Getting Unstuck – Cultivating Curiosity

Spencer Seim, an artisan fly tier and guide based in Taos, New Mexico, shares his passion for fly fishing as a meditative practice and a means of connection to nature. He reflects on his journey from Texas to the Rockies and discusses the importance of humility and adaptability on the water. Spencer emphasizes the value of failure as a teacher, conservation efforts to protect public lands, and unique parenting lessons inspired by his experiences fishing. He also delves into the fascinating world of salmon flies and the thoughtful craftsmanship behind tying them.

Dr. Karen Sobel-Lojeski, a leading researcher and author on the Virtual Distance framework, explores the complexities of how technology shapes human connection. She defines virtual distance and its impacts on trust and collaboration, especially in remote settings. Discussing AI, she warns against anthropomorphizing it, highlighting its negative effects on memory and creativity in education. Dr. Sobel-Lojeski emphasizes the importance of teaching children balanced tech use and shares her initiative to protect their social bonds while thoughtfully integrating technology.

Guest Jodi Scott is a purpose-driven business leader and entrepreneur passionate about bridging the gap between natural wellness and modern innovation. As the co-founder of Green Goo, she's helped pioneer plant-based alternatives in categories traditionally dominated by synthetics, from first aid to personal care. With a background in science, sales, and sustainability, Jodi brings a fresh perspective to how businesses can grow with integrity, lead with empathy, and stay true to their mission even in fast-changing industries. Summary In this episode, Jeff speaks with Jodi Scott, co-founder of Green Goo, a family-run company that produces plant-based first-aid and wellness products. The conversation traces Green Goo's origins from her sister's early herbalism experiments to a thriving business built around natural healing and sustainability. Jodi shares how her family's blend of skills—her sister's herbology, her mother's tech entrepreneurship, and her own background in health psychology—converged to create a purpose-driven company focused on high-efficacy, natural alternatives to chemical-laden over-the-counter products. She explains the rigorous process behind Green Goo's product formulation, including the FDA's growing recognition of botanical ingredients and the company's commitment to transparent labeling. Beyond product development, Jodi highlights the deeper values that guide the company: spreading goodness, supporting community, and cultivating trust among consumers skeptical of plant-based efficacy. The heart of the conversation comes when Jodi recounts selling the company to a seemingly aligned partner—only to watch it collapse after the buyer's scandal. Forced to lay off her family and staff, she describes the emotional devastation and eventual resilience that followed as they fought to buy the company back. That experience reshaped her understanding of resilience—not as relentless grit, but as the ability to pause, get present, and move forward with clarity. Now, with Green Goo reborn and expanded into a broader wellness portfolio, Jodi continues to advocate for purpose-driven leadership and mindful living, encouraging others to "keep showing up" even when the path is uncertain. The Essential Point Jodi's essential message is that resilience isn't about endless drive—it's about presence, reflection, and finding purpose even amid loss. Her journey with Green Goo shows how values and mindfulness can sustain both people and businesses through profound challenges. Social Media www.greengoo.com | www.southernbutter.com | www.ovamoon.com | www.fambotanicals.com

Guest Dennis and Ali Pitocco lead 360° Nation, a global media platform dedicated to uplifting humanity. For over 15 years, the couple has focused on showcasing humanity's best aspects and driving positive change. Their philosophy emphasizes presence, belonging, and compassionate service, allocating resources for the greater good. They believe in the power of media to benefit society, employing a purpose-driven "for good" vs. for-profit business model that highlights the human potential for creativity, compassion, and collaboration. Summary In this episode, Dennis and Ali reflect on their 500-mile walk along the Camino de Santiago, a six-week pilgrimage through northern Spain that became one of the most profound experiences of their lives. Initially drawn to the Camino less for its religious tradition than for its potential as a reflective journey, the couple sought quiet, connection, and space away from the noise of everyday life. Along the way, they discovered what they call a "symphony of silence"—a meditative calm in which layers of distraction and obligation fell away, revealing a more profound sense of self and purpose. Dennis describes how walking each day with nothing but their thoughts and nature's rhythms stripped away life's "varnish," exposing what truly matters: authenticity, relationships, and wonder. Upon returning home, he and Ali found themselves changed. Dennis reached out to each of his siblings, determined to cultivate genuine, not transactional, relationships—an impulse he attributes directly to the Camino. They also wrote the book we occasionally dip into during this episode to record for themselves and inspire others to approach the Camino as a journey of introspection rather than endurance. The conversation touches on lessons about slowing down, embracing simplicity, and rekindling awe in the everyday. For Dennis, the Camino became a metaphor for life—an act of "unbecoming" all that is false so one can return to one's most authentic self. As he puts it, "Pain is temporary, but the accomplishment of doing it lives with you forever." The Essential Point The Camino taught Dennis that transformation often comes through subtraction—not adding more, but shedding distractions and illusions to rediscover authenticity, connection, and the quiet beauty of being fully present. Social Media LINKTREE

