very charming male writer and then finds out that he may or may not be killing female writers to take their stories, or is it one of the number of women who are stalking him, especially this very persistent stalker named the Rabbit. And so I had this idea kind of elbowing its way into my head, and I thought, I don’t, I don’t know if I’m qualified to write a thriller. I’ve written a thriller. Who am I to do this? And then I read Jean Hanff Korelitz’s The Plot, which is so good, so contemporary, so fresh, so funny, so smart, so everything. And I stalked her. I called her, got her phone number, called her, and said, how was it for you making this pivot, going from quote, literary fiction end quote, to writing a thriller? And she said, I just write what I want to write and let other people market it. You should write what you write. And I thought, Babu, because I had always loved reading about writers. I’ve always wanted to write about writers, and she kind of gave me—well, she literally gave me permission to do it.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd like you said, it really has some bigger themes around that. Did they come with? Did they come with the idea? Did some of them come with the idea, and some of them had to get pulled in later? Like, how? How did that piece of it play out?Jenna BlumYeah, great question. I am a writer who always knows what her theme is going to be. I would have a mission statement on the board in my study saying, like, here’s what this book is about, and then I hope it reaches the reader through osmosis, as opposed to me being preached. So the plot has to express that idea. But then I am so plot focused when I’m writing and just wanting to get all the blocking down and get this play down so the reader doesn’t get bored that I have to go back through often and shade in the theme and the emotional resonances I hope are there. And one of the very big themes for me in Murder Your Darlings is of codependency, and what makes a smart, successful woman with a stable life, a good community, who’s a teacher, who’s a writer, who has really built her life for herself, fall for somebody who she knows very well may be sketchy AF. It’s like, okay, I’m just going to keep my hand on the hot stove. You know? Why is that? And I feel like, if you know a woman like this, if you were a woman like this, you are a woman like this. I certainly have been this way my whole life, like falling for the sketchy dudes and feeling great shame about it. I thought, I really want to write this book for all of us, or women or men—I should say this is not gender specific.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumOr that person who’s like, don’t open that door, and you open the door anyway.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumWhy?KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd people are like, so many flags, and you’re like, I kind of like flags.Jenna BlumBut he’s... but he’s so cute.KJ Dell’AntoniaHe looks so good in red.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly. And I have to say that the relationship at the center of the book between Sam, the female writer, and William, who’s the male writer, they do have some really rare commonalities too that are hard for Sam to overlook. And she comes from a trauma background, so she can’t trust her own instincts. And so I wanted to, as in all of my novels, work with people who have survived trauma: how they react in the atmosphere and the aftermath, and how their behavior gets kind of torqued or twisted, and sometimes makes it difficult for them to make the healthy decision, which makes...KJ Dell’AntoniaRight!Jenna BlumGood fiction. Good fiction is about people making bad, bad, bad decisions, so...KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd you make him real too. He’s not just bad for the hell of it. You know, it’s not—I— that’s one of the things that is a pet peeve of mine in books, is when you’re like, yeah, that person had really bad parents that really messed them up. But why? Like, yeah. I mean, you can’t have everyone and their parents mess them up. And I would totally do that instantly. That’s my beige flag. Would you like to know how their great, great grandparents screwed everyone up with epigenetics?Jenna BlumIt’s like the poem, right? Is it the Larkin poem? TheyKJ Dell’AntoniaOh, yeah, “They screwed him up,” yeah, yeah. But I always know, like, who screwed them up? And hey, who screwed them up? And who screwed them up?Jenna BlumThat’s a funny thing. Thank you for saying that. So William, and a third of the book is narrated from William’s point of view, and then Sam and the stalker the Rabbit get the other two thirds of the book, and Sam and the Rabbit go back and forth, and William has his own narration at the center of the book. I have to say, I loved writing William. I really did. He’s first person, like, in the guy’s skin. He is really arrogant, like, really narcissistic, and he was, and could never use a, you know, five cent word when a $30,000 word will do. But I really loved writing him, because, as you said, you’re right, like, he doesn’t, he doesn’t mean to be any of those things. And I mean, we all recognize a narcissist, which is such a hot word these days, and I mean, he is a legitimate narcissist, but he doesn’t need to be narcissistic. He just is that way, and he has his reasons that are very clear for being that way. And it wasn’t until—this is when you ask him, before, what did I put in afterwards?