#AmWriting

This is a Bonus Episode, which means that it doesn’t have any of the beautiful audio engineering from our amazing team.In this Bonus Episode, Jennie Nash talks with physician-writer Carolyn Roy Bornstein about how one Blueprint exercise brought clarity to a long-stalled book project. By identifying a single ideal reader, Carolyn was able to see exactly who she was writing for and shape A Prescription for Burnout with purpose and focus.They discuss why audience clarity matters and how the Blueprint can unlock momentum at the right moment in the writing process.Our guest, Carolyn Roy Bornstein, MD is a retired pediatrician, narrative medicine teacher, and author whose work explores the healing power of reflective writing. Her forthcoming book, A Prescription for Burnout: Restorative Writing for Healthcare Professionals, will be published by Johns Hopkins University Press. Carolyn draws on her clinical experience, her own journey through trauma and recovery, and her work with healthcare trainees to help writers—and caregivers—find voice, purpose, and resilience through the written word.Join Us for the Blueprint Challenge Starting January 12Hi there supporters and subscribers! Many of you are joining the Winter Blueprint for a Book, and if that’s you, you must opt-in to receive posts, AMAs, write-alongs and podcasts. In 10 weeks, future you will be thanking current you for all the work you put in to figure out what you want this book to be—and how to best get it there, whether you’re starting fresh with a new draft or revising something that still hasn’t come together.If you don’t opt in (how-to below), this will be the only Blueprint-related email that comes your way. (So no worries and no extra emails for those of us having a normal chaotic writing season!)And for those of you who haven’t yet signed up—WHAT are you waiting for? This is a killer deal—put in an hour a week (okay, maybe more some weeks) and you could have a blueprint in hand by March—with a cohort, AMAs, write-alongs and plenty of help. Last chance—or at least, this is the last time we’ll prod you. If you decide to jump in next week, we’ll be here.Want to learn more? We published a whole series about the joys and benefits of the Blueprint:* What the Blueprint is and why Jennie made it* Introducing the winter book coach hosts* Overcoming Pantsing Pitfalls: How the Blueprint Method Can Save Your Story* The Blueprint is the Solution for Time-Strapped Writers* How to Use a Blueprint for Revision* Befriending the Blueprint* Using Mindfulness to Master the BlueprintNot yet a paid subscriber? There’s still time—in fact, there’s still a special deal in place for those who want to jump in: 20% off an annual subscription until 1/15/25, and you can spend the next ten weeks figuring out what you want this book to be, instead of writing 250K words over the course of the year to achieve the same thing. Ask me how I know.To join Blueprint for a Book, you must opt-in and set up your podcast feed. Don’t worry, it’s simple! Click here to go to your #AmWriting account, and when you see this screen, do two things:* Toggle “Blueprint for a Book” from “off” (grey) to “on” (orange).* Click “set up podcast” next to Winter 2025 Blueprint for a Book and follow the easy instructions. (It is MUCH easier to do this step on your phone.)Once you set those things up, you’ll get all the future Blueprint emails and podcasts (and if you’re joining the party a bit late, just head to our website and click on Blueprint for a Book Winter 2025 in the top menu). This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s the December Booklab, and while our booklabs are normally only for subscribers, we’ve made this one free as a little present to you—something to listen to while all the other pods are having a well deserved break.How this works: we’ve chosen two among the brave souls who have submitted their first pages (i.e. first 350 words) to us. As always, we read the page aloud, with no other information other than genre and (sometimes) title. We talk about what we read, how it was received, what we think we do and don’t know about the book and what we should know. We offer constructive comments to these writers, and to all writers, on how to make that first page work as hard for you as it can.And then we answer the question: would we turn the page?Kids, those first pages have to WORK. People download a book, or grab an audio sample, often without the benefit of your flap copy or the beautiful cover, and you need to sell them on sticking around from that first minute. The two entries for this episode:* The Burning Truth is a commercial thriller centered on a woman whose sister’s death is reopened when a teenage true-crime podcaster starts investigating a case that hits dangerously close to home.* Camil and Bloom is contemporary literary fiction about a middle-aged woman at a bar grappling with being ghosted, using sharp observational detail to explore loneliness, aging, and stalled lives.Our takeaway is that a first page must work with extreme efficiency: it needs to establish character, stakes, and story direction all at once. Vivid details and strong writing aren’t enough on their own; those details have to be focused and clearly tied to the protagonist’s emotional core so readers understand whose story this is and why it matters. A compelling hook helps, but clarity of perspective and purpose is what ultimately makes a reader turn the page.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Most writers start revision by re-reading their manuscript from page one — but that’s the least effective way to improve a book. In this episode, Jenny explains a clearer, more strategic way to revise using the Blueprint and the 3D Revision Process. You’ll learn how to step back, see your book with fresh eyes, and create a plan that actually moves your manuscript from good to great. We also invite you to join the upcoming Blueprint Sprint.In this episode you’ll learn:* Why a full-manuscript read is often the wrong first step in revision* The mindset shift every writer needs before diving into revisions* How to use the Blueprint to create a clear, confident revision plan before touching your pagesJoin the Blueprint SprintStarting January 12 and rolling though February, KJ Dell’Antonia and Jennie Nash will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you’re just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision with weekly assignments, live events, workbooks and updated access to all the Blueprint resources. All you need to do is be a paid subscriber and stay tuned—we’ll let you know how to get signed up.I NEED a January Blueprint!APPLICATIONS CLOSED What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can’t attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline.We’re keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won’t take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now.Links & Resources* Learn more about the Blueprint tools* Substack about how each genre has a different primary goal in the Blueprint * #amwriting Episode about the Blueprint origin story and why it’s such a powerful tool: Transcript Below!#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.“Revision means stepping back, thinking big picture, and being brave enough to rebuild.”SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHi writers, the Winter Blueprint Challenge 2026 is on, and I can’t wait to do it, and I can’t wait to tell you about it. Okay, so this time around, we’re going to have two ways to play. First, we’ll run the Blueprint for supporters, 10 weeks of Blueprint assignments, live events, and encouragement starting January 12, 2026—or, and this is the big news, apply to join our very first Blueprint cohort—10 of you will become a small group that receives direct feedback from me and from Jennie on flap copy and the three page Inside-Outline, and joins five group only live sessions and becomes a part of a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a blueprint that leads you to the book you want to start and finish. Applications to join this group open December 15, 2025 and will be evaluated on a first come, first-serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we’re going to close down the application. So get yours in early. Early-bird pricing for the small cohort is $1,000 until December 22 after that, the price goes up to $1200 (if there are even spaces left by then). I am so excited about this. So get your application in early. The regular Blueprint will run for supporters at the usual supporter pricing, but this other cohort is going to be really special details on how and where to apply are in the show notes, or they’re going to be pretty prominently displayed at AmWriting podcast.comEPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jennie NashHey everyone, it’s Jennie Nash, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today, I want to talk about why most writers approach revision the wrong way, and how to use the Blueprint to do it right. Most people think revision starts with reading the whole manuscript, but the truth is I think that’s the last thing you should do. Before we dive into why I think that, and what I think you should do instead, I want to talk a little bit about what I call the “revision mindset.”When you finish a manuscript, it’s really tempting to think, okay, I’ve got it, I did it, I’ll just polish it up a little and be done. But real revision requires openness—being open to seeing the strengths and the weaknesses and the changes that you need to make in the manuscript to take it from good to great. This can feel really vulnerable. I know for me, at this point, I worry that changing one thing is going to break everything else. You feel so close to the finish line that you don’t want to touch anything. But holding that tightly—that kind of clenching—is exactly what stops the revision process from working. It’s important to remember that revising is big-picture work. It’s not line editing. Revising is stepping back, seeing what’s really on the page, and being willing to reshape it. So a “revision mindset” is that openness and that willingness to look at it, to be real about what’s there and what you want it to be, and to be willing to do what it takes to get it there. So a good revision is going to start with that mindset. And if we start there, you can begin to see why doing a full manuscript read-through from page one, marching straight through all the way to the end, is going to lead to trouble. There are two particular things that happen if you approach revision in that way.The first problem is when you go to read the book from page one chronologically all the way through—maybe you wrote it that way, maybe you didn’t—but in any case, if that’s how you approach revision, what tends to happen is that you fall into line editing instead of big-picture thinking. You begin to think, oh, this line is really great, or maybe I should fix that line, or maybe the flow here is a little off from this line to the other. You stay in the weeds, and you lose sight of structure and purpose and the big arc of your story or argument. The second problem with starting revision with a full manuscript read is when you ask somebody else to do that reading for you. Basically, what you’re doing is handing over your power to somebody else. You’re saying you look at this, tell me what you think, tell me how to fix it, tell me what’s wrong. And the problem with that is the tendency to get feedback and then just do everything they ask without thinking strategically through what you want to do or what you want your revision to accomplish. And a corollary of that problem is that usually when people are doing that full manuscript read for you, they’re just dumping all this stuff on you. They’re giving you this long litany of things that they see in the manuscript, or things that they think you should fix, and that list might include small things and big things and important things and not important things. It’s so easy to just get overwhelmed with the process.As a book coach, that’s what I see all the time. People get into revision, they get overwhelmed, they freeze up, they don’t know what to do first. It’s so easy to feel defeated. And that’s the moment when so many writers stall out and shelve the project. They put it in a folder on their desktop—the proverbial drawer—and it’s just away, and they’re done, and they can’t face it. And then the idea of going back to that huge amount of work and trying to figure it out becomes too daunting, and they just don’t. So I don’t recommend starting your revision with the full manuscript read.I have a different approach that I teach book coaches at Author Accelerator, and it’s called the “3D revision process.” It has three parts. The first is a process of inquiry. We use the Blueprint to ask key questions about the project. The second step is mapping everything out using the outline at the end of the Blueprint in a specific way. And the third step is strategizing. We look at that outline and we prioritize what changes need to be made using the stoplight strategy. I’m going to explain all these things in a minute, but the point is that this process gives you clarity, confidence, and a specific, actionable plan for approaching your revision—which is the dream.Okay, so let’s walk through it. Step one is this process of inquiry, and using the Blueprint to walk us through that. In an earlier episode, which I’ll link to in the show notes, I talked about why I created the Blueprint and why I refer to it as a process of inquiry, rather than a story structure method. The process of inquiry allows the writer to look at the foundational aspects of what they’re writing and to look at the work from this big-picture angle that usually they skip. There are 14 questions no matter which genre you’re working on, but they all start with these really basic questions, like, why are you writing this book? What’s your point? Who’s your reader, and what do they want? And are you giving it to them?Using the Blueprint to start a project, and answering these questions before you begin, is a really powerful way to think about what you want to do in the book, and a powerful way to get your vision clear. But when you have a finished manuscript and you go back to these questions, it’s a whole different ball game. It’s almost like a test. Can you answer these questions clearly and confidently based on what you know is there? Have you, in other words, put on the page the vision that you had in your head? So you go through the 14 questions honestly, answering them based on what you actually have, and it becomes this kind of assessment or challenge or test, like, did I do what I wanted to accomplish? And it’s really easy in those 14 questions to see if you didn’t. If you can’t confidently answer one of the questions, you know that that’s pointing toward a potential weakness in the book.If I give the 14 Blueprint questions to somebody who has written a manuscript that they love and that is close to the vision that they had for it, they’re able to knock those questions out and answer them with such authority and power, and it’s just an amazing thing to see. And when they can’t, and they’re coming to the questions with that openness I talked about before, then it’s like, okay, look, we still don’t have this piece nailed down. We still have to figure out this part of the story or the argument that you’re making, so it becomes a first pass at what is really there and what strengths and weaknesses are on the page.The second step in the “3D revision process” is to map out what you have, and we do this with the outline that is at the end of each of the Blueprints. If you’ve gone through the previous questions in the Blueprint, you’re looking at those foundational aspects, the structural elements of the story, all the things that hold up what you’ve written, and then the outline is, okay, here’s what I’ve actually written. If you’re at the start of a project, you want that outline to be no more than three pages. I’m very strict about this, and there’s a reason for that. It’s because we need to contain or constrain the creative process so that we can see what it is you’re wanting to make or to build. If someone goes on and on at that stage of the writing process, they’re not making good decisions and they’re not thinking about the big picture. But when you keep it to three pages, you’re forced to do that, and it’s a really awesome process.With revision, I loosen those rules, and the reason is that for revision, I want this outline to be what I call an “as-is outline.” So this is not what you intend to write, or what you hope to write, or what you plan to write, which is what it is at the beginning of a project. Now it’s what is actually there. So the as-is outline is capturing what you actually wrote, not what you intended to write. So you use the manuscript, obviously, to get this information and to pin down an outline of what is actually there. And there’s still a constraint. I suggest that you keep this as-is outline to about 10 pages, and you absolutely need to follow the rules of the genre that I outline in the Blueprint. Each of the genres has a specific outline and a specific thing that we’re looking for in that outline, and I designed that to solve for the things that people most often get wrong in that genre.I wrote a Substack post, which I’ll link to in the show notes, which explains what each of those things are, and I’ll link to that in the show notes. But you want to follow the rules of the outline, so that you make sure you’re not making the foundational problems of that genre. But then you have these 10 pages to capture what you’ve actually done on the page, and this as-is outline is where the big insights happen. When you step back and you look at this as-is outline, you can see where the momentum drops, where scenes or chapters repeat themselves, where your structure might be broken, where a subplot might take over, or, in nonfiction, where you veer off in some other direction. You can see where two memoir scenes are doing the same emotional work, or where a nonfiction chapter doesn’t drive towards the outcome that you’re leading your reader to. You can see so much in this outline, and that’s why this process is so powerful. The outline becomes a kind of X-ray of what you’ve actually written on the page.And that leads us to step three of the “3D revision process” which is you’re going to analyze that outline. You’re going to bring some strategic thinking to what you have there. Each of the Blueprints has a checklist for their particular outline, and you want to go through those checklists and really ask yourself, have I done this? Have I done that? Have I done the other? The kinds of questions that checklist asks are things like, am I giving the reader what they want and expect? Does my outline include the essential elements of my genre or category? What’s missing, what’s out of order, what’s unclear, what’s unnecessary? So it’s strategic thinking about the material that you have created.One of my favorite books about the creative process is Creativity, Inc., by Ed Catmull. It’s the story of the creation of Pixar, the company, and in that book, he talks about the Brain Trust, which is a very small group of writers who help each other to create the best possible stories. And they have this process in the Brain Trust that’s called giving good notes. And good notes are clear, they’re factual, they’re strategic, and that’s what you’re doing here for yourself. You’re giving yourself good notes. And if at this point you want to bring in a trusted partner to help you brainstorm and to help you look at your material and look at your notes and help you brainstorm solutions, this is a great time to bring in somebody to help you brainstorm and to look at your as-is outline and look at the notes that you’ve made for yourself, because instead of just handing the job over to somebody else, you’re saying, I have done this work of looking at my work in a strategic way. I know what I’ve done well, I know what my weaknesses are, and now I’m ready to solve those problems.So a great critique partner or a trusted beta reader or a book coach…obviously, are great people to bring in at this stage of the process. And what’s awesome is you’re not asking them to sit down and spend 15 or 20 hours reading a whole manuscript and trying to figure out what you want or what you were trying to do, or how it all lands for them, and giving you this info dump of information. You’re asking them to look at your Blueprint, to look at your answers to the 14 questions, and your as-is