Organisations as Human Learning Systems - A Conversation with Thea Snow and Toby Lowe

In episode 181 with Robert Barnett, Rob and I were discussing the real constraints and difficult conditions teachers find themselves in as they try to prioritise the meaningful learning and growth of their young people. This week, we are taking a broader look at the kinds of institutional structures that might actually help rather than hinder these more generative ways of living and learning - the kinds of institutions suited to the transformative adaptations and systems change that we desperately need. So in this episode I'm really happy to be speaking with Thea Snow and Toby Lowe about taking a Human Learning Systems approach to management and governance of organisations. Thea and Toby in their work at Centre for Public Impact focus primarily on public sector management. However, these principles certainly apply more broadly to institutions in the private and third sectors. This is very exciting work as it feels much more authentically connected to the beautiful and complex realities that we know we live, learn and work in and that we want to prepare our young people to embrace. But we also know that the way we are held accountable for outcomes in our work often feels simplistic and naive and entirely dissociated from these complex realities.
Thea is the Regional Director for Australia and Aotearoa New Zealand at Centre for Public Impact. Thea’s experiences span the public, private and not-for-profit sectors. She has worked as a commercial lawyer, a public servant, and, prior to joining CPI, at the UK’s innovation foundation, Nesta
Toby Lowe is Professor of Public Management at Manchester Metropolitan University and action researcher at Centre for Public Impact. He has also done policy work addressing poverty in neighbourhoods for the Social Exclusion Unit, worked as a public management action researcher developing the Human Learning Systems approach and held the position as Chief Executive of a participatory arts charity in North East England.
You can find links in the show notes to a lot of the documents and sources we talk about in the conversation, especially if you'd like to find out more about implementing a Human Learning Systems approach in your organisation.
Some of Thea’s work includes:
“The (il)logic of legibility – Why governments should stop simplifying complex systems”
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2021/02/12/the-illogic-of-legibility-why-governments-should-stop-simplifying-complex-systems/
“Once upon a bureaucrat: exploring the role of stories in government“
https://thepolicymaker.jmi.org.au/once-upon-a-bureaucrat-exploring-the-role-of-stories-in-government/
“Why evidence should be the servant, not the master, of good policy”
https://apolitical.co/solution-articles/en/Why-evidence-should-be-the-servant-not-the-master-of-good-policy
“Public servants are tired of change-washing — not change”
https://apolitical.co/solution-articles/en/public-servants-are-tired-of-change-washing-not-change
Some of Toby’s work includes:
Human Learning Systems: Public Service for the Real World: https://centreforpublicimpact.org/resource-hub/human-learning-systems-public-service-for-the-real-world/
Harnessing Complexity for Better Outcomes in Public and Non-profit Services: https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/harnessing-complexity-for-better-outcomes-in-public-and-non-profit-services
Human Learning Systems: A practical guide for the curious: https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/assets/pdfs/hls-practical-guide.pdf
Various links from our discussion:
https://www.humanlearning.systems/hls-insights-findings-from-our-research-2024/
https://centreforpublicimpact.org/resource-hub/storytelling-for-systems-change/
https://medium.com/centre-for-public-impact/embracing-ensembles-8e049c40b87f
https://www.woodleigh.vic.edu.au/events-public-calendar/reimagined-conference