VO BOSS

Although we wish it were true, companies don't need VO produced 365 days a year. So what do you do when things are slow? Anne & Pilar have learned that the ebb and flow is all part of the biz. The amount of auditions you receive is not indicative of your worth, but it does feel good to be busy. Filling your time with classes, coaching, and market research during down time can prepare you for when the busy season comes again, but slow days can also be times to relax + restore your hard working voice, mind, and body like a true #VOBOSS. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I am super excited to be back with special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Hey Pilar. How are you today? Pilar: I am good, Anne, and it's, uh, it's a little slow today. Anne: Yeah. You know what? That happens in our industry. We have days where, gosh, every time I turn around, there's something else to do. And I love those days. They're crazy days. But then there are days when it's slow. Back in the early days, Pilar, I used to like question, oh my God is what's happening? Like, should I get out of the industry? Like I haven't heard from any of my clients. I didn't book any gigs today. So what do I even do? So that would be a good topic for discussion today. Pilar: It's funny because I think that voice actors tend to equate their worth with the amount of auditions they get, which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Anne: auditions and or jobs too. So don't forget about that. Right? 'Cause they're like, oh my God, it's been slow. I haven't, I didn't book anything. I didn't get any auditions. What am I doing wrong? Pilar: Exactly. And it generally, it has nothing to do with you. There are things that you can do of course, but just remember that it's not necessarily a reflection on your ability. It's just sometimes it's the wave of what the market is doing. Anne: Yeah. The wave of the market. Pilar: I mean, there, there have been so many waves when people didn't know what was happening. And so clients and companies are still trying to figure out where to put their advertising dollars, and then that's when you see, well, what's happening? Why isn't, why isn't this coming in? Anne: I know and then you immediately blame it on yourself. Pilar: Immediately. And that's so that's so unhealthy. Anne: Yeah. It's a good thing to remember. I tell people because we do our BOSS advertising, the BOSS Blast, and a lot of times it really comes down to like what you said about the market. It is so true. We are driven by the market, right? When the market needs voiceover, they buy, not that they're not going to completely not need voiceover any given day, but there are waves. And it's always good to remember that if you're getting auditions, or you're submitting to any particular clients, corporate clients, if you're doing your own marketing, a lot of times any one particular company doesn't need a voiceover necessarily every single day. They're advertising. I don't really know one company that's advertising every single day, like hiring a voice talent. Sure, they're advertising, but it might be print. It might be email. It might be social media. They may not always be hiring a voiceover talent every single day. So remember when you send that email or that advertisement or that email for your services, remember that not every company has a new commercial every day or has a new e-learning module to do today. And that has a lot to do with offers that may come by. It just may be a whole timing issue. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. And so when those days are slow -- Anne: What do we do? Pilar: What do we do, exactly. And so one of the things that you can do is look at the business of where you are in your voiceover career. Are you sending out emails? Are you -- Anne: What's your marketing plan? Pilar: What's your marketing plan? Are you being top of mind for certain people, without being a stalker, 'cause that's something that we have to be really aware of. If you've had a client that you worked with, let's say a year ago, and you haven't heard anything or you got a new demo and you can say, hey, I just did a spot and I have a new demo. There's certain things that you can do during the slow time, during the let's say holiday times or the winter or the summer months. I was just thinking about this one very specific, slow time of the year is let's say Christmas through New Year's -- Anne: Yup, yup. Pilar: -- because nobody's thinking about that. Everybody's dealing with their Christmas presents or their Hanukkah or whatever they're getting into. Anne: Well, the majority. Pilar: The majority, true. If you're not religious, that's fine too. Anne: Yeah. International clients might be working. So there is that. Pilar: Right. Anne: Yeah. But generally slower. Pilar: It's generally slower because people don't have that. They're getting together with their families. They're planning trips. They're not necessarily thinking about the office work, and it's also end of year. So everybody's wrapping up their financial business. Anne: Well, yeah, and anything that is needed for the new year, or to end the year for the holiday, for example, any holiday advertising, hopefully they've taken care of that months before. Right? And so during that end of the year, they're hopefully planning for what's happening, you know, in the beginning of the following year. Pilar: Right. But they're not concerned with, oh, I need to hire this. They're not necessarily as concerned as they would be let's say in a heavier year for that particular company, that particular business. So it's a great opportunity to sit there and look at your plans. Anne: Absolutely, absolutely. Look at where you are right now in your career and what can you do to grow? It's the most opportune time to market yourself or figure out, if you're not marketing yourself, how you can start or how you can market your better. Pilar: Exactly. So what can you do, let's say, in those slow months? Well, you can take a class, you can work on your craft. You can look at your emails from people you've done business with, people you want to do business with, do a little bit of research. Basically we are so lucky that we live in this day and age of the Internet, because all we have to do is Google a company and see what their practices are. You can see that the health and the range of a company you're going after, you know, XYZ company, say, well, what is it that they're, they're going after? What are their spots like? What are their radio spots like? What are their TV ads? What is their marketing push, and see what could be interesting for you, let's say if you're, if you're looking at a specific company. And then when you're looking at your own stuff, everyone has a different style. Some people are really organized. Some people are not. People have, you know, little tabs that they do. They have spreadsheets. Some people are fly by night. I'm a little bit of both. I like to make lists, but I'm not necessarily a spreadsheet kind of gal. So I'll sit there and look at -- I have a very specific list where I'll look at, you know, who have I heard from? Who have I not heard? Anne: I think it's a really good time to, if you don't have a CRM or if you either invest in a CRM or take a look at your list of clients that you do have. I have a couple of different CRMs that I work with, one of them specifically because I do a marketing program, the BOSS Blast for other clients. So I am looking at that CRM and finding out, when is the last time I contacted this person, if they're not on the list to get them on that list. And I love what you were talking about in terms of researching companies that you might want to try to reach out to and contact and investigate like what's their market like? What are their new products? What is their form of reaching out to potential clients? That's one of the things that I always tell my students to do is, hey, if you want to be aligned with a company, go check out their website, sign up for their mailing list. I know I'm like, I have so much email. This is why I have like 900,000 emails that are unread, but I sign up for a lot of company email lists so that I can find out how they are marketing. And this is part of my ongoing research anyway, to make sure that I'm current and relevant in the corporate realm of things, because I do a lot of corporate narration. But that also is a very good reference for commercials as well, because companies have products, and they advertise those products. So not just for corporate narrations but for commercials and basically all sorts of voiceover applications for researching companies and finding out who they're reaching out to. Maybe they're now reaching out to a younger demographic. So what does that mean for you? So keeping that research kind of at your fingertips can really help you for when you're auditioning starts picking back up or your jobs start picking back up because you're going to be really relevant and current with trends. And I think that that's so very important that you do that, especially if you're in the middle of your career, and you may not be actively coaching with anyone right now. It's something that I do almost on a daily basis. It's market research to find out what are the trends, what are, what's getting hired? How many people that I see posting on Facebook or that are just starting off that say they don't watch commercials. Oh my goodness, no. You have to watch commercials. That's like your homework. Pilar: Yeah. I think that that is just such a goldmine that people I don't think realize. And that's part of your homework. That's, as much as it is doing research on a company, it's being aware of like big events throughout the year. Anne: Sure. Pilar: Like the Olympics. Anne: Yeah. Cultural impact. Pilar: Like the Super Bowl. Like the Oscars, all those commercials that come on, inform us what the industries are interested in right now. Anne: And why am I watching the Super Bowl mostly this year? For the commercials? Pilar: Exactly. I don't want to downplay the, the actual Super Bowl -- Anne: Oh no, I'm not downplaying, but I -- look, if your team isn't in the Super Bowl, of course. Do you know what I mean? It's not, I'm not saying I'm not watching the Super Bowl for the Super Bowl, but I also, as much as I watch the Super Bowl for the Super Bowl, I watch it for the commercials. Pilar: Exactly. And it's so interesting when there's a big event going on, you're going to see the different patterns. Like for example, if you're watching the Olympics or any Olympics or any big event, whether it's the Emmys, or Country Music Awards -- Anne: Advertising changes, yeah. Pilar: -- they are focused. They have a very, very specific demographic that they're aiming for. So it's really key as a voiceover actor to see who are they aiming for and what is it that they want, and then contributing as part of that. Because if you don't put yourself in that whole part of the process, then you're missing out on a lot. So it's really important when you do have time to think of yourself as one of the cogs in the wheel that's getting this done as you are, you're planning your financial and your email marketing throughout the year. Anne: And speaking of spending time on yourself, right, while things are slow, you can absolutely take classes. There are so many wonderful opportunities out there for educating yourself and furthering your performance, furthering your, your business acumen, all types of classes that you can take, acting classes. You know, improv, we were just talking, we had a whole episode on improv, which was phenomenal. But yeah, doing something that can help you to really get your performance kicked up a notch so that you're ready for when those auditions do come around again. Pilar: Yeah. And even, even something as simple as yoga, tai chi, centering yourself, all of that is so important because that just adds, it just gives you colors and flavors. So when you go and you do an audition, it's basically like having your own proper tools to be able to stand in front of the booth when the time comes. Because for example, this has happened to me over and over again, where I'll get an audition the night before it's due the next day, you have to come up with this accent, or you have know about this product. And I'm like, I don't know about this product. So for me, like what you're doing in terms of looking at all those emails, all the marketing, seeing how these companies work, it basically for our general knowledge, it's always, it's always important to be sort of on the pulse of what's happening. Because when the time comes and you have that audition, you have to be able to just produce it, just like that, snap. So whatever it is, whether it's a new accent or it's a new product, or it's a new idea, and you're like, okay, what is this? So that, you know, you quickly have to Google, you want to be Googling and you want to be interested and looking at the world, because that's going to help you when you're sitting there by yourself, in the booth going, what is this? Anne: Oh, yes. Look at the, I like that. Look at while you're sitting there waiting, look at the world. That's such a cool concept though. Really, get out there and look at the world. And you know, what I really love too is if you're not watching television and listening to those commercials, right, which gives you a nice, I think, pulse on trends in voiceover coming up and as they are, you know, you can also go to a really great resource on the web, like YouTube or ispotTV is amazing if you want to go check out commercials. And you know what's interesting, really understanding and really listening. You know, how many times I've gone to, I spot and you listen to a commercial. You're like, okay, in my head, I hear it this way. But in reality, if you watch it, and I noticed that you had mentioned this before is to listen with no image, right? Don't look at it, but just listen to the voiceover. And I think that's a really, really great tip. I want you to just listen to the commercial and listen to the voiceover because there's so many times where we think we hear something, but yet when you really sit back and listen without any visual, without anything else that's disrupting your focus, you're going to be able to hear those nuances. And those nuances are so, so important. A lot of times with students, I'll be like, okay, go check out this YouTube. And I don't want you to watch it. I want you to just listen to the voice and how the notes are happening and the nuances and the emotion as this piece progresses. Listen to the nuances of the voice and how they are responding and telling the story and emoting and tugging at our heart strings. That I think is so, so important. That alone, if you spent a certain amount of time per day just doing that I think would really help your performance. Pilar: Yup. You would start knowing each company that advertises, they do have a signature. It's really subtle, but then you start learning what each company's signature is. And that's so important when you go into the booth because you know, when we go into the booth, we get a spot at 6:00, and everything's, it's always rushed. But if we take the time, when things are a little slower, and we're doing this on a daily basis -- again, I mean, I'm not saying spend all day watching TV, but you spend 10 minutes -- Anne: Consider it market research. Pilar: -- let's say a couple times a day in market research, it's for your own benefit. Anne: Sure. Pilar: Something that I, I really like doing, Anne, and I do this periodically is that I go over my old conference or class notes. How many times have you opened a book and go, oh yeah. I went to this class. Anne: That was a good class. I remember that. Yup. Pilar: Do I remember anything about it? No, probably not. But when I go and I look at my notes, I go, oh yeah, that, they made a really good point. That's really important. And I think that it's so important generally when you take a class, whatever it is. And let's say you write notes, go look at your notes immediately after you've taken the class, and then look at them again one week later. Because here's the thing about learning. You know, this, 'cause you have been an educator for such a long time. The very first time we get something or we hear it, we may not necessarily get it fully. Anne: Yeah. Get 100% of it. Yep. Pilar: So to maybe see it again, we need to -- Anne: Go back, review. Pilar: -- read it again. We need to explain it to somebody because that's when it really sinks in. Anne: Sure, if you have to teach -- that's so funny that you mentioned that because one of the things that I used to do when I was a teacher in front of the class was we would have project days where the students would propose to me something that they wanted to do for their grade, like a project. And so a lot of times I would say, all right, if you want to learn this, then I want you to teach it to me, teach it back to me. So that's a really great tip there is to go back and review because you'll, you'll get all those nuances that you might've missed the first time. It's like watching a great movie, right? When you watch it a second, third, fourth time, you get all the other nuances that you miss the first time. And that I think is a great analogy to reviewing your notes. And even if you have a recording of the session, I get a lot of conferences where I get the recordings, which I can look at later. Now how many times have you ordered a course online and then you forgot about it. Right? I actually have multiple courses. I actually have a bookmark of places to go where I've bought courses that I need to go and take, or I need to go back and listen again. And so I'm going to say probably that's going to be one of the biggest, best tips that we can give, because I know it's not just me that's kind of addicted once in a while of I want to learn this, let me buy this course. And then I promptly make a log-in, a password, and then I forgot about it until three months later. And then I'm like, oh wait, I bought that course. Let me go and actually take it. So that's a perfect thing to do when things are slow, make sure you have a place -- you know, I just have a bookmark of, of courses. And so it just reminds me to go back and revisit those courses again and again, and get my money's worth. Pilar: And get your money's worth, but also for me, it's always about how can I use it in the booth because it's that moment -- you know, VO BOSSes, I know you faced this. You're sitting in your booth and you're going, I don't know how to relate to this copy, or I'm tired. I want to go to bed. I'm falling asleep, but you have to push through because it's due at a certain hour. So it's, it's basically having those tools. And that's why it's so important to listen over and over to these things again, because they're all there to help you give your best performance in the booth, whether you're auditioning or whether you're working, we talk a lot about auditioning, but then you get the job, then what you do? So you, you have to be able to have all those tools at your disposal. So having that downtime enables us to be able to kind of just sort of hone them. It's kind of like, you know, filing your nails. Anne: You know what's so interesting too? You know what else you can do in your downtime? Pilar: Yeah? Anne: You can actually like take some downtime. Pilar: This is very true. Anne: That is actually going to -- like for me, like I'm working, working, working, working, working, and then all of a sudden, whoa. Now what? Actually, like, I don't know, take a nap, go play with your fur babies, watch a great movie. I always love to watch good movies to get inspired, listen to great commercials, that sort of thing. I watch the Dodo videos, which are all about animals, you know, being saved and helped and goodness with animals. And that always just gets me emotionally, and it makes me happy. And believe it or not, that helps my performance in the booth. So yeah, take some actual time for yourself as well, because it's important for you to refresh. Whatever, whatever it takes for you to feel good, go for a run, get on the treadmill, go floating, so many things, right, that can really just help you refresh and be -- live in the moment. You know, spend time with your family, go on a vacation. Pilar: And also it's knowing that slow time is not a reflection on your performance or your ability or anything, any of that. Anne: Right. Unless that slow time is extended like for six months or so. I mean, you, you want to make sure that that slow time -- but you know, I'll tell you what, a few days here and there a week, you know, it's, it's very, very common. So I remember those first in my career, first of all, if you can stick out your career, right, and you're in it for the long haul, you'll start to learn that these ebbs and flows are normal, and you'll get more used to them. You'll get better at, I think, working through them. But in the beginning, guys, it's okay. It happens. I know so many people that will come to me, like, I don't know, what am I doing wrong? It's just slow. And I'm like, well, you know, it's been a little bit slow. So, you know, give yourself some grace, right? And in the meantime, here's what you can do. The first thing is always educate, educate, educate, right? Educate yourself. Either build a CRM, educate yourself about your clients, educate yourself about the market, what's trending, take a class. Right? All of the things that we've already talked about, work on your marketing that can help you to educate and grow. It's just the best thing that you can do, whatever you can do to grow. Even if that means taking some time off, right? To relax and get your mental health back because it's so delicate, I think, in the beginning for people who are not used to this industry, right? It's very much a mental game, very much a mental game of confidence. And you need to know that it's okay, that you will have slow days, and you need to be able to do what you can to push through them, to build up your confidence, to build up your performance, do whatever you can to grow, grow, grow. And don't let it, you know, don't let the mind start to play tricks on you. Pilar: Something, I think that's also really important is reaching out for help. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: Because for years I didn't have a voice over agent in Miami. I just basically found the jobs by myself. I had an on-camera agent, but I didn't have a voiceover agent. So when I came to Los Angeles, I got a voiceover agent really quickly. And then I noticed that I, I worked and worked and worked on my auditions, and I started thinking, oh my gosh, what's, what's wrong? So I actually reached out to my agents and I said, okay, I'm not booking, what do I do? Anne: What a great idea. Pilar: And so they were so helpful, and they each had just one or two lines. I mean, you know, they're so busy. It's not like they have a whole bunch of time, but they suggested I get with a few coaches. I had actually gone to one or two that they mentioned, but then I went to some others. They had some really good, it's very short sentences of critiques. And I just took that. And I was like, okay, great. And I'm going to work on it. Anne: Yeah, I love that. Pilar: And I worked on it. Anne: I love that you reached out to your agents. I think people tend to forget that it is a two-way street. You guys are partners. And you know, I think it's wonderful. If your agent can take a moment and give you feedback. And I think any good agent will do that to help you, because you guys are partners. I mean, you help them make money. They help promote you. So I think that it's, it's important that you do reach out for help. And you know what, reach out for help from your peers too. I think peer groups can really help when things get tough -- Pilar: People that you trust, people that you trust. Anne: People that you trust, and when you get down on yourself or maybe you're, you're lacking confidence, a group like that can help. It's one of the reasons why I put together the VO Peeps group so long ago. We were also isolated and it was to have a community which we could lift each other up. And I think that that is, that is absolutely important, when things get slow and you start silently going, oh my God, do I even belong in this industry? That's time to reach out, you know, reach out to your community, reach out for help. We're all here for you. BOSSes. We're here for you. So you can always reach out and come to us for encouragement, confidence to lift each other up. Pilar: And if you don't see something like that in your community, go ahead and start one. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Because for example, I, I, one day I just kind of lucked into this play reading class. They read new plays. It's every couple of weeks. And I go and I read. They give me a role and I read. Is there any monetary gain? No. Do I get a lot out of it? I get to read out loud. That's just priceless. I'm going to start another new reading accountability class. Anne: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Pilar: Just to read. D Anne: Don't let your auditions be your practice ground. Do you know what I mean? Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: Like I think that, you -- remember, your auditions or your work so glad you brought that up because you know, like I tell my students every day -- I give them enough homework, you know, I just like, I don't want you to be bored ever. You need to do something every single day that is voiceover related, and you need to practice. I think if you're at a certain level, it's wonderful to have that support of the community and to be able to work out and perform in front of each other. Be careful because depending on the group, you want to make sure you have somebody that has some experience in there that can give you some critique that is valuable to you. I think if there's a ton of, you know, maybe beginners in the peer group, it may not be as effective as it could be with somebody that has some experience in casting or directing. But it is so very valuable for you to practice that read every day. And don't let that be on your auditions. Really. Pilar: Yes. Anne: If you can spend 20 minutes a day just reading scripts, I think that that really, really helps, and also working out, it's another, again, another reason why I have VO Peeps, and we have workouts every month. We have a couple of different workouts every month. It's just so, so valuable to keeping those, those skills honed, and you know, and in check. So. Pilar: And I will give a tip that I think is probably the most important tip that I will give. If you have a cat, you can read to him. Anne: I love it. I love it. Yes. You can read to your fur babies. And your babies. Pilar: I just did that last night. I'm preparing a monologue for an audition. And I was like, you know what? He's right there. What the heck, why not? Anne: They're our biggest supporters. Pilar: They are. Anne: What a great conversation, Pilar. Great tips. Thank you so much. I'm excited. So remember guys, when things are slow, they don't have to be slow. You've got a lot of, you've got a lot of stuff to do. There's a lot of alternatives here. Pilar: You have a lot of homework. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: That's important. Anne: There you go. So I would like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, 100 Voices Who Care. This is a unique chance, guys, for you to use your voice and make a difference and give back to the communities that give to you. You can visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. Also love to give a great, big shout-out to our long-time sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect, and network like BOSSes like Pilar and I. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week. We'll see you next week. Pilar: I'm so glad we had this time together. Anne: Good bye, goodbye. Pilar: Goodbye. Anne: Bye, guys. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

As a voice actor, you are often given the power (and burden) of setting your own rates. Now, where to begin? Anne & Pilar have been through taking low paying gigs, walking away from jobs, and even getting their way in financial negotiations. It all comes down to knowing your worth. Tune in to learn how to navigate price setting, negotiating with clients, finding strength in community, and getting paid as much as you are worth like a #VOBOSS. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and with me today is very, very special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar! Pilar: Aloha. Anne: Hello, how are you? Pilar: I'm doing great today. And how are you doing? Anne: I am doing good. I'm doing really good. Except, ugh, I had a client that I had to let go the other day. Pilar: Why? Anne: Well, it was a new client that we were in a negotiation phase, and they wanted to kind of lowball me on a job. And it just turned out that what they wanted to pay, what their budget was, just did not align with where I am. And I was really standing tall and standing by what I'm worth. And I think that's a very valuable lesson that we should talk about for the BOSSes today is to know your worth. It is so very important. It's so hard to say no, to walk away from a client. Like it's terrifying I think for anybody starting out in the industry, right, to give up on an opportunity, especially when you felt like, well, I'm just getting started. I need the experience. Pilar: I wish I had known you when I was getting started, because I can't tell you how many times that happened to me. And it's interesting that you bring this up, Anne, because a lot of the times when we are starting out or let's say, you know, we've worked -- I did a lot of dubbing where the rates were standardized in Miami. Anne: So you didn't negotiate it. They were just, this is what we're paying you. Pilar: Exactly. So it's like, take it or leave it. And I was like, okay. But I think that voice actors sometimes think that there's something wrong with them because they don't know how to negotiate. And I think it's so important because this is such an industry where there is no standard set of -- there is a standard set of rates, yes, for the industry, but everybody offers a different price. So it really is up to you, the voice actor to figure out what it is that you are worth and to know how to negotiate. And so it's a skill that's learned. You may go into it, not knowing how to negotiate, but that doesn't make you any less of a voice actor. It's just, it's, it's a skill that has to be learned and it takes time. It's not something that happens immediately. Anne: It does. I think it's a skill that takes a little bit of practice. And I think you just have to be courageous. You have to be brave. And first of all, I want to just separate out, if you have an agent, the agent's job is to negotiate on your behalf, which is amazing. I love my agents who negotiate on my behalf. That's what they do. They get the work and then they negotiate the best price for us. And they're looking out for our best interests, hopefully for the most part, right? They're looking out for us getting the best price for who we are so they know what we're worth. So think about it. If you're put in a position where you are negotiating, and this job may not have come through an agent and you're got somebody that's inquiring on your website, I'd like to use your voice for this particular job, how much, that's where you have to stand firm in understanding that you are worthy of a fair market price, and a great place to go find out a baseline of rates is of course the GVAA, right? Who doesn't love the GVAA rate guide. There's also Gravy for the Brain. They have some good international rates there and SAG-AFTRA too. Pilar: SAG by the Numbers is the website. And I think that going to those different places gives you a gauge. So that will give you the confidence to be able to say, okay, this is how much I can command. Instead of taking the number out of a hat or allowing somebody to steam roll you. Anne: Yeah. It gives you a baseline. And I think too, the first time you say no, and then you're terrified, right, when you say no, or you walk away, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'll never get work in this town again. Because I've either made an assumption that is too large of a number, and everybody's laughing at me now because they're like, no, I can't pay that number -- that is part of the negotiation game, really. And you have to know that even if you're a beginner, you deserve as much as I do. I think we all deserve as much as the next person in terms of rates. Because there's so many new performers or new businesses, new voiceover artists that come to the game and say, well, I don't have the experience. You're not being hired for your experience. As a matter of fact, you're being hired for your voice and your performance. And your voice is just as worthy as my voice. So don't feel as though you cannot charge the same rate as I can. And I'm a big proponent of that because if you're not, and you're trying to undercut because you either feel you're not worthy, or maybe you just want to get the job, that doesn't do any favors to the industry either, bidding low. Because in reality, it's a market perception. I want to always bring it back to lipsticks or shoes. I have certain brands that I love, and I spend money for those brands. Let's say, maybe not lipstick or shoes, but yes, hair, but let's maybe talk tech, right? My Apple computer, my Apple iPhone. I buy brands and I pay the money. I pay the money. And so think of your voiceover business, the same way. I used to call myself Tiffany's. I don't go on sale. And I don't advertise my brand to be cheap. So anybody out here, you can do the very same. Now I'm not going to price myself out of, you know, I'm not going to be crazy high or anything, but that's where the rate guides come in handy. Right? You get a good baseline, and you take the chance to negotiate with a client. And most of the time, the best question that you can ask for this when you're starting in negotiation is do you have a budget? Okay? So if you're putting the position where they're asking you, how much would it cost? The best question to ask is, do you have a budget? Because sometimes their budget is a whole lot more than you thought. Um, that's happened to me multiple times. Well, I can't go over a $1000. Okay. I'll take that for a two-minute medical narration read. That's awesome. Yeah. I think I can make that work. That's what I've been known to say. And so it's a rule in negotiation that the person who mentions money first is usually the one that loses. So, so, there you go. So always have the question in the back of your head to ask if there is a budget. And then after that, if there is no budget, then go ahead and bid high or on the higher side of the range. Usually the rate guides, right, if you've looked at them, have ranges. Like a five minute corporate read could be $350 to $550 or whatever that is. Bid on the higher end. Because when you're starting a negotiation start high, because then the only place to go is not necessarily higher. Client's not going to say, oh no, let me pay you $800 instead of $500. Usually they're going to negotiate down. So pick the higher number that doesn't price you out of the competition like crazy and stand true to that. Because honestly, Apple doesn't care about, do you know what I mean? They're like your new iPhone is $2,000 or whatever it is, right? It's the price is that. And we choose to accept it or not. And so you as a business, same kind of thing. Pilar: Yeah. 