—it wasn’t until I was really done writing his first draft, and one of my writer friends said to me, but like, what were his parents like? And I thought, I don’t care. Like, I don’t care what his home life was like. I don’t care about any of that. But when I did go into that room, because I knew I had to, there were things in that room that were a chamber of horrors, that were like, truly grotesque. And I thought, this actually makes sense to help explain why he’s motivated the way he is.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd why she would be drawn to him. Like, you know, he’s not just—there’s there is more in there. I, you know, not to excuse, not to excuse William. Is he the first character you’ve written that was, that was like that, deeply narcissistic, and in the first person?Jenna BlumThat is a great question. He’s not the first character I’ve written who is narcissistic. In my first novel, Those Who Save Us, there’s a Nazi officer who is deeply narcissistic and also totally unaware of his own qualities, which I guess actually defines a narcissist, like they have...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, yeah. I think if you know you’re a narcissist, you’re not a narcissist.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly, right, right. Nobody’s going to be like, I’m a narcissist. Who cares? I love being a narcissist. They’re more like the world serves to please me, and if it doesn’t, then the world is wrong. But this is the first I’ve written from the first person, and in fact, this is the first novel I’ve written anything in the first person. So the Rabbit in this book is first person—the stalker—and William is in the first person. Sam is third person. And I haven’t written in first person since graduate school, and when I did, I was kind of soundly spanked for it. And they’re like; there are graduate school scenes in this book as well. And in Murder Your Darlings, the workshop scenes that I love so much, because I pretty much just airlifted them from the [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, which is the best. Absolutely.Jenna BlumAnd it’s so fun, so much fun to write, like grad school, boot camp, you know whatever... I’m here for all of that. Murders the people who it doesn’t make stronger, but, but yeah, I remember writing...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what was that like to—what is it like to switch your normal writing perspective, so the POV to first person? And did you, did you do it from the right away? Or did you, you know, did you write it the wrong way and then switch it? How did—and did it bother you? Were you like, oh, no, I don’t know if I can do this?Jenna BlumNo. I loved it very much. I loved it so much. And William was actually not even supposed to be in the book, so I can talk about that in a minute, but the first, first person character to come in was the Rabbit, and she wasn’t originally supposed to be there either. It was supposed to be Sam narrating, and the third limited, which is my lane, and I’ve been in that for years and years. And I do love it. I love Sam’s voice as well. But the Rabbit came to me on Christmas Day. I want to say 2023, and I was thinking about Sam’s relationship with William, and how Sam, which is still in Murder Your Darlings, gets very jealous, because she knows that William is really opaque about his relationships with other women, and he cannot resist the charms of the opposite gender, shall we say. So Sam is stalking him. She still stalks him a little bit in this book. And I thought, what if one of the other women were also stalking him alongside Sam? And what would that look like? And I was supposed to be at a friend’s house on Christmas Day. Our whole family got the flu. I was lying in my apartment in Boston feeling wretchedly sorry for myself. It was raining. It wasn’t even snowing. It was a sort of Dickensian awfulness. And I was lying around feeling bad for myself and thinking about this, as one does. And then all of a sudden, I jumped up and ran into my study and put my hands on the keyboard and wrote what would become the prologue of the novel. It is unchanged, in that.KJ Dell’AntoniaWow!Jenna BlumAnd she just came out of freaking nowhere. And I will tell you, it was like plugging my hands into a socket. Like, every time I sat down to write the Rabbit, I just felt electrified. Her voice is not my voice. She’s very colloquial. She’s the person who tells it like it is, speaks truth to power, sits down at the kitchen table and says, like, look, here’s what you got to do. You all just follow suit, we’re going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she just really is very plain spoken and very funny and very sarcastic. I think she’s also not me in terms of, like, what she looks like, in terms of her background. She comes from a poverty background. She comes from an abuse background. She’s a bookseller, which actually I was. But it was astonishing that, like, every day, when I looked at my schedule and I knew I had to write the Rabbit, I was like, oh, thank God, because every time I put my hands on the keyboard, she was there. And I just got such a kick out of her—stalking William, stalking Sam. I think she’s amazing. And there’s a big surprise tied up to the Rabbit. So not to spoil anything, but those of you who love, you know, your twists in your fiction will, I think, be—hopefully—be gratified by, by the twist with the Rabbit. William came in about halfway through. I want to say maybe the first draft. I was going Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, and I was going into the second section of the book, act two, and I was going to continue doing that. And I had this whole outline. Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit—rising action. I knew all my plot points all sketched out. And then one day, I was like, what if, instead of sort of reheating these leftovers and trying to make the action continue to step ladder up, what if William gets a section in all of his William glory and all of his narcissistic glory? And that kind of gives the reader a little bit more reason to be hopeful for Sam and also scared for her, because we know from his perspective what his life was really like, and he’s not being truthful with her about it. And I called my editor and said, I’m going to do this thing, maybe, with your permission. Like, do you mind if I write, you know, some sample William chapters? And I was so nervous about it. I had this whole defense about it. Here’s why this is going to be good. She was like; I think that’s a brilliant idea. Do the whole section from his point of view, if you want to, if you want to. I think that’s great. And again, sitting down to write, I felt like I plug my hands into this socket. But William grounds the whole book with this sort of dark electricity, I think, because he is...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo you already had it from the other points of view? Did you have it planned, or did you have it written?Jenna BlumI had it planned. I had a plan. I had bits of scenes. I had snippets of scenes and chapters. But I have scenes they dearly love that are not in the book at all because William usurped...KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause he can’t—yeah, he doesn’t—well, and he is not there.Jenna BlumAccess, no. But, I mean, I kind of flipped them inside out in like a pocket, into, like, other parts of the book, so that, like, I know what Sam and the Rabbit are doing during William’s sections. And you see them, of course...KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah.Jenna BlumFrom his point of view instead. It was not a darling I had to murder. Like, again, like sitting down to write his point of view was a relief, in some ways, to get out of my own skin. Getting into somebody else’s skin, in the first person, is the farthest you can go from yourself if that character is not, in fact, you. And that’s why I love writing fiction. I get out of my own skin into somebody else’s skin; walk around in that virtual reality. I just freaking love it. It’s the best part—kind of insanity there is.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo with this project, what did you love most about the process? Sounds like there’s going to be—sounds like there’s a competition, because it really sounds like you had—I mean, I’m sure there were some hard moments. We’ll get to that. That’s my next question, actually. But what did you love most? What do you love most about how it turned out, and what did you love most about doing it?Jenna BlumI love all the things. I literally have goosebumps when you say this. I mean, it is a competition, because I love this book so much. And I know you’re not supposed to say it about your own books, but I do. I just love this book, and it might be my favorite book that I’ve written. My favorite. I love it so, so much. I hope readers feel the same way. I think one of the reasons I love it so much is I think it’s really funny. Like, there was never a single day where I sat down to work on this book that I didn’t snort laugh, like, in the middle of the scene, because William is so charming and yet so horrible and fatuous and whatever. So he really made me laugh, whether I’m viewing him from the outside or from inside. And the worse he gets the more funny I thought he was. The Rabbit, likewise, in her speaking truth to power kind of way. And then Sam sections allowed me to spill the tea about the weirdness and the wonderfulness of the writer life, much of which is just so peculiar, whether you’re on tour or you’re trying to, you know, zhuzh an idea into being and you can’t quite get it, or, you know, being in a relationship with another writer. I mean, all of those things are just—they’re just nuts. And so every day I sat down and laughed and laughed and laughed and, like, cackled in my apartment, scaring the dog. And I thought it was so much fun. And now looking at the book and, like, holding it in my hands, I can open it to any page and be like, yeah, oh my God, I totally remember that line that was so great. So I hope people have fun with it. The early reviews that have come in have been, thank God, you know, Inshallah, they were great. And that’s what people have been saying. It’s a delicious book. It’s a fun book. It’s a delightful book. Nobody’s ever said this about my books before.