outline, and your analysis of that outline. And what you’ll be doing, either on your own or in partnership, is prioritizing what needs to happen in the revision.The tool that I teach coaches to do this is called the “stoplight strategy.” And what we’re doing is we’re trying to categorize the problems that we see in a manuscript by their severity. So red light problems are major structural issues, yellow light problems are medium-level issues, and green light problems are line-level edits. I designed the stoplight strategy because so many writers think that revision is about green light issues. So many of them start with line-level edits. And as I spoke about before, the tendency if you’re doing a full manuscript read is to fall into that rhythm of just seeing the green light things, or maybe a few yellow light things. But it’s very hard to see the red light things, which are the things that are going to bring your book down. They’re the fatal flaws, and most writers never find the time to actually look at those things.So they might be things like, I’ve got to start this novel in a totally different place, or I have to chop off five chapters of my memoir, or I have to restructure my entire nonfiction argument in a different way to make it land. But if you’ve approached the process that I’m explaining with that openness, that revision mindset, and that curiosity about how can I make this better, and if you’ve gone through it in this systematic way, and you found some red light issues, they tend not to sting quite so much. They tend to feel manageable. Okay, I can fix this one big thing. And if I fix this one big thing, the next thing that I need to fix is probably going to be obvious, and then the next one is going to be obvious. So you’re leading yourself to a prioritization of what needs to happen in the revision, rather than looking at everything in the same way, meaning every little green light issue has the same weight as the yellow light issues and the same weight as the red light issues.When we step out of doing the work chronologically, and we approach it in this more strategic way, we tend to focus on the red light issues. And again, they just tend not to feel quite so awful.So the next step in the process is you take that as-is outline, and you turn it into a “what’s-next outline,” a map of what the book is going to become in revision. On that outline, you mark what gets cut, what gets moved, what needs to be added, what shifts are you going to make because of the big changes, and you actually make them in the outline, so that the outline reflects where you’re going with your revision.And that’s how we close the gap between what you’ve written and what you want to write. That’s where you get closer to your vision of what you want this book to be. And that’s why this process is so powerful, because now you have a clear map of what you need to do in revision. You have a clear plan for how you’re going to go execute those things, so you’re not guessing and you’re not lost in overwhelm. You have this what’s-next outline that you’re going to go in and follow. And if you want to start at the beginning and make all the revisions in chronological order, you can. Or if you want to go in and fix the big red light issues first, you can. And you can use this what’s-next outline as a kind of external hard drive to hold all the changes that you want to make in your revision, so that you’re not holding them all in your head.Doing the revision in this way might actually mean going in and working on, let’s say, chapter 10, 11, and 12, and not touching anything else. It might mean going in and working on chapters 13 and 27 and not touching anything else. It’s not necessarily a chronological process. You’re going to follow the what’s-next outline and do what needs to be done in the manuscript.And once you do that, now is the time when a full manuscript read can make a lot of sense. Now you can go through from beginning to end knowing that you don’t have any big structural issues. There are no red light issues in this manuscript anymore. There are no yellow light issues. You don’t have to think about those or worry about those. You can go through and do the thing that most people do at the beginning of their revision process, which is polishing the prose and making everything sing and working on the line-by-line writing. You’ve already done the heavy lifting.If you’re excited about using the Blueprint in your revision and you want to work through it with a community of other writers who are doing it too, we’d love to have you join our upcoming Blueprint Challenge. You’re going to go through the Blueprint step by step along with people who are revising their books or people who are starting from scratch. It’s the same 14 questions, and people will be working on fiction, they’ll be working on memoir, and they’ll be working on nonfiction. KJ is going to be leading the charge of this Blueprint, and she’s going to be doing some write-alongs and AMAs and different things to support people while you work through those Blueprint questions. And I’m going to be in there a few times as well.This is the fourth time we’ve done the Blueprint Challenge at the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, and it gets better and better every time as more and more people do it. And you can find critique partners in there to help you with your Blueprint questions, maybe to look at your as-is outline, because they understand the process. They understand what’s going on. They understand what this is all about. And it’s just a really fun and powerful way to approach either a new book or the revision of a book that you want to work on.You can check the show notes for details on how to sign up for the Blueprint Challenge. This challenge works if you have a new idea that you want to work through, or a new-ish idea. You can be a little bit into it, and the Blueprint process is still really effective. And it also, of course, works really well if you’re revising something, or maybe you’re stuck revising something, or overwhelmed by the revision process that you’re in.You can start at the beginning of the Blueprint process and go through what I’ve just described here, and at the end of the challenge, be in a really great place to move forward with your project. We’d love to have you join us. So again, check the show notes for details.We give everyone who joins the Blueprint Challenge a downloadable copy of the Blueprint book and a workbook to work through. But if you’re not able to do the challenge at this time and you want to go through this process yourself, you can just grab a copy of my Blueprint book at any bookstore and work through those 14 questions and your outline at the end. However you do it, we’re excited to support you on your way.So until next time, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s on again!The Blueprint is one of our most popular offerings—Our 10 step plan to help you define the book you want to write before you write 100k words in search of it—but this time we’re going in fast and we’re knocking this puppy out in just 6 weeks. Starting January 12 and rolling though February 20, Jennie Nash and I (this is KJ) will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you’re just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision. We’ll have weekly assignments and live events (Mondays 6:30 PM EST/3:30 PM PST, recorded so no one missed anything). We’ll have updated access to all the Blueprint resources. There will be chat and solidarity and all the energy that comes from being a part of a community all working together to reach the same goal. Plus, every time we’ve done a Blueprint, somebody ends up with a book deal (listen here: An #AmWriting Success Story! ). That could be you. I LOVE Blueprint season. As Jennie says in the episode, the Blueprint comes from her realization that over and over again in her book coaching career (which is long and storied) she was seeing people come to her with the same mistakes—300-350 page manuscripts that lacked an inner structure, or an internal point, that meandered, were all plot and no heart or tried to offer instruction without ever conveying why it was so badly needed and what it would change for the reader.Her secret is that she developed the Blueprint for revision (more about that HERE) and then realized that using it from the get-go works, too.Look, I’m the first to tell you that the Blueprint doesn’t solve everything. But it helps… a lot. So get ready to Blueprint, whether you’re starting a new project or revising the current one (that’s where I’ll be)—and if you’re not already a supporter of the podcast (the only way to access the Blueprint) you should be. Oh I am so IN, counting the days.APPLICATIONS CLOSED What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can’t attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline. We’re keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won’t take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Rachael Herron’s latest: The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland, is, truly and in so many ways, the book only she can write. It pulls from every part of her life: identity, spirituality, a love of what’s magical in the world, her joy in crafting and her understanding of community and family. I, of course, wanted to know: how did you find the guts to put it all on the table? We talked about vulnerability, the challenges of writing the book of your heart, and learning to play with what you fear. Rachael says, “I’m spoiled for any smaller kind of writing. I’m not sure I can go back.”You’re gonna love it. Links from the Pod:The Seven Miracles of Beatrix HollandInk in Your Veins podcastRachel’s website: https://rachaelherron.comThe Jennifer Lynn Barnes “take my money” list.The War of Art, Steven Pressfield#AmReading:Careless People, Sarah Wynn-Williams This Is Not a Book About Benedict Cumberbatch, Tabitha Carvan Transcript below:EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, listeners, this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. I am KJ Dell’Antonia, and today I am bringing to you an interview with Rachael Herron. I just finished talking to Rachael, and I really enjoyed this. We talked about vulnerability. We talked about the challenges of writing the book of your heart. We talked about what should show you where that book is, the idea that the fear is where you should play. It’s, it’s a really great interview, and I know that you are going to enjoy it.Let me tell you a little bit about Rachael. She is the author of so many, so many books, thrillers and romances, and most recently, in the book that we are talking about, The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland. And I have to read you—Rachael’s going to describe this to you, but I got to read you the very short thing that basically made me say, take my money. And it went like this. A psychic tells Beatrix Holland that she’ll experience seven miracles and then she’ll die. No problem, though, Beatrix isn’t worried. She is above all things pragmatic. She vastly prefers a spreadsheet to a tall tale. Then the miracles start to happen.It’s a really great book, and more importantly, it’s a big book. It is a book where Rachael is writing what comes from deep inside, and it is a book that only Rachael could write. And that is why I asked Rachael to join me today. I hope that you enjoy this interview, and before I release you to it, I just want to remind you that the place to go to talk more about writing big and playing big in your writing life is anywhere that we are: the AmWriting Podcast, Hashtag AmWriting, AmWritingPodcast.com. Find us on Substack. Find us by Googling. Grab those show notes—you should be getting them—and join us for all the different ways that we need to come together in a community to give each other the strength to do our very best and biggest work.So I’m going to ask you to describe The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland to me. But also before I even do, I want to say how much I enjoyed it. And also so we have been spending most of our time on the AmWriting Podcast lately talking about writing—writing big and striving big and trying to do something different and bigger and better than what you have done before. We, I think as writers, we’re always trying to up our game, but there’s upping your game, and there’s reaching for the stars. And I felt like this book reached for the stars in a way that you maybe didn’t even set out to because to me, as someone who has read much of your work and followed your career and listened to a lot of the Ink in Your Veins Podcast and sort of just knows what’s going on with Rachael, this is the book that only you could write. So when I say this is your big book, I don’t mean, you know, that this is, is going to be a—I’m sorry—I don’t actually mean that 200 years from now, people will be passing this around.Rachael HerronExactly.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhat I mean is that this is you. This is and it’s you. All of your books are you, but this was really you in a way that felt downright magical to me. And it’s a magical book. So can you tell us a little bit about Beatrix Holland? And I will also say that even before I read it that you had me at the premise. So give us that.Rachael HerronWell, I don’t know how to talk about it now that you’ve talked me up so well. But thank you. Thank you for, you know, being honestly an ideal reader for this book. The Seven Miracles of Beatrix Holland is about a woman who is pragmatic and sensible and doesn’t believe in, you know, mumbo jumbo, not really worried about that kind of thing. But she is told by a psychic that she will experience seven miracles and then she will die and whatever, that’s not a big deal. It doesn’t bother her, because none of it is true. She doesn’t believe it. And then, me… miracles start to occur; things that even she cannot say are not miracles. And so therefore, maybe, what about that death thing that’s going to be preying on her mind?KJ Dell’AntoniaSo on top of that…Rachael HerronWho likes what the book is about…KJ Dell’AntoniaWe’re on an island, and there’s family secrets being revealed. And there are amazing family secrets that I think many of us would, I mean, they’re kind of awful, and I’ve talked to some people, and some people would be thrilled by them, and some wouldn’t, but yeah, just it just kind of keeps giving and giving and giving. And it’s funny because you say I’m the ideal reader, and actually, I don’t know that I necessarily would be…Rachael HerronOh, that’s even better…KJ Dell’AntoniaExcept, if somebody else had written this, I would not be the ideal reader. And I don’t think that’s because I know you. I think it’s because of the way that you wrote that. And when what I when I say, I wouldn’t be the ideal reader, I am getting a little tired of books that are giving me certain specific elements that are very trendy right now and that people feel obliged to give me. And you know you have, certainly, you’ve got LGBTQ characters in this, but also you have LGBTQ characters in your life. You are yourself such a character.Rachael HerronAs my wife is one of them over in the other room.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd this isn’t me saying I will only read books about queer people by queer authors. No, no, no. It’s that these are the thing, the elements of this book that sort of fall into that, that are just there, because that’s your life and what you see…Rachael HerronRight. Right.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd it just is perfectly natural. And of course, you have a lot of—and it’s in the sort of the same way that, of course, there’s a lot of witchiness and spirituality, because it’s part, it’s part of you and part of who you are. So it’s, it’s, it reads as authentic.Rachael HerronOh, that’s such a, that’s such a—that’s such a huge compliment. I wrote this book to please myself.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s what… that’s my next question. Don’t make me. Don’t make me interrupt you. What? That was my question. What was your intention? What did you set out to do with this book?Rachael HerronI—so this is my sixth genre, and I’ve been writing for—I’ve been published for 15 years, and this is my 26 or 27th book. I’ve lost, I can’t remember, maybe more. I have a list somewhere. And I have always thought about, you know, the market and what people want to read and what people want to hear, as you know, as you know this, you’ve been, you’ve been doing the same thing a long time.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd there’s nothing wrong with that.Rachael HerronThere’s nothing wrong with writing tree, market around market, exactly. But, but in this case, I wanted to write a book, and I wanted to have fun, and, and, and to be honest, I talk about this regularly is that I was going to self-publish it. I didn’t even want to deal with my agent coming back and saying, oh, you should edit it this way. Or, you know that this or that editor doesn’t want it, or they wanted to change in some way. I wanted to write a—I wanted to write a series of about found family, and I did, I did the Jennifer Lynn Barnes thing, the adored Taylor, where I just, I just made the list of everything I love the most. You know, I love witch stuff. I love practical magic. I love sisters. I love twins separated at birth. Why wouldn’t I? I love grumpy, grumpy, older women and fireflies and all of the things that I love the most. And I and I wrote that book, and it was one of the fastest books I’ve ever written, and not because I was rushing, just because it came easily. I was following my heart and following my gut, and I was also following my tarot cards. When I would get stuck, I would just pull a tarot card and see what it did with my subconscious and moved me forward, and I it was just play. And then I revised it quickly. I hired my favorite editor, edited it, got it copy edited, and then I decided, oh gosh, I don’t think I want to do a whole series, and I’m not sure if I want to self-publish, because that’s a lot of work, so I’ll just let my agent have it and to see if she could sell it. And she said, okay, I’ll take a look at it and see if I could sell it. And then it sold at auction because it was, I don’t… there’s no because there it was just no surprise. There’s no because there’s no because there’s never a because in publishing. You can also write the book of your heart.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, and then this—the rest of the story wouldn’t fall that way and it would never sell that way…Rachael HerronExactly. So it happened to go this way. And of course, a lot of it is a lot of it is luck. Cozy, cozy, queer fantasy is, you know, on an upswing right now, but that wasn’t, you know, a couple years ago. It took a couple years for it to come out.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhat do you love most? Yeah, what do you love most about this book and the experience?Rachael HerronThe thing I love most about the whole experience is that it has spoiled me for any other kind of writing; I think now, which may be a good or a bad thing. Ask me in a few years. But I kind of refuse now to write a book that I don’t desperately want to write, that I can’t stop thinking of. Because I’ve written a lot of books that I love, but they were, you know, what they were, they were my job. They were the book I sold. And now I will write the book that I sold. Now I will do, do what the contract says. And I don’t want to do that anymore. I just want to write the books that grab me and fascinate me and keep me in their thrall and what that means is that I have to, you know, focus on other ways to bring in money and to support. And really, I’m now, I’m supporting this writing passion with things like teaching and with, you know, you know, old backlist books. But I’m not, I’m not sure if I can go back. I don’t want to, I don’t want to be a work a day writer, writing to a contract that I don’t maybe love as much as other contracts I’ve had, right?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Rachael HerronSo, yeah, it’s spoiled me a little bit that way.