'Cause it's like, when you go in and you buy a dress, and they tell you it's $100 or $500, you're not going to go and say, oh, can I buy $50 for the sleeve? No. Anne: Can I haggle that price? You might be able to haggle the price in some places, but not most stores that are retail. Pilar: Generally it's like, they're not going to sit there and give you half a dress because you're not going to -- Anne: At a garage sale maybe. Pilar: Maybe. Anne: Or consignment. You can negotiate those things down, but -- Pilar: We can start a trend, sleeves, just buying the sleeves. Yeah. But that's generally not going to happen. Anne: I'll take just the sleeve, please. Pilar: Exactly. Something, I think that's important though to mention is knowing your worth, yes, but also knowing your worth as to where you are and not trying to oversell yourself because I've seen this happen over and over where somebody throws out a number and then it turns out that they don't have a professional recording studio, for example. So there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I know, I do know people who've actually worked with their USB mics. Great. So you need to be able to show your potential client, this is my studio. This is what my studio looks like. This is what my noise floor is. This is what my software is, everything. And then that way they know what they're dealing with instead of sort of projecting something that might not be true. Anne: I agree. But I feel that before you're in that position, right, before you're in the position of actually negotiating a job, you're going to make sure, hopefully, that you have a studio that can create great audio. But I totally agree with you there. If you're just starting out and you haven't had anybody evaluate that, that's one thing I think that's important, especially now, since the pandemic. We're all expected to have a quality space where we can generate great audio from. So yeah. Very important. Very important for you guys to know that. And yeah, you're right. There's that argument that demos don't necessarily showcase what your sound is like from the booth. I've actually known people to put sound files on their website. Here's what my booth sounds like, as kind of a precursor. And I actually think that's not a bad idea. I don't have it on my own website right now, but I actually thought about, here's a noise floor or here's a, here's a quick sample from my booth so you know what you're getting. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to show who you are, because just like when you walk into a store, you're seeing what the ground is like, the arrangement of the clothing, and the register, is the floor clean. So you want to be able to, since you are projecting a business out onto the world stage of voiceover, because you don't know who it's going to be reaching, you know, you want to have your office in order. And then that, that makes it just that much easier to be able to negotiate and to stand up for yourself. Anne: The presentation of a professional. I love that. Because they want to know that they're dealing with a business, right, that takes it seriously. Gosh, that brings up a whole other whole other side of things. So too like your website, right, you should have a domain name that is yourbusiness.com, anneganguzza.com. And that storefront should absolutely showcase who you are to the world professionally. A lot of times when I go to buy a product, right, online -- isn't that what we do all the time? Pilar: We Google people, we Google the product. Anne: We go to the website, we look at the -- if the website looks any kind of cheesy at all or not trustworthy, I don't buy. And so that's such a great thing that you brought up for people to understand that that helps so much in your negotiation, that you are representing yourself as a professional business. And I think it does help also in the negotiation process if, if you're known to be a full-time voice talent. If you're not, you don't necessarily have to state that. You just have to look like this is your business, and this is what you do. Sometimes I'll, if a customer's or a potential client is reaching out to me, I might throw in there full-time voice talent, just so they know that's all I do. Like I'm not, you know, doing three different jobs, and this is my business and this is how I make a living. So that's a -- what a great point that was, Pilar to present professional. Pilar: Yeah. You have to present yourself as a professional because otherwise, you know, you're not going to be taken seriously. You reminded me of when I was in my agent's office for the first time, and they were sweet as can be. And one of them was busy, and she was like, you know, don't pay attention to me because I've got all this stuff to do. Obviously she had a huge job that she had to get out at a certain time. And the only thing she said at the end, she piped up and she said, oh, we've looked at your website. We've listened to all of your material. Anne: Oh, don't you worry. Pilar: And I was like -- and it was just so interesting, 'cause I was like, oh, these people did their homework. So if somebody's looking at your stuff, believe me, they are checking you out regardless of -- Anne: Whether you know it or not. Pilar: Whether you know, but also it's, it's also a question of it doesn't have to be the fanciest thing or it doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles, just like a voiceover booth doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles. The important part is are you producing sound quality where you can literally hear where it's so quiet that you don't even hear a fish fart? I mean, I know of, I know this one very well known voice actor who does promos inside his car, and he is just fixed it so he's got the microphone, he does it in a certain way because a lot of the times he's driving, and he needs to do something. Anne: But yeah, he's not going to audition while he's driving. Just, just, just want to -- Pilar: No, no -- Anne: Just want to say that. Pilar: -- obviously, no he stops on the side of the road. He's out here and he'll have something from New York that's due at a certain time. He will stop on the side of the road. He's got his whole little preparation. I don't know what he does, but he's got a whole preparation. He does it. He sends it off. The promo gets aired that night. So it's really about, can you, you know, can you come up with the goods, and the goods are showing yourself, as you know, as I've been saying -- Anne: As a professional. Pilar: -- as a professional, this is, this is what my space is. This is where you can find my work. It's all here. It's all out on the table. It's, it'll be really easy to find. So you can hire me, and you can negotiate with me because I have all these parts of the puzzle. Anne: All the parts of the puzzle are together. Yeah. That -- absolutely. It's such a cool side piece that you don't think about, right, when you're talking about knowing your worth. I mean, understanding that you're prepared to deliver quality, audio quality performance from a quality storefront or booth, right? And also I am going to go so far as to say that your website says a lot about who you are professionally. And that has a lot to do with the power you can have in negotiation and also helping yourself know your worth. If you yourself are committed to doing this for a living and making money at it, then that is step one of knowing that you are worthy of getting paid for it and getting paid well for it, getting paid fairly. We can only hope that every job we do, we get paid well. And I will tell you, in the beginning, when I first started out in the industry, I didn't have a concept of what my worth was. And to be honest, there wasn't, you know, so long ago that there weren't many groups out there online. Again, this, one of the reasons why I created VO Peeps back in the day was to have a community online that we could talk and say, well, what did you charge? How do you handle negotiation? What is this job worth? And so now we have so many resources available at our fingertips. It only just says to me even more that we have to even more be vigilant about understanding who we are, what we're worth in this industry. And not that we even have to convince, but just showcase that we are worthy of getting paid something that's more than, oh my gosh, something like 8 cents a word. No, not at all. Those jobs exist. And those are the ones that you don't necessarily -- for me, I try not to align myself with jobs like that because if the client doesn't value the service, right, to begin with, and they're putting out budgets that don't value the service -- maybe they truly don't have the budget. But again, I think a budget is all in what you, all in what you make of it, right? I pay good money for certain services so that I can depend on them. And the same thing should be thought of you, right? So if your potential client doesn't value the service that you provide, then maybe you don't want to align yourself with them or work with them because trust me, there will be somebody out there that does value you and the courage that it takes for you to say no to those clients that don't value your services -- once you say no, it gives you the biggest sense of -- well, you're scared and you're terrified, but it allows the door to open for people who do value your services and that leaves the room for them to come in and pay you what you're worth. So I can't tell you -- you'll do it one time. And then that door will open and you will get paid by someone who believes in you and values your worth. And then that will give you all the confidence you need to go and just negotiate and understand your worth and put out those prices, put out those quotes that are worthy of your time, because you spent a lot of money. You spent a lot of time to get to where you are. There's training, there's demos, there's practice, there's you, your personal investment is what people are paying for, right? Your personal investment. And that is worth something. Pilar: Absolutely. I totally agree. Something also that I have found when I used to negotiate back in Miami, is that no doesn't always mean no forever. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: Because there's a way to stand your ground because a lot of things can happen between the time that a number's thrown out and you walk away. And I've had that happen to me more than once where I don't necessarily say, I'm not going to take any less. I say, this is my price. Anne: Yup. Pilar: And I've learned that from some amazing voiceover people in the industry when I was very, very green and I went to my first couple of conferences. I learned from them that they stand their ground basically. And they just, they stand up for themselves and they say, this is what I charge. And they're very, very specific. And there is room, there is wiggle room, and it is very important to throw out a decent number and not too low, but obviously not out of the range, but when you're in that negotiating stage, I've actually had people come back and say, okay, all right, let's do it. Anne: Yeah. I agree. Pilar: So it's just kind of funny. So it's just, maybe there's also a mental sort of attitude to have about that saying this is who I'm worth. So you're not necessarily closing the door, but basically saying, here, I invite you to partake of my services for this amount. Again, it doesn't happen always, but sometimes there's a door that can stay open. Anne: Sure, absolutely. I totally agree with that. And people might have gone and they had a budget that was lower. And so they went and hired somebody with that lower budget and they weren't as happy. Right? So they come back to you, and that has happened to me multiple times too. And again, it's one of those things where you have to have the confidence, and guys, if you're just starting out and you don't have the confidence, it's okay. We all were there. We were all there once. Right? You just have to take the step. You've got to have the courage to take the step, to stand by what you're worth and walk away if the client doesn't bite. And, and the thing of it is too, usually the clients that are offering a lower price are usually the ones that will nickel and dime you for everything. And I have run into that. I have lowered my price. You know, I've worked with a client's budget. I -- here's my number. We negotiated. And they said, I only have this. And I thought, okay, all right, I'll work with you. And it might've been lower than I would have wanted. At some point you get an idea, a sense of who this client will be. Sometimes clients will just, if they get that low ball price, they're just going to be painful. They're going to be painful clients that will want everything for no money. And you only have to work with a couple of those, like maybe one of them once. And you'll be like, okay, never again, never again, because the amount of time that you spent trying to please that client at that low rate could be better spent working with a client who did value you or does value you and doesn't try to nickel and dime you for a bunch of pickups afterwards. Pilar: You have to know when to walk away. Absolutely. But it's also an attitude that I think is so important. As we've been saying throughout this time, this is what I'm worth, here I am. When you walk into a, an Apple store, you know exactly what you're getting into. Anne: Apple doesn't go on sale, right? Pilar: Exactly. It's like, what you see is what you get. Anne: Chanel lipstick does not go on sale. I'm just saying, I am just saying, I have bought Chanel lipstick before. They do not go on sale. And the funny thing is, is in a way, it makes me relieved because I feel like sometimes when things do go on sale all the time, I'm like, oh my God, let me wait until the right price comes. But Chanel, they're just, I know they're dependable. I love them. They've got my colors. They last, and they're worth the money. And so think of that client hiring you. It's going to be, you know what, Anne, whatever, can you do this job? Sure. Give me an invoice. I love clients like that because that means that you've worked with them enough. They trust you. And they're just like, okay, whatever. They know they're going to get good value from you. And so it is something to be said to work with quality clients, rather than trying to just work your way up. And as I mentioned, I really, in the beginning I did, I didn't know better, but now BOSSes, we can't be the only podcast or the only people who have said know your worth. However, this is just another step where if you've listened to this podcast, you have to know your worth. You have no excuses now to take something that does not pay you what you are worth. And maybe you need the experience of working with a client who may not pay you what you think you're worth. And that's okay, because that's a learning and a growing experience for you. But we're here to tell you that you don't really have to go through that if you don't want to, because you, you are worthy, you are worthy of a fair price. Pilar: Yeah. I think it's really important to visualize yourself as a -- Anne: Yes. Pilar: Just because we are a voiceover, we are a brick and mortar store. We just do it from our own area. But why not visualize yourself as an Apple versus a -- Anne: Tiffany's, Apple, Chanel. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. You don't have to be a 7-11. I mean, 7-11 is great when you're, when you want a Slurpee, but why not visualize yourself as, as you know, this is who I am and this is what I have to offer? Anne: That's so important. I got so excited because you said visualize that you are worthy or manifest. Pilar: Yes. Anne: It's so important, manifest that you are worthy of it. And that will carry you really far, that whole belief and the manifestation that you are worthy of it will carry you really far in this industry. I just had to agree with you wholeheartedly. Pilar: And also that you are a working actor. Anne: Yes. Pilar: That you are a working voiceover actor capable of taking these jobs. I think that people think that when they visualize -- and you know, we could spend a whole podcast on this -- I think people think that when they visualize something, that all of a sudden it's just going to magically like [snaps], like that. That is not what happens when you see yourself and you present yourself. You put it out into the universe; it's not necessarily going to come back immediately, but it does come back. Because if you had told me over 12 years ago that I would be making a living doing voiceover -- Anne: Oh my gosh. Pilar: -- I would have said, are you kidding? There's no way. I'm an actor. I've done on camera. And I love this business. I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, seeing myself do this. And so there really is something to be said. It does take patience though. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So, you know, you, you can get there and you can see yourself taking those steps. And once you're there, you can accept it. You can say, yep, it's done. It's done. And you just, what we're saying about knowing your worth is just that much closer to what it is that you want to accomplish. Anne: Yep. Yep. That successful business. And that's so funny. Like think of when you first started in this business. Did you ever believe -- like when I first started, I didn't really have a thought one way or the other. I just knew that I was passionate about it, and I just kept putting my head down and working. However, I will tell you in the beginning, it was a very different environment because coming from a corporate background, which I came from, you know, where that paycheck was given to me every two weeks or whatever, and I knew that money was coming -- coming into the entrepreneurship, and now all of a sudden being put in a position where I had to negotiate, my price was, oh my goodness. Like before people told me what I was worth, because I got a paycheck for it. Now it was me there to determine what was my worth. It's so interesting to go from the mentality of here, I've arranged a salary, and I work for this particular salary, and that's what I'm worth, to an environment and an entrepreneurship where I am determining what is my worth. That's a whole big pedagogical shift in your brain. And so yes, it takes time to learn how to do that. And it's okay guys. Just remember, there's always clients out there. I think if you make a choice, and you're brave, and you walk away from one client, there's always another client around the corner that opens the door for more clients and more work. You just have to manifest, and believe, and take that leap of faith. Pilar: Something definitely that you can learn to do. Anne: Good stuff, good stuff. Wow. So BOSSes, know your worth. You are worthy. So on that note, if you also want to make a difference and use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world, that will give back to the communities that are close to you, you can find out more and how to do that at 100voiceswhocare.org to commit. Wonderful, wonderful new sponsor. BOSSes, literally it takes less than a dollar a day, and you can make a humongous difference in a local organization of your choice. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. Also, thank you so much to our amazing sponsor ipDTL, because I get to talk to Pilar every week, and we get to talk about really cool things about how wonderful you guys all are and how we are worthy. We are worthy. Much, much support, and thanks to ipdtl.com. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have a great week and we'll see you next week. Bye! Pilar: Goodbye, guys. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Every script is the answer to a question. It's up to the actor to discover (and sometimes create) that question. In this episode, Anne & Pilar are here to keep you on your toes with improv techniques + exercises. They will teach you how to stay fresh with your reads, and - more importantly - why it's necessary to know the script, scene, and emotions for everything you read. Whether it be E-Learning, IVR, or commercial, you'll be ready to tackle it with authentic reactions + diverse copy interpretations like a #VOBOSS. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast, con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey Pilar. I'm trying to figure out how to lead into today's episode. And I've been thinking about different scenes that maybe I could place myself in. So maybe I'll come at the introduction not like I've come at the introduction like people expect, so I want to do something different. So what are you thinking? Where can I start? Pilar: Where can you start? "Let's start at the very beginning. A very good place to start." What's that from? Anne: I'm on a mountainside. Pilar: No, quick, what's that from? Anne: No wait. Okay. I'm on a mountain side in the sun and I'm feeling like I'm very happy, and I want to sing because I dunno, I like to sing when I'm happy. Pilar: And you're twirling your arms. Anne: I am twirling my arms, and I'm going to not have a dress on with an apron. Okay. So, well, let's just put it this way. I'll have a dress on that really works with the twirl, but it won't have an apron on. Pilar: Nix the apron, okay. Anne: And I'm going to be young with long flowing hair. Pilar: Long blonde flowing hair. Anne: Yep. That's it. That's it. And there's going to be animals. Pilar: Okay. Anne: There's going to be, well, there'll be cats. Of course. Actually -- Pilar: How about llamas? How about llamas? Anne: Okay, cats and llamas I think go well, lots of cats. Pilar: Except that llamas spit. Anne: Yeah, but they're not going to spit on the cats. They're going to spit on me because maybe I'm not in tune. Pilar: You're going to ride off into the sunset on top of a llama. Anne: But then I'll make friends with the llama, and I will carry the cats in my arms and hop on the llama, and ride off into the sunset because I've had a wonderful morning and day of singing on the mountain side. Pilar: And you're singing "Do, a deer" at the same time. Anne: Yes, exactly. Wow. Pilar: That's improv. Anne: Hey BOSSes. That's improv with that said, hey, everyone. I completely was so in the scene that I forgot my introduction. Pilar: You forgot who you were. Anne: I forgot who I was for just a moment. So here we go. Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, up on the mountain, singing and twirling with my cats and llamas, along with my special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar, come to the mountain and sing with me. Pilar: "The hills are alive with the sound of llamas." Anne: -- "VO BOSSes." Pilar: "Llamas and VO BOSSes." Anne: So Pilar, that was fun. Pilar: That was fun. Anne: I think understanding and practicing improv can really, really help us in our performance and in our business. So I think we should have today's episode featuring improv, and talking about improv, and how can we better our performances with improv? Pilar: Yes. Improv is something that I -- it's funny, 'cause I've always been scared of it, and I've never really understood it, although I've done it most of my acting career without realizing it. It's just really funny. We improv all the time in our lives when we're talking. So improv is all about taking what somebody is saying and you keep going. It's that? Yes. And moment with improv. That's that's like the biggest rule. Anne: Yes, and. Pilar: Yes, and, meaning -- Anne: Yes, and, and then what happens? Pilar: And then you add onto the story, and the intent is to be positive always. I mean, unless it's a tragedy kind of a thing which improv is, is really about it's taking whatever that person gives you and running with it, however you're going to do it, so. Anne: Well, I think it needs to fit into the context, right? So if we're going to try to improv and get ourselves into a scene for a script that already sits in front of us, so that maybe we can improve our auditions, right, there is some context to the script. Maybe we should just talk from genre specific right now, like commercial or corporate or e-learning, those types of -- versus character-driven spots like animation and video games. We can talk about that in a minute, but let's focus on the genres where people go in, and they have a commercial audition to get out the gate. Right? What is it that we're going to do once we look at the context of the script there, how are we going to work the improv into it? Pilar: What I've learned early on is it's so important to have a moment before. Anne: Yes. Agreed. Pilar: Especially if it's a product, let's say, that you don't know much about, or it's a storyline, let's say it's a medical narration, for example. And you're kind of, you know, what is this drug that has seven syllables? And I don't even know how to pronounce it. Well, you have to come in, if you're talking from a voice of authority, you have to come in with that knowledge. Anne: Right. Pilar: Now, you don't necessarily have to have knowledge of that particular drug. You can use something else that you have knowledge about. And then you set the stage by making up like a little sort of maybe 15-second play, which can be your lead-in which you don't have to record, but you're making the story up about this particular product and how it affected you. And you basically just start doing storytelling. Anne: Well, I think that's absolutely wonderful advice. And I think too, again, going with the context of it, let's kind of go with the medical, right? Because I do a lot of medical work, medical narration. I think it's important to know that in this storyline who you're talking to, and a lot of times people will, if want it to be conversational, they'll say something like, oh, as if you're talking to your best friend, but I think you need to go deeper into this, because you want to talk to a person that's genuinely going to be interested in that product because your task in most copy like that is either going to be to educate or to sell. So you need to be very clear as to who you're speaking with. And I think that that needs to come into your improv, understanding that let's say you might be a pharmaceutical representative, that's coming into an office and speaking to a doctor who might be interested in this particular medicine that might be able to help his patients. And so going with that, setting that scene and then improv-ing in that before you even open your mouth, because that will help you develop a point of view that makes sense and an emotion that makes sense and a voice that makes sense for that scene. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. Very true. And what you were saying, which ties right into that is the more specific you are, the better. Anne: Yes. Agreed. Pilar: A lot of the times, if you're doing medical copy -- let's say you've got the job. It's not like you're going to rewrite it or change, necessarily change the words, but you can give it a little bit of flavor by imagining different scenarios while you're speaking. Anne: And thinking of different subtexts too. Pilar: Yeah. Even like, you know, breaths or -- Anne: Rhythm. Pilar: Yeah. And just like little inflections that aren't necessarily in the script itself are going to give it a different flavor. Anne: I like that. Pilar: Yeah. So because it can't be all about the reading. It's -- there has to be -- a lot of people say, oh, well, you know, they, they won't let me improv. And it's like, it's not necessarily, it's about using those moments of improv where you can just kind of give a little inflection here, do a little something over there. Anne: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like that scene is playing while you are voicing the script, right? There's a scene that's playing. And so that improv, it doesn't necessarily have to come out in words, right? The improv, like you said, can be in breaths. It can be in rhythm. It can be in, again, if it's a medical narration and you're informing somebody about the capabilities of the product, right, it can be that subtext where maybe you're looking at the person that you're speaking to and they're not quite understanding. So you become more confident or you've slowed down on that explanation a little bit more. And so the subtext is, let me help you understand better what I'm saying. And so that improv comes into your scene, as you are voicing and into the storyteller, the sell of the spot. It really is something that I think adds a really nice layer and a realistic, authentic layer to when you are voicing. And this, by the way, does not allow you any time to listen to what you sound like. Again, I say this over and over and over again. Right? You cannot listen to what you sound like and say, oh, does that sound like they want it? No, you have to be in that improv, that story, in that scene, and really being there and telling the story. Pilar: I just want to clarify something for the VO BOSS warriors, that everyone thinks of improv as Second City or Saturday Night Live, but improv, you can use some of those rules and those tips of improv to give your script a different flavor, whether it's medical narration, whether it's e-learning, whether it's even, let's say, IVR, and you're saying, you know, "please hold." You know, you don't have to sound like the mechanical thing that you've always heard. If you maybe make a joke to yourself right beforehand, or you imagine something very specific. Anne: Imagine the person that's picking up the phone and listening to you and they're angry. Pilar: There you go. Anne: Because they want to speak to a person, right? So you're in that scene, and they're screaming at the other end. Right? And you're like, "thank you for calling. Your call is important to us." So as they're screaming, so it can change your voice. Right? It can change the way you're responding in a very interesting way, because I always used to say that I love telephony because I imagine that that person is on the other end of the line, and that they're not happy and they're concerned, they want to get to somebody quickly. So I actually will speed up a little bit. As long as I'm articulate, I'll speed up. I'll be kinder. And I'll try not to be that annoying sound at the other end of the line that I even get annoyed with. Pilar: Yes. Yes. And the important thing is specificity, which you've just mentioned. It's just to be as specific as possible. Anne: Right, because your message, when you're, that let's say telephony, right -- and this is crazy. We're talking about improv with telephony and medical narration, like the two genres that nobody would think, right, that you would use improv with, but think about telephony for a doctor's office, right? People are typically, they're not feeling well, or they're calling for maybe a member of the family that's not feeling well; they're upset. They could be nervous. They could be scared. And so that puts a different light on how I'm going to voice my message, right? Versus maybe a party store, you know, so understanding that scene and who you're going to be talking to again, is paramount. It is so important to get yourself in that scene and then play that scene before you even start talking. Because again, that helps you hit the notes. It helps you hit the emotion, the point of view that you need to be in once you start voicing that copy. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All true. Anne: Let's talk about a commercial, commercial genre, right? Pilar: Okay. Anne: Because I think a lot of people think that might be more resonant with them. It might come to them simpler if you're thinking about a commercial, because there's, I think there's more realms of scenes that can take place. There's more emotions that can take place. It could be a funny commercial. It could be a serious commercial. It could be all different types of commercials and scenarios that are, and you have to create that scene and improv your way into the voicing. Pilar: And here's the thing. If you listen to actors, when they talk about the roles that they did, when they admit, they say, well, no, actually it was all scripted, and you sit there and you go, oh, hey, how did they do that? It looked completely improv. That's because they had a very, very specific pre-life into going into the scene. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Pilar: Since as voice actors, we don't have to memorize. We've got the copy right in front of us. We can mark our script up. We can imagine a scene beforehand. There's always the moment before, you know, who, what, when, where and why you're talking. Anne: Right. Pilar: And then you bring those colors in. And this is something that I always think about too, when I'm doing commercial copy. And this is Mary Lynn Wisner taught me this, what is the answer I'm giving? There's always a question. So put the question before, and then you give the answer. Anne: Right. Act, react. Pilar: Right, exactly. And all those things being specific and question and putting yourself in the scene, let's say you're a Taco Bell. Don't just read the Taco Bell. Imagine you're sitting at a Taco Bell and you're looking at, at the menu and you're going, oh my gosh, the waffle. I mean, I don't go to Taco Bell anymore because, cause I will order that big, huge mother of a waffle thing. And it's so delicious and it's so caloric. So I'd like I have to stay away from them. So I like, I give that to myself once a month as like a prize. But if you focus on the scene and that -- Anne: Maybe you're eating that in the scene. And so you'll have a different reaction. Pilar: Right. You're chomping on it. And it's like, you know, the, the sour cream and the avocados just spilling down your mouth and everything, you know, and the more colorful details you give yourself, the more that's going to come out in your read. Anne: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and you know, what's interesting is commercial spot, I think sometimes when there's dialogue, it makes things easier for the improv when it's a dialogue or first person written. I know that when I do dialogue spots for, let's say, e-learning characters in e-learning -- when it's a written dialogue on the piece of paper, I find that there are so many -- it's harder than most people think, because I'll find that initially people will read the dialogue instead of being in the dialogue. And that's where improv can really help you because set that scene. And what it will do is if you are engaged in that scene -- Let's say you're walking in the hallway with your colleague, Sally, and you want Sally to make sure she gets the accounting numbers to Joe before Friday. You can, as you're walking along, "oh Sally." And then you imagine yourself walking, right? And so the rhythm of your line that you're going to say is going to change as you're thinking about, "oh, we need you to get these numbers to Joe by Friday because he's going to need them for this." So it will really change the rhythm as you're walking along or creating that scene, as you're thinking of things to say to Sally, in order to get your point across, because that's what will happen. All that like subtext, where she's looking at you going, "why do I have to get these to Joe by Friday? Because this is a lot of work, Anne." You know, so that kind of improv where you're imagining that as you were speaking of voicing, the dialogue can really, really help. Pilar: Yup. Yup. Absolutely. Location is so important. Putting yourself into the scene wherever you are, focusing on the here and now of it. Because a lot of the times we think, okay, I have to get through the copy or it's 30 seconds. Forget all that. The most important is what is going on right at this moment? What is the, the person who is not maybe physically there, but you are speaking to someone, are they standing next to you? Are they standing moving away from you? And you're trying to get their attention? "Oh my goodness, let me get your attention," and all that stuff you can put, you know, obviously you can put into your body, but you can put into your intention and that's how you can improv a scene or a, a commercial or, you know, a piece of longer copy. So the here and now, the establishing the location -- Anne: And establishing movement, movement through it. Pilar: Establishing movement. Yes. Anne: Yeah. That's the biggest thing I find people forget is they'll set the scene up, but then they'll forget to move through it. They'll set it up and the first sentence will be very much in the scene. But then after that first sentence, they just go into their own little monologue, and they forget about the scene. They forget about who they're interacting with. And again, that movement through the scene and the sound as if you're moving through the scene is super important. Now there's a lot to be said for leading in to help you get into that. But I think just the verbal lead-in is not enough to get you through an entire piece of copy, because we can't be completely improvising every single line, but we can certainly lead into a line that helps us get to the place where we need to be. And some of those can even be left -- I would say in the commercial genre, you can kind of, oh, you can kind of lead in with maybe a, a sound, I think, maybe a little bit of a word, but in other types of copy, let's say for narration, corporate narration, medical narration, telephony, you can't really keep those lead in words in there, but they can certainly help you as to get you in the place. And then you can, you can take them out. I mean, we all, we all know how to edit our stuff. So if it helps you get there, I say, leave it in and then take it out in post, you know? Pilar: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. But like extending a sentence. We don't say words the same way. We don't talk the exact same rhythm, every single -- I mean, some people do, but I'm always speeding up and slowing down. So why wouldn't I put that in? I mean, and it depends, obviously, because sometimes, you know, if you're doing a biography, you do need to have a certain pace, but -- and I'm speaking specifically for commercial copy, but improv is also about changing. It's like how the character changes. In a 30-second piece, there's always like, there's a problem. It's described. Anne: There's a solution. Pilar: And then there's the solution at the end. So the person reading the copy is going to go through all these changes, and they're not necessarily going to say them at the same time. Anne: Right. Pilar: So change is a big part obviously of, of that, which you can incorporate into, into the copy. Anne: And change, even in the middle of sentences, right? 'Cause emotion, because right, you've got a problem. Commercial copy, usually you have a problem or an implied problem. And then you have a solution. So as you have this problem, you know, it's I kind of have this problem, but oh, now I've got a solution. You can hear the change, right? You can hear the change within even a sentence. And that's where that improv and subtexts and imagination and being in the scene can really help you to make that a more authentic and believable voicing. Now question, Pilar. What about commercial copy that's written very selly, that doesn't seem to have, you know, those are always the ones that people talk about. They're like, oh God, look at the way they wrote this copy. And now they want me to sound like I'm talking to my best friend. So what are your tips there? Pilar: Well, honestly, I mean, that's not true. I mean, I get pieces of copy and I go, wow, this is really good. But a lot of the times they'll tell you, you want to sound, you know, conversational. That's like the big, the big word, conversation -- Like you're not going to, you're going to sound like a robot, but conversational and not announcer-like, and then they give you this copy. And you're like, you know, what do I do with it? You break it down, you break it down into beats. You run through it. You sing it. Anne: Question, answer. Right? Act, react. Pilar: Yes, question, answer. Right. Anne: For every sentence. Pilar: Yes. But that's not what you're going to put into the final part of the copy. Anne: No, no. Pilar: But it's basically like when you've got a piece of copy that you have to work on, it's like stretching your body. You have to stretch your body. So whatever, like let's say, I'm stretching my arms right now, and I'm stretching them forward. I'm also going to stretch my arms up, and I'm going to stretch my arms to the back. I'm not just going to do it one way. I think voice actors get a little stuck, and they go, oh, okay. I did it this way. This sounds okay. Let me stay there. And then we get stuck. 'Cause that happens to me all the time, and I'll listen back and I'll be like, what are you talking about, Pilar? All three reads were exactly the same. So I have to go back and I have to like, and I think I've used this before on the podcast, but it's kind of like when my dog would turn around three times and then, you know, all of a sudden he would go and do something else. And my cat does the same thing. So I, I do that too, because I realized that if I turned around three times really quickly, I either get dizzy or I start laughing, but I don't go back to where I was before. So I need that change. You know, improv is all about change. So it's like, if you get stuck, all you need to do is shake it off, go outside, touch your toes, scream in the booth, and start again because that's going to give you a little bit of a different scenario so you don't slide into that sameness, that sameness of reading the copy the same way. Anne: Then when your director is asking you for that ABC take, right, improv is going to help you get there. I'm always like -- Pilar: Yes, yes. Anne: You know, and I've said this before on a previous episode, everybody thinks about let's do the different sounds. This is take A. This is take B. This is take C. And that just is a, a simple, like change in your pitch. It's not even -- I want you guys, you BOSSes out there to really improv your way into ABC. And that is a skill, that is a muscle that, if you work on it, can really improve your ABC reads or your second take. And that is so important that, that second take, that ABC, they're all different. And I think there could be an entire like course on ABC takes and how you can get to them better because they do have to be different. And there's a lot of times myself even, Pilar, where I'm like, okay, let me give a second read. Right? And I haven't done the work enough. And I listen to that second read. I'm like, oh, that's kind of sounds the same. So really spend the extra moments and figure out what's happening in the scene or a change in the scene that can give you a different, alternate take. And don't just do the start of it. Right? Don't just say, okay, well now I'm on a mountain. Here, I'm in my office. But start and continue throughout the script. As you're reading the script, things change, right? The product solves your problem. And so then there's an evolution, and it may evolve in a different way. So create the scene all the way through the text. I would say, create the scene, be in the scene between the periods of the copy. Pilar: Yeah. I mean, I think it's simple that you could say, let's say for example, off the top of my head, um, I'm going to the store this morning. So I could say it, oh my God, it's 10:00, I'm going to the store this morning. Anne: Exactly. PIlar: Oh my God. I forgot the tomato sauce. I'm going to the store this morning. Or, oh my God, they're coming. They're coming at 7:00 and at six 15, I'm going to the store. I'm going to the store this evening. You know, I mean, and I'm exaggerating, but I just did three to four ideas. Anne: You just got up and you had a plant. I'm going to the store this morning, right? Pilar: Right. Or, or like, I'm going to, I'm going to surprise you. I'm going to the store this morning. Anne: I like that. Pilar: So you've just created different worlds. Anne: You just had four or five different reads, exactly different worlds, different scenes to react to. And that's where, BOSSes, I want you to start practicing, take a sentence, a tagline, and think of three different scenarios for it. Or take every piece of copy that you ever auditioned for and give yourself different scenes. Or maybe just take a line out of it and give yourself different scenes so that you can read it differently. And don't think about what sounds like. Don't think about what it -- think about being in the scene and reacting to the scene and improv-ing that scene. That's what's going to get you that different read. Pilar: Yeah. It's really important too, because I, I didn't even know what improv was, even though I was doing it. I was always a little scared of it. And so like, when I was working in Colombia, I used to improv all the time, not realizing that that's what I was doing, but stuff would come out of my mouth, and I would just do it. And they'd be like, oh my gosh. Yeah, let's keep that. And then I finally finally, because I read books about it and I would take like classes here and there. But finally, when I came out here to LA, I took an improv class at Second City. And then all of a sudden it all came together because all this stuff I'd kind of heard willy nilly randomly and what I'd seen and the way television and movies, people improv-ing, I was like, oh, that's what it is. You know, there, there are rules and there are things that you can do. And so I, you know, I think it's important. I mean, you know, that we are still going through what we're going through, but there are classes online that you can take. Anne: Absolutely. I've got one coming up as a matter of fact. Pilar: Oh, oh really? Oh, okay. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. With Scott Parkin, who is amazing -- Pilar: He's awesome. Anne: He is awesome at improv. Pilar: Yeah, yeah. He's really good. Yeah. And so it's about becoming loose because that's the whole point. When you're in the booth, then that's why you need to take classes. 'Cause it's like exercising that muscle. Anne: Yes, it's a muscle. Pilar: So when you're in the booth by yourself, and you've got a piece of copy, and you're like, what do I do with it? You've got these tools that you can use, the yes, and, the imagining, the being specific, you know, the being goofy. And you never know what's going to come out, but allowing yourself the space to say something and fall down and maybe not have it be right, and that's okay. Anne: Absolutely. I mean, I think that that is all part of it. Right? If it didn't work out, no, that's okay. Right? This is improv. Right? You change the scene. Right? Pilar: Exactly. Exactly. Because one thing that's really important to know is that yes, improv is an art, but it's also a craft. You have to practice it. You have to work on it. Anne: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a daily thing. Like honestly, I think you should take a sentence every day and give yourself three different scenes and three different ways. And I think do that, or do that with your auditions, right? Do that with your auditions daily. Even if you don't have an audition, take an old audition and do that. And I'll tell you what, it will keep you, I think, on your toes. And it will give you a better performance. What a great discussion, Pilar. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: So much fun. Pilar: That was really fun. Anne: So much fun. BOSSes, make sure that you get in the booth and practice, practice, practice, and that will help you perform at your very best. I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. Thanks so much, Pilar. Pilar: Thank you. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You know, there's a new song that just came into my head when you said that it could be like, "network like a BOSS, network like BOSS" Anne: Who! Pilar: "Network like a BOSS. Yeah. Yeah." Anne: Alright. BOSSes. Have a great week, and we'll see you next week. Pilar: Bye. Anne: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. 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Do you know the difference between dubbing, ADR, walla walla, and looping? In this episode, Anne & Pilar cover it all. Since the pandemic, there has been a boom in content creation globally. Dubbing movies & TV shows into other languages, and creating audio descriptions for the visually impaired has made content much more accessible and given voice artists more work! Stay tuned for Pilar's experience with voice dubbing + Anne's tricks for lending your voice artistry to on-screen performances like a #VOBOSS. >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast, con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza along with my very special guest cohost, Pilar Uribe. Pilar. How are you today? Pilar: Hola, Anne. ¿Cómo estás? Anne: Ah, tired. I am tired. Pilar. You know, why? Pilar: Why? Anne: Because I binged watched the entire season of "Succession" last night and ah, oh my gosh. Pilar: It's so good. Anne: So good. Pilar: So many cliffhangers. Anne: I know. Oh my gosh. Pilar: Yeah. I loved it. Anne: And I'll tell you what, sometimes I stay up later than my husband, so I'm always putting on subtitles. And when I put on subtitles, it makes me think of all these shows now that are coming out in streaming media, and dubbing, and ADR and all of these techniques that are coming out and really offering a lot of jobs these days to people in the VO industry. And I thought we should talk about dubbing and ADR for a little bit. What do you think? Pilar: Yup. Dubbing is very close to my heart. Anne: Oh my goodness, and it's just since the pandemic, just an explosion of so much content and media, and you have had some experience dubbing. I personally have not had much at all. I went to a training class on dubbing, but talk to me about dubbing because that's something I think you actively do, right? Pilar: Yes. Yes. That's where I got started in voiceover. Anne: Okay. Pilar: I did like two series in Colombia. There were animated, but I actually cut my teeth on dubbing. Dubbing is a skill like any other, and it requires being a good actor. Anne: Wait, back that truck up again and say that very important, right? When you watch dubbing shows and of course, what is the latest one? When people are talking about the quality of the dubbing, there is something that was recently released, and we don't have to name it, but there was talk about how the dubbing was not great. There was not great actors. So I think acting is so, so important to be a good dubbing actor. Pilar: Well, if you want to see examples of bad dubbing, just go to the Godzilla movies. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: It's hysterical. Anne: You're right. Pilar: Those are so funny to watch. But since Netflix has -- and HBO as well and uh, and Amazon, since they have entered the marketplace, uh, you know, over the past couple of years, and when I started back in two thousand... I guess I started dubbing in 2010, Netflix, wasn't really doing that much. They've been doing more and more in HBO, and Netflix is just all over the place. They have so much content. So one of the things that they look for is, yes, are you a good actor? Because you have to be able to portray what is being said in whatever language it is, whether it's, you know, German or Spanish or Portuguese, you need to be able to portray those same emotions. So it's kind of like, 'cause I used to actually teach dubbing. It's kind of like, you're like a one man band stand. You remember those little, those figures of the monkey where they have -- Anne: Yes, they play the tambourine. They play the drums. Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: All at the same time. Anne: You have to do it all. Pilar: It's kind of like being a drummer because if you look at a drummer, he's got one beat going in one arm, another beat going in the other arm, and he's got two different beats going in his, with his legs. Anne: Yeah. So Pilar, just to back up just a little bit, I want to make sure that, because we are going to talk about both dubbing and ADR, what exactly is dubbing? Let's just clear up the definition. Pilar: Yes. So dubbing is when you have got a telanovela, say, or a movie in Spanish, and they are speaking in Spanish. And they want you to put your voice onto that person's body basically so it sounds -- Anne: In another language. Pilar: In another -- in English, in English. So if it's in Spanish, they want you to dub exactly what they are saying in Spanish into English. Anne: Right. Or vice versa. Pilar: Or vice versa. Anne: Or any other language. Pilar: Or any, 'cause it doesn't matter. I mean, I've dubbed in Chinese, from Chinese to English, German, Swedish. It depends on the project. Anne: Do you dub mostly in English or in Spanish? Or both? Pilar: I actually do both. Yeah. I do both. Yeah. I do more other languages to English because that's what the demand is, but I definitely do a lot of times English to Spanish. Anne: Okay. Pilar: So basically when you walk into the booth, and you are given a movie or an episode that is in whatever language it's going to be, and I will say this, just because I speak Spanish and French, that doesn't necessarily help you when you're dubbing. Sometimes it can actually be a hindrance because you're listening and you're going, wait a minute. They're not saying exactly what they're saying in English, so. Anne: Ah, yeah. There's translation there. Pilar: Yeah. You do not have to know the language that you're dubbing at all for anybody who has that kind of question. Anne: We should clarify too, you said, when you walk into the studio. Now, this is typically done in a studio, right? It's not something that we can do remotely. Pilar: Yeah. I would say when we went through the past two years, and everybody had to go inside, there was obviously, it was only remote. So I did a lot of things remotely, but ideally they want you to be in the same studio because you are recording with the same mic and in the same environment. Anne: Got it. That makes sense. Pilar: And that's when it makes it really, really makes a difference. So a lot of times they would send kits out. Studios would send kits. So everybody would have the same exact setup in their booth. Anne: Got it. And you're talking about the same mic as what was recorded in the movie? Is that what you're talking about? Or -- Pilar: No, no, because this is voiceover. So, you know, whatever, whatever the movie is, you know, they have different mix for that. Although actually -- Anne: That's what I was thinking. Like they wanted to specify what kind of mic was being used. That's what I was. Pilar: Yeah. But that was, you know, more so for, for just voiceover. Anne: Got it. Pilar: So what's ironic is that, you know, the Sennheiser, it was originally a mic used on sets, but generally for dubbing, you know, they have their own extremely high powered mics. I mean, I was in a session the other day, and I was standing very far away from the mic technically 'cause here I'm, you know, I'm standing pretty close to the mic, and that mic picks up everything. I mean that mic picks up a burp. That mic picks up a little breath, and it's, it's just amazing. So yeah, they generally want you to go into the studio, and so you get there, you walk in. And of course now with all the protocols, everything is, you know, sanitized and wiped down. And usually you're asked to bring your own headphones. You go in and you watch a piece of copy, and the dubbing director will explain. And there's also the engineer. Anne: You mean you watch a video? Pilar: Yeah. You watch a piece. Yeah. So you've got the mic in front of you. You've got the video. And so you're seeing it in the original language. So you get to see it -- now, here's the thing. Out here in LA, you actually get a dress rehearsal. The majority, I would say 99% of the time when I lived in Miami, I didn't get a dress rehearsal. It was just like -- Anne: Oh wow, go. That's tough. Pilar: Get out of the stable and go. Yeah. Anne: Because you have to match the lip. Pilar: Right. And you don't know what's coming. So when you're doing a character, but because I was doing so much of it, what I learned to do is after like an episode or two, I would see what that actor's rhythms were. So then I could mimic and kind of go with her breaths and where she did sighs and where she stopped because I was always looking at her lips. But I also -- see, that's the thing. That's why I brought in the analogy of the drummer. So what are you doing when you dub? You are watching the screen. You are acting because you're doing what the other, what that character in front of you is doing. You are voicing, you're reading, and you're adding your own breaths. So you're also usually seeing the -- I mean, at least that, that was the case in Miami, not so much out here, but you're seeing the script for the first time. Anne: Right, right. Pilar: So you're doing all these things. You're employing more than one sense, and you're doing it without a dress rehearsal. Anne: Wow. Pilar: It's kind of intense. Anne: That's a lot. And I remember my class was just like that. I mean, we did not even really know the copy that was coming up when it was coming up. And we had not really, we did not have a dress rehearsal, so it's a lot of things to do at once. And so what are the prerequisites for you as a voice actor that wants to get into dubbing? What sort of things should you do if you want to make this part of your career to get good at it? Pilar: So the most important thing is listening, and observing, and putting yourself into that character's shoes for however long you are in the booth. So I played this character a while back, and it's out on Netflix now. And it's a terror series. It's literally terrifying. I said to my mom, listen, I'm going to give you the times that my character is there because I don't want you to see anything else because it's so terrifying. It's so, so scary. Anne: Oh, I'm gonna assume that you just did this one and that you had a dress rehearsal. So you had an idea of what the whole show was about. Right? And I think that that helps, right? Pilar: Well, rehearsal means you. Yeah. You get to see the scene, but you don't really know what you're getting into because you haven't seen the moments before. You're just looking at when you are speaking as a character. Anne: Got it, got it. Pilar: So it's up to you to -- Anne: Understand the vibe. Pilar: And not just that, but that's what I mean by you really have to be completely on because you are looking and you're listening at the same time. You're evaluating what that character is doing at that moment and why -- Anne: What happened. Pilar: -- are you doing it, right. Anne: And what might've happened beforehand so you can act, right? Pilar: Exactly. Yeah. And then you have to do it and you only get one dress rehearsal. So you have to be very acutely aware. You have to be present in the booth. So what they do is you'll do a scene on, they'll give you a pass of the entire scene and then you'll go back. You'll do another take or you'll do pick-ups. They do give you headphones. But if you have really good headphones, it's great to bring those with you. 'Cause you have to hear every nuance with that character -- where are they breathing? Anne: Now, are they doing sentences at a time? Or just periods of time when this character is talking? Is there back and forth between dialogue from other characters? Pilar: Oh yes, absolutely. Yes. Anne: They will do an entire, let's say three minutes of the characters going back and forth? So you have to also watch the other character and then react. Right? Pilar: Absolutely. Yes, exactly. And so here's the thing. Back in the day, I used to get pieces of paper, and then they switched to the monitor, and now there's this thing, that's, it's a band. And it was, I think it was invented actually in France, if I'm not mistaken. And it's a band that goes at the bottom of your screen, and most of the companies that I've worked for, the studios that I've worked for, they all use this. So it's a band, and it's in your specific color for that episode. So like my character, Anna, Anna's lines are going to be in green. They're going to have the highlight green. But then I'm also listening to the other characters and their lines are there as well. Anne: But not in green, obviously. Pilar: No, they're like in purple or whatever, but I have to be very aware of who's speaking when. Anne: So you have to look at the bottom of the screen, which has the band. Plus you also have to understand where the lips are happening and when they're saying it, so you've got to go, you've got to look from the bottom of the screen to the lips. Pilar: Yes, ma'am. Anne: And so that is fast focusing I'm sure. Pilar: Totally. Anne: And total focus and it's got to be exhausting. I can't imagine like when you're doing a dubbing session, how long are you doing a dubbing session for? An hour, two hours, five hours? Pilar: The standard time is two hours. Anne: Okay. But that has got to be an exhausting two hours sometimes. Pilar: It can be exhausting, but it's really exhilarating because you're in the booth, and I always stand. Anne: I can't imagine sitting when you have to be that focused and on top of things. Pilar: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You have to use the whole body. But I rest, like when they're doing, when they're trying to decide between the dubbing director and the engineer, you know, do we do this? Do we do that? Um, and they're rewinding and they're trying to sync it up and everything. So, so that's when I can just take a little break, drink some water. They tend to be generally two hour sessions. I've done, you know, up to four. You know, it's, it's, it is work. It's a lot of work. Anne: But so now that you have the band that's running on the screen, right, do you have a copy as well of the actual script at all in front of you? Pilar: No, nope. Anne: Because I remember when I took my class, I had both. I had the script that was down in front of me, but I also had to keep my eye on the screen as well and the lips of the actor that I was dubbing. So it was a lot, but when they were doing whatever work they needed to do in the studio, I was kind of looking at the script coming up next so I could get a little familiar with it. Pilar: Yeah. It actually depends on the studio because there was a studio that did the paper. I don't know if they still do because you know, things have evolved in the past couple of years. It kind of depends. But sometimes you do, sometimes you do get a paper, which in a way is actually worse because you have to look farther down. I'd rather have it on the screen. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Pilar: But whatever it is that you're doing, whether you have a piece of paper in your hand, or you're looking at it on a monitor, or you're looking at the stuff on one screen and the script on another screen, 'cause that also happens, whatever it is that you do, you have to learn to read quickly. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: And so you're basically constantly evaluating and looking at getting the information. So then you can spit it out -- Anne: Yeah, right. Pilar: -- and then move on to the next moment that that character has. Anne: So dubbing is going into the studio and having the band and checking the lip movement of the actor that you're replacing, right, that you're dubbing. Now what's looping then. So that's dubbing. What's looping then? Pilar: Looping, technically it's called ADR, which is additional dialogue replacement. Like, so for example, let's say there is a scene where there are two people in a restaurant, and they're outside in a cafe, in a little restaurant cafe in New York. And you know, there are people going back and forth, and there are people walking on the street, and there are people inside. And then there's the person at the bar. All that noise, all that noise gets put in, in post. None of that is real because basically what they figured out, and sometimes you can get it, but there's so much incidental noise. So you're going to get a honking of a horn or somebody shouting that they can't control all those extra elements. So what they do is that they come back, and once the scene is done and it's ready -- or let's say the actress spoke really low. So she was looking at her food saying, "I don't love you anymore." So it's like, they didn't get that. They didn't get that from the mic, the boom that was hanging, you know, five feet above her. So the actors come back. So basically it's like background extra work but for voices. Anne: Is that not also called Walla Walla? Pilar: So Walla Walla is a type of ADR. Walla Walla is kind of like, you're just kinda like talking and it's like -- Anne: So many terms. Pilar: -- rhubarb, peas, and carrots, rhubarb, peas, and carrots. This is what I used to do on stage. You know, when you, when you weren't speaking, but you had to look like you were talking sure. Then there's something called call-outs where you say -- so each character sits there and says, "hey, I'm going to the store. I'll see you later." And so it's like, you're literally having like a pretend conversation. And so ADR has, you know, so many different -- ADR has its own genres too. Anne: So dubbing is not necessarily related to ADR and looping. Pilar: ADR, I would say it's like a, it's like a third cousin, second or third cousin, because there are aspects of it. So for example, I did a movie last year, which came out, I guess it came out at Christmas? It was called "Eternals". It was a Marvel movie. And of course, you know, when you sign up for something like that, you sign NDAs up to an inch of your life, and you can't say anything. And so the only reason I'm saying it is because I asked them -- Anne: Now you can. Pilar: - I asked them, yeah. Now you can, and now it's out. And so, you know, the person who hired me was like, yeah, it's okay. 'Cause I always check. And that's something that's really important. Whatever it is that you're doing, when it's like dubbing or, or ADR, they're going to make you sign NDAs. So in fact, at one studio, they make you put your cell phone in a little box before you walk in and lock it up because they don't want any kind of -- Anne: That makes sense. Pilar: You know, they bought the rights, it's their property. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: And so to have some actors sit there and go, oh, I was at this studio and I was dubbing look at me is just, I mean, come on. You know, you've just ruined all their hard work. So -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- in the world of dubbing, they're very, very demanding on that. You know, you can't say a word. Anne: Well, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm glad that you brought it up because how many times have we seen a voice actor, either bragging on social media, or here's a picture of me leaving and just thinking that nobody will see that, that is a big, big, big no-no. So yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense that you don't want to give away any, any secrets until they're revealed. I get that. Pilar: Because basically when you are an actor, you are lending your voice. That's what you're doing, or you're lending your acting to the project. The project isn't yours. You don't own the project. Anne: It's a great point. Pilar: You know, I remember one time I did this commercial. Magic, the big basketball player, Magic Johnson. I mean, I'm seeing him right now. And all of a sudden I had a brain fart in his name. So it was a commercial and he was, he's so adorable and he's so nice. And so we were all gathered around, and of course at the end they let us take pictures. And so of course I took my picture and I had it in my phone. And then literally a couple of weeks later, I see this actor post and like, "hey yeah, I got, I was, I was," and I was like, what are you doing? The commercial isn't out, that's not yours. That's their material. Somebody owns that material. And you have to respect that this is a situation. So for something like a Marvel movie, you know, you sign NDAs up the wazoo. Anne: Oh yeah, I've seen people get fired. Pilar: Yeah. And -- Anne: Hard. Fired Hard. Pilar: To be honest, I, I can't blame them because it's like, it's, it's not my material to come -- to go out and play with. So with ADR, and this all changed in the pandemic too, because with ADR, what you would do is that you would go with a group of people, and you would be in the same room with them. So that's where you have these things called donuts, which is you walk around and you do these sort of loops. And you talk as you pass by the microphone. And then the call-outs where you're "hey, let's go get some ice cream" kind of a thing. And "Dr. George Michael to line one in, you know, room 222," that kind of a thing. So that all went away. And so now when you go to a studio, we were all separated. So we were in the same studio, but we were all in different booths. So that's the difference. So it's all, you're not together. Anne: Right, during the pandemic. Pilar: Right during, yeah, exactly. Pilar: So they had to kind of change that the way that, that happens. Anne: Also, so not just that, there's also, if you need to replace a line, right. If they couldn't get the actor, if they couldn't get the line or they changed the line, and they could get the actor back in, sometimes there's just a line replacement. Pilar: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And that will happen, let's say, with a specific actor, but when you're talking about ADR, like when you're in that scenario that I said about the coffee shop, there are people talking. So you need to have, let's say, if you're doing a cop show, you need to have the lingo all ready to go, you know, and they encourage you to bring -- paper makes noise, but like iPads. And then you have your "Adam 24," you know, that kind of a thing or "nurse code blue," you know? So all the different genres have different language. So you have that ready. And then when you're called on, because you're just basically, it's like, okay, who wants to do this? And you just get up and you do it, and you do it in front of your mic. I don't know if it's gone back to the grouping. 'Cause I, I did something recently, and we were still in separate booths. So I don't know if that's actually gone to the group thing again, but ADR basically takes care of all that sort of subtle murmuring that goes on. And so whatever it is that you do -- and there's, there are a lot of rules. Like, you know, you never want to say, have anything to do with God. There's a lot of, since it is all improv, because you know, it is, you know, as we had mentioned before about, you want to be positive, that's another thing. That's another big thing; you want to be positive. You don't want to be negative. So there are, there are a couple of different rules you don't necessarily want to talk about the time of day. You don't want to say people's names or the actor or the characters' names in the movie itself. Anne: That makes sense. Pilar: So you're constantly improvising. And so flexibility is key in ADR. So you can just get up and, you know, in front of the mic and talk about this car that overturned in a tractor trailer and this and that. And you just, and you know, you have a little cheat sheet, so you have little sentences or, or themes that you can expound upon. Anne: So they give that to you. And you're just improv-ing off of that. Pilar: They give you the, the scene, but it's up to you to come up with the lines. It's like, they don't, they don't give you the lines. So I took a class, my very first ADR class when I got to LA was with Johnny Gidcomb. So, you know, for anybody out there who wants to do ADR, he's fantastic. And he teaches you the ropes. So we did as if we were blooping this one show that he had done, one of the many "Planet of the Apes" movies. And so, you know, we had to sit there and see, and it was sometimes it was difficult because you didn't know who was speaking. So you had to be, you know, eagle eye on these characters saying who was speaking when and, who was loud and who wasn't. So it's like a lot of, you know, observation comes in to play when you're doing ADR as well. Anne: And then if that's not enough, so there's the dubbing, there's the ADR and looping and Walla Walla. And then we also have audio description. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Audio description is something that's similar, but yet different. And that's also kind of, I feel like because there's more content out there, there's been a lot of work in this area as well with audio description. And there's just some really great instructors out there. I had Roy Samuelson is part of one of my meetups who came and talked about audio description. And there's some great groups out there that you can get involved in and learn from and lots of work out there. So let's talk about audio description now. Pilar: Yes. Let's talk about it because I will be honest with you. I am not that familiar with it. I know that it, audio description can be used for people who have trouble seeing, that that's a lot of it, but it does have many uses, correct? Anne: Yes, exactly. So audio description will be describing the scene. It kind of happens along with the dialogue, and that is something that will be describing the scene as it's happening. And so that is copy that is provided to you, but you know, it is a skill, and it is something that I think you have to be quick on your feet in order to do it well. And I think you also have to add in acting because you are really, for people who are not necessarily seeing the video in front of them, you are audibly describing what's happening in the scene, and you can't just be a robot doing that. I feel like you've got to bring the experience to the listener. And so there is definitely quality of acting for audio description as well. For sure, for sure. Pilar: Yes. And I'm looking at this. Yeah. And it is definitely for people who have low vision or who are visually impaired. So you definitely have to have acting chops because you are, you are the narrator for these people who can't see. So you are providing everything, you're being their eyes. Anne: It's like audio drama in a way. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: But you don't want to be overly, right, dramatic because -- Pilar: Yeah. Not emoting, right, either. Anne: Right. Exactly. Because obviously you're not overtaking the acting that's going on that they're listening to. You are simply describing the scenes and what's happening. So while you need to act, you may not need to act as if you are a direct character in the scene. That's for sure. Pilar: Well, and also because in -- when there are gaps in the dialogue, you will be describing visual elements. So you're going to be describing costumes, the action, the setting, the mountain in the background. And so you have to make that interesting, but you're not going to make it monotone picture. And you're also not going to go crazy talking about the mountain. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: You know, so exactly it has to sacrifice to be some kind of middle ground. So you're making it because you are the eyes for that person. So you have to be able to transmit the emotions that are going on. Anne: Yeah. So I'll tell you, all of these things that we have been talking about today really require someone who has acting experience, right, or who is an actor. And I love that because that just really broadens the scope of what we can do as voiceover artists. And it really pinpoints the importance in everything that we do, that acting is a part of it. And so there's a lot of areas in which as a performer, if you want to improve and up your game, you can have these opportunities if you just keep developing those acting skills and improv skills. And I just love that we're talking about where all these skills, we just had our episode on improv, you know, how they can help you to really grow your business as a voiceover artist. So thanks so much, Pilar, for chatting with me about this. I love you've just brought so much to the table for our listeners. So thank you for that. Pilar: No, thank you. This was so much fun. Anne: Awesome. Well, I'm going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and perform like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys have an amazing week and Pilar and I will see you next week. Pilar: Ciao. Anne: All right, bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Acting is more than just using your voice. It requires whole body movement, agility, and engagement. In this episode, Anne & Pilar share their favorite stretches, exercises, and warmups that can be done in and out of the booth. From Pilar's jaw release warmup to Anne's neck stretch, by the end of this episode you'll be warmed up + ready to perform like a #VOBOSS. More at https://voboss.com/move-in-the-booth Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast, con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza. And I am so excited to bring back to my booth, my special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar, how are you? Pilar: Hello, Anne. Anne: Look, I feel I'm very spry. I'm very spry today in the booth. And you know why? Do you know I'm spry? Pilar: Why are you spry? Why are you spry? Why are you spry, Anne? Anne: Because I did a little warmup, so I'm kind of feeling good in the booth. And I think it's important that we always do awesome warmups and move around in the booth so we can have good energy going forth into our voiceover. Pilar: I totally agree. Anne: Thoughts? Pilar: That that is something that I, something that I just did. Do as I say, not as I do. Try not to do what I just did, honestly. VO BOSSes -- Anne: Drink dairy? Pilar: Because, well, that's one thing. Yes, of course. I had dairy. I had yogurt this morning, so of course I'm all phlegmy. Anne: Me too. Pilar: That's not, that's not fun, especially when you're going to do an audition. That's not great. So drink your water. But one of the things that I was told by a professional is it's really bad to clear your throat. You know, like when people [clear throat noise], that is like the worst thing you can do. Drink water, wait till it passes, stop doing that. But that's literally like putting sandpaper on your throat. It's the worst thing you can do. Anne: Yes, I have heard the same, and it's very hard because I think it's like a habit from before voiceover. That would be BF -- BFO, before voiceover, before voiceover, when I used to scream and do all sorts of harmful things to my vocal cords, before I realized that we need to treat this like gold, because it is our livelihood. Pilar: Okay. I have one question though. Did you say BFO? Anne: Did I say BF -- Pilar: You meant BVO, BVO. Anne: BVO, okay, okay. I was thinking like best friend in VO. So I kind of combined -- Pilar: Anne, Anne -- Anne: Pilar, that's how I think of you. Pilar: Anne, will you be my BFO? Anne: My BFO. there's -- Pilar: Will you be my BFO? Anne: -- best friend, best friend in VO. So hey -- Pilar: I love it. Anne: So being best friends, I think I want all of our BOSS listenership -- they're our friends. And I think it would be a really great episode if we talked about how moving in the booth and how warming up and just physicality in the booth can really help us to perform better and just be better all around, better mental, spiritual, physical to improve our performances. Pilar: Okay. So since we are starting our day, Anne, I invite you to do something with me. Anne: Okay. All right. Pilar: We're going to do it all together. Anne: What is this, a warmup? Pilar: This is a warmup exercise. It's a jaw release. Anne: Oh yes. Pilar: Which we don't even realize half the time how much tension we're carrying in our jaw. Anne: You know what's so funny, that I actually really need this because the other day, I woke up, and my ear was hurting, but it wasn't like an earache kind of hurt. It was an ear hurting because I might've clenched my jaw at night. And I, I know so many people that clench their jaws at night, and anything to relieve this ache in my jaw will be very helpful. Yes. Pilar: Okay. Cool. Anne: I'm ready. Pilar: All right. So I want you to place your palms on the sides of your face. Okay? I'll hold it on my headphones. You can still hear me, right? Okay. So you're going to place your palms on the side of your face and slowly massage the jaw and the cheek muscles. Okay. So you're taking the palm, and you're massaging the jaw line up and down the jaw line and also your cheekbones and, and with small circular motions. Anne: Good for when you have sinus issues too. Pilar: Yes. Anne: Or you feel it. Can you hear me going, can you hear it? Like, I'm very close to the mic. I am in circular motions. Pilar: So you can, you can go all the way up to where your cheekbone is and massage there, and you can go all the way towards the ear. Anne: Okay, BOSSes, you're doing this, I hope you're doing this with us, BOSSes. Pilar: Absolutely. Just try it. And then you go all the way down to your jaw line and go way up almost to your, your ear, almost to the ear. So continue to massage while lowering and raising your jaw. Now -- Anne: You're lowering and raising the jaw while you're doing this. Pilar: Yeah, so you're going, ahhh, in the jaw. Anne: Are we saying anything when we're doing? Pilar: No, not yet. Not yet. Just lower and raise your jaw. I can't speak right now. Anne: But you're my -- you're instructing us, so. Pilar: I am instructing you. Okay. Now -- Anne: I don't know if you can do it while you're instructing. Pilar: I will. You're going to hear it in a minute. So now keep lowering and raising your jaw while you're massaging. And now you're going to add the sound ma ma ma with a very light lip contact. So it's not, mmm. It's just a light lip contact for the mic. Anne: Now what is ] that doing? Pilar: And then you're going to change to whoa, whoa, Anne: Wait. I'm still massaging, right? Pilar: Yeah. You're still massaging, and you're changing from ma ma to wa wa. Anne: Oh, I can feel the vibration. Pilar: VO BOSSes, if you're doing this, you're hearing the resonance. That's really important because that means that you're using all those muscles. Anne: That's awesome. Pilar: We tend to think that we're just using the vocal box and that's it. And sometimes we can hear the chest. Anne: No, it's our entire it's like facial jaw. Pilar: Exactly. It's that whole, and it goes up practically -- it's like, like you're using all those muscles and all that movement there, and that will help your sound as it comes out. Anne: Love it. Pilar: So do you wanna try another one? Anne: Yeah, let's try another one. Let's try another one. Pilar: It's a lip trill. Okay. So this releases lip tension, which we tend to do and we don't even realize it. And it also helps you to connect your breathing and speaking. So place your lips loosely together. Okay? And you're going to release air in a steady stream to create a trill or a raspberry kind of a sound. So it's like [whistle-like breathing] Anne: That's a raspberry sound? Pilar: I'm not really sure what a raspberry sound is. Anne: [lip trill] Isn't that what it is, the trill? Pilar: But that's what I say -- yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can also do this. [whistle breathing] What is a raspberry sound? That is a raspberry sound, but it's like, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get the sound out without moving my lips, which is really cool. Hold on. [lip buzzing] That's a raspberry sound. That's a raspberry. [lip buzzing] So first try. So our microphone is getting a lot of action here. First, try it with an H sound. Then try it with a B sound. Anne: Oh my God, that tickles. Pilar: Yeah, it does, it tickles, right? Anne: I can not, I can not do it. It's like when the dentist does the teeth cleaning, the polishing, and it gets on my lip, it just, I can't. It makes me tear up. Pilar: So first try it with an H sound and then repeat with a B sound. Okay? And then [sound]. And it seems like it wouldn't be, but it is different. It's a different feeling. So now I want you to try doing the B trill. It can be either [lip trill] or it can be [lip buzz] and go up and down the scales. Okay? And whatever's comfortable. You don't have to go all the way -- whatever's comfortable at the top or the bottom. Anne: I really think for the trill, you have to let your lips just trill like that. Pilar: Because there's two ways to do it. There's [one way] which is more the H sound. And then there's the [lip trill]. Anne: That's easy. Okay. My lips are relaxed now. Pilar: Yeah. Don't they feel kind of like, they feel like you can kind of feel the reverberations. Anne: Well, once the tickle goes away, I'll, yeah. I'm not sure I can do this everyday 'cause it just tickles. I wonder if I'll get used to it. Pilar: Yeah. And there's more, there, there are other things, there's tongue trills. There's lip buzzing. We kind of did the lip buzzing, and here's one thing that's really important: humming. You can do this anywhere. You can do this while you're walking. Humming is really great. So [hums]. Anne: Oh yes. Pilar: So if you do humming and you concentrate, you will feel it in different parts of your face. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Pilar: You will, you'll be able to feel it in your teeth, in your lips, and in your facial bones. So let's just try that really quickly. Just the humming. Anne: BOSSes are humming. Pilar: And if you go low, It's a different feeling from when you go high. And in your nose, if you concentrate on feeling it in your nose, you're going to feel all this vibration. Anne: Yep. I feel it my nose. And I think if you visualize where it's coming from, that helps, that helps. Now this is doing some vocal lip, trills, and hums. Now I also think any exercise around your head, neck, muscles, shoulders is very helpful in the booth. So I feel like I do a lot of the neck stretches where you take your right hand, place it on your left ear and tilt your head to the side. Right? So right hand -- Pilar: Hold on, right hand, left ear. Anne: Right-hand, left ear. Pilar: Is your hand over your head or is it under? Anne: It's over my head, over my head. And so as you breathe in through your nose for three seconds, then exhale, pull your head more to the right. Breathe in for three seconds. Hold it. And as you exhale, stretch your neck further towards your right shoulder. Breathe in for three and then exhale and stretch even further to your shoulder. And then you basically take your head and do on the other side. So take your left hand, put your left hand over your right ear. Pilar: I was doing it, I was doing it the wrong way at first. I'm like, she's crazy. And then I realized I was doing it wrong. Anne: Yeah. Breathe in through your nose. And then when you exhale, bring that head down towards your shoulder, toward the left shoulder. Exactly. Then breathe in again. And then as you exhale, bring it further towards your left shoulder. So you're stretching that neck. Pilar: Oh, that feels good. Oh yeah, you can feel it. Anne: Yeah. And then you can do that also forward. So take your hand, your right hand, put it on the top of your head, and breathe in for three through your nose and then exhale and then pull your head down to your chest. So chin to your chest. Pilar: Oh my God. I can feel it all up and down the back of my neck. Anne: So yeah, those muscles around your neck, when you warm them up, right, your vocal cords are right there. So it's super that that's warmed up as well. And in addition to the physical, like, and I also do head rolls, right? So from left to right, roll your head around the back 'til it reaches your right shoulder and then back again towards your left, and that will help you to relax those muscles around your vocal cords. Pilar: Okay. Very important. Yeah. And one other that I will suggest is interlocking your hands in front of you and then twisting them and pushing your palms out. Anne: Oh, forward, yeah. Pilar: Forward. So you're stretching those, those shoulders. Anne: Shoulder muscles. Yeah. Pilar: And then you can bring them up and, and then, and you can actually pull your left -- Anne: Over your head, right? Pilar: Over your head and then pull your left wrist with your right hand and then go to the right. Oh. And you can feel all up and down the arm. Anne: And so you're stretching to the left. So you're doing that -- Pilar: Your side. Anne: Yeah. You're doing a side stretch. Pilar: You're doing a side stretch. Right. And you're doing, yeah. And then you go to the other side. You can feel all the way up and down the side of your body. Because when you're in the booth, you're using everything. I know that a lot of people sit in terms of moving in the booth. That's an important part of this. People ask me all the time, do you sit or do you stand? And it's like, I do both. It depends on the read. However, whatever it is that you do, make sure you don't -- if you're standing for a very long time, make sure you have a chair that you can sit. And if you're sitting for a long time, make sure you get up, move around, touch your toes, raise your arms up, you know, lift your knees a little bit, because sitting or standing in the same position for a very long time will lead you to feeling tension and -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: And so, you know, it's like, you want to be flexible. You want to be easy. Anne: So we've warmed up, and we're moving in the booth as we sit. And literally this takes a few minutes. You don't even have to spend an hour doing this, but every little bit helps. And I think that not only just warming up in the booth by moving around, 'cause now I'm like, wow, I've got some heat going on in this booth. Maybe you do it outside the booth if you don't have any ventilation, but wherever you do the, the exercises and the movement, the lip trills, and the head rolls, and the neck rolls, and all of the side stretches, that's wonderful before you get into do your auditioning for the day. And once you're there too, you can physicate while you're performing your script. And that actually is something that I tell my students every single day, get physical behind the mic. Because number one, it helps you be much more believable because it's taking away all of that energy that you focus specifically just on the words coming out of your mouth. And a lot of times that doesn't make things realistic because if all you're moving is your mouth and your vocal cords, things become very consistent, right? There's no other energy coming out of you to kind of move or shape a rhythm. That would be something that we do when we're talking to one another, right? When we talk to one another or we converse or we're interacting with other people, which is kind of what you're doing with your audience behind the mic, right, you're interacting with people, you're moving your arms. You're moving your body. You have facial expressions. There's all of this movement happening behind the mic or behind your voice. And that helps us to sound the way that we do. I mean, it, it has every bit of influence on how we sound. So if I'm just standing or sitting or standing here and I'm just here, I'm just moving my mouth and that's what I'm doing, you can notice that I sound a little bit more staccato. I don't really have a lot of, I don't know, depth or feeling. Right? So now I'm just going to like, I'm going to move stuff around. I'm going to move my hands because I really love to move around because that's what I do when I talk to people, like that's that Ganguzza, you know, moving the hands around and, and all of the expression. And if I want to really convince you of something, you can tell, you can hear it. Right? You can hear it come out in my voice. What do you do, Pilar? Pilar: I'm all about, of course, I want to use my imagination all the time. But for example, even something as simple as a raising an eyebrow, like, I'll, I'll be like, oh yeah, right. Instead of saying, oh yeah, right. But if I raise my eyebrow, I've already changed the expression. Oh yeah. Right. And it can be an ironic raising of an eyebrow. Anne: I'm confused. There's my furrowed eyebrow. Confused eyebrow. I have a confused eyebrow. Pilar: Or it could be like, I'm confused. That's like an ironic raising of an eyebrow. I'm confused. Anne: No, you're not. That's a sarcastic eyebrow. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: That would be a sarcastic eyebrow. Pilar: Right, right. It's a sarcastic eyebrow. Anne: Eyebrows, they really help. Pilar: They really do. They really do. Anne: They really help to give you that point of view, to give you that little bit of nuanced emotion about that read, and I'll tell you over and over again, that's what we keep hearing. Right? It is that kind of emotion, that point of view that, the you that you bring to the script that helps you to bring yourself to the script. Otherwise we're just spewing words into the microphone. Pilar: Exactly. Anne: We don't want to spew words. Let's not spew. Pilar: Like an inward chuckle, like -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: You know, just the shrugging of the shoulders that we, that you know, that you mentioned in your minute. And like, for example, when you, when you say your name, you can say your name, Pilar Uribe, or you can say Pilar Uribe. So I just shrugged my shoulders Pilar Uribe. Anne: Pilar! Or Pilar Uribe. Pi-lar. Pilar: Yeah. And so we have this whole stretch of body, which is our shoulders that we can do so much. We can shrug one shoulder. We can shrug to shoulders. We can shrug kind of just like a little kind of a yeah, right. We're just kind of like a little inward chuckle. I just raised my shoulder. So you've got all these parts of your body that you can use that can help you when you're doing a read. Like right now I'm using my hands. You know, what you were saying before, I can be pointing to somebody. I can be gesticulating. I can be raising my arms. You know, another one we were talking about earlier is just when you do a read and you put your hands behind your back. There's kind of like -- Anne: Yeah. Yeah, here I am. Pilar: Hands behind your back. Anne: Or hands behind your head, right? So you're just, you're casual. If you happen to be standing or sitting, and you want to relax a little bit -- because sometimes when people are trying hard to sound a particular way, their focus is all upfront and it's all here, like in their mouth and in their, like, I feel like it's all around their face. And when you are moving your hands, moving other parts of your body, it just dissipates that energy and really reshapes the tone of what you sound like. Because we're very physical people when we talk, I think, just to each other, when we engage with one another, we're using those hands. And so why should that stop once we're in the booth, right? Because we want it. We're still engaging with our audience. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. And it's something as simple as putting your arms on your shoulders if you're playing a character, that's in a protective stance or is scared and it's like, this is the way I am now. Or if you've got your hands on the side of your waist, and you're just speaking like this, and you're sticking your chest out, that's a completely different read because you've put something in front of it instead of just speaking here and being really intense. It's almost like you have to trick your mind and you have to give your body an assignment. And then that way, when you give your body an assignment, the tension kind of dissipates as we were talking about. And then you can give a more interesting read and then that's what stops the monotony. You know, even just when you're like, when you're doing long-form, just changing your body stance because it's very hard sometimes to keep the momentum and not be boring. Anne: Well, exactly. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Because a lot of times I work with a lot of students on, on long format narration like e-learning or corporate narration, something that, anything that's longer than even like 30 seconds, right? We have such small attention spans these days. And so you need to really be conscious and focused on keeping that audience engaged for longer than a minute, in between the periods, in between the sentences, right? There's still things happening. And if you kind of forget about that scene and engaging with the person who's listening, then it becomes a monologue. It just becomes you speaking out into the air. A lot of times I'll refer to you're reading the PowerPoint, and that does not engage with us because you're no longer speaking to me, the listener behind the mic, you're speaking off into the air, and it's only serving yourself. And that, that comes out in the read, that comes out in the emotion that -- well, are you really talking to me? Are you concerned about how I feel? Not really, because you're reading that PowerPoint. And when you introduce physicality behind the mic, what happens, it will take the focus off of the monologue and bring it back hopefully to where you're engaging or you're not giving a consistent metronome-like read where we all become bored. It becomes more engaged on you. So I would think the only thing that you don't do when you are physicating behind the mic is take your eyes off the page because that's the one thing that's different, right? Unless you're an actor and you're on stage and you've memorized your lines or on camera, then you can obviously not use the piece of paper, but with us, we're not memorizing. So if we play the paper -- I was told that a long time ago, play the paper. So the person you're talking to is the person right behind the words on the paper. So if that paper became a transparency for us people who are of a certain age and know what a transparency is, you can see a face or think of it as like a teleprompter with you. You can see faces behind it. You're talking to the people behind it, but you are never taking your eyes off that word or the words, because a lot of times, if you do, and I know with my actor students, I know exactly when they're taking their eyes off the paper, because they're missing words. They're stumbling and that's, that's a telltale sign, but play the paper and physicate like crazy. And nobody's, I mean, we can all be silly, right? I mean, nobody's watching you. I mean, maybe they are. Pilar: Obviously, as long as you don't make noise, there are things that you can do. Like, for example, this is just something that I've done. And then I was thinking, how could it translate to a man? So sometimes what I'll do is I've got my hair up in a ponytail, and I'll just kind of whip my hair out. And just the movement of my head, you know, like a slow motion, like, you know, those hair commercials when they move their hair slowly, that'll give me a different reason. Anne: I've got a visual now. The brat girl, she's like the brat girl. Pilar: Exactly, exactly. So that'll give me a different read. And so for men, you know, if you have short hair, it's harder, but like just even putting a hat on and taking the hat off, just like the slow motion of it. Because a lot of the times when we're doing reads, you know, we want to get it done -- Anne: Yes, quickly. Pilar: -- or not that we want to get it done quickly, but we want to get it over with, and it's in that moment, it's in that present moment that it's so important to be feeling, yes, you're reading, but you can also be doing other things with your arms, and your shoulders, and your head, and just give it that full body because that will -- even though we think it doesn't, it's going to come out in the read. Anne: I like the full body. Yeah. And I'm glad that you said that because I tell people when they're making movements behind the mic, right, in order to make a point, sometimes it takes more of an effort. Like, 'cause I could just sit here, like here I am behind the mic, and I want to demonstrate a large circle. Right? So I use my hands and I draw a circle with my hand, right? So I say here's a large circle, but I didn't really draw a large circle. I just drew a circle in front of me. What I want to do is I want to draw a large circle. And so if you can hear what just happened is I actually drew a larger circle, and it just kind of drew my voice into a different sound and a different tone. And you may not want to go that large, but a lot of times you have to go a little bit larger than the immediate inch or two in front of your face. Pilar: If you're doing video games, you definitely have to go larger. Anne: Even narration. As a matter of fact, narration, because God, you've got to make sure that those nuances come out. They may not be grand emotions, but they're going to be -- I really want you to listen to this next line. It's really important. And let me talk about the circumference of this large circle over here. And so, as opposed to let me talk about the circumference of this large circle over here, right? There's a big difference when I don't move versus when I do move. And so you need to make that corresponding physical movement that gives it enough point of view, enough emphasis enough passion, whatever that is. I just -- see, I got so passionate. I plosived on my mic. I heard that. And so, or I might've hit the mic with my hand, but you've got to give that performance behind the mic that allows you to express something that people are listening to because remember you're reeling them back into the story because they don't have to listen to you. If you're in front of someone and you're actually engaging with them, right, they're physically in front of you. And so you've got your body that you can use to help like control the conversation. Maybe not control, but use your body and your face and your hands and your voice to keep people engaged. But behind the mic, it's an imaginary audience that we're playing to, so. Pilar: Well, and I think it's really important because along the lines of what you just said, what are we doing as voice actors? Whether we're doing long-form or we're doing an audition, our goal is not to get the words out or not to say the words in the pretty way. Just like in a conversation, you are engaging the person who's in front of you. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: That's the whole point of it. You're doing it for the other person. You're not doing it for yourself. Anne: Right. Pilar: So in that sense, you have to be as if that person were right there in the booth with you. So you have to engage, and whatever it is, you can be physical about it. And the great thing about being in the booth is that nobody has to see you making these silly faces. You know, so if you're doing your exercises, you know, and it's like -- Anne: It's so true. Pilar: -- you're going by them as -- this is a great exercise -- my name is -- and so you open your mouth wide and you go "my name is Tommy, the wide-mouthed frog." And that -- Anne: Tommy, okay, Tommy. Pilar: "My name is -- hi! I'm Tommy!" And you just opened your mouth so much. And then when you go to do the normal stuff -- Anne: Yeah. Pilar: -- also those kinds of silly exercises, you know, the big black bug -- Anne: Break the tension. Pilar: Yep. Yeah. And then they bring you to another space if you're stuck and you're going, my gosh, this sounds the same. What am I going to do? You know, it's like, you turn yourself around, and then boom, you're in a different space and you can continue. Anne: Yep. So you didn't think that voiceover was so physical, did you, BOSSes? Because it is, it really is. Whether we're warming up our vocal cords, whether we're warming up our muscles around the vocal cords, or whether we're performing in the booth and expressing physicality behind the mic, it is extra, extra, super, uber important. Pilar: Agreed. Anne: Then it really can help your performance. Pilar: It's a lifelong thing. Anne: That's right, that's right. Pilar: Really and truly, if you're a voice actor and you're just starting out or you've been doing it for 20 years or you've been doing it for five, you can always pick up new tips and incorporate them. And that's going to make your voiceover time in the booth that much richer. Anne: Yeah. Great stuff today, Pilar. You guys, you BOSSes, get moving in the booth. Big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL, where we can connect and move in the booth with our colleagues and clients. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and keep on moving. We'll see you next week. Pilar: See you next week. Anne: Bye! Pilar: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

A peaceful life is one where your work and personal lives are balanced yet separate…but how does that translate to finances? Anne & Pilar have done it all: from TurboTax and nerve-wrecking audits to having an accountant on retainer. There is no one-size fits all plan for business finances, but keeping things organized + separated is a good start. Be ready to evolve your strategy as your business does and tackle tax season like a #VOBOSS! More at https://voboss.com/tax-season Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm excited to welcome back to the podcast very special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar: Hi, Anne. Anne: Pilar, Pilar, I, ugh, it's that time again. Pilar: It's tax time. Anne: Pilar, I think this might be the time of year where every voiceover artist entrepreneur says, oh, 'cause we got to start the process or at least forms are coming in. We're gathering receipts. We're doing all of that good stuff to prepare for the tax season. Pilar: It's a communal flip-out. Anne: Yes, it is. Pilar: It's a hootenanny of flipping out. Anne: It is. And it's always like, oh God, I don't want to, oh. Or I want to just get a nice refund. And it's been kind of crazy with the extension last year with the pandemic and things got all out of whack, but I'll tell you, I've got a few things that I've learned along the way that may help BOSSes out there. And I'm sure you do, Pilar, may help you guys when it comes time to getting ready for tax season. Pilar: You know, I think the most important thing, Anne, is to start looking at what you've spent, how you've spent it, how you've earned it. And you know, there are people who are listening to this podcast who are going to say, oh yeah, I've got it all together. And then there are people who are just beginning their career. And so for those VO BOSSes, whatever stage you're in, it's really important to, to start it. And it doesn't matter if you don't have it all together because every single person started out not knowing what they were doing. Anne: But, but I will tell you what helped me immensely right away for my business, whether I was part-time or full-time. 'Cause I started and I did a couple of years part-time before I went full time, was getting a separate bank account, a business bank account, so that I could separate the monies that I was using for my business in and out. So that was the single most important thing I think I started, I mean, outside of researching, do I create an LLC? Do I create -- I actually started as a DBA. Do I create an LLC? Do I have an S Corp? And I think for everyone that is just starting, that's something that you want to research. You may not need to start an LLC right away, whatever it takes. I guess it depends on -- it does depend on the state. I only required a DBA when I first started. So that's what I did. And I followed the rules and did what I needed to do. Got my DBA, and made sure I had a separate bank account so that I could account for all the money coming in and flowing out as well. Pilar: Yeah. I completely agree with that statement. So here's something that I did. So all you VO BOSSes listening out there can do the opposite. I did actually, because my bank gave me that option. I had my regular checking account and my business checking account. Anne: And you didn't have to have a DBA or a -- Pilar: No. Anne: -- something that proved your business? Pilar: No. This was when I first got to Miami after Colombia, and it was, um, Wachovia, which is now Wells Fargo, but they, they just offered that and I was like, sure, I'll take it. So it was two, two different savings accounts, two different checking accounts. But here's what I didn't do. So I really wanted to get my frequent flyer miles. So I thought I'm just going to use my regular credit card for everything. Big mistake, big mistake. So I, and I didn't do it until relatively recently that I got a separate credit card for my business. So nothing that I put on my business has anything to do with my private life and what I do when I'm buying groceries or whatever has nothing to do with what I put on the expense credit card. And that is so important because what ends up happening is if you say, oh yeah, I can just put everything on one credit card and then I'll divvy it up at the end of the year, like right now, then you're just basically pouring over and over through all your statements and it becomes a nightmare. Anne: Well, that's just as bad as not having a business bank account. Pilar: Yes. I agree. Anne: And it could be worse because you tend to spend more on that credit card. Yeah. A business credit card is, I absolutely agree, one of the best things that I ever got, and you know what, I limited it to one. I actually went with American Express, and most, most places take American Express. So if I'm going to buy equipment or I'm going to make an investment, buy office supplies, whatever it is, office supplies, nice mics by the way. Those are the office supplies, Hey, a new studio, nice. Everything went on that business credit card. And it was so easy to categorize, because a lot of times they do that for you. And the other single most important thing I did, and I say this constantly, so if you guys have listened to at least one VO BOSS episode, you probably know that the accountant was the best thing I ever did. I have her on retainer. So every month she balances my accounts. She's very familiar with my company's spending and ins and outs. And we meet every other, once every three weeks or so to go over things. And she keeps my books up to date and that makes tax season super simple. Pilar: Right. Instead of a huge headache where your, like, heart is palpitating every day -- Anne: But I have had that happen. Pilar: -- which is what used to happen to me. Anne: I have had -- Pilar: Oh, I had that for years. Yeah. Anne: And it was one of those things back -- remember when there was paper with paper receipts. I mean, I'm kind of happy now that things are electronic and at least digital, because it's easy to go recover those receipts because remember when you would put those receipts in the box, and they would be those thermal paper receipts. And so at the end of the day, they would all like wear off and you're like, what did I even buy? What is that number? What does that say? So. Pilar: What a nightmare. What a nightmare. Yeah. Or you write something in pencil, remember the days of pencil, and then you can't read your writing for crying out loud. Anne: Yeah. Yeah, so I would say first tax tip is figure out what your business is. And I always say if after you make a certain amount of money, yes, you need to like incorporate. You need to look at options for your business. But I was a DBA for quite a number of years, actually, Pilar. And it served me fine. I didn't have to pay a ton of money, and up to a certain amount, if you're not making over a certain amount of money, it worked really well for me. I did have to start prepaying taxes. But again, that helps when you have an accountant on your side, that's helping you do your books every month. And once I started making more money, I had to start making prepayments. And so I kind of evolved over the years. And then most recently I think you and I were discussing, and we can talk in a minute about that, I'm now an S-corp. So I pay myself and that becomes a little more complex. Pilar: Yes. Agreed. Now, just for those of you who may not know what a DBA is -- Anne: Oh yes. Pilar: -- what it means is "doing business as," so it is actually your registered, you register your name, your business name with whatever state you are living in, and you become like your own organization. So it, it actually, it really depends on the state that you're in because every state works differently. And so you create this entity, so you can have a way of collecting checks and payments. And then when people come to your business, you can give them that name, whatever it is. And that is your business name. You're not just Anne Ganguzza. You are Anne Ganguzza, a company. Anne: Yep. Anne Ganguzza is a company name, like Voice Productions. And so a lot of times that does a lot for indicating to your clients that you are truly a professional, and you're not just a hobbyist here. Pilar: Yeah. It's the official, it's official, it's an official registration of your business name. And that's really important when you're doing business and you're not just saying, oh yeah, well, yeah, it's like $.25 a word. And here -- you have to be able to present yourself as a business because we are a business first and foremost. Anne: And at the end of the year, right, or when you have to provide w nine forms for people, you can use an EIN number instead of your Social Security number, which is a big advantage. So that EIN number is your federally assigned employer identification, if I remember correctly. Pilar: Employer Identification Number, yes. Anne: Employer Identification Number. So you don't have to share your Social Security with every Joe that you work for. Pilar: Tom, Dick, and Harry. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Pilar: Yeah. And that's also, that makes a big, huge difference further on down the line. Because I became an S Corp as well recently, just very recently, and this has taken me years and years to understand. Anne: Did you get help from a lawyer or an accountant or? Pilar: I got help from an accountant. My accountant is my go-to person. I have a relative, who's also a tax lawyer. So that helps. But really, and truly it's, it's so important. And what you say, what you were saying gives me a great idea too, is to really have a close relationship with your accountant. I don't have her on retainer, but that's a really good idea. I call her for anytime I have to sign a paper that my agents send me. I always call and I check with her first. So we know what it is that I'm getting into because there are lots of things I don't understand. I mean, before, when I said, yes, you are first and foremost a business, we are voice actors, but that is our business. So we have to be able to do both. We have to study the craft, which is what we were talking about, you know, over the past couple of weeks. But we also have to know how to conduct ourselves in a business-like manner. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: And that means knowing what you spend, how you spend it, having a competent CPA who will be able to help you and go over things with you. So for example, one of the things that I didn't know was that there are a lot of expenses that we have that we can deduct. Anne: Yes. Pilar: But you have to know which are the ones that you can deduct. You can't just deduct everything willy-nilly. That's what you check with your accountant for. And so my accountant every year gives me an organizer, and it's really helpful because it just, there are categories of expenses that I can look at that I may not even have realized that I can deduct. Anne: Does this change yearly? Do you get a new one every year? So -- Pilar: I do. Anne: Because the tax laws change every year. So my accountant has to stay up to date. And of course that's why I pay her. So she knows the latest. How much can I donate every year? How much can I deduct for this? How much can I deduct for that? And is this a deduction really? And so the cool thing about having one on retainer, and it's not as expensive as you might think, because she just, she's very good at it. And she does it. She just does it for a set number of clients. I'm not that complicated in reality. My business is not that -- it's not like I have retail that I'm shipping out every day and I've got all sorts of vendors that I'm purchasing from. Literally it is essentially my expense is buying equipment and things for the office and things for my business and literally people paying me. And that is a simpler business than let's say a corporation that has employees and all that sort of thing and health benefits. And so for her to manage my account, it's fairly, for what she does, inexpensive. And the nice thing about it is that because she manages it monthly, by the time tax season rolls around, usually most accountants are crazy busy. And I remember like panicking because before I had hired her on a monthly retainer, it was the end of the year, and I was scrambling, right? Oh, here, here are my forms. And I would make copies, scan my copies of everything, and send it to her because she was not local. I used to go to a local one, but you know, now she's, she lives in another state. And so I would make sure I, back in the day, faxed it, sent it securely to her so she could do the taxes, but then it was like, you know, nail-biting because she was working on other clients as well. And there was that deadline. And so she would be so crazy busy that I would be like, oh my God, did you get, you know, and then -- do I owe, do I owe? And if I, oh, I have to prepare or am I getting anything back? And so that's whole that nail-biting period of time, where a good month or two, even if I started at the end of January, here are all my forms. She was insanely busy. So she got to me when she got to me. And so sometimes I'd be waiting a month and I'd be like, do I owe money? So ultimately it's so much nicer now that she already knows my accounts well, and we meet periodically so I can explain, you know, things, money that comes in. What was that for? Where should I categorize that? And basically that's it. And she manages by the way, not just the income coming in in one payment, because I allow my clients to pay me either PayPal credit card, ACH. There's multiple ways that my clients can pay me. And she handles all of those accounts, including my personal account that comes in so that we can make sure that I get the best tax advantages that I can for the year. Pilar: Yeah. That's really important. One of the things that I think is for me, so my brother-in-law used to do my taxes way, way back when, and then one day he basically said, okay, Pilar, you're all grown up. You need to start doing your own taxes. And I was like, what? I was incensed. I was so hurt. And then I was like, yeah, it's called being a grownup. So I went to TurboTax, and I think I might've done one year. Anne: Yeah. We tried that too. It gets complicated when you're personal. And then business. Pilar: The reason why I mentioned is because that's exactly what happened to me is that I thought that I could do it all because -- I know a lot of people who do their -- I know a lot of actors who do their own taxes. And I think that that's awesome. And if you are really good with numbers, and you understand bookkeeping, good for you. But if you don't, and this is something that a really good friend of mine taught me, if there is something that you can't do when you're just butting your head against the wall, there are people who know how to do it better than you. Anne: Oh my gosh. Pilar: So stop be trying to invent the wheel. Anne: Be smart, outsource. Pilar: Exactly. Go and get an accountant. There are plenty of accountants who are specialized, and that's important, to find an accountant who is specialized in the kind of business that you have. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Pilar: And so they know what to deduct, and they know that they can -- you know, so if you have a business, and you're inside your house, they can figure out, you know, I can take this much for, in terms of using my business in the home, because there are ways to structure that, and they know how to do that. Anne: Right. Pilar: But trying to do it on your own when you don't know what you're doing, and you're using a platform, I can't tell you the amount of times I messed up on TurboTax. Anne: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Well, and us too, it's a nightmare. It is a nightmare. Pilar: And it can cost you a lot of money. And luckily my brother-in-law would, he would like, you know, drag me from the edge. And finally I said, okay, that's fine. I get it. I'm hiring an accountant. Anne: Yeah. Well, it's like one of the, I can do it. Yeah. I'll save money if I do it. In reality, by the time you've finished doing it, you've spent so many hours trying to learn -- Pilar: That you can't get back -- Anne: -- and then do it -- Pilar: You can't get back those hours. Anne: And plus you're not up on all the tax laws. That's the other thing. You could be making deductions that you did not, or you're, you may not know about deductions that you can take. And that is so, so important, which is why for me, I'd rather invest it. I consider it an investment. My accountant is an investment in my business ,and she helps to -- she explains things to me and has to tell her, like, what does this even mean? And I'll just say, hey, look, I'm not proud. We are entrepreneurs. We own our own business. If you do well at that business, I remember the first few years, of course I showed a loss, right? And the government expects that right for businesses. So you can have a loss and I actually did have a loss, but when you start making money, and then if you start making a certain amount of money and you are a self-employed, they look harder at you. And so it is not inconceivable that you will get audited, even if, you know, I mean, look, I'm on the up and up. I mean, my accountant's on the up and up, and I got audited a couple of years ago, and it's not fun, but because we were organized, and she had done my taxes for so long, it was super easy for us to submit, like they thought we were missing paperwork or they wanted proof for some donations or whatever it was. I can't even remember what it was, but we had it. It wasn't a big deal at all, but anything that goes through the government, as you know, takes that amount of time. And she was able to like send the certified letters, send everything that they needed. And then of course they didn't receive it. I got another letter that said, blah, blah, blah, or I owed, and I needed to pay. Whatever that was, she was able to take care of it for me. And it was just, uh, it was, oh, it was just a godsend because otherwise I would have had to do it myself. And it's scary when you get audited. You're like, oh my God, did I do something wrong? Of course I didn't do my, you know, she did it for me. I'm like, oh my God, did something happen? Did we take a deduction that shouldn't have happened? Of course not. So, but you've got to prove it. You've got to prove it to them. So. Pilar: And they know, because they've been doing it for so many years, they know how to go up against the government and say, no, no, it's right here. Anne: Line here. I deducted this. Yup. Pilar: Yeah. They know the lingo. They know how to do it. And also something that I learned this past year is that they are behind a good six weeks. Anne: Always. If, if not more. Pilar: If you ever get a letter from the government, they're responding to something that happened six to eight weeks before this. And so if you're like panicking going, oh my gosh, I don't know what to do, that's why it's always great to have an account in your corner, knowing what's going on, because then everything is up, and it's out in the open. Trying to be underhanded is not great. And if you make a mistake, you're setting yourself back and you're giving yourself a headache when guess what? You could be spending time in the booth. Anne: Sure. Pilar: So like, for example, in this organizer that we were talking about before, it gives you ideas and things that you can deduct. So let's say you haven't really paid attention to your stuff. You can go ahead and look back. That's why a credit card is so important because that's where you see the spending, and you can see, oh, I spent this money on that. Or, oh, I can actually deduct this, but you have to have your receipts all in one place. That's why you want to have a separate credit card. Anne: Oh. And I try to use that credit card for every single transaction. And that includes healthcare as well. Because as part of my business, right, taking care of my health, I have a deductible. I have a healthcare plan through my husband, but what I pay that's not covered by that is also deductible. And that can be towards my tax year. And so if I pay for everything on that credit card, it's super simple to organize for my accountant. Just almost everything goes on the credit card as a matter of fact. I think I only write, I only write checks and that and checks really, the one credit card and checks, and it's been probably the easiest thing ever. I think the fact that I accept multiple credit cards coming in and checks coming in and PayPal and Venmo, I accept all these other incoming pathways of income, that's harder for her to organize than the fact that I only pay out on my credit card or I write a check once in a while. It's funny because I almost don't know how to write a check anymore. Pilar: I know I never do. I almost never do. It's really funny. Anne: And who mails a check? I mean, like oh my God. Pilar: Well, what about when you're sending it to the IRS? Anne: Yes, exactly. Pilar: Then you have to certify it and make sure they get it and return receipt. That whole business. Anne: Goodness. Yep. Pilar: Something that I started doing too for myself, even though I hand everything over, but I like having my stuff organized. So this is, and I'm going to tell the VO BOSSes, this is how I used to do my taxes. Just so you realize -- Anne: The shoe box. Pilar: Practically. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: So I would have different folders. I had different folders, but I mean, we're talking less than three years ago, I was still doing this. All right? We're not talking like 10, 20 years ago. And I would use either my laptop calculator or I would use my iPhone calculator to add up all my gas. Okay. That's how backward I was. Anne: Oh. And mileage too, remember mileage like, when you would travel anywhere, to a studio. Pilar: Back then. Yeah. But back in the old days. Anne: Before the pandemic. Pilar: Right, exactly. Before the pandemic, but I would literally add everything up, and then I would give her the totals, you know, how much I spent on clothing for auditions, on headshots, and resumes, blah, blah, blah. And there's so many now on the market, but the one I use, and I'm actually thinking of changing to QuickBooks, but I use Quicken. So Quicken is great for you to -- and it's basically, it doesn't really matter what the program is. It's basically for you to be able to see A, you can balance, you can balance your budget that way, which is really important, but you can also see, and it can give you summaries of what you spent over the year. So then you go, oh, okay. This is how much I'm spending on groceries. So this is how much I'm spending on takeout, since you've got all these categories and then you can sit there and you can look. Okay, do I really need, you know, in terms of creating a budget for yourself, because you know, we're still kind of going through this situation and where people, jobs and whatever -- the whole market has changed. So it's really great to keep an inventory of what you're doing, and for tax time, then you've got it all in one place. You just have to say, oh yes, okay. This is how much I spent on classes. This is how much I spent on new equipment. Anne: Yep, coaching or yep, new equipment, studio costs. I have an entire folder when I built my studio for just studio costs. Pilar: Exactly. And all of that of course is deductible because it's your business. And so that way, when you've got a program like Quicken or QuickBooks and there's, you can keep track of it through waves. There's the waves app, the Mint, there's, there's so many, Next Wallet, you just keep track of what you're spending and also what you're earning. And I think it's really helpful because really, and truly, we are voice artists. We're also entrepreneurs. We're also our own business. If we treat ourselves like that, if we treat ourselves like serious business people, other people are going to, when they look at our business, they're going to go, oh, okay. She knows where this is. She knows how to, you know, the invoice, this, this is how I do my business. And that is something that, you know, you can go home at night and go, yeah, I'm a business. I'm an artist doing my business. And that's really important. And then when tax time rolls around -- tax time -- you're not freaking out. Right? Because you've got your stuff organized. Anne: That's the biggest thing. BOSSes, if you take anything away from this, it's being organized sooner rather than later, all through the year, every single day. Be organized, track those expenses and have that account, try to keep it as simple as possible. And like I said, we're actually kind of lucky. We're not as complex as some corporations that provide healthcare and hire employees. I mean, I outsource, so that's a whole other thing because I pay people as well. But honestly, compared to like a normal corporation, it's fairly simple what we do and what we need to keep track of. So I think that if you can give yourself a certain amount of time each week, each day to just make sure those expenses are categorized, they're organized, they're put into financial software, you talk about QuickBooks or Quicken -- I used to use Quicken, but now I use QuickBooks online with my accountant. We can both go into the same account and look and try to reconcile. If she has any questions, she can ask me. And it's a really great way to just keep on track with things. That's the best thing you can do is keep on track because by the end of the year, the last thing you want to do is to be scrambling. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. It really is great to be able to see what it is that you do in your daily life. We couldn't really do this before the age of digital. And so it's really nice to be able to see, because we're freelancers at the end of the day. Unless you have a nine to five job doing this, you don't really know how you're spending your money. So it's, it's a really nice sort of bird's-eye view of seeing, okay, this is what I spent on gas. This is what I spent on takeout. Maybe I can cook a little bit more at home if the money situation, if it's that time of year, when there're not a lot of auditions coming in and you're not booking work as much as you'd like to, then you can say, oh, okay, I can shave a little bit off of this. Because you see, and you have your totals and you see what you've spent for the month. You've, you've already figured out what your budget is, so. And it takes time. I didn't come to this, these realizations overnight. It took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to figure it out. Anne: And tears. Pilar: You know, but there're great resources online. You know, I don't know if people are aware, there's this organization called actorsfund.com and you just have to basically, you know, you can do orientation sign up as an actor because we are actors, and they have all these great courses like budgeting nuts and bolts, how to create your own budget. Anne: Oh, nice. How do people get there again? What is that, actorsfund.com? Pilar: Actorsfund.com. Anne: Awesome. Great. Pilar: There're all sorts of programs. I mean, if you live in New York, there's ways you can, they talk about housing. They talk about mindfulness meditation. Anne: Because after we do our taxes, we need that. Pilar: We need to lay down. Anne: We need mindful meditation to calm down. I also want to say though, that not just for full-time entrepreneurs, but for people who are doing this part-time, I remember when I did it part-time, I didn't at the time have enough opportunity to make a certain amount of money so that the taxes were simpler. If I made a thousand dollars in the year, did I actually report that as a business income? Not necessarily, but if you are part-time, and you intend on either you're getting enough work, and you're intending on going full time, getting that business bank account, figuring out if you're going to be an LLC or an S-corp or DBA, whatever that is, I think the sooner you start that, the better. And it's always good to be mindful of keeping your accounts separate. So if you are doing this part-time, maybe get, if you're not incorporated yet, or you're not a DBA yet, just get a separate credit card and only use that. And then maybe see if you can get a different bank account. Hopefully your bank will allow you to get a business bank account so that anything that comes in or goes out, goes through that account. So start early with that. Pilar: And check out, I think it's, Next Wallet. You can actually do comparison of credit cards to get really good deals. So you can get a credit card that can give you points, and you can even pay for some of your bill with the points. Anne: Yeah, that's, that's what mine is. So whenever I use to buy, I get money back at the end of the year. I get like 2%, 3% back. And that's typically what I do because I don't want to pay my full bill. Right? Pilar: There are a lot of resources out there. You just have to look for them to help you. And it does get easier with time. Anne: It does get easier, guys. BOSSes, you can survive tax time. Pilar, and I are here to tell you that. Get yourself organized. Pilar: It'll go from "it's Tax Time" to "it's tax time, yay." Anne: There you go. There we go. Wow. Good topic. Not always one that I love talking about, but hey, it's a necessary topic. And to be BOSSes, we have to move forward and get prepared and pay those taxes and survive the season. So BOSSes, we have the faith that you can do this. I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows you to network and connect like a BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Pilar: See you next time. Anne: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Have you ever wanted to be someone else (or maybe just sound like someone else?). Expand your performance reach with speech-to-speech technology and explore new options as an actor! Anne & Alex Serdiuk from Respeecher discuss how voice actors can benefit from incorporating digitized voice options into their repertoire using the Respeecher platform. They chat tech, marketplace, usage, and just a few of the possibilities available to VO talent using speech-to-speech to enhance their acting range. Winner of SOVAS Outstanding Podcast: https://www.sovas.org/2022-winners/ More at https://voboss.com/voice-and-ai-growing-respeecher

