Builders & Doers

Goutam Challagalla is a professor at IMD Business School, where he directs the Strategy Governance for Boards program. His new book, Clean Winners, studied hundreds of companies and found that the vast majority are approaching sustainability backwards: putting it at the center of strategy instead of using it as an engine for customer value and innovation.The conversation started with a single quote from activist investor Terry Smith that changed Goutam's thinking: "Any company which thinks it has to define a purpose for Hellmann's Mayo has lost the plot." From there, we got into why the same mistake companies made with digital transformation is now happening with AI, why you should design for customers who care least about sustainability, and what Sustainability 2.0 actually looks like after the current backlash plays out.Goutam's book is Clean Winners, co-authored with Frédéric Dalsace: ⁠https://store.hbr.org/product/clean-winners-sustainability-strategy-that-puts-customers-first/10822Connect with GoutamLinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/goutam-challagalla-161118bb/⁠Timestamps:0:00 – Cold open0:58 – The Terry Smith quote that changed everything3:02 – Unilever: from poster child to cautionary tale4:50 – "Not one person out of a thousand could name their favorite brand's purpose"5:50 – Lifebuoy: the one time brand purpose actually worked6:48 – Why you can't scale purpose across 300 brands7:18 – The wrong question: "How do I become more sustainable?"8:07 – You don't need an AI mindset, a digital mindset, or a sustainability mindset9:07 – Sustainability, AI, and digital are enablers, not the center10:14 – The four mindsets: operators, strivers, enthusiasts, resonators11:36 – Why enthusiasts invest heavily and get worse results12:03 – "Ask not what you can do for sustainability, but what sustainability can do for you"13:02 – Undesired outputs: the real zone of innovation14:10 – John Deere: 65% fertilizer savings through precision AI16:17 – Healthier soil, lower cost, and no farmer cares if you call it "sustainability"17:06 – The compliance trap: one CSO spends 90% of her time on it18:08 – 18,000 regulatory changes in one year18:52 – Big Four consultants making more on compliance reporting than advisory19:18 – The pendulum swung too far: passion, regulation, and the correction20:47 – Green, blue, gray: why customer segmentation is the key22:02 – Green customers are never more than 10% of the market22:43 – "If you design for the greens, it will never scale"23:16 – Win with the grays: the counterintuitive move23:54 – Three pathways to resonance: product, usage, and strategic25:05 – "We made the mistake of thinking our goals should be the customer's goals"26:04 – Usage resonance: P&G's 10-minute laundry cycle26:36 – Autonomous mining trucks: zero accidents, 24/7 operations, pay-per-haul29:07 – AI theater vs. AI value: the same trap as sustainability theater30:25 – The one question boards should be asking but aren't32:04 – Why you don't need sustainability to attract talent32:36 – How the CSO role needs to evolve34:50 – The dot-com analogy: this is a correction, not an ending37:03 – Supply chain resilience: the cocoa crisis and Kit Kat's pricing problem39:10 – "What's the one thing to do Monday morning?"39:23 – Follow the money: strategy is where you invest, not what's in your documents40:25 – The hidden gem: East West Seeds in Thailand42:00 – Closing: don't let politics color your business vision

Nik Kinley has spent 35 years studying human behavior, from prison therapy rooms to Fortune 500 boardrooms. He's assessed over 1,500 senior leaders, coached CEOs of national banks, heads of national security, and Formula One team managers, and written nine books on leadership. In this conversation, Nik breaks down how childhood wires your leadership instincts, why "power corrupts" is a dangerous myth, and what's really happening inside organizations as leaders rise higher and hear less truth.Nik's latest books include "The Power Trap" and "Rewriting Your Leadership Code: How Your Childhood Made You the Leader You Are and What You Can Do About It," both informed by his research program at IMD Business School.Connect with NikWebsite: https://nikkinley.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikkinley/0:00 – Cold open0:50 – Nik's journey: sales, prison, boardroom3:03 – Assessed 1,500 leaders: royalty, criminals, Formula One4:20 – What extremes taught him about human nature5:10 – "We are far more products of our environment than we believe"6:50 – Authorship vs. accountability: a critical distinction8:22 – The poor performing employee problem10:10 – Nature vs. nurture: what the research actually says12:07 – Under pressure, you run on automatic12:59 – Emotional regulation: 60-70% genetically inherited15:37 – How your parents' conflict style shaped yours17:03 – Every time you rely on instincts, you're gambling blind19:24 – Darwin got mistranslated: fitness means adaptation20:00 – "Adapting is not enough. Being agile isn't enough."21:00 – The HR industry's 50-year mistake24:05 – Why caring less matters than your people feeling cared for25:55 – Private equity and getting the team right quickly28:03 – Nik's model for behavior change (and why he hates simple models)29:58 – Why coaching should show results in 2-3 sessions31:20 – Context is the #1 driver of behavior change32:06 – What brainwashing research teaches us about employees33:45 – Teenage boot camps: why change doesn't stick35:18 – What forensic psychotherapy taught him about leadership36:02 – "The Power Trap" and why power doesn't corrupt38:08 – Confidence vs. denial: the entrepreneurial tightrope39:06 – Low narcissism and overconfidence actually help performance41:05 – When success tips into self-destruction42:18 – People stop telling you the truth as you rise44:37 – Leaders become less empathetic on every metric47:05 – The halo effect: why we overestimate leaders49:50 – CNN, social media, and the rise of image management52:10 – Cancel culture's residue on information flow53:30 – The perfect storm: power, pressure, and performance theater55:00 – Strategic drift: the real leadership crisis56:40 – Where to find Nik's work57:12 – Closing

