Ian Leslie joins James Smith to unpack the uncomfortable truth about honesty: we can't actually handle it. A bestselling author and host of the Where Shall We Meet podcast, Ian argues that lying isn't a bug in human nature but an evolutionary feature — the very thing responsible for our big brains, our creativity, and our capacity for art.
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James opens up about being honest with his employees, hiring a brutally candid editor for his next book, and how a rugby coach telling him he "played like shit" taught him more than any polite feedback ever could.
He explains:
◼️ Why lying is a sign of intelligence, creativity and empathy in children
◼️ How the online world breeds dishonesty
◼️ Why office politics is passive aggression at scale
◼️ How trust is the prerequisite for any productive disagreement
◼️ Why sport is civilisation's greatest cage for our warrior instincts
Chapters:
00:00 Why Lying Is Hardwired Into Our Intelligence
01:22 The Problem With Honesty Is We Can't Handle It
03:14 The Invention of Lying and Useful Deception
06:12 Why Lying Sits in Our Moral Grey Zone
08:37 When Your Child Should Start Lying to You
10:48 Autism, Theory of Mind and Honesty
12:01 Conformity as a Form of Social Lying
14:30 Self-Deception and the Lizard Brain
15:59 Cults, Ideologies and Online Group Lies
19:37 Interrogation Tricks and Cognitive Load
22:05 Telling Stories Backwards to Catch Liars
22:46 The Jiu-Jitsu Ringworm Test
25:18 Artists as Legitimised Liars
26:24 Bob Dylan's Reinvention and the Line Between Lying and Art
27:18 Embellishment, Storytelling and Social Incentives
28:50 Advertising as a Lie We Collude In
30:08 Dating Dynamics and Honesty With Women
32:29 Why Honesty Is Your Best Bet in the Long Run
34:09 The Woman Who Lied About Her Age
36:04 Botox, Makeup and Physical Deception
38:13 Height, Ethnicity and the Online Dating Filter
41:13 How Digital Breaks Humans Into Packets
41:56 Why Workplaces Are Full of Bullshit
44:14 Office Politics as Passive Aggression at Scale
45:06 James Getting Dropped From His Rugby Team
47:22 Hiring a Brutally Honest Editor
48:40 Trust as the Prerequisite for Honesty
50:00 The Two Channels of Every Difficult Conversation
52:19 Jiu-Jitsu, Conflict Resolution and Primal Urges
55:06 Sport as Civilisation's Substitute for War
57:37 Michael Jordan as a Roman Warrior
57:58 John Jones and the Beautiful Cage of MMA
58:24 The Ashes, the Barmy Army and Sportsmanship
01:00:24 The Gilded Cage of Rules and Norms
01:01:13 Zero-Sum Games and Honest Feedback
01:03:09 Why Participation Medals Miss the Point
01:05:16 Giving Brutal Feedback on Content
01:07:16 Have You Earned the Right to Be Honest?
01:08:26 Ian's Book: John and Paul — A Love Story in Songs
01:11:22 The Creative Power of Love
This conversation takes a candid look at why deception is woven into the fabric of human intelligence, the corrosive cost of workplaces where nobody says what they think, and the trust that has to exist before honesty can actually land. Ian's perspective on disagreement, creativity and the relationship channel beneath every argument offers a sharp counterpoint to James's trademark bluntness — and the result is a conversation that will change how you think about every hard conversation you've ever avoided.
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