Have you ever tried singing your audition copy? Anne & Pilar do! This week, your hosts will teach you how to let go in the booth and approach scripts using a musical edge. All copy has a distinct flow and requires proper pacing, a distinct rhythm, and hints of uniqueness that keep listeners interested. Get ready to listen, sing, and most importantly, break down copy like a #VOBOSS! More at: https://voboss.com/singing-and-vo Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with a very special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Hey, Pilar. [Pilar humming] Anne: Hey, I recognize that. Hey, is that this song? [song playing] Ugh, Pilar, I love, love, love this song. And you know what? Even if I didn't know what it meant, like, I feel like the title just says it all, "Attacks of Happiness." Like honestly, like that's just a joyful, happy song. You are so multi-talented -- again, I say the triple, quadruple, multilevel threat. I think there's a lot to be said about singing and musicality in voiceover. And I'd love to chat with you about that today. Pilar: Yeah, it's funny because a lot of people think that singing and acting aren't connected or they say, oh, I can't sing. You don't have to be a singer to have a sense of musicality and incorporate that into your work. Anne: Or a musician. We'll just say musician, right? I think there's so many parallels in voiceover. Pilar: Absolutely. Because the thing is is that when you're given a script, whether it's 30 seconds, or it's, you know, an audiobook, or it's 10 pages of e-learning there's beats and there's rhythm to it. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: You have to find that, you have to find the musicality of whatever it is that you're talking about. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: And so it really doesn't matter what the, what the length is. You need to break it down and create beats and find the beats and find where there are the parts where you can slow down and speed up. Anne: And the rhythm. Pilar: And the tonality of it. Anne: Well, you know, what's so interesting, and I teach conversational melody to my students, and what's so interesting -- yeah, what's so interesting -- Pilar: Oh, talk about that, that's so cool. Anne: -- we don't -- thank you -- we don't ever really listen to our own conversation and break it down into melody, but all the time we're getting specs that say conversational or talk to us like it's your best friend. Right? And so, because we don't think about what we sound like melodically when we're talking conversationally, over the years, I've broken it down technically. But again, you can't spend too much time thinking about the technicality of it, but just know that we're organically thinking about what we're saying, right? So that has everything to do with the pacing and the rhythm of how we talk, because I'm thinking of things to say in my brain. And then they come out my mouth, and when that happens, I'm thinking, okay, now I know what I'm going to say. Right? So I'm thinking, here's my rhythm and my length of what I'm going to say. And then I know what I'm saying. And ultimately, when it comes to important words that I want you to hear, I'm basically making those whole notes or holding the notes longer. So I really want you to listen to this. So I've really like emphasized that. And so that becomes part of a melody. It becomes part of music. If you read music, think of it as your whole note, and all the words that lead up to the important word as your half notes, your 16th notes, your 8th notes, whatever that is. And then you also need to think about like, phrasing, right? Because I don't breathe in the middle of what I'm saying to you. I don't do this and then breathe and chop my phrases like this. I do this. I just -- all my words are kind of flowing along, and I'm creating a phrase or a thought or an idea in one breath. So it's similar to singing, right, and singing phrases because you don't stop and breathe in the middle of them all. You basically have one breath and you're like, hey, this is what I want to say to you. You're not going to go, hey, this is what I want to say to you. It's no, it's, it's really very different. And I think what people might tend to not think about is when you're being conversational and believable, it's all about the pacing, all about the rhythm and the pacing, which makes it more believable. And if you're too consistent in anything that you do, right, in your melody, in your beat, in your rhythm, it becomes like white noise. And so that's where people tune you out, right? It becomes like a metronome. Pilar: Yup. Anne: And now I've heard that enough. And so I tune you out. So I think that rhythm and the melody is so, so important to the musicality. And like you were saying, I mean, it's almost like with voiceover, it is a song. Your script is a song. Pilar: I love that you teach that. I think that that's awesome. And for those VO BOSSes who think, I don't know how to carry a tune, and I don't know about beats, if you've ever sat in a restaurant or a bar and you've tapped your foot to something, or you've been watching television and you're kind of like, you get into it, you're holding the beat. You are carrying the beat in your feet. So it's part of us. Anytime we hear music and any time something strikes us, and we, we start moving our shoulders, let's say, or we start moving our bodies or just our torsos, we are holding rhythm. Anne: Oh yeah. Rhythm and energy. Pilar: Yeah. Rhythm and energy, absolutely. So when you are looking at a script, let's say a 30-second script, you have to figure out where that is. And by musicality, doesn't mean that I'm going to be talking like this. I'm no, it's not about -- Anne: And you don't want to be sing-song either. Pilar: No, absolutely not. Anne: Right? Exactly. Pilar: But there is a rhythm. You know, if you listen to like a lot of the times, I, I love to listen to the Superbowl commercials, but I close my eyes, or I will look at a commercial and I'll turn the sound off because you will see the rhythm in the movement, as well as in the vocal quality of it. There's a very specific rhythm to certain products. And they're very, very aware of this. So as voice actors, we have to become aware of it as well, so we're not, as you said before, you know, we're not the same all the way through. Because it's really easy to get into that flow. And you're like, oh, this is really great. I'm in the flow. So I'm just going to keep talking the same way. And it's like, mm-mm, that's not the way we talk in real life. Anne: Right, right. But I love how you brought up that there's to, any particular script or any particular commercial, if you listen, there's a musicality. And then there's something that they call sonic branding. Right? [McDonald's jingle] you know, that kind of thing, or "we got the meats, "that kind of thing where it becomes part of the brand, that melody, but you want your melody when you're voicing something to be something that draws the listener in. And that usually means something that is not consistent or musical in any kind of consistent pattern, because that then becomes predictable. And the last thing that we want to do is to become predictable in our voiceover acting. Pilar: Yeah. It's really important to, when you're listening to voiceovers, because that's where you do the homework. That's when you find out, oh, what is it that these people are getting, you know, paid the big bucks, let's say for super bowl commercials, what is it that they have? And you'll find this little irregular heartbeats, shall we say? And you'll find little pieces of humor and little turns of a phrase, and it's not about copying it. It's about -- a big part of finding the musicality is also feeling it. Anne: Yes. Agreed. Pilar: You have to be able to kind of feel the rhythm because when we're sitting there and we're tapping our feet, if we're in a bar or we're in a restaurant, we're feeling the rhythm and we're like, oh, okay. "I'm having attacks of happiness." So, you know, you can sit there and you can find that rhythm. You can do that when you're speaking, but you have to find the rhythm. Anne: I have to tell you, and we're talking like all areas of music that can help you in voice over, I have an app called Appcompanist. And actually that was introduced to me by my singing teacher. I do have a singing teacher, and what I love about singing. And even if I don't think, look, I'm not going to go out on the stage anytime soon and sing at the bar down the street. No, but it's all about being able to control, also warmup. I mean, singing is a great warmup for your voice, and also figure out where I can place my vocals. You know, there's a lot to be said for placing vocals in different places. And that becomes a way that we can explore our range as a voice actor and range in terms of pitch. But I don't think we should ever become like, oh, I just need to pitch up in this particular note for the rest of the copy. It just gives us a place to start from. And that is very, very helpful in getting different ranges in your vocal footprint. Pilar: Yes, I totally get what you're saying. An image came to me as to, because obviously as we grow older, our voices get deeper, and I've found that I've found a deepness in my chest that I -- I was always up here talking here. I was sort of like up in my throat. Anne: Yeah, me too. Pilar: And then when I started concentrating on my chest, I have found different levels of my chest voice. So it's right here, and it's really, really intense. Anne: And the cool thing is, is that it becomes a place where you feel where the sound is coming from, rather than trying to mimic or trying to like get to a particular note. It becomes, oh, I feel the vibration in my chest. So that's all I care about thinking about when I'm voicing this, just make sure that that voice is coming from my chest. Or, and I actually saw this -- Debbie Derryberry, who's a wonderful character actress, she has a TikTok channel, which she has quite a few followers. She just reached 1 million. But she talked about how she created some of her character voices. And so one of them was like, she would actually be talking, say, okay, so she's a little bit younger. So now I feel like her voice is coming from her eyes. You know? And so, as she was saying it, she was pointing to the different places where her voice was coming out. And that really helps to change the pitch of the voice. And also she added the emotion and the feeling along with it, and that really created a believable character. It was really a fun thing to watch, but that is the idea of a vocal placement and how singing can help your voiceover to really evolve and expand your repertoire of characters. Pilar: Absolutely. One of the things that I do, and I, I need to do it more often, but it happens more when I'm stuck. I'm looking at a piece of copy, and I'm like, ah, I don't know what to do with this. I start singing it. I sing the whole thing. Anne: Oh, interesting. Pilar: Yeah. So if you've got "plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh, what a relief it is," you know, that kind of a thing, or so I will do the reverse, if I'm hearing a song. So for example, this is a script that I did a couple of years ago. "When it comes to finding quality care for your kids, you can't make any compromises. [sings] When it comes to finding quality care for your kids, you can't make any compromises." Just something as simple as that will completely change, if you go through the entire script, it'll completely change the way you thought something could be. 'Cause here's the thing that I found about voice. I've always seen my voice is kind of like a race horse. And sometimes it just shoots out of the stable, and it's like, I don't know where it's going because it's like completely wild. And I have to rein it in. But sometimes I need to give it like a little push. So I'll sing my copy. And it's like, when a dog turns around three times and then settles himself down -- my cat, my cat does the same thing, of course, because she copied my dog when he was alive -- but it's kind of like, if you don't know where to go with something and then you kind of distract, you distract it. Anne: I think it leads obviously to a different melody when you voice it. And possibly, I think it leads you to thinking about it in different emotions. Pilar: Exactly, exactly. Anne: Which I'm always like, if you want to create you know the ABC takes, which I think everybody in the world just goes, this is take one. This is take two. This is take three. Right? And all they do is change the first note. Right. So if you think about that, that's so predictable. And we really need our takes to be completely unique and different. So I love that you lead with singing it because that can lead you to a different sound. And then that sound can lead you to a different emotion, and that can lead you to a different place in your imagination. So that really takes you almost into a different scene and a different reaction to the scene, which then gives you a completely different take. Bam. Pilar: And also -- exactly. Because the thing is, you're looking at the script, but you -- myself, I don't know what -- I may read the script, but I don't really know what it's about because I've spent exactly 30 seconds on it. You know, a copywriter has spent days or even weeks on it. Anne: Which is why we should all spend a little bit more than 30 seconds. Pilar: Exactly. It's my job to become familiar with it. So if I don't really know, let's say about care.com. Care.com... "Care.com understands this better than anyone." Well, do they really understand it better than anyone? Anne: What do they understand? Pilar: Exactly. They know that you want to find someone great who can bond with your kids and take care of them. And then if I do different things, if I go to different places, so let's say I'm stuck with this. And I'll, "when it comes to finding quality care for your kids, you can't make any compromises." I'm not going to do that for the actual thing, but that'll bring me somewhere and I'll go, oh, that's really interesting. I did it sort of like an older person like this and Care.com -- "when it comes to finding quality care for your kids" -- that just gave it a whole different range. I mean, I don't know how different, but I felt it different when I went back and I did it quickly just as an example, because I got to a different place. Anne: Yeah. I get that. Here's a thought, you know, it's so funny that you say you sing it because a lot of times when I come in my studio getting ready to do an audition, I'm singing because I'm like, "hello, and here I am," you know, "I'm in the booth now." And so I'll just start singing it and I'll sing my script. It's so funny that you said that. And I consider that a little bit of a warmup, but here's a thought. What if we just started singing script while we then did a quick Google search and went to the website? Because I think then again, I think there's a visual branding that you get from that company that can tell you how they want to portray themselves to the customer. And I think that would help a lot in terms of giving you a different scene, a visual plus your singing, and then go back to the copy and see what happens. Pilar: And there's a big part of this that -- I can only speak for myself. But when I'm looking at a script for the first time, I have a built-in skeptic, and I have the adult that has to do her homework, and she has to get the audition done. And what I do when I sing, and I also do exactly what you just said, which is I look at the copy and I'm sort of distracting myself. It's almost like I'm fooling the adult part of me so I can kind of say, okay, it's time for you to take a step back and then let the child enter and play with this script. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: That gives it more flavors too, because if you're looking at it with the eyes of an adult, like, okay, I have to break this down, and I have to do this, which is important. Breaking down the script is really important and finding the beats, but it's also being able to say, okay, let's put the adult aside for a second and let's just play with it. Let's sing, let's be goofy. Let's put on a boa and the -- you know, that's why I talk about using props in the booth when I'm doing auditions, and let's be a diva. And I have a teacher who a lot of the times I'll be doing characters, and then he'll have me go way, way off on a tangent and give me just, just to go completely over the top. And then he's like, okay, now go right into the character straight. Anne: Yeah, yeah, you do the wild take and then completely over the top, then bring it down. Yeah. That's an excellent piece of advice too. And by going over the top, you can be singing, right? Again, I feel like just taking yourself out of that like metronome of here's, what it should sound like, and then getting yourself off of that melody, whatever it takes, singing, to get yourself off of that melody. There's so many people that have, they come into the booth with a melody in their head because they've heard it for years, a particular announcery way. This is different. What you need to do is to, again, make it that authentic believable and take it to a different note, really. I have a blog that I wrote that's called Perfectly Imperfect and the voice artist is one of my favorite doing this corporate piece, which is about two minutes long, talking about how technology should be made for all of us, right? She's a beautiful voice, but it's imperfect. It cracks, it splits. It's a little raspy. And she ends up talking on notes that we wouldn't anticipate, meaning she's very much in the scene, very much talking and thinking as she's talking. And it leads her to these notes in the copy, which are beautiful and so unique that it makes me listen. And I think that that is where we want to strive to be. Like, we can't just say the words in a melody that is like, we've already rehearsed it. We already know the ending of the story. We have to work in that melody that surprises us, that as we discover what's happening, it's evident in our melody. It's evident in our emotion. And I think that a lot of times, that melody doesn't have to be all over the map. You don't have to be an opera singer. We don't have to be singing scales that are crazy. It can be, again, very nuanced. In our conversational melodies, we don't really, if you're talking about music, we don't really go thirds. Right? We aren't talking about this because we're not that excited all the time, right? Or maybe we're only excited for a few, a few words, which in case you can advance that third. You're almost never going between a C and a C sharp, right, or a C and a D in conversational melody, a C and a D. I didn't say C and a D! I said, C and a D. If you're musical, you're hearing that C and a D, I went up just a touch. And so musically, you're not creating crazy riffs or crazy splits, unless maybe you're a character. Right? And you have a more dynamic personality. So I think that the musicality changes with the character, changes with the emotion. Pilar: Yes, absolutely. One of the things that I think is so important is to recognize, because I struggle with this. When I look at the copy and the reason why I'll go out and sing it is because my first instinct is to play it safe. It's like, I'm going to be a good little girl and read the specs. And I'm going to follow the specs to the letter. And I'm going to do my little homework and do my beats and everything. And there's a moment where you have to just get out of that box. Anne: Be the naughty girl. Pilar: Yeah. Anne: You've got to be the naughty girl. Pilar: Oh Anne, now we got some, we got a little insight in here to Anne Ganguzza's private life. VO BOSSes, take note. Anne: Oh my goodness. But isn't that what they tell us all the time? Pilar: Absolutely. Anne: You've got to catch the casting director's ear who has just listened to the same melody 200 times. Think about it. Pilar: Exactly. Exactly. So they're looking for the raspy. Anne: What does that melody that they expect? They're looking for the unexpected. Yeah. Pilar: They're looking for the imperfect. So when you hear something, this is something that's really important in acting that I learned many years ago, you do your beats, you do your homework, you rehearse it, you rehearse it. But then when you do actually do the copy for a take, you're allowing the words to speak as if it's for the first time. So you're acting for the first time, because you know, the one thing that I hear when I'm in workshops is, you know, people they're reading the script, and it's like, you cannot read the script. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: You, you can read the script when it's the first time. That's awesome. It's great. But if you're going to do that for an audition, you better have a whole world behind it. So it's like, and that's where employing something like music comes into it. I mean, this is something that someone else me in doing promos. It really helps to have something like a song in the back. So for example, I'll take my headphones off, and I'll put my iPhone headphones in so it doesn't bleed, and I'll be listening to music on my phone. And then I'll just listen to a piece of music that is going to help me out for this particular audition. And that will kind of get me into the rhythm of it. And that, it's just really funny, 'cause I'll listen to when I first read it and then I'll listen to it the second time around, and I'll be like, oh my God, this is a completely differently read. It's the funniest thing. Anne: It's completely different. I love that for a tip because you know, it's funny. I remember like, and sometimes I'll do this. I'll do an example of here's why, if you're just simply yourself telling a story and you're focused on that, that melody fits any kind of music underneath you. You could have something strong and dramatic, or you can have something that's quiet. And just look, I'm talking to you from the heart, and you could have swells of music when you're just like, I'm talking from the heart and then you could be dramatic and loud underneath you, that fits. And it also fits with a calm piano piece. And it's so interesting when I do that example, I'll actually put different music underneath a very conversational voice and show how it really works. So that authentic, real sound, that melody goes with any type of music. And I think that's why it's really requested quite a bit. Not only for that reason, because you can put any kind of music or maybe visuals with it, because it works, because you're telling the story. But also just because it's effective. Like if you're fighting with the other elements of the piece, which would be music and visuals, then you're fighting, and that is not effective in engaging your audience, plus it sells, right? That's like the bottom line. Most people want that, because a real authentic person is going to sell more than an announcer or somebody that's mimicking or somebody that doesn't sound believable. And so therefore you have to understand that melody of being engaged in a conversation without really trying to follow any other type of melody or mimicking a melody. I love the talk about music today. Pilar: The one thing that I will say, especially for the people out there who don't sing, don't censor yourself. Even if you're off key, it doesn't matter. You're in your booth, you're in a safe place. Anne: That's right. Pilar: Sometimes, 'cause I have a, I have a really good ear, so I can always hear when I'm just a little bit off or when I hear any other singer, that's like literally like a sharp over or a sharp or a flat under, and I can hear it. And it's like, unh, but the important thing is, if you're on a roll and you're going at it in the booth, don't stop yourself. Follow through on that idea, even if you're not really sure where it's going. A lot of the times as voiceover actors, we want to get it perfect, and we don't let ourselves go through the entire phrase of that. So if you feel like I'm not really where it's going, keep going, because your voice, again, your voice is like a race horse. You have to keep going with it even if it might not be going in the exactly the direction that you imagined, don't stop yourself because you may find some great nuggets. Anne: Yeah, let it, let it flow. Pilar: Yeah. You may find some great nuggets in there. Anne: Yeah. Let it flow. And what's so interesting is I'm going to say -- Pilar: "Let it flow. Let it flow." I just had to bring that in. Anne: As we round out the end of this episode is try then, and this is a hard one. So understand your melody, let it evolve. Let it come out of you naturally without trying to listen to it. Because once you try to listen to the melody, as you're speaking it or voicing it, you then distract yourself from telling that story. And it's, it's another layer of your brain that doesn't need to be invoked with listening to what you sound like. Because when you listen to what you sound like, then you're listening to what you sound like. And you're not concentrated on letting the music flow out of you, letting the script flow out of you. And that's such a tough thing to grasp. And I want BOSSes out there to know, this does not happen overnight. This is something that all of us as actors, we work on this and hone our craft for years. We're constantly honing our craft. So I know there's so many people out there, they get very frustrated. And when you're building an ear, like you said, you have an ear, and that's could be a whole other podcast. Like how do you build your ear? It is not an overnight thing. Building your ear takes time. And it's very difficult to detach yourself while still hearing yourself. As I was just saying, don't listen to your melody; just let it evolve and let it flow out of you. And that's a tough thing to do. And while you're developing your ear, all of a sudden you can hear all sorts of weird things. And you're like, I don't even know what I'm listening to anymore. That's the person who does 15 consecutive auditions in a row. By the 15th, you don't even know what you're listening to anymore. It's then become a repetitive rut. Pilar: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and something really to keep in mind is that there's only room for one role in the booth. You cannot be the actor, the director, and the critic all at once. Anne: Yeah. That's an excellent point. PIlar: When you're doing the piece or, you know, beforehand, you can direct yourself, and then you have to let go, put that one to the side, the director role to the side, do the piece, stop, and then edit, but really try not to do it mid-sentence because you're just, it's like, that's like the death of creativity. Anne: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Wow. What a cool episode. Thank you, Pilar. This is so interesting. Pilar: Yeah, it was, it was great. And I learned a lot from you too. It's like, now I want to take your conversational melody course. Anne: Thank you. I took piano when I was younger and I did sing a little bit to the point where I think that's where I base a lot of where my voice and my words come out. I mean, everything's a melody, right? Pilar: Yep. Absolutely. Everything is a melody. Anne: That being said, I'd like to give a huge shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows us to explore our melodies with friends and peers and coworkers near and far. You can find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week. and we'll see you next week. Bye. Pilar: "Ciao, bella mia." >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Microphones are microscopes. They pick up everything, including thoughtful acting! In this episode, Anne & Pilar discuss why acting is essential to a successful VO career. Acting requires imagination, creativity, and using much more than just your voice. Tune in for advice on involving your body in your read, the intimacy of voice acting, and why you need to develop a character for every genre… More at https://voboss.com/the-art-of-voice-acting Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Good morning, Pilar. How are you? Pilar: I am great, Anne. I'm doing well. How are you? Anne: Oh, you know, I'm doing all right. Except I, I've already spilled half a cup of coffee. Oops. I just -- Pilar: Did it again? Anne: -- I admitted that I drink -- no, I admit that I drink coffee. I love my coffee, and people that listen to this podcast know how much I love my coffee. So I have to chase it with lots and lots of water so it doesn't dry my mouth out. And hopefully you're not hearing mouth noise at this point, but anyway. Pilar: I just heard one. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Anne: So there we go. So then, I'm going to have you talk so you can hear less of my mouth noise. Pilar: Okay. Anne: But I love our conversations that we've been having. And in our last couple of episodes, we talked about what it was like for you to be a bilingual VO in the industry and what it takes to be successful. And I want to kind of step back because you've had such an extensive career in all sorts of things. And I think something that's really important that I want to kind of reign in and talk a little bit more about is your acting experience. And I know that there's a lot of voiceover artists out there that are like, oh my gosh, I've never really acted. At least I came from the corporate side of things and didn't have an acting background, but as I went along, I learned acting. And I don't want people to be afraid that well, just because they don't have a ton of acting experience that they can't do voiceover. However, I do believe it's important for us to talk about how important acting is in our career. Pilar: It is, I would say, fundamental. Anne: Yeah. Pilar: That's why the word acting is in voice acting. Anne: Yeah, I agree. Pilar: You know, this is something that also happens. Sometimes people think that you're like a talking head when you're on television, because you only get to see, let's say shoulders or chest, shoulders, and face. But when you're acting, you're acting with your whole body, and that goes for voice as well. So when I started acting in high school, when I started getting formal training, I majored in theater and we had acting classes. And you know, you do the proverbial, you know, act like a teapot, act like a tiger, and all these sense exercises. Anne: I was a dog in my third grade play. Pilar: Exactly, exactly. You know how to go bow-wow. Anne: I'm just saying. Pilar: But those things are important. What does it feel like to be on all fours rather than to be upright? And it's something that I think that a lot of voice actors don't think that they need. And you need to have those sensory experiences, however you're going to get them. So a lot of the work that I did when I was in college and later when I went down to Colombia, for example, I kept taking acting classes even while I had a television career, because I had to keep the body trained, because the body gets rusty, and we're, we tend to be lazy. And I'm the first to admit it. Anne: I think to be said for -- you made me just think about when I was a little girl, right? Remember when we had all kinds of imagination or is it just me? It's like, I used to imagine -- Pilar: Yes. Back then. Anne: Back then I had so much imagination, and I would play with my dolls. I would teach my dolls. I had my stuffed Mickey Mouse. I dragged him everywhere. And we became like acting partners if, for nothing else. Right? Pilar: Totally. Anne: I had all sorts of adventures with him. And I think that there's a lot to be said for that. And somehow when we get older, sometimes we lose that unless we're actively going into acting like you were. And I think that we need to readdress that as we become adults and find areas or times when we can go back to that time to create scenes and use our imagination. And I think there's a lot of that in voiceover that we have to do behind the mic because we're acting in front of a non-existent audience. Pilar: Do you remember, did you ever make forts? Anne: Oh yes. All the time. Pilar: Okay. So making forts, you're making forts out of pillows, out of blankets. You're making up a scene, a place, a cubby hole, a cave that basically doesn't exist. Anne: Right. Pilar: And that's what we have to do when we step in front of the mic and we're doing, let's say, a video game, and we have to imagine that we are a warrior or we are a computer game. I did a video game last year that came out, actually it was in 2020 or 2021. And it came out a couple of weeks ago where I played, I actually played a computer voice. That was one of my characters. And then the other character was an old woman. And so for the old woman, I changed my stance completely. So I was hunched over. I always have, since my voiceover booth is my closet, I basically just took my clothes -- I did leave some clothes out, but I just padded the whole thing. And I have a couple of scarves handy. When I would play that character, that older character I would hunch over, and I would put a shawl over me over my head, over my shoulders. Anne: So you got props. Pilar: Yeah, oh, I always have props, always have props. Whether it's a cell phone, I have, I actually have a toy gun on my desk, a little plastic toy gun, because so many of these characters, we know when I'm auditioning or when I'm doing them, they require, let's say the older lady, she was hallucinating. And so she was seeing things, and she was just immersed in grief. So I had to go there with her in order for my voice to register. It wasn't that I was manipulating the voice. I had to feel her sadness and her grief and her seeing things, which weren't really there because she was so enmeshed in her grief. And so the only way that I can do that is if I imagine it. So you're absolutely right about going back in time. If there is a time that you can go back to. And I did this all the time when I was in Colombia. There were so many characters that I did that I had no previous experience in playing. Anne: Well, I was going to say, I say, Pilar, I know you, and you're not evil, but yet you played an evil character. Right? Pilar: Oh, and she was so much fun to play. Anne: And, you know, what's interesting is I watched the little clip that you had, and I don't remember what particular scene it was, but you were having a conversation with someone else. Your hair was short. And again, I don't understand Spanish, which again, it's one of those things I kicked myself for not learning. And I'm going to, I really should just start learning it -- but just your facial expressions alone, you embodied that character. Like you didn't have to understand Spanish to understand that you were an evil character in that. And it was literally like, what, 20 seconds, 30-second clip. Pilar: Yeah. She was so mean. So nasty. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Pilar: And people would stop me on the street all the time in Colombia. And they would say -- because the name of the show was "Eternamente Manuela," Eternally Manuela," and Manuela was my first cousin. Anne: Would they hate you? Pilar: So they was like, oh my God, they would do two things. They would say, why are you -- they would stop me on the streets. Why so mean to Manuela? Or they would meet me and they'd go, oh, wow. You're really nice. What happened? It was just like, well, I'm playing a character. She was really, really evil. However, when you're playing a character, I never saw her as being evil when I was playing her. I just saw her as being misunderstood. Anne: Okay. Pilar: And so I did an outline for her. I did a backstory for her, where she came from, how she grew up, what were some things that might have brought her to that present moment of when she first steps into the character, into the script that first day. And that really informed what I would do for the rest of the show. Anne: So you weren't thinking like, you're actually playing mean, but -- Pilar: No. Anne: -- because you had such a backstory built up already, it became a reaction. Is that correct? Pilar: Exactly. So this, this came with time because I had time to rehearse before I started the show. So when I'm in the booth, and I've got a script and I'm handed sides at, let's say 5:00 in the afternoon, which is when agents send them generally. And then they're due the next morning. Exactly. And I'm looking at a piece of paper, I'm looking at a piece of paper with words, and that's all there is. There might be a description thrown in and there might be some specs. Anne: There might be a picture if it's a character, right? Pilar: There might be a picture. But generally you're just, it's a piece of paper, and it's not even a piece of paper. It's a bunch of words on a screen. Anne: Right, right. Pilar: So it's my job as an actor to imagine this character. And if I'm talking about anything, I'm talking about commercial, promo, whatever it is that you're given. If you're talking about Folger's Coffee, it's delicious. You have to see and smell that coffee. So let's say you're not Anne Ganguzza, and you hate coffee. Okay? So you have to imagine, okay, so I hate coffee, let's say, and I don't, but let's say I do. And I'm, and I have an audition to do the next day. Well, I have to find something in my memory bank of what I love that resembles coffee. Because if I don't like coffee, I hate the taste of it. Well, maybe I like hot chocolate or I like hot apple cider, so I have to substitute. And I have to imagine, and I have to feel, feel it. I have to taste it. I have to see it. I have to hear it. So I can hear the drip, drip, drip. So using all the senses, that's where the imagination, that's how you can get that character. And you can do that. You know, at the beginning, people will go, oh yeah, well it's acting. And you know, I just sit there and I read the copy, and I get into it. And I read it a few times. Well, absolutely. You read it a few times, but you start sort of clicking on your memory bank to see what you can bring into it. Because when you bring in your memories, I mean, we can, we can do this exercise right now. So what's your favorite food? Anne: Oh, all of it. Probably bread. Pilar: Okay. What's your favorite type of bread? Anne: Italian. Pilar: Be more specific? A Tuscan loaf. Okay. So I want you, okay. Perfect. Artisan Tuscan, loaf from La Brea Bakery. I want you to put yourself in the bakery right now. I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to feel, and I'm in the Tuscan bakery too, even though I've never been there -- Anne: It's warm from the ovens. Pilar: Okay. And so it's warm -- Anne: Because they're baking bread. Pilar: They're baking bread. And it's like, your mouth is starting to salivate. Anne: 'Cause I can smell the bread baking. Pilar: You can smell the bread. And so maybe you ask for the loaf, you get the bread, you get it sliced, right? Anne: And I can see it because it's golden. Pilar: And you can see it. And then you take it home. Anne: It's got a little bit of a crust. Pilar: And you cannot wait. You've decided you need to taste the bread before you leave the store. So what I want you to do is I want you to just talk about the bread that you're eating right now. Anne: Okay. So first of all, I'm going to tell you that I like a dense bread, so -- that has a crispy crust, right? So it's crispy on the outside and it's a little heavy in my hands. Pilar: Stop right there. I want you to say it as you're tasting it. It's crispy the outside. Anne: It's crispy on the outside and it's heavy in my hand. So it's, it's dense. It's got a lot of flavor. Pilar: What does it taste like? Anne: Heaven. It tastes like -- well, I need to have butter on it. So I put butter on it. It's just, it's got, it's got, oh, it's got, it's salty. It's it's even, even sweet to me. Pilar: Okay. And see what you just did there? You just gave that little paragraph a whole bunch of different flavors and colors because you were experiencing it as you were saying it. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Pilar: So that's what we have to do with every piece of copy. Anne: And now I'm hungry. Pilar: I am too. I'm like I'm in that Tuscan bakery. Anne: But wait, I just want to say this is for everything. I want to reiterate that we're talking about acting for every genre. You know, people think that e-learning and corporate narration and telephony, you don't have a character. Oh my gosh. Yes. You absolutely have to have a character as well. It may not be as dynamic maybe or as emotional because it depends on the experience that you're in. Right? I think if you're going to be taught a lesson from a teacher, the teacher's not necessarily going to be sad and crying or emotional in that sense, or if you're doing a corporate narration, right? You're in a professional environment. So you may or may not have a wide range of emotions, but you'll absolutely have nuanced emotions and those emotions, right, and the acting, you absolutely have to have those nuances because you're not just reading the words that puts you in the scene and it makes you believable. Pilar: Absolutely, Anne. I will go one step further because it is actually to a person who works for State Farm, it is that important. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: You approach every piece of copy as it is appropriate to the genre that you're talking about. So let's say through the commercial, when he EF Hutton talks, people listen. And it was so effective because people were sitting there, they were talking and, and then the scene was that everybody was talking and then that person stopped. The voiceover would say it and then it stopped. And so you knew that that was the EF Hutton commercial. So that can register in your voice. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: If you are thinking -- 'cause it doesn't matter whether it's bread or it's a video game character or it's Charles Schwab. Anne: Right. Pilar: It's really all about what you put into it. So if you're doing a commercial about Charles Schwab, you're dressed in a business suit. You're sitting in your, and there's a whole bunch of investment bankers. If you don't know what it is, you look it up. That's what YouTube is for. Anne: Oh my gosh. Yes. Pilar: YouTube is such a great resource. Anne: You to take that minute, take that minute and Google, for goodness' sake. Pilar: Go look up the product, go to ispot TV, go listen, go, go get your feet immersed in it, go see the competition, see what they're doing. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: It doesn't take more than five, ten minutes. Anne: It really doesn't. You know what? It amazes me Pilar that there are so many people that just, they rush to get so many auditions done in a day. And yet they don't take a minute to really research the product, the brand, the company, whatever it is, right? For the most part, doing that little extra work really, really helps you in just upping your game and taking it to a whole new. Pilar: Absolutely. Because here's the thing. Whether or not you get selected, because obviously the odds, you know, there's so many people auditioning at once for one role. To me, it's more important to have a well-crafted audition, that I stopped and thought about it. I don't have to spend hours on it. No. But when I play it back and I go away for a minute and I, let's say, go get a cup of water, and then I come back and I listen to it again. Is it something that I can be proud of? Or am I just sending it in? Because I waited until the last minute, and I did it and I just have to get it in before the deadline? So you want it to be as real as possible so that the person listening on the other end will go, oh, okay. I can't use her, but she's got a great voice, because that has happened to me. You know, over the past -- Anne: Or you can tell, well, she can act. I think there's a lot of that when they're listening to the audition, we may not get that gig, but you will absolutely prove yourself that you are an actor. Pilar: Well, and here's something that's really important to know is that the casting director gets a whole bunch of voices together from the agents and then sends it off to the client. And then it's the client, the copywriter who makes the decision. But really and truly, when the casting director, since they listen to every audition, they're going to be hearing your voice over and over and over again. So if you're presenting good auditions, there is a situation, even though there are certain people who make the decisions, the casting director is also lobbying for people that he or she is saying, oh, that's really good. I really liked that. So that's why it's also so important that care is taken when you present something because an audition is not just an audition. And audition is like, is a little one act play. It's a 30-second or it's a 15-second one act play with the beginning, middle, and end. And to treat it any less than that is doing yourself a disservice. Anne: So let me ask you a question. So when you get casting specs, are you following the casting specs? Because I've heard both sides of the coin here, follow the casting specs, or really just bring yourself to the party and bring your own uniqueness. So what's your plan?What is your strategy when you get an audition? Pilar: That's such a loaded question, and I've heard it answered in so many different ways. I do look at the specs. I know people who say, don't look at the specs until the end. Don't pay attention. Other people say, follow the specs. You have to read whatever the casting director is sending you via the agent because they're sending it specifically so you take stock. And I know one specific casting director who's like people, read the spec, I'm tailor making it so guys don't miss any little detail of what the client wants. This person said it. They were like, I'm giving you all these breadcrumbs, go ahead and use them. That said, it's not like you're chained to do it exactly. Anne: Right. Pilar: Because they're looking for your interpretation of it. Anne: Yeah, your unique spin. Pilar: I mean, at the beginning, and I know so many people listening on this podcast have I'm sure gotten Sigourney Weaver, sound like Emma Stone. Anne: Yup. Yup. Pilar: Scarlett Johansson. I mean every, you know, all day long, you get all these sound like, and what they're looking for is not an -- I used to, I used to fall into the trap, as I'm sure many people have when I first started seeing those names, as I would run and look at her and try to almost copy their voices. Anne: Right. Pilar: And that's not what they're looking for. They're looking for an attitude. Anne: Yeah, or an emotion. Pilar: What's your point of view? Yeah. But what's your point of view? Who are you talking to? Because if I'm looking at somebody, and we're back in the bakery on La Brea, and I'm looking at the sales person and I'm saying, can I get some bread? And 'cause I'm just having a good day and or maybe I haven't had anything and I'm like, can I get some bread, because I have to go take a pill with my -- and I have to get bread. So, and so it's like -- Anne: Or the pill's stuck in your throat and you need the bread to push it down. Pilar: Can I get some bread? Anne: That happens to me all the -- I need, I need a cracker or I need a bread -- need a piece of bread. Pilar: Right, exactly. So it's all in how you, what is your attitude? Who are you speaking to?What's your point of view while you're saying this piece of copy? Anne: It's so, so important. And it's funny because you and I may experience completely different genres during our days. Right? I do a lot of corporate. I do a lot of e-learning. I do a lot of telephony, but yet I also am always thinking about who I am, who I'm talking to, and putting myself in a scene because that emotion or that nuanced emotion is everything. It is everything. It is what takes a voice actor from simply reading the words to being immersed and making a believable and authentic. And I can't express enough people just say, they just read it and they read it in a melody that they think it should sound like, right? Oh, I've heard it on television like this, or, oh, I've, I've heard it in a video like this, but I'm like, no, you are not the person that's going to mimic any of that. And as a matter of fact, if you get the job, like I'm trying to train you what it takes to get the job. Right? And then when you get the job, then you can be directed as to however the client wants it. But I think you have to prove your acting first. And that I think it comes down to really, I think, the emotion and the point of view that you're talking about, which is everything. Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. I would hazard that to say that long-form, something like e-learning, it's almost more important. Anne: Oh my God. Yes. Absolutely. Pilar: Because you have to think about, who's listening to this on the other end. So if I'm going to be doing this, you know, straight kind of a thing, then, you know, once upon a time there was a little... and then, and my range doesn't change or [singsong] my range is changing like this, and it's always like this, you're going to drive the person on the other end crazy. Anne: Exactly. Pilar: So you are telling a story, no matter what genre -- Anne: No matter what you're doing. Pilar: Yeah. And you have to always tell a the story. Anne: You have to pull attention. Pilar: Absolutely. Anne: The longer it is, I think the harder it is. Pilar: I agree. Anne: And I think the more dry the material, the harder you have to be in that scene, you have to be that character so that you can hold their attention. I mean, there's so many other things vying for our attention. And that is absolutely. I think so, so important for us to understand that acting is, is everything. It really is, acting as everything in terms of, I believe being successful in your voiceover career. So let me ask you a question. What are the differences that you've experienced in, let's say, stage acting or on-camera acting and voice acting. What are the major differences that you have to account for? Pilar: Okay. Stage acting. Well, first of all, you're projecting because you have to reach the last person, the last seat in the theater. Anne: Yeah, and we don't have to do that in our studios. Pilar: No, you don't have to do that. Film acting is very close. It's very concentrated. Anne: Well, plus you have somebody to kind of, if you're in a scene with somebody, right, you have somebody else to play off of. Pilar: Yeah, absolutely. Anne: And that's a big -- Pilar: Not always, not always -- Anne: No? Okay. Pilar: -- but at least you -- yeah, well, because a lot of the times, if you're, if you're doing, if they're doing a closeup of you, sometimes the other actor will, will be there, but sometimes they won't be. And it'll just be a stand-in. So a lot of the times you have to use your imagination. Voiceover though, you generally never have anybody to bounce off of. Anne: Right. That's where your imagination takes, right? Pilar: That's why you have to use imagination. Anne: Yeah, you have to have a lot of it because you have no, you have no audience. Pilar: And also I think something that's so important that people don't realize that I discovered actually many, many years ago when I was working, when I first started working in television, I remember a cameraman, because you know, they work long, long hours. And he once said to me, he said, everything that comes through there, we can see what you're doing because the camera never lies. Anne: Oh yeah. Pilar: He said it in such a way. And I was -- Anne: That makes so much sense. Pilar: And it was just so interesting to me because I thought, wow, they've always got, you know, their eyes trained on you when the cameras aren't rolling, 'cause they're setting up the shot. So there is a truth that you have to present. Otherwise, if you are quote, unquote acting, it's going to show because the camera picks up everything, and the microphone is the same thing. Anne: You know, it's funny because if you do the parallel thinking and whenever I watch television or a movie right away, I immediately say, oh my God, I don't believe that. I don't believe that character. And it's rare that I see it because most of the time, if it's released for television or movies, you've got a credible actor behind it. But if you ever have that experience where you're not believing the character, it is so obvious. And yet I don't think people think about that when they're doing voiceover, right? They think it just has to sound a particular way, and that will make it believable. But in reality, if somebody is listening on the other end, right, and they have a keen sense of believability, I think people always know. They may not be able to put their finger on it as to why it's not believable, but they will be able to tell that it's not believable. And it sounds just like, hey, it's an announcer. You know, that kind of thing. But I think in reality, we all have to strive for that believability factor first because when you can get there, regardless of the copy -- I mean not every piece of copy is Pulitzer prize, winning material, right? I mean, that's where our jobs come in to make it a story, make it our story and to bring that story to the table and make it believable. And if we can't, it's, it's obvious to the ear. Maybe not our own ears, but it's obvious to the person listening that has a vested interest. And if you cannot engage with that listener, then they don't have to engage with you. Right? They don't have to listen to you. Pilar: Exactly. Or if it's a casting director or -- Anne: Exactly. Pilar: -- they're listening to your there'll be just, okay, next. Anne: Exactly. Next. Pilar: We're done. You know, what I've heard over the past two years now, every single casting director says, we listen to every audition. What they don't say is how long they listened to it. So I've been told that literally six seconds in, sometimes it's less. If they don't hear the truth, they just go onto the next audition. They do not listen to the whole thing. Anne: And you know what, that makes me even more resolute in the fact that your very first words out of your mouth for that audition or for whatever it is, you have to already have been in the scene. And it has to have been a reaction to something. Pilar: You're responding. Anne: Yeah. You're responding. And that melody, if you want to break it down into melodies, if you're musical, is completely different than simply starting a word, like welcome, you know, I mean, that's like, oh, that was just, I read the word welcome, but it would sound completely different if I was actually welcoming you at the door. And it would sound completely different. Pilar: Or you could be welcoming into an airplane. Anne: Exactly, exactly. Pilar: Or welcoming into a car or welcoming into a school. It's going to be completely different because we are -- Anne: Wherever you are. Pilar: Yeah, exactly. Anne: I think that's every time for my genre is, you know, when it's welcome or introducing or any of those words, right, it's hard to make them sound authentic, believable. Right? We don't always, we're not always saying welcome, you know, in our everyday life, but you've got to make it sound like it's a greeting, and that you are genuinely happy to see that person. So that becomes a challenge for people. So you've got to step into that scene and figure out what is that scene before you even start talking? I think that's, that's so important. Pilar: And I think it's also important, probably one of the most important things is to have a lead-in which you're not going to put on the audition necessarily, unless they're asking for improv, but that you're having a conversation. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Pilar: You're having a conversation before you start speaking. Anne: Yep. That helps for sure. Pilar: It's like, when you're going, when you're rolling into the scene, it's not like you just kind of get up and start. You're already in there. You're already talking about it. And then you can just flow right into the words. Anne: Absolutely. Pilar: It's so much harder when you're like, oh, okay, you see the line going. And it's like, okay, now we have to start talking. That's not real. Anne: This is the beginning. Pilar: Right? Exactly. Anne: It's like, no. Pilar: So if you say, if you say, oh, I'm here, I'm in front of a whole bunch of people and they're really, really excited. And this is going to be a really great day. And the sun is shining -- Anne: Welcome. This is just the beginning. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I love that. Yeah. Welcome. Wow. Good stuff, Pilar. I could talk acting all day. We can talk acting all day. I think that was -- thanks so much for those nuggets of wisdom. I absolutely think our BOSSes are going to appreciate those. You guys, I am going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL that allows us to connect like BOSSes. You guys can find out more at ipdtl.com. Pilar, It's been amazing as usual. And I thank you for being with us. Pilar: Glad to be here again. Anne: Yeah. You guys, have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. Bye. Pilar: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

