In The Business of Healthy Masculinity The Power of Healthy Masculinity with Maciej Pawlik
Hi there,
Phew, we made it! The first, and maybe last, sprint of the In The Business of Healthy Masculinity podcast. Episode #25.
If you have listened in at all, please do reply and let me know what you have found interesting, what you disagree with, or anything else.
Let me introduce you to the brilliant mind of Maciej Pawlik:
Maciej Pawlik is a Disaster Scientist studying for a PhD in nature-based disaster resilience at UCL's Department of Risk and Disaster Reduction and Institute of Education.
His research aims to better understand learning processes surrounding nature-based solutions in flood-prone communities to build learning interventions that can help foster disaster resilience across the UK, Japan and beyond.
He also serves as a Climate Ambassador for London, helping schools develop Climate Action Plans and is a Steering Committee Member of the UK Alliance for Disaster Research, supporting early-career researcher development.
Let’s dive in, and please do share any insights or reflections that emerge for you:
Men and women as allies against harmful systems/behaviour
“There’s such a great degree of separation between how we identify as men and women’s identity and women’s suffrage. We should be allies, we should be supporters, we should be doing everything we can to create a more equitable world.” - Maciej Pawlik
There is little I can add to Maciej’s assertion here.
What I will add, however, is that for some reason it is very hard to get business leaders to take the topic of men’s violence seriously. I have tried on multiple occasions to get some organisations to engage around this topic, by suggesting that they become White Ribbon accredited, however this is not deemed as important enough (despite what is going on with the Epstein files!).
Indeed the very reason this In The Business of Healthy Masculinity platform was developed was due to the same insight being shared in Dr Jackson Katz book, Every Man: Why Violence Against Women is a Men’s Issue, and How You Can Make a Difference.
To what extent do you, or would you be willing to call men in for bad or harmful behaviour? Can you remember an example or missed opportunity in recent times?
We have to challenge bad behaviour (unhealthy masculinity)
“Nothing is going to change if we don't challenge bad behaviour and not only call it out, but actually do something about it.” - Maciej Pawlik
Maciej’s comment here hits me straight in the heart!
There was an occasion several years ago when I overheard two leaders within a work organisation discussing the fact they needed to get someone to step into a more senior role within customer service and they thought that Susan (real name protected) would do a good job, but that there was no point asking her as she will likely have kids within the next one-two years.
Susan was not pregnant at the point of this discussion, so it was clear that bias was at play, but I did not have the courage, nor personal accountability, to speak up at that time.
To this day, I hold the frustration that I did not speak up. Whilst this was not harmful from a physical point of view, it is a harmful pattern of behaviour, that is unchallenged, just repeats.
Do you have any stories or examples where you have stayed comfortable rather than speak up? We’d appreciate you sharing in the comments to help build this muscle.
The power of healthy masculinity
“I don’t think it’s right that power should be about subjugation. I think the true meaning of power should be about standing in the way of bullets when others are vulnerable and lifting people out of vulnerability and being able to empower others who are less fortunate than us.” - Maciej Pawlik
Maciej’s perspective is incredibly powerful to me, and this version of (healthy I may add) power is one that I have rarely experienced within a business setting. Certain people I have worked with do model this approach, but at a systems/organisational level, much less so.
This makes sense to some extent as business as we understand it today is mainly about maximising profits, often at literally all costs.
Could you imagine a world where business is part of a connected, more social business system that allows a fair return to be made (of course we will have a different of version of what this could be), leveraging building business and entrepreneurial zeal, but capping the ability for huge disparities in worker to executive ratios, reducing harm by design in supply chains, and building in a fairer, more just payment level to suppliers?
I can imagine this, it’s a stretch, but current world events just reinforce the need for more decentralising of power, in and outside of business spaces.
I am curious, how have you experienced ‘power,’ in good, bad, or other ways, and what does power mean to you personally?
Role modelling healthier masculinity
“I'm polish and the lessons that I was that I was told by many was don't show weakness, don't show emotions, and I don't think that's right” - Maciej Pawlik
What I find most clarifying is how patriarchy has been embedded in men regardless of geography and regardless of language over the past generations.
All of Maciej’s experiences I have experienced as a Brit. Be the man, dont show feelings, dont show weakness, be strong etc We are seeing this unhealthy masculinity, when not balanced with healthy feminine energy, being propagated in the manosphere and other degrading movements founded, I feel, on men’s lack of personal safety/safe spaces, and lower self worth.
What are you doing to break these narratives and patterns in your life, and of those closest to you?
Self-organisation and mutual aid as challengers to harmful systems
“A big challenge to the system is if you can create more networks of knowledge sharing, mutual aid, and break down barriers to resources, to provisions. Because the way that the system works is that if you are dis-empowered, If you lack resources, if you don't know about pathways towards sources of information, then you'll continue to be dis-empowered and you'll be stuck.” - Maciej Pawlik
Hannah Litt (she/her) has been talking about mutual exchange and mutual aid for as long as I have known her (the past few years!).
Access to resources, information, even food, can be gate-kept by power holders and multinational corporations under the current culture that operates. However, what could be possible if we re-imagined a healthy distribution of resources, information, and food?
I learned about the old silk road as part of the Possible Futures Collective Intro to Decolonial Sustainability course, and how trade was effective and much more humane/equitable pre-colonisation, and pre the British-led East-India Company.
What impacts you from Maciej’s comment above and what may ignite curiosity within you as a result?
Until ……… whatever unfolds
We hope that you join us in this exploration, and please do feed back and share with your networks if you are getting value.
Finally, if any of the above questions have ignited curiosity within you, I am here if you are looking for a 1-1 Thinking Partner that can be in your corner by voice note, virtually, and in-person, I have found 5 x 60 minutes calls + unlimited voice note communication to work the best.
If you are ready to embrace the journey towards a healthier relationship with yourself and those around you, and the goodness that brings, at home and at work, drop me a line at garry.turner@radicality.co.uk.
This was the last episode of the current series of the In The Business of Healthy Masculinity podcast.
I’d be grateful if you would leave a review, if you have got value from the conversations, on Apple and/or Spotify.
I will keep in touch periodically as we go forward and as you are still here, what most serve you for us to talk about and/or explore on this platform?
With love
Garry Turner
garry.turner@radicality.co.uk
+44 7928 979358
Get full access to In The Business of Healthy Masculinity at inbusinessofhealthymasculinity.substack.com/subscribe