As a voice actor, you are often given the power (and burden) of setting your own rates. Now, where to begin? Anne & Pilar have been through taking low paying gigs, walking away from jobs, and even getting their way in financial negotiations. It all comes down to knowing your worth. Tune in to learn how to navigate price setting, negotiating with clients, finding strength in community, and getting paid as much as you are worth like a #VOBOSS.
Transcript
>> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.
Pilar: Hola, BOSS Voces. Bienvenidos al podcast con Anne Ganguzza y Pilar Uribe.
Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and with me today is very, very special guest cohost Pilar Uribe. Pilar!
Pilar: Aloha.
Anne: Hello, how are you?
Pilar: I'm doing great today. And how are you doing?
Anne: I am doing good. I'm doing really good. Except, ugh, I had a client that I had to let go the other day.
Pilar: Why?
Anne: Well, it was a new client that we were in a negotiation phase, and they wanted to kind of lowball me on a job. And it just turned out that what they wanted to pay, what their budget was, just did not align with where I am. And I was really standing tall and standing by what I'm worth. And I think that's a very valuable lesson that we should talk about for the BOSSes today is to know your worth. It is so very important. It's so hard to say no, to walk away from a client. Like it's terrifying I think for anybody starting out in the industry, right, to give up on an opportunity, especially when you felt like, well, I'm just getting started. I need the experience.
Pilar: I wish I had known you when I was getting started, because I can't tell you how many times that happened to me. And it's interesting that you bring this up, Anne, because a lot of the times when we are starting out or let's say, you know, we've worked -- I did a lot of dubbing where the rates were standardized in Miami.
Anne: So you didn't negotiate it. They were just, this is what we're paying you.
Pilar: Exactly. So it's like, take it or leave it. And I was like, okay. But I think that voice actors sometimes think that there's something wrong with them because they don't know how to negotiate. And I think it's so important because this is such an industry where there is no standard set of -- there is a standard set of rates, yes, for the industry, but everybody offers a different price. So it really is up to you, the voice actor to figure out what it is that you are worth and to know how to negotiate. And so it's a skill that's learned. You may go into it, not knowing how to negotiate, but that doesn't make you any less of a voice actor. It's just, it's, it's a skill that has to be learned and it takes time. It's not something that happens immediately.
Anne: It does. I think it's a skill that takes a little bit of practice. And I think you just have to be courageous. You have to be brave. And first of all, I want to just separate out, if you have an agent, the agent's job is to negotiate on your behalf, which is amazing. I love my agents who negotiate on my behalf. That's what they do. They get the work and then they negotiate the best price for us. And they're looking out for our best interests, hopefully for the most part, right? They're looking out for us getting the best price for who we are so they know what we're worth.
So think about it. If you're put in a position where you are negotiating, and this job may not have come through an agent and you're got somebody that's inquiring on your website, I'd like to use your voice for this particular job, how much, that's where you have to stand firm in understanding that you are worthy of a fair market price, and a great place to go find out a baseline of rates is of course the GVAA, right? Who doesn't love the GVAA rate guide. There's also Gravy for the Brain. They have some good international rates there and SAG-AFTRA too.
Pilar: SAG by the Numbers is the website. And I think that going to those different places gives you a gauge. So that will give you the confidence to be able to say, okay, this is how much I can command. Instead of taking the number out of a hat or allowing somebody to steam roll you.
Anne: Yeah. It gives you a baseline. And I think too, the first time you say no, and then you're terrified, right, when you say no, or you walk away, and you're like, oh my gosh, I'll never get work in this town again. Because I've either made an assumption that is too large of a number, and everybody's laughing at me now because they're like, no, I can't pay that number -- that is part of the negotiation game, really. And you have to know that even if you're a beginner, you deserve as much as I do. I think we all deserve as much as the next person in terms of rates. Because there's so many new performers or new businesses, new voiceover artists that come to the game and say, well, I don't have the experience.
You're not being hired for your experience. As a matter of fact, you're being hired for your voice and your performance. And your voice is just as worthy as my voice. So don't feel as though you cannot charge the same rate as I can. And I'm a big proponent of that because if you're not, and you're trying to undercut because you either feel you're not worthy, or maybe you just want to get the job, that doesn't do any favors to the industry either, bidding low. Because in reality, it's a market perception. I want to always bring it back to lipsticks or shoes. I have certain brands that I love, and I spend money for those brands. Let's say, maybe not lipstick or shoes, but yes, hair, but let's maybe talk tech, right? My Apple computer, my Apple iPhone. I buy brands and I pay the money. I pay the money.