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo are there other ways that this book feels bigger than things that you have written before? And this is again; we’re not denigrating our old work. We’re not…Rachael HerronNo, of course not. Of course not. I think that every—for me, it’s always been a goal that for every book that I write, it needs to be me playing bigger. It needs to be me playing truer, more, more free. And in this book, it’s only recently come up in my in my consciousness that I think that I needed to leave the United States and move around the world to New Zealand. And one of the reasons we left the states was because we were scared of the way LGBTQ rights are, are trending. There’s 867 pieces of legislation that are anti LGBTQ on the dockets right now in the United States, and that’s, that’s up by like 700% in the last four years, and it’s and it’s terrifying. But it I didn’t strike me until recently that this is my first novel that has a queer love story. It’s not a romance, but there’s a queer, queer love story inside it. And I finally, perhaps, felt safe enough to do that, you know, because it and when I came into the industry, I came in writing straight romances, because that’s what would sell. And when I would ask to write other things that was turned down by traditional publishing because they thought it wouldn’t sell. And then, you know, obviously self-publishers came along and said, oh, there is a market. Wow, look who wants to read these books. But, and so it was me kind of exposing myself in that way, and also me exposing myself in in the way that Beatrix does is that I always, I also just want to believe in magic. I want to believe I want to believe in things out there that I can’t explain, that are bigger than me, that I don’t actually need a name for or to understand. Because if I could understand something that is that big, something that is powering the universes, I can’t be expected to understand that. But can I, can I engage with it? Can I play with it in the in the exact same way that that Beatrix does? I think the answer is yes. And I did. When I would pull the tarot cards to help me write the next chapter if I got stuck, it was an actual process of engaging with a larger thing, saying, I don’t know how to write this book. Help me write this book. Asking for help in writing this book from, from whatever is out there. I don’t have, I don’t have big ideas about it, but yeah. So that was, that was, it was scary, and maybe that’s why I originally wanted to self-publish it, because then it, it felt like I could keep total control.KJ Dell’AntoniaSure.Rachael HerronIf I did that,KJ Dell’AntoniaOf course, you could keep anyone who wouldn’t like it from reading it then.Multiple Speakers[Both laughing]KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, okay, so maybe not so much. But no, I get it. It must have felt…Rachael HerronYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaLess vulnerable. So I was going to ask you next, what was hard about it. And I guess that’s, is that what was hard? But maybe something else was.Rachael HerronLet’s see, what was that? So that was hard, being that honest and vulnerable. And you know how when we write our novels, the thing that we want to do is be as truthful as possible, even though we’re just making up a pack of lies. It’s it feels more true often than even memoir can when we’re when we’re doing this. What else felt hard? Not much felt hard about this book. And I have had books that I have struggled with like I am wrestling muddy alligators for decades at a time. It feels like those that’s what those that’s what those books feel like. And there’s nothing wrong with those books. They were just; you know where I was at the moment. But this book, I it’s one of those gift books. It just, I must have struggled, and I do not remember. I honestly do not remember struggling.KJ Dell’AntoniaWell… I wish for…Rachael HerronI just remember it being joy.KJ Dell’Antonia…all of us. I wish that. I wish that journey for all of us. Oh. Yeah, yeah…Rachael HerronAs usual, I struggle whenever I get copy edits back. When I get copy edits back, I realize I don’t know how to write a sentence.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo if any of our listeners are sort of trying to find within themselves the freedom to write what they really want to write, and maybe can’t even figure out what the heck that would be, what would you say to them…asking for a friend?Rachael HerronI would encourage them to do one of those “ID lists”, to sit down and write a list of the thing that if you saw that something about it was on the box of the of the video cassette at the video rental store, because that’s how old I am, if you saw that listed on there, would you pick it up and rent the movie? Write down all of the things that you love the most and then actually use it as an exercise in creativity within constraints. How many of those things can you actually shove in there? Can you get them? Can you get them all in there? The other thing I like to ask myself when this question comes up is, if I am alone—well, it doesn’t actually matter if I’m alone or not—but if I, if I walk into the bookstore, any bookstore, and and I reject any “shoulds,” you know, should I look for that cookbook I was thinking about, or should I look for that new nonfiction I heard about on the podcast, if I’m if I’m released of all shoulds, where will I want to—and say somebody tells me you can only look at one section of the store today. What is the section of the store that I will go stand in front of and pull books off the shelf and look at? And perhaps that is a clue as to where you should be writing.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd how about freeing yourself up to actually do it. We can’t all move to New Zealand, Rachael.Rachael Herron[Laughing] Freeing yourself up do you mean to write the book, to write that book?KJ Dell’AntoniaTo write that book. I don’t. Yeah, most of my listeners—well, most of our listeners aren’t you know, we tend to be a podcast for professionals or people that are playing professional so, you know, these aren’t people who can’t put their butt in the chair, but to be vulnerable and admit that you want to go bigger and then do it. That’s a different question. Got any advice for that?Rachael HerronI do like to think of Steven Pressfield’s advice from his book The War of Art, where he talks about resistance with the capital R. And the place where you feel the most resistance, that’s your that’s your compass that is pointing north to what you what, what you are meant to do. And a lot of times when we think about these bigger stories that we may want to write someday, the someday, right when I get there, I’ll write it someday, that you’ve already got this compass pointing you there, and it is terrifying. And the fear of how can I do that now is maybe the thing that says that you do not need to put aside the fourth book in the series that you’re writing that you need to finish before you write this next series. You can do that. But maybe listening to that resistance, listening to that fear, and dedicating 15 minutes, three times a week, to playing with the idea of this book. If you were to start to write it anytime in the future, you can, you can at least be courting it and flirting with it, making it know that you are going to be available to write that, that book of your heart, because everybody, every we all need that. We all need that. We also need to pay the bills and do the professional writing and do all that too.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah.Rachael HerronBut…KJ Dell’AntoniaWe got to; we got to try to do the biggest things we can. All right. Well, that’s a great place to lead into my next question, which is, what have you read recently where you really thought the writer was playing big?Rachael HerronCan I give you two?KJ Dell’AntoniaOf course!Rachael HerronOkay, the first one, and strangely, these are both nonfiction. So make of that what you will, Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism by Sarah Wynn-Williams, who is a QE. Have you heard of this one?KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah. This is the…Rachael HerronOh yeah, the Facebook book.KJ Dell’AntoniaThe Facebook book. We moved fast, and we did indeed break things.Rachael HerronWe did move fast. We broke things. And Sarah has a uniquely Kiwi sense when she’s looking at them, because she goes in and she’s really watching it all happen. And I don’t care about Facebook. I don’t actually engage with all of the stuff that said about it. And this book is written basically it felt like a thriller. It was—I couldn’t put it down. And she was fearless, the things that she said. No wonder Zuckerberg wanted to silence it. He looks like a moron. And she was absolutely fearless. And it was one of those schadenfreudy, why am I reading this? Why can’t I put this down? But I can’t put it down. And I think it was because of her bravery.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Rachael HerronSo I really enjoyed it for that. And then the other one I want to tell you about is kind of on the flip side. And you may not have heard about this one. It’s called This Is Not a Book About Benedict CumberbatchKJ Dell’AntoniaNot only have I heard about this one, it’s entirely possible that I sent it to you.Rachael HerronReally?!KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this book! All right, go on. Go on.Rachael Herron…The Joy of Loving Something--Anything--Like Your Life Depends On It, by Tabitha Carvan. Oh, my god, isn’t it brilliant? She writes about how, yes, she does love Benedict Cumberbatch, who I’d really never considered very much in my lifeKJ Dell’AntoniaNo, I couldn’t pick him out of a lineup of youthful-ish…Rachael HerronYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaBritish-ish…Rachael HerronYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaActor-ish,Rachael HerronAnd she loves him, loves him, loves him, no, no joke, loves him. And the whole book is about recovering from any shame around loving the thing that you were put on this earth to freaking love with your whole heart, no matter what anybody says. And I really think the Benedict Cumberbatch is a really great thing to tie this whole book in.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt had to be something like that, because if it was like knitting, I mean,Rachael HerronRight, exactly.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay, that’s fine, honey, you can love your knitting. And you know it also is…Rachael HerronExactly,KJ Dell’AntoniaYou know, it also is…Rachael HerronThis is not a book about yogurt. Who cares, you know. But Benedict Cumberbatch is funny to say. He’s actually kind of funny to look at when you do look at him, when you do look him up. And it’s so evocative, and it is, and it is something that people would snicker at.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Rachael HerronRight? People would snicker.KJ Dell’AntoniaStill even… yeah, it’s like, she snickers it herself. But also she’s like, okay, why? Why is that, you know? Why would it be? What if I were super obsessed with the stats of some obscure ball—baseball player, no one would mock that. If I wanted to watch every football game played by, you know…Rachael HerronThat blew my mind when she said that, of course, of course. So, and she goes deep. She’s again, she’s so brave. She plays big. She goes into what it means. How does it like? How does it affect her husband? What does she think about how it affects her husband? Like she goes all of the places. I’m so, I bet you did tell me about it, and I’m so glad that you did.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love, I love. I keep extra copies to force people to read it. I tie people up in like, you know parts of my house and force them… no. I don’t really do that.Rachael Herron[Laughing] I love that. But, and what are those all have in common? I think that what are, the both those books have in common? Is these women who, who, at any point, anybody in the whole world could have told them that’s not really a good idea to write.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, that’s exactly right.Rachael HerronAnd it would’ve been true.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. It would have been true. It would have been excellent advice.Rachael HerronExcellent advice not to write that book.KJ Dell’AntoniaReally, you should not admit that you love Benedict. Or really, I mean, you’re never going to work in this town again, man.Rachael HerronYou’re never going to work in this town again. And the whole, during the whole book of Careless People, she’s talking about being inside, she is inside the beast that is doing the damage. And that’s and that’s brave too. And I don’t think Seven Miracles is as brave as those books, but there was, but there was bravery and resistance around moving, moving toward, really putting yourself on display.KJ Dell’AntoniaRun towards the fear.Rachael HerronAnd that’s what we writers do.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s our theme.Rachael HerronYeah, run towards the fear. Even if you can only give it 15 minutes a day or so, three times a week, that’s enough. That’s good enough to tell your bravery. It should come back more.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes.Rachael HerronScooch, door bravery, little scooches.KJ Dell’AntoniaEdge towards the fear. Tip toe.Rachael HerronOh, that’s beautiful. I love that you’re doing this series.KJ Dell’AntoniaWe love it too. So, yeah, it’s going great. Well again, thank you. I was really excited to talk to you about this book. I was really excited to read this book. I enjoyed the heck out of it, and I think, listeners, that you would too. You should absolutely check it out as well as all the rest of Rachael’s work. Links of course, as always, in the show notes, and follow Rachael in all the places. Although, to me, the best thing to do is to go and listen to the Ink in Your Veins Podcast. Because obviously, people, you’re a podcast listener, you wouldn’t be here. Where do you most like to be followed, Rachael?Rachael HerronAt Ink in Your Veins or on Rachaelherron.com/write, if you are a writer and want to get on the on the writing encouragement list. But I just want to thank you for doing this amazing show and for having me. I feel very, very honored to be here.KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, thank—thank you. All right. And as we say in every episode, until next week, kids, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hi all! In honor of Thanksgiving, we decided to share what we’re doing to get MORE of what we’re grateful for in our writing lives—as in, try not just to give a nod to gratitude but actually increase the things we do to feel it. Enjoy! Are you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I’ve got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who’s glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn’t been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who’s read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters.Jess LaheyI’m Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Atlantic.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen. My newest novel is called Thrown for a Loop, and you can find it at bookstores everywhere.Jennie NashAnd I’m Jennie Nash. I’m the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And I’m the author of the Blueprint books that help you get your book out of your head and onto your page. And today, the four of us have gathered to talk about gratitude. It’s the week of Thanksgiving, and we’ve been thinking about the things that we’re grateful for in our writing life, and how we want to celebrate that and amplify that. So we thought we’d share that all with you today. KJ, do you want to start by talking about what you’re grateful for?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I actually managed to give this some thoughts. Since we did, we did talk about it. And I should say we kind of got the idea from Laura Vanderkam’s newsletter, which is really great, and you should subscribe. She was just talking about how, you know, it’s one thing to be grateful for things like, “Whoo, I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place,” but it’s another thing to say, “And because I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place, this week I will make a point of going for a walk, you know, tonight with my dog, in a place that I love,” or something along that. Her point was: come up with something and then actually do something to amplify that for yourself. So you’re not just sitting around, you know, writing a gratitude journal. You’re actually trying to do something about it. So having announced that I am totally prepared for this—I’m not really, but I kind of am. Okay. So one of the things that I am grateful for this year, a little weirdly, is AI, and it is not for the reasons anyone might think. I’m primarily grateful—I’m grateful that the spurt of AI in everything that I read, from Goodreads book reviews to things in my inbox to, I’m sorry, actual articles in actual newspapers… it’s become so recognizable. The stuff that is written, the pattern, the three examples, the particular words that are invariably used. Oh, somebody threw one out the other night—oh, in the real estate world, if it says something is “nestled between two things,” that’s AI. Anyway, that made me realize that the last thing I want is something else to do any of this for me. I just don’t. I just, you know, sometimes you sit around going, “Oh, somebody just write this book for me—” you know what? No. No. Because I don’t want my book to be nestled between a rock and a hard place or whatever. So, so no. So what I’m doing to sort of bring that home for myself is I’m actually trying to be more present, in particular within the AmWriting—the AmWriting universe. So I’ve been doing something that I’m calling Hashtag AmWriting ‘Almost’ Every Day. It’s really nowhere close to every day. Don’t worry about getting your inbox full. But I am—you know, that’s actually me. If I have time and something to say, or something to whine, or some write-alongs to share, or an idea, then I’m going to put that out there for y’all. And hopefully you’re going to comment back, and you probably won’t bother to use AI to do that, because that would be really silly. So that’s a thing I’m doing, and a thing that I’m grateful that I’ve suddenly come to the realization of.Jess LaheyWhat’s funny, KJ, is that I can absolutely tell when you’re really enjoying writing, because it—it just comes through, as it does with most people. But it’s been… your newsletters have been really fun, and you’re really in it. And I love reading them. I absolutely love reading them.Jennie NashIt gets a little sassy.KJ Dell’AntoniaThanks!Jess LaheyShe does. She does get a little sassy.Jennie NashI love it.Jess LaheyYep, the Shirley Jackson comes out in her, and it’s really fun. I like that a lot.Jennie NashJess, do you want to go next?Jess LaheyYeah. Sure. So newsletters have come to mean a lot to me. I have a lot of drafts sitting there, some of which I don’t think—I may never publish. But I’m really, really grateful that writing has, for my entire life, been the way that I process what I’m thinking about. I do it a lot by talking, but when I’m alone in the woods, like I am right now in Vermont, writing is how I figure things out, and I’m so grateful for that, because, you know, as I wrote about in my newsletter, I’m dealing with breast cancer, and I’m about to have surgery, and some of that stuff is really, really scary. And how I think about it, and how I manage it, is through writing about it. And I’m just—I’ve never been so grateful to have, even if it never goes out into the world, a place to write about that stuff. And, and, yeah, I’m so grateful for the words. Absolutely.Jennie NashThat’s so beautiful, that in the scariest, most difficult time, it’s the most natural thing that you turn to.Jess LaheyYeah, I think there are some people who pour themselves out in watercolors, or some people—whatever. The words, man, they’re the best.Jennie NashVery cool. Sarina, what about you?Sarina BowenYeah, well, as always, my gratitude runs toward the granular and the practical. I guess I can’t ever get away from that. So I am grateful to deadlines. Last month, I had a really difficult deadline. I had to scramble and set everything else aside and keep myself from panicking. And I did it. I actually—I turned it in, and then I immediately went on a book tour for a different book. So that was a difficult experience and a difficult month, and I’m not used to quite so much deadline pressure. But the wonderful thing is, is that I have these deadlines because of the work that I have placed with publishers, and I wouldn’t want to change a single thing about that. So even if I need to get a little better about my timing, I recognize that—even in the darkest day—that it’s a gift to have this problem. And then I’m also grateful for coffee shops, because that has been a place for me to work this year. And I never did this before. I was one of those people who had to be at home, in a room all by myself, in the quiet, writing. And suddenly that became really difficult for me. The quiet was too much quiet. There was too much doom scroll, there was too much self-reflection. And it really started the day after the election, actually. Like, I sort of ordered KJ to meet me out at a coffee shop because I needed to be where other people were. And it was really grounding—like, there we were, and the barista is a familiar face, and everything was fine inside that shop, you know, which was, in itself, a little bubble of privilege. But, but just being out in the world, seeing the rest of the world keep chugging, has really focused me. And I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of different coffee shop and library settings in the intervening couple of months—and, well, almost a year now—and it’s felt fantastic. So I am excited that there are places where I’m allowed to go pay way too much for a cup of coffee and then sit there for two hours, and I will continue to do it.Jess LaheyCan I add a layer to the Sarina—to the Sarina stuff? Because I got to go to, as some of the other people talking today did, got to go to one of Sarina’s events. And, you know, we love Sarina, and we just rave about Sarina, and I think she’s a genius, and I think her writing is wonderful. But I was in a room of people who knew her work. Like, at one point, someone asked about whether or not she was going to be writing more in, like, The Company Series, which is one of the series she started to write. And there are a couple books—in that one. And then when she’s like, “Oh, I don’t—I think the time for that is over,” and people were like, “Awww,” and they were sad, and they knew characters really well. There was a die-hard fan of one of her books—I think it was Stay. And I just—I’m so grateful to be able to go to those events and see that other people love Sarina as much and respect Sarina’s work as much as I do. And my whole family was there. So my kid, who’s been hearing about, you know, my friend who wrote—writes “kiss me” books, he was like, “Man, people are into her books.