Marketing Thought Leader Explores Covid-19 Impact on the Future of Marketing

Mathew Sweezey is the Director of Market Strategy for Salesforce, a company best-known for providing and supporting a cloud-based, cross-departmental customer-relationship-management solution. Salesforce has expanded its offerings to include a broad range of integrated service, marketing, sales, front end, and back end business software. Mathew is an award-winning marketer, podcast host, technology pioneer who writes about consumer behavior, media theory, and new marketing strategies. His publishing credits include AdAge, Brand Quarterly, VentureBeat, Forbes, The Observer, and The Economist.

Twelve years ago, Mathew started a marketing technology company that provided online lead generation. This failed experiment provided him with a valuable education. He joined another startup, Pardot, and initiated its thought-leadership practice. Like a string of ever small fishes being consumed by ever bigger fishes, ExactTarget acquired Pardot and then SalesForce acquired ExactTarget, with Mathew maintaining his ever-expanding role as each-organization's marketing thought leader – exploring the future of marketing. What he learns is communicated internally to guide company direction, externally to customers to help them "better their businesses," and even worldwide to conference attendees in his keynote presentations.

Mathew is the author of "Marketing Automation for Dummies: (2014) and, just-released this year, "The Context Marketing Revolution: How to Motivate Buyers in the Age of Infinite Media" (Harvard Business Press). Mathew started writing this book long before the world heard of Covid-19. As companies reel from the overnight environmental changes wrought by this virus, his message is acutely "on target" . . . suddenly the whole world has had to figure out a new way to interact. In this interview, he discusses the changes marketers will need to make to meet the challenges of a "changed environment."

Mathew spent 5 years researching over 20,000 global consumers and over 20,000 brands and then looked at the general marketplace. He reminds us that, when we have a specific environment, we play a game that fits that environment. When the environment changes, the game, likewise, must change.

Mathew says that today's consumers produce the largest amount of noise (their devices are second). He believes the consumer now controls the environment, which changes marketing's requirements dramatically. Marketing is no longer just a message . . . it is an experience. Purchases now are not just a single "click-here-and-buy decision," but rather a process of guiding a customer along a curated journey. To "cut through the noise," companies will need to be agile, distribute marketing functions throughout the organization, build strong relationships with their customers, master internal alignment, continue to invest in strategy, and experiment and adapt rapidly.

From all this research, Mathew believes he has identified the key to the success of today's high-performance marketing organizations . . . executive buy-in to this "new idea of marketing." With the Covid-19 challenge, he would like to help people understand what we should be thinking about, how we plan a road for recovery, and how, specifically, we deliver moving forward. Context, he says, is a "significant part of what consumers are going to demand."

The Salesforce website is: https://www.salesforce.com/. Mathew can be reached on Twitter at: @msweezey. To schedule time to talk with him one-on-on-one, reach out to him on LinkedIn. "The Context Marketing Revolution: How to Motivate Buyers in the Age of Infinite Media," is available on Amazon.

Transcript Follows:

ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Mathew Sweezey. Mathew is the Director of Market Strategy for Salesforce. He's an accomplished public speaker, podcaster, and author of the forthcoming book, The Context Marketing Revolution, published by Harvard Business. Welcome to the podcast, Mathew.

MATHEW: Rob, it's so great to be here and talk with you again.

ROB: For sure. For those who don't know, Matthew and I go back a little ways from Atlanta; he has since moved on to the beach, basically, I think. But I think that actually transitions well to you telling us a little bit about yourself, your journey, and what might be called a dream job for a marketer.

MATHEW: Myself, just a guy that loves marketing, let's start there. The journey really on this current path started, I don't know, 12 years ago when I had a startup. We were a marketing technology company. Essentially, we're doing online lead generation, lead arbitrage for an SEO term.

That then ran for about 2 years. Lost a lot of money, learned a lot of stuff. Shut that down and went to work for another startup, which became a great success, out of Atlanta, Pardot. I was Employee 13. I helped grow that company up, and then we were acquired by another company called Exact Target, and I transitioned to the thought leadership team there. I had started the thought leadership practice at Pardot, and then we continued that at Exact Target.

Then we were acquired by Salesforce, and then that led me to the thought leadership side of Salesforce, which is where I reside now. I'm really focused on the future of marketing and on that POV for the organization. So that's the nutshell of where I came from and what I do.

ROB: That's a pretty awesome journey. Very few people get to take that rollercoaster ride from 13 people to acquired, acquired, public company now. I think unless people are really deep into enterprise marketing stacks, they might find it counterintuitive to have strong marketing thought leadership within Salesforce. There's that typecast view of Salesforce, obviously, on the sales side because sales is in the name.

But tell me a little bit about how even with the acquisition, marketing has come to the forefront of Salesforce and how Salesforce as a whole thinks about marketing, and then within the marketing cloud and where that's leading.

MATHEW: Marketing is a wide, wide, wide swath. The larger the organization you are, the more facets and the more things it comes to represent. Really at the heart of all of our marketing is helping us connect companies with their customers in new and better ways.

Most people know us as the CRM platform. Yes, that's definitely where we started; now we're the number one provider of probably 5 or 6 different business software categories, from service, marketing, sales, there's frontend, backend – there's a whole platform and range of things. That's a large swath.

Where my role fits in is helping on two fronts, really diving into looking at what the future looks like to help roll that back in to internal insights as to what we should be thinking about moving forward, and also then helping roll that information and those insights directly to our customers through one-on-one meetings, through lots of different formats, as well as then writing an onstage presence in traditional conferences and keynotes.

For us, marketing is a wide range of things. You can look at the brand aspects, the one-to-one aspects, the events. There's so many different facets. But really the heart of all of that is helping our customers be better at business and really helping them connect to their customers.

ROB: That's such a good big picture view. You mentioned conferences. We were originally supposed to meet up in person in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest. You were going to hop on up and give a talk, talking about this new book that you've got coming, The Context Marketing Revolution.

Amidst the disappointment of not meeting up and South by Southwest being cancelled in this COVID-19 crisis that we are in the middle of, give us the picture of the context marketing revolution and some of what you were excited to share but didn't get to, but you can get to now.

MATHEW: Part of my job is doing a lot of research. Over the past 4 or 5 years now, we've really done a lot of research looking into the key traits of high-performing organizations. That's based on multiple largescale surveys, doing both surveys from consumer sides, brand side – we've looked at 20,000+ consumers globally, about 20,000+ brands over the past 4 years globally, and then combining that with looking at the marketplace at large.

What I was realizing was there was something that was fundamentally different going on, and a lot of people were simply missing the boat. That's really where this idea of context marketing revolution comes in. It's two basic aspects.

One is the basic concept that the idea we have of marketing, we can no longer iterate upon because it was an idea that we created at a different point in time, and marketing is a game that we play given the specifics of an environment. It's game theory. Given an environment, we play a specific game. When the environment changes, we have to change that game.

The environment has changed so much that we have to change the very fundamental idea of what this thing marketing even means. This means a whole new role, scope, and function, not just how we take that thing we know and apply new things to it. So that's where the word "revolution" comes in.

Then the idea of context is essentially the antithesis of attention. The old foundation of marketing was let's grab someone's attention and come up with some creative way to get them to do what we want them to do. The reality is, now that the entire environment is controlled by the consumer, and to reach them you have to go through multiple layers of AI, through multiple channels – all consumers now, all purchases, are journeys – what we must realize is, one, breaking through, now the foundational element is context, helping them accomplish a goal in a moment.

Two is that to motivate a decision, now all decisions are considered, so now our goal must not be to get them to take the final action, but simply guide them to the next step and continue to do that multiple times, and that is how we motivate modern consumers to act.

Looking at all of that and taking in the big scale, that was the big thing I was hoping to write about in the book, to show the number one key trait that high performers have right now, high-performing marketing organizations, is executive buy-in to a new idea of marketing. It's not new marketing ideas; it's a radically new idea. That's what I was so excited about to get out with this book.

Then this whole thing happened, and now this book is even more relevant because the things that we may not have thought about – we're talking about radical change in the marketplace. A lot of people say, "Yeah, that may affect your demographic, but not my demographic." The reality is, the entire world was forced into a new way of connecting and communicating overnight.

My father is 75 years old, doesn't know how to use a smartphone; is now having to do Bible studies via Zoom over a smartphone and figure that out overnight. Large scales of the population are going to be operating and expecting different things, and they're going to expect us to accomplish their goals in hand. I'm going to stop with that and turn it back over to you, Rob.

ROB: Especially in this moment, people don't even know what they want. They don't know what they need. We're all a little bit discombobulated and need someone who cares about our lives, who actually thinks about what we need rather than someone who is going to tell us what we need. There's some stuff you just can't tell people they need, and there's some ways you need to tell them differently.

You were scheduled to speak at a conference, go on a book tour – all of that is necessarily in the trash, but you still have a book coming out. How have you even thought about remixing the book launch process amidst this change?

MATHEW: Yeah, it's difficult. I think the number one thing I can do is no one cares that you have a book, right? It's like, "Cool, you've got a book coming out." No one cares. We all have problems. We're all trying to figure out how we take what we were planning on doing and either salvage those efforts or redo those efforts. So everyone's got a lot of work on their plate, and it's happening rapidly fast.

The best thing that I can help people do right now is understand, number one, what we should be thinking about, and number two, how we then plan for a road for recovery. The good part is context is a part of both of those answers. It's not the only answer, but it's definitely a significant part of what consumers are going to demand, and then the specifics of how we deliver that moving forward.

What I've done is set up personal time. I've opened up my personal calendar to anybody. In fact, there's a post that went up in LinkedIn this morning that says if you want to schedule time with me, I'm more than happy to have any of these conversations with just you one-on-one – this is not a webcast; let's just talk one-on-one. So I'm trying to do those efforts.

Definitely reaching out personally to everyone in my network to ask for a hand, let them know what I'm helping out with, so that if anyone that they know needs that help, they can get that information to them, as well as saying, "Hey listen, I need a hand too. If you could simply let one other person know about this, that would be a big help to me right now."

Those are the ways that I'm trying to pivot in this current time, as well as just continue to transition a lot of the other efforts from physical to virtual and just take the rest day by day, like everyone else.

ROB: Right. It's definitely been a reset, and I think it's been really helpful, because I had to go into my own business to reach out to some people that I'd worked with before about maybe working together again on some things. In the first couple of days after everybody went remote and everybody shut down business as usual, I struggled a little bit. I said, what is the appropriate way to even reach out to these people?

It's human, and it's also realizing that even in this disruption, there are still ways – we all need help, and some of that help is business, and we all need to be thinking about how to help each other rather than how to sell each other stuff. It's actually a really good reminder, I think.

MATHEW: Yeah. If we look just as a basic roadmap – in the book, I talk about the 5 elements of context: available, permission, personal, authentic, and purposeful. If we ground our efforts in those 5 elements, we will be fine moving forward.

Available. How do we make sure the information and our help is in the way that they want it and where they want it? If they're asking questions, we need to make sure we have answers for those questions and that they're easy to find. That means a single central source of information.

Starbucks is doing a great example of this right now. They've got a page of how they're moving everything that they can do in one place. From a business standpoint and a marketing standpoint, we must do this not only for our customers; we also must do this for our partners and all stakeholders at large, as well as our employees.

When we're communicating with people, we need to make sure we have the permission to communicate with people and that we're using that permission appropriately. There was a great comic that came out today from Tom Fishburne – he's a comedian, he's a comic. The comic is there's this person reading an email and they turn to their spouse on the couch and say, "Hey, this is great. The company we haven't heard from in 5 years just reached out to let us know how they're going to do things during this current crisis."

It's like, if people aren't engaging with you for 5 years and you're now reaching out to them, they probably don't care. You're probably just now spamming them and flooding their inbox and probably just causing things they don't want.

Then we continue down. It's personal. It's not just how personalized we can take a mass message and personalize mass messaging; it's how personally can we actually deliver that message? Human to human, how many people can we connect together? That's really one of the big things we're finding. People are learning to connect without us in new ways. They are easily being able to make connections via all types of new methodologies – working from home, and we talked about Zoom, we talked about all these other things. We need to also be a part of that, whether that is us connecting our advocates to other people, whether that's us connecting our employees and delivering these messages.

Then finally, the last two, authentic and purposeful. These messages have to be authentic. What we need to think about in that word is empathy. We have to be empathetic. And to be empathetic, that means you have to have constant conversations with your audience to know what is empathetic right now, and that's going to change day to day. You need to be having conversations with them to find out what those things are.

The last element is purposeful. We need to find ways that are purpose-driven, and there's tons of examples right now. One, you could simply find a new way to use your products. You could come up with purpose-driven efforts.

Nuun is doing a great example. They're creating care packages. If you're not familiar with Nuun, if you're an adventure athlete or an athlete, Nuun is a thing we drop in water that's full of electrolytes to keep us going. But who needs to keep going right now are healthcare workers, so they're asking their audience, "Tell us who your healthcare workers are so we can send them care packages." Lessonly created a coloring book so parents that are working from home can simply print out a coloring book for their kids to play with, to help keep them busy.

Chipotle is focusing on safety. They've created new ways to ensure that the delivery food is tamper-proof. They've enhanced the functionality to know where your order is to make sure that this whole delivery to home is a seamless and as best an experience as it can be at the current point in time.

If we can ground our efforts in those 5 things, we will be contextually marketing and will be poised to break through and still drive growth during this current point in time.

ROB: Right, and it's all super necessary. The available, personal, permission, purposeful, authentic – if you're missing some of those elements, if you're not authentic, if you're not purposeful right now, it's going to come across very, very wrong in the moment of what people are dealing with. If you're not thinking about the personal, where people are and why you need to communicate a message of food safety – because you could copy Chipotle's message and it still wouldn't necessarily resonate, depending on who you are.

As we're sitting here and looking at perhaps an accelerant for some of this revolution – or maybe it's even a necessity more than ever – when did this revolution start, and what fueled the growth and tipping over of the revolution?

MATHEW: The revolution is a direct response to a market change, and that market change is the fundamental aspect. This is like hardcore, fundamental scientific theory of what we should be thinking about. It's media strategy, media theory. Essentially what we look at is, who does the media environment operate for?

There was a specific date I was able to find out through research. Up until 2009, we lived in a world that was specific. It was called a limited media environment, and that means media was limited in three specific factors: creation, distribution, and access. Given those factors, it operated for brands. We were the ones who had the capital to break through. We could pay to have content created; we could pay to have content distributed, as well as there was a limited amount of content, so the noise we had to break through was a certain type and a certain way. It created a certain game.

But then you start thinking about, what happened when consumers started to be able to create their own content? That really started back with the invention of email, and it's continued forward and has exacerbated over time. We don't really think about how radical today is from 2007, but it's radical.

Just think about this: the amount of data we create per day today is 500 times more than the amount of day we created per day in 2007. The amount of mobile connections is 30 times greater than in 2007. The largest human gatherings are 100 times that size. We have 1.6 billion daily active users on Facebook. That's 800 times the size of what it was in 2007. It's a radically different era.

What we live in now is the infinite media era, and that's what really is causing this revolution, because now the entire environment operates for the individual. The consumer is the largest creator of noise; number two is their devices. So how we as marketers break through is radically different. And then because there's infinite information, how they make decisions is radically different. That is the cause of this revolution. It's really a shift in media environments, from the limited media era to the infinite media era.

What we see now is just an exacerbation of these things. Now consumers' lives – what I say is the tinder was there. All of these elements were there and the change was happening, but what happened is this current scenario sparked that tinder, and it went wildfire. Populations that would've taken 5-10 years to really adapt to these changes had to adapt overnight, and they just adapted. That's really where the revolution came from and what's driving this.

ROB: That makes sense. It went from very slow, to your point, to very fast. There was a time of television monoculture, of three national networks. What I hear you getting at is the filter was the media, and now the filter is all the way down to the person. And we had a couple of middle roads there. We had cable, and cable got more and more and more cable, so you were a little bit of a filter, but the brands still had access to shoot content through a cannon at you. Now it really is each person can turn you on or turn you off as a marketer. It's getting more and more overwhelming.

MATHEW: Yeah, and increasingly so, the consumer doesn't have to, because the environment is doing it for them. That's really the underlying factor we need to think about. Between you and them in any medium is a layer of artificial intelligence, and that AI is optimizing for the context of the moment. That's why context is the foundational element.

Look at anything. If you do a Google search, we can all ask the same question, but we will all receive a different answer based on us in context – who we are, where we are. If we look at a social media feed, they're not chronological feeds. They're contextual feeds that AI is optimizing for whatever you're going to engage with most, which is the most contextual thing for you in that moment.

You start to look at how modern media formats operate – TikTok doesn't even have timestamps on posts. You can resort and resift infinitely, and you never even think about time. It's only to the context of the moment. The time doesn't matter.

That's really the underlying thing we have to think about. Context is what now the modern environment operates for. And if you can't create that, you're going to be filtered out. The environment is going to filter you out on its own because it's optimizing for the individual, not optimizing for the brands.

ROB: That's fascinating even to think about TikTok. I'm not certainly in the core demographic of TikTok, and I hadn't even noticed the timestamp, but it does make sense because within that platform, there are hashtags and there are memes and there are moments, and that's the context. The context is not the time; the context is did you catch the wave when it was going through the platform, or were you late? Or did you happen to make content that intersects with something 4 months from now and then you're back in context, you're back relevant. The algorithm may even resurface you. Is that the direction?

MATHEW: Exactly right.

ROB: Right on. A lot of our audience for this podcast is in the marketing agency world, and I'm sure plenty of agencies intersect with your world; I'm sure you speak to plenty of people. One of the things I think may be starting to tip over now is there are some very traditional structures for teams that work on brands, that work on marketing content. How do you think we're going to need to change the structure of those teams, the composition of those teams as we are heading into this context world, this revolution, where we can't ignore and we can't just make a content pipeline the same way?

MATHEW: There's lots of answers to this question. There's lots of factors. The easy answer is the top of the line is agile. We all have to change the way that we structure and think about work, and that means really moving to an agile format. That's the simple answer, and essentially that just means data-driven and iterative at a very high level. You can go very specific and say agile organization, agile agency, agile workflow.

The second is the concept of distributed marketing job. There used to be the concept that the marketing department was the department who created marketing. That's not true anymore because marketing is no longer just a message. Marketing is now an experience, and if all departments now have customer-facing experiences, we must realize that all of these people are now marketers.

If we're thinking about this from a brand standpoint, now what we must have is a distributed marketing role. What I believe is going to be happening is we're going to find citizen marketers. The term "citizen" essentially means any person that's not an expert in a field being enabled by artificial intelligence to be about 90% proficient as a trained expert.

So what we're going to find is we're going to be able to empower just about anybody inside an organization with technology and artificial intelligence to allow them to be hyper-efficient marketers. That's how we're going to see marketing distributed across the organization.

What that means is now who runs marketing needs to be elevated, and there needs to be a CXO or CGO – chief experience officer, chief growth officer – who's monitoring all these experiences and optimizing for the most efficient customer journey that optimizes for the best experience. So those are a couple of ways I think we're going to start to see things change in terms of the way that we work and how we operate.

ROB: Really, really interesting. One thing that I think about is you talk about people creating content. Obviously, as we can see from Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and all of that, the quality of content that an individual can make is ever escalating. There are one-person teams that can do amazing things, and because of that it's efficient for them to target perhaps a very small or giant audience in a large and interconnected world.

But within that context of increasing content quality and volume, what then is the place for people who are still trying to deploy very large, ambitious projects to create content, to create relevant messages for people? How can they think about that? Is there a budget that can be too big in this new era?

MATHEW: Let's tackle the first one. I don't think there's ever a budget that can be too big. We can always find ways to do more stuff and test new ideas. But I think what we need to really think about is it doesn't matter if you're going to create something small or create something big. The whole point is the modern media environment operates for the individual. If you are thinking about creating something and then trying to come up with a creative way to put that in the marketplace, you're fundamentally flawed in your strategy to begin with. We must realize how to work with our audience, not how we work on our audience.

There's a major problem we're going to face, and that is the content conundrum – because like you said, if an individual now can create content at such a high level, who are we competing with? We are now competing with an infinite amount of people, creating an infinite amount of content. That radically changes how we think about content creation, in two ways. One, how much we have to create. I firmly believe that we're going to have to move into a fast advertising and fast content model, just like fast fashion has moved into a fast fashion model.

Delta, great example. You get on a Delta flight, you don't see the exact same Delta safety video every time. Every month they put a new safety video on. Why? Because it's empathetic. We must realize that we can't put one storyline out into a marketplace and expect that to keep people's interest over a period of time when their normal marketplace is rapidly changing by the moment. We're going to have to move to a new model.

There's two ways that we can do that. One is super agile methods; the other is by working with our marketplace. Look at brands like Coca-Cola or Daniel Wellington. Daniel Wellington, the startup watch brand, sells $100 million of watches; 99.5% of the content about that brand that lives on Instagram was not created by the brand. 80% of the social content about Coca-Cola, not created by Coca-Cola.

We need to come up with ways to work with our audiences to help create this content and get it out there. If it's not done with them, it's done on them, and no one wants things forced upon them.

ROB: We used to have that ability to force things upon people, more or less, right?

MATHEW: Totally. That was the whole point of the limited media era. It was a monopoly, and we had control. That's why those ideas that we had came about. But those no longer work. New environment, new games.

ROB: It seems like when you think about a big film, the ceiling now is higher than it used to be, but I think the floor is also lower. If I summarize some of what I'm hearing you say, the consumer has a higher ability to say "no" than ever before to a Batman movie – you name it. You can push a Batman movie and people can say, "We don't care." We can say no, the information travels instantly, and people will say "We don't want to see that." Whereas you could've had a good week or month at the box office before. They can just go turn on TikTok instead, thank you very much.

MATHEW: The hobby of hobby, right? How many hours are people spending watching YouTube videos about how to do hobbies and never doing those hobbies? There was a great piece on the radio this weekend about that.

ROB: As you're thinking about the brief or maybe not brief trough that we're in right now, where everybody's cutting back their expectations for the second quarter of the year, and as you're thinking about what will emerge on the other side, whether it's a few weeks or a few months ahead, what do you think – obviously you have this context message, but tactically, what do you see emerging that's going to be the DNA of the strongest products, firms, and teams coming out of where we are?

MATHEW: There's going to be a couple of basic things that people are going to have to have moving forward. One is the brands that have the best communication with their stakeholders and customers right now are going to be positioned to be the best moving forward. The question is, what do we do? If you don't have a daily conversation with people and understand how their lives are changing, how their buying processes are changing, how their needs are changing given the current situation, you won't have the right answer.

To know what to do, you simply have to talk to those people. Whether that's through daily calls, whether that's through weekly calls, you need to have them. Once again, they have to happen across your stakeholders, your partners, your vendors, your agencies that you work with, as well as your customers. You've got to have that information to know what to do and how to respond. So that's going to be a key thing.

The second thing is that we have to realize that even in downturns, there's still a couple of things that we must do. You must have the best internal alignment. You must master internal alignment. There's been a big trend that we've all been working towards removing silos, but still the reality is that there's a lot of companies where silos still exist. This is a massive problem because currently, if you've got different departments talking about different ways of dealing with this scenario, you can imagine how that's going to resonate inside your marketplace. You need to master internal alignment.

Second is excel at stakeholder continuity. Third is we need to continue to invest in strategic efforts. When you look at what happens during downturns and during times of crisis, the brands that rebound the fastest and rebound the highest continue to invest in strategic efforts. That means right now, if you're thinking about, "Should we be changing and investing in new technology to give us new capabilities?", you probably shouldn't put those on the back burner because once we come out of this, those are going to be critical. If you've implemented them and understood them now, you'll be poised to use them best when you can coming out.

The fourth is rapid experimentation. Those companies that are experimenting rapidly with what we should be doing and then rolling those learnings back into their standard programming are going to be succeeding faster than anyone else.

I see it as a combination of those things that we need to be doing to sustain and rebound quickest.

ROB: Perfect. Mathew, very exciting with the book coming out. Very exciting when we let you back outside to go talk to people in public. When people want to find you and learn more about what you have to say and maybe even connect with you on some of these chats, how should they go find you?

MATHEW: I'd say the best place is probably LinkedIn. You can follow me on LinkedIn. I publish a lot of stuff on LinkedIn. And then Twitter. It's @msweezey on Twitter. Those are really my two channels. You can find me there; you can catch up with all my information.

ROB: That's perfect. Go find Mathew. He's a great follow. He's a great person too, so if you get a chance to see him in person, you should definitely get to know him there as well. But you can also catch him online or maybe catch him on a boat. They still letting you out on a boat?

MATHEW: I think, but all the boat ramps are closed.

ROB: [laughs] Tough times. We'll look forward to brighter days, and thank you so much for sharing. I think there's a lot to be bright about right now.

MATHEW: Hey, man, thanks for having me.

ROB: Take care.

Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.