Minyang Jiang (MJ) is the Chief Strategy Officer at Credibly, where she runs marketing, sales, tech innovation, and corporate strategy. Before FinTech, she spent nearly a decade at Ford Motor Company launching commercial vehicles with $95M budgets, and before that worked in human rights. She's the youngest member of Credibly's C-suite and a fiction writer who draws on Rilke for leadership inspiration.In this conversation, we talk about what it really takes to break into industries where you're an outsider, why no one makes space for you at the leadership level, how to spot AI theater in companies, the difference between productive and toxic conflict, and why cognitive offloading might be the most important personal decision of the AI era.MJ shares the Wharton framework she teaches her team for human-AI collaboration, her honest take on why her startup didn't work out, and the one question the best manager she ever had asked in a performance review.Follow MJ on LinkedIn and Medium.—0:00 – Intro and MJ's career journey1:00 – Ford vs. Credibly: big company vs. FinTech2:34 – Being the youngest (and only woman) in the C-suite5:52 – How much should you know about the product you sell?7:08 – Speaking the language of your customer9:14 – Selling trust, not mechanics10:24 – The skeleton key: switching industries without starting over13:11 – Should leadership be comfortable or challenging?16:02 – Self-determination theory: competence, autonomy, relatedness19:50 – Short-term gain, long-term loss20:55 – How to spot a healthy vs. toxic workplace25:22 – Productive conflict and the Harvard Everest simulation28:01 – Rotating the conscientious objector role29:05 – How to close a heated meeting well30:40 – Uncurb: entrepreneurship, failure, and honest investor conversations34:04 – Entrepreneurship is dealing with your insecurities on a timeline36:07 – How to spot AI theater in companies39:30 – Agentic commerce and the human-AI interface42:22 – Tasks that should never be fully automated44:09 – The Wharton framework: where AI adds value vs. where humans do46:34 – Lightning round: metrics, servant leadership, Fortune 10 budgets48:47 – Rilke, The Panther, and what shaped her thinking50:06 – 30-day playbook for responsible GenAI transformation51:52 – Cognitive offloading and the search for meaning

At 22, Sarah Mae Selnick was cold calling billionaire real estate developers from a boutique brokerage in Manhattan with zero experience and no idea what she was doing. By 24, she had put together the largest single transaction in Brooklyn's history: a deal worth over a billion dollars.Now she's the founder of Source Forward, a company using AI and building data to help commercial real estate owners in New York City tap into energy incentives and sustainability technologies they're leaving on the table. She also leads a decarbonization task force alongside major utilities and technology providers, drafting policy recommendations for NYSERDA.In this episode of Horizon Search, Sarah Mae talks about what NYC brokerage taught her about persistence, why "no" really means "not right now," the shiny object trap that nearly derailed her startup, and why energy costs are about to hit real estate owners harder than most of them realize.Source Forward: https://sourceforward.orgSarah Mae on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/sarahmayselnick—Horizon Search is a podcast by Horizon Search Institute exploring how leaders, founders, and researchers are navigating the forces reshaping industries and institutions.Subscribe for new episodes. Learn more at https://horizonsearch.org—0:00 Cold calling Jonathan Gray at 220:50 How she got into NYC commercial real estate2:07 Persistence and goldfish memory4:17 The Vonnegut rule: New York vs. California5:30 Why phone calls still beat email6:15 The blind spot in commercial real estate8:12 How Source Forward uses AI for building owners8:55 Shiny object syndrome and founder focus10:30 How her co-founder snapped them back on track11:55 Scaling a small team with AI14:06 The billion-dollar Brooklyn deal at 2415:40 Leading a decarbonization task force17:05 NYC's climate goals and the UN SDGs17:43 Moonshot: becoming the household name in building energy19:13 Green tech trend: big building data for everyone20:25 What real estate owners underestimate about energy costs21:15 Favorite NYC spot for inspiration21:57 Where to find Sarah Mae