Guest Christopher Schaberg, PhD., is the Director of Public Scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis, as well as a founding editor of Object Lessons, a book series on the secret lives of ordinary things. Chris is the author of ten books, including one really good one on fly-fishing. Summary In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris reflects on curiosity, confusion, and the value of paying attention to small things. He begins by adapting Norman Maclean's line from A River Runs Through It—"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." by suggesting that "confusion" or "mystery" runs through his own life and work—a reminder that lingering in uncertainty can be a fertile state for creativity and learning. Chris also discusses his fascination with airports, where he once worked, and how those complex spaces became both a professional subject and metaphor for human experience. He also explores his "Object Lessons" book series, which celebrates the hidden lives of ordinary things, and his broader intellectual project of focusing on the small, the local, and the limited—an intentional counterbalance to a culture obsessed with scale, speed, and expansion. This theme carries through his writing on fly fishing, Adventure: An Argument for Limits, and Little Data, all of which urge closer attention to what's near, tangible, and often overlooked. As director of public scholarship, Chris works to help academics communicate their research clearly and meaningfully to general audiences, fostering what he sees as a moral imperative for universities: to re-engage with the public in accessible, authentic ways. He and I also reflect on teaching, the challenges of student preparation, and the evolving role of curiosity in an AI-driven age. Chris closes by describing fly fishing not as an escape but as a way to recenter attention and rediscover connection—with nature, with others, and with himself. The Essential Point Chris's essential insight is that confusion and uncertainty are not obstacles but opportunities—spaces where curiosity deepens, learning expands, and meaningful connections between art, scholarship, and everyday life emerge. "The best essays leave you more puzzled about a topic in a constructive way. It's okay to be confused—linger there." Social Media https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-schaberg-812923282/

Guest Lyle Kirtman has been a leadership development consultant for more than 30 years. As CEO, of Future Management Systems Inc., he has worked on developing leaders to increase results for students in 500 school districts in 15 states. Kirtman's focus on innovation in education is a key element of his presentations, keynotes, and publications. His field-based research has already made major contributions to the educational leadership arena through his "7 Competencies for High Performing Leaders," the use of leadership assessments for self-reflection and hiring, and the importance of getting a "C" in compliance to increase focus on results for student achievement. He is the author and co-author of numerous books, including Leadership and Teams: The Missing Piece of the Educational Reform Puzzle and Shaping the Future: Four Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, which we discuss in this episode. Lyle earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from the State University of New York (SUNY) and a master's degree in counseling with a concentration in career development from SUNY and Fairfield University, Connecticut. Why This Episode Matters Lyle Kirtman's new book, Shaping the Future for Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, aims to help educational leaders cultivate a positive results culture through four essential pivots. Identify a clear North Star that defines student success. Develop a new approach for hiring, developing, and retaining all staff (shifting from instructional leader to talent leader). Implement a system where employees self-assess their progress toward enabling student success. Establish and commit to high expectations for all students and staff. Kirtman argues that educational leaders lack a 21st-century "North Star" for student success, which is often narrowly defined by high-stakes test scores. He redefines "results" as the essential skills and competencies students need to be successful in life, beyond just academics. These include skills like critical thinking, resilience, and adaptability. Social Media www.futuremsi.com Twitter (X): @FutureManageme3

Guest When I sat down with Brew Moscarello, founder of Trico Unlimited, a Vermont-based fly fishing guiding and instruction service, it was clear that his story is about more than guiding—it's about a lifelong relationship with the outdoors. Drawn to Vermont by both snowboarding and fly fishing, Brew found himself immersed in the mountains and rivers that continue to inspire him today. His journey eventually led him into the Orvis organization, where he has turned his passion for the water into a vocation—while still maintaining a deep connection to the slopes. Summary Brew's approach goes beyond technical instruction—he emphasizes presence, patience, and the Zen-like qualities of being on the river. For Brew, guiding is as much about teaching and creating memorable experiences as it is about catching fish. He differentiates himself by leveraging his decades of experience on the Battenkill River, his deep ties to landowners and the community, and a strong instructional style tailored to each client's needs. Conservation and education are central to his mission, from working with the Battenkill Watershed Alliance to coaching a new high school fly-fishing club. Ultimately, Brew sees fly fishing as a way to connect people with nature, themselves, and each other, creating moments of joy, focus, and gratitude that extend far beyond the catch. The Key Takeaway Brew's fly fishing and guiding practice is less about catching fish and more about cultivating presence, patience, and connection with nature and others. Developing respect for the sport, the environment, and education is at the heart of what he does. Social Media Trico Unlimited, 4022 VT-313, Arlington, VT 05250 Brew Moscarello brew@tricounlimited.com (802) 379-2005

