The Resilient Recruiter

Would you be apprehensive about adding a recruitment bot in your hiring process at the risk of losing the ‘human’ factor? Our special guest, Betsy Robinson, explains how they utilize AI trends and other tech stacks to enhance their client and candidate experience. Betsy Robinson is the Founder & CEO of Tier4 Group, a woman-owned, diversity-certified talent acquisition firm headquartered in Atlanta.  The company specializes in connecting exceptional talent with top-tier employers for technology and executive roles, combining advanced recruitment automation with a personalized approach.  Under her leadership, Tier4 Group has achieved remarkable recognition, including six consecutive years on the Inc. 5000 list of fastest-growing companies (2019-2024) and five appearances on the Atlanta Pacesetters list. Episode Outline and Highlights [03:03] Recruiting out of college - beginning of Betsy’s 20-year recruitment journey.[07:05] How she ventured out alone - discussing high points and challenges.[18:31] Fostering a culture of feedback and how it elevates the quality of output.[24:19] Incorporating recruitment automation, technology, and AI.[33:35] Would you include a digital recruiter in hiring your process?[41:15] Betsy reveals their tech stack and AI trends.[47:28] The value of using note-taking AI tools.[51:52] Creating a culture of strong team collaboration. Incorporating a Digital Recruiter in the Hiring ProcessWould you consider incorporating a recruitment ‘bot’ in your hiring process? A lot of recruitment business owners might be apprehensive about doing so, as it poses the risk of diminishing the ‘human touch’ in the process.  On the other hand, Betsy's team is leveraging a "digital employee," specifically a digital recruiter, to enhance their hiring process. This AI-powered recruiter can call and chat with candidates, helping to screen large volumes of applicants more efficiently while maintaining a personalized experience. Unlike traditional chatbots or automated emails, this digital recruiter has a live voice and engages in real conversations, making it feel more human-like. Betsy Robinson Bio and Contact Info Betsy Robinson is the Founder & CEO of Tier4 Group. Headquartered in Atlanta, Tier4 Group is a woman-owned and diversity-certified talent acquisition firm specializing in connecting exceptional talent with top-tier employers seeking to fill technology and executive roles. By combining advanced recruitment automation with a personalized approach, Tier4 strives to identify the best fit for both the customer and the candidate. Tier4 Group has been recognized for six consecutive years (2019-2024) as one of the fastest-growing companies in the nation on the prestigious Inc. 5000 list, as well as being named for a 5th time in 2024 to the Atlanta Pacesetters list of the fastest growing privately-held companies in GA. Additionally, the company is a four-time Bulldog 100 Honoree. The Bulldog 100 recognizes the 100 fastest-growing businesses owned or operated by UGA Alumni.  Betsy was named LGBTQ Businessperson of the Year in Georgia in 2023 and recognized to the inaugural Inc Magazine 30 Under 30-ish list in 2023. She was also named to the Atlanta Business Chronicle’s 40 Under 40 Class of 2019. Betsy holds a B.B.A. from the University of Georgia’s Terry College of Business. She is an active volunteer with Women in Technology (WIT), currently serving on the Board of Directors. Betsy has also served on the Board of Directors for the Technology Association of Georgia’s Diversity & Inclusion Society, as well as the Business Advisory Board for ITT Technical Institute.  Outside of work, Betsy is active in outreach within the community as a volunteer supporting several non-profits. Her most important jobs are as a wife and mom. On weekends, you can find her cheering on her son on the soccer field, boating on the lake, or cheering loudly in the stands for the Atlanta sports team as well as the Georgia Bulldogs. Betsy on LinkedInTier4 Group website linkRetained Executive Search (a division of Tier4) website linkWIT (Women in Technology) website link  Connect with Mark WhitbyGet your FREE 30-minute strategy callMark on LinkedIn, Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitbyMark on FacebookMark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach Subscribe to The Resilient RecruiterIf you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters. 

A 25-year recruiting veteran! Our special guest, Jeff Cox, shares his journey and insights on how he made two transitions to up his recruitment game: From placing junior to senior roles and switching from contingent to retainer model.   These shifts can be challenging, and so it takes the right mindset and preparation for your to have the power to transition. Jeff shared how he did it!   Jeff specializes in assisting biotech and pharmaceutical companies in building transformative leadership teams.    As a member of the prestigious Pinnacle Society, Jeff is one of the top-producing recruiters in the country. But he believes success in this industry is less about the money and more about the people we impact and the life-changing projects we advance.   Episode Outline and Highlights   [02:50] How did Jeff end up in the recruiting industry after aspiring to become an actor? [06:52] Acting as Jeff’s cornerstone in his recruitment approach. [10:42] Success factors contributing to consistent improvement when starting your desk. [18:34] Why being nervous all the time is not necessarily a bad thing. [20:11] Jeff shares his experience working with his father and siblings in the business. [24:48] Transition to placing senior directors, VPs, and C-level executives. [42:36] Insights on the current market and team dynamics and how it can be challenging for [retained searches. [48:34] Switching from contingent to retained search - the power of walking away. [54:35] Going back to the basics amid a big reset in 2025.   What Success Looked Like   What would Jeff consider a success factor in his success as a recruitment business owner? For him, it is no magic ingredient.   “It's just showing up every day and being, you know, you know, like my dad says. We used to say, “Dad, I don't know what to do.” You know, pick up the phone. That's what you do. “Dad, I don't have enough job orders.” Pick up the phone. If you work every day, it works out.”   Jeff emphasized the value of being consistent and showing up every day as a key factor in his longevity and success in the recruiting field. He also shared how his background as an actor helped him learn a lot about being human - which is a key ingredient when building relationships with clients and candidates.    “I mean, I think that's the foundation, of why I'm a good recruiter. Because, you know, the most important thing to do as an actor is to listen. To listen and to live in the moment, you know, not, not to let things get ahead of yourself… I guess also the ability, you know, when you play a lot of different characters, you have to be able to jump into other people's skin. You have to be able to understand.”   On top of the above, he also had the foundation of working in his father’s recruitment firm. This led him to eventually build his desk and the rest is history. Transitioning to Place Executive Senior Roles   Jeff initially worked in lower-level positions such as associates and clinical chemists. When he started his firm, he made two key decisions that positively impacted his revenue.   Making a strategic decision to focus on higher-level positions such as directors, VPs, and C-level executives. Moving from Contingency to Retained search model.   