Chris Brisson talks about accidental entrepreneurship, human-first messaging, and where AI is taking sales.He shares how he went from selling rims and tires on eBay to building software, what he learned from a stagnant business he had to reinvent, why most companies get SMS wrong, what “texting is the sacred place” really means, how AI agents are changing lead qualification and booking, what scaling a remote-first company has taught him, and why distribution is often the real bottleneck for founders.This is a strong episode for founders, operators, marketers, and anyone thinking seriously about messaging, growth, and building in the AI era.Connect with Chris:https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbrisson/Curious how AI is changing SMS and sales workflows? Visit https://www.salesmessage.com/Timestamps:00:00 From selling rims and tires on eBay01:03 Accidental entrepreneurship and early lessons02:14 What he’d tell his 19-year-old self02:39 From first exit to product builder04:45 The “death of Call Loop” and starting over06:26 Pre-selling Sales Message before building it08:25 Why most companies get SMS wrong09:29 “Texting is the sacred place”11:39 SMS vs WhatsApp vs social DMs13:40 Open rates, RCS, and modern messaging15:20 AI filtering, inbox changes, and the future of text17:19 AI agents, speed-to-lead, and scalable conversations20:49 Will AI end up talking to AI?23:35 AI schedulers and replacing the messy middle26:08 Lessons from scaling a remote-first company30:30 Resilience, sacrifice, and not chasing money33:05 Why distribution is the hardest part35:31 Built-in audiences, integrations, and growth43:17 Who inspires him right now45:21 The best advice he ever received46:41 Where to follow Chris

Most managers were promoted because they were good at the work, not because they were trained to lead people.In this conversation, Laura Ashley-Timms explains why so many “manager as coach” programs fail, why accidental managers are quietly draining productivity, and why the best leaders stop trying to be the fixer, solver, and solution giver.We talk about operational coaching, purposeful inquiry, coachable moments, the STAR model, the bottleneck effect, and what it really takes to build managers who create better performance through others. Laura also shares the story behind a major London School of Economics-backed study that found dramatic gains in management capability, retention, and ROI.A sharp episode for founders, operators, executives, HR leaders, L&D teams, and anyone trying to lead without becoming the bottleneck.The Answer Is a Question by Laura Ashley-Timms and Dominic Ashley-Timms, available via Amazon and other retailers: https://a.co/d/0gmY9gONConnect with Laura Ashley-Timms: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-ashley-timms/Connect with Dominic Ashley-Timms: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominic-ashley-timms/For more on STAR Manager, visit: https://www.starmanager.global/podcastTimestamps:00:00 Brilliant managers don’t have the answers01:00 Why this is a management operating system problem01:53 Why “manager as coach” training often fails04:03 The real cost of coaching confined to sessions04:33 The accidental manager problem06:43 Why most leadership programs aren’t properly measured07:55 Operational coaching as a mindset shift09:21 Why managers become fixers and bottlenecks10:18 How asking questions gives managers time back11:29 AI, management, and developing others12:13 What a coachable moment looks like15:54 Purposeful inquiry vs polite questioning16:53 “Helpful” questions that steal accountability17:49 How managers stop being fixers20:49 Why high performers struggle to scale21:14 The manager-on-holiday test22:02 The STAR model explained24:23 Putting leadership impact under academic scrutiny27:12 The 74x ROI result31:33 What actually drives the ROI33:42 Why management development moves at a glacial pace35:57 Transformation, not just another training program40:04 Why first-wave champions matter44:28 A three-question starter kit47:12 The “marriage saver” question48:05 What to say when you don’t know the answer53:29 Laura’s closing message for accidental managers54:10 Resources and where to find Laura