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s totally very different. It’s totally, really different than your other work, right?Jenna BlumYes. Well, I mean, I think so. Like, when you’re not writing historical fiction, fiction requires—or at least it did for me—because I’m writing about big, serious things, you’re writing about World War Two, it’s probably not going to be all that funny. But I feel like the third person voice that I’ve been using most of my authorial career has been hopefully elegant and restrained, because I really, you know, working with my word choices—every author does—but I’m trying to maintain a very even narrative tone. This one is just so freaking off the chain, because I got to write in a contemporary way. I got to get into the first person, other people’s voices, other people’s experiences. It was interesting. My agent, who’s very, very smart, and she is French, and when I came to her and said, you know that historical fiction that you thought I was writing, it’s actually not that. It’s a thriller. That’s something different. She read it, and I was, again, sort of terrified of what she would say. And she called me, and she was like, [imitating her French accent] “Jenna, I think what you are doing is smart, but more than that, I think it is brave, because your whole life you have hide behind this voice you use for your historicals. And instead, this is like, really, you taking the gloves off. This is your voice. This is you.” And I just felt so validated and empowered by that observation.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat is exactly why we were—we are here. If this is—it’s so, so meet. We are meeting for the first time. Lots of times when I get somebody on the podcast, we’ve never encountered each other, and your vibe is so Murder Your Darlings. And really, you know, at this point in your life and in your career, this is really, you know, who you’re presenting as. And I, of course, don’t know how you presented, you know—maybe we should go back seven years to before a lot of things that have evolved in your life. I don’t know whether you were maybe a little more elegant and restrained yourself. I have no idea.Jenna BlumUh uhh, never.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo?Jenna BlumNope.KJ Dell’AntoniaI mean, it must feel so great to have released that part of yourself into this much, you know, loved part of your world.Jenna BlumIt just feels so much easier in a lot of ways. I remember—and I’m thinking about this while we’re talking—lying on the couch and watching the You series by Caroline Kepnes, like, based on a series of books that she’s written that are really tremendously good. And I remember I was looking for a binge at the time. I just finished something that was fantastic. And, like, you know, what am I going to watch? And I clicked into You, and I was so happy that I did because I thought, this woman writes the way people actually speak. Her dialogue is so smart. It’s so Cracker Jack. It’s so spot on. And I am now friends with Caroline. Caroline is amazing, and I remember saying that to her the first time I met her, just as a total fangirl. Like, how did you do that? She was like, this is just how I write, and I have not been giving myself permission for years and years to do that.But in fact, again, my agent would say to me, you know, [imitating her French accent] “You write these, these book, and you go to your readings and people think they’re going to meet, like, Margaret Thatcher or something, because books are very serious and very heavy and very, you know, weighty about this big topic, and then you are a goofball.” And I am!KJ Dell’AntoniaI love the French accent you are giving us here. As a student of French, I’m particularly enjoying it.Jenna BlumOh, I’m so sorry then, because my agent hates when I do this. She hates it. She’s like; please don’t use the French accent. I’m like, I have to use it. And she’s in the book, and her name is Mireille, and I wrote her exactly as she speaks. And she—my editor, whose name is Sara Nelson—is in the book as Patricia, and I pulled no punches or even tried to disguise them whatsoever. And they like to bicker over who is more important in the book, Mireille or Patricia. So that’s super fun. But I mean, I do think there is something really liberating about entering a scene, entering a chapter, and thinking, I don’t have to fancify this language. I don’t have to smooth over its edges. If I want to say somebody is sketchy AF, I say they’re sketchy AF.