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I told you. I’ve been trying to tell you.” And it was great. It was really fun to see people that into it.Sarina BowenWell, the thing is that romance readers really are special. I’m not saying there aren’t—there aren’t fandoms in other genres as well. But it’s something about a romance novel involves characters that aren’t afraid to say how they feel, and that is how romance readers are about the books. They are not afraid to say what they feel, and they are there for all the feelings in the first place. And it is really a great spot to be. So for every writer who ever looked down at the romance section of the bookstore, I got news for you. It’s really nice over there.Jess LaheyIt’s great. The people were so great.Jennie NashAnd we have gratitude for the romance—the romance readers too.Jess LaheyYeah.Jennie NashI love all of your—your gratitude’s. Mine is—I guess I would say that I am grateful for having the identity of a writer as a thing that I take with me wherever I go. And what I mean by that is I have been traveling to see family, and there were airplane troubles, lots of different airplane troubles, actually, on this particular trip, and lots of delays, overnight delays, sitting in airports for long periods of time, all of that, and I am never sad about those things. I’m almost never at a total loss. Like, you tell me that I have to spend six hours at the San Francisco airport, and I’m fine, because I can fill the time—not just, not just fill it like, “Oh, I can get through this,” but I can actually have really productive, useful, awesome time for six hours in the San Francisco airport. And if I have to spend a night at a terrible airport hotel, and, you know, just all the things—and I was so grateful when I thought about it in that way, that here’s a thing that I can take with me wherever I go, that all I need is something to write on. Could be my phone. It could be a piece of airport hotel notepad and paper. It could even be a torn-out page of a magazine that I bought at the airport. And I—I can be somebody. I can be somebody doing something that I find interesting and good and useful. And I just am so grateful for that. What an amazing thing to be. And obviously holiday travel is a special kind of thing, but just the thought that—that that comes with me, no matter where I go or what I do or what happens in my life—I have that, and I’m very grateful for that. So I don’t know, KJ, in terms of how am I going to bring that forward or exercise it or do it? I guess—I guess I’ve got to hope for smoother travels.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou should just get stuck in more airports, but you don’t want to get stuck in more airports? I feel like that should be your goal now.Jennie NashI guess if you take it to a very granular, practical level, like Sarina does—always have a notebook with you, man. That’s what I got to say, and a working writing implement. It saves the day.Jess LaheyAnd then you text the word “sticker” to the rest of us, and we know, “Oh, man, those travel stickers—those are worth double stickers.” We always say that travel stickers are double stickers.Jennie NashIt’s so true. It’s so true. Well, we just wanted to pop in here today to share this gratitude episode with you all and to give you some things to think about, about your writing life and your writing practice. And we hope that everyone is having a day filled with gratitude. KJ, do you want to say other things?KJ Dell’AntoniaI wanted to say that I think we’re all grateful for the way this community is slowly but steadily growing. I’ve been doing Write-Alongs with a bunch of people lately. We’ve been seeing people in the actual Substack chat, which, if you…Jess LaheyThe chat is fun.KJ Dell’AntoniaUse Substack chat, that’s great. And you know—you know what it is, and if you don’t, that’s fine. You can totally hit the same results by talking to us in the comments, which is the same as comments on anything. I just—I just really like sort of seeing the same people and faces pop up over and over again, and feeling the same kind of “less alone” about this that I used to feel back in the early days of blogging. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have pretty much, you know—I’ll put a thing on Instagram, and then I’m out of there because, again, it’s—there’s, there’s so much slop now. I’m not really doing a lot of other things. But I am here, and there are other people here, and I think that’s so fun.Jennie NashIt’s really fun. And we will continue to be here with—with lots of offerings, from Nerd Corner episodes to Write Big episodes to KJ Writing Along episodes, and we’re in the chat to help and answer questions, and we have other things up our sleeves too. So keep tuning in.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. All right.Jess LaheyAll right, everyone until next time around, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jess here. Sarina and I discuss audiobook narration this week and explain how narrators get hired, paid, and dish some inside baseball on audiobook production. Transcript Below!Your subscription = good podcast karma. Sign up now to support the Podcast!SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, listeners, did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners and ad free too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now. If you’ve got a work in progress and you’d like to submit the first page for consideration for a Booklabs First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show notes and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklabs episode. Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. I’m your host, Jess Lahey, and this is the podcast about getting all the words done, writing all the things, writing, short things, long things, proposals, queries, poetry, all the things. But today, Jess and Sarina are bringing you the book nerdery stuff, the best stuff. This is The Publishing Nerd Corner. I love this new segment. I’m super excited about it, but first, my name is Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation. You can find my journalism out there various places, including The New York Times. And you can find my newsletter at jesslahey.substack.com.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4, and it also will be published that same day as an audio book.Jess LaheyWhoo so...Sarina BowenAnd that is what...Jess LaheyYeah, we’re going to talk about audiobooks today, because Sarina knows so much about this—because she has to, like, hire her own narrator sometimes and stuff like that. All I know is, I narrated my own audiobook, and it was super fun, and I loved it. But we want to talk about all the aspects of how audiobooks work—all of it. There’s lots of fun stuff to talk about. Where would you like to start, Sarina?Sarina BowenThat is a good question. So, most of the time, if you are selling your book to a big publisher, audio rights will be included in your contract, and your publisher is therefore responsible for making the audiobook. You might be consulted about the choice of narrators, and that audio will magically appear finished on your publication date. But if you are a self-published author, then the existence or not of your audiobook is completely under your control. Audio has been the shining star of publishing for the last decade in that it is the growth story. I’m not sure how that has worked the last couple of years, but audio was one of the only areas of traditional publishing that demonstrated double-digit growth for much of the last decade. A lot of that has to do with the popularity and availability of streaming as a way that people listen to these books. Obviously, the technology shift made a huge difference, but so did things like cellular networks that work well and buffer easily. So...Jess LaheyCan I add one little, tiny thing? There’s been another reason that I think that audio has done so well, and that’s the acceptance within the education world—thanks to researchers like, for example, Dan Willingham and other people who study the brain and how we process and learn—that audiobooks are reading. From a processing perspective, from a learning perspective, listening to audiobooks is reading, and anyone who is telling you otherwise is not looking at the science. And so, this has been an incredible way—when you look at kids, for example, neurodivergent kids, dyslexic kids, kids who need another way to take in the information. It used to be that audio was like, “Oh no, that’s cheating,” and it is absolutely not cheating. So, I think that acceptance within the education world has been so great. And, you know, yes, it is a small part of the growth, but I do want to put that plug in there.Sarina BowenYeah. So, the way that, traditionally, audiobooks have been made is that a narrator goes into a booth and reads the book after having prepped it a bit in terms of maybe reading the whole book, maybe reading parts of the book, understanding what they’re going to bring to the table. If it’s fiction, then they’ll be looking to see what are the major voices, because audio narrators change their delivery to indicate voices. And one thing that’s interesting about the trend where we are in audio right now is that it’s very trendy for a nonfiction author to read their own work if they’re comfortable with it. That is widely done in nonfiction.Jess LaheyAnd it was one of my favorite parts of my process. And I have to say, nothing affected me more on an emotional level. I cried at the end of narrating both books. I had to pause at the very end—at the last couple, the last paragraph. It was such a moving experience for me to narrate my own book. And I have to say, it wasn’t a slam dunk that they were going to let me do that. I, you know, I worked really hard to be able to do that, because for some people, that’s just not their bag—it’s not something that comes naturally to them. But it was, for me anyway, my favorite part of the process.Sarina BowenYeah, so if you had written a novel, though, we wouldn’t be—Jess LaheyNo.Sarina Bowen—having that same conversation.Jess LaheyI’m not an actor. I don’t have the chops for that.Sarina BowenWell, a lot of authors of novels don’t understand this. It’s not that they don’t understand how their own book should sound and be delivered—it’s that what they don’t understand is that the way that novel audio sounds in 2025 is a specific trend in the way that readers want their books delivered. The books are very much acted. It wasn’t always this way. There were times when audio really sounded more like somebody just reading—and that’s okay. Like, there’s lots of room for style in terms of the way that audio fiction works. But right now, the trend in audio fiction is very much a performance. And one way that you can see this—and it continues to expand as a trend—is the trend toward something called duet audio, which means, for example, in romance, if there’s a male hero and a female heroine—and the way that most of my books work is that if the chapter is in the POV of a man, then the male narrator reads it. But of course, when he comes to a line of dialogue delivered in the heroine’s voice, he softens his tone a bit to indicate that she’s speaking, but he reads the whole chapter.Jess LaheyThey’re always amazing—that’s amazing to me when readers can do that. I mean, Davina Porter is the one that comes to mind—like, in the Outlander books, when she switches whose voice she’s reading. She switches whose voice—it’s down to the accent—and you don’t for a second think, “Oh, that’s the same person reading all of this.” And some of the narrators you use, Sarina, in your books—the same thing. My brain absolutely believes that I’m hearing a female voice versus a male voice. It’s a really incredible talent.Sarina BowenYeah. In fact, if this is of interest to you, there is a book called Thank You for Listening by Julia Whelan.Jess LaheyIt’s so good!Sarina BowenWho is one of the few who’s been very successful as both an author and a narrator, and her book is a little bit of inside baseball about narrators. And it’s a delight.Jess LaheyIt’s fun. It’s really fun.Sarina BowenOkay, so what I was just describing, though—where he reads a chapter and then she reads a chapter—we refer to that as dual narration (D-U-A-L). But there’s a new trend called duet, whereby in the same book, he would read the chapter, but if there was a line of dialogue from a woman, the female narrator would read that line.Jess LaheyWhich is more similar to me in terms of how it feels with, like, ensemble narration. Like, for example, Lincoln in the Bardo had a full cast of many characters, and every part was someone different, and those actors would chime in with their parts. So, same—similar idea.Sarina BowenWell, sometimes, sometimes a “full cast” audiobook just means that there are lots of very short chapters or segments. But to have every single line of dialogue cut in is really different than just saying a book has a full cast.Jess LaheyThat’s true. Actually, that’s true.Sarina BowenSo the thing about duet specifically is that the engineering part of it—the post-production—is really expensive because the engineer has to cut together this script, and actually preparing the script is also a lot of work. So it’s a pretty big deal to make a duet book. It’s more expensive. The cost of making a one-POV narrator book or a dual book is between, let’s say, $300 and $600 per finished hour.Jess LaheyWhat do you mean by that, Sarina?Sarina BowenSo, if you look at Audible right now, you can see the lengths of all of my audiobooks down to the minute. So it might say eight hours and thirty minutes. That means the finished length of that book is eight hours and thirty minutes. And the cost of making that book will be 8.5 times some number between $300 and $600. But if I did that book as duet, then it might be $1,000.Jess LaheyOkay, all right.Sarina BowenSo, every audiobook I’ve ever made cost between, like, three grand and seven grand. And if I were doing duet, then I would be hitting numbers more like $10,000.Jess LaheyAnd make no mistake—there are stars in the audiobook world who, like celebrities in films, can earn more per finished hour for their books. And that demand is really important because they have a vibe. There are fans of particular narrators who will listen to anything that narrator reads.Sarina BowenYeah, like my kids and I used to listen to audio narrated by Meryl Streep, and I’m sure she broke the curve for how much that cost per finished hour. But you should also know that the finished hour is not the same as how long it takes the narrator to do the job. So, if I’m paying a narrator $350 a finished hour, he is spending more time on that book, and his actual pay per hour is lower—like 150 bucks or whatever. It depends on his ratio of how fast he can narrate a book. And also, narrators’ voices get tired. They can’t narrate forty hours a week—although, actually, some of them probably do—but, you know, it’s a hard job. So, if you’re thinking, “I’m not going to pay someone $350 an hour to narrate my book,” you should know that it doesn’t really work that way, and that really is the price for a reason.Jess LaheyAnd they’re fun—just for some fun inside baseball things. Like, for both of my books, narration hours when we worked—our starting time in the morning was pushed up a little bit because no one wants to get an audiobook narrator right after they woke up. Your voice is not primed. Your voice has gunk in it. So, we would start later. You really could only go—you know, with my first book, I think we went until, like, three in the afternoon or something. You have to take a break for lunch, and then after you eat lunch, you get all these weird secretions, and it takes time to get back into it. There’s just some weird stuff that I didn’t count on—like it was better for me to be hungry (except then my stomach would make noises, which the microphones would pick up) than to stop and eat and have to get back in the groove. Because when you’re in the groove, you kind of don’t want to stop. There was just so much more to it than I ever anticipated. It was a blast, but it took me almost a whole week. We had scheduled five days for The Gift of Failure—it’s like 78,000, 80,000 words, or something like that. We scheduled five full days; we ended up taking four. And I didn’t have pickups for that book, but I did have pickups for The Addiction Inoculation. There was a lot more scientific language in that book that we had to do some pickups for. So, yeah, it’s—Sarina BowenPickups means edit.Jess LaheyYeah. So, there were a couple days where I came in—and so I actually did The Addiction Inoculation during COVID. I was at a studio here locally in Vermont with my director, the producer of the audio in one ear of my headphones, and my producer from Harper in my other ear, in New York or wherever she was. We were working in a sound booth in Vermont. And, you know, in the evening, that producer would go over the audio and make sure that all of the words were pronounced correctly and everything was good. And then the next day, we would do pickups along with the new work as well.Sarina BowenRight. So, the editing that happens is really down to the word. Like, the engineer will sit there and, you know, go right into that space between the two words that you said and put the new thing in. And when a professional narrator is in the booth, they operate in a way that’s called punch and roll, which means that they will stop when they make an error, go back—looking at that visual sine wave of the audio on their screen—find the pause between the words, go right to that spot, and then roll forward by hitting record again and then speaking the word that they meant to say.Jess LaheySome audiobook narrators use a clicker too. It’s a way of being able to see on the wave where you, you know, might need to go back and figure something out.Sarina BowenYeah. So, um, there’s a lot that goes into this. Humans make a lot of noises that we’re trying not to hear. Like, some engineers will go in and dampen the breath sounds.Jess LaheyYeah. Yep.Sarina BowenYou know, they’ll go in and take out the “heeeeh.”Jess LaheyActually, I had to change my clothes. My sweater was making too much noise. It turns out when I narrate, I use my arms a lot—so I actually had to learn how