And so think of your voiceover business, the same way. I used to call myself Tiffany's. I don't go on sale. And I don't advertise my brand to be cheap. So anybody out here, you can do the very same. Now I'm not going to price myself out of, you know, I'm not going to be crazy high or anything, but that's where the rate guides come in handy. Right? You get a good baseline, and you take the chance to negotiate with a client. And most of the time, the best question that you can ask for this when you're starting in negotiation is do you have a budget? Okay? So if you're putting the position where they're asking you, how much would it cost? The best question to ask is, do you have a budget? Because sometimes their budget is a whole lot more than you thought. Um, that's happened to me multiple times. Well, I can't go over a $1000. Okay. I'll take that for a two-minute medical narration read. That's awesome. Yeah. I think I can make that work. That's what I've been known to say.
And so it's a rule in negotiation that the person who mentions money first is usually the one that loses. So, so, there you go. So always have the question in the back of your head to ask if there is a budget. And then after that, if there is no budget, then go ahead and bid high or on the higher side of the range. Usually the rate guides, right, if you've looked at them, have ranges. Like a five minute corporate read could be $350 to $550 or whatever that is. Bid on the higher end. Because when you're starting a negotiation start high, because then the only place to go is not necessarily higher. Client's not going to say, oh no, let me pay you $800 instead of $500. Usually they're going to negotiate down. So pick the higher number that doesn't price you out of the competition like crazy and stand true to that. Because honestly, Apple doesn't care about, do you know what I mean? They're like your new iPhone is $2,000 or whatever it is, right? It's the price is that. And we choose to accept it or not. And so you as a business, same kind of thing.
Pilar: Yeah. 'Cause it's like, when you go in and you buy a dress, and they tell you it's $100 or $500, you're not going to go and say, oh, can I buy $50 for the sleeve? No.
Anne: Can I haggle that price? You might be able to haggle the price in some places, but not most stores that are retail.
Pilar: Generally it's like, they're not going to sit there and give you half a dress because you're not going to --
Anne: At a garage sale maybe.
Pilar: Maybe.
Anne: Or consignment. You can negotiate those things down, but --
Pilar: We can start a trend, sleeves, just buying the sleeves. Yeah. But that's generally not going to happen.
Anne: I'll take just the sleeve, please.
Pilar: Exactly. Something, I think that's important though to mention is knowing your worth, yes, but also knowing your worth as to where you are and not trying to oversell yourself because I've seen this happen over and over where somebody throws out a number and then it turns out that they don't have a professional recording studio, for example. So there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I know, I do know people who've actually worked with their USB mics. Great. So you need to be able to show your potential client, this is my studio. This is what my studio looks like. This is what my noise floor is. This is what my software is, everything. And then that way they know what they're dealing with instead of sort of projecting something that might not be true.
Anne: I agree. But I feel that before you're in that position, right, before you're in the position of actually negotiating a job, you're going to make sure, hopefully, that you have a studio that can create great audio. But I totally agree with you there. If you're just starting out and you haven't had anybody evaluate that, that's one thing I think that's important, especially now, since the pandemic. We're all expected to have a quality space where we can generate great audio from. So yeah. Very important. Very important for you guys to know that.
And yeah, you're right. There's that argument that demos don't necessarily showcase what your sound is like from the booth. I've actually known people to put sound files on their website. Here's what my booth sounds like, as kind of a precursor. And I actually think that's not a bad idea. I don't have it on my own website right now, but I actually thought about, here's a noise floor or here's a, here's a quick sample from my booth so you know what you're getting.
Pilar: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to show who you are, because just like when you walk into a store, you're seeing what the ground is like, the arrangement of the clothing, and the register, is the floor clean. So you want to be able to, since you are projecting a business out onto the world stage of voiceover, because you don't know who it's going to be reaching, you know, you want to have your office in order. And then that, that makes it just that much easier to be able to negotiate and to stand up for yourself.