The first item above is not an easy transition. Jeff decided to no longer accept managerial placements but rather focus on executive-level positions. Here are the two takeaways:    Making a Conscious, Strategic Shift – He decided to position himself exclusively for senior director-level and above roles. This meant actively telling the market, "No, I don't work at that level; I only recruit senior executives." By consistently reinforcing this message, he established himself as a specialist in executive recruitment.   Leveraging Long-Term Relationships – Over time, the professionals he had placed in junior roles advanced in their careers, moving into managerial and director positions. He capitalized on these relationships, using his existing network to transition into higher-level placements.   He also had the same mindset when he switched from a contingent to a retained search model. He shared that for him to have the ability to make strong choices such as this decision to switch, he had to ensure that he kept his housekeeping in order. “I made a strategic choice to live within my means. And when I made. When I made these choices, I was like, okay, you've got enough. You've got enough Runway where you can do it.”   Why Going Back to the Basics is Essential in This Market   A key topic that resonates with me is how Jeff deals with the current market difficulty in the pharmaceutical and biotech industries.     “I think the pharmaceutical and biotech industry has had a rough year and there's this balancing act that I'm going through in my brain. Do I go back to contingency when times are tough? Like, like what do you know? What do I do?”    If you can relate to how Jeff felt, I am sure you will appreciate his strong sense of accountability and self-awareness.    “And I, and I have found that I'm not, I'm not doing my job as well as I should. So it's now for me it's a time to get back to the basics. And I think that's what 2025 is. It's getting back to doing the job properly, you know, and, and you know, and I fault myself because I should have known this, but sometimes you don't see it, but really like sitting here now, it's just getting back to the basics. So I'm excited and that's exciting to me. It's like the realization is I gotta go back to the basics. I gotta start hammering out the phone calls and it's exciting.”   Such an admirable mindset!    Jeff Cox Bio & Contact Info   With over 25 years of experience in pharmaceutical recruitment, Jeff has built a career connecting top talent with leading companies. The journey began in 1995 with a first placement made in just 16 days—a milestone that set the stage for decades of success.   Starting with roles such as Clinical Research Associates, Analytical Chemists, and Regulatory Affairs Associates, Jeff steadily progressed to placing Managers, Senior Managers, Associate Directors, and Directors. Today, the focus is on VP-level and executive placements, a natural evolution earned through years of dedication and expertise.   More than just a recruiter, Jeff is a builder—helping biotech and pharmaceutical companies strengthen their leadership teams with experienced professionals who have climbed the ranks step by step. At this level, recruitment goes beyond compensation; it’s about aligning the right people with the right projects to drive innovation and impact.   Jeff on LinkedIn CKR Associates website link Pinnacle Society website link   People and Resources Mentioned   Katherine Jerald on LinkedIn Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In, R.Fisher   Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

Imagine this: being so meticulous in your candidate screening process invites an unexpected face-to-face investigation from Federal Agents. That is what our special guest, Lee Ann Howard, had to go through when starting as a recruiter in her early 20s. The secret to her 'suspicious' expertise? Simply asking the right questions and listening carefully to candidates.   Lee Ann is the visionary Founder of Howard & O'Brien Executive Search. With a keen eye for identifying top talent in senior management roles and a specialization in HR, finance, and sales and marketing functions, Lee Ann stands as a beacon of excellence in the realm of executive search.   You will surely enjoy Lee Ann’s insights on how to build a continuous pipeline of senior management roles for your clients and what it takes to have long-lasting strategic client relationships.   Episode Outline and Highlights 01:18 How Lee Ann left broadcasting to get into recruitment.  05:05 What made Lee Ann stand out in her early years; Her astonishing story of why she had to be investigated by the government because of her recruitment activities. 12:05 Emphasizing learning and development. 20:04 From corporate to executive search - Lee Ann shares her transition.  27:15 Discussion on the board recruiting business model of Howard & O’Brien. 45:48 Lee Ann explains their Conversation with the Board program. 48:38 Discussion on their Reverse Placement program. 51:17 How to cultivate long-term strategic client relationships. 57:30 Making it a family business - how Lee Ann’s children eventually joined her in the business.   Unexpected Government Investigation for Doing a Thorough Job Lee Ann shared an astonishing story about being investigated by federal agents because of their extensive knowledge of security-cleared roles and positions.    “I ended up getting investigated by the government because they thought I was a spy because I knew too much … I literally got visited. I was visited by the government. It was unbelievable because I was sitting in my office and the receptionist came back and they said, there's somebody here from the government to see you. And I'm like, I've paid my taxes because that's the only thing I thought I could possibly do wrong. And I got taken into a conference room and they said, we believe you know too much about what's happening. And I'm like, no, I'm not a spy. I don't work for Russia.”   This made her realize that she was probably doing something right if she was getting information that other people were not getting in their industry. Indeed she was! Asking the right questions, and being meticulous in her job, contributed highly in her success as a recruiter and later on as a recruitment business owner. Some of the takeaways on Lee Ann’s success factors are as follows:   Instinctive Recruiting Ability Curiosity and Continuous Learning  Strong Relationship Building Commitment to Hard Work Personalized Approach  Client and Candidate Engagement Being Not Focused on Sales, But on Relationships    Which of the above success factors resonate most with you as a recruiter or business owner? Board Recruiting, Conversation with the Board, and Reverse Placement Programs Lee Ann also discussed key strategies that they implement in Howard & O’Brien with the focus of providing a continuous stream of C-level talents to their clients. The three main programs she discussed are Board Recruiting, Conversation with the Board, and Reverse Placement. Below are the key concepts of the programs:   Board Recruiting Board recruiting is the process of identifying and placing individuals in board positions for organizations. Unlike traditional executive search, it involves adding responsibilities rather than replacing someone. The process includes:   Engaging with CEOs, board chairs, or governance committees to define the board’s needs. Creating a strategic long-term plan for board composition. Ensuring cultural fit and alignment with the company’s strategic direction.   