to narrate with my arms resting on the armrests but only using my lower arms. So, I look like the robot in Lost in Space with my little—my little—and also, my hair had to be up because my hair made noise too. And you can’t wear jewelry, you know, like bracelets and things like that also make noise.Sarina BowenYep. And narrators all have stories like, “I can’t eat Indian food before I narrate,” or “When I go in the booth after lunch, I strap pillows around my midsection.” Like all this stuff to make sure that the sound quality works. So, that brings us to a difficult topic in how audiobooks are made, which is that a lot of books are flooding the market with AI voices. And everybody’s heard AI voices before—for example, if you’ve ever been on TikTok and you hear that weird, artificial female voice reading the—I don’t even know how to explain it—but that’s primarily why I never go on TikTok, because I cannot stand that artificial voice.Jess LaheyI listened to—I listened to an article yesterday with The New York Times that was AI-generated that was better than those awful TikTok voices, but still, you know—still AI.Sarina BowenYeah. So, I am not going to spend our time discussing whether those voices are good or not, but it has really gotten messy. At the beginning of AI narration, some platforms said, “No way, no how. We will never have one.” And then a lot of platforms suddenly allowed for it. So, there’s lots of AI narration in the world, and it’s causing real havoc, especially among people whose livelihoods are being affected by a drop in audio work. I really believe that the readers of my books care very much about the delivery, and it’s hard for me to think that an AI voice could carry the kind of emotion that romance readers are looking for in an audiobook. So, I hope—I hope that audio listeners continue to demand quality, because it’s a big deal.Jess LaheyAt least right now, your listeners—you know, they love Teddy Hamilton. Or, you know, there are audiobook narrators who are very specifically—people get excited when they see a particular narrator’s voice attached to your work. And I think—and again, in Thank You for Listening, there’s that good—she goes into great detail on that whole inside baseball of narrator fans. And like, Teddy Hamilton has fans—has a fan base. And I hope that persists, because I think there’s real value in that. I hope there’s real value in that, and I hope people continue to value it.Sarina BowenYeah, and I don’t think that’s going away anytime soon. People really aren’t clamoring to see AI Meryl Streep on the screen at the movies—and, you know, paying a movie ticket price for that. And I believe that in narration land, yeah, it’s the people coming up that will suffer the most—the newer narrators who don’t have a fan base yet and are struggling to get work. So, yeah—anyway, that is one thing. And we could talk about how to get your book done in AI production now, but I think we won’t, because...Jess LaheyYeah.Sarina BowenBecause that’s, you know, not—you can figure that out yourself if that’s interesting to you. But, um, I believe that humans are still the way to go here.Jess LaheyThere was an interesting note. So, when I said that I worked really hard to get the chops to narrate my own audiobook—I mean, I went to go work for Vermont Public Radio. I recorded these commentaries. And these commentaries that my producer taught me how to record—there was a really interesting note she gave me, which is that these commentaries are really short, like just a couple of minutes—less than three minutes. And one of the things she taught me is that when I’m reading these commentaries, if at the end I look up at my producer and smile and make eye contact with my producer that it makes the narrator be even more connected to the listener. And she’s absolutely right. You could hear a difference in the commentary when I was making eye contact with my producer, and I find that fascinating and intangible and magic. There is a magic in that that I hope we do not lose with AI.Sarina BowenYes, absolutely—and that is a fantastic place to close this episode.Jess LaheyAbsolutely.Sarina BowenLet’s not lose that magic.Jess LaheyIf there are things you would like us to talk about when it comes to the nerdery of publishing—in the Publishing Nerd Corner—if you’re a huge fan of publishing nerdery, I also would love to recommend that you go over and follow Jane Friedman immediately, because she is such a great writer about the nerdery stuff in publishing. But we will continue to talk about it. If there are things you would like to know about, please let us know.But until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output—because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hey all, Jess here. Sarina and I both love these episodes where we, two certified nerds, get to hang out with likeminded individuals and dish. This week, we are going to talk about one of Jess’ most niggling worries: what does it mean to a publisher and an author to “earn out” a book advance and what does it mean to both if that never happens?Transcript available below, but making good ones isn’t free—help support the Podcast below!Your subscription = good podcast karma.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey listeners. Did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners—and ad free, too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now! If you’ve got a work-in-progress and you’d like to submit the First Page for consideration for a Booklab: First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show note, and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklab episode? Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be!Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey—welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast! This is a podcast about writing all the things—this is the podcast about writing short things, long things, you know. And specifically, where we’re going to focus these days is on a little episode we’re calling The Publishing Nerd Corner with Jess and Sarina. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, and at jesslahey.substack.com.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4th , and I am so excited. And today’s topic actually pertains to what happens when you have a book that’s publishing and everybody has all these big expectations. We’re going to cover one of them, which is earning out your advance—or not—and how to frame your thinking around this.Jess LaheyYeah, first. I mean, the way this Nerd Corner works is because Sarina tends to have more of the business acumen and the nerd acumen. I let her do a lot of teaching me. But one thing I would like to state at the very beginning of this—and apologies, I didn’t look up the stats; Sarina might know them—the number of books that actually earn out their advance if it’s nonfiction. For example, my book that we’re going to talk about today is nonfiction, and so I got a big advance based on a—and we’re going to talk about that. We’re going to talk numbers. It makes authors really nervous, but I think it’s important. The number of authors that actually earn out is really, really low—like, much lower than you expect. . So “earning out” can mean a couple of different things, and we’re going to talk about that today. But to set the scene, we’re going to use my book The Gift of Failure as the example for earning out. as the example for earning out. So I’ve sold a lot of books—like, this book was a success by any measure. It was on The New York Times bestseller list. I had Kristen Bell go on Instagram and say, “Buy this book, it’s so great,” and it sold out across the country. I am not complaining here; I am just saying that it makes me extremely nervous that technically I have not earned out my advance on The Gift of Failure. Again, to set the scene, The Gift of Failure was based originally—it came out of an article that went viral at The Atlantic on why parents need to let their children fail. There was a big auction for this book that lasted three whole days. It was very exciting, and the number kept going up and up and up. And I was freaking out, because now you’ve got huge expectations. I mean, I’m thrilled, but the expectations keep getting bigger and bigger. So where we ended up was Harper Books came back with the highest bid, and it was also for the editor that I was most excited to work with, Gail Winston, and it came in at $400,000, so that was wonderful. That was great. It was based on—I got five payments over five, essentially, five years, and I have not earned back that advance for my publisher. So, Sarina, what would you say to me—a writer who is stressed out because that means, you know, when they’re looking at purchasing other books like The Addiction Inoculation, I was able to sell to them, even though it’s a tough niche, that little—it’s a tough corner, that addiction corner—and they knew that this book was not going to sell as well. But on the strength of my sales of the addiction…excuse me, of The Gift of Failure, I was able to sell that book, but I hadn’t earned out. So why are they going to pay me to write another book if I hadn’t earned out?Sarina BowenIt’s such a great question. So the thing—the punch line of this episode—is we just want you to know that if you don’t earn out, you’re not a failure. And we don’t mean it in a nice way, like everybody gets a ribbon. We mean, like, you might not be a financial failure for the publisher, even though on your statement it says you still haven’t earned back your advance. And that’s because the advance that you’re paid is part of a profit-and-loss estimate that the publisher makes before they offer on a book. And just in case anybody is squishy about this—like, an advance means those royalty amounts in your contract, you’re getting paid an upfront amount, and then you have to, like, earn it back with those royalty amounts in your contract.Jess LaheyAnd for those who actually are not familiar with this at all, I don’t have to pay back the money if I don’t earn out. That’s not a thing.Sarina BowenRight. So the publisher said, “We like this book so much we are going to pay you $400,000, and we think that you will sell enough copies that we will be in the black on our P&L statement.” But they never show us the P&L statement. So let’s just say that they had a P&L statement that shows that they’re profitable on this book even if you only sell 70,000 copies—but you’ve sold over twice that amount. So when I worked on Wall Street, I was given a bonus every year, and the bonus made everybody feel like, “This is the amount of money that you’re worth.” But what it really was is “This is the amount of money we have to pay you so you won’t quit and go work for somebody else.” And an advance is exactly the same thing—it’s how much do we have to pay you to win, but also in a way that looks okay on our profit-and-loss estimate of what this book can do. And of course, you mentioned that we don’t have good data about how many books earn back their advances. And the truth is, even if you and I had done a deep dive prior to sitting down here today, we still wouldn’t know, because nobody publishes these numbers. And the only time that you get a glimpse of them is when some publishing executive is on the stand in a court case about, say, whether two Big Five publishers can merge.Jess LaheyGotcha.Sarina BowenAnd then, yeah. And then they tend to say various things—like, they’ll give a statistic, and then everybody in publishing will be, like, nailed to the transcript of this court case to see, like, how is everybody doing in there? Because, you know, nobody—nobody tells you. Nobody is obligated, even in a publicly traded company, to give these precise statistics about how often people earn out.So earning out has some pros and cons. Like, so you said that writing this book—because you sold it on proposal, and then you had to write it, and you had this big amount of money that you had to recoup—and that is so intimidating. And I’ve been in this same situation. I sold The Five Year Lie to HarperCollins two years before that book was published, and I still had to write the book, because that book was actually also sold on proposal.Jess LaheyWhich doesn’t happen very often, dear listener. Do—Sarina BowenThat’s rightJess Lahey—not think that you can sell your first fiction on proposal. That’s not how it works.Sarina BowenRight—that will never happen. But, um, this was my, like, 50th novel, and then you can sell on proposal. But anyway, I also had to write something in a new genre with my own expectations built in, and that’s scary. But the reason we need this fear—the value of this fear—is that both of our publishers were invested in our success. If I had been offered a low advance and I had taken this deal, then, um, sure, I would be less stressed out about the success of the book—but so would my publisher. The more skin they have in the game, the better they’re going to see your project through.Jess LaheyRight.Sarina BowenAnd that is valuable. So a little bit of our fear—or, okay, fine, a lot of it—is actually doing things for this calculation that we need, that we require.Jess LaheyAnd to decode that—what that can often mean is marketing budget. So The Gift of Failure had, you know, the amount that they’re willing to invest, including the number of hours my publicist at Harper is willing to invest in publicizing this book, comes down to how invested they are in the book. And given the number that I got, they’re pretty invested in this book. And, you know, I was pretty happy with some of the publicity stuff. And also, on top of that, you know, I requested bookmarks and postcards and all that sort of stuff, and I requested to have as many as they could afford in my marketing budget shipped to me. And honestly, for The Gift of Failure I’m just now finally running out of postcards, and I use a lot of those postcards still in my marketing. And they also have been in communication since then—been really appreciative of how much I invest in the publicity. But I will say, I knew—I knew when I was old news and that they were no longer really going to invest in my publicity—when the next big thing, the next big book that was coming out from Harper with this publicist, when I started accidentally getting that author’s emails about, you know—it was a total mistake, and it was very funny—but I’m like, oh, yeah, I see, I’m done now. This is—they’re on to the next book. Which was fine. But again—and we’ve said this a million times—no one can market you better than you can market you. So that was fine with me, and I also knew that that would be a big role for me with this book. But, yeah, the marketing budget is very much factored in when you look at how much they’re willing to spend on you.Sarina BowenYeah. So we should say a couple more things about [unintelligible]. One is, everybody’s first statement from the publisher—whether that comes quarterly, semi-annually, or annually—is always a little bit rattling, because they’re hard to read. They just are. Like, I don’t know any publisher who has, you know, beautiful, easy-to-read statements. And so the befuddlement one can have on there is, you know, not to be underweighted. But also, if you—so, we have this double-edged sword. Like, we want a big advance because it reduces our risk, and it increases the publisher’s risk, so they’re going to invest in it. But, as you said before, then if you don’t perform—like, if you dramatically underperform your advance—and this happens in publishing all the time—it will be maybe a little bit harder for you to sell the next book, and maybe you have to switch publishers, because maybe idea number two is really fantastic and more saleable. Then you have to find somebody with a clean slate—like, that they see the value of your new idea. They’re not intimidated by the fact that your first book didn’t sell a kajillion copies. And, you know, that editor doesn’t have, like, a wound from having, you know, failed the first time. So these things happen.Jess LaheyBecause—keeping in mind that that editor has to go, you know—any editor that wants to acquire your book has to go before, you know, their peers, their colleagues, and say, “I really want to buy this book, and here’s how much I think it’s worth, and there’s going to be an auction.” And then, you know, I could imagine that an editor might feel like a bit of a doofus if their book doesn’t perform the way they’ve predicted in front of that room of their colleagues.Sarina BowenBecause they would. You know, it’s just not fair for them to come back and say, “Yeah, we’ll give you the same schlubby advance on the second one.” So, so there’s emotions on either side of this. And one thing about earning out that can happen is that sometimes, if you have a two-book deal, you will have a clause in your contract that calls for joint accounting between those two books. And this is a clause that I always ask to be taken out, because that means if you didn’t earn out—if you earned out the first book but not the second one—then they’re going to hold on to your royalties until you’ve earned out enough money to cover both advances. And that’s obviously unfavorable to the author.Jess LaheyYeah, you also reminded me that there were some things that happened with The Gift of Failure, where, for example, I narrated my audiobook. And I think—I think that my flat fee for narrating that audiobook went against my advance.Sarina BowenAdvance. Mmhmm.Jess LaheyYeah, I didn’t get a check, like a flat-out check for that. It went against my advance. And I think the same for my Spanish edition. I think that because the Spanish edition was also part of Harper—it’s Harper Español—that that went against my advance as well, as opposed to, you know, “Here’s another chunk of money for the Spanish edition.”Sarina BowenWell, that was actually a really unusual scenario for you, because you sold North American rights generally on this book, right?Jess LaheyYeah. Mmhmm.Sarina BowenIn English. You sold English only? Or World English? That would mean that…Jess LaheyActually, I didn’t sell World English. It was just North American, because there’s the different North American short books, and there’s—Sarina BowenRight. Okay.Jess Lahey—the British version.Sarina BowenSo North American rights means that your advance really only covers those books that sell in the U.S. and Canada and territories of the U.S.—and sometimes the Philippines, for reasons that nobody has ever explained to me. But if you’d sold world rights instead, you would have the entire world to help you pay down that advance and then start earning royalties. And I did have a moment last year where I asked my agent, like, “Why didn’t we sell world rights on this book?” Because now we’re scrambling to place the book with a U.K. editor. And she said—and it made so much sense—she said, “Because if the U.K. branch of your publisher is not fired up about the book and is not motivated, then we won’t get the placement you want anyway.”Jess LaheyGot it!Sarina BowenLike, it won’t work. And of course, that made lots of sense—like, they’re busy acquiring titles that they feel they can sell in the U.K. to their audience, and they know best about that. So I needed to be reminded why that is. But, yeah—so lots of things can go against our advances. And the point of today’s discussion was to make sure that you understand that there’s an emotional load for the way that we do these things. And your publisher might be very happy with you even if you didn’t earn out your advance.Jess LaheyI can tell you, though, where The Gift of Failure is concerned—I have earned out in one spot, and that is China. In China, I have earned—not only did I earn out, they decided to renew my contract early because they were so pleased with sales there. So that’s good. I do get small royalty checks for my Chinese version, so yay!Sarina Bowen(Laughing)Jess LaheyGiddy up.Sarina BowenGiddy up.Jess LaheyAll right, have we covered everything we want to cover on this topic?Sarina BowenWe have, and we hope that our listeners are out there getting the best advances they can and then not worrying about them too much.Jess LaheyExcellent. I like that answer. And until next time, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