Anne: The presentation of a professional. I love that. Because they want to know that they're dealing with a business, right, that takes it seriously. Gosh, that brings up a whole other whole other side of things. So too like your website, right, you should have a domain name that is yourbusiness.com, anneganguzza.com. And that storefront should absolutely showcase who you are to the world professionally. A lot of times when I go to buy a product, right, online -- isn't that what we do all the time?
Pilar: We Google people, we Google the product.
Anne: We go to the website, we look at the -- if the website looks any kind of cheesy at all or not trustworthy, I don't buy. And so that's such a great thing that you brought up for people to understand that that helps so much in your negotiation, that you are representing yourself as a professional business. And I think it does help also in the negotiation process if, if you're known to be a full-time voice talent. If you're not, you don't necessarily have to state that. You just have to look like this is your business, and this is what you do. Sometimes I'll, if a customer's or a potential client is reaching out to me, I might throw in there full-time voice talent, just so they know that's all I do. Like I'm not, you know, doing three different jobs, and this is my business and this is how I make a living. So that's a -- what a great point that was, Pilar to present professional.
Pilar: Yeah. You have to present yourself as a professional because otherwise, you know, you're not going to be taken seriously. You reminded me of when I was in my agent's office for the first time, and they were sweet as can be. And one of them was busy, and she was like, you know, don't pay attention to me because I've got all this stuff to do. Obviously she had a huge job that she had to get out at a certain time. And the only thing she said at the end, she piped up and she said, oh, we've looked at your website. We've listened to all of your material.
Anne: Oh, don't you worry.
Pilar: And I was like -- and it was just so interesting, 'cause I was like, oh, these people did their homework. So if somebody's looking at your stuff, believe me, they are checking you out regardless of --
Anne: Whether you know it or not.
Pilar: Whether you know, but also it's, it's also a question of it doesn't have to be the fanciest thing or it doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles, just like a voiceover booth doesn't have to have all the bells and whistles. The important part is are you producing sound quality where you can literally hear where it's so quiet that you don't even hear a fish fart? I mean, I know of, I know this one very well known voice actor who does promos inside his car, and he is just fixed it so he's got the microphone, he does it in a certain way because a lot of the times he's driving, and he needs to do something.
Anne: But yeah, he's not going to audition while he's driving. Just, just, just want to --
Pilar: No, no --
Anne: Just want to say that.
Pilar: -- obviously, no he stops on the side of the road. He's out here and he'll have something from New York that's due at a certain time. He will stop on the side of the road. He's got his whole little preparation. I don't know what he does, but he's got a whole preparation. He does it. He sends it off. The promo gets aired that night. So it's really about, can you, you know, can you come up with the goods, and the goods are showing yourself, as you know, as I've been saying --
Anne: As a professional.
Pilar: -- as a professional, this is, this is what my space is. This is where you can find my work. It's all here. It's all out on the table. It's, it'll be really easy to find. So you can hire me, and you can negotiate with me because I have all these parts of the puzzle.
Anne: All the parts of the puzzle are together. Yeah. That -- absolutely. It's such a cool side piece that you don't think about, right, when you're talking about knowing your worth. I mean, understanding that you're prepared to deliver quality, audio quality performance from a quality storefront or booth, right? And also I am going to go so far as to say that your website says a lot about who you are professionally. And that has a lot to do with the power you can have in negotiation and also helping yourself know your worth. If you yourself are committed to doing this for a living and making money at it, then that is step one of knowing that you are worthy of getting paid for it and getting paid well for it, getting paid fairly. We can only hope that every job we do, we get paid well.
And I will tell you, in the beginning, when I first started out in the industry, I didn't have a concept of what my worth was. And to be honest, there wasn't, you know, so long ago that there weren't many groups out there online. Again, this, one of the reasons why I created VO Peeps back in the day was to have a community online that we could talk and say, well, what did you charge? How do you handle negotiation? What is this job worth? And so now we have so many resources available at our fingertips. It only just says to me even more that we have to even more be vigilant about understanding who we are, what we're worth in this industry.
And not that we even have to convince, but just showcase that we are worthy of getting paid something that's more than, oh my gosh, something like 8 cents a word. No, not at all. Those jobs exist. And those are the ones that you don't necessarily -- for me, I try not to align myself with jobs like that because if the client doesn't value the service, right, to begin with, and they're putting out budgets that don't value the service -- maybe they truly don't have the budget. But again, I think a budget is all in what you, all in what you make of it, right? I pay good money for certain services so that I can depend on them. And the same thing should be thought of you, right?
