Artists as legitimized liars

Ian Leslie joins James Smith to unpack the uncomfortable truth about honesty: we can't actually handle it. A bestselling author and host of the Where Shall We Meet podcast, Ian argues that lying isn't a bug in human nature but an evolutionary feature — the very thing responsible for our big brains, our creativity, and our capacity for art.

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James opens up about being honest with his employees, hiring a brutally candid editor for his next book, and how a rugby coach telling him he "played like shit" taught him more than any polite feedback ever could.

He explains:

◼️ Why lying is a sign of intelligence, creativity and empathy in children

◼️ How the online world breeds dishonesty

◼️ Why office politics is passive aggression at scale

◼️ How trust is the prerequisite for any productive disagreement

◼️ Why sport is civilisation's greatest cage for our warrior instincts

Chapters:

00:00 Why Lying Is Hardwired Into Our Intelligence

01:22 The Problem With Honesty Is We Can't Handle It

03:14 The Invention of Lying and Useful Deception

06:12 Why Lying Sits in Our Moral Grey Zone

08:37 When Your Child Should Start Lying to You

10:48 Autism, Theory of Mind and Honesty

12:01 Conformity as a Form of Social Lying

14:30 Self-Deception and the Lizard Brain

15:59 Cults, Ideologies and Online Group Lies

19:37 Interrogation Tricks and Cognitive Load

22:05 Telling Stories Backwards to Catch Liars

22:46 The Jiu-Jitsu Ringworm Test

25:18 Artists as Legitimised Liars

26:24 Bob Dylan's Reinvention and the Line Between Lying and Art

27:18 Embellishment, Storytelling and Social Incentives

28:50 Advertising as a Lie We Collude In

30:08 Dating Dynamics and Honesty With Women

32:29 Why Honesty Is Your Best Bet in the Long Run

34:09 The Woman Who Lied About Her Age

36:04 Botox, Makeup and Physical Deception

38:13 Height, Ethnicity and the Online Dating Filter

41:13 How Digital Breaks Humans Into Packets

41:56 Why Workplaces Are Full of Bullshit

44:14 Office Politics as Passive Aggression at Scale

45:06 James Getting Dropped From His Rugby Team

47:22 Hiring a Brutally Honest Editor

48:40 Trust as the Prerequisite for Honesty

50:00 The Two Channels of Every Difficult Conversation

52:19 Jiu-Jitsu, Conflict Resolution and Primal Urges

55:06 Sport as Civilisation's Substitute for War

57:37 Michael Jordan as a Roman Warrior

57:58 John Jones and the Beautiful Cage of MMA

58:24 The Ashes, the Barmy Army and Sportsmanship

01:00:24 The Gilded Cage of Rules and Norms

01:01:13 Zero-Sum Games and Honest Feedback

01:03:09 Why Participation Medals Miss the Point

01:05:16 Giving Brutal Feedback on Content

01:07:16 Have You Earned the Right to Be Honest?

01:08:26 Ian's Book: John and Paul — A Love Story in Songs

01:11:22 The Creative Power of Love

This conversation takes a candid look at why deception is woven into the fabric of human intelligence, the corrosive cost of workplaces where nobody says what they think, and the trust that has to exist before honesty can actually land. Ian's perspective on disagreement, creativity and the relationship channel beneath every argument offers a sharp counterpoint to James's trademark bluntness — and the result is a conversation that will change how you think about every hard conversation you've ever avoided.

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