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I don’t have to figure out how someone would have said that in 1942, which is—I mean, I do—I don’t want to—your past work, which I haven’t read all of, but what I have read is very much infused with a humanity and a female power. It may be elegant and restrained, but it’s in there. It’s like, you know, coiled, but it’s in there. So I don’t want to propose that those books aren’t really you. But this is, you know, this is definitely more who you come out of the box as.Jenna BlumYeah, there won’t be such a mismatch with this for readers who are coming to my work for the first time. If you do that and then you see me in person, you’ll be like, oh, this totally tracks, as opposed to... And I think one of the great things about writing fiction is you can be in that sort of disguise. And my previous fiction, the historical fiction—and I did have one contemporary novel in there as well—I think the topics were just not as funny to me. Like, writing life is very funny, and contemporary life is funny. But I think that writing historical fiction enables you to get in a time machine and go back and put on a different set of clothes, and that is reflected in the narration. And this, I think, shares some commonality with my other fiction, in that, like William, I am a friend of big vocabulary. Like, I love my vocabulary. I love to deploy. But it just feels more bouncy to me. Like, it just feels buoyant and super energized. And I love it. Like, I have three more thrillers lined up in my head on the runway that I would love to write.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s amazing.Jenna BlumSo I’m really excited about—I hope this book does well. So everybody should buy it, please, so I can write more thrillers. Please.KJ Dell’AntoniaEveryone do that. We’re going to put all the links for that in the show notes. So one more question before we turn to me asking you about other people’s books. What was the hardest thing about writing this? I have a guess for what you’re going to say, but I want to hear what you say first.Jenna BlumI don’t know if there was a hard thing about writing this book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI was going to say; maybe it was giving yourself permission to do it in the first place.Jenna BlumOh, interesting. No. I mean, that’s more about marketing, in some ways. I had to get permission. I didn’t want my agent to be like, no, this sucks. I mean, she would try to sell it no matter what, but I really...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, you’re such a disappointment.Jenna BlumRight? If we must write it. Nash, my editor as well—I’ve been with my agent for 24 years, and I had been with my editor for, like, almost 10 years now, which is pretty amazing.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, that’s the dream.Jenna BlumSo glad to have one on one shoulder and one on the other shoulder. So I didn’t want them to both be like, oh gosh, she’s writing a thriller, everybody writing a thriller. What was the hard thing about writing this book? I think the fact that I’m no longer writing it, honestly. It’s one of those, like, tough act to follow books. You know, I think about other ideas and I’m like, but they’re not darlings, though. So, like, I really had so much fun with this book that when I was done, I was really bummed. I will say that there is a paragraph toward the end of the book that is, for me, the heart and the soul of the entire book. And I’m always curious about other writers, whether they have these paragraphs that are really the sort of nut graph of the whole piece, to use a journalistic term—like, the whole, the heart of it. And I cannot read that paragraph without crying. And I revised this book eleventy-two times, and I could never get through it without weeping. I read the whole thing aloud when I was in the copy edit stage, and I was like, you know. So, I mean, is that hard? I don’t know if that’s hard, but it was like a part that stabbed me, I think. And then the rest of it is just, like, a pure freaking joy. And I really hope people feel the same way, because, I mean, it’s just—why not bring joy?KJ Dell’AntoniaWhy not bring joy? That is the thing that has stuck with me most about stuff I’ve read most recently about writing. And unfortunately, I’ve already forgotten where I saw it, but someone was saying, if you’re read, why should people read your book? What are you—what are you giving them? They were like, if, if your whole point is, but I worked so hard, that is not how this works. But yeah, like, great. I mean yay. But also, I mean, what’s in it for me, man? I’m the reader, and what’s in it for me? And joy is the answer that I want. So I think it’s going to be the answer everyone else wants too.Jenna BlumAnd, like deliciousness and fun and hopefully—I mean, I write all of my books at the bottom line, at the common denominator, to help people feel less alone in their experiences. So if people read this book and they’re like, oh my God, I was totally—say I’m walking into this relationship—oh my God, oh my God, that’s me, oh my God. Like, I really hope that people see themselves in her.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, it’s the gift of getting yourself, getting out of your head and also seeing yourself more clearly.Jenna BlumYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat, to me, is the hope with fiction.Jenna BlumYep, totally agree. You get to escape. You get to have an adventure. You get to feel the work through somebody else’s experience. And then you also get to feel like, whatever your weirdo experience—all weirdos—like, you’re not alone in that experience. We are here.