Conversation with the Board This is a program aimed at increasing diversity and exposing more candidates—particularly women—to board opportunities. It was developed as a way to help executives, who may not see themselves as board material, realize their potential for board service. It involves:   Facilitating networking opportunities between potential board members and current board leaders. Encouraging companies to consider non-traditional candidates who bring valuable perspectives.   Reverse Placement Programs This is a specialized career development service for executives looking to join boards. It is either funded by companies or individuals and serves as a way for leaders to continue their professional growth. It provides:   Guidance on positioning oneself for board roles. Strategic networking with board leaders.   These programs put Lee Ann’s team in a strategic position, providing them a long-term relationship-building with existing clients.    Cultivating Long-Term Strategic Relationships On this topic, Lee Ann summarized what can make you stand out with the following experience she had: “What makes you different is what you're trying to do. And I think it's the little things. There was a marketing person that I was interviewing for a job and she knew I'd just gotten a new puppy and she sent me this little assortment of stuff for my puppy. Now I still remember that because, I mean, she listened to what I was saying. It, you know, she probably spent $20 on it. But what an impact.”   It is indeed the little things you do. Some of the best practices that Lee Ann and her team have been doing over the years are as follows: Long-Term Value Over Transactions – They prioritize relationships rather than quick sales, consistently providing valuable insights, industry articles, and strategic advice.   Community Engagement – Each team member is involved in community initiatives, reinforcing their reputation as good corporate stewards and deepening trust with clients.   Personalized Touchpoints – They maintain relationships through handwritten thank-you notes, customized gifts (e.g., olive oil or cherry salsa), and small but meaningful gestures that make an impact.   Being Helpful Beyond Business – They go beyond recruitment by assisting clients in unexpected ways, like recommending a plumber and reinforcing their role as trusted advisors.   Their approach is centered on authenticity, generosity, and a long-term mindset, setting them apart from competitors. As Lee Ann concluded, “It is putting yourself second and putting others first.”   Lee Ann Howard Bio & Contact Info As Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Howard & O’Brien, Lee Ann Howard brings with her a passion for understanding people and dedication to following their journey in executive leadership. In her 25 years of connecting high-caliber candidates with her clients, she has solidified her reputation in driving quantifiable success for million and billion-dollar companies across North America.    Lee Ann leads a Women-Owned Business and carries this spirit into diversity, inclusion, and equitable placement strategies.    Lee Ann founded Conversations with the Board® in 2001 and continues to lead workshops for those who serve or have the desire to serve boards. She is currently on the board of the American Heart Association as Leadership Development Co-chair and past Board Chair as well as Case Western Reserve University (CWRU) Family Business Center Advisory Committee. She has served on the boards of MetroHealth Foundation Board - Membership Committee Chair; the John Carroll University Entrepreneur Association - Executive Committee; In Counsel with Women - Membership Chair, The Gathering Place, Women’s Community Foundation, and Business Volunteers Unlimited (BVU).   Lee Ann is especially passionate about and involved in the shared impact of individuals in greater Cleveland. Over the course of her career, she has received the National Association of Women Business Owners Top Ten Award in Northeast Ohio, the Athena Award, and the Medical Mutual Pillar Award for Community Service.   Lee Ann on LinkedIn Howard & O’Brien website link Howard & O’Brien on LinkedIn   Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

In this episode, we are joined by Rickard Fritjofsson. He’s the founder and CEO of a successful multi-brand recruitment company, Worldwiders, that has placed over 5,000 people in 40 countries.   Rickard discussed key elements of their company culture, influenced by sports principles, including clear career paths and collaborative goal-setting. As a recruitment business owner, it will also resonate with you how he addressed challenges such as downsizing due to market fluctuations which is a great business case of how being resilient will allow you to turn around unfavorable situations into learnings and advantages.   Episode Outline and Highlights   [03:48] How Rickard got into recruitment and how his role as the coach of Norway’s national Bandy team influences his leadership. [08:11] Why Rickard focuses on international jobs as his niche. [13:34] Growing from 0 to $5m in six years - discussion of Nordic Jobs Worldwide’s early days. [21:56] Trigger to decide on when to make the next hire in your recruitment firm. [23:35] Discussion about the business model and the management of portfolios. [26:46] Key success factors when rapidly growing their team. [36:42] Prioritizing career development of team members via progression and support projects. [45:30] Learnings that forced them to downsize and restructure.   Targeting International Jobs as a Niche   A unique selling proposition of Rickard and his team is their focus on international jobs as a niche. “So I did some research and figured out that no company in the world, even if the recruitment industry is big, is doing the niche of language recruitment of Nordics… So we were the first to step into that niche in 2016. So Norwegian, Swedish Danish, and Finnish were the specialization, and the business developed there. And we decided also to build it organically, like stone by stone.”    Being observant of industry needs, Rickard came up with an impactful solution and built their business from there. He shared their three main objectives when launching their recruitment business: build a company organically, scale the business, and be the best in what they do. So far, Rickard and his team are on track to achieving these three main goals since starting their business in 2016.   Key Success Factors Contributing to Rapid Growth   An astonishing feat that Rickard and his team have accomplished is the rapid sustainable growth of their company since its inception. He grew the company from 0 to $5m in just six years. They have placed over 5000 people in 40 countries and they have 400+ clients worldwide. What would Rickard consider as a success factor contributing to this growth? Here are some takeaways:   Core Values-Driven Culture – Embedding Courage, Trust, and Results into daily operations and decision-making. Clear Career Progression – Offering fast internal growth opportunities, and motivating employees to excel. Decisive Expansion Strategy – Rapidly opening offices in Barcelona and Lisbon, executing growth plans with confidence. Market-Aligned Scaling – Capitalizing on post-2022 industry demand to scale efficiently. Performance-Driven Mindset – Fostering a "best in the world" mentality, akin to elite sports teams (due to his background in Bandy) Client Partnership Approach – Positioning as strategic advisors rather than just service providers. Culture of Celebration – Recognizing achievements through company-wide events, awards, and gatherings.   