Guest Sam Sochet is a retired high school principal who currently works as an educational mentor, coach, consultant, and community speaker. He has been a member of the Syosset, NY, Library Board of Trustees since 2020 and currently serves as its Vice President. Sam taught and led schools for over 3 decades, which culminated in his work at Martin Van Buren High School, transforming it from a school on the brink of NY State Receivership and closure, to a thriving destination school for families in Eastern Queens. Sam's ability to utilize data analysis and community and civic involvement nearly doubled the graduation rate. As a result, Sam was named New York City High School Principal of the Year in 2019. Sam is currently running for the position of Oyster Bay, NY, Town Supervisor. Summary Sam Sochet shares lessons from transforming a struggling school, highlighting the significance of community, empowering teachers, and preparing students for flexible futures—while reflecting on the changing purpose of education and his new role in public service. The takeaway We must reimagine K–12 education, starting at the local community level, so that schooling goes beyond the traditional acquisition of content and test scores, focusing instead on preparing adaptable, collaborative, critical thinkers who can thrive in an uncertain future. Social Media LinkedIn

Guest Rebecca Winthrop is a leading global authority on education, the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings, and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. She is dedicated to ensuring that every child has the opportunity to thrive in life, work, and as an engaged citizen. She leads cutting-edge research and initiatives aimed at transforming education systems around the world to better support children's learning and development. Rebecca is a trusted advisor to both school communities and national and international organizations. Her expertise is sought by many, including parent networks, schools, district education leaders, the White House, the United Nations, and Fortune 500 companies. Rebecca's work is centered on developing and advocating for evidence-based strategies that bring people together—families, educators, policymakers, and companies—to help children maximize their potential. She is the co-author with Jenny Anderson of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better. She holds a PhD from Columbia University's Teachers College, an MA from its School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA from Swarthmore College. Summary Jeff and Rebecca explore how schools' outdated designs hinder student agency and engagement. They unpack the four "disengagement modes," highlight practices that foster curiosity and autonomy, and stress the role of families, teachers, and systemic reform in helping students become lifelong, self-directed learners. Key Takeaways Outdated Structures vs. Agency: Schools were built for compliance, not curiosity—modern learning must cultivate student agency and exploration. Four Modes of Engagement: Students move among Passenger, Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer engagement modes. Pathways Forward: Family collaboration, autonomy-supportive teaching, and project-based learning help students thrive and connect knowledge to real life. Social Media Instagram: @drrebeccawinthrop TikTok: @drrebeccawinthrop LinkedIn: Rebecca Winthrop

Guest None today; just me reflecting. Summary In this episode, I reflect on lessons I've drawn from Robert Redford's film adaptation of A River Runs Through It and how they support my growth as a writer. At first, I loved the film for its beauty, but as a writer, I later returned to it as an instructional tool: how to go beyond the surface story of familial love to convey Maclean's more profound meaning. The scene where Norman Maclean's father insists he cut his drafts in half taught me that "thrift" is about essence, not just length. Like Norman, I struggle in my early drafts to move past surface storytelling and uncover what I am truly trying to say. With encouragement from my writing coach, Cindy House, and insights from writing instructor Jeannine Ouillette, I've learned to revise until I reach "aboutness"—the story's heart that sits between the story's plot and its themes. For me, digging deeper means discovering not just what happens, but what emotions I'm feeling that I want my readers to feel. The Bob Ross painting I refer to in the essay. Related Media In Episode 240 of the podcast, "Teaching—The River That Runs Through A Life," I speak with John Dietsch, who choreographed all the fly fishing scenes in the film. Watch the scene where young Norman learns to write. Watch the emotional last scene in the film. Read this beautifully constructed review of Norman's teaching and writing. For a related and highly informative podcast, listen to April Vokey's interview with Rebecca McCarthy, who wrote an intimate portrait of Norman.