You kids I can’t even with Catherine Newman right now because I am a Wreck and a Sandwich myself at the moment but wow, she’s a good writer, so honest it’s like there’s no skull between her mind and the readers. We talk about what it means to use yourself and your world in your fiction and what it’s meant to Catherine to play as big as she possibly can and go bigger and deeper with every book.We ALSO talk about Catherine’s totally granular technique for planning and tracking and keeping her eye on the ball in every chapter while still pulling in all the other things while making sure that if it’s Friday night a teacher character doesn’t get up and go to teach the next morning and the blackberries never ripen in April, and let me tell you that I just went back and listened to that now and I am about to implement it because it’s brilliant.Ok, time to let you listen (although links to what Catherine and I are reading and loving are below). ALSO…Truth? We wanted to tuck the transcript away behind a paywall, but it turns out we can’t do that and still give you the episode… so, here it is. But we have to pay someone to make a good one, that you can read. And we still have to pay ourselves and all our people. BUT LOOK YOU GET ALL OF US. We’re not just one writer, we’re a whole bunch—a Groupstack, and yes we coined the term, and you get a lot of bang for your subscription. So, if you could kick in, we’d cheer.Please don’t make us try to sell you Quince clothing or gambling sites to support the pod.#AmReadingCatherine: A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam ToewsKJ: EPISODE TRANSCRIPTKJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s fall, y’all, and there’s got to be a T-shirt that says that, right? So it’s, you know, fresh notebooks, sharpened pencils, sharpened sense of ambition, excitement after the languid summer days, and, of course, the glory that is decorative gourd season. You can say that with all the swears that you like, but I’m not going to hear “falling leaves” and “Halloween,” which means it’s time for smoky, eerie, witchy reads, and I have just the thing for you—Playing the Witch Card. Expect a woman starting over again after her marriage collapses, hampered by her magic-obsessed daughter, her flaky mother, her enchanted ex, and a powerful witch who’s thrilled that she’s back in town—and not for a good reason. To keep her family together, Flair has to embrace the hereditary magic that’s done nothing but ruin her life in the past and make it her own. I was inspired by what I see as the real magic of tarot cards, which play a huge role in this book—and tea leaves and palm reading, and honestly, every form of oracle. They’re here to help us see and understand our own stories, which is pretty much what Flair figures out. And as someone for whom stories are everything, I love that. You can buy Playing the Witch Card everywhere, and I hope you will do exactly that—and love it too.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast—the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters. Today on the pod, I’m talking with Catherine Newman. She is the author most recently of We All Want Impossible Things and Sandwich, and also, earlier in her career, Waiting for Birdy and Catastrophic Happiness, as well as two fabulous “how to be a person in the world” books for kids that, honestly, I think we could all benefit from. I’m considering just, you know, sending out copies. They are How to Be a Person and What Can I Say?—that one’s really useful. Okay, so now, just out, she has Wreck—which kind of comes after Sandwich, but you could read them separately. They’re both small, intense books. Wreck, like all of Catherine’s work, is inevitably about exactly what I just said—it’s how to be a person in the world. Which—I didn’t actually ask Catherine this; I’m recording my intro for y’all after talking to her—but she would not tell you she knows how to be a person in the world. But she is so fantastic about the part where we’re all figuring it out, and being aware that we’re all figuring it out. And that’s what all of her books are about. In the interview, which you’re going to love, she calls herself the queen of the slight plot element, which made me laugh really hard and also made me realize that I think Catherine Newman is the modern Anne Tyler. So tell me what you think in the comments on the show notes—which you’d better be getting. They are at...there’s no hashtag in our name—AmWritingPodcast.com—or search anywhere they will have the books that Catherine mentions, and also all of your chances to do all of the things, like have your First Page appear in a Booklab episode. Talk to us. Get in there. Tell us what you’re thinking about writing. Write along with us. Really just—just all the community stuff that we all so desperately want. Okay, here comes my interview with Catherine. I know—gosh, it was so fun to talk to you. You guys are going to love it. Catherine Newman, welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, where you’ve been at least once, maybe twice—I need to go and look. It’s so fun to have you back. I remember us walking in the woods before you had finished We All Want Impossible Things in 2021.Catherine NewmanI remember it too.KJ Dell’AntoniaWhich, actually, for three books, is not that long ago.Catherine NewmanHey, that’s true. I know... I remember your dog.KJ Dell’AntoniaHe’s here somewhere.Catherine NewmanYou had a young dog with you. It was the best. And you—you said so many things that I’ve thought about so much on that walk. But I don’t want to derail the thing you want to talk about.KJ Dell’AntoniaBut, but same—it was a great walk. We must do it again. All right, meanwhile—okay, so I already described in the introduction all the things you’ve ever written in the past and raved about you, so don’t—don’t worry about that. You’ve been—sorry you don’t get to hear the petting. But the question is, tell us—tell us a little bit about Wreck.Catherine NewmanYeah, so Wreck...KJ Dell’AntoniaI know, I know, it’s painful. Elevator pitch or whatever you want to say, because seriously, I did just tell everyone about them in the intro.Catherine NewmanI really need an elevator pitch. I feel like We All Want Impossible Things was like a woman whose best friend was dying while she, like, slept with everybody.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, it was joyful.Catherine NewmanThat was easy.KJ Dell’AntoniaAlso sad.Catherine NewmanSandwich was like Cape Cod for a week, reproductive mayhem, sandwich generation. Wreck is so weird because there’s these two sort of very slight plot elements. So it’s, you know, a woman in her mid-50s living in a house with her husband of many years, her daughter, who’s between college and grad school, and her dad, who was fairly recently widowed and in his 90s. And that’s mostly what the book is, but the little plots are that she has a rash—she notices that she has a rash—and it inaugurates this kind of diagnostic tornado. A slow and quiet tornado, but a tornado nonetheless, where she has to see a billion doctors. She has to constantly check her patient portal to see if she’s dying or not, and anyone who’s had—who’s been anything but healthy in the last 10 years will understand the patient portal.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes, I love the checker. I checked a patient portal from a hockey-rink parking lot, and that’s a mistake, just FYI.Catherine NewmanJust don’t...KJ Dell’AntoniaTo anyone considering it, don’t do it on a Friday night. Don’t do that.Catherine NewmanJust don’t even look. And then the other plot point is that there’s an accident—there’s a collision between a car and a train—and a schoolmate of her kids, like someone they went to high school with, is killed in this accident. And she becomes kind of weirdly obsessed with the accident. She looks at it online all the time. She stalks everyone’s...KJ Dell’AntoniaWhich so tracks for the character that you have created.Catherine NewmanDoesn’t it? And that’s it. And so the book sort of is those things unfolding in this parallel way—these uncertain things.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo when you wrote it, what—what was your intention for this? What did you want Wreck to be in your career and for your readers?Catherine NewmanWhat? It’s so funny to be asked questions about my career. I don’t know what I wanted it to be in my career, but maybe while I’m talking to you, I’ll figure that out.KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay.Catherine NewmanOr you can tell me. But for my readers—I do think we’re in this funny place where some of us are hungry to read about the experiences of other menopausal women who are taking care of aging parents, whose nests are emptying, who are in long marriages, who are, you know, doing the things of this age, including tracking weird illnesses. So I guess that—you know, I think, I feel like the thing that I love about writing—one of the things—is when people say to me, like, “Oh yeah, I feel the same way about that,” or they write me and they’re like, “Oh, I read this, and I felt so relieved that I wasn’t alone.” And I guess I have a lot of that hope—you know, that it speaks to someone, or someone’s been in their portal rummaging around and finding out horrible things about their health and Googling them. Like, that’s not a small part of the population who’s probably doing that. So I guess just that—you know, the handout, the “I’m with you on this” vibe.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what do you love most about it?Catherine Newman(Laughing) I mean, that’s a funny and embarrassing question. I... you know, the father character is based very closely on my own father. Many of the things he says are verbatim lifted from conversations and texts with my dad. And I just love that character so much. I think he’s so funny and has this kind of deep wisdom. I mean, Wreck plays him for laughs a little bit, but he offers so much to her. He’s still this really profound caretaking force in her life, even though he himself, you know, is failing in different ways. So I guess that’s what I like.KJ Dell’AntoniaHow does your dad feel about you taking his stuff?Catherine NewmanHe loved this book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this!Catherine NewmanHe has not felt that way always about the way I represent him. I represent him in Sandwich in similar ways, and Sandwich—there were just particular things that bugged him. He loved the book overall but didn’t love his character. I think in this book, maybe because there’s so much of his character, that it gets to be a very well-rounded kind of person, and also somebody whose opinion it’s obvious the other characters respect. So he really loved it, which was, like, everything to me, you know?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, oh, wow. I’d give a lot for that. That’s—that’s wonderful. I would—it’s... although all my dad ever says is, “Why don’t you—you only write about mothers? You never write...” I’m like, well, I don’t know if you read some of the mothers. You’re kind of lucky. You’re doing okay. I don’t know why—you guys were great. You should have been better fodder for affection, and then I would... yeah. All right. So, okay, so that’s what you love about it. What was the hardest about this?Catherine NewmanIt’s funny—it’s a little hard to talk about without spoilers, but, um, there’s a difficult part of the plot that involves Rocky’s son, who works for a consulting firm in New York, where she really questions his values, questions the decision to do that kind of work.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat would stun me, frankly.Catherine NewmanHowever, he knows a lot about that kind of work, and talked to me a ton about it for the book—like, went on a million walks with me and let me pick his brain about it. And I really just found it so hard to write about this kind of painful conflict between Rocky and her son. I just found it really hard. Yeah...KJ Dell’AntoniaObviously, yeah, that’s actually what you did, wasn’t it?Catherine NewmanI can imagine... that’s it. I imagined it. And honestly, my husband could hardly stand to read it. He found it so devastating. Just—and it’s, as you know, it’s not massive conflict. It’s like...KJ Dell’AntoniaBut it is. It’s...Catherine NewmanBut it is. YepKJ Dell’AntoniaI mean, it’s, you know—Catherine NewmanYep.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s it—goes back to Alex Keaton, right? [Unintelligible] Both of us, yeah, yeah, no, I get it. It’s a really—and by writing it, even if it’s not autobiographical, which it’s not, it’s fiction, you are saying something about some compatriots, you know, some other—you’re really, you’re—you’re putting—you’re putting a stake in the ground, which I think has always been pretty obvious for anyone who knows you or has read you, but maybe you had not verbalized even in a fictional form.Catherine NewmanHmm, maybe.KJ Dell’AntoniaCould feel judgmental because—it’s judgmental (whispered). But it’s values. That’s what values do. A value that doesn’t judge anyone isn’t a value, even if you don’t want to judge people. But I think it’s kind of true, like...Catherine NewmanYeah, yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou can also be open. But, I mean, that’s—I don’t know if, if you don’t offer that up, then we’re all just sitting here going, “Oh, it’s fine. It’s all...”Catherine NewmanEverything’s fine.KJ Dell’AntoniaEverything’s fine, it’s fine. That’s a joke in our house, because we had this Spanish exchange student, and he would always say, “Oh, it’s fine,” when—and it—what that meant was, it wasn’t.Catherine NewmanOh no, it wasn’t fine.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no... that’s what it means when we say, “It’s fine.”Catherine NewmanOh my God, KJ.KJ Dell’AntoniaAll right, so this kind of gets to, I think, my next question, which—which is, what about this was, um, bigger for you? Was a bigger leap to take in your writing?Catherine NewmanIt’s like, you know, I think it’s just a little more plot in a novel than I’ve ever managed. Even though, you know—don’t laugh because there’s not a ton of plot. But nonetheless, there were sort of these two vectors of significant—I thought—dramatic contention that I had to manage in the writing, and—and I was anxious about it. Like, I—I like a quiet story that’s not like—is too plot-driven. But anyway, so that is—it was, you know, I definitely plotted it a little more actively before I wrote it, like I wanted to make sure that these plots were unfolding in the timeframe I wanted them to unfold in.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd did that present some new, like, “Oops, I did this too fast, oops...” just that you hadn’t really had to...?Catherine NewmanNo, because I plotted it. It actually didn’t, but it just presented—before I started writing, I had the challenge of, you know, practically trying to graph these two plots to see where they would intersect, and—and the sort of ways that the two plots together create this kind of character arc for Rocky, the main character. And so I was—I just, like—I usually, I have this way that I plot stuff, and it’s kind of based on that book that I use because of you, which is like, you know, Put On Your Pants—or Take Off Your Pants, or, you know, the book...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, oh yeah.Catherine NewmanAnd—and I, so I do this thing where I make a—I write down the numbers 1 to 25, and I print that. I print a piece of paper that has the numbers 1 through 25 in type font. I don’t know why I don’t just hand-write the whole thing. That—and I guess the thought’s how many chapters it’s going to be, but it’s never quite right. And then I fill in what I know. So I put in everything I know, and guess where it’s going to go in terms of the—what are the things? What’s it called when it’s like a thing...?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, the... the turning point or the...Catherine NewmanOr the beat...KJ Dell’AntoniaOr the moment of last resolve? Yeah, the beat!Catherine NewmanYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Catherine NewmanSo I fill in everything, like, I know, you know. I have a sense of how it’s going to open. I have a sense of the different elements of the two plots, and I put them in this weird numbered-chapter thing. And usually—like, usually as if I’ve written so many books—but with the other two novels, I did that a little willy-nilly, and it was fine. Like, I sat down and wrote the books beginning to end without all of it totally sorted in terms of where everything would go, and that was fine. This book, I really had to understand where it was all going to go, so I had to just be sure that all of the most important plot points were plotted in that 1-through-25.KJ Dell’AntoniaDo you? I mean, you have a lot of moving emotional pieces too. Asking for a friend—how do you make sure that those are all resolved? Or do you? Or does it just happen?Catherine NewmanThat’s a really good question. I hope they’re resolved, or if they’re not, that that’s intentional, by the way. Yeah, I—I’m just thinking about, like, the different relationships. You know, most of what the book is, is like Rocky’s relationships with the people she loves—like, that is sort of the heart of the book. And then her grappling with herself, both physically and psychologically. I think I have a sense of those. Those are kind of included in those. I have, like, a—in that 1-through-25— sorry if this is too granular.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo, I love it.Catherine NewmanIn the 1-through-25, I have the plot thing that’s like, “Rocky reads her biopsy results,” or, you know, whatever the thing is. And then I have this other column that’s like, the other things that need to happen in that chapter, if that’s what’s happening in the chapter. And that’s where I keep information about stuff that’s like, “Willa forgives her,” you know—whatever other thing needs to happen. So I sort of track the plot, and then I—and I also have a little other column that’s just like, seasonal details. And that I don’t fill out super carefully, but, like, because this book moves from essentially Labor Day to New Year’s, I—I just tracked a little before I started writing, like, around when in that season things were going to be happening, you know, that’s Halloween, it’s Thanksgiving, it’s the winter holidays, New Year’s, and then it’s going to be, like, the leaves are turning, the blackberries that, you know?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, it’s so hard. Is it Tuesday? Like...?Catherine NewmanYeah (laughing).KJ Dell’AntoniaDang it. Oh, wait—if its four days from the first day, and the first day was a Thursday, that means its Sunday, and Sundays do have a particular rhythm on their own. And yeah, no, it’s so hard.Catherine NewmanIt’s really hard, although that part’s my favorite part, probably—besides, I love dialogue. But I love—I keep a lot of notes that are really dull on their own about, like, the weather and the landscape, just in general. I don’t even know what I’m going to use them for. I just keep a ton of notes about the seasons. And I love pilfering stuff for fiction from them because it’s just like—it’s going to be fairly accurate. Like, I will have dated it. I’ll have a fairly strong sense of whether that will work or not.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, you’re not going to put the blackberries in April.Catherine NewmanAnd I’m not going to put the blackberries in April, and I have that cheater feeling of chunking in something I’ve already kind of written down, and then your word count goes up by, like, 300 words.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re like, hey... [Unintelligible].Catherine NewmanYeah, exactly.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh my gosh, I love this. All right, well, one last question, and that is—what have you read recently where you felt like the writer was really, you know, playing big, doing their very max?Catherine NewmanYeah, I just read—well, I just got it in the mail, although my kitten—I want to show you, she has, like...KJ Dell’AntoniaShe had some fun with it...Catherine NewmanChewed up every corner.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Catherine NewmanSo this book is A Truce That Is Not Peace by Miriam Toews. And she is a very, very favorite writer of mine. She wrote the novel All My Puny Sorrows that I always press on everybody, because it’s like the perfect funny, sad novel. This book I got to blurb, so I read it a while ago, and it just came—and I think it just came out maybe this week, I’m not sure. It’s so incredibly good. It’s really strange—someone—she’s doing some conference in Mexico, and she has to write an answer to the question, “Why do I write?”KJ Dell’AntoniaOkay.Catherine NewmanAnd she keeps starting and stopping, and it’s so—it’s nonfiction. I mean, it’s just authentically this, and she includes, like, letters to her sister. Her sister killed herself some number of years ago, and that’s the event that All My Puny Sorrows—which is a novel—is based on. But this, I am under the impression that’s the first time she’s written about it...KJ Dell’AntoniaIn a nonfiction way—yeah.Catherine NewmanIn a nonfiction way. And it is just—I did that thing, you know, when a book is so good? I picked it up because I knew I was going to talk to you about it, and then I read it for, like, an hour.