Rickard said,  “From day one, when we started the business, we also put up core values and they are still active in the company. We also have three keywords: courage, trust, and result. So it's like having the courage to climb Mount Everest and call it taking strategic risks, putting the trust in the people we are hiring, and from that getting the results”   Overcoming Challenges - From Scaling to Downsizing   Rickard has also been very generous in sharing their resilience mindset when overcoming challenges. The last two years have been challenging: from scaling from 0-90 employees to downsizing to 60 again and cutting costs to meet the market situation is a scenario that Rickard is not used to.    However, you will hear in our conversation his resilient recruiter mindset and how getting out of his comfort zone makes him a strong CEO who can turn around unfavorable situations. He was specific in action points that they are doing differently such as implementation of stricter financial controls and a return to foundational recruitment practices, with plans to scale responsibly with improved processes.    If you are a recruitment entrepreneur and leader, you will surely be able to relate to what he shared in his experience. Have you navigated a similar scenario as a leader before?   Rickard Fritjofsson  Bio & Contact Info   Rickard Fritjofsson is a Swedish citizen living in Norway for the past 15 years, with an apartment in Málaga, Spain that allows him to enjoy both northern and southern European lifestyles. He is the founder of Worldwiders, a multi-brand recruitment company specializing in Language Recruitment, IT, and Executive Search, serving 400+ clients across 40+ countries. Passionate about the blend of sports and business. Former bandy player, now the national coach for Team Norway, leading them to a World Cup bronze medal.   Rickard on LinkedIn Worldwiders website link Nordic Job Worldwide website link Asian Job Worldwide website link IT Jobs Worldwide website link Multilingual Jobs Worldwide website link   Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.

Not everyone is born to become a recruiter, but this may be the case for our special guest, Rachel Filby. When her father convinced her to pursue a career in recruitment, she never hesitated and firmly believed that it was one of the best decisions of her life. In her first year with Michael Page, she became a top biller, and she now runs her own recruitment agency, RF Recruitment. In this episode, you will hear about the very specific success factors that led to her becoming a top performer and how she successfully transitioned to becoming a consistently successful solopreneur. Rachel has 20 years of recruitment experience, initially working for one of the largest recruitment agencies in the world.  In the Financial Times Survey 2024, Rachel Filby was recognized as one of the top 150 recruiters in the UK.  Episode Outline and Highlights [01:09] How Rachel got into recruiting and how she became the number one biller at Michael Page. [11:21] Five success factors in becoming a top billing perm recruiter in the UK in her first year. [19:33] Thought process that motivates Rachel’s sense of urgency. [25:22] Discussion on rapid career trajectory and development as a leader. [32:00] Launching RF Recruitment agency during COVID and while integrating family life. [40:55] Rachel reveals her typical day-to-day process (past-present-future approach). [48:13] Best practices on lead generation and business development. [1:00:55] Rapid fire questions - business model, tech stack, etc.   Five Success Factors of Becoming the Top Biller in Her First Year as a Recruiter Rachel initially wanted a career in media, but her father recommended that she take recruitment as a career path. At 21, she started her career with Michael Page and became a top biller in her first year!  Although she primarily attributes her success to the great training she received from Michael Page, I found five success factors that could resonate well with many aspiring recruiters who also plan to become future recruitment business owners:   Commitment to Training and Preparation: Rachel took her training seriously, treating it with the level of commitment often reserved for seasoned professionals.  Strong Work Ethic and Dedication: Her willingness to work long hours and focus on her tasks set her apart.  Genuine Passion for People: Her empathy and listening skills allowed her to build meaningful relationships and understand individuals' unique needs, making her a trusted advisor during critical moments in their careers. Focus on High Activity Levels and KPIs: Rachel consistently met or exceeded her KPIs, which ensured a steady pipeline of candidates and opportunities. Sense of Urgency and Speed: Rachel’s natural inclination for urgency enabled her to act swiftly on opportunities.    Together, these factors, along with the right mindset and strategy, propelled Rachel to outstanding success in her first year as a recruiter. This also led to a strong career trajectory, with her getting an early promotion as a manager.   Using the Past-Present-Future Approach in Day-to-Day Business   As a recruitment solopreneur, it can be challenging for Rachel to handle the end-to-end process of her business due to capacity challenges. This is also on top of her duty as a mother, as she places high value on taking care of her kids. I wanted to know her day-to-day process and how she can sustain her momentum in successfully running her business with consistent billing and client acquisition.   She explained, “I kind of separate my, my thought process and on my business in kind of three areas. So it's past, present, and future.”   She elaborated that the “past” means protecting the money she made or existing relationships. This entails a lot of aftercare and ensuring that relationships are continuously maintained.   The “present” is explained as “Then I have kind of the present, which is jobs I'm currently recruiting, candidates I'm currently working with. That's my kind of here-and-now. So, you know, I guess there's a bit of a sweet spot of how many jobs, you know, you have that you can do a really good job on within the time that you have. And you don't really want too many more than that or too many less than that.”   The “future” refers to business development and lead generation to secure the source of the next job.   Do you also apply the same approach to your business?   Best Practices on Lead Generation and Business Development   When discussing the “future” principle, I wanted to pick Rachel’s brains on her approach to business development and lead generation as well as how much time she spends in this aspect of her business. Below are some takeaways:   1. Proactive and Low-Pressure Engagement   Rachel consistently monitors her niche market, staying updated on who’s hiring and when they might need her services. She engages early in the recruitment process with no expectation of immediately winning the job, allowing her to build rapport without pressuring the client.   2. Intentional Targeting and Tailored Communication   Her outreach is bespoke and personal—whether it’s a phone call, LinkedIn message, or email—avoiding generic marketing materials in favor of tailored communication that resonates with potential clients.   3. Prioritizing Connection Through Calls   Despite the prevalence of digital communication, Rachel emphasizes the power of phone calls as the foundation of strong client relationships. She supplements this with follow-ups via voicemail, email, and LinkedIn to ensure she remains on their radar.   Rachel Filby Bio & Contact Info   Rachel Filby has 20 years of recruitment experience working initially for one of the largest recruitment agencies in the world and now runs her recruitment agency specializing in Facilities Management Recruitment. Rachel Filby is recognized as one of the top 150 recruiters in the UK in the Financial Times Survey 2024.    Rachel on LinkedIn RF Recruit website link   People and Resources Mentioned  Firefish  Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter   If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

Mary Morton reveals how converting scientific research into strategic relationships revolutionized her recruitment approach. A biology major turned pharmaceutical recruiter, she leverages investor presentations and company pipelines to identify opportunities before her competitors.  This research-driven strategy and building deep client trust helped her agency thrive from its 2008 recession launch through today's market challenges. Episode Outline and Highlights [04:50] How Mary accidentally got into recruitment. [08:30] Critical foundations contributing to recruitment career longevity. [17:26] Building relationships and walking the talk: Mary’s ingredients to success. [29:37] Mary is a science nerd and how she uses this quality to connect with clients. [39:43] How preparation and research in advance make it easy for May to connect with decision-makers for potential clients. [42:21] Adding value in your niche as a recruitment organization. [45:20] Quick fire questions. [49:27] Why Mary launched her podcast, MSLead Chronicles. [53:27] Mary shared one of the biggest roadblocks she had to overcome.   Critical Foundations in Billing $10M  Mary's 30+ years of experience demonstrates how becoming an industry expert enables proactive rather than reactive recruiting. Her biology degree and pharmaceutical specialization became powerful advantages in building a $10M+ billing desk. Her longevity in the industry and accomplishments in the pharmaceutical niche can be attributed to several foundational elements: Curiosity and Science-Driven Approach: She emphasized the importance of being a "nerd" about the industry you work in, highlighting her drive to learn everything about the pharmaceutical space. People-Centric Focus: While being a people person is essential, Mary combined this quality with deep industry expertise and strategic focus to excel in recruitment, a role that requires more than interpersonal skills. Relentless Drive and Discipline: Mary's strong work ethic and determination were inspired by her father, a Marine Corps officer with a 31-year career. His values of accountability, responsibility, and perseverance deeply influenced her approach to work.   These factors, combined with her adaptability, niche specialization, and focus on continuous learning, have solidified her position as a leader in the recruitment industry.   How to Add Value to Your Niche as a Recruitment Organization   “Well, if they're already niched, I think they owe it to themselves as well as to the candidates and clients that they're serving to be an expert in the space that they're niched in or that they claim to be niched in. You know, I think that's where the value comes it.” This statement summarizes Mary’s mindset on adding value to your industry niche as a recruitment organization.   By investing in niche-specific knowledge and preparation, recruitment organizations can elevate their effectiveness and differentiate themselves in competitive markets. It also brings about the following benefits that Mary elaborated on in our discussion:   Enhanced Expertise and Credibility Anticipation of Objections Improved Candidate and Client Engagement Higher Placement Success Rates Efficiency in Communication Tailored Solutions Long-Term Industry Impact   One way Mary builds her credibility in her relevant niche (in addition to her longevity) is by hosting a podcast.   Comprehensive Information Gathering as Competitive Advantage  Mary's approach to information gathering goes far beyond standard job requirements. This thorough preparation becomes a key differentiator in her market. She can easily engage with potential clients' primary decision-makers, which results in optimum connection rates.   She shared the essential elements of her process:   Detailed initial client conversations beyond job descriptions Documentation of potential objections and prepared responses Collection of scientific/technical information candidates might question Market feedback about the company's reputation Preparation of selling points and challenge responses   These strategies directly contributed to Mary's ability to build a sustainable business that has thrived through multiple market downturns while maintaining premium fees averaging $50,000.   Mary Morton Bio & Contact Info   Mary began her recruiting career 30 years ago this coming March. For the last 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry. She owns SEMbio, a niche recruiting firm in field-based medical affairs, that she founded in 2008 with her longtime colleague and business partner, Nicole Evans. She has been a member of the Pinnacle Society for 7 years and runs a 360 desk that is primarily focused on account management, with personal billings above $10M over the last 15 years. (I only have billing records going back to 2011!)   Sembio website link MSLead Chronicles Podcast on YouTube   People and Resources Mentioned    Nicole Evans on LinkedIn Chad Fellers on LinkedIn Pinnacle Society PCRecruiter  Ring Central Hinterview  Swordfish Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn,  Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

How does someone with zero recruitment experience build a thriving search firm from the ground up—in just five years?In this episode, Hugh Pocock, Co-Founder of Cultura Connect, shares how his deep agricultural background helped him build a rapidly scaling recruitment firm that now boasts a team of 13 specialists across the agriculture, food, and forestry sectors.We explore Hugh’s mindset, lessons learned, and the unique systems he’s implemented to grow a purpose-led, remote-first recruitment business.🎧 Episode Highlights:[02:11] Hugh’s journey from agriculture to recruitment[11:30] Key stages in building Cultura Connect[20:15] Overcoming the challenge of hiring for your own team[26:58] Remote setup: challenges and solutions[38:42] Early struggles in new business and how he got through them[44:41] Cash flow, KPIs, and what really drives growth[48:31] Hugh’s absolute keys to success[51:48] Cultural values and minimum standards for hiring[54:28] Branding and marketing strategies that work🌾 Industry Expertise: The Ultimate DifferentiatorHugh’s story proves how deep subject matter expertise can become your biggest asset in recruitment. His 20+ years in agribusiness gave him:Credibility with clients and candidatesClear insight into roles, trends, and talent needsAn authentic voice that builds instant trustBy combining his field experience with co-founder Tom Marsh’s recruitment background, they created a business that bridges two worlds—and serves clients better as a result.🧠 Building the Right TeamCultura Connect’s rapid growth comes down to one principle: hire people who live and breathe your niche. Hugh looks for:Passion for the sectorResilienceIntegrityProactivityTeam-first mindsetQuality-over-quantity mindsetCulture fit and domain knowledge matter more than volume metrics.🏡 Remote-First Doesn’t Mean DisconnectedCultura Connect is fully remote, but their people-first model proves remote teams can thrive with the right structure. Key ingredients:6-week rhythm: In-person team sessions every 6 weeksQuarterly bonding: Activities like hiking and canoeingStrong onboarding: 3–4 days in-person to set the toneWeekly virtual check-ins to maintain alignmentFlexible workspaces to accommodate preferencesThe result? A tight-knit culture that drives performance—without the overhead of a physical office.🔑 Hugh’s Keys to Success“Getting the right people—people who understand the industry. That’s allowed us to be seen as the agri, food, and forestry specialists. Passion, commitment, and culture fit are what make it work.”👤 About Hugh PocockHugh is Co-Founder and Director at Cultura Connect, a niche search firm founded in 2020 that specializes in agriculture, food, and forestry talent. He brings over 20 years of agribusiness experience, including high-level commercial roles in cattle genetics and livestock operations.He also runs a regenerative farm with his family in Shropshire, raising Romney and Dorset sheep and Wagyu cattle. His dual experience in farming and recruitment gives him rare insight into team-building across the agri-supply chain.🔗 Connect with Hugh & Cultura Connect:Hugh on LinkedIn | Cultura Connect Website | Cultura Connect on Instagram📚 Mentioned in This Episode:Matt Walsh on LinkedIn | Tom Marsh on LinkedInOverdue Invoices? Here’s How to Collect Your Placement Fee!🎙️ Connect with Mark Whitby:Free Strategy Call | LinkedIn | @RecruitmentCoach on InstagramTwitter: @MarkWhitby | Facebook: Mark Whitby👍 Like this episode? Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter and leave a review to help more recruiters discover the show!

Few people have established the credibility and connections that Jessica Hamilton has when it comes to recruiting in the financial crime space. Jess is the go-to recruiter in London for financial crime roles, with over a decade of experience partnering with clients to build out their teams. In our conversation, Jess shares the fascinating story of how a discussion in a pub first got her interested in specializing in financial crime recruitment. She went on to launch and build highly successful teams, first at Robert Walters, then Investigo where she led the top-performing financial services recruitment team globally. Recently, Jess took her career to the next level by launching her own firm, FincSelect, with business partner Ian Christie. Jess reveals the keys to her success, including focusing on being a trusted advisor, not just a transactional recruiter. Her "soft sell" marketing approach, sharing valuable insights and building real relationships, has made her the recruiter of choice in her market.   Episode Outline and Highlights   [02:24] How Jess got into recruiting marketing roles to Financial Crime. [07:16] Key factors in building the biggest billing desk in Investigo. [12:58] Discussion of Jess’s power phrases: “The placement is the prize, not the program” & “The art of the soft sell” [16:15] Becoming a credible thought leader through LinkedIn. [24:36] How panels and other platforms can help establish your expertise in your niche community. [32:09] Video phone calls and LinkedIn messaging to get a “larger surface of luck.” [40:28] Doing BD daily - Jess shares their best practice. [43:45] How to drive and use referrals from clients and candidates as a primary metric. [53:25] Navigating work-life integration by prioritizing and being task-focused.   Nuggets of Wisdom from Jess   Jess shared insightful perspectives on her recruitment cadence and approach in our conversation. Below are the power phrases she shared that I am sure will resonate well to recruiters and business owners, both new and tenured:    "The placement is the prize, not the program"   Jessica stresses the importance of focusing on long-term outcomes rather than immediate successes. In her experience, success in recruitment comes from investing time and effort into understanding the market deeply, building expertise, and creating value for clients beyond merely filling roles.    "The art of the soft sell":   Jessica highlights the effectiveness of positioning oneself as a knowledgeable consultant rather than a traditional recruiter. She builds trust and credibility by demonstrating expertise, being genuinely curious, and consistently engaging with the market (e.g., hosting events, having insightful conversations, and creating content on LinkedIn). This approach fosters a natural demand for her services, emphasizing the value of being seen as an advisor who shapes team structures and strategies.   Using Referral as a Metric to Drive Growth   Another interesting approach shared by Jess is how they use referrals as a primary metric. She has created a sustainable practice by prioritizing the quality of relationships that generate ongoing referrals. Some key strategies she shared for building a referral-based business are outlined below: Tracking all referral sources meticulously in your CRM Using brief, personal outreach messages focused on relationship-building Leveraging WhatsApp (desktop) for efficient communication management Building strategic partnerships with complementary businesses Always asking for referrals in every conversation Treating candidates and clients with equal importance Focus on authentic relationships over formal referral schemes "How can you decide if you're the best if no one's referring you?" This mindset has enabled Jessica to build a business where quality relationships drive consistent growth rather than relying solely on direct business development efforts.   Brand Development as the new “BD” in Recruitment One of the most important takeaways from Jessica's approach is how she redefines BD—not as "business development," but as "brand development." Instead of relying solely on the usual cold calls and sales tactics, Jessica has carved out a thriving niche by positioning herself as a thought leader in financial crime recruitment. Her strategy shows that by consistently building your personal and professional brand, you can create a steady flow of inbound opportunities.   Some strategies she implements are as follows: Posting consistently on LinkedIn (3x weekly) between 10 am-4 pm Tuesday-Friday Sponsoring strategic industry events as the sole recruitment partner  Building credibility through association with industry leaders (ex. International Compliance Association) Jessica Hamilton Bio and Contact Info  Jessica is pretty much synonymous with financial crime recruitment in London. She is the most well-known recruiter in her space and is seen as a thought leader and industry expert. She has featured in a book of financial crime compliance experts "Financial Crime Fighter - Book of Mentors", alongside many global heads of banks and industry. She speaks on industry panels and is the recruitment expert on the new ICA course for new MLROs. Jess has been recruiting for just over 10 years and created her first financial crime desk from scratch initially at Robert Walters in London, after meeting a girl in a pub who did financial crime (Jess thought the role sounded interesting) Jess then went onto replicate this at another global recruitment agency, based in London (Investigo) where within 2 years, she had built it to the top billing desk in financial services, globally.  It was at Investigo she met her business partner, Ian Christie.  After the birth of her first son, Ian approached Jess to start out on there own, and after returning from maternity leave the founded FincSelect in 2022.  Jessica on LinkedIn FincSelect website   People and Resources Mentioned Ian Christie on LinkedIn Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

If there is one thing more certain in marketing and branding, it is this: Making videos is no longer optional for building a successful recruitment business brand. How do you overcome the common barriers, misconceptions, and complexities of creating effective video content? What are the proven ROI and benefits of doing so? In this episode, we are joined by Sunjay Vyas, an accomplished videographer, video podcast producer, and content creator based in the UK. He prides himself on producing compelling video content. Episode Outline and Highlights: [01:50] Sunjay’s story of starting in recruitment at age 16 and becoming a sourcer at 18. [09:27] Realizing his passion: What made Sunjay shift to a different role from recruitment?  [15:21] Three biggest misconceptions of recruitment business owners on video and audio content creation. [20:09] Overcoming the fear of creating videos for branding: building an audience. [28:22] Becoming an authority in your space by putting yourself out there. [31:51] Outsourcing, keeping it simple, and the importance of starting small and being consistent. [38:48] Generating inbound leads by constantly creating content. [40:08] Advanced content strategies and repurposing for those who already host their podcast. [44:25] Information about "Behind the Mic" community resource The Three Common Misconceptions or Barriers to Creating Video Content   Some recruitment business owners find creating videos or audio content difficult when building their brand. Sunjay and I agreed on the three most common misconceptions, and if you can relate to any of these, then you will enjoy this episode as we explain why the benefits and return on investment outweigh the barriers.   It’s Too Complicated or Overwhelming   Why It’s a Misconception:   Recruitment business owners often see video production as a technical, complex, and time-consuming process. Many start as solopreneurs already juggling multiple roles, making video creation feel like an enormous task.   Why It Shouldn’t Be:   Modern tools and platforms have simplified video production. With minimal equipment and basic editing software, creating professional-looking videos is accessible and manageable even for beginners. Starting small and scaling up can reduce overwhelm.   It’s Too Expensive with Unclear ROI   Why It’s a Misconception:   The cost of video production can seem prohibitive, especially if the return on investment (ROI) is uncertain. Business owners might struggle to see how content creation directly translates into revenue.   Why It Shouldn’t Be:   Video content builds brand visibility, trust, and long-term customer relationships, indirectly boosting sales and recruitment opportunities. Even low-cost content can yield significant returns through consistent engagement and brand presence.   Feeling Uncomfortable or Experiencing Imposter Syndrome   Why It’s a Misconception:   Though confident in conversations, recruitment business owners might feel uneasy in front of the camera. Self-doubt creeps in, raising fears of judgment, embarrassment, or not being perceived as valuable.   Why It Shouldn’t Be:   Authenticity resonates more than perfection. Audiences appreciate real, relatable content. Over time, regular practice helps overcome camera shyness and builds confidence, making the process more natural.   The Three ROIs of Video Content and Podcasting   The three benefits below, which can bring an exponential ROI to your recruitment business, counter the three common misconceptions about creating video content. Many of our previous guests, as well as many from our existing coaching community, have proven and shared these benefits. 1. Building an Audience Video content and podcasting allow businesses to reach a broader audience beyond one-on-one interactions. By sharing valuable insights online, companies can connect with potential clients and candidates they might never meet otherwise. Even if viewers or listeners don’t engage directly, the content can still impact their decisions, creating a ripple effect. Consistency is key—regularly publishing content builds trust, credibility, and a loyal following, transforming businesses from being the best-kept secret to a well-known industry authority.   2. Becoming an Authority in Your Space Creating content positions businesses as experts in their field. Companies can demonstrate expertise by sharing knowledge, insights, and solutions to industry challenges rather than just claiming it. This visibility helps potential clients associate the business with industry leadership and up-to-date insights. People trust brands that consistently showcase their know-how, making them the go-to resource when prospects need help or advice.   3. Generating Leads Podcasts and videos serve as powerful lead-generation tools. They create touchpoints that nurture relationships and keep businesses top-of-mind for potential clients. A well-executed content strategy can convert casual listeners or viewers into paying customers. Testimonials from businesses gaining clients through podcasts illustrate this, showing how content can be a direct revenue driver and a long-term business development asset. Best Practices and Tips Sunjay shared a few best practices and pragmatic approaches to creating content without adversely affecting your day-to-day schedule. Some of the core practices he discussed are: Create consistent content (start with one post per week) Share your daily recruitment expertise through video Build trust through regular video presence Scale your one-to-one conversations into content   Sunjay said, "People want to see you... when you see this person, you see them interacting with someone else on camera and you see the engagement, I think that builds trust quicker than anything else."  One of our success stories is our coaching community member Jodi, who went from refusing to do videos to winning new business through her video content and podcast. Her story demonstrates how video content can transform a recruitment business's lead generation strategy from constant outbound activity to attracting pre-qualified, inbound leads. Sunjay Vyas Bio and Contact Info  Sunjay Vyas is an accomplished videographer, video podcast producer, and content creator based in the UK. He prides himself on producing compelling video content. Whether he's hosting his own show or working with clients, Sunjay brings creativity and professionalism to every project. He is passionate about leveraging the power of video to tell impactful stories and engage audiences. In addition to video production, Sunjay has experience managing, recruiting, and training teams earlier in his career. He spent several years in recruitment across London and the Middle East, specializing in financial markets technology. Sunjay studied Exercise and Sports Science and holds qualifications in personal training and fitness coaching. Outside of work, he enjoys staying active and spending time with his family. With his dedication to creating compelling content, strong technical skills, ability to connect with audiences, and over a decade working in recruitment Sunjay is an asset and we are happy to have him on board. Visit my Amazon storefront at Anisha & Sunjay. Remember, these are affiliate links - you don't pay any extra, but Amazon sends me a few pennies for the referral.   Sunjay Vyas on LinkedIn Behind the Mic - LinkedIn newsletter and community founded by Sunjay and Anisha.   People and Resources Mentioned Jodi Mayer on LinkedIn Circle  James Clear - Atomic Habits   Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.  

"Work hardest when times are best, not worst" - this counterintuitive philosophy helped Brock Boyd build a 25-year tech recruitment empire that's survived three major market crashes. When Brock Boyd started his recruitment firm in 1998, he ran his business from his bedroom in a shared house, where suited colleagues would show up to work daily - sometimes while he was still sleeping from late-night prospecting.  Today, 25 years later, he's a member of the prestigious Pinnacle Society leading an international tech sales recruitment practice. Through multiple market cycles - from the dot-com crash to 2008's recession to today's tech slowdown - Brock has built Career Management Inc. (CMI) into a sustainable business while developing wealth-building principles that have given him true financial freedom. Episode Outline and Highlights: [01:49] How a friend needing a ride to a job fair led to recruitment. [04:27] Taking the entrepreneurial leap after just 11 months! [10:47] Recalling the early days: Cold calling from his bedroom while colleagues showed up in suits. [15:26] Discussion of peak performance periods: 1999-2000 and 2021-2022. [18:17] Focus on resilience: Surviving 2002 and the $63,000 bankruptcy challenge [24:22] "I work by far the hardest in the best of times" - Brock's contrarian business philosophy [27:47] Smart financial moves most recruiters miss: The "two boulders" theory [38:51] How to retire early as recruiters: The three key factors [54:56] Tech stack deep dive: What works in modern recruitment [1:03:19] Understanding market cycles: "It's like winter and spring will come" Building a Recession-Proof Tech Sales Recruitment Practice After being hired by a staffing firm, Brock launched his own business after only 11 months! He had a fascinating story of finding his way into permanent staffing without really having much of a background before starting his recruitment firm. From solo operator to leading an international team, Brock has built Career Management Inc. (CMI) into a sustainable practice over 25 years. Starting with just three clients in 1998, he strategically evolved from general sales to specialized tech sales recruitment. Here is his firm’s current structure: 3.5 full-desk recruiters (US-based) 2.5 candidate-focused recruiters International support team across Argentina, Colombia, Philippines, and India Support staff handling administrative and database work Below are the key success factors that helped his business thrive over the years, through multiple market cycles, including the dot-com crash, the 2008 recession, and the current tech slowdown, while growing sustainably through each recovery. Early specialization in tech sales (higher fees vs general sales) Lean operations during growth years Strategic investment in revenue-generating tools Counter-cyclical work approach: highest effort during boom markets Maintaining core tools during downturns while cutting non-essential costs Personal Finance & Wealth Building for Recruiters A topic that resonates well with me is how Brock gives value to personal finance and wealth building for people in the recruitment industry. Most successful recruiters earn exceptional income, yet struggle to build lasting wealth in the long term. Brock has been a great example of turning his recruitment earnings into true financial freedom through disciplined investing and smart money management. He shared his mindset and strategies on how he balances his investment strategy with different instruments and risks.  Below are some core best practices he shared on the topic of personal finance: Keep lifestyle expenses well below earnings, especially in good years Never invest more than 10% of total assets in any single investment Maintain substantial cash reserves to buy assets during downturns Focus on three key areas: work earnings, investment earnings, and lifestyle costs "The further below your earnings your lifestyle and spending are, the faster you're going to get to financial freedom. And the closer they are, or God forbid they're overlapped in the wrong direction, then the further away that is." This disciplined approach has helped Brock build sustainable wealth through multiple market cycles while many recruiters, despite high earnings, struggle with long-term financial security. “Working Hardest in the Best of Times” "Work hardest when times are best, not worst" - this counterintuitive philosophy helped Brock Boyd build a 25-year tech recruitment empire that's survived three major market crashes.  Brock’s work ethic revolves around maintaining resilience through challenging times while recognizing the role of external factors. Uniquely, Brock works hardest during prosperous times, moderately during stable periods, and least during downturns. He views this approach as a strategic response to the opportunity cost, focusing energy where returns are likely highest. This pragmatic mindset helps him stay balanced and focused despite industry fluctuations. Disclaimer: This podcast does not provide financial or tax advice; listeners are encouraged to consult a qualified professional for personalized guidance.   Brock Boyd Bio and Contact Info  Brock has served as President/Chief Executive Officer since founding Career Management, Inc. in April 1998. His aggressive pursuit of face time with the staffing industry’s leading experts led him to become the youngest member on the Board of the National Association of Personnel Services in 2001. To date, Brock has completed over 500 successful searches. In May of 2000, he was featured in the NAPS newsletter for his accomplishments and vision.    In addition, he received his CPC (Certified Personnel Consultant) designation in 2003. He has also produced and delivered seminars on interviewing skills (for candidates seeking positions as well as hiring managers). He has been hired to deliver sales training to multiple companies as well as consulting several companies on the process of building/hiring a sales organization from scratch.   Brock graduated from Old Dominion University where he was a NCAA Division I Collegiate Wrestler. He lives in Vienna, VA with his wife and son. Brock Boyd on LinkedIn  CMI (Career Management Inc) website  People and Resources Mentioned Bullhorn (ATS) LinkedIn Recruiter LinkedIn Sales Navigator Prospect Ladder  Lusha  ZoomInfo  Pinnacle Society  S&P 500 Index   Connect with Mark Whitby Get your FREE 30-minute strategy call Mark on LinkedIn Mark on Twitter: @MarkWhitby Mark on Facebook Mark on Instagram: @RecruitmentCoach   Subscribe to The Resilient Recruiter If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, please take two minutes to leave a review. Your review is greatly appreciated because it helps us attract a bigger audience and help more recruiters.