Mike Wu’s résumé looks like the classic prestige path: USC, investment banking, Sony, Harvard Business School, BCG, and then entrepreneurship. But in this conversation, he explains why that neat story looked much cleaner on LinkedIn than it felt in real life.We talk about career searching versus status chasing, what his failed search fund taught him about risk and timing, how HireFrame emerged from a real hiring problem, why offshore staffing succeeds or fails on context, how founders should think about delegation, and what AI is changing in global work.This is a sharp episode for founders, operators, hiring leaders, and anyone trying to build something real behind the optics.00:00 LinkedIn vs reality01:00 Meet Mike Wu02:00 USC, parental pressure, and choosing business05:30 What elite résumés can hide07:41 Search funds explained11:10 When the search fund failed14:35 How HireFrame started17:21 The real gap in offshore staffing21:11 Athena, AI, and executive assistants23:41 Training global SDR talent26:41 Delegation with Loom + LLMs30:08 Trust and remote hires31:42 Scaling HireFrame in the AI era33:44 What founders have to unlearn35:47 Risky bets that changed the company37:33 The hardest thing in business38:29 The future of global work in 203040:41 Where to find MikeConnect with Mike:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikewulnkd/

At 18, Alex found himself homeless in Japan for a week during finals. Years later, that same ability to stay calm in chaos shaped how he approaches startup life: uncertainty, pressure, constant fires, and the discipline to keep moving anyway.In this episode, we talk about the real lessons behind startup growth: what law school taught him about contracts and business, how he helped revive a SaaS that had stalled, why he spent months talking directly to users, what he learned from losing money on ads before they worked, and why CAC:LTV matters more than vanity metrics. We also get into hiring, team alignment, founder motivation, and why learning to fail may be one of the most valuable skills in business.If you enjoy conversations on startups, entrepreneurship, growth, and first-principles thinking, subscribe and share the episode with someone building something real.00:00 Hook: homeless in Japan at 1800:58 The Japan story and learning to handle chaos04:41 What law school taught him about business08:05 Is college worth it for entrepreneurs?09:58 What the company does and how he got involved11:58 Stuck at $25K MRR and what changed14:02 When to listen to user feedback and when to ignore it17:29 The “one lever” rule for startup growth21:03 What he learned from running ads23:44 Why adding friction improved CAC28:18 Losing $35K before ads started working31:11 Team alignment, transparency, and incentives35:14 Hiring for intelligence and coachability35:52 What keeps him motivated40:06 Why failing is part of the process41:51 “We are becoming” and the closing reflectionConnect with Alexhttps://x.com/penunurialexalex@drippi.ai

Howard Pearl explains how CARS returned over $600 million to nonprofits, why donor trust and operational transparency matter so much, how respect became his core leadership principle, what drove extremely low turnover, why mission-driven work broadened his worldview, and what first-time CEOs need to hear about confidence, discipline, and doing the work.This is a strong episode for founders, operators, nonprofit leaders, and anyone trying to build teams that perform without losing their humanity. Timestamps00:00 Leadership begins with respect01:00 How CARS returned $600M+ to nonprofits08:05 Taking over as interim CEO and scaling with data 13:14 How nonprofit work broadened his worldview18:02 Business, service, and political broadening23:29 Building low-turnover culture through respect 30:01 Can respectful leadership work in competitive environments?31:20 Ethics, fraud, and “there’s no victimless crime”36:07 Acquisitions, SaaS, and operational alignment 42:30 Speak to people in a way that shows respect49:19 Advice for first-time CEOs50:25 Where to follow Howard Pearl Connect with Howardhoward.pearl@gmail.com

In this episode, speaker-coach and former educator, Danny Brassell, breaks down why great communication is rarely about “more information” and almost always about better stories, better structure, and one clear next step.Danny walks through his 5C process for high-converting talks and pitches: start with clarity on who you serve (because “if your audience is everybody, your audience is nobody”), then connect, teach content strategically, give one call to action, and finish with an emotional close. We also get into practical (and surprisingly ethical) persuasion: why “choice is confused and cause you to lose” , why “crocodile tears” stories backfire long-term , how to build a “story bank” fast , and how a single safety story (“Two Finger Joe”) drove a measurable behavior change. If you’ve ever been “liked” on stage but didn’t convert, this one will fix your mental model.Connect with Dannyfreestoryguide.comSubscribe for more conversations like this.Timestamps0:00 Stories sell 1:02 Danny’s “Pivots” origin story5:21 Why one-shot training doesn’t work6:33 “Location, location, location” in a speech7:48 Ninja strategy: study 45-second award speeches 9:56 Consistency beats talent 12:12 “Stories we tell ourselves” + the 5C setup 13:08 The 5C framework begins17:15 Vulnerability over bragging 17:48 Choice kills conversion22:01 Avoid “crocodile tears25:15 “Stop selling, start serving” 29:39 Build a story bank 31:49 “Two Finger Joe”41:44 Nervous? Tell the audience 49:28 Closing