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love it. All right. Well, switching gears completely, tell me what you’ve read recently where, again, we’ve talked really hard about this—this book was a leap. It was a great leap for you. You’re playing big. What have you read recently where you could tell that the writer was also playing big, going, going to the outside of their abilities?Jenna BlumYeah, I think—I mean, I know so many talented writers. I think they’re just trying out different keys the same way I am. And my answer really runs along my own track, because there are a lot of writers I know who are writing thriller or true crime disguised as fiction type of stuff, who have been primarily and previously known as quote literary fiction, end quote, and just, like, a term that that I don’t like. But when I say that, I really mean when the attention is paid so much to the language and the characters, and you can be a little more experimental in form, et cetera. But I think really, like Jean Hanff Korelitz, who I mentioned earlier.KJ Dell’AntoniaYep, I loved The Plot and The Sequel. They’re both great.Jenna BlumI love The Plot and The Sequel. I did not have the pleasure of interviewing Jean for The Plot, although somebody on [unintelligible] did. But I did have the pleasure of interviewing her for The Sequel. And I was fascinated by, like, that is a go big thing, because everybody’s like, oh, The Sequel is not as good as the original. So even to write a sequel in the first place is going really big in my work.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd then to, to have it be what it was. I actually, in some ways, thought it was better. But, I mean, they were both great. I really enjoyed both of them, but The Sequel was just like, “ooohh, oooww,” in the way it just... Anyway. It was, it was very skillful.Jenna BlumI loved that it was really ingenious. And I loved talking to her about thrillers. I was like, how do you do this when you have a plot and you need to figure out, you know, at the end, how do you surprise the reader? And she said, it’s like going down a long hallway filled with doors, and you keep opening a door and closing the door. You know, that’s not the answer to the plot problem. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. And at the end, you have only one door left, and that is your thriller solution. Like, that’s the twist ending. And I was like, people plan that? I mean, I have to plan everything. I plan going to the market, you know. I’m like that person. And, you know, she didn’t. She doesn’t plan it. And I thought that was [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I too am a planner. And that boggles my mind. I don’t mind if the plan then changes, but without—I could not. I cannot operate without the plan.Jenna BlumI can’t write without the plan, even if I’m not writing a thriller. So to write a thriller that is still satisfying and not have that delicate calibration of, yes, this is the surprise that I’m going to plant in chapter 39—that’s astonishing. So she is one. And my friend Chris Castellani, who has the book coming out February 17—I want to say its called Last Seen. And Chris is a beautiful literary writer. He had a book called A Kiss from Maddalena that grew into a series of three books. His last book was called Leading Men, and he got a review in The New York Times that said his prose was—I memorized this, not because I’m jealous, don’t worry—was opaline, and likened him to F. Scott Fitzgerald. And I remember calling out that review, and I was like, sir, you should get that as a tramp stamp. I certainly would. And so he has this reputation as this fine, fine literary writer, and he decided to go into true crime slash thriller territory alongside me. And I’m so glad our books are out at almost the same time so we can kind of keep each other company in this venture. So Chris’s book, Last Seen, is about the victims of the smiley face killer, and they are all of these young men who are killed by the smiley face killer, narrating from within the frozen rivers in which they are trapped, dead. So they’re, like, sort of narrating from beyond.KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that’s still experimental. He did not fully leave his form.Jenna BlumHe didn’t, and it’s...KJ Dell’AntoniaHe’s taking his form with him.Jenna BlumYeah, he is, in a way that I don’t know if I have or not. And I would leave that for greater minds to determine. I mean, I hope that what I’m writing is still smart. And again, there’s the big vocabulary, but, but there does seem to be more of a jump in some ways. But Chris—it is a little sort of Virgin Suicides, I guess, but from the point of view of all of these lost boys. But you also get what their family members are saying, or the people who love them, the last time they saw them. And it’s this beautiful, sort of kaleidoscopic endeavor that also provides satisfying answers as to who did this. So he’s taking his craft and applying it to almost a whodunit in a way. And I think it’s really ingenious and really fascinating to watch this track change from the outside, where I feel like it’s almost like T. S. Eliot is writing a thriller—like that’s kind of how it reads—except with more sex and death. And Chris and I are going to speak together at Politics and Prose on March 5, I want to say, and we...KJ Dell’AntoniaNow I can put that in the show notes, because this will be out. If anybody’s in the DC area, you could hit Politics and Prose.Jenna BlumYeah, come on down.