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, no, I get it.Catherine NewmanEven though I have, like, already read it. It’s so moving and beautiful and so—like, she’s just struggling in this, like, really profound way to process loss and to understand herself and what she’s created in the world. And it’s so good.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt sounds huge, and I would—yeah, I’m going to pick it up. I have a funny story about All My Puny Sorrows, which is that I took it to Spain while I was waiting for one of those patient-portal things. I had cancer at the time, and that’s—the character of the sister who wanted to kill herself made me so angry that I had to hide—not only did I have to leave the book behind, I had to hide it in the hotel so it would not juju me. I obviously survived, because this was, I think, seven or eight years ago. But I couldn’t—like, I just—it was... but that actually speaks to the power of the book.Catherine NewmanInteresting... yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s not that it wasn’t an amazing book. It was that I literally couldn’t handle the particular, you know, mental illness that the sister was struggling with when I, you know, did not really want to die. Did not want to die, yeah. So I...Catherine NewmanThat’s amazing... yeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaShe’s a really powerful writer.Catherine NewmanThat—that is a really powerful story. Wait, were you going to share with me a book? Or it doesn’t work that way?KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, it doesn’t...Catherine NewmanKJ looks around...KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause I did not prepare.Catherine NewmanWhat are you writing, KJ? What are you working on? What’s happening?KJ Dell’AntoniaAll right, we’re going to call this as an episode.Catherine Newman(Laughing)KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause it was excellent, and then I’m going to answer Catherine’s question, which all of you listeners kind of vaguely know. Let’s just say I’m trying to play big. All right, so this is me ending with: thank you so much, Catherine Newman, for joining me on the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Catherine NewmanThank you, KJ; it was a pleasure, as always.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd for all you listeners, we’re still saying it—keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work.Subscribe to back the show that backs your writing life This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Kate Rope’s new book, Strong as a Girl is not only well-written and thoroughly researched, it includes the voices of so many girls and young women. In this week’s episode, Jess talks with Kate about how she managed to secure interviews with these girls, get permission to use their voices, and manage the paperwork around all those releases. Find Kate via her website: Kate Rope, @kateropewriter on Instagram, and her Substack Strong as a HumanTranscript Below!Jess LaheyHey, it’s Jess Lahey. If you’ve been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love—my deepest love—is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch and learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I’m an expert in, from the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over-parenting and what that does to kids’ learning—two topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I’ve been doing lately that’s the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we’re talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development.So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come—you can go to jessicalahey.com, look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There’s also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount, so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting. This is the podcast about reading all the things—short things, long things, poetry, nonfiction, fiction, articles, queries, book proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things, but more than anything else, this is the podcast about getting the writing done, getting the work of being a writer done. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Washington Post and The New York Times and The Atlantic and lots of other places.And today I have a guest—a guest I’m very, very excited about. So today I’m going to be talking with Kate Rope about a topic that I have wanted to cover for a while and have not had exactly the right person to cover the topic with. Kate Rope is a writer. She is a journalist, and she’s had articles at a lot of the same places that I have, actually—like The New York Times, The Washington Post, and things like that. She wrote a wonderful book called Strong like a Mother [Strong as a Mother], and her new book, Strong like a Girl [Strong as a Girl], is coming out in October—October 14, to be precise. And thank you so much, Kate, for coming on the podcast.Kate RopeOh, I’m so excited. It’s a dream come true. It’s—it’s literally like leveling up in my world.Jess LaheyOkay, so help me remember where we actually first met? It could have been through Jess Foundation people, because those people in common.Kate RopeNo, no, it was before then. I think I just sought you out for—for being a source for a couple of articles.Jess LaheyOh, okay.Kate RopeJust because of having read your The Gift of Failure.Jess LaheyNormally what I do—what I need, what our computers need now—is a function called “How do I know blah, blah, blah?” Because there are all these people that, like, we know them from online, or I know them because I’ve used them as a source somewhere for some article. So I got on my computer, and I looked in my little, you know, search terms, and I put your name in, and I was looking for, like, our earliest contact, and I couldn’t find it. But I think our computers need, like...Kate RopeI think it was a phone call.Jess LaheyHow—oh, okay, well, there you go.Kate RopeI think that’s why there’s no record of it.Jess LaheyWell, either way, I’m so glad we’re talking now. I love, love, love your new book. I’ve been fortunate enough to read an early version of it. It’s really lovely. You ended up with a beautiful cover—I can’t wait for everybody to see it. I will be posting a picture of it in the show notes. But I wanted to talk to you—and you actually came up with this independently—but this is this topic I’ve wanted to talk about for a long time: about interviewing kids specifically. Like, logistically, there are a lot of hurdles to get through when you interview kids There can be, I know, depending on, like, the when, the where, the why, and the how. But I wanted to talk a little bit about interviewing—how we interview kids, how we interview people in general, how we get permission, how we approach people. So since you had sort of this idea to begin with, I would love for you to start and talk a little bit about your book—how on earth you got access to the people you talked to in your book, and how that process went for you.Kate RopeSure. So it goes back to my first book. I will admit to having a bias—I do not like books that have case studies that open chapters, and so it’s like, “Sarah and her family could never get homework done,” and so it, you know, went for, you know, this is what they went through. And if you don’t relate to that particular story, you check out. So for my last—my last book, Strong as a Mother—I wanted to have the voices of all different kinds of moms and pregnant people, you know, sharing what their experience was, so that a reader could find some other person that had gone through what they had gone through. And so for that...Jess LaheyCan I hit pause? Can I hit pause for just one second? So my—and this is, I’m going to be talking to my Authority to Author person that I’ve been interviewing for a series that I’m doing on going from being an authority to being an author—and we talk a lot about this: like, what’s your framing narrative for the chapter? How do you create narrative? So I want to make sure at some point we talk about—so if you’re not a fan of sort of the case study approach, how do you go about thinking about creating a narrative to use to couch your data, so that it’s not just about data?Kate RopeYeah, I do have stories in there. So I might have, you know, a couple of paragraphs with a particular story that illustrates, you know, whatever we’re talking about in the chapter, but it doesn’t ground the whole chapter in one experience. So…Jess LaheyI like that.Kate RopeYeah, it’s trying to bring in different, different viewpoints. I tend to write very much, like, voice-forward. So I bring people in, and I talk about, you know, the research, but I don’t tend to be really clinical or academic. So I tend to kind of create the narrative. I bring the people’s stories in within the body of the text. But then what I did in Strong as a Mother was, at the end of each chapter, I had quotes from pregnant people and moms about whatever the topic was. So, let’s say it was a chapter on breastfeeding, or choosing how you’re going to feed your kid. I wanted the mom who said, “I never wanted to breastfeed. I went to the hospital; I put a sign on my door that said, ‘Do not bring a lactation consultant in here. I know what I’m doing. I’m doing formula.’”I wanted the woman who was like, “Breastfeeding is all I ever wanted to do in my whole life, and it just didn’t work, and I had to stop. And it was heartbreaking, but I got through it.” I wanted the woman who was like, “This was the one thing that worked out for me, and I loved it, and I did it till my child was four.” Because then, at the end of the chapter, you’ve read this whole chapter on making choices about feeding your child that feel good to you and that work for you—and adjusting if life makes it not possible to live out that particular choice. And then I wanted them to see people who had done it, and who’d gotten through it. So that’s the way I did Strong as a Mother. And it was funny—I had so many in the end, and the only ding I got in Publishers Weekly was that they wanted more. But we had to cut so many, because otherwise the book would have been, like 600 pages long.Jess LaheyWhich is interesting, because then I have to—I, you know, if I’m going to go with, as I did both in The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, I chose one framing narrative. So I have to be really careful about, how can I make this framing narrative as general, as appealing to as many people as possible? Because it is going to be a very thin slice, no matter what you do. But how you generalize that for people who may be experiencing something different is—it’s a hard thing to do. So that’s a really interesting choice to have to make—to say, okay, I’m not going to focus it on this one story versus, I’m going to give lots of different ways to people. I like thinking about that.Kate RopeIt’s sort of like if…Jess LaheyBecause I get stuck in…Kate RopeYou went to a moms’ group…Jess LaheyThe way I do things…Kate RopeYeah, it’s—you had went to—then why do you go to a moms’ group early on when you have your baby? So that you don’t feel like a weirdo and somebody else is going through the same thing. So I kind of wanted this to be, like, three pages of a moms’ group for, you know, perinatal depression and anxiety, breastfeeding, sex, co-parenting—whatever the topics were. I wanted them to feel like they had entered a room with peers who were open to all the different experiences, you know, one can have when going through, you know, trying to make or bring a child into your home. You know?Jess LaheyI like that. Thank you for opening my eyes to a different way. It’s just what you’re used to, I suppose, and how you want to go about entering into your storytelling.Kate RopeYeah, and so for Strong as a Girl, that didn’t feel quite the right way to go. So what I wanted to do was—and I’m a journalist, so I don’t even have, like you have—you’re a teacher, you’re trained. I am trained as a journalist. So all of the, you know, there’s some stories and advice that come from me living out my experience—me mostly doing things that I’ve learned from experts—but most of the actual advice and tips and everything is coming from experts. So I know I’m going to interview experts—experts for the book—and then I wanted to interview girls themselves, because I wanted to hear from them. What do they want? You know, basically, you know—this book is written for caregivers and parents of kids who identify as girls, elementary-age kids who identify as girls, so big, five to twelve. And you know, you can talk with ten and up, I would say. But, you know, five, six, seven, eight was not necessarily where I was going to get my, you know, sort of most self-reflective comments on what helps them and what doesn’t.Jess LaheyAlthough you do get great—you do get great quotes from kids those age.Kate RopeAgreed, agreed, agreed. So I went with, you know, kind of, you know, middle, upper elementary, middle school, all the way up through college. And I gathered focus groups together—and we can talk about why I did focus groups—but the whole point, the whole—what I wanted in the book was girls and young women reflecting on their childhoods: what helps them, what were the things that people in their lives did that were really helpful to them, and what were the things that they wish they had done differently or didn’t have access to? So that it was literally like—the way I would start off the focus groups is, I’d be like, “Pretend you’re talking to an auditorium of caregivers, and you get to tell them exactly the best way to do this job, like the way that’s going to help you the most to just— I want to know those things.” So for that...Jess LaheyOkay, so let’s talk about the focus groups. Yeah, the focus groups—because I think A) brilliant, B) how on earth do you get—do you pull a focus group together? Like, it’s something that when most people hear focus groups, they think of, like, oh, you know, this is how you beta test a movie, like.Kate RopeYeah... “Do you like this toilet paper?Jess LaheyYou do a test for a movie and see what the focus group thinks. Right? Exactly. How on earth do you, as a journalist, pull together a focus group? Because that’s such an incredible, valuable— and how do you select who’s going to be in your focus group?Kate RopeYeah, so I have to give—so I have several writing groups, and one of them is professors in the Education Department at Georgia State. So they all write papers and stuff, and we get together, and I write whatever I’m writing, and so—and they’re all in education, and they’re all in early education. And so they interview kids, and so they said to me right off the bat, “You have to do focus groups. You have to have groups.” Because adults, you know, typically one-on-one, you can get them to start talking. But with kids, they’re going to respond to each other, and they’re going to riff off each other and develop a rapport. But—but you can’t have too many. There were definitely some focus groups—I would say the sweet spot is maybe four to six. Six starts to get a little unwieldy, only because you can’t keep them for three hours, and they all have so much good stuff to say. And so I had focus groups that were anywhere from two people to—I think, I think I had a seven—and they were virtual, because the girls were from all over the country and young women, and I wanted them to represent different lived experiences of girls.So, you know, girls are not a monolith. You know, there are some things unique to being a female in our society—challenges, strengths, all those things—and then there are things, you know, that are unique to being a girl of color or living with a physical disability. So I wanted to talk with groups of girls who could speak to just the experience of being a girl and what helped them, and then also whatever, you know, their specific identity or lived experience was—what were the additional inputs that were helpful to them, or additional obstacles that they have ideas about how to help girls overcome. So in that case, I wrote—I reached out to organizations. So I reached out to a bunch of different organizations that work with girls of color, and I just said, “This is what I’m doing.” And literally in the acknowledgments, I say to those organizations, like, “You didn’t have to return my email, but you did,” because I just blind-emailed a bunch of organizations and said, “Here’s what I’m doing. Do you have—?” And a lot of these organizations have, like, an advisory council, or a summer camp or they just, you know, work with the same girls again and again. They have ambassador programs. So, you know, they could—they reached out to their network and said, “Who wants to do this?”And so that was one approach. Same thing with having a focus group of girls living with a physical disability—I reached out to the Disability EmpowHer Network, and they helped me connect with, in that case, I think they were mostly young women. I think they were all about college age, maybe some in high school.And then, let’s see—for neuro—I wanted a big group of girls with neurodivergence, and that I just did pretty much by word of mouth. I created Google Surveys, Google Forms saying, “I’m looking to talk with girls. This is how it’ll go,” and just sent it to everybody, all and sundry, and had caregivers respond and say, “Yes, you know, my child is interested.” Same with LGBTQIA+ kids. So I basically kind of—and—and that was interesting. It was hard for me to find organizations because they are so protective of their LGBTQ youth—which I completely respect—that they don’t really like to do that. So that group, I had to kind of grassroots it, like I did with the girls living with neurodivergence. And I was very clear—and this is an important—we don’t have to do this now if you have more questions—but I definitely want to talk about the ethics and the...Jess LaheyOh, I want to definitely go into this.Kate RopeYeah, yeah.Jess LaheyThis is all really interesting.Kate RopeAnd the parameters—so, so, so my motto is, you know, in the last book was “No mothers will be harmed in the creating of this book.” In this one: “No girls will be harmed in the creating of this book.” So there—I, the only thing I want to publish is some—I want to publish something a girl is happy to see on the page. Because I’m not supporting the mental health and well-being of girls if I am sacrificing one person’s experience and well-being to make a point or whatever. So I made it very clear from the start that they were completely in control of what ended up—I recorded everything, then I chose my quotes, and then I ran them by them. They could change their mind at any time—like, basically, they had total control of what ended up in the book, including an alias or just their first name. You know, if they wanted to say, instead of saying they were from, you know, Encinitas, they wanted to say they were from Southern California. I’m also very careful, having come up as a research director and editor in magazines that I never want to have identifying information about minors. So I didn’t—I would never do a full name and a location. For instance, I would really never do a full name. It’s always just a first name or an alias, and then location in a general enough way. And that kind of depends too on what we’re talking about and how sensitive it is. So...Jess LaheyOne of the fun things that I let the kids do often was pick their own alias if they wanted to. It was a fun way—it was sort of like, “Ooh, that’s exciting, oh my gosh.” And then it turned into, like, a whole project—like, “Oh my gosh, what’s my name going to be?” That was kind of fun too. But I love—I think for a lot of people, especially people who have never done this before, it sounds completely overwhelming to try to ethically get the voices of kids into a book. And it can be easier to, you know, just sort of avoid talking to them directly—which is the problem with a lot of books about kids. Or even when you go into education, and I’m like—every once in a while, I’m like, “Or we could just ask them.” And it seems like there’s a big block about actually talking to the kids themselves, because it is complicated. There are considerations that you have to hold dear to your heart if you really are working for the betterment of kids and not, as you said before—which I really like the way you articulated it—you know, you can’t harm one kid in order to get a story out to lots of others, no matter how helpful you think that story is going to beKate RopeYeah, yeah. And it sounds overwhelming, but first of all, those focus groups were the best part of doing this book. These girls had insight and humor and natural, reflexive inclusivity. And, I mean, they just made me feel better about the world every time I finished. And I mean what I mean—they, sometimes there was one that went for two hours, and that was cool. That was the group of girls who had different neurodivergences, and they got so into each other that, like, at a certain point, I just was sitting there while they were exchanging numbers and sharing what their interests were. And so, so yeah—I, it was so enjoyable, and it wasn’t that overwhelming. Because going through an organization, you’ve got someone helping you, you know, get this all together. You’ve got someone helping you distribute the waivers, because you have to have, you know, release forms signed. And, you know, I just kept a really good Google Sheet of, like, who has signed the waiver, what’s their approved name, what’s their approved quote.So, so that—I think, honestly, that’s not the hardest part. I mean, I think the other—I do try to be really efficient in other ways with my interviewing. With experts, I always do a recorded—nowadays, mostly Zoom—used to be phone interview. Because I don’t know what they’re going to tell me, right? I know what I’m interested in, but I don’t know what they’re going to tell me. With caregivers—and I also have caregiver quotes throughout Strong as a Girl—I usually want to talk to them about a particular topic. You know, “How did you first handle your daughter’s dyslexia diagnosis? How do you talk about sex with your daughter? When did you start? When she’s having really big emotions, how do you guys work through it?” So for that, I just did Google Forms, because they have—they know the answer to that question. I know what I’m looking for. I’m looking for information about specific things to get a sense of different ways families handle things, and they can just respond in a Google Form, and it’s easier than trying to get a busy, you know, parent or caregiver on the phone.Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeSo that was how that—so, like—Jess LaheyThat makes a lot of sense.Kate RopeThat made it less overwhelming. I sort of have three tiers of interviews.Jess LaheyHow do you go about organizing—once you have that information? I find then I have a transcript of the interview, or whatever form—I happen to like having the transcript of the interview—and I’ll underline things and flag things. How do you go about organizing? Do you organize by topic? Do you organize by age group? How—you know—what are the ways that you organize the interviews? It sounds like once you have enough of them, it can be really hard to know how you want to use what information and quotes.Kate RopeYeah, I think, I think the hardest thing is—I think I knew pretty much how I wanted to use everything. The hardest part is, like, the copy editor caught that I said one girl lived in Philadelphia in one area of the book, and then I had her in Denver in the other area. And that’s because she was in a focus group with someone from Denver. And so I can’t say I have the answer to that, because I don’t think I did it really well—but I will do better next time. I basically just—I would, I would screen the transcript shortly after the interview or the focus group, because then it was fresh in my mind, and I could sort of remember, “Oh yeah, I want to...” and then I would just highlight, like, whatever the things were that I really liked. And then I just created one master document with all the focus group quotes, you know, and then...Jess LaheyOh, nice!Kate RopeAs I’m thinking about—yeah—and then as I’m thinking about the topics—okay, now I’m in the, you know, the chapter on puberty—I’m going to go through and pull out what quotes speak to that. And I use Scrivener. I’m a huge Scrivener fan. I use one percent of what Scrivener offers. I just use the table of contents on the left so I can just plop—so then I would just plop them in there. So that..Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThat was my approach, yeah.Jess LaheyI think the reason I ask that question is—I think every single writer has had that moment of, “Oh, I know someone said this really cool thing. Who was that? Where did I file it? Where am I going to find it again? It was in a study, it was on a piece of paper, I know I saw it, it had a red mark on the corner.” You know, all these problems we have with our organization—we’re never going to have, I don’t think I’m ever going to have, the perfect system—but I seem to get a little better at it with each mistake I make.Kate RopeYeah, yeah. I sent—I sent, I sent the wrong quote to one of the focus group participants—to her mom. She was the, you know, the conduit—and she said back, she was like, “Goldie—pretty sure she did not say that in the— they did not say that in the focus group.” And I was like, “Really?” And I went through, and sure enough, it was somebody else. And then I reached out to them—“Oh, yeah, I said that.” Because I’d already checked quotes with them. So that’s another reason for checking quotes.Jess LaheyYeah. I also love the idea of making sure that your subject knows that they will have the right to say, “No, I’d rather—even though I know I said that.” You know, it’s—with a kid, you can’t just say, “Okay, this is an on-the-record, off-the-record sort of situation.” So before, for example, in The Addiction Inoculation, and specifically with kids like Georgia and Brian—the two kids I really featured heavily in the book—they had approval over every single thing that was going to be in the final book. And I think at one or two points, just because I felt really protective of them, I was like, “Are you sure this is how you want to say it? You realize, like, people will read this book.” I think there’s this detachment between, like, the things that come out of your mouth and the fact that it will be out there in public, and I sort of saw it partially as my job to fully make sure they understood the implications and the possible outcomes. And I know you don’t have to go that far, but for me, I felt very protective of the kids and wanted to make sure that ethically, everything was on nice, solid footing.Kate RopeYeah, absolutely. And, I mean, the journalism you and I do is not—we are not reporting on politicians who are trying to spin stuff afterward, you know? We’re—we’re telling stories of real people to help real people. So, you know, on the record, off the record, it’s not so—you know, it’s—it’s you have control. And also, obviously, you and I both, like, parent and write from a consent point of view. And so if I’m saying in my book, you know, that a person in a physical interaction can—has—the ability and right to call it off at any time, right?Jess LaheyYep.Kate RopeThen the same goes for their participation in my book.Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely, absolutely. So first of all, one of the things I really loved about this book was the multitude of stories—the multiple angles on the girl experience—and the fact that there wasn’t this one experience that is this monolithic girl experience. I think, especially coming at it from a perspective of someone who is the mom of a kid who maybe doesn’t fit neatly into the box of a, you know, a stereotypical—whatever that is—girl. There’s a lot of ways you can come at this story, and in order to not alienate kids who are not having the experience of, like, whatever it is you want to refer to as a stereotypical girl experience, you have to encompass all of those stories. And I have a lot of respect for the way that you managed to really bring those stories in. So thank you so, so much. As a reader, I really, really appreciated that as well. It just made the book more interesting too, because I have a lot of moments where I’m like, “Oh, that hadn’t occurred to me,” and “That’s not my experience, but cool, now I know what someone else’s experience is.” So the book did double duty for me.Kate RopeWell, thank you. That’s awesome. And yeah—and I think, ultimately, as I think about it, like, it’s really about listening, right? Most of what I’m talking about in the book is about listening and letting the person in front of you tell you who they are. You know, that they come into this world with the raw material they need to survive, and this world throws a lot at them. And so how do you just keep them true to that experience—help them develop that sense of themselves? And that goes for, you know, any kind of experience. That goes for learning, you know, that you’re an introvert, and it’s okay if you don’t want to speak up in class. And I have a quote in the book from you, who said—and I loved it—like everyone says, “Here, let’s teach you how to speak up in class,” and you’re like, “That’s, like, one of the most high-pressure places to speak up.” Like, umm...Jess LaheyAnd listen—that was a place that, well, that was a place that I had to come to. It was—that was a painful evolution for me as a teacher, especially because I am an extrovert, and I’m used to teaching to extroverts. And so for me to learn from Susan Cain the way I did, and learn from her book Quiet, and learn from her pushing back on something I wrote once and saying, “Mm-mmm, that’s not how everyone learns. That’s not how everyone shows that they’re understanding what you’re teaching them.” So that was a painful evolution for me, and I do not take credit for just knowing that stuff—definitely...Kate RopeRight? Well…Jess LaheyThat was a hard one for me.Kate RopeThe world runs on extroverts, right? So, if you—so, if you have an introverted girl, you know it’s a balancing act of completely respecting who she is—celebrating who she is—and then also finding out where you can equip her to operate in the world in a way that helps her, given the world’s expectations. Or understanding the world. You know, in the neurodivergence section, we talked a lot about—and for all these sections—you know, if I was doing a section on, you know, girls of color, or girls with physical disabilities, it was all experts who work in those communities, caregivers whose kids are in those communities, or girls themselves from those communities, because I can’t speak to those experiences. But the people I talked to in the neurodivergence section would talk about how a lot of times parents try to protect them—like, by not telling them about their neurodivergence, or by sort of framing it as a superpower, or not talking about the difficult things. And I think it was Amanda Morin—who’s this awesome neurodivergence and inclusive-schools expert—who said, you know, “We need to teach them about the world’s expectations, not so that they can conform to them, but so that they can understand when they don’t, and advocate for themselves.” So, you know, that’s what this whole thing is about—knowing who you are, understanding a little bit about the world, so that you can be who you are—whether that is, you know, the sex you were assigned at birth, or whether that is living in, you know, a larger body, or all the things. Like, any area where the world is going to try to tack on one more reason a girl isn’t good enough—how do you equip her with, like, real faith and love for who she is? So that was important.Jess LaheySpeaking—well, speaking of neurodivergence, did you have to change anything about the way you ran your focus group or the way you did your interviews, based on the fact that you were then interviewing people with neurodivergence?Kate RopeNo, because they did that for me. They were amazing. I mean, I had one participant who was, I mean, just so eager to share everything. And early on said, “I interrupt. I interrupt all the time.” And then another participant said, “So do I. It’s really hard for me not to. I need to say the thing when I think the thing.” These girls were clearly in families where they had been supported with the right—Jess LaheyAnd empowered...Kate RopeSupported and empowered with, like, you know, the necessary school supports or whatever—but also just the understanding of themselves. And so they knew the language, and at one point, the girl who had started off the bat saying, “I interrupt,” and she wanted to show everything in her room, you know, and I just let her go. Like, I wasn’t about—I wanted to see her as who she was. I wasn’t trying to get anywhere specific with the focus group. I really let that go. But at a certain point, she said, “You know what, I can’t stop interrupting, so I’m just going to mute myself, and you’ll see me talking, because I’ll still be interrupting—but I won’t be interrupting.” And I mean, I was, like, blown away. I mean...Jess LaheyWow!Kate RopeJust the—in all the groups—the self-awareness...Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThe skills they had developed, you know—and sometimes I would talk to girls who—kids who, you know, had been hurt by their experiences growing up. And I could feel that, but they had processed it. You know, maybe if, from their family of origin, they weren’t getting everything they needed, but I got to them through a mentoring organization where they were starting to get that. And so they were able to articulate what those challenges were and what they wish they had had. So it’s not that they—it was all, you know, rainbows and—and, you know, puppies, but...Jess LaheyWell, it sounds like going to…Kate RopeBut they all had incredible insight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like going to the kids also through organizations that had given them that opportunity to learn about their empowerment and to give them the language also helped you, because then again, as I said, you didn’t have to—you didn’t have to work quite so hard to help elicit some of the conversations that you needed.Kate RopeRight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like that was a really smart way to go.Kate RopeYeah, these—these kids were in those organizations, in those conversations already. You know?Jess LaheyI’ve learned some of the hardest lessons about interviewing when I’m trying to transcribe my own notes. And Tim laughs every single time I do this, because then I hear myself talking too much, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, just shut up. Shut up. Let them talk. What the heck are you doing?” And that—I think that was one of the greatest lessons I had to learn through all of my journalism and through all of my writing these books—is sometimes you just got to shut up. And that’s why I think having these other kids available in the focus groups—brilliant—because they’ll egg each other along, they’ll get conversations going, and you can just shut up and step back a little bit. I love that.Kate RopeYeah, and they’ll—they’ll, you know, in that particular focus group, the one girl who was interrupting a lot, another one was starting to have difficulty with it, and she was so respectful in how she said it. She said, “I feel differently than you do, and it’s hard for me to think when you’re talking so much.” And maybe it was after that that she said, “Okay, I’ll mute myself.” But they were expressing these things to each other in the most kind and direct and empowered ways. But I’m a huge talker, as you can already tell on this podcast, and I do talk too much. And so, I mean, literally every focus group opens with me, like, blathering on about what I’m doing, and then me eventually saying, “You know, I’m going to shut up and you guys talk.”Jess LaheyIt was also big—it’s a big thing that happened in my teaching, as well, when I let them sort of lead class a little bit more, and I got to step back and just sort of watch them do their thing. I learned way more about them. They learned way more from each other. And it was—it worked all the way around. So, is there anything else you wanted to share with us about the interviewing process for this book? I mean, you have so much experience in interview space, and I love that you’re just talking and talking, because I’m actually learning a ton from you.Kate RopeOh, thanks. That means a lot, because I’ve learned so much from you. I have your book right here. I’ve got my, like—my “best of.” So…it was difficult to—I got men. I did, I did get some dads, but it was difficult. And if I were doing this book again, or if I do a similar book, I’ll really—you know—it’s harder. There aren’t organizations. There aren’t super-active Facebook groups of dads, you know, but it’s growing. There’s a lot more attention paid. And so I will definitely start out earlier thinking about what are the harder people to reach, and I’m going to prioritize reaching out to them. So it’s not like, “Oh God, I got to turn this book in, and okay, I heard from five fathers, and that’s just going to have to be good enough,” you know?Jess LaheyThat’s a really good point. I’ve actually done a lot of thinking about ways to access more fathers as well. And I was thinking, okay, maybe you could come at it from the influencer angle, or the—you know, that kind of thing. It is tougher, especially in the education space. And there are lots of conversations in education about how do we make it clearer to fathers that they are really and truly invited into education in a way that traditionally it’s just been the moms. And it has been—it’s been tougher, but I think it’s really valuable and really worth doing. So I’m so glad you brought that up.Kate RopeYeah, and as we’re talking about it, I’m thinking focus groups could be really good for that. I mean, it’s hard—it’s hard to get adults available at the same time. It was hard to get kids available at the same time. But it’s—you know, I don’t want to throw men under the bus, but like—like kids, they might do better sparking each other’s ideas...Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely.Kate Rope…than having to just make it up from whole cloth when you’re asking them. And, you know, I think people—they get nervous. They think this is like a permanent record, or, you know, it’s like those—you know, those old-timey photographs of people who are like, “This is the record of this moment of our lives.” And so, you know, I did the same thing with caregivers that I— I mean, mostly I did Google Forms with caregivers, but I did interview some on the phone or in person, and I said the same thing to them: “You’re in charge of what goes in this book.” You know?Jess LaheyLove it. I absolutely love it, and you’ve written a really powerful book. You’ve written a really wonderful and eloquent book. I’m really excited to be able to take it around and hold it up and say, if you want to read a book about, you know, girls and parenting girls and taking care of girls and raising girls, here’s a new book that I really, really recommend. So thank you so much for writing the book. It was a pleasure to read—it really was.Kate RopeThank you. That means—you have no idea. I mean, just even coming on this podcast is, like I said, leveling up. It’s like, you know, I remember reading and meeting you guys for the first time at Mom 2.0 when my book was coming out, and I had no idea what I was doing. I still think I wouldn’t know what I was doing if I went to a thing like that again. But, like, I’m just not a networker. Worship is a strong word, but definitely looking up to you guys, you know? And listening to the podcast, you know, every episode—and then I’m like, “I’m going to be on it.”Jess LaheyWell, if people want to learn more about you, where could they go to do that?Kate RopeYes, my website is katerope.com. I’m on Instagram.Jess LaheyA lovely website. I was there just earlier today. It’s a lovely website.Kate RopeI am very happy with Booyah Creative—Kayleen Mendenhall, who designed it—@kateropewriter on Instagram. And I have a Substack, Strong as a Human. You’ll find me any of those places.Jess LaheyOh, I love that.Kate RopeAnd Strong as a...Jess LaheyWe will put you—all of your stuff—yep, we’re going to put the cover in the show notes; we’ll put all the links in the show notes. And I’m just really grateful to you. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, and for everyone else, you know how it goes... Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe