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From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuo (Facebook VP, Sundial CEO, The Making of a Manager author)

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Sep 21, 2025

Guest

Julie Zhuo

Julie Zhuo, former VP and Head of Design at Facebook and author of The Making of a Manager, shares her insights on crucial manager skills needed in the age of AI. She discusses how to balance gut instinct with data using her 'diagnose with data, treat with design' framework. Julie also reveals how her team accelerates learning with AI and critiques the poor data infrastructure in hypergrowth AI companies. Plus, she offers tips on delivering effective feedback and reflects on what she’s teaching her kids about an AI-driven future.

01:36:24

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Episode notes

Conversational Analytics Demand New Metrics

Conversational products require new analytics methods to infer intent from dialogue.
Use LLMs to bucket intents and measure conversational flow, not page clicks.

Diagnose With Data, Treat With Design

Diagnose problems with data, then design creative solutions to treat them.
Treat quantitative and qualitative signals as complementary evidence, not substitutes.

Be Sturdy And Flexible

Great managers balance being sturdy and flexible — like a willow tree during storms.
You must hold vision while adapting fast to accelerating change.

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Reflecting on The Making of a Manager

05:22 • 4min

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Manager Skills Translate to Managing AI

09:01 • 5min

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Flattening Orgs: Builders, Small Teams, No PMs

14:01 • 8min

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AI as Learning Accelerator and Data Gaps

21:53 • 10min

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Diagnose with Data, Treat with Design

32:19 • 10min

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Manage Yourself and Make Feedback Daily

42:44 • 23min

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Win-Win People Decisions and Creative AI Gifts

01:05:53 • 19min

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Lightning Round: Books, Products, Kids

• Mentioned in 138 episodes

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Robert Pirsig

This classic novel by Robert M. Pirsig is a personal and philosophical odyssey that delves into the author's search for meaning. The narrative follows a father and his son on a summer motorcycle trip from the Midwest to California, intertwining a travelogue with deep philosophical discussions. The book explores the concept of 'quality' and how it informs a well-lived life, reconciling science, religion, and humanism. It also touches on the author's own struggles with his past and his philosophical quest, making it a touching and transcendent exploration of human experience and endeavor.

#155

• Mentioned in 137 episodes

Good Inside

A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be

Becky Kennedy

In 'Good Inside,' Dr. Becky Kennedy shares her parenting philosophy, which focuses on building strong relationships with children rather than merely shaping their behavior. The book critiques traditional parenting methods like reward charts and time-outs, which fail to address children's complex emotional needs. Dr. Kennedy provides actionable strategies and troubleshooting for various parenting challenges, such as sibling rivalry, separation anxiety, and tantrums. Her approach helps parents move from uncertainty and self-blame to confidence and sturdy leadership, emphasizing the importance of compassion and understanding in parenting.

#4416

• Mentioned in 11 episodes

The Making of a Manager

Julie Zhuo

In 'The Making of a Manager,' Julie Zhuo shares her personal journey and insights from her experience as a manager at Facebook. The book emphasizes that great managers are made, not born, and provides practical advice on key aspects of management such as building and nurturing a strong team, running productive meetings, giving feedback, and developing self-awareness. Zhuo highlights the importance of focusing on purpose, people, and process to achieve better outcomes and create a healthy team culture. The book is filled with everyday examples and transformative insights, making it a valuable resource for new and veteran managers alike.

#217

• Mentioned in 107 episodes

High Output Management

Andrew S. Grove

High Output Management is a seminal book by Andrew S. Grove that outlines his management and productivity concepts developed during his tenure at Intel. The book introduces the 'management by objectives' approach, also known as the objectives and key results (OKR) framework. It covers techniques for creating highly productive teams, methods of motivation, and the importance of measurable processes, performance reviews, and training. Grove emphasizes the role of managers in leading and motivating teams, and his book is praised for its practical advice and timeless relevance in various professions and industries.

#4221

• Mentioned in 11 episodes

Conscious Business

Integrating Eastern Philosophies with Economic Principles

Frederic Laloux

Frederic Laloux's "Reinventing Organizations" explores the evolution of organizational structures and proposes a new model for conscious businesses. The book delves into the principles of self-management, purpose-driven work, and evolutionary consciousness. Laloux presents case studies of organizations that have successfully implemented these principles, demonstrating their effectiveness in fostering innovation, engagement, and sustainability. The book challenges traditional hierarchical structures and advocates for a more human-centered approach to management. It's a thought-provoking read for anyone interested in organizational development and creating more fulfilling workplaces.

Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago!

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents

2. How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster

3. The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data

4. Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)

5. How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations

6. What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)

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Brought to you by:

Mercury — The art of simplified finances

DX — The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers

PostHog—How developers build successful products

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Julie Zhuo:

• X: https://x.com/joulee

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/

• Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/

• Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/

• Sundial: https://sundial.so/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Julie!

(05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager

(08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager

(11:38) The future of management roles

(14:00) Empowering teams with AI

(21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI

(26:53) Data analysis in AI companies

(32:02) The role of data in design

(37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era

(40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty

(42:14) Timeless lessons for managers

(49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses

(57:49) Building a feedback culture

(01:05:33) Creating win-win situations

(01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction

(01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups

(01:15:57) AI corner

(01:20:08) Contrarian corner

(01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next

• The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop

• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/

• Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA

• Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/

• Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside

• Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster

• La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365

• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/

• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/

• Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/

• How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast

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Recommended books:

• The Making of a Manager: What to Do when Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0525540423

• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/

• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0061673730

• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020

• Good Inside: A Practical Guide to Resilient Parenting Prioritizing Connection Over Correction: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Inside-Guide-Becoming-Parent/dp/0063159481/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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