There is nothing more human than storytelling. In this bonus Voice & Ai episode, Anne is joined by award-winning voice actor Emily Lawrence, Co-Founder of The Professional Audiobook Narrators' Association. They discuss the financial vs. social implications of Ai voices, creating a community for audiobook narrators, and why human-ness is an essential part of storytelling… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast for another episode of the AI and voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring special guest Emily Lawrence to the show. Emily is an award-winning actor and writer that's narrated more than 425 audiobooks for publishers such as McMillan, Harper Collins, Penguin, Random House, Simon and Schuster, and many more. She's incredibly proud to be the co-founder and chair of the newly formed Professional Audiobook Narrators Association, or PANA, as everybody has come to know it. Her greatest loves are storytelling and reading of course. So narrating audiobooks is a dream come true for her. And her other passions include traveling, LARPing, aerial surf, fostering kittens, and chocolate. So I have a lot to talk to you about because I love cats. We know that. I have three of them. And so I just love the fact that you foster kittens. Emily: I do. Anne: And thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Emily: Well, thank you for having me. Anne: Yes. Emily: Happy to be here. Anne: So in addition to the kitties, um, I need to ask you for a more complete description. I have never heard of this, but that might not be a surprise. LARPing. Emily: A-ha. Anne: For those BOSSes in the audience that may not be familiar with that, what is that? Emily: Uh, so LARPing stands for live action role play, and it's the nerdiest thing you've never heard of. Anne: I kinda love that. Emily: Um, so basically it's like -- people tend to be more familiar with Dungeons and Dragons, so it's basically like that, which is a kind of like you're role-playing out a video game kind of, only in Dungeons and Dragons, you sit around a table, and you talk about everything you're doing and you like roll dice to simulate fighting and whatever. And in LARPing, you actually role-play everything. So it's like a bunch of nerds in a park with like foam weapons. Anne: I love it. Emily: Fighting each other. Anne: I love it. That's great. Well, look, hey, the nerdier, the better as far as I'm concerned. Emily: Yeah, no, I love it. Anne: That's fantastic. So again, it's great to get to know the you behind the association that has been newly formed. How old is PANA now? Emily: Uh, well we opened to members, I think it was October 21st or -- Anne: Wow. Emily: -- thereabouts. Anne: Fantastic. So tell me, you know, I'm very excited to hear about this because I think it's probably about time, right, in the audiobook world, that there is an association that is vested in the interests of the community. Talk to me about that. Emily: Yeah. Well, I mean, there have been other organizations such as the Audio Publishers Association, which really represents publishers. Anne: Right. Emily: But narrators and other people in the industry can be members. And then obviously there's SAG-AFTRA which represents narrators as a labor union, but SAG-AFTRA also represents everybody else. Anne: Sure. Emily: So there was no organization that really was dedicated to narrators specifically. And I think you're right. It was about time and long overdue. Anne: So, I know that there's a lot involved in creating an organization. Tell me a little bit about that story and how did that begin? I mean, what was -- were there issues that were coming up in the audiobook world that you were saying, you know what, we need an organization to really take care of our community? Emily: Yeah. There have been talks for many years of -- among narrators of feeling unrepresented in various places and in various ways. And then obviously with the rising danger, I guess, or whatever of AI, I certainly felt like, okay, somebody has to do something. And so earlier this year, there were a lot of conversations in Narrator, Facebook, and other groups just kind of like that made me feel like, okay, we need to organize. We need to come together. And so I did that. Anne: And have a voice. I love that. Well, hey, it's one thing to talk, right, to sit around in groups and talk. I have so much respect for the fact that you pulled something together. I mean, there's a lot of work involved in that. Emily: Yeah. It was definitely a lot of work. I am very grateful to have my co-founder Emily Ellet with me through the whole process. And so we kind of started talking like about what this would be and how the community needs it. And then we just kind of did it. Anne: Well, I -- Emily: Here we are. Anne: You know, I love it. I was looking at your website, which for those BOSSes out there that want to check them out, it is pronarrators.org. I love your statement on who we are. I just think that your mission statement is providing opportunities for raising awareness of the narrator within public consciousness. And you have so many wonderful things that represent that this organization is going to be doing for narrators. Tell me a little bit about the initiatives for those things. Emily: Sure. Well, we're certainly very ambitious. We have a lot of really big plans, mostly around three things really. One is education, education both of narrators in order to raise narration standards throughout the industry, but also education of the public, and education in the industry about narrator needs and the fact that we exist because -- Anne: Sure. Emily: -- a lot of people listen to audiobooks and don't give a second thought to the performer who's bringing that story to life for them. And that's obviously important to us that, especially when you're talking about having humans versus robot narrators, you know, for people to recognize that we're human to begin with is probably really important there. So education in general is a big focus for us. Uh, we also have a focus on advocacy, which is kind of our umbrella term for all of the things that we want to do to help our industry thrive with human narrators as part of the mix, and the changes that we would like to see in order to help make that happen. And then the last one would be just community, fostering a community. As I kind of pointed out before, there was no organization that really represented narrators specifically, and only -- and we have a really wonderful, giving community. I mean, honestly, the narrator community is some of the most wonderful, friendly, open, supportive people I've ever met. You know, for a bunch of people who are essentially competitors, we're all so supportive of each other. We all help each other out all the time. And it felt like it would be really wonderful to have an organization that sort of formally recognizes, celebrates, expands, and strengthens that. Anne: So what sort of -- do you have events planned for things that you've -- meetings coming up, events, community outreach, what sorts of things do you have planned for the future? Emily: So we've got lots of plans. Um, everything's just in the beginning stages. We're a member-driven organization. So we operate entirely on volunteer labor. And so our committees have only just started. I mean, they all had their first meeting last month. And so everything is in its infancy. We're just getting started, but we've got big plans for example, community events to get together both in person and online and sort of, you know, build friendships, but also network and things like that. We have plans for an award ceremony that is going to be community-driven and peer-reviewed. So kind of like the Audies, which is our current Oscars essentially meets like the SAG Award. So it will be like a peer-reviewed award show, but that has different sort of categories than typical award shows that really focus in on celebrating our community in a different way, which I think I'm really excited about. Anne: Plans on collaborating or is it a possibility to do any type of collaborative work with the union? Emily: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We've reached out to both the APA and SAG-AFTRA announcing our existence -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- and saying that we would really like to work with them to further our mutual goals, and both of them have responded very positively -- Anne: Excellent. Emily: -- and very supportive. And so we really do look forward to working with existing organizations to move everyone forward. Anne: So in terms of membership, so if I wanted to be a member, are there requirements, are there -- do you vet your members? What's involved if I wanted to become a member? Emily: Sure. Anne: Because I personally don't do audiobooks and don't hold that against me. I -- just not in my genre, but I know so many people that are just so passionate about the craft of audiobooks and narrating. So if I wanted to be a member, could I, or what is the process? Emily: So members are -- you're eligible for membership if you have recorded at least one audiobook -- Anne: Okay. Emily: -- that is available on some sort of commercial platform. Anne: Okay. Emily: So it's a very low, you know, if you've narrated one book, you can join. There's dues that have to pay, but then you're a voting member. Anne: Okay, great. Emily: If you do not qualify for a membership, we also are creating sponsorship tiers. So we'll have sponsorship tiers -- Anne: Okay. Emily: -- for -- Anne: Nice. Emily: -- other people in the industry like directors, proofers, editors, et cetera. And those are not ready yet, but once they are, there'll be sort of different ways to support the industry and get benefits and like access to events and things like that for doing stuff. Anne: Got it. Are you an official nonprofit organization? Emily: Okay. So we are operating as a nonprofit. We cannot apply for our nonprofit status until we file our first tax return. Anne: Got it. Emily: So -- Anne: Got -- well, I know that it's an involved thing, which is one of the reasons why -- I've, I've served on the boards of many nonprofits. So I know how involved it can be, which is again, why I have a lot of respect for you taking the initiative to put this together for the community. There's so much work involved in nonprofit, and I know how important volunteers and volunteer efforts go. It's so hard when everybody is busy to take the time and be able to help out in an organization like this. And I really look forward to the success of PANA because I know a lot of organizations that start off with the best of hopes. And then it turns into something where it is an awful lot of work and maybe more work than people anticipate. And so I know how it can be hard to progress. Emily: Well, it's definitely more work than I anticipated. Anne: Yup. Emily: I'm committed. So I'm there. And I know my co-founder Emily Ellet is also very committed, and we have a wonderful board. We've put together a board of some of the most respected -- Anne: Oh yes. Emily: -- people in our industry, and they are all very committed also. Everyone has expressed a sort of surprised at how much work it really is. Anne: Right, yeah. Emily: But, um, you know, everybody has affirmed to me multiple times, as recently as yesterday, that like, you know, we're in this and we're going to make this work. Anne: Well, I think having a voice for the audiobook industry is so important, especially with things that develop within our own industry. I mean, not just in audiobooks, but in the voiceover industry as a whole, we are facing changes, and I've known this because I've done my AI and voice series for at least 30 episodes now. So there are things that are, you know, impending and coming into this industry that we as professionals need to understand, and I don't know, evolve or work with or not, or form an educated strategy in order to co-exist, let's say, with them. So I will talk about the AI elephant in the room, which is AI. And what are your thoughts? I know that it's, it's scary for a lot of us that this technology is coming. And so what is your position on behalf of PANA in regards to let's say the evolution of AI and AI narrators? Emily: Well, we are a pro-narrator organization, pro-human narrator. Anne: Sure. Emily: And so we are dedicated to supporting human narrators however we can. We have a lot of ideas about how to address this, but I think the board has expressed our first priority to be education, because I think that a lot of narrators don't really understand all of the possible risks right now. I think it's wonderful that you're doing this, you know, you're, series to educate people. Um, but I think that we have a task ahead of us just to make sure that people fully understand -- Anne: yeah. Emily: -- what everything is. Like -- Anne: Sure. Emily: -- for example, a lot of people don't understand the difference between creating an artificial voice, like a clone of someone, and machine learning, which I don't know if you've covered in your series, but that's a really big thing that people need to be aware of. Anne: Yeah. Emily: So we have a lot of ideas about how to address that first and foremost, but also I think, you know, a lot of people -- just today I was seeing on Facebook, people posting like, oh, I listened to this, and it's actually not that terrible and blah, blah, blah. And so I think that it's important that we stay ahead of the game. You know, we can't let the robots catch up to us. We have to stay better. But also I think that, I mean, for me personally, this is not like PANA's official position or anything, but me personally, I think that a lot of the conversation is revolving around like dollars and cents. You know, publishers and whoever are going to do what makes the most economic sense to them. And if it's cheaper, consumers will follow suit. And there's just, it's kind of all about money and jobs and the things that general AI conversations are about. Anne: Yeah. Emily: But I think that with our field, it's not only about our jobs, it's also about the art of storytelling. Anne: Sure. Emily: Something that -- Anne: Agreed. Emily: -- I mean verbal storytelling is as old as language. It's like, we've been doing it as humans for forever. And that's, I mean, to me, that's what's at stake here. Like, yes, I would like to have a job. I would like to be able to do what I love to do for the rest of my life. But I'm equally as worried about, you know, the power of literature and stories and what it means to have, you know, just from like a moral, ethical standpoint to have robots sharing the human experience that they literally can't understand because they're an algorithm. And so I think that that is something that needs to be more part of the conversation for everyone, because what we do is an art. Anne: Sure, absolutely. Emily: And even if a robot is possible, it can never actually express anything human. And I think that that's important to me. Anne: Right. I agree with you. And I think that the consuming public has a lot to say, obviously, right? We are a market-driven kind of industry. What the consumer wants, right, or is it marketable to consumers or is it not? I mean, do consumers want to be able to listen to an audiobook and have a human? Like, is it meaningful to have a human or maybe for certain types of audiobooks, does it matter if it's a human or not? There's so many questions about that. Is there any type of book that you feel might be okay with something that's not human? Emily: Um, no, personally I don't because -- Anne: Well, and that makes complete sense. Emily: I mean, sure. I mean, obviously I have a certain point of view, but I think, you know, a lot of people are saying, oh, well, it's more suited for non-fiction. I think that that's kind of insulting, like -- Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: -- yes non-fiction does not involve character voices and things like that. Anne: Right. Emily: So from that perspective, it's easier for a robot to do, but I don't know, I've narrated nonfiction too. It's every bit as human. I think that authors would generally be insulted to hear that like, nonfiction is less human than fiction. I mean, I think it's all part of the human experience. Anne: Sure. Emily: It's all part of something that human beings have spent hours or months or years putting together. And they deserve a human voice to express that. Anne: Well, and you're talking to, you know, my specialty corporate narration and e-learning, so I understand that completely. I mean, to me, I mean, I want there to be a human teacher behind the mic. Emily: Sure. Anne: I want there to be, you know, I'm a company, I want there to be a human that's expressing my mission statement or my objective. And again, it comes to people responding and saying, well, you know, it's what the market wants. Or I guess for me, if I'm just one little person, me, I'm not going to necessarily stop the progression of technology. And so in terms of how I need to, I guess, evolve or work with technology that's, that may be encroaching on, let's say genres that I, you know, specialize in, I have to try to think of it in terms of, okay. So are there certain types that might be okay? A lot of times, you know, it's like, why do consumers go to outlets like the -- Fiverr, right, to get their voiceover? Because they don't have a value necessarily, or they don't -- Emily: Sure. Anne: -- or they have a certain value associated with that job. So could this not be the future lower end of -- Emily: Yeah. Lower budget production -- Anne: -- consumer -- yeah, lower budget. Emily: I mean, look, there are already people who are driven by money, you know -- Anne: Yup, yup. Emily: -- want the cheapest product, and they're hiring brand new narrators on indie platforms -- Anne: Yup. Emily: -- for like a quarter of the standard rate -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- or less, you know? Like those people already exist. Will those people start doing robots instead? Anne: Yeah. Emily: Maybe. Anne: Yeah. Emily: You know, who can stop that? Anne: Yeah, exactly. Emily: But I think yes, that is a concern because the more artificially narrated audiobooks that are put in the market, the more consumers get used to it, the harder it is -- Anne: Yeah. Emily: -- to argue our position. Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Emily: It's all concerning. I do agree that there's a certain element that I don't know how much control we have, but I also think that there will always be an element of high budget productions -- Anne: Yes. Emily: -- that will always have a human narrator. Anne: Oh, I completely agree with you. I mean, I don't think that there's ever going to be -- and I'm a tech girl. I worked in technology for 20 years. I do believe that there's always, there's always going to be a place for the human still in voiceover. And I think that narrators that have been for years, you know, telling stories and audiobooks, I mean, that is a level of acting that cannot be reached right now by any type of AI voice. Emily: Oh no. Anne: And I don't know that the public wants -- Emily: No. Anne: -- to be, necessarily feel like they've been duped either. Emily: Sure. Anne: So if they're listening to an audiobook, and they think it might be a human, so I think it's all speculation right now trying to figure out how -- like how long will it take? How far will it go and how human will it sound? And I guess my argument has always been well, humans are developing it. So I think you will always have those people that want to take it to the point where, oh my gosh, is this a deepfake? They'll always try to get there. But I like to think that technology is good inherently, and that because humans are developing technology, it will develop to a point that will help humans and not necessarily take them down or, you know, erase an industry. So I do believe that there will always be a space for a human actor in voiceover. I just don't know how far the AI will go in five to ten years, let's say,. Emily: Sure. But I will say that -- okay. So the way that these algorithms work, right, is that they find the middle ground, right? So they'll always be passible. They'll never be award worthy. Right? They're never going to take acting risks. They're never going to be able to, I mean, unless they have an engineer sit there and like tweak them for every moment, at which case, like just have a voice actor do it. Anne: Well, yeah. Sometimes there is a lot of tweaking involved, that's for sure. Emily: Yeah. So it's like, they'll just, they'll never be able to cry. You know, they'll never really be able to make a listener cry or feel that connected because they're not connected. You know, they're an algorithm. So they'll make the baseline choice, the easy, safe choice, because that's, you know, when you're talking about machine learning or it's studying thousands and thousands and thousands of performances, no two narrators are the same. We wouldn't make the same choices on the same book. So they're going to pick the baseline, which I think means that it will never be as good, no matter what, inherently it'll never be as good as the best narrators. So that's why we need to make all narrators, or at least narrators who want to make a living doing this, the best that they can be, because I don't think machines can ever really, truly catch up with anything that is off the cusp and beautiful and you know, like human, and they'll never be that. Anne: What if -- now here's my what if, because I do know of technology called speech-to speech where it can mimic. So what about an actor who, you know, has great acting skills, and they can act a baseline model, right? And then other voices can be applied on top of that. I mean, it's scary. I've heard it. Emily: Basically have a human narrate the book, but then put someone else's voice on their performance? Anne: Yeah, that is a mimic. So that would make it sound pretty much human, but with somebody else's voice or maybe with a different language. Emily: Well, I mean, if you're doing that, at least that actor is getting paid to do it -- Anne: Right. Emily: -- because they'd have to custom record that book. Anne: Exactly. Emily: Um, so that's, uh, a less scary proposition to me. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: But um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's a possibility. I think the -- what we're more concerned about or most concerned about anyway, is machine learning, which will completely replace humans entirely. So like right now, most of the AI voices are licensed, where it's basically like they have somebody sit in a studio for a few days, and then from there they extrapolate whatever texts they want to be able to put on that person's habits. But machine learning would be like, they can listen to the thousand most popular in audiobooks and narrators of all time and sort of create an algorithm based out of that. Anne: Yes. Emily: And they'll never have to license. They'll never have to pay a single human for that. I think that's the biggest fear is completely taking us out of the equation. I think when it comes to licensing your voice or what you just mentioned, where it's like you record the book and then they put some celebrity's voice on it or something, I mean, personally, I am against those things. But I can see why some people might feel like there's more wiggle room in those. Again, that is not my personal opinion. I want to stop all of this, nip this on the bud. But if we're at a point where it's like, that's all that's left to us, at least there are still humans involved. Anne: Yeah. Well, and I think, again, if we're thinking about how we can evolve with it, if, if that becomes part of it, and I do know that that technology exists. I don't know at this point -- you've got people, you've got other companies that are not voiceover that are creating this technology. So how can we work with those companies or do we choose not to work with those companies right, in order to -- Emily: Sure. Anne: -- stay ahead, right? Is that a possibility? Emily: Um, okay. My personal feeling is I don't support anyone doing that because, and I have more to say, but like, because I feel like that's just kind of giving in. It's, you know, you get a sum of money, which is enough for a few years, and you're basically giving up your whole career in trade, and the careers of all of your colleagues, because how many of those, how many people's voices are they really going to need to license? So ultimately, and I understand that everyone's situation is different and, you know, I shouldn't judge, but ultimately it's a very self-serving decision to do that. And so I personally, and this is my personal opinion, don't feel like I can support those things. However, if someone's going to do it, I think there's a lot of important ways to protect yourself and to protect others in the industry. So I know that our union is working on licensing agreements that would be union. As far as I know, every one of these that I've heard of or seen advertisements for or whatever is non-union. And there's a reason for that. It's because they're taking advantage of people who are vulnerable. Anne: Sure. Emily: And they're taking advantage of people who need the money and who think, oh my gosh, a year's salary for a few days in the booth? Of course, I'm going to do that. Not realizing or not thinking through the consequences. You know, there's a reason that they don't want these contracts to be union because the union would want to, for example, limit how many times that person's voice can be used. Can they make a hundred audiobooks from that person's voice versus a thousand or a million from the same person's voice? You know, they're going to try to put limits on it to make it more equitable and spread it out. And these companies don't want to do that. There was no advantage to them for doing that. And then there's other things like, well, I've talked a bunch about machine learning, which if people don't know, I really highly recommend looking into it. But if you license your voice, and there's no provision in your contract which says that they can't use that for machine learning, they can take that voice and not only use it for clone or whatever, but they can use it to create a totally synthetic voice that they'll never have to pay anyone a dime for. You know, there's a lot of risks, and that's part of why we want to do an educational series is if you're going to do this, which I personally strongly recommend and hope that you won't, but if you will, please at least be smart about it. You know, there are companies involved like, you know, Google and whatever that have really deep pockets, and they can offer the kind of money that a lot of people would have a really hard time turning down. But you also have to remember that there's a lot more at stake here than your wallet or even your career. Um, so we just, if you're going to do it, you have to be smart about it and you have to read those contracts with a fine tooth comb. Anne: So I totally, totally understand all of that. Absolutely. What about the possibility of, as an organization, having a voice and going to these companies and saying -- I want to say it's like in the video gaming industry, when musicians would create music for video games, fighting for their creative licensing rights. What about that sort of thing? Like, and I understand, I mean, Google and you know that a lot of the big companies have a lot of voices already, not even voice actors, right? Just voices -- Emily: Right, yeah. Anne: -- that they're using to learn, right. They're using to put into machine learning and learn and test and create other voices. If as an organization, you could be a strong voice in saying, hey, you know what, anybody's voice that's used really you should be asking permission. There should be compensation. There should be -- Emily: Right. Anne: -- you know -- Emily: We should be getting royalties. Anne: Right, exactly. Emily: You know, like with any contract, you should have a limited period of time -- Anne: Exactly. Emily: -- where you can -- Anne: Exactly. Emily: You can't license in perpetuity, you should get six months or whatever, you know, like, I totally agree. That's part of why, if these contracts are going to happen, they should be union. Anne: Yeah. Emily: And that's why they don't -- they don't want to give us that, they don't. Um, they just want to give us a sum of money that is like an absolute fraction of what we would deserve for doing that kind of work. Anne: I have spoken with some companies who say that they are not those companies. You know, they say that they are for -- Emily: Well, of course they say -- Anne: Well, okay. But that's the thing though, is that, do you assume that all companies are not ethical? You know what I mean, in this game? Emily: I think honestly, I think any company doing this nonunion and not offering the protections and the compensation that any actor doing this deserves it, I don't think that's ethical. This is my personal opinion. I'm not speaking for PANA. Anne: Oh, no, no. Emily: I don't think it's ethical to offer a desperate actor a year salary and have their voice in perpetuity to use -- Anne: I agree. Emily: -- for whatever you want. You know? Anne: I agree with that. And I totally agree with that. And I think that that is absolutely where voice actors need to, you know, they need to be aware of these things that, you know, these companies that are for TTS. For me, that's a big red flag. And if you have a contract or you have a company that wants to pay you for, you know, 3000 lines of whatever, I absolutely believe that you should have a lawyer on that. Um, I say I would not take the job. However, if you go to these AI companies, I'm going to say independently and, you know, and try to work with them, or if there's an organization that can be on a board -- there is an organization right now that is working towards policies and legal contracts that will be in protection of the voice acting community. So I feel like there could be power in that as well. Emily: Sure. Anne: And especially from the audiobook narrators industry as well, because you guys are a -- you're a large community, and you have strong voices, and you work closely with the union. And I think that that is a wonderful thing. And I think that if you can get in on the ground floor of those usage policies, which everybody should have, right? And then, you know, ultimately, you know, fight the good fight hopefully so that the companies now understand, because I think in my research, I'm just going to say, there's a lot of AI companies out there that don't understand the voice acting industry. They don't understand like I actually had to say, no, there's usage. There's -- Emily: Right. Anne: -- you know, there's usage here for how long. And we have contracts that, you know, we can't use our voice for this company, because we're already committed to this company. Emily: Sure. Anne: And there's a lot of education, not just for us, but -- Emily: But for them. Anne: -- on their side as well. And I think that if you have a strong community of voices, that might be something to consider. Like you said, education, maybe education for AI companies as well. Emily: Sure. I -- Anne: Yeah. Emily: -- I would certainly be open to that. Anne: Yeah. Emily: And another one that we haven't mentioned, but that is definitely a concern, at least for me, would be having some sort of limitations on the content that they -- Anne: Yes, absolutely. Emily: -- could use voices for. Anne: Yup, yup. Emily: Like for example, you know, I'm, I'm Jewish. Anne: Yup. Emily: I would be horrified if my voice was used to narrate Nazi propaganda. Anne: Yup. Emily: You know, like that's just -- so I think any, any contract that is like in perpetuity with no limitations is unethical to me -- Anne: Yup. Emily: -- because that's just not how it should work. Anne: Oh yeah. Emily: Am I -- Anne: I agree. Emily: Am I open to working with AI companies to create a more equitable compensation system? Personally I think that that's SAG-AFTRA's job. If I ever hear of an AI company actually having union agreements with SAG-AFTRA, I would feel more kindly towards that AI company. I have yet to hear of that. I would potentially be open to that kind of effort, but honestly, I feel like that's putting the cart before the horse. I don't think we should give up the fight yet. I think we have enough good arguments and resources on our side to not necessarily have to get to that point yet. Anne: Okay. Well, I think that you've definitely got some strong arguments there, and I, I have also been in the forums and I hear what people say, and I understand. I myself have done so much research, probably a little bit more with the companies maybe than others, which is the only reason I bring up the point that there are companies who say that they are ethical and say that they will, you know, your license or your voice belongs to you. It's licensed to you. We will not use it in our machine learning, right? Only with your permission and only if you are compensated fairly, so. Emily: I mean, that's good. Good on those companies. Anne: Yeah. Well, I'm hoping that more companies will, with things, you know, with the unfortunate, but actually now fortunate episode that happened to -- maybe not fortunate. I don't know if I would call it that, but that happened with Bev Standing, right, with her suit against TikTok and the fact that it got settled, it does set a precedent. And so it's unfortunate sometimes that bad things have to happen in order for, right, resulting policies and standards and laws to come into play. You know, the whole thing with the Anthony Bourdain movie, right? Why resurrecting a voice without the permission? I think that there are bad things that happen. However, good things can come out of it afterwards in order to build laws. And I think that that's kind of where we might be in this crazy world of AI. And it seems like AI has just sprung up in the last couple of years like crazy. Emily: Sure. Anne: So I do believe after my research, for me, I think it comes to educating the companies, the AI companies about us and about what we need and about what our rights should be as actors. And I, I'm hoping that my involvement in this podcast is going to also have a voice that can help affect that. And so that they will see that we do need to license our voice. We do need to be fairly compensated. And, you know, I can only hope that my little part in it has something to do with maybe getting things the way that would be fair and equitable to us. Emily: Sure. I mean, I hope that, I hope that your efforts are successful. I do think that, I would like to think that these companies are just unaware or something. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: And I'm sure some of them are, but I also think that some of them are very clever. Anne: Yeah, of course. Emily: And I know there are, for example, I can think of certain companies in the audiobook world who say, well, we won't -- they are clever in the way that they deceive people. You know, they'll say, well, we're not using our data to clone your voice, but they won't say that they're not using the data for machine learning or other things, you know? Like, and I think that, because I think that if we could get companies to do union contracts, that would certainly order it, you know, equivalent. That would certainly be a step forward. But I also think that educating voice actors to understand all of this stuff -- because it is complicated -- Anne: Sure. Emily: - and it's not necessarily natural to a lot of people. I think that's important too, because like right now there are companies where we're -- actors and publishers are literally giving data to and not really recognizing how it could be used. Anne: Agreed, agreed. Emily: And so that's a problem. Anne: I think we always have though, you know what I mean? I'm going to say long before this AI craziness, I think also, you know, there have been devices that have been listening to us and capturing our voices for a long time now. Emily: Sure. Anne: And so it's, I think it's good that we all are educated on it. And I just wanna give a shout-out to the organization, which I'm a part of, and anybody, if you're interested in joining them, it's called the Open Voice Network, which is based on creating standards for anything voice. And there are some companies who create AI voices that are in this organization, but it's all for the good of the voiceover world as well, to make sure that we are fairly compensated and hopefully, you know, we have a set of standards that can work for everyone. So that's openvoicenetwork.org. Maybe that's something that, you know, uh, BOSSes out there, you want to take a look at. I love, love, love what you're doing with PANA. I mean, thank you really. It's, I know how hard it is to bring an organization up and get these things going and moving and being productive. So congratulations to you guys. I think it's an amazing thing you're doing for the audiobook community, and I think it's wonderful what you're doing. Emily: Thank you. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Emily: Appreciate that. Anne: So tell us how people can find out more about your organization and you? Emily: Sure. Uh, pronarrators.org is our website. We are @pronarrators on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and I'm Emily Lawrence. And you can find me at emilylawrence.com. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Emily, for spending time with us today. BOSSes, go check out pronarrators.org. Thanks again so much for joining us. I'm going to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS. Find out more ipdtl.com, and we'll see you guys next week. Thanks so much. Bye! Emily: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.