So if your potential client doesn't value the service that you provide, then maybe you don't want to align yourself with them or work with them because trust me, there will be somebody out there that does value you and the courage that it takes for you to say no to those clients that don't value your services -- once you say no, it gives you the biggest sense of -- well, you're scared and you're terrified, but it allows the door to open for people who do value your services and that leaves the room for them to come in and pay you what you're worth.
So I can't tell you -- you'll do it one time. And then that door will open and you will get paid by someone who believes in you and values your worth. And then that will give you all the confidence you need to go and just negotiate and understand your worth and put out those prices, put out those quotes that are worthy of your time, because you spent a lot of money. You spent a lot of time to get to where you are. There's training, there's demos, there's practice, there's you, your personal investment is what people are paying for, right? Your personal investment. And that is worth something.
Pilar: Absolutely. I totally agree. Something also that I have found when I used to negotiate back in Miami, is that no doesn't always mean no forever.
Anne: Yeah.
Pilar: Because there's a way to stand your ground because a lot of things can happen between the time that a number's thrown out and you walk away. And I've had that happen to me more than once where I don't necessarily say, I'm not going to take any less. I say, this is my price.
Anne: Yup.
Pilar: And I've learned that from some amazing voiceover people in the industry when I was very, very green and I went to my first couple of conferences. I learned from them that they stand their ground basically. And they just, they stand up for themselves and they say, this is what I charge. And they're very, very specific. And there is room, there is wiggle room, and it is very important to throw out a decent number and not too low, but obviously not out of the range, but when you're in that negotiating stage, I've actually had people come back and say, okay, all right, let's do it.
Anne: Yeah. I agree.
Pilar: So it's just kind of funny. So it's just, maybe there's also a mental sort of attitude to have about that saying this is who I'm worth. So you're not necessarily closing the door, but basically saying, here, I invite you to partake of my services for this amount. Again, it doesn't happen always, but sometimes there's a door that can stay open.
Anne: Sure, absolutely. I totally agree with that. And people might have gone and they had a budget that was lower. And so they went and hired somebody with that lower budget and they weren't as happy. Right? So they come back to you, and that has happened to me multiple times too. And again, it's one of those things where you have to have the confidence, and guys, if you're just starting out and you don't have the confidence, it's okay. We all were there. We were all there once. Right?
You just have to take the step. You've got to have the courage to take the step, to stand by what you're worth and walk away if the client doesn't bite. And, and the thing of it is too, usually the clients that are offering a lower price are usually the ones that will nickel and dime you for everything. And I have run into that. I have lowered my price. You know, I've worked with a client's budget. I -- here's my number. We negotiated. And they said, I only have this. And I thought, okay, all right, I'll work with you. And it might've been lower than I would have wanted. At some point you get an idea, a sense of who this client will be.
Sometimes clients will just, if they get that low ball price, they're just going to be painful. They're going to be painful clients that will want everything for no money. And you only have to work with a couple of those, like maybe one of them once. And you'll be like, okay, never again, never again, because the amount of time that you spent trying to please that client at that low rate could be better spent working with a client who did value you or does value you and doesn't try to nickel and dime you for a bunch of pickups afterwards.
Pilar: You have to know when to walk away. Absolutely. But it's also an attitude that I think is so important. As we've been saying throughout this time, this is what I'm worth, here I am. When you walk into a, an Apple store, you know exactly what you're getting into.
Anne: Apple doesn't go on sale, right?
Pilar: Exactly. It's like, what you see is what you get.
Anne: Chanel lipstick does not go on sale. I'm just saying, I am just saying, I have bought Chanel lipstick before. They do not go on sale. And the funny thing is, is in a way, it makes me relieved because I feel like sometimes when things do go on sale all the time, I'm like, oh my God, let me wait until the right price comes. But Chanel, they're just, I know they're dependable. I love them. They've got my colors. They last, and they're worth the money. And so think of that client hiring you. It's going to be, you know what, Anne, whatever, can you do this job? Sure. Give me an invoice. I love clients like that because that means that you've worked with them enough. They trust you. And they're just like, okay, whatever. They know they're going to get good value from you. And so it is something to be said to work with quality clients, rather than trying to just work your way up.