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat would be amazing.Jenna BlumWe are calling our panel the sex and death panel, or the sex and death conversation, because both our books are so sexy and so deathly. And then my friend Alex George, who I love, said, well, you should invite an accountant to be on your panel, and then it could be sex, death, and tax.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes.Jenna BlumWhich we’re not going to do, but...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well.Jenna BlumBut that’s funny.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well, they’ll, they’ll charge sales tax or something. It’ll—they’re still taxes. Taxes will always be with us.Jenna BlumRight. Exactly. Sex, death, and taxes. So come on out for sex, death, and taxes. And the book Last Seen. And it’s just—it’s really haunting. It’s a very haunting book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this. Well, I know that what’s next for you is a pretty big tour for this, which I will put all the links to in the show notes, not to raise the bar. But are you? Are you already working at—this is sort of, this is actually more like a craft question. Are you already working on something new? Are you noodling something new? How do you manage this process part of your writing?Jenna BlumI’m noodling something new. For all of the ventures into new territory, I haven’t been able to change my spots yet in terms of process, which, for somebody writing thrillers, is not great, because you can, you know, hopefully turn them out faster than fiction. To me, the historical fiction requires so much research that took me much longer to write. But I do have those ideas lined up. I think what I like to do with ideas is I kind of roll them around in my head like marbles to see if they are going to stick around, or if they’re going to roll down a hole and disappear somewhere, like a little rabbit hole. And then you know that they don’t have stick-to-itiveness. All three of the ideas that I’m thinking about are still there. The thing for me is I’m a very single-task person, and when I’m promoting, I’m really promoting. Like, my tour—amazingly bananas. Like, I am going to be in a different place every single day connecting with readers, like Sam in Murder Your Darlings, the heroine. I write to connect with readers. I don’t write for the joy of the writing, although I love this book and enjoyed writing it so much. Like, I write because I want it to meet you guys and be out there, like talking about my book, talking about other books. So when I’m on tour, I don’t actually write. And I was saying this to my friend the other day, Dawn Tripp, who’s also an amazing writer, who wrote Jackie, and has been on tour. She did something like 162—I’m making it up—but she...KJ Dell’AntoniaI actually saw her at... outside Boston, the Newburyport Book Festival. Oh, I know, which is amazing, which I also will be at. Yeah. That’s a great festival.Jenna BlumYeah, it’s so good. And I’m going to be in conversation with my editor, so if you have any...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, there? At the Newburyport festival? I’m sure—I usually go. So that sounds great.Jenna BlumPlease come, please come. Because that’ll be really fun, because she can spill the tea on, on, like, how disorganized I might actually be. But Dawn—I was saying—she’s like, oh, I’m home now. I’m so happy I can write. I was like; I can’t imagine how you would have written on that tour. And she said, oh, no, I write every day, because if I don’t, I don’t feel great, you know, I don’t feel great in my own skin. And I was like, that’s just nuts, man. Like, I’m going—I’m done with this book. I’m going to Nordstrom Rack. I’m going to go shopping. I’m not touching another book for five years. But I do, I’m kind of looking forward to being back this summer. I have a couple of months that I think are slower, and I want to develop those ideas. So let’s see if I can, you know...KJ Dell’AntoniaLet him audition a little more loudly.Jenna BlumYeah, I love that audition. That’s so great. I’m going to steal that, but I’ll credit you.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah. It’s all yours. All right. This was so great. Thank you so much. This was a super fun conversation, and I’m going to enjoy creating the intro and writing up the show notes for it. And, gosh, I hope everybody goes out and buys this too. It is a wholly enjoyable experience, a great way to cleanse your palate from your January, your December, whatever, whatever that may have been. And now in January, you know, come Murder Your Darlings with Jenna. You’ll—you won’t be sorry.Jenna BlumThank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is a sheer, pure delight. Thank you.KJ Dell’AntoniaThank you. Okay, writers, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe