Why KPIs Don't Work . . . and What Does

Keith Perhac is the Founder of SegMetrics, a once-upon-a-time marketing agency that pivoted from marketing services to a suite of analytical and reporting products. Today SegMetrics builds and refines digital testing and tracking tools that provide marketers with critical information on where "leads come from, how they act, and how much a marketing program is really worth."

In this interview, Keith explains that KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) tell a company if it is doing something better or worse than at some time in the past. However, KPIs are about averages – they do not explain what is wrong or right – or what action to take next. Keith says it is important to look at the outliers, follow your leads through their entire customer journey, and dig beyond top-level KPIs to get a deeper understanding of the contribution different components make to a KPI.

Before SegMetrics, Keith worked as a developer at a marketing/development agency in the middle of nowhere Japan. Fed up with long hours, Keith decided to quit to do "something on his own." He started freelancing, "building awesome software" for great marketers, including Ramit Sethi, author of I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Keith claims Ramit taught him most of what he knows about marketing. Back then, agencies built their own metrics and testing tools.

Ramit's focus on data, customer experience, and the customer journey brought a new dimension to Keith's understanding of marketing: He had to go back to his college psychology lessons on "how people think." How could a company measure every touchpoint, every experience? How could it split-test design or copy position? What could it do to test whether people were converting?

Keith's agency focused on expediting client launches and optimizing their marketing funnels. Keith says that, often, the biggest value the agency provided was in pointing out customer journey disconnects, fragmentation, and "holes" in funnels. The launches were exciting . . . the retainers not so much. Still, the agency expanded to twelve employees in four countries.

During a two-week period of client-free downtime, Keith's team built the software that is the foundation of SegMetrics today. A month-and-a-half later, the product launched. Keith intended to transform the agency to a product-oriented company over time and as the product increased in popularity. Didn't happen. The product did not "take off" until three years later, when they started a SegMetrics marketing campaign . . . and shut down the agency. Skillsets, tools, the business model, and staffing needs changed overnight.

Today, SegMetrics provides done-for-you services, facilitates client agency onboarding, and offers a lot of customer support for its software. The biggest challenge is educating agencies that "think they already know what they know." Keith is believes that setting up solid tracking and UTM implementation is critical for understanding where to best spend marketing dollars. An Urchin Tracking Module (UTM) is simple URL-linked code that generates Google Analytics.)

Keith discusses the impact of Covid-19 on various business segments . . . and highlights the surprising number and kinds of businesses that are seeing tremendous business growth. While brick-and-mortar companies have suffered, Keith has seen increased traffic for companies providing entertainment, digital media, telecommunications, online information products, and Masterclasses.

SegMetrics is releasing its first printed book this May: The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert. The book will be available on Amazon. Keith can be contacted throughs his company's website at: segmetrics.io and on Twitter (Keith Perhac).

Transcript Follows:

ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Keith Perhac. He is the Founder of Segmetrics, based in Portland, Oregon. Welcome to the podcast, Keith.

KEITH: Thanks so much for having me.

ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Keith, why don't you tell us a little bit about your own journey and how that landed you into Segmetrics?

KEITH: It was a long journey, as I think many listeners' journeys were. I started out working as a salaryman in middle-of-nowhere, Japan as a marketer. Or not as a marketer, as kind of a developer and working at a standard marketing/development agency. That continued on for a while. The company got acquired; I decided I don't like working until 2 a.m. every night, and I'd prefer to do something on my own.

I ended up leaving that and started out freelancing and doing work for a couple of marketers that were not very well-known at the time. Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You to Be Rich and a couple of other people. It grew and ballooned from there.

It was interesting, because my journey was not, "Oh, I'm going to go start an agency." It was more falling into that agency. I started out as a freelancer and then I got too busy, and it's like, I've got to bring on a subcontractor, and then I've got to bring on another one, and then there's more clients who want to work with me, and okay, now I have five people working with me. Oh, now I need to start doing events, and now I have 12 people working for me in multiple countries.

So, it just grew organically from "I just like building awesome software and working with great marketers" to "Now we have a team of 12 people over four countries and we're working with clients all over the globe." That was a shift. [laughs]

ROB: [laughs] That's quite a shift. Across the world, across industries. So many different shifts there.

KEITH: Yeah.

ROB: I would imagine going through that I Will Teach You to Be Rich phase – people may have heard of Ramit now. From a marketing perspective, were they numbers-driven? Is that part of your story?

KEITH: Yeah, he's always been super numbers-driven. Honestly, working with him was probably the highlight of my career and probably where I learned the most stuff about marketing because it really was trial by fire.

This was back in the day when there really wasn't a lot of marketing technology out there. We look at things like automated webinars now, or we look at things like proof, to have a little pop-up to say, "So-and-so just bought . . ." None of this existed back then. There were no metrics except what you could calculate yourself. Google Analytics was around, but it wasn't very good. Split testing tools – all of the stuff that we take for granted now, we had to build ourselves.

Ramit's always been a marketer who has been very into the data and very into the experience that customers are having and that people are going through. So the whole idea of how we can measure every touchpoint, every experience that people have and then take that and do something with that, whether that's a split test on design, whether that's positioning for copy, whether that's a little pop-up that says "So-and-so just bought . . .," what are the things that we can do to test and see if people are converting or not?

This all sounds like standard hat now; it wasn't back then. And we were also in a compressed timeline where it's like, "Hey, we want to have this up by Wednesday and it's Tuesday evening." [laughs] It really was a trial by fire. I had had some marketing background, mainly dev and design, and then suddenly I got thrown into this world of, "You have to understand the marketing, how people think." I used a lot of my psychology background and stuff that I learned in college that I thought, "I'm never going to use this again," and now that's front and center with how people react to pages, how people interact with sites and copy and design, and then being able to test and improve that.

It's really crazy. It was just constant. I think we worked with him for 5 years. That sounds about right. But it was a small team. He had just launched the second version of his first product, and I think there were five of us. It was pretty amazing.

ROB: That sounds like quite an adventure, and quite a journey for him, his brand, and probably you along the way. I think you have talked a lot about numbers, about KPIs, and things that people get right and people get wrong about KPIs. What are some of the goods and bads of KPIs?

KEITH: There's a lot of cargo culting in marketing, for good and bad. I think that KPIs are something that have been pushed for so long that people, rightly so, are like, "KPIs are important. They're our key performance indicator. If we don't know these, then we're not going to be able to improve our marketing." That's what I hear over and over, especially when we were doing the consulting with the agency, and especially now that we're a KPI-driven company. People are always like, "What KPIs do I need to look at to improve my marketing?"

The answer is you don't, because KPIs are key performance indicators. They indicate whether the company is doing well or not, or whether a marketing funnel is doing well or not. It's a measure like your speedometer, or I guess the engine heat gauge on your car. If the number is going down or up, you know you're doing something wrong or right. But just looking at that number is not going to let you know what to do next.

That's why we're really big into looking at outliers. When you look at a KPI, you're looking at an average. Let's say you have 200 people coming into a funnel. You have 100 people coming in from Google, you have 100 people coming in from Facebook. The 100 people from Google convert at 100%. Every single person purchases. No one purchases from Facebook. What's your KPI for your conversion rate? It's 50%. That's great. But that didn't tell you that you have one audience that's making all the money and one audience that's making none of it. So, you know what to do at that point. You either get rid of the Facebook ads or you figure out why they're not converting.

Looking at that top level KPI – and this is what most people think of when they think of the KPIs – it doesn't let you know anything other than, is the business continuing to do better or worse than it was yesterday or last month? It doesn't tell you those outliers, which is what you actually need to look at if you're going to improve.

ROB: That's interesting what you mentioned on outliers. Especially when you're talking about looking at traffic from Google, some traffic from Google you can do more quickly in terms of ads. Some traffic you can do more slowly, maybe, in search. And sometimes you don't know – without a proper indicator of search traffic, there may not be any more traffic for you to get.

KEITH: Right.

ROB: All of that is context, I think, for what makes a good number and what makes a good KPI. What are you seeing in terms of maybe some unexpected outliers? We are in this moment where many of us are sheltering at home. We are in the middle of this coronavirus outbreak and trying to take care of each other and other people in our world by staying home. What are some of the shifting outliers you've seen in this mode?

KEITH: This has been super interesting because some of the things that I predicted would go down and fail have not, and some of the things that I thought would do great have not. Obviously, anything with a physical aspect to it has done poorly. Anything where you have to go do sales in person or you're running a brick-and-mortar shop, those places are really struggling right now. It's very difficult.

We've had a number of clients in those spaces – we had some dog trainers that are not able to do their work anymore. We had some construction places that aren't able to do their work anymore. There's a lot of places like that. That was I think an assumption that everyone had.

Entertainment, digital media has gone way up, which has been really interesting. I think everyone kind of assumed that as well. Netflix is killing it. Telecommunications, of course – Zoom, we've all heard what's going on there, but that's been crazy. There's all these new telecommunications companies coming out of the woodwork because working from home is the new normal. I think both of those, people knew that that was coming.

The one that's been really interesting to me, though, is online info products, especially higher tier ones, because I expected that people have less money, they have less disposable income; they're not going to be dropping $300, $500, $1,000 on info products and learning products. And I was wrong. Across the board, we've seen most niches of info products actually increasing in sales.

Masterminds are increasing. A lot of events that have gone virtual, those are all improving. Specific niches – like I have a friend who is in the jobs space, and that of course has gone down because no one's going to work. But most places for general online learning have been increasing, and it's been very interesting to see that.

ROB: Very interesting. I'm getting bombarded with ads for ClassPass – not ClassPass, rather, but Masterclass. ClassPass is probably having a hard time with their gym passes.

KEITH: Right. [laughs]

ROB: Masterclass for sure. So, it's interesting to hear those trends. When we look a little bit at your journey, Keith, talk about the transition from agency world to product world a little bit more. Was that a gradual transition, and one day you just realized where you wanted to be? Or was there a very decisive moment where you threw a switch?

KEITH: It's a little bit of both, to be honest. I'm kind of risk-averse, I guess I would say. We were probably 6 years into the agency at this point, and our whole thing was we help people with launches, we help people optimize their marketing funnels. So, we're dealing with clients who, when they do a launch, they do $5-12 million launches. We bust our butts, and it's really rough, and then we see the same retainer, the same pay rate for that client that we do for any other client. So, we help make a $10 million launch and then we're just sitting there at the same point.

After doing a number of these, we got to the point where we were like, "We know all the parts of this; why can't we do this for ourselves?", as I think many people do. We're a bunch of developers. We really like developing, and we had done the marketing, so we said, "Why don't we try to build our own software?" We had about two weeks of downtime where we knew we weren't going to have any client work, and we said, "We're going to sit down for two weeks and build this thing."

And we did. We launched it I think a month and a half later, because building it and launching it are two completely different things, and it was always something that we were going to continuously work on in order to improve, and eventually that was going to take over the revenue for the agency. We were going to slowly transition from agency work to working on Segmetrics as it became more popular.

We jumped up, we had really good MRR [Monthly Recurring Revenue] in the first month, and then it just plateaued for the next 3 years. [laughs] We didn't really lose any MRR; we didn't really gain any MRR. It just kind of sat there, and occasionally we'd fix things, but there was no focus on it. This was the main problem that we had for many years, which was "We have this great piece of software that we're using internally for all our customers, but how do we focus on it?"

Focusing on the software is easy because we're all developers. Focusing on the marketing is harder because marketing is not something that you can sit down for an hour or two hours and bang out. Marketing is an overall idea and understanding of your customers. There's customer research. There's a lot of that goes into it. What we were finding was we couldn't make the time to do it.

ROB: I think many services firms have that challenge. It's sort of the "cobbler's children have no shoes" scenario. How do you look at turning that corner? What started to unlock for you? Because that's a problem even for any given agency, I think.

KEITH: Yeah, definitely. Just look at most agency websites. They don't usually build them internally because they don't have the time or the energy, or it makes more sense to go work on client work. Back when I was a salaryman, we actually had a group of five agencies and we were all friends with each other, and we would build each other's websites. We'd hire each other to build the other one's website because we weren't going to do it ourselves. [laughs]

So, we tried a number of things. If you know 37signals, who did Basecamp, they were an agency originally. They're probably the unicorn of that agency turning into a SaaS company. They did the Fridays. They said, "We don't do any client work on Fridays, and we're only going to work on our own stuff." We tried that; that didn't really work. We tried "After 3:00, we're not going to work on client stuff." That didn't work.

We tried a lot of different things, and we never really were able to get any traction on any of them. I think that a lot of it was just mental, because it's things like – let's take the Friday for example. We worked really hard on clients Monday through Thursday; now we're going to work on our own stuff, and we're just exhausted from 4 days of working on client stuff. And then we also need to reset and say, "Where were we last Friday when we left off?" So, there's this huge gap of what we did then, what the priorities are, if the priorities have shifted. Half the day is then essentially wasted getting back up to speed on what we were doing last week.

We had the same problem with doing afternoons. After 3:00, we would work on our own stuff, or after 2:00 or whenever we decided to make that break, and the issue was for the entire morning, we're focused on a very input-output type of work style. Client says, "I need these six things," we produce those six things, we know the agency has made six things' worth of money. It's a very transactional idea.

Being able to translate from that into "Okay, now we need a marketing campaign. When are we doing this marketing campaign?" "I don't know, we need to figure it out" – going from this transactional to this creative side of things was very difficult for everyone.

Those were really the two main challenges we had. How do you shift from a transactional mindset with the agency and with client work to an almost blue-sky, "We don't know what the answer is here"? usually when we're working with clients, they have a strong readership, they have a strong brand. They've gotten to a certain point where we are iterating on a foundation that they've made. But we're now having to build that foundation from scratch.

Starting over from that and not knowing where to go, and to have to spend that time to do it, was very difficult, making that mental shift every day or every week.

ROB: You knew yourself as a customer. You knew what you needed. You built technology to do what you needed. But it seems like there was probably a stage of getting to know your own customer better, which we all need to do. How did you take the steps to get to know that customer well enough to speak their language and really market well to them?

KEITH: Lots of customer calls is honestly the only way. We talked with our agency friends, got on calls with them. Made it very obvious that they weren't sales calls, but essentially saying, "Hey, I want to show you this. What is the value for you?" We knew what the value for us was. We knew what the values for our customers was as an agency. But one thing we've learned is that every single marketer is different, and every single marketer wants different things, and they all have it set up differently. Honestly, that's the most painful thing out of all of it.

We take something simple like recurring payments – there's 101 ways to set up recurring payments for a product. Maybe it's an invoice that gets an extra payment on it. Maybe it's multiple invoices. Maybe it's not even called an invoice, but a recurring – there's just so many things that come in, and everyone has set them up differently, even within similar systems. This was the first time where we realized, oh crap, everyone's doing something different; we need to figure out how to support everyone in a single bucket.

So yeah, it was just talking with a lot of agencies. A lot of the things we ran into with the agencies were not actually technical at all. They were more like, "This is great. I really want to start using this. We don't have the time to set this up. We just signed up for someone else who does something similar, and it's been sitting there for 3 months because no one has the time to do anything with it."

ROB: Even with one of the simple things that you were involved in with Segmetrics, when I see lead tracking – we actually had an experiment we did with some agencies that we know involving simple things: how do you get very regimented about your UTM tracking, and how do you do this right? Can you get involved in publishing content and ads and whatnot so that it's easier to close the loop on a transaction? Everybody does it differently. Some people say "That's not important to me"; some people say "That's confusing." And yet I know myself, coming from an engineering background, there's a part of me that screams out and says, "Don't you see? This is a really good way to do things." [laughs]

One thing I notice when I look at your product platform and some of the things that it does – and we don't talk a lot about products on this podcast, but I think it's worth reflecting on, especially from your background. I see this different DNA of how to efficiently run an agency well. You want to know when someone's not paying you. You know that talking to a client every week, giving them feedback on what you've done for them every week, can be a good practice to do that a lot of people don't get around to.

How do you strike that balance of the stuff you feel like you strongly know somebody should do and whether or not they're ready to do it? I think we all have those things we feel like we ought to do. We ought to eat our vegetables, but we're not ready to, business-wise or at dinner.

KEITH: It's rough. You know the old saying: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. There's a number of things that we want people to do. There's a number of things that we want people to think of when they're doing analytics. The only thing we can do is really educate them.

We produce a lot of content about teaching people how to market. We have onboarding calls and we have hand-holding, done-for-you services and stuff. But the education side, especially when you're targeting agencies, is tough because they think they already know what they know. That's one of the biggest issues I think we have, which is we want to teach people that you should really use UTM values, and they're like, "We haven't used them up until now and we've been doing fine." I'm like, "Well…"

It's funny because I think the biggest hurdle we have is getting people's tracking set up correctly – installing the snippet, making sure those ad IDs and those UTMs are installed. We have a number of customers who are more technical, and they have literally perfect analytics. 100% attribution of every single click, and it is beautiful. I love it. And then I work with some people and I'm like, "None of your ads are set up correctly." They're like, "Oh, we threw it over to the ad guy and he never set it up." It's just so frustrating; it's been like 3 weeks, and why have they not added this ad snippet in?

It's just very frustrating that because I'm technical and I understand the technology of how the web and marketing on the web works, I consider it a foregone conclusion that these are the things you need to do to set up. What I'm realizing is that a lot of marketers do not understand how the internet works and how marketing on the internet works.

I think this is a difference of marketing now versus marketing 10 years ago, when you had to build everything yourself. Most people just see, "I have this landing page builder, I slap in this iframe, and then I'm good to go," because from their perspective, it works. But that's not actually how anything is working, and there's a lot of magic going on in the background that they can't see and they don't understand as to how it's actually working. As long as it's working for them, they're like, "Everything's good." But then something breaks and they have no idea why.

We had one customer we were looking at and they weren't getting – and this is amazing, I think, with the software. This is also what we found when we did the agency stuff. The biggest value we provided to new customers was telling them where the holes were in their funnel. And sometimes these holes were not like, "Not many people are clicking on this." It was "This campaign is not hooked up to anything" or "Your webinar is not sending in any leads to your marketing, so you have 5,000 leads that have never gotten an email from you." We find this all the time, and it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating, both for them and for us.

ROB: You've dialed in with being able to lead a horse to water. The follow-on from that we don't think about as much is really that you learn this often in relationships. You can't change people for the most part, but you can be there and help them and be helpful to them when they make a decision to change. It seems like that's a lot of times what marketing around this kind of product can be.

I think there's an interesting thread I want to pull on here. You mentioned your own agency making a transition into a product and 37signals making a transition into a product. What do you think it is, perhaps – and maybe you've seen some other examples – that is in the DNA of an agency that makes it possible for them to make a jump into product? I think a lot of agency owners want to, and even spend a little bit of their engineering bench time to build something, but there is a wide chasm to cross past that. What do you think makes it work?

KEITH: I don't know exactly, and that's because I don't think that we were able to make it work while we were an agency. But I think that you can't look at the product as a side hustle. It has to be part – we did not really start growing Segmetrics until we decided, "Hey, we're shutting down the agency. We're going to start moving everyone off and we're going to focus on this full-time."

It wasn't like we fired all the clients that day, but we made a very distinct decision that "We are not focusing on getting new clients. As client contracts are over, we're not going to renew them and we're just going to keep going down this path of software because that's where we want to go as the agency."

It has to be buy-in from everyone. We had some people who either did not or could not make that transition mentally, or didn't want to, and that's fine. But if we were to keep those people on and we were to keep going half-kilter at it, we were never going to succeed, because we had done the half-kilter thing for 3 years and it just doesn't grow like that. You have to be all-in. Or at least have that all-in as the final goal.

ROB: Were there some roles that were more or less receptive to the transition than others?

KEITH: Yes. I think there were some roles, but also just some people because of the way that – we were talking about that transactional idea where a client says "Do this," you work for an hour, you complete that, the client is happy, and you know that you made the agency 1 hour's worth of money. With software, it's completely different. You could work for 8 hours and not produce anything because it was the wrong thing, or even if you did something awesome and everyone's happy, it doesn't actually result in any money. That was a very hard mental thing that was not role-specific, but a mental thing that needed to be addressed.

One of the harder ones was account managers, because as an agency, you have to have an account manager, and only now are we starting to go back into account managers in Segmetrics because we just didn't need them. We needed support people, but that's very different than an account manager. We couldn't afford to have an account manager for every single customer that we had, especially when a customer is paying you $100-200 instead of $5,000 a month. It doesn't make sense at that scale.

It was interesting, because I thought support was going to be very similar to account management, and it is not. It's a very different skillset. You need very different tools, and getting a new support person, getting support to work with Segmetrics was very difficult just because it was so different than anything we had done before.

ROB: As you were talking about the account size required to support an account manager, it made me think of another example of what we're talking about here of an agency transitioning into a tech company, which was MailChimp. MailChimp started off as a web design shop and now is this huge, massive email marketing platform with hundreds and hundreds of people onboard.

When you're charging $20 bucks a month for email marketing, you can't put an account manager on that. You can hardly spend an hour on them. But you can scale support. Support is a process of scale, I would argue, largely of consistency, of knowing when something needs to be escalated and when it doesn't, where the answers are, and how to help people find the answers. That may be overly simple. You probably have a better pulse on it than I do here. How would you distinguish it?

KEITH: I think that's exactly right. It's very different than an account manager, where it's not about necessarily solving the issue directly, where support is, but more of that overall keeping in touch and relationship with them. It's more of an emotional thing than support is.

ROB: Keith, what is coming up for Segmetrics and perhaps for broader marketing that you're excited about? We all need some things to be excited about in these moments, and I think many of us are finding them. What's exciting you?

KEITH: Going outside at some point. [laughs] Being over quarantine would be great. Man, that's a hard question because there's so many things that I want to do and that we're working on that excite me.

One personal thing that I'm excited about with Segmetrics is that we're actually releasing our first paper book in May, and I just got the proof for it yesterday, so I'm pretty excited about that. It's something that we've been working on for – even from the agency days, I had originally done a video course that never got produced, and we decided, "Hey, this is some great content. We really need to put this together into a book." So, I've been writing that for a while. Really happy about that.

Overall, with Segmetrics, I don't know. I don't know what I'm excited about next. The long, slow SaaS ramp of death I think is what they call it, and I think we're right in the middle of that right now. I have a list of features and new things and new ideas that we're super excited about, but it's just doing them. It's out of that exciting, blue sky phase and more into the "Okay, time to put our pedal to the metal and actually get this stuff done."

One thing that we did that I'm happy about is – I think I mentioned that we're bringing some account managers back, and what we decided to do is start working with agencies and companies that are signing up and providing them an account manager and getting them set up and having someone come in and configure all their campaigns and do all that. That's something I'm excited about that's hopefully going to be kicking off at the end of this month.

ROB: Excellent. And where do we find your book when your book is available?

KEITH: The book will be on Amazon. We're probably also going to have it on the site, but it's going to be on Amazon. It's called The 90-Minute Guide to Building Marketing Funnels That Convert.

ROB: Excellent. That sounds very practical and like something we all need to think about.

KEITH: I read a lot of marketing books. I read a lot of business books, and I always hate that they're really fluffy. They're also only half the size they need to be. I was talking to a friend about this who's a writer, an author in the industry, and I said I was reading Ryan Holiday's book – I'm trying to remember what the name of it was – and I'm like, "It was great up until the halfway point and then he started repeating the same stories. It was like he was rehashing the first half of the book."

He's like, "Well yeah, a book has to be 175 pages. It cannot be shorter than that. If you only have enough content for half, the publisher will say, 'Write a second half that's just rehashing it.'" I hate that.

ROB: Was this The Obstacle Is the Way or one of those?

KEITH: No, I think it was his first main one that he did. I can't for the life of me remember which one it is. But I've always hated that, and I've always hated the extra – I like the stories because you have to get emotionally involved and you have to have a connection with the reader, but at the same time, at some point I just want to know "these are the six things you need to do, these are why they work, and here's my experience with them."

So that's what I've really tried to do with this book, is really put it down into "here's the theory, here's the reasons, here's what you need to do." Hopefully it'll do that.

ROB: Keith, when people want to find you and Segmetrics, where should they go to track you down?

KEITH: Segmetrics is segmetrics.io. We're also on Twitter. I am Keith Perhac, also on Twitter. I am literally the only Keith Perhac in the world that I know of, so it's very easy to find me. And if you search far enough on Google, you will find things that I am still trying to bury 20 years later. [laughs]

ROB: [laughs] We won't put those in the show notes.

KEITH: Good, good. That's the problem with having a very unique name. You can never escape Google.

ROB: Understood. Keith, thank you for coming on the podcast.

KEITH: Thank you so much for having me.

ROB: All the best for you and your team. Be well.

KEITH: Definitely.

ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.