And as I mentioned, I really, in the beginning I did, I didn't know better, but now BOSSes, we can't be the only podcast or the only people who have said know your worth. However, this is just another step where if you've listened to this podcast, you have to know your worth. You have no excuses now to take something that does not pay you what you are worth. And maybe you need the experience of working with a client who may not pay you what you think you're worth. And that's okay, because that's a learning and a growing experience for you. But we're here to tell you that you don't really have to go through that if you don't want to, because you, you are worthy, you are worthy of a fair price.
Pilar: Yeah. I think it's really important to visualize yourself as a --
Anne: Yes.
Pilar: Just because we are a voiceover, we are a brick and mortar store. We just do it from our own area. But why not visualize yourself as an Apple versus a --
Anne: Tiffany's, Apple, Chanel.
Pilar: Yeah, exactly. You don't have to be a 7-11. I mean, 7-11 is great when you're, when you want a Slurpee, but why not visualize yourself as, as you know, this is who I am and this is what I have to offer?
Anne: That's so important. I got so excited because you said visualize that you are worthy or manifest.
Pilar: Yes.
Anne: It's so important, manifest that you are worthy of it. And that will carry you really far, that whole belief and the manifestation that you are worthy of it will carry you really far in this industry. I just had to agree with you wholeheartedly.
Pilar: And also that you are a working actor.
Anne: Yes.
Pilar: That you are a working voiceover actor capable of taking these jobs. I think that people think that when they visualize -- and you know, we could spend a whole podcast on this -- I think people think that when they visualize something, that all of a sudden it's just going to magically like [snaps], like that. That is not what happens when you see yourself and you present yourself. You put it out into the universe; it's not necessarily going to come back immediately, but it does come back. Because if you had told me over 12 years ago that I would be making a living doing voiceover --
Anne: Oh my gosh.
Pilar: -- I would have said, are you kidding? There's no way. I'm an actor. I've done on camera. And I love this business. I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, seeing myself do this. And so there really is something to be said. It does take patience though.
Anne: Yeah.
Pilar: So, you know, you, you can get there and you can see yourself taking those steps. And once you're there, you can accept it. You can say, yep, it's done. It's done. And you just, what we're saying about knowing your worth is just that much closer to what it is that you want to accomplish.
Anne: Yep. Yep. That successful business. And that's so funny. Like think of when you first started in this business. Did you ever believe -- like when I first started, I didn't really have a thought one way or the other. I just knew that I was passionate about it, and I just kept putting my head down and working. However, I will tell you in the beginning, it was a very different environment because coming from a corporate background, which I came from, you know, where that paycheck was given to me every two weeks or whatever, and I knew that money was coming -- coming into the entrepreneurship, and now all of a sudden being put in a position where I had to negotiate, my price was, oh my goodness.
Like before people told me what I was worth, because I got a paycheck for it. Now it was me there to determine what was my worth. It's so interesting to go from the mentality of here, I've arranged a salary, and I work for this particular salary, and that's what I'm worth, to an environment and an entrepreneurship where I am determining what is my worth. That's a whole big pedagogical shift in your brain. And so yes, it takes time to learn how to do that. And it's okay guys. Just remember, there's always clients out there. I think if you make a choice, and you're brave, and you walk away from one client, there's always another client around the corner that opens the door for more clients and more work. You just have to manifest, and believe, and take that leap of faith.
Pilar: Something definitely that you can learn to do.
Anne: Good stuff, good stuff. Wow. So BOSSes, know your worth. You are worthy. So on that note, if you also want to make a difference and use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world, that will give back to the communities that are close to you, you can find out more and how to do that at 100voiceswhocare.org to commit. Wonderful, wonderful new sponsor. BOSSes, literally it takes less than a dollar a day, and you can make a humongous difference in a local organization of your choice. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. Also, thank you so much to our amazing sponsor ipDTL, because I get to talk to Pilar every week, and we get to talk about really cool things about how wonderful you guys all are and how we are worthy. We are worthy. Much, much support, and thanks to ipdtl.com. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have a great week and we'll see you next week. Bye!